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Summer Series - Navigating Business Sustainability in 2024 with Mel Packham · Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós

• 0:00
  Nicky: Hello, beautiful listeners, and welcome back to our mini series where we are reflecting and showcasing the most popular and loved conversations from 2024.
• 0:10
  Nicky: Today we're going to share with you our conversation with Mel Packham, who is all about marketing, branding, building your brand and credibility through ethical brands that are driven by positive impact and giving back to communities, people, the world.
• 0:28
  Nicky: You know really this holistic view of sustainability in business and this conversation was so incredible in terms of really challenging our thinking around what we're already doing and what else we can do to make sure that our business is sustainable for now, for the next couple of years, well into the long term, and also defining what does a sustainable business actually mean, because we already have some unconscious biases around what that means for us and for our business, our team members, the impact that we're making.
• 1:01
  Nicky: So is there another perspective, an expansion on that perspective that we can bring?
• 1:06
  Nicky: So enjoy this conversation and please share with us what have you taken out from this?
• 1:10
  Nicky: We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:11
  Nicky: Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nicky and Ness.
• 1:23
  Ness: We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nicky and I both work and live.
• 1:38
  Nicky: Have you recently considered what a sustainable business really looks like in 2024?
• 1:44
  Nicky: When we're talking sustainable businesses, it goes beyond only considering environmental impact, impact on people.
• 1:51
  Nicky: It extends to the health and wellbeing of our people.
• 1:55
  Nicky: But also beyond that, what are the impacts to a truly sustainable business, not just for today, tomorrow, but 5, 10, 20 years in the future?
• 2:05
  Nicky: It is our strategic, our commercial and our moral responsibility duty to consider these factors and it's exactly why we have Mel Packham join us on today's episode.
• 2:17
  Nicky: Mel is a brand-centered strategist who leverages two decades of marketing experience to guide businesses in finding clarity, making agile decisions and, most importantly, building standout brands that are sustainable and ethical.
• 2:34
  Nicky: We have such a diverse conversation around what this term sustainable business looks like in the current landscape, 2024 and beyond.
• 2:45
  Nicky: What are the things that are impacting, what are the problems that we need to solve on a global and therefore local level, and how can we implement and apply that to the day-to-day workings of your business my business, our businesses Enjoy the conversation as we dive in.
• 3:02
  Nicky: So, mel, I am super excited to have you on today because we have had a couple of conversations behind the scenes when we've gotten together and we have the best conversations around what sustainability looks like in business in 2024.
• 3:18
  Nicky: And what I loved about our combos, and why I was very excited when you agreed to come on the podcast, is that you have really challenged my thinking in certain ways and expanded my thinking.
• 3:29
  Nicky: I think is a really great way to explain it In terms of the sustainability piece, which I know is something that you're really passionate about when we're looking at ethical marketing ethical I can say ethical branding.
• 3:41
  Nicky: So I want to open today asking you to share your thoughts on what does a sustainable business really mean in 2024?
• 3:51
  Mel Packham: This is.
• 3:51
  Mel Packham: I mean, this is the big question, right?
• 3:53
  Mel Packham: So a lot of people think of sustainability as being just about environmental sustainability, and that's not reality.
• 4:01
  Mel Packham: You know, the reality of the bigger picture, the world that we're operating in, that we cannot ignore because we don't operate businesses in a bubble is that there are some serious systemic things going on around us that will impact our business at some point, and so, as savvy business owners, keeping an eye and an ear to the ground on all of that stuff that's going on and helping, you know, shift business models and shift value propositions to align with what the world is shifting to and what it is going to need that's what sustainable business means in 2024 and beyond.
• 4:38
  Mel Packham: The next five years are going to be very challenging for businesses, and small businesses that are sort of trying to play on in business as usual, I think, are going to really struggle, and you know we've seen echoes of that through the last few years, or it's been a few years, it feels like, you know, forever, and also not very long at all.
• 4:56
  Mel Packham: The last four years or so We've seen some impacts of, you know what major disruptive events will have.
• 5:03
  Mel Packham: You know the impact that will have on businesses.
