Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "Gaza 3.0" with Yaakov Katz

Transcript

"Gaza 3.0" with Yaakov Katz · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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  Get a humans, welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas.
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  It is October 7th, two years since the Hamas attack on Israel, and many podcasts will
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  be appearing in your feed, revisiting the horrors of that day, talking about the details
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  of the Gaza war, where do we go from here?
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  I wanted instead to ask a dangerous question.
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  Is it possible that the past two years of war in Gaza, horrendous as they have been,
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  will ultimately lead to peace in the Middle East?
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  The best person to ask that of is a man who's just written a book about Israel's failures
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  on October 7th, and knows the country and its relationship to the rest of the world better
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  than almost anyone.
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  He's the former editor-in-chief of the Jerusalem Post, before that he was a military reporter
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  for the Jerusalem Post for more than 10 years in between.
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  He also served as a senior policy adviser to Nufthali Bennett, right wing Israeli politician.
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  The Jerusalem Post is a center-right publication, just to give you some context of where Yakov
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  is coming from.
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  His book is called, While Israel Slept, How Hamas Surprised the Most Powerful Military
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  in the Middle East, and while we begin by talking about the military failures on that dreadful
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  day.
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  Then with this hopefully I think somewhat optimistic vision of a way in which the lives of Israelis
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  and Palestinians of Jews and Arabs right across the Middle East and indeed the diaspora
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  could be ultimately enhanced by the horrors of the current conflict.
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  Our sympathies go out to all Israelis on this day, our sympathies go out to all Gazans on
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  this day.
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  Please enjoy the one and only Yakov cats.
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  Prior to October 7th I would have just thought that if there were as a breach of this
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  other border into Israel that there would be machine guns mounted on turrets that were
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  operated from somewhere else in Israel that would mow down terrorists and if that failed
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  there'd be helicopter gunships five minutes away that could be scrambled and they'd just
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  come and blow people from out of the sky.
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  Why weren't there?
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  I mean that question is essentially the question that still today two years later it generates
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  so much mystery and intrigue and even I'll say Josh even conspiracy theories like people
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  are it doesn't make sense you know so when things don't make sense and there's no rational
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  explanation people have to say there was someone on the inside they they they someone shut
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  down the machines or whatever.
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  I mean there's no evidence to point to that and I have no reason to believe that was
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  the case it was something simpler unfortunately and more tragic and that was that we thought
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  that we were impenetrable we thought that the Gaza border was a barrier that could not
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  be crossed above ground or below ground we thought that the forces that were deployed along
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  the border could stop any potential invasion that would come because we would have intelligence
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  about it and we could talk about what was the intelligence going into that morning of
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  October 7th and we thought that forces could scramble there but what Hamas did in a sophisticated
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  way but also in a unsophisticated way was they learned how we respond and how the military
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  is deployed and what it does in the event of an attack and what they did very smartly that
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  morning was they fired hundreds if not thousands of rockets right away and what that did is it
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  it right away triggered the immediate instinct of all military forces along the border as well as
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  every Israeli who came in under that rocket fire you hunker down you go into your safe space
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  and under the cover of that rocket fire very small teams dashed to the border breached it broke
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  through and right away cut communications and the eyes and ears essentially of all the forces
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  that were in those front line positions and what that did is it created it the chaos and that chaos
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  stayed with the Israeli military for the most part of that day until it was finally able to regain
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  control of the the border so those initial volleys of rockets you suggesting that they were a distraction
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  rather than have much military use oh 100% the rockets had no real uh they weren't effective they
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  didn't do anything they didn't really hit targets they were meant to achieve one thing and one thing
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  only and that was to create the chaos and so the confusion and it succeeded if you think about some
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  of those videos that later came out first of all you see from the GoPro cameras of Hamas members
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  those initial teams that dashed to the border you see them riding on their motorbikes up to the
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  fence with rockets flying over their heads right you also see in the videos they came out of some
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  of the front line uh IDF positions one very heartbreaking video is the one from the Nahal O's outpost which
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  is where the female spotters surveillance soldiers were were were stations and they were the ones
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  watching the border essentially and you see them enter into an area with concrete slabs on on
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  all four sides with the concrete roof that's the area they're supposed to go into in the event of
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  rocket fire right so they understood they being Hamas that if they fire a very heavy barrage it will
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  automatically get everybody to go into the safe zone they'll be off the cameras they'll be off
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  those remote control turret guns that you mentioned and they'll be able to make that mad dash to the
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  border and by the way you know I'll just I'll I'll go back but also fast forward at the same time
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  at 6.29 in the morning when that volley of rockets happened the head of the Shen Betz the head of
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  the Israel security agency the intelligence agency responsible for Gaza calls up the chief of staff
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  of the Israeli military and says to him that they're going to be kidnapping people this is not
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  just any other rocket fire that's coming it that has to do with what happened throughout the night
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  but that rocket fire was clear already in that initial moment to some of the players involved
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  this is something much more than just rockets right and the tragedy that you were talking about with
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  those spotters is that once they were then hiding in those concrete bunkers which is where you go
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  to protect yourself from the rockets they were sitting ducks for the for the fighters who then came
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  in and were able to either take them hostage or execute them all in cold blood these were 19 20-year-old
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  girls many of whom had Palestinian friends and uh yeah anyway so but we we know that history I
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  still don't understand and you were the military reporter for the Jerusalem post for over a decade
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  why there wouldn't be a contingency plan in place if this ever happened like you've got a
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  jihadist death cult on your doorstep you talk a big game about being super sophisticated when
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  you're a country that wants to be super sophisticated you clearly are in terms of the
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  page your campaign against his bowler or you know whatever it might be or iron dome or the strikes
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  on Iran and setting aside conspiracy theories because this isn't what I'm pointing at I'm just
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  literally genuinely a little bit baffled when you were a military reporter before October 7th and
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  then the editor were you aware that the southern border was relatively unprotected like were
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  were there people in the military who were saying you know we should probably have several liars
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  here not just one you know if I make it personal for a moment if we had spoken on October 6th I
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  would have told you everything's okay and that's the craziness of this reality is because and that's
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  often why people have asked me why do I see we failed or you know because I really genuinely look
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  at it as a we it's it's a national failure on every level there there's the political echelon
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  that failed with the policies there's the military intelligence folks there's the soldiers
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  but I also think even as a journalist it's someone who you know yeah I was in those briefings
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  I met with the chief of staff of the IDF just a few months before October 7th where we had a
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  briefing of three hours all the different fronts that Israel faces Iran his bala American
