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Gay Men Over 50: It’s Never Too Late to Reinvent Yourself · The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Lauren Crawford.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for gay men over 50 who sense there's more to this stage of life than we've been taught.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: More connection, meaning, honesty, and possibility.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode is a conversation with a thoughtful gay man who's navigating the deeper questions that often emerge in the second half of life: aging, identity, purpose, belonging, reinvention, community, love, and living consciously.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: These are not conversations about decline, they're conversations about becoming.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you're here.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Ray Abell today.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And before I introduce Ray, I just want to remind us that we're here having these conversations with these amazing men, not because they're celebrities or not because they've got it all figured out, but because they've got a beautiful story to tell.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're doing great work.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe in telling their stories, they can inspire some of us who may be struggling a little bit trying to figure out what the next step is going to look like into what that may be.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: So let me tell you a little bit about Ray.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Ray is a hypnotherapist and positivity coach, working mainly with LGBTQ community and specializing in gay men's issues.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love that.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let's have Ray tell us a little bit more about himself.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, Ray, where are you at in your life right now?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Give us a little bit of your background.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I had been a realtor for over 20 years.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And around COVID, I kind of, you know, you know, we were in the house and I had a lot of time to reflect and think.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I sort of went through, you know, of uh this process where I felt like I, you know, I didn't really want to go back to doing that and do it for the rest of my life.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I went through my own sort of personal journey.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Through that journey, I discovered hypnotherapy.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wow, I mean, it blew me away.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I had been, you know, to many therapists throughout the years.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I had a lot of death in my family, of course, growing up gay.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it really was a bit of a deeper way to heal, this like sort of subconscious healing.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it really just changed me.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided that, you know, I didn't want to go back to real estate.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to sort of introduce and help other people that were sort of struggling the way that I was.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really what started me on my whole journey.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went to school and you know, hypnotherapy school and had to start a business and do all of that, you know, kind of stuff and rediscover, discover new things like being a social media person that I never wanted to do.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been a real journey.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: This whole we're gonna dive more into that in a minute because I think we're already talking about the big pivot, right?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Before we do that, so you were a successful realtor.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you situated?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: New York City, actually.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: New York City.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And leading up to that, so was there COVID kind of shifted gears for you a little bit?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Was there any inkling prior to that that maybe there there needed to be a shift or or was that something that was more triggered by by the whole pandemic situation?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I definitely was starting to feel like it was becoming less rewarding.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know it was like, okay, you know, like I had been doing it since I was in my early 20s.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when you're in your mid-40s, you know, it's a long time to do the same thing.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was feeling that a little bit, but the money was good and it's what I knew, and it was easy to just continue, you know.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then COVID really, you know, threw a whole number on a lot of us, right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us experience bankruptcy, you know, lots of different things.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you're having this little bit of a of an identity shift or wanting to shift gears a little bit.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is really an important thing for listeners and viewers to consider because I primarily work with men in that midlife transition, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes exactly what you're saying occurs.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: We happen to have the pandemic as a as a catalyst for many of us to make a shift.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: But so when you're when you're pondering that, you've got a successful career, there's you know, money flowing well, you're you're in a comfortable lifestyle.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things that come up that maybe are are like the oh, you can't change?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are what are some of those sort of warning messages that you experienced?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it's scary treading into uncharted territory for the first time, especially when you're, you know, as old as you are.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've always sort of been someone who's worked, you know, as a realtor, you're working sort of independently, and I have some rental businesses as well.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was always kind of an entrepreneur kind of a person.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that wasn't the scary part.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it was it was the social media when it came to that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I did not want to be on camera, you know, that you know, related to the first time you heard yourself on an answering machine, yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Cringe, cringe city, and then this is you know, not just people you know calling you, you know, it's your face and you're on camera and everyone's watching you, and you know, it's but you know, it was it was a lot to yeah, yeah, it is a lot.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've been through that myself.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's shift into the the the pivot then, and more specifically, we're looking at the wellness shift or you know, how you doing this work, this this inner work, and you discovered these tools and techniques and decided, hey, I want to use these to help others, you know, find their their true connection to self and all of that.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, in going through that, share with us a little bit about your own journey, and then we'll we'll talk a little bit after that about how you apply this when working with clients.