• 5:05
  Mel Packham: That's just a taster, and so I think you know really smart businesses now are kind of going.
• 5:11
  Mel Packham: They're looking at five, 10 years in the future and going what does it really mean to be sustainable and what does growth mean?
• 5:19
  Mel Packham: They're challenging, they're thinking about what growth actually means.
• 5:21
  Mel Packham: And so I love your theme about smart growth because it is anchored in all of those things.
• 5:26
  Mel Packham: It's anchored in, you know, well-being for people and it's anchored in responsible for, you know, for planet.
• 5:32
  Mel Packham: All of those things come to play and so, yeah, I'm fascinated by diving into and all the rabbit holes around what could business look like in a sustainable future, for a livable future?
• 5:45
  Mel Packham: Because that's actually what we're talking about here.
• 5:48
  Ness: Wow, that's got me sitting upright when you mentioned some of the challenges that are coming over the next five years for business, small and large, I imagine, but particularly that's sort of on the smaller end.
• 6:00
  Ness: What are some of those key challenges, mel?
• 6:02
  Mel Packham: Well, I mean some of them we've seen already.
• 6:04
  Mel Packham: So supply chain disruption is going to be huge, and that's as a result of climate impacts, for example.
• 6:10
  Mel Packham: So you know, if somewhere's flooded or there's a boat stuck in a channel somewhere, or a bridge collapses or something you know, we've seen all of that happen in the last couple of years that is going to continue because environmental impacts are going.
• 6:24
  Mel Packham: You know, mother nature's going.
• 6:25
  Mel Packham: I've had enough and this is real, and we're seeing that now.
• 6:29
  Mel Packham: There's massive floods happening in Brazil, there's awful tornadoes happening across the States, there's wildfires.
• 6:34
  Mel Packham: That happens here in Australia as well.
• 6:37
  Mel Packham: That thing disrupts major supply chains, and so that's a reality, you know, and not something that's within our control.
• 6:43
  Mel Packham: So how might we rethink our business model?
• 6:47
  Mel Packham: How might we rethink where we source our?
• 6:50
  Mel Packham: You know where our supply chain base is.
• 6:53
  Mel Packham: Do we localize?
• 6:54
  Mel Packham: Do we collaborate with additional partners internationally to help secure a supply chain?
• 7:00
  Mel Packham: There's lots of things that we can do, but having that reality check, I guess, is the key message here that that stuff isn't far away.
• 7:09
  Mel Packham: We've seen it happen before, we've all been impacted by it before and it's not going away.
• 7:13
  Mel Packham: So I think that's the major one that I can see but also human health impacts.
• 7:19
  Mel Packham: If people are sick and we're seeing that now COVID's back around, we're doing a bird flu Is that going to come?
• 7:26
  Mel Packham: There's lots of that happening that impacts people, and when we lose a third of our workforce to illness, that affects business as usual.
• 7:35
  Mel Packham: So what does that look like in the future?
• 7:37
  Mel Packham: How do we keep our people well?
• 7:39
  Mel Packham: How do we support their health and wellbeing?
• 7:41
  Mel Packham: How do we put structures in place that support that ongoing?
• 7:45
  Mel Packham: Because, yeah, that's not going away either.
• 7:48
  Mel Packham: So there's lots of those kinds of elements interrelated and that's the.
• 7:53
  Mel Packham: I guess the magic and the mystery of it is that it is interrelated, systemic things going on and the smart business owners will sort of start to connect the dots and see where these threads might start to impact, or be thinking ahead and going what if you know?
• 8:08
  Mel Packham: What if this were to happen?
• 8:09
  Mel Packham: And so playing out some scenario planning, which can be a fun exercise If you indulge it.
• 8:15
  Mel Packham: It can be quite enlightening.
• 8:17
  Ness: Well, I'm glad you say that because I think that you know we could come from two different angles on this.
• 8:23
  Ness: We could come from one of fear, that's, doom and gloom.
• 8:26
  Ness: That, you know, is that all sounds really scary and bury our heads in the sand perhaps, or we flip into.
• 8:34
  Ness: I love what you just said.