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  U.S.-Israel military alliance what's going on in the West Bank and then we kind of get to
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  guys and it's like yeah Hamas doesn't want war they're deterred they're still getting the cash
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  that they want from the Qataris everything's okay and we got it under control and it was kind of
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  like okay move on to the next thing that was the perception so when we think about how this happened
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  it was really there I think you hit the nail on the head when you live alongside because that's
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  the fairytale we told ourselves a fairytale that we could somehow live and be neighbors with the
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  genocidal death cult as you called it and we could tell ourselves death cult but not as
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  genocidal as well yeah yeah I called the genocidal death cult you called it the jihadists whatever
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  it is a death cult and we could tell ourselves they don't want to kill us they just want money
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  they want you know economic prosperity I mean I'm think about this for a second yeah sorry
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  you go ahead think about this for a second Josh and this this is this is I think just tells the
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  whole story if I told you today we're gonna end the war now and every month we're gonna ask the
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  Qataris to transfer 30 million dollars in cash to Hamas to buy us quiet you would say Yaku
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  you should be institutionalized that sounds insane that is what the Israeli policy was and that
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  is what we did for five years five years so I mean and now we look back and we see how did we ever
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  believe that that was possible and and and let me let me again but even if it was possible you still
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  want a contingency this is what's so crazy about it to me like if New Zealand if New Zealand tried to
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  invade Australia Australia would be prepared and there are closest ally if Canada tried to invade
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  the United States they would not be able to do it just because you take precaution it's right
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  I mean and these are these are the closest I had you know you're right and you had
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  three layers that were meant to prevent this from happening layer number one is intelligence
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  we know that throughout the night between October six and October seventh and we detail
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  you're going to great detail in the book my my co-author my good friend Amir and I detailing
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  what is what happened what alarm bells were going off there was the SIM card suddenly a hundred
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  Israeli SIM cards go live in Gaza either meaning that there's a hundred Israelis in Gaza or that
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  Palestinians have switched their SIM cards and the only reason they would do that is because they
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  want to come into Israel they want to still have communications you had evidence and visual
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  intelligence of them uncovering rocket launchers you saw them preparing underground bunkers for
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  their top commanders all that was known and there were debates all throughout the night is the
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  so drill is this an attack that was failure one the misunderstanding of the intelligence thinking
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  more leaning towards a drill as opposed to an attack failure two the barrier this is supposed
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  to be the most sophisticated barrier in the world makes the DMZ between south and north Korea
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  look like a you know a playground this is has multi layers obviously not obviously not electronic
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  fence by the way go back to twenty fourteen when Hamas starts popping out of tunnels inside
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  Israel Israel says okay we got to deal with this they dig an underground wall and they build a wall
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  down to the aquifer then they create a system to detect tunnels when they're being dug where they're
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  being dug and even how they're being dug you know many people crossed into Israel on October seventh
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  and tunnel zero so we thought we had a barrier that no one could cross that was a fairy tale too
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  and they they blew up the barrier just by blowing it up with ball they under the cover of the
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  rockets they dashed to the border they blew holes in the border they got through they cut the
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  communications they cut the cables they cut everything and then we didn't see and then they
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  made even bigger holes at the end of the day sixty plus different entry points along the barrier
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  on that day but three the third line of defense are the soldiers who are there I mean this is it
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  you know Israel's not like you know we know Hamas is there we fought rounds of violence we fought
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  wars with Hamas every two years pretty much since we pulled out of Gaza in 2005 where our head
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  is not buried in the sand we know that we have an enemy there but we thought that the soldiers
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  there were enough to stop and repel an attack they were enough to repel small attack not when
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  you have thousands of people who are crossing the border all those three collapsed immediately in
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  that morning and and so it wasn't that there wasn't a contingency plan it was that all the
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  all the layers of defense collapsed and then the contingency plan which is like you said send the
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  gunships put two Apache helicopters above the border and just mow down anyone who tries to cross
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  in I mean you know shouldn't that be simple and I'm we're talking to pilots who that morning are
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  scrambled to their squadrons and where they being sent this when I heard this for the first time
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  blew my mind they're being sent off to the Mediterranean to protect our gas rigs some of them
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  because they thought that you know if there's rockets they might be fired also at the gas rigs
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  which is a strategic asset 100 percent you need to put them on the border and there was just
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  complete chaos confusion and blindness what do you make of the criticism that too many of
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  Israel's military assets were focused on Lebanon, Hezbollah, the West Bank, policing settlements
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  and so on and that distracted Israel from the real game. I mean listen his belaz always was always
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  up until October 7th was the primary strategic threat was the threat that Israel perceived if you
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  look at the borders at least obviously run on the horizon but if you look at our border threats
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  his belaz perceived to be the much bigger one but there's no question that we were also allocating
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  as a military a lot of our assets to and soldiers and battalions to the West Bank to police things
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  that were happening there you know what was the distraction I don't think it was more of a
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  distraction than the usual there were some claims that there was a certain member of the
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  Knesset of the Israeli parliament who was who was set up an illegal outpost in the West Bank and
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  as a result Israel had to shift resources from the Gaza border to the West Bank it was very
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  minimal in the terms of allocation that wasn't what what changed the the equation or the dynamic
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  of what was happening that morning and yet the government that presided over that is still in power
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  and the prime minister is still in power and whatever calls there have been for accountability
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  have presumably gone nowhere how do you pull off that move of political jiu jitsu it really is one
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  you'd be going baby na niahu I suppose if you are beeping to tell you how you pull off
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  the impossible I mean listen this is really in my opinion the most disturbing element of of what's
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  happened I mean you know 1200 people massacred on a single day the most Jews killed on a single day
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  since the Holocaust right um Israel as a country established to prevent the Holocaust from happening
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  and the government that was in was in power the government that presided over this the government
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  that set the policies that led to it the government that ripped the country apart in the year
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  proceeding with the jiu jitsu reform which saw hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets
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  and really an unprecedented division within Israeli society how is this government still in power
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  where is the accountability and by the way when you look at what happened in the military and in
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  the shin bet they've all been purged all those top guys are gone the chief of staff that had
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  the shin bet the deputy chief of staff that had the southern command that had intelligence gone
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  but in the military not in the government sorry not a single minister not a single minister has
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  resigned which is ridiculous because we live you know Israel's a democracy where the military is
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  under civilian control so ultimately the box stops with the executive not with generals you would
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  think and if you by the way if you go back in time and listen to Benjamin Netanyahu's own speeches
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  in the aftermath of the second lebanon war in 2006 when he was in the opposition in the
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  Houdolmert was in the prime minister a war that was 34 days not two years a war that cost I think