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, my own journey really was, I mean, it it's it wasn't like a a you know, I stopped doing one thing, you know, there was a lot of mixed time period where I was still working as a realtor.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, I had to go to school in California for a month to learn hypnotherapy, all the techniques.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: The school I went to is actually in session for 47 years.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the few schools that in America teach in person.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I felt that was important to be in a cohort hoort sort of learning model for something like this.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, it was, it was, you know, I had just touched the tip of the iceberg with the hypnotherapy that I received on my own.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then going to school for it, wow, boy, you really go through every situation in life, you know.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain a little bit about hypnotherapy to us?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm somewhat familiar with it, but I'm sure some listeners or viewers maybe aren't.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: My exposure to it has been a little bit through neurolinguistic programming, and that's very, you know, like you said, a small portion of it.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So give us an example or tell us how this whole process works.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not anything crazy what you would expect, you know, by watching movies today.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's uh, then I have the eyeglass, and you know, it's none of that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's really just, you know, you close your eyes and you get into a relaxed position and you sort of turn inwardly.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the first part of the process is called the induction, okay?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is where I talk about relaxing things just to get you to relax and release and sort of let go and become a little more open.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's what it does is it sort of quiet down that conscious critical mind, okay?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you can sort of get to deeper, you know, subconscious places.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and we talk directly to the subconscious.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's so powerful because you could have problems and intellectualize them and know why you're doing what you're doing, and and and you know that you want to do something different, and then you're on that same pattern of doing the same old behavior.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hypnotherapy works on that pattern, the part that regular therapy and and conscious effort doesn't really affect.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why it was so much deeper.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt, and it's nothing woo, it's just you get comfortable, you you let let the hypnotherapist talk to you, and then maybe you you you you hear something, some information, you know, the subject matter, whatever you want to work on.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or if it's a regression, a lot of times we'll ask you a lot of questions about what happened in the past to sort of get to the root of where the issue sort of began.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like you're getting out of that patterned mental behavior.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, sometimes what we don't realize is 95% of our thinking is just recurring thoughts at the subconscious level.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: We think we're in so much in control of our lives, but a lot of this is just patterning and programming and the operating systems that we're running on actually don't serve us in many ways at this stage in our lives, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: So this is brilliant.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you're getting in, you're getting them quiet, getting into that level where they can access some of that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if I were seeing you, for example, as a client, what would it look like in terms of the journey?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, do I come to you for one session or is it is it does it take time to sort of delve in?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I my program is actually called the intuitive mind method.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to start you off with six sessions because most people will have a really good result after just six sessions.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you want me to break down the whole thing?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily, but just provide an overview, like so that people can understand.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think we understand the therapeutic model.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like you go to a counselor and you start to hash through your your your issues, sharing your life's history, and then and then there's an analysis portion of it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Cognitive behavioral therapy, you know.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So most of us have a sense of that, but I think the hypnosis thing is so it's a little bit different.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, so so just in terms of yeah, what might a few sessions take someone through or the journey, what would that look like?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, sort of the first session is sort of I I call it an anchor and pattern interrupt session.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: In this session, we're gonna give you something to use in the moment when you're starting to have stress, anxiety, or any sort of negative thoughts going into the head.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we're gonna give you a physical anchor that you're gonna use with your hand and something mental you're gonna sort of envision.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so those are the two anchors that'll bring you to your inner well of calm where you can sort of take a beat, take a breath.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And when you get that negative thought or stress, you can pause and you can think about the opposite of that and make a choice instead of one negative thought leading to another, to another, and having a chain reaction and catastrophizing or spiraling out of control, right?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first session.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: The second session is an age regression where we go back in time and we visit the root of where whatever issue is presenting started.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: The idea is there is a root in the past.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third session is the releasing and letting go session.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So whatever awareness that we gained from the second session, the regression, we're going to now release and let go from sort of the constraints that it's had on us.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so then the next three sessions are more on a positive note where we specifically work on what's what you need in the moment.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll develop a session specific to your exact needs.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: You'll write me a whole paragraph explaining what you're feeling, what you're needing, what's still coming up for you.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we work on those things specifically.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they are positive and they're meant to be positive to propel you to get to this sort of future ideal sort of version of yourself.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another part of it is listening to a recording every night that I give you, a self-hypnosis that will have you focusing every single night on where you want to be moving towards.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because naturally, most of us will think negatively, and then we're sort of intrinsically moving to that negative place.