• 8:35
  Ness: Then you know how could you have fun along the way, how could you make this and it kind of I guess what I hear and what you're saying too perhaps for smaller businesses, you know, as a board director, they're the kinds of strategic conversations you have in the boardroom, right?
• 8:49
  Ness: So we're talking about the future, that.
• 8:51
  Ness: What are the impacts?
• 8:52
  Ness: We have a look at all the different risk scenarios that are out there that could impact the future of the you know not-for-profit or the business that you're a board member on.
• 9:01
  Ness: It's bringing that thinking into a smaller business that isn't set up for a board.
• 9:08
  Ness: But as a business owner and a leadership team, we want to act as the board that steps away from the day-to-day doing and comes out and says actually we've really got to start to consider this for our business and the impact it's going to have.
• 9:21
  Mel Packham: Yeah, absolutely, and that's where the magic magic, I think, is untapped at the moment.
• 9:25
  Mel Packham: So that connects back to people having a sense of purpose and what they're here to do and that, you know, building team culture around that shared purpose and a shared vision.
• 9:35
  Mel Packham: What does the vision of the future look like?
• 9:37
  Mel Packham: What does what could the future look like and what's our role to play in building that future?
• 9:43
  Mel Packham: I think that's where it's exciting and that's where you take the information, which is very heavy going and it's very hard to consume, and the very easy thing to do is to put the head in the sand and to ignore that and continue with business as usual.
• 9:56
  Mel Packham: That's not strategically sound, commercially sound or morally sound.
• 10:01
  Mel Packham: We cannot do that, and I just got goosebumps myself because that's how big this is.
• 10:08
  Mel Packham: We are privileged, and privileged to live in a time where we've got these challenges ahead of us, but we have the tools and capability as people and as teams to help make that reality.
• 10:19
  Mel Packham: So embedding back in purpose and figuring out what that shared vision is key to that.
• 10:25
  Mel Packham: And amongst the team, that's where the brilliance is.
• 10:28
  Mel Packham: Collaborating as a team, where the work happens, not at the board level, that's setting direction.
• 10:34
  Mel Packham: That's great.
• 10:34
  Mel Packham: But there's so much untapped knowledge and skill within teams to unlock, to help build the business resilience and shape what that strategic plan looks like through innovation.
• 10:50
  Mel Packham: There's untapped potential there that I think is really exciting.
• 10:53
  Nicky: I'm just frantically taking notes here, loving this, because my brain is firing in so many different directions around.
• 11:00
  Nicky: You know, what I'm hearing in this is the question to be asking right now is what are the potential long-term problems?
• 11:07
  Nicky: Impacts like taking the time.
• 11:09
  Nicky: And something else that I'm thinking about is we talk a lot about business planning and how that's changed over the years from actually just looking at 90-day sprints, for example.
• 11:18
  Nicky: You know, I remember back in the days in corporate we'd spend bloody months getting together a business plan and then it would change.
• 11:22
  Nicky: So there's this agileness to what is my strategic plan and doing 90-day sprints because it's changed.
• 11:29
  Nicky: But what we also need to overlay with this is that still is great for the day-to-day.
• 11:34
  Nicky: What am I doing for the next 12 months?
• 11:36
  Nicky: And pull back what are the conversations?
• 11:39
  Nicky: Even chunk it up bigger around that five to 10 years and it's that higher level.
• 11:44
  Nicky: Like I'm writing down the different areas because I'm curious when you said it's beyond environmental impact.
• 11:50
  Nicky: You know there's two things here.
• 11:52
  Nicky: I think when we talk sustainable, it's very easy for our mind to go to environment.
• 11:57
  Nicky: Am I using recycled paper?
• 11:59
  Nicky: Oh, side note, I just bought a new printer and it's ink Like I can't remember what they call it.
• 12:04
  Nicky: Anyway, it's more environmentally friendly.
• 12:06
  Nicky: It's easy to go to there.
• 12:07
  Nicky: When we talk about smart growth, we talk about sustainability in business, around empowering your team, having them step up, looking at maximizing opportunities with profit, sales, et cetera.
• 12:19
  Nicky: Smart growth and peak performance.