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  220 soldiers around and not 900 plus soldiers not to mention the 1200 killed on October 7th he
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  demanded that he stepped down I mean you know the hypocrisy just screams to the heavens but the
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  the the accountability here we have a serious flaw in our country and it pains me greatly we we
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  we don't you know you know Josh you know there's not even a word people often don't know this
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  there's not a word for accountability in Hebrew there's no word for accountability in Hebrew
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  and we so we don't even you know you don't even have a way as he said might find that out
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  there'll be a lot of Candace Owens you know videos about how Jews don't
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  Jews don't understand account of yeah Jews have Jews are just slithery you know they always want
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  to weasel out of everything exactly no but it's I mean it's disturbing and I the fact that two
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  years into this we still don't have a commission of inquiry you know the book I think I think the
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  book is good we wrote the book out of a real sense of of urgency and and a need to try to understand
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  and and figure out what happened mostly because we wanted to know what happened but also because
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  we genuinely believed that you need to to prevent the next time you need to learn what happened
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  but the fact that the government hasn't established a commission of inquiry two years into this
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  the greatest disaster since not since we were established as a state I mean is absurd and can
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  the opposition not force that like does a does Israel have an equivalent of what we would have in
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  Australia or the UK which would be called a royal commission or in the United States like
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  non-level commission of inquiry right and and can parliament not force that on the Prime
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  Minister or do they just not have the numbers or what you need the numbers and they don't have the
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  numbers exactly amazing you have to remember one of the problems with these let's not price it's
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  this is the Israeli system you basically have a 120 seat parliament right you have
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  10 seats that are always going to be Arab seats and then the rest split up between right and left
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  so you have essentially the moment that you have the majority on the right it's it's pretty much
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  game over the Arabs could go we'll never really go with the right but right now you have a situation
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  that the connect the Benjamin Netanyahu's majority is 65 66 or something like that against and by
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  the way there's no interest in anyone who's in the government to establish a commission of inquiry
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  of course right so and just to clarify pardon my ignorance but is it a single chamber can I set
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  is the yes single chamber okay so there's not even a senator that can do an inquiry whereas
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  here are in the states we would have that what we have to wait for I think is unfortunately
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  we'll have to wait for when there will be an election hoping pray that there will be a new
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  government that will be elected and that this government will do right with the Israeli people
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  and by the way it's not even I mean I think about my children and one day hopefully my grandchildren
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  I mean it's about it's it's about them it's about the future generations of this country we need
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  to learn what happened so we so it doesn't happen again at you mentioned the hypocrisy being
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  staggering the other glaring hypocrisy that people around the world have felt increasingly over
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  the past two years is the pain and suffering of October 7th being used as a justification for
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  what's going on in Gaza still to this day and let's ignore for a moment the types of people who were
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  protesting in the streets on October 8th before Israel had even done anything you know condemning
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  Israel and implicitly sort of siding with the terrorists just talking about people like myself who
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  you know Jews around the world secular people in western countries who are instinctively inclined
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  to be sympathetic towards Israel who have been bashed and beaten into eating their words over the
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  past of the past two years because of the intensity of the campaign what is the mood currently if
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  it's possible to summarize in Israel about the duration and well death toll of this war you might
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  not like my answer but and I'm not sure that many people like my answer but but here it is first of
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  all the mood here is that this war has gone on for too long and Israelis by the vast majority want
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  this war to be over we're I mean we're recording this after just a few days after Donald Trump right
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  had rolled out his plan to potentially end the war we're still waiting to see what's going to happen
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  but the vast majority is going to swoop in and say yes because he's got such a great track record
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  of leaving a sterling and also I mean you know just on Tony Blair like why do you want to get involved
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  he's going to be the mayor of Gaza for the next one yeah I mean yeah I don't think you
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  could pay me enough for that but anyhow the the the vast majority of Israelis what would say
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  grab this plan I mean let's let's just get this war over with already bring us back the hostages
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  even if it means the Hamas remains somehow in power in Gaza we want this over but the other side
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  is that and this is this I think you might not like is that Israelis for the most part
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  they don't see the images that you're seeing they don't see what you're watching in Australia
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  they don't see what people are watching in the United States or in the UK or anywhere else in the
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  world we don't see the destruction and devastation in the same way because Israelis are still
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  very much focused and you could say this is a flaw or this is but this is I just will describe
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  the realities I see it Israelis are very much focused still on their pain and their suffering
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  and and and just as an illustration I could talk about my own family I got four kids 22
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  down to 13 they are the number of people they know who have been killed in this war is astonishing
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  I mean my two older daughters from their youth group a number I'm not at least I can count on
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  two hands a number of people that they know funerals that they've been to my younger daughter you're
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  talking about soldiers in the war are you talking about soldiers civilians on the seventh yeah
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  soldiers and civilians the number the people that they know who teachers husbands of teachers
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  rabbi from my son's school two hostages that we knew on day one just from our own circles right
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  and we're just one family and this is every Israeli family so the the the the story of
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  October seven still for Israelis is very raw and very real and that trauma still lives as long
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  as the hostages are in Gaza and therefore it's difficult not to make it right or wrong I think it's
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  wrong for example I think that we should be more aware of what's happening in Gaza I think we need
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  to because even if we're right and we could talk about whether we're right in the way we're fighting
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  we're wrong in the way we're fighting that's a separate conversation but even if we are right we
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  have to recognize the tragedy and the suffering on the other side because we need to know the
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  full dimensions of what conflict leads to so we could we're right and I think for example we were
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  definitely right to respond the way we did I think we're right in the way we're fighting I think
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  that for the most part the the the tragedy of Gaza is on the is the responsibility and the blame
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  of Hamas but we should also know that this is how the world perceives us this is what's happening
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  around the world this is what's happening in Gaza and it should make us should be another one of
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  those considerations that we take into account as a people when we try to hold our government accountable
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  and consider whether they're making the right decisions and prolonging the war and when you say
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  you think we're right I was having dinner with a friend of mine the other night and October 7th
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  came up and he said I mean he's not Jewish he just said yeah October 7th was terrible and I'm sure
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  that lots of Israelis are really hurt by it and because I was saying you know there's not a person
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  in Israel who's not touched by this and he said but every day is October 7th in Gaza is there a
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  person in Gaza who's not touched by this so I don't think every day is in Gaza is October 7th I
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  think every day in Gaza is a war and it's the war that was brought on by the attack on October 7
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  I mean I think we we have to break down for a moment what's happening right and and and I'll
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  and I'll say that the current operation in Gaza which is controversial the one that's going on
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  as we speak in Gaza city is controversial because we have disagreements within our own government
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  the military echelon and it's no secret has said look we don't need this operation Hamas is already
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  degraded it's already been beaten militarily why are we going into Gaza the government will tell
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  you that we need this four military pressure on Hamas because without military pressure there's
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  no chance the Hamas agrees to end the war and release the hostages but we have to remember what
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  Hamas did and I'm not gonna I'm not talking about October 7th I mean that was the the attack the
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  triggered the war Hamas built in Gaza a network of tunnels that was the New York subway in the
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  London underground put together under all of the buildings all of the hospitals all of the schools
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  all of the mosques you name it now we have a situation that when someone is firing a rocket
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  from a the third floor of an apartment building or the second floor of a hospital or from the
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  school yard of a you and school you have to ask yourself a question can you attack that or can
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  you know right now there's there's rules of war here right there's is it civilian target becomes
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  a military target that's clear then you get into questions of proportion right okay you can
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  attack it but if you're going to kill one bad guy and kill a hundred civilians is that proportional
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  or is that not is that the answer now there's no scientific answer here and this is where things
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  get foggy what I look at at the end is I look at how Hamas created this how any country needs to
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  be able to act in self defense how it's a tragedy how Israel has invested great resources in leaflets
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  in robocalls to cell phones and calling up buildings and the residents in saying leave those buildings
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  before we attack unprecedented in military conflict but I also look at one other thing
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  and started to drag on but I just think this is important if we listen to if we take the Hamas number
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  right we're used to hearing in the media something called the Gaza health ministry it's essentially
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  the Hamas health ministry and I think Josh you know that no media in the world would ever quote the
• 26:50
  al-Qaeda health ministry would be ISIS health ministry but I say put that aside maybe I'll just
• 26:55
  hear a maybe I'll just hear right we'll give them that I say forget that for a moment I'll take
• 27:00
  their number they say it's about sixty two sixty three thousand right now people who have been
• 27:04
  killed and we know I mean listen many many many women children men have been killed in this war
• 27:11
  innocent civilians have been killed but if I take their number and again there's no reason
• 27:16
  for me to believe a terrorist organization like Hamas but I say take it I want to also take the
• 27:21
  Israeli number and the Israeli number is that twenty thousand because they don't distinguish between
• 27:25
  combatants and civilians twenty thousand Hamas don't correct come on the Gaza health ministry
• 27:31
  Hamas doesn't but Israel says out of the sixty thousand twenty thousand about our bad guys these are
• 27:37
  the terrorists now every war has what's called a combatant civilian ratio and I don't want to
• 27:42
  sound cold and as if you know just make this numbers but that's what we have to talk about
• 27:47
  and again every loss of civilian life is a tragedy but if you look at the combatant civilian
• 27:52
  ratio in this war what we're looking at is for every combatant and this is an every war for
• 27:57
  every combatant how many civilians are killed so we have one combatant three okay in the worst
• 28:04
  case we're talking about three so that means that Israel for every combatant killed either two
• 28:09
  or three civilians are being killed now go ask the United Nations what happened in wars that Australia
• 28:14
  has participated in Afghanistan and Iraq NATO wars right wars that of course America has led I'm
• 28:21
  not even going back to world war two which is of course absurd what happened there in the numbers
• 28:26
  we're talking about an average of one to six and sometimes one to nine when we get into urban
• 28:30
  settings is Gaza's the most densely urban populated area in the world now does Israel make mistakes
• 28:37
  100% is every strike clean and precise and accurate and done the right way no because this is war
• 28:44
  it sucks but when I look at those numbers I say in myself one second it's this is not only is this
• 28:50
  not genocide not only is this not you know intentional to kill civilians this is probably one of the
• 28:55
  most accurate precise conflicts fought in the last hundred years right so if we even want to talk
• 29:02
  about the numbers and again it makes it sound very cold-hearted but this is actually probably
• 29:09
  the best ever that we've seen in military conflict I mean I'm fine with cold numbers I think it's
• 29:14
  it's only rational rational to talk about cold numbers I think the the problem that people have is
• 29:18
  that there's a context that seems to be being alighted in the talk about cold numbers which is
• 29:24
  what is the outcome of the war like what is you want to have a justification as to why it's
• 29:29
  necessary to kill this bad guy and these you know non-competence these civilians as collateral
• 29:35
  damage in order to achieve X right like defeating the Nazis good thing get rid of all the Nazis
• 29:42
  well they're what we have to do there should be no monotsies in the world people are skeptical
• 29:46
  that the current campaign that it's possible for the current campaign to get rid of jihadists
• 29:50
  it might get rid of I mean you know it's gotten rid of tons and tons of Hamas
• 29:54
  operatives formal people who you know had signed up to Hamas but as you said even the military
• 30:00
  was against going into Gaza City and yet a political system where there are all kinds of
• 30:05
  incentives for the people in power to perpetuate the conflict so they don't lose their coalition
• 30:09
  and have to face an election and maybe get sent to jail on corruption charges or whatever it might be
• 30:14
  that conspires to perpetuate a conflict and it's just a bit gawling it's a little bit hard to
• 30:20
  swallow that even if we're polyanna about the competent to civilian ratio we're talking about
• 30:27
  highly dangerous reckless behavior in a very urban area with a long you know just to throw in
• 30:35
  another wrench in the works which is the complicated and tangled moral history of Israel's
• 30:42
  relationship with the occupied territories right so it's not like you know I sometimes hear
• 30:47
  Israeli government officials or pro-Israel voices say well if any country was invaded by another
• 30:53
  country they would respond in the same way and the problem with that the way it lands to an
• 30:58
  non-Israeli year is like uh Gaza was sort of another country but also Gaza and the West Bank
• 31:06
  are territories that Israel has been involved in the creation of and have you know has participated
• 31:14
  in in questionable ways many would argue in terms of the way that the blockade on Gaza was
• 31:17
  conducted and the way that the settlements are built in the West Bank and the militarization of
• 31:22
  the West Bank and yeah we've gone forever it's not it's not as if we could sit here for three
• 31:26
  hours now yeah it's you know what I you know what I mean it's not like we're here we were we're
• 31:30
  just sitting in Israel doing our thing we had nothing to do with the Guasans they were totally
• 31:34
  free to do whatever they want you know subsisting on the calories that we gave them unable to
• 31:39
  leave their enclave for all for good reasons don't we wrong like you know I if I had a terrorist
• 31:44
  state next door I wouldn't be I wouldn't think everything's peachy either but it troubles me that
• 31:50
  Israel has found itself in this kind of complicated moral thicket where it's not quite as simple as
• 31:55
  the the rational calculus you made not because there's something unseemly about being overly rational
• 32:00
  about civilian deaths but because that's not the only piece of the jigsaw puzzle I'll tell you
• 32:06
  you listen we're not going to prosecute this 78 years of Israel's existence well we've gotten
• 32:12
  out in a half yeah come on surely we wrap it up 1967 no you know look Israel and and I think if
• 32:19
  we just jump to more modern history in 2005 when Israel pulled out a Gaza right you're 100%
• 32:25
  right I mean there was that the constant dynamic of a blockade and another war and and and
• 32:30
  can they leave can they not leave and what you know the Egyptians have a border but they're not
• 32:34
  letting in so Israel takes responsibility very complicated even after Israel pulled out a Gaza it's
• 32:38
  still held those relations and those ties that it was in control of the Gaza strip essentially
• 32:44
  and what could go in and what could come out and therefore you're you're right that it's not as if
• 32:49
  this can happen in a vacuum with that said what I want to just add and I think you know this is maybe
• 32:55
  the answer your question I a hundred percent agree and this is my biggest criticism of the way
• 32:59
  the war has been managed is that Israel you know you're right that when you when you go to war
• 33:06
  or when you're pulled into war like in this case you need to it was it was clausavage the famous
• 33:10
  prussian military theorist a couple hundred years ago said listen military operations a war is
• 33:16
  essentially a means to a political resolution right now Israel from the beginning of this war said
• 33:20
  look we're coming to eliminate Hamas total victory that was the slogan that the prime minister was
• 33:25
  talking about all time he even printed baseball hats with total victory on them right and everyone
• 33:29
  said and I was watching this from the beginning like what does that mean total victory what is total
• 33:33
  victory because we're not going to kill every last Hamas member we're not going to round up every
• 33:36
  last a k 47 and even two years into this out of the the hundreds of miles of tunnels we've only
• 33:42
  destroyed maybe maybe 60 percent of them right so I mean there's still a ton more to do so what
• 33:48
  is total victory forever war I mean I don't know how we get there there's only there's an obvious
• 33:53
  and I think the Donald Trump plan touches on that is the is the removal of Hamas from power
• 33:59
  the degrading of it as a military force so we can no longer threaten you and creating an
• 34:05
  alternative governing entity in Gaza that can achieve three goals one rebuild Gaza right rehabilitate
• 34:13
  the place that's very much needed to prevent Hamas from reconstituting has to have a robust
• 34:19
  capability of military police whatever you want to call it to prevent Hamas from being able to
• 34:24
  reconstitute of course Israel will have to retain some sort of operational freedom to ensure
• 34:28
  its security but you need people on the ground to stop the Hamas guys number three is also take
• 34:34
  Gaza on a journey of de radicalization whole other huge piece of the puzzle but the fact is that
• 34:41
  Israel never articulated this never said this and I think that we caused ourselves huge
• 34:48
  huge irreparable damage in the world because I don't think that had we said from the beginning
• 34:53
  listen we're fighting this war because we want to we want to help facilitate the creation of a new
• 34:59
  entity remove Hamas I don't think all the anti-Semites wouldn't have become anti-Semites I don't
• 35:04
  think all the criticism would have gone away but I think that people like your friend maybe
• 35:09
  who's probably an intelligent guy and you're right is sympathetic overall I think most of those