• 12:21
  Nicky: But actually that's all great.
• 12:23
  Nicky: Those two things are important and, on top of that, supply chain, human health.
• 12:30
  Nicky: Still looking at the classics that we talk about, vision, purpose.
• 12:34
  Nicky: Generational change is another one that I wrote down Because, if we think about, I can never remember the names of the different generations but the younger generations, they want more purpose.
• 12:43
  Nicky: They want to know why am I here?
• 12:45
  Nicky: There's a fulfillment.
• 12:47
  Nicky: They're also changing the way of working in terms of going.
• 12:51
  Nicky: I'm not going to work 80 hours a week and kill myself for this job, and especially if I don't know the purpose.
• 12:56
  Nicky: So generational change is another consideration in terms of holistic, sustainable business and AI and the impact to people, to systems, to economy.
• 13:09
  Nicky: I'm kind of in my mind is there a checklist of these different areas that we need to look at?
• 13:14
  Nicky: And so that's just the things that are happening in my mind, kind of going okay, where can we take this and how do we actually implement this in the business and I love what you said strategic, commercial and moral responsibility.
• 13:28
  Nicky: Looking at these key areas.
• 13:31
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• 13:32
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• 13:39
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• 13:52
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• 13:57
  Nicky: So I guess, hearing back me share with you what I'm sort of thinking, what's missing or what's you know, what would you add to that, what kind of comes up for you as you hear me play that back to you, yeah, I think what comes up for me is again the connectivity of all of those things.
• 14:12
  Mel Packham: So, none of that's happening in isolation.
• 14:15
  Mel Packham: You know, the more AI we start to use, what are the actual benefits on people?
• 14:19
  Mel Packham: Are we freeing up their time?
• 14:21
  Mel Packham: If we are, what are we freeing it up for More work?
• 14:24
  Mel Packham: Do we want to be doing more work?
• 14:26
  Mel Packham: What if we could leverage AI responsibly and sustainably?
• 14:32
  Mel Packham: Because actually there's a massive climate, environmental impact of AI, with the amount of power and energy that it requires?
• 14:38
  Mel Packham: That's another story.
• 14:40
  Mel Packham: System it's all connected.
• 14:43
  Mel Packham: But what if we're freeing up people's time so they're not doing the tasks that a robot can do?
• 14:48
  Mel Packham: What are we freeing it up for?
• 14:49
  Mel Packham: Are we freeing it up so we can pile more stuff on their plate?
• 14:52
  Mel Packham: Or are we freeing it up so we could do a four-day work week and we can therefore support our people's health and wellbeing by having them work less on things that are connected to purpose.
• 15:05
  Mel Packham: They're doing work that's meaningful to them.
• 15:07
  Mel Packham: They know what they're there to do and to make an impact.
• 15:10
  Mel Packham: The business has a shared vision of what it is that they're working towards and are making that impact.
• 15:16
  Mel Packham: What might the world look like if we were all able to free up that little bit of time?
• 15:20
  Mel Packham: So I know it sounds a little Pollyanna, but and you know I've been accused and you know and celebrated for being an idealist and yes, that that's possible, it's within our grasp and we in businesses especially, have the decision-making capability to do that and it's not a new thing.
• 15:38
  Mel Packham: Businesses have been built this way.
• 15:40
  Mel Packham: Businesses have been built as regenerative business, and that's the next level from sustainability is how can we give back as much as we are putting out?
• 15:49
  Mel Packham: And that's where true value propositions come into play.
• 15:52
  Mel Packham: So I think when you say back all of those things, it's all connected and it starts with really understanding that the thing I've been working on for the last 10, almost 10 years is the true vision and true purpose.
• 16:05
  Mel Packham: That's connected.
• 16:06
  Mel Packham: So a lot of company vision is we want to be a $20 million company in the next five years.
• 16:11
  Mel Packham: That is not a vision, that is internally focused.
• 16:14
  Mel Packham: That is a business objective.
• 16:17
  Mel Packham: A vision is you know, who gives a crap is a great example.
• 16:20
  Mel Packham: What would the world look like if people had more access to clean water?
• 16:25
  Mel Packham: And we will give 50% of our profits from day one to these causes?
• 16:30
  Mel Packham: And they have, and they're continuing and they're growing and they're.
• 16:33
  Mel Packham: You know, that's.
• 16:39
  Mel Packham: That is the magic of what problem could we solve.
• 16:41
  Mel Packham: What real world problem could we solve?
• 16:42
  Mel Packham: And here's what we're here to do, and that that permeates through everything.
• 16:45
  Mel Packham: I love that example because their brand personality comes to play.
• 16:48
  Mel Packham: They're a toilet paper brand, they're a commodity, and they can turn toilet paper into a work of art that sits in your bathroom.
• 16:56
  Mel Packham: How dare they and how amazing is that.
• 16:59
  Mel Packham: You know, that's the bold kind of vision stuff that we need more businesses to come out, and people think that they have boring businesses.
• 17:06
  Mel Packham: I always refer to toilet paper as the king of that, or insurance, or you know there's all sorts of things.
• 17:12
  Mel Packham: There is no such thing.
• 17:14
  Mel Packham: It's just the way that you approach it, and I think when you anchor it in something that's really powerful, like that, that's how we can start to make genuine impact, because that otherwise, those, the businesses that are not delivering on a true value proposition, serving a real need in the context of all of the things going on the poly crisis, not just a climate crisis, it's all of them those are the ones that are going to.
• 17:39
  Ness: Are you talking about the B Corp kind of business?
• 17:42
  Ness: They're B Corp, aren't they?
• 17:43
  Ness: That's that sort of philosophy around giving back and yeah, and B Corp is just one label.
• 17:49
  Mel Packham: Right, that's one of the labels.
• 17:50
  Mel Packham: But social enterprise I guess the broad term for that is having a social purpose.
• 17:55
  Mel Packham: I argue all business should have a social purpose or a purpose connected in some way to real world problems.
• 18:06
  Mel Packham: Because we've been operating in the world happily through capitalism thinking everything's dandy and we can extract, and you know, and grow at exponential rates.
• 18:15
  Mel Packham: We live in a world with natural limitations and this is, you know, this is not new thinking.
• 18:21
  Mel Packham: There are limits, there are.
• 18:23
  Mel Packham: There's a limitation on natural resources.
• 18:25
  Mel Packham: The natural resources we've been extracting for years are making us unwell and making the planet unwell.
• 18:31
  Mel Packham: That doesn't seem very strategically or commercially sound to continue to extract said limited resources to do things that aren't actually benefiting human life.
• 18:41
  Mel Packham: Because the output of GDP or the output of exponential profit for what?
• 18:47
  Mel Packham: That was never the purpose of business.
• 18:50
  Mel Packham: The purpose of business is not to make money.
• 18:53
  Mel Packham: That's the fuel that keeps the business going, but it's not the end goal.
• 18:58
  Mel Packham: So just sort of shifting our own thinking about what's the target here, what are we doing?
• 19:04
  Mel Packham: What does that mean for us?
• 19:06
  Mel Packham: What if growth wasn't the goal?
• 19:10
  Mel Packham: Let's be $20 it was.
• 19:12
  Nicky: What if we could change or solve homelessness, or, you know, support marginalized communities or build climate resilience, all of the things wow, oh, I love that because also, so it's actually reframing growth isn't about the target, it could be growth, but it's contributing to these real world problems.
• 19:32
  Nicky: And I also take away from this that it doesn't matter what size of business you are, you know whether you're watching, listening, and I'm loving this for myself.
• 19:41
  Nicky: I'm challenging our, what we're doing in our business, and I love that example with the toilet paper, because I think it could be really easy to go yeah, but we're just this business.
• 19:50
  Nicky: Okay, but that's so true.
• 19:52
  Nicky: Toilet paper, you know, and who doesn't know?
• 19:55
  Nicky: Who gives a crap if you don't google it, because you know you're missing out on really good toilet paper and making an impact on the world, like you know, and then they have a lot of fun and awesome emails yes, awesome emails totally engaged people, consumers supporting a cause, 50% of profits from day one.