• 35:14
  people would have said okay at least I understand what Israel's fighting for but instead
• 35:19
  what we have is no articulation of what the day after looks like I mean I correct myself we do
• 35:25
  have an articulation we have crazy far right exactly I was going to say that the other thing is that
• 35:31
  the rest of the world doesn't know how to contextualize these guys you say we're going to
• 35:35
  settle the truth and Ben Gavir are being the what is perceived as being the people who say the quiet
• 35:41
  part out loud the people the only people in in Israel who actually say what all Israelis are
• 35:45
  secretly thinking which is that the Palestinians are fucked and they should go away and we should
• 35:48
  net we should wash our hands off them and we don't give a shit about them really like that's the
• 35:52
  sense that people get from the from the world one thing I've never heard since October 7th for many
• 35:56
  Israeli government official is the word liberation or to liberate Palestinians from jihadists why
• 36:04
  it wasn't framed like that why not frame it as here are these poor people they're trapped they are
• 36:10
  basically hostages themselves it's time to free them never happened never heard it this kills me
• 36:20
  I can't I can't tell you enough how much it frustrates me because then I've said this to the
• 36:24
  government officials you know I've probably done just personally hundreds maybe 400 upwards of
• 36:30
  interviews with CNN and sky and BBC trying to explain and and and you always have the smutritz
• 36:38
  remark or the bend beer remark or some other idiot minister who says let's drop a nuclear weapon
• 36:43
  on Gaza and you're like I didn't even know we had nuclear weapons because we've never said we did
• 36:49
  what is wrong with these people but they're besides for being stupid that they they also
• 36:54
  cause great damage to the country and look the fact is what they say is not policy but when you
• 37:00
  allow a vacuum the vacuum is going to be filled and I think that's on Netanyahu for not working
• 37:07
  to prevent this from happening he could have said early on our aim is xyz and that's what we're
• 37:15
  doing and it would have shut those people up and back to what you said before you're right
• 37:19
  this is where his political considerations came into play he didn't want to go up against smutritz
• 37:25
  and bend beer because he knew if he did they would pull out of his coalition and he wanted to stay
• 37:31
  in power so I think that when we look at the war I don't think that the operations on the ground
• 37:36
  is the save my political ass I think that it was not stopping bend beer and smutritz from talking
• 37:43
  and not putting them in their place that was the part that was about political survival
• 37:47
  right so when you talk about the day after right the the the way one of the major impediments to
• 37:53
  being able to reconstitute Gaza and have some kind of interim authority and have humus lay down
• 37:59
  its weapons is the hostages is the fact that there are still Israelis there I'm going to get in
• 38:05
  trouble for saying this but I think other people share the sensibility I don't quite get
• 38:13
  the hostage fixation in Israel what do you mean it's well of course it's tragic that there's
• 38:20
  a few dozen people and originally over a hundred people in horrible conditions but if they'd been
• 38:27
  killed on October 7th then the war would have been over a long war the war would have been over
• 38:33
  like suppose presumably why is it okay there are casualties like Israelis seem okay with soldiers
• 38:41
  with their soldiers dying to if you know to continue the war they seem okay with tens of
• 38:49
  thousands of garrisons dying because there are 46 people or something in a tunnel I'm 48
• 38:56
  emaciated like I get it emotionally from what you were saying about how traumatizing
• 39:04
  October 7th was but another part of me feels like after October 7th wouldn't a smart thing
• 39:12
  wouldn't ace my thing to do on the part of Israel to have been like this whole hostage taking
• 39:19
  bullshit that you do hardest to always doing it's not going to work anymore you're never going
• 39:23
  to do it anymore we don't give a shit about the hostages I like you this is it you're not going
• 39:27
  to have us over a barrel ever again fuck the hostages and fuck you Hamas and we're going to
• 39:32
  flood the tunnels like get the women and children out we'll put them all in Sinai all the military
• 39:38
  aged males can come out and we can do a background check on you and if you're still in guards
• 39:41
  are in a week we'll flood the tunnels and be done with it and everything's over in two weeks
• 39:45
  or whatever you know it seems like the hot the the way the hostages loo I was in Israel in November
• 39:51
  free to bring them home bring them home everywhere all posters everywhere all throughout Yafa
• 39:56
  you explain it to me it's a tough one I mean on a rational level what you just said
• 40:07
  I can't say I disagree with in to some extent you have to ask yourself especially where we are
• 40:13
  now where we started this war with 251 hostages who were taken to Gaza and we're currently at 48
• 40:19
  not of the 48 that are in Gaza we know that maybe 20 are alive right so you want to tell me
• 40:27
  that the war is continuing for maybe 20 people who are alive when you've lost already just in the
• 40:33
  last few months probably about 20 soldiers have been killed in Gaza so like what is the we're not
• 40:40
  even talking about the people who are being killed in Gaza the Palestinians civilians who are being killed
• 40:45
  so what is where how does this equation work and you're also right 100 per cent a million
• 40:52
  percent that it's I mean we keep on digging this hole to work for ourselves right back in 2006
• 40:58
  Hamas comes into Israel in a tunnel attacks a tank kidnaps a soldier by the name of Gilad Shalit
• 41:04
  one soldier holds on to him for five years five years and in 2011 Benjamin Netanyahu
• 41:10
  then also then he was Prime Minister releases over a thousand Palestinians in exchange for this
• 41:16
  one soldier by the way including among those one thousand is Yachia Sinwar the genocidal
• 41:24
  terrorist who planned plotted and ran dr 7th massacre right he's the one who released him from
• 41:30
  Israeli prison the guy was supposed to sit there and rot away for for for eternity so I mean
• 41:35
  yeah for one person for one person and Yachia Sinwar went on and killed 1200 people
• 41:42
  for one because of one soldier there's something you know I want to say there's something wrong
• 41:48
  but it's a strength and a weakness at the same time that's what we have to recognize the weakness is
• 41:54
  look at what we do for one person look at what we we're doing for 48 people 28 of them known
• 41:59
  to be verified bodies look at what we a war that proceeds I mean because this in a in a dry rational
• 42:05
  reality you say I've achieved my war aims I'm stopping the war I'm letting in the got the new
• 42:11
  governing entity let's get going we'll try to get back who we can get back in the future let's go
• 42:15
  we're gonna run negotiations but we got to get moving right that's in the dry vacuum world within
• 42:22
  Israel though there's something about this country and the ethos and I think it has to do with
• 42:29
  the number of factors if I can I don't have the perfect answer but I think it has to do with the
• 42:33
  fact that we have a compulsory military service everybody serves so when you have except the
• 42:39
  ultra orthodox but except for the ultra orthodox but the men the the people who do serve when you
• 42:43
  and that's the majority of this country when you see soldiers who are taken you look at them like
• 42:47
  they're your son or your daughter when you see civilians who are taken you feel like it's you
• 42:53
  and and and the abandonment the responsibility to bring them back in the where we go to save one life
• 43:01
  is something that no other country does nobody does this so I look at it but it feels ethnic
• 43:07
  centric to to non Israelis and to non Jews because you know you hear Palestinians talk about
• 43:13
  bringing back the hostages I've seen on lots of posts on social media every time something blows
• 43:17
  up about Netanyahu getting up at the UN or whatever and talking about the hostages
• 43:20
  referring to the Palestinians who are in Israeli prisons in military tribunals that have never
• 43:26
  they've never faced a proper they've never had a proper trial they've never had a you know they're
• 43:30
  suspected associates of terrorist organizations or something but many of them might be civil
• 43:37
  dissenters or whatever they've never faced their day in court and these people call those people
• 43:40
  hostages so yeah it's a laudable sense of empathy that Israelis are displaying towards their own
• 43:47
  kind but most of the world looks at that and goes well be nice if you could expand that empathic
• 43:53
  circle to the people who are also detaining in military prisons and the people being
• 43:56
  I mean you know I'll push yeah I'll push back on that because I I think that you know from what I
• 44:01
  know the military tribunals actually do follow procedures and there's an appeal system that allows
• 44:08
  them to appeal to civilian court but I put that aside human rights organizations don't regard them as
• 44:12
  being fair court most human rights organizations don't don't actually judge Israel in a fair
• 44:17
  objective way this is true right but but I mean nothing's that nothing's ever black and white that I
• 44:23
  totally recognize and I think that here first of all we do have to care about ourselves there's no
• 44:28
  one else who's going to care about us I mean we see what goes on in the world we see what happens
• 44:32
  and and the hatred of Israel I mean you mentioned October 8th when the protests began protests began
• 44:37
  in New York City on October 7th right as Israel was already was under attack Israel hadn't even
• 44:42
  fired a shot yet back into Gaza and that we were already being we were already them protests and
• 44:47
  demonstrations around the world you know people smell Jewish blood and the anti-Semites said okay
• 44:52
  let's jump into the party don't worry it was happening just as promptly in Australia but the
• 44:57
  the international debt line impeded our jihadists so it is almost from getting quick enough
• 45:01
  for you as October 8th by the time that exactly but but but I do think is that you know we of course
• 45:09
  will first and foremost prioritize ourselves but our borrow line also from Golda Mayor our former
• 45:15
  prime minister back in the 70s is that if they cared about their children as much as we cared
• 45:21
  about their children there would not be war here and I think that's that still is very true
• 45:27
  I mean the the the way that the Israeli military for the most part fights and I know that's difficult
• 45:32
  to see and to understand and you know to accept what I'm saying looking at what's happened in Gaza
• 45:39
  but you don't put a base inside a building and you don't hide rockets in a children's bedroom
• 45:46
  under their bed you don't fight in that way if you care about their lives Hamas's purpose
• 45:51
  Hamas looks at the civilians of Gaza as the father that they want to be killed by the canons
• 45:58
  because they want this to happen to Israel they are very sophisticated and this is another
• 46:04
  tragic mistake that Israel made I think that it did not recognize that is that that what happens
• 46:10
  and that the way it responds and when it kills these people what essentially it's doing is playing
• 46:16
  right into Hamas's hands because I'll say one other thing Josh right imagine we're Hamas right now
• 46:21
  you and I you're we're I'm in Doha and you're in Gaza or vice versa we're the Hamas leaders we're
• 46:25
  sitting on as I'll take Doha please you can take a second Gaza yeah and we're we're we're plotting
• 46:32
  what do we do do we end the war do we accept Trump's plan do we not and you know I would say to you
• 46:35
  hold on a second let's look at the reality we still got 48 hostages we got Israel bogged down in
• 46:43
  Gaza they don't have a way out we're getting the world including Australia Canada France written
• 46:49
  other countries recognizing a Palestinian state for the first time in history right even after
• 46:54
  October 7 even though we're holding on pastages Israel is ostracized isolated the whole world
• 47:01
  thinks they're committing genocide you got ICC warrants out of the four that were issued in the
• 47:07
  in the middle of the war only two are left because two were gods the Hamas guys who were been killed
• 47:12
  so Benjamin Netanyahu still has an ICC warrant and when he flew now to New York for the General Assembly
• 47:18
  the United Nations he couldn't fly over France right because he was afraid if he's got a if he's
• 47:22
  got an emergency landing in France maybe they'll arrest him because they they they're their
• 47:26
  signatories of the Rome Statute of the ICC we got it or you can send up fighter jets if you're
• 47:31
  if there's a plane flying over your territory and you can force it down you can do those little
• 47:35
  wing waves the fighter jets they force it to land yeah they have to fly around France
• 47:39
  well which is made the trip longer by I don't know an hour or two I mean France is a friend of
• 47:45
  Israel from my friends but here's the question are we winning or losing the war and I would think
• 47:51
  there's an argument to be made the Hamas might think even with the 60,000 people killed they're
• 47:56
  winning the war because it's achieving their goals so we actually as the Western world have to ask
• 48:01
  ourselves a different question I think at least are we not misunderstanding the dynamic here
• 48:08
  of what Hamas is really after and are we not essentially rewarding Hamas and making it believe
• 48:15
  that they in fact have succeeded in their ultimate objective you are preempting where I was
• 48:21
  going to take this conversation so let's just go there now which was going to be what do you
• 48:24
  think yeah he else in wire wanted on October 7th what was his what was his wet dream outcome
• 48:31
  well I think partially of what's happening right now but I think more important he wanted to
• 48:37
  achieve two very clear objectives well three let's say the first is look you these guys never
• 48:43
  need a good reason to want to kill Israelis kidnap Israelis I mean that's just they wake up
• 48:49
  he's strategic he's not just you know he's not a foot soldier run 100 percent the two strategic
• 48:55
  objectives was one let's remember when we were back in October 2023 there was a plan on the
• 49:03
  table ready to be signed by the United States Saudi Arabia and Israel for Saudi normalization
• 49:10
  that would have it wouldn't it would not have been an expansion of the Abraham Accords which was
• 49:14
  the normalization agreement between Israel the UAE Bahrain and Morocco back in 2020 it would
• 49:20
  have been a whole new agreement that would literally open up the door for normalization and diplomatic
• 49:25
  relations between Israel and the entire Muslim world because once you get the Saudis you get
• 49:31
  potentially in Indonesia Malaysia everyone right Africa it's a whole new reality yes once you've
• 49:37
  got the impromptu of the most important Arab Muslim country then the atomized will fall
• 49:42
  so that was about to happen he wanted to prevent that from happening and he succeeded the second
• 49:47
  thing that I think was most strategic is he recognized the Palestinian issue in particularly Gaza
• 49:55
  no one kips a shit they fallen off the world's agenda no one cares no one's talking about them
• 50:01
  he wanted to bring that back and if you think about that everywhere we go today everywhere you
• 50:06
  travel in the world every capital you go throughout Sydney you go to Melbourne you go to Canberra you go
• 50:11
  all throughout Europe I was with my family in Italy over the summer you get free Palestine Palestinian
• 50:16
  flags free Gaza everyone in the world this issue now has become the the modern you know free
• 50:25
  Nelson Mandela right I mean this is this is what it is so so for from that perspective
• 50:31
  the future of Palestine the future of Gaza the Palestinian issue is today who cares about
• 50:37
  Ukraine right I mean this is the number one issue for the world and definitely for the younger
• 50:42
  generations of this world there he succeeded so I think when you look at those strategic objectives
• 50:47
  right he definitely met those two I think you know to try to destroy Israel if he ever thought
• 50:54
  he potentially could that he failed miserably and when you get the sorry to break some bad news
• 51:01
  to you Jacob I think there was a third strategic I think those are really interesting points but I
• 51:05
  think there was a third piece of the puzzle possibly which I worry about more than any other which is
• 51:13
  to bait Israel into behaving in such unconscionable ways that diaspora Jews around the world themselves
• 51:22
  were both victims of more anti-Semitism and found themselves uneasy about supporting Israel
• 51:30
  what has happened to my relationship to Israel and of many other diaspora Jews over the past two
• 51:35
  years is unfortunately I think exactly what I mean Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran want which is that
• 51:44
  Israel turn into a a little spatter yeah sure to you know a pariah state that no longer even has buy
• 51:55
  in from the Jews of the world because yeah I've been misunderstood sometimes in my commentary on
• 52:02
  Israel because people think that when I say that Jews should stop defending Israel people think I
• 52:06
  mean that Jews should Jews in Israel should stop defending their stage or that Israelis don't
• 52:11
  belong in Israel or that you know Zionism is wrong or that Jews don't have a right to a state I
• 52:15
  don't think any of those things but I do think that the time has come for us to acknowledge the
• 52:21
  richness of the tradition of Judaism as an ethnicity and a culture and a faith that is independent
• 52:28
  of carrying water for the state of Israel and that's not a position I was out on October 6th 2023
• 52:33
  and that is a huge victory and BB has done since where I was bidding a thousand percent on bringing
• 52:39
  that about you know it trust me what you're saying right now deeply deeply disturbs me and I think
• 52:46
  it needs to disturb every Israeli I think that Israelis are not aware enough of that sentiment that
• 52:51
  you are articulating very eloquently and very painful for me as an Israeli Jew definitely to hear
• 52:57
  that who cares deeply about the relationship between Israel and the diaspora because I recognize
• 53:02
  at least I believe that we are one people that I recognize there is a sense of peoplehood whether
• 53:08
  you're a Jew who lives in the land of Israel you're a Jew who lives in Australia or somewhere else
• 53:12
  around the world and I want to keep that sense of peoplehood vibrant and alive and I want Israel
• 53:19
  in an ideal way to play a role in the Jewish identity of people around the world even if they don't
• 53:25
  live here that's fine and I think that Israel today plays the opposite role and I think you're
• 53:31
  100% right and I think that the government doesn't take that enough into consideration I don't think
• 53:36
  though by the way and you'll probably I think you'll agree with me is that at the end of the day
• 53:41
  on October 7th right October 8th the cabinet meets or even half a year into the war the cabinet
• 53:47
  convenes we say listen we got do we keep going and then somebody raises their hand in the cabinet
• 53:51
  meaning it says listen look what's going on Columbia look what's going on and you know in the
• 53:56
  University of Sydney look what's going on in all these college campuses look at the antisemitism
• 54:01
  we're talking after the horrific attack and in Manchester and Yom Kippur where two Jews were
• 54:07
  were killed and several others seriously wounded I mean antisemitism is thriving thriving right
• 54:14
  hundreds of percentile increase maybe we should consider not increasing escalating the war because
• 54:22
  of the impact it's having around the world and Jewish communities should that be the a factor
• 54:28
  in the government's debates 100% in my opinion is it today no should it be yes but should it be
• 54:34
  the determining factor also no because this government is going to have to determine what's right
• 54:40
  for the citizens of this country but I think that we we we come back to something that we kind of
• 54:46
  touched upon earlier which is that we're not we're not explaining what we're doing this government
• 54:53
  is not articulating anything it's not giving anyone hope it's not giving anyone a vision
• 54:58
  and and it's it's turning who are our natural allies like yourself I mean people who are Jewish who
• 55:04
  are supporters of Israel even now Jews who are supporters of Israel and it's saying to them
• 55:09
  we don't give a shit um you know and and that is that's that hunkering down I'll just say one
• 55:13
  other thing but it's not who we are as a country that's not Israel you know Israel is a western
• 55:18
  nation right this is by the way you mentioned BBs Sparta comment the super Sparta comment I think
• 55:23
  what was so horrific to hear right and why it was so painful and and and people were so angry
• 55:30
  just for background if people didn't hear it it was he was talking to the UN is that right and
• 55:34
  no he was speech here in Israel that he gave oh okay and he was basically saying even if we lose
• 55:38
  all our friends in Europe and the United States hey Sparta was able to do it will be a super
• 55:42
  Sparta and we won't need any friends because we'll be so tough right and it was like you know
• 55:46
  he was talking mostly about the economy and how we can we can do things on our own we don't need
• 55:50
  ties around the world and people were like what the fuck is this guy talking about I mean Israel
• 55:53
  is a western country our cultural ties are with the West right it's with Europe in the United
• 56:00
  States our trade is is our biggest trading partner is the EU we don't really not trading with Syria
• 56:06
  yeah no one we don't watch Indian films Bollywood we watch you know American Hollywood movies
• 56:12
  in TV shows I mean you're turning on Israeli television it's CNN and MSNBC and Fox News right
• 56:18
  so when you tell Israelis and you paint for them a picture listen we don't need Australia Canada
• 56:24
  the US Europe France the UK they're like what do you talk that's not who we are we're a liberal
• 56:29
  democracy that wants to be part of the Western world even though we live in a region that is not
• 56:34
  by the way it's a strength and it's a weakness because the weakness is we thought we were Luxembourg
• 56:39
  but we forgot that our neighbors are not Belgium and France our neighbors are you know Syria
• 56:45
  Lebanon and Gaza yeah so one of the things that I've been trying to articulate and it's a tricky
• 56:52
  thing to articulate without being misunderstood just to expand on the point that I was making earlier
• 56:58
  is for like there's a certain amount of misbehavior that Israel can get away with and it can expect
• 57:05
  that the Jews of the world will make excuses for it right but there comes a point and by that I mean
• 57:13
  the pre-October 7th Netanyahu paradigm of continue aggressively building Israeli you know
• 57:19
  Jewish towns in the West Bank make life increasingly difficult and humiliating and degrading
• 57:24
  for Palestinians in the West Bank be as capricious as you want to about the way that the embargo
• 57:29
  in Gaza works and micro managing precisely how many kilometers off the coast
• 57:33
  fishermen gas and fishermen confession precisely how many you know dual use items that could
• 57:39
  potentially be military in purpose but are really probably just concrete or whatever you know
• 57:43
  there was a whole a whole list of things that people who felt like Israel was behaving poorly
• 57:50
  in the Netanyahu years could list that the Jews of the world were able to go yeah we don't like
• 57:55
  this government but you know give them a pass stop singling them out you know we have to focus on
• 58:00
  solidarity and opposing anti-Semitism and what's happened in the past couple of years is that
• 58:06
  there's a tipping point at which people like me are trying to say we have to be able to articulate
• 58:13
  Jewishness in the absence of being expected to defend Israel and that contrary to it being
• 58:22
  an instigator of anti-Semitism for there to be division in the Jewish community over Israel
• 58:29
  it may actually make Jewish it may make make the Jews of the world safer for them to be understood
• 58:38
  as a complicated quarreling rambunctious minority who disagree with each other about Israel
• 58:44
  then for every Jew to be perceived as synonymous with the IDF but I don't know how you pull off that
• 58:51
  move of distancing oneself from the state as it currently exists not the Zionism in the clouds
• 58:59
  that my grandmother dreamed of not the concept of an Israeli state this actual state the way that it
• 59:06
  actually behaves the policies it actually pursues not just for a year not just for a decade but for
• 59:13
  quite a long time since at least say 2008 how do you pull off that move or should you or is it a
• 59:19
  misbegotten move you know am I on the wrong side of this and I should just shut up and carry
• 59:24
  water for Israel no I look I can't speak for how you know people around the world perceive Jews