• 20:15
  Mel Packham: They weren't necessarily financially able, but they have done that.
• 20:19
  Mel Packham: So you're right, it doesn't have to be when we get to X size or yeah.
• 20:24
  Nicky: And so challenging.
• 20:25
  Nicky: What are we doing now?
• 20:27
  Nicky: Because I actually feel like there's this returning back to almost returning, I don't know why.
• 20:33
  Nicky: That's sort of how I'm feeling now because I feel, like you know, we have an opportunity as business owners or leaders to have this real world impact and to actually stop and pause and go.
• 20:44
  Nicky: The money's almost like the side effect of it.
• 20:47
  Nicky: If we're focusing on what we're here to achieve an impact and I guess the other thing, it can be real world impact, but it doesn't have to be huge.
• 20:56
  Nicky: Mel, I'm curious to get your thoughts because I really want this to be accessible to all types of thinking people, businesses as they're listening to this.
• 21:03
  Nicky: You can actually still make a real world impact and you don't have to give 50% of profit to a third world country to help with toilets and sanitization, et cetera, like you can start with something smaller than that.
• 21:15
  Nicky: But this is about challenging.
• 21:17
  Nicky: Are you looking at these different key areas for future success, five to 10 to 20 years in the future?
• 21:22
  Nicky: And what are you really doing this for?
• 21:25
  Nicky: Cause it ain't just about money and we talk about this all the time the money, like if you're not inspired by the money, which even people who are.
• 21:31
  Nicky: When they hit the money, oftentimes they aren't, so it's not the thing.
• 21:35
  Nicky: And also, when it's about money, it's never about the money, it's about what are we going to do with that money.
• 21:39
  Nicky: So let's kind of break that away and go okay.
• 21:43
  Nicky: If it's not the money, what for?
• 21:45
  Nicky: What are we here for?
• 21:47
  Nicky: What is that difference?
• 21:48
  Nicky: Do you have any tips on where to start with this?
• 21:51
  Nicky: So you talked about, you know, insurance, the toilet paper and oh, but my vision it's not.
• 21:55
  Nicky: I'm just a boring business.
• 21:57
  Nicky: Maybe what's a good question to ask ourselves?
• 21:59
  Nicky: Or where do we start with this?
• 22:01
  Nicky: So that it's it feels achievable?
• 22:03
  Mel Packham: Well, I've worked with so many businesses on exactly this.
• 22:06
  Mel Packham: You start with, yeah, figuring out what is what's your purpose and what is your vision of a future.
• 22:11
  Mel Packham: And once you get people talking about you know answering those questions, then the innovation, the ideas start to come in.
• 22:21
  Mel Packham: Oh, if that's our vision and this is what we do now, how can we get there?
• 22:23
  Mel Packham: And we may never get there.
• 22:25
  Mel Packham: That's the real caveat here.
• 22:26
  Mel Packham: We may never see a world where everyone has access to clean water.
• 22:30
  Mel Packham: We may never solve world hunger.
• 22:32
  Mel Packham: We may never solve poverty.
• 22:34
  Mel Packham: But there are problems.
• 22:36
  Mel Packham: But don't stop you on the journey to get there and you know, for smaller businesses going whoa, like there's no way we can solve world hunger Of course not.
• 22:44
  Mel Packham: But you might be able to support, you know, your local community in some way, and that's the other.
• 22:49
  Mel Packham: That's the other challenge, I guess, to businesses is what you know think globally, act locally, which is such a trope, but very much you know, if we are in communities, how are we connecting with those communities and stakeholders there?
• 23:03
  Mel Packham: How are we, you know, fostering resilience there?
• 23:05
  Mel Packham: There's obviously workforce implications, but well-being implications.
• 23:09
  Mel Packham: You know the environmental impact of, you know, the wastewater from our factory, for example.
• 23:15
  Mel Packham: What is that doing to our community and how does that impact?
• 23:18
  Mel Packham: So there's things locally that we can be thinking about.
• 23:21
  Mel Packham: But imagine, yeah, it doesn't have to be massive.
• 23:23
  Mel Packham: But imagine if the goal for year one was support five Indigenous students to, you know, towards greater literacy results.