• 59:32
  right I mean I think I you know we know and I spend a lot of time outside of this country and we see
• 59:39
  you know what what happens in this media perception of if you're Jewish that means you're Zionist
• 59:44
  that means you're pro Netanyahu you're pro Lee Kud that means you support the war he supports
• 59:48
  settlements etc etc obviously it's not true at all I mean by the way you know I think the best
• 59:53
  proof of that and and maybe we're what what can serve as as as as legs for what you're trying to
• 1:00:00
  to articulate is how we are here in Israel the Israeli people right I mean the vast majority
• 1:00:07
  right now of Israeli people do not support this government right the majority of Israeli people
• 1:00:12
  do not support Netanyahu the majority of Israeli people do not support the continuation of this war
• 1:00:17
  right the majority of Israeli people want this Trump plan to to succeed and even a Trump
• 1:00:22
  plan that by the way in visions a Palestinian state one day got forbid we should mention that word
• 1:00:28
  right I mean so if you look at where the majority of Israeli people are they're kind of where
• 1:00:33
  you are to an extent right now they might not feel they might have that same level of criticism
• 1:00:38
  for the IDF that's where I think we'll find find some nuance but at the end of the day the vision
• 1:00:44
  of what you want to see Israel be from the perch of the diaspora is the kind of Israel that I
• 1:00:51
  think Israelis actually do want to see now the change that has happened here and we can't ignore
• 1:00:57
  there has been a change since October 7th October 7th has taught Israelis and it's going to be tough
• 1:01:04
  to overcome this right now is that maybe this idea of you know helping our enemies and our
• 1:01:13
  adversaries create economic prosperity and trying to stave off conflict and doing anything we can
• 1:01:20
  to kick the can down the road and not to have to fight this war that's not working the idea of
• 1:01:26
  withdrawing from territory look at what happened when we withdraw from Lebanon in 2000 after an
• 1:01:31
  18-year presence in a security zone there we got the two thousand six second Lebanon war and look
• 1:01:35
  what happened in 2023 when they unleashed a hundred and something thousand missiles that they had
• 1:01:40
  on us and from his Bala never fired all of them but that was the arsenal we pulled out of Gaza
• 1:01:45
  in 2005 and look what happened in in 2023 almost 20 years later we got the October 7th attack so tell
• 1:01:52
  Israelis today listen Palestinian state is where we need to go it's tougher people to see that
• 1:01:59
  personally I think that needs to remain the objective but we need to explain how what the
• 1:02:08
  process is to get there and it's going to take time right but we keep there's no there's no
• 1:02:14
  there's nothing wrong with even if we had a responsible government which unfortunately we don't and
• 1:02:18
  I think you've you've got in my sense where I stand on this government you know I would want my
• 1:02:23
  government say listen of course I want the Palestinians to have self-determination I want them to
• 1:02:27
  have a state part of defeating Hamas is leading to the establishment of a Palestinian state we want
• 1:02:33
  we're going to help we're going to remove Hamas we're going to help create that new entity we're
• 1:02:38
  going to let them stand on their own we're going to work with them in the world to de-radicalize Gaza
• 1:02:43
  change the education system change the culture institutions we got this there's a generation there
• 1:02:48
  that wants to kill me we need a new generation to come that can understand coexistence we need to
• 1:02:53
  undergo a change in our own society in the way we view the Palestinians in the Arabs but we're
• 1:02:59
  going on that and unfortunately we don't hear any of that but I think that most Israelis
• 1:03:05
  are there but the trauma right now is clouding that so the one thing I can ask of you Josh don't give
• 1:03:11
  up I thought don't give up on us just yet right give us a little time wait for this war to end
• 1:03:18
  and hopefully please God it will soon wait for this war to end and let's get into that day after
• 1:03:24
  period the reason it the reason it sounds false Jacob is not your words but the idea
• 1:03:33
  of a Palestinian state being in any way plausible is that what we've needed for a long time are
• 1:03:42
  green shoots of civic institutions in Palestine right we need an alternative as you say that
• 1:03:48
  you know the education system has been shot you've got a whole generation of people who will
• 1:03:51
  wildly anti-Semitic in the West Bank you've got this moribund corrupt governing authority
• 1:03:57
  you got jihadist in Gaza it's it's a basket case and the reaction that the world has seen
• 1:04:03
  Israel take ever since well you know for the past 15 or 20 years has been to continue building
• 1:04:13
  what many people regard as illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank to continue turning
• 1:04:18
  something of a blind eye to clashes between Jews between you know newly arrived Jews and local
• 1:04:25
  Palestinians in those areas to build highways exclusively for Jews across the West Bank that
• 1:04:31
  are nice and fast while Palestinians go bumbling over these little pot hold roads and constructing
• 1:04:38
  a militarized thicket that looks like apartheid to the untrained eye in the West Bank at the same
• 1:04:46
  time as all of those indignities that I was talking about of the blockade on Gaza earlier micromanaging
• 1:04:52
  precisely you know how many calories go in and it just it smells off and there are a million reasons
• 1:04:59
  why Israel would feel justified in having run that regime so this is let's ignore the Gaza war
• 1:05:04
  in October 7th and just talk about the the delicate relationship that the world has had with
• 1:05:11
  Israel's behavior even prior to that you know I think it was time as he coats who made the the
• 1:05:18
  point that he opposes the death penalty regardless of the conditions you know it's not it's no
• 1:05:23
  use to come to him and say yeah but what if there was a person who what if it was a terror what if
• 1:05:27
  it was a jihadist terrorist you know who had killed thousands of people what about the death penalty
• 1:05:34
  then he would just say no I just oppose the death penalty and similarly he opposes apartheid he
• 1:05:39
  opposes a regime that treats certain people one way and other people one way based on a risk
• 1:05:44
  assessment that is purely adjudicated because of their ethnicity but that is life in the West
• 1:05:51
  bank right like it's
• 1:05:57
  where does Israel get how to you know it's not just a guard it's not just a Gaza war thing it's not
• 1:06:03
  just a post October 7th thing it's like a yeah you can give me a million reasons why a person is
• 1:06:11
  is justified at every step of the way in making logical decisions but at the end of the day there's
• 1:06:16
  been a lot more behaving like a brutalizing hegemon who has dominion over another people than there
• 1:06:25
  has been tending to the green shoots in those societies like stopping building settlements and
• 1:06:32
  investing in local Palestinian community centers that can you know with funding for more moderate
• 1:06:38
  versions of Islam or something like that like if if Israel had been doing that for decades it would
• 1:06:42
  have more I guess credibility now to come forth and say look stay with us stay with us don't give
• 1:06:49
  up on us just yet but where's the evidence that it's really genuinely concerned with providing
• 1:06:56
  the conditions on the ground in the West Bank or Gaza that can give rise to functioning societies
• 1:07:02
  now I know why they call this the uncomfortable conversations I mean I can't say you're a hundred
• 1:07:10
  percent wrong and I think that part of what you're saying is right and I want one of my
• 1:07:16
  biggest problems that I've long written about and continue right about I mean even this week
• 1:07:21
  I wrote about it in my column is just this this failure that we have as a country to make tough
• 1:07:27
  decisions over time right what do you know you look throughout the history of the conflict with
• 1:07:33
  the Palestinians at least in the modern iteration of the last 35 years or so since the Oslo
• 1:07:39
  Accords pretty much since 1993 when they were signed and and you say to yourself okay one point
• 1:07:46
  Israel embraced this idea of two separate entities us as one state the Palestinians as another state
• 1:07:52
  now it ran into problems right there were the suicide attacks of the 90s and there were the
• 1:07:57
  second into father of 2000 but then suddenly in 2005 Israel goes and says look we're pulling out
• 1:08:03
  of Gaza we're gonna you know we're making these steps now again to try to get back on track
• 1:08:08
  but ever since then it's been as if we have no initiative of our own right you don't know
• 1:08:14
  what is the Benjamin Netanyahu plan right I have no clue I do know what was the Bush plan I know
• 1:08:21
  what the Obama plan was I know what the Trump plan was I know what the Biden plan was every
• 1:08:26
  president has a plan but there's no Benjamin Netanyahu plan what's these what it was what does
• 1:08:31
  Israeli want what is it you know if you told me right now that Israelis want one state I would be
• 1:08:37
  against it I think it's tre- it's the end of Israel in my opinion ultimately definitely
• 1:08:41
  demographically but if that's what they want go for it guys you have the votes in the Knesset
• 1:08:47
  and then annex the West Bank apply Israeli law to the West Bank don't do apartheid right so you
• 1:08:52
  got you have to give citizenship to everyone including the Palestinians I think ending at
• 1:08:56
  stupid but if you want to go ahead and do it go for it and if you don't want to do that you want
• 1:09:01
  the two state solution then what are we doing to make that happen I don't think we should be giving
• 1:09:05
  them a state today but we should be doing a lot of what you're saying invest in that say hold on
• 1:09:11
  is another outpost and another hilltop somewhere in the West Bank that's what's gonna make Israel
• 1:09:16
  more safer and secure or is it let's leave the situation as it is right we don't need to create more
• 1:09:23
  but we're not moving anyone out of their homes right now but let's start investing in creating the
• 1:09:28
  reality on the ground that can one day facilitate and sustain potential coexistence why aren't we
• 1:09:34
  doing that so what are we doing instead and we've been doing this for 20 years Josh we've we've
• 1:09:41
  fell in love with the status quo right I mean and I don't know about you you know I'm married right
• 1:09:46
  I think you're married right I mean you got a couple kids status quo doesn't work in a relationship
• 1:09:51
  I mean you know if I told my wife we're keeping a status quo I'm out of the house I mean you
• 1:09:57
  know you I think in any relationship there's no such thing as a status quo and just assuming that
• 1:10:03
  the situation can stay the way it is and you're gonna keep on building in the settlements and you're
• 1:10:08
  not gonna invest in the West in the Palestinians and you're not I mean I'll tell you something even
• 1:10:12
  more absurd really it's just crazy when you think about it go back to when we started facilitating
• 1:10:19
  the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas and Gaza 2018 okay around that same time
• 1:10:27
  a couple years before right around that same time Israel lobbied hard the pro-Israel community in
• 1:10:32
  the United States lobbied hard to pass a law called the Taylor force act Taylor force was a U.S.
• 1:10:38
  army ranger or marine who was stabbed to death on the Tel Aviv promenade by a Palestinian terrorist
• 1:10:44
  and in his name uh they passed a law in the U.S. Congress that essentially deducted from American
• 1:10:52
  aid to the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah so the so-called good guys in the Palestinian
• 1:10:57
  the ones who are against terror deducted aid based on they have this pay to slay mechanism right
• 1:11:03
  they pay terrorists in Israeli prisons which is bad and horrible and shouldn't happen because it
• 1:11:08
  incentivizes the rewards terrorists essentially but they're they're officially against terrorism
• 1:11:14
  they don't support terrorism their security forces coordinate and cooperate with the Israeli
• 1:11:18
  security forces in the West Bank to stop terrorism but they have this thing that they pay very bad
• 1:11:23
  shouldn't happen but America we got them together with the pro-Israel community America passed that
• 1:11:29
  law to deduct whatever it is a hundred million dollars they deducted a hundred million dollars
• 1:11:33
  at the same time we're asking Qatar to transfer 30 million dollars every month to the genocidal