• 23:31
  Mel Packham: Or, you know, support 10 families fleeing from domestic violence.
• 23:35
  Mel Packham: Like there are things that we can be doing that make massive impact.
• 23:39
  Mel Packham: Again, just got goosebumps, because those are the things that really matter.
• 23:42
  Mel Packham: And then that expands and suddenly, when you're connecting to real, you can see the real impacts.
• 23:48
  Mel Packham: That's also very fulfilling and engaging for people.
• 23:50
  Mel Packham: So not doing it the caveat here not doing it in an impact washing-y, greenwashing-y way, because if it's not actually linked to purpose it's going to fall over pretty quickly.
• 24:03
  Mel Packham: You know it's not going to stick around.
• 24:04
  Mel Packham: So you know, connecting it in a genuine way, I think, is the challenge there.
• 24:09
  Nicky: And by greenwashing, so not doing it for the marketing gig you know like.
• 24:14
  Nicky: Think about the real purpose behind it.
• 24:17
  Mel Packham: Absolutely.
• 24:17
  Mel Packham: I always come back to that quote and I don't know who said it.
• 24:20
  Mel Packham: But you know, integrity is what you do when people aren't watching, even though nobody's looking.
• 24:25
  Mel Packham: You know what are we doing day to day, even though we're not going to get accolade, or you know a shout out in the news media, though we're not going to get accolade, or you know a shout out in the in news media, what are we doing?
• 24:33
  Mel Packham: That's?
• 24:34
  Mel Packham: You know true to self and self in the.
• 24:37
  Mel Packham: You know the company, the brand that keeps us going and you know that that doesn't matter, which we still made an impact and we feel good.
• 24:46
  Nicky: I also love how you said what's our vision and what's what's our future.
• 24:49
  Nicky: So actually, that's something I definitely am going to start applying straight away, even with our conversations, ness, and with clients.
• 24:56
  Nicky: Not just what's it right now and again, that distinction between the two layers of 12-month goals, 90-day sprints and the bigger picture through these different kind of areas and categories that I've been frantically writing notes on.
• 25:19
  Ness: I look forward to those discussions.
• 25:20
  Ness: It's really.
• 25:20
  Ness: It really is getting it's kind of out of the box thinking.
• 25:21
  Ness: It's really stepping aside and bringing in a different aspect to smart growth in business, which I love this conversation for that, because all the things we talk about are really important in relation to growing your business in a way that's smart for you and for your team and all of that kind of thing.
• 25:36
  Ness: But it's also then with the profits that you make within your business.
• 25:40
  Ness: What impact do you want to have with that?
• 25:43
  Ness: Because it always astounds me.
• 25:45
  Ness: Around you hear people who have billions of dollars and you go what do?
• 25:50
  Ness: they do with all that.
• 25:51
  Ness: I was listening to a podcast and they said you know one?
• 25:53
  Ness: It was a divorce lawyer one of his clients had.
• 25:56
  Ness: You know his turnover in a year was more than the GDP of some countries.
• 26:02
  Mel Packham: It's like how this world's crazy yeah, and we let it get to that point where people that could happen at an individual level, yeah, and that you know, and similarly you know there are very few companies that are kind of ruling the world right now.
• 26:19
  Mel Packham: So, yeah, we let that happen with the system that supports rampant growth, extraction, consumption, so that's the other, that's the thing that comes up for me out of your reflections just then was around the consumption element, and you know what do we do?
• 26:36
  Mel Packham: What do we do with this?
• 26:37
  Mel Packham: It's like get more, what if we got less, what if that's not the goal.
• 26:42
  Mel Packham: And that was okay, and you know that there was a real strong, you know, rationale for us all to be living a better life.
• 26:55
  Ness: It's just.
• 26:55
  Ness: It's such a beautiful topic to be talking about.
• 26:56
  Ness: I feel like we'd talk forever about it.
• 26:58
  Ness: Vicky, did you have anything to add before?
• 27:00
  Ness: Well, thanks, I'm going to ask you instead of starting to wrap up, oh my gosh.