• 1:11:40
  jihadist terrorist group in Gaza so in other words we're giving money to the guys who want to kill
• 1:11:45
  us and we're asking America to take away money from the guys who are officially against killing us
• 1:11:50
  how does that make sense and is the rationale that if you play Kate Hamas and just keep things
• 1:11:56
  humming along and nobody's starving in Gaza that they'll just keep quiet in Puppet Floyd that's
• 1:12:01
  for sure what we were trying to do in Gaza but my point is in the West Bank what were we trying to
• 1:12:04
  we kept on trying to eviscerate and weaken and and and and and and I don't not topple because we never
• 1:12:11
  wanted to bring down the Palestinian authority because it was convenient for us that they're there
• 1:12:15
  in that way very weakened and isolated no one gives a shit about them and they don't have money
• 1:12:21
  but is that in our interest you know our interest has to be something else and we don't we don't have any
• 1:12:28
  we've lost the leadership that we once had in this country this comes back to sort of really
• 1:12:34
  the subtext of your book or indeed the text of your book which is about a lack of vision and a lack of
• 1:12:40
  sort of thought really a lack of strategic thinking that gave rise to the holes that allowed
• 1:12:47
  Israel to be attacked on October 7th and it's almost sounds like you're giving too much of
• 1:12:53
  the benefit of the doubt to Israel's recent leaders in saying like why were they being so
• 1:13:00
  you know what was their ultimate objective couldn't they see that it was going to be fruitless
• 1:13:03
  to be undermining the Palestinian authority at the same time as they were bolstering Hamas
• 1:13:07
  no I I by the way sorry interrupt I see what I know what Netanyahu wanted to do which is
• 1:13:12
  is ideologically opposed to the establishment of a Palestinian state right he has tried to fool
• 1:13:18
  the world over a period of decades by giving speeches occasionally saying yeah we should we this is
• 1:13:24
  where I want to go a demilitarized Palestinian state not true he is officially ideologically
• 1:13:30
  in his bones against it and for that reason to give the money to Hamas and to take away the money
• 1:13:36
  from the Palestinian Authority and not to talk to Abu Mazin in the West Bank the leader of the PA
• 1:13:43
  was all about helping to continue the divide between the Palestinians to achieve that political
• 1:13:49
  objective because then when when you would come to Israel and say hey israeli's why aren't you
• 1:13:53
  doing anything for the Palestinian why aren't you trying to work and facilitate and and have no
• 1:13:58
  partner for peace and they're dividing it they don't even get along so what do you want from me
• 1:14:04
  yeah it was the perfect excuse it's made it so hard yeah of for Israel to have credibility yet
• 1:14:11
  you know in the rest of the world so so much more difficult all of this behavior it's it's
• 1:14:17
  infuriating you know to someone who cares about about the country and who cares about trying to
• 1:14:23
  find peace there that that level of blinkerness is so evident these strategies that aren't strategies
• 1:14:31
  these tactics that aren't really tactics these short of short term you know by ourselves another
• 1:14:36
  year of peace and quiet and hope that we can divide the enemy for another few months or a few
• 1:14:42
  years like what is the I guess it is just a deeply cynical and pessimistic view of the long-term
• 1:14:47
  prospects for peace right it is it is I look I interviewed your former boss not not Ali Bennett in
• 1:14:52
  New York when I was working there and I was somewhat refreshed by his by the the stride and see
• 1:14:59
  like the blatancy with which he sort of just discounted the possibility of there ever being a
• 1:15:03
  Palestinian state he was like you know we sat together for a half hour and he just seemed quite
• 1:15:07
  matter of fact about every this would have been in 2015 maybe so he was just like you know
• 1:15:13
  he was just treated as if it's not a big deal you know you deal you manage it it's just it's just an
• 1:15:18
  issue that that you will manage and I never saw it that way I always saw it as something and the
• 1:15:23
  world doesn't see it that way you know the it speaks to people as you said you go all over the world
• 1:15:28
  and now in particular you see people agitating about Palestinian rights in a way that they weren't
• 1:15:32
  two years ago and I think that is partly because everybody has a latent sense that Zionist or not
• 1:15:39
  Zionist anti-Semite or Jew there has to be some final way of solving the problem of there being
• 1:15:46
  two people who have competing claims to some of this land I mean I agree with you so tell me what
• 1:15:57
  it is and then we'll wrap up the conversation I wish there was a way that we could find we could
• 1:16:05
  we could say what that plan is and how do we get there I think that October 7 in a in a in a
• 1:16:13
  in a in a tragic way but in the reality is a step in the potentially in that direction because
• 1:16:20
  the removal of Hamas it's elimination to the greatest extent possible the establishment in others
• 1:16:26
  if you look at the Trump plan that has apparently the support of the Arab countries and Israel has
• 1:16:30
  said we agree to it what it essentially does is it creates a new reality in Gaza a new governance in
• 1:16:37
  Gaza a new entity it frees the Palestinians of Gaza it gives them hope and it should give all of us
• 1:16:43
  hope that we can create this reality that is what what's needed I mean you know the Israel really
• 1:16:49
  is that country I think and this is the pain of of October 7 to some extent you know one side of
• 1:16:55
  it is the book that we wrote right which is the failures that led to it but the flip side of
• 1:17:01
  October 7 the other side of the coin is the reengineering of the Middle East today right if you think
• 1:17:07
  about it for a moment right now there is amazing opportunity today in the Middle East you have his
• 1:17:12
  beloved beaten back in Lebanon not gone but beaten back you have a government in Lebanon that's
• 1:17:17
  actively trying to collect the weapons and stop his bala you got a new government in Syria that
• 1:17:23
  yeah they were al-Qaeda just a few months ago but maybe these are suddenly they're now the darling
• 1:17:28
  of the west ashara the leader of Syria now talks about a potential agreement with Israel you got
• 1:17:35
  Iran on the defensive after the historic Israeli American attack the potential for a new nuclear
• 1:17:41
  deal that will hopefully prevent them from ever getting a nuclear weapon you have Gaza now
• 1:17:47
  Hamas gone degraded whatever and the opportunity for a new government that can prevent them from
• 1:17:53
  reconstituting and can lead us to a new era with the Palestinians there is amazing we're on the
• 1:17:58
  cusp of amazing opportunity but you know what the problem is I think at least in Israel we don't
• 1:18:03
  have the great government to take advantage of these opportunities we need a government here
• 1:18:08
  that can can see the opportunity and seize it now I know because I say this to Israelis
• 1:18:15
  and they think I'm naive they see what do you mean the lesson of October 7th is is not to seize
• 1:18:21
  opportunities hunkered down big build bigger fences all we not have not have a weapon in one hand
• 1:18:27
  and a hand in a pen or a hand stretched out in peace in the other have two weapons in both hands
• 1:18:32
  right I think that I get that that's the trauma speaking but for a country we can't ignore
• 1:18:40
  the opportunities that we have we have to hold a weapon in one hand and we have to always be prepared
• 1:18:44
  that is the lesson of October 7th the lesson is don't let your enemies a mass weapons don't let
• 1:18:50
  them build up those capabilities on your border and you think it's going to be okay I can buy
• 1:18:54
  them off no no no no we see them building up the capabilities you attack you don't wait and that's
• 1:18:59
  going to be hard but you're going to have to do it but in the other hand we have to take advantage
• 1:19:04
  of this I mean the middle east can be something else and you know what if the answer to October 7th
• 1:19:11
  I think by the way the answer to October 7th unlike smutrogen bin beer it's not resettling Gaza
• 1:19:17
  that's stupid the answer to October 7th the real victory for Israel is normalization with Saudi Arabia
• 1:19:23
  if you do something like that you show everyone you Yahya senwar we spoke about before
• 1:19:29
  what he wanted to achieve if you do that it showed it will show him and everyone else that they
• 1:19:36
  completely failed that this is actually Israel has been able and the region together have been
• 1:19:41
  able to take this tragedy and turn it around to a new reality that is for the benefit of the
• 1:19:47
  entire region and I would say the wider world that's the victory we can and we can get there
• 1:19:52
  but we need that leadership speaking of that leadership often it's often it's unlikely people who
• 1:19:58
  bring peace or who who have the credibility to do more audacious things I'm thinking of Sharan
• 1:20:03
  but having the credibility to pull out of Gaza for example do you think that it's possible
• 1:20:09
  or even likely that a right wing Israeli prime minister who's not Netanyahu could be the person
• 1:20:18
  who actually ends up creating a Palestinian state it's a look it's possible it's hard to see who
• 1:20:24
  that is right now you know well could it be Bennett I mean it could be Bennett Bennett is still
• 1:20:30
  vocally very much opposed to a Palestinian state but I think that a Bennett led government
• 1:20:36
  could be a government that takes Israel on that journey and is a government that will could come
• 1:20:42
  if it's if it's elected after whenever elections will be held there's supposed to be in October
• 1:20:46
  but they're expected to be held earlier when those elections are held if there's a government
• 1:20:50
  that's led by enough tally Bennett or anyone else from that center left camp I think that has they
• 1:20:57
  they would have the credibility to and potentially the support of the people because on one hand
• 1:21:03
  they're right wing some of them Bennett Lieberman some of these other people God yeah when you say
• 1:21:08
  sent a left camp what do you mean I thought I mean I found enough tally Bennett to be more right
• 1:21:11
  well I tell you that it's on the right right now tell you that it's on the right oh I see you
• 1:21:15
  talking about a different camp no but in that in the in the anti Netanyahu camp let's call it for
• 1:21:20
  all I see yes yes okay you have the opposition yes the opposition thank you you have a mix of
• 1:21:27
  enough tally Bennett on the right and now Vigdor Lieberman who's a little more centrist but also
• 1:21:31
  right wing but then you have Lapid Gantz Eisenkott yeah your golaw names that not everyone might know
• 1:21:36
  were more on the left so it's it's it's a bit of a a smorgasbore of different leaders that kind
• 1:21:43
  of ranges from the right to the left but it's more center and it does lean a bit more to the left
• 1:21:48
  but what it makes no difference I think the vast majority of Israelis are there they are there
• 1:21:54
  and and I think that they are the Israelis who we also have to remember they're the Israelis who
• 1:21:59
  are serving they're the Israelis who are working Netanyahu's coalition today is made up of the
• 1:22:06
  ultra orthodox who don't serve and don't work right they aren't the backbone of this country the
• 1:22:11
  backbone of this country are those people and if those people if they can form that government if
• 1:22:15
  they can win that election I think we can we can put out a vision that takes us in that
• 1:22:22
  direction and hopefully I listen I hope and pray that that's possible because if we miss this
• 1:22:26
  opportunity we will it could lead us to crying for generations I think it is such a hope of mine
• 1:22:36
  that the people who've spent the past two years posting videos on Instagram about how if you're
• 1:22:42
  morally enlightened then you have to be an anti Zionist at this point because look at all the
• 1:22:45
  dead guys and babies that they end up realizing that they were on the side of on the wrong side of
• 1:22:54
  a Palestinian state and on the wrong side of the best interest of the Palestinian people and on the
• 1:22:58
  wrong side of what ended up being a better and more peaceful Middle East so I thank you for
• 1:23:07
  it's rare that I go into a conversation about this particular topic with someone in Israel
• 1:23:12
  expecting to end on a sunny note but you did it it's it's actually optimistic maybe we'll get there
• 1:23:19
  y'all it's lovely to meet you think so thanks be it time thank you Josh great to be with you