• 27:05
  Nicky: Well, I think that the final thing potentially maybe I'll say more after this, I don't know but is what's coming up for me as well is this slow, this yearning for slow living, so this consumption, this fast pace?
• 27:18
  Nicky: We live in such a fast pace with technology, with all the things that are happening around us, and I really hope that a message that people are taking away, and that I certainly am taking away, is it's okay to go a bit slower or and that whole slow, go slower to speed up or to do less.
• 27:36
  Nicky: You know the conversation you said around AI, having AI to support your people to be able to do four day work weeks.
• 27:43
  Nicky: It doesn't necessarily mean job cuts, for example, like how can you implement and use these tools so that you can be even more profitable business, keep your people, support your people and give them a better way of living.
• 27:55
  Nicky: Going back to the pace of space, which, again Donovan George we reference her a lot so really challenge our thinking around not having to do more with less.
• 28:07
  Nicky: But actually how can we be smarter with the output, the outcome that we're getting with doing less?
• 28:13
  Ness: Absolutely, and I think, on that note I'm going to throw to you now, mel, and we always end on an actionable action, and I feel like we've covered so many various conversations and topics in this.
• 28:25
  Ness: But if somebody is really inspired by this conversation today to do things a little bit differently, what would you suggest in the next 24 hours would be a great action for them to take.
• 28:37
  Mel Packham: Do you know what I'm going to go straight for the heartstrings here and go.
• 28:42
  Mel Packham: Is this a personal reflection exercise?
• 28:45
  Mel Packham: What will you tell your grandchildren or your grandnieces and nephews or the next generation when they ask you what you did when you knew all of this was coming?
• 28:56
  Mel Packham: Oh, goosebumps.
• 28:57
  Mel Packham: And then, if that doesn't trigger something like I'm trying to reach straight for the humanity here, because this is what we need to do more of.
• 29:07
  Mel Packham: Business is not a separate entity.
• 29:10
  Mel Packham: The economy is not separate from humanity.
• 29:12
  Mel Packham: It is supposed to serve life.
• 29:14
  Mel Packham: And so if we answer our question deep in humanity, are we okay with continuing on as we have and with the pace that we have, or are we not okay with that?
• 29:25
  Mel Packham: And if the answer is I'm not okay with it, what am I going to do about it?
• 29:28
  Mel Packham: What are the things I can do?
• 29:29
  Mel Packham: And there's lots and small things like we've talked a lot about, but just taking time and creating some space to have those deep conversations now, urgently, please.
• 29:41
  Nicky: I hear the urgency.
• 29:42
  Nicky: If you're looking for someone to have them with, all of Mel's details are in the show note.
• 29:47
  Nicky: But where's the best place for them to come?
• 29:48
  Nicky: And friendly stalk you, Ness, I know you, but Mel.
• 29:57
  Mel Packham: They can definitely come and stalk me on LinkedIn.
• 29:58
  Mel Packham: That's where I'm spending a lot of my time and I'm happy to have conversations there too.
• 30:00
  Mel Packham: Friendly stalk people.
• 30:01
  Ness: Friendly.
• 30:02
  Ness: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 30:04
  Ness: It's been a fabulous conversation today and I love your takeaway.
• 30:09
  Ness: Actionable action that's really, yeah, giving me chills.
• 30:12
  Ness: So you know what Nicky and I'll be talking about at our next weekly meeting.
• 30:16
  Ness: Thank you again.
• 30:18
  Ness: Have a beautiful week, people, and we'll talk to you next week.
• 30:21
  Ness: See you later.
• 30:21
  Ness: Thanks for listening to today's ep.
• 30:25
  Ness: If you loved what you heard, connect with us over on LinkedIn and let's continue the conversation over there.
• 30:31
  Ness: Did you hear?
• 30:32
  Ness: You can now buy our book Healthy Hustle the New Blueprint to Thrive in Business and Life at healthyhustlecomau.
• 30:40
  Ness: Want us to speak to your team or run a workshop on healthy hustle in your workplace?
• 30:46
  Ness: Send us an email or go old school and give us a call to discuss.
• 30:50
  Ness: Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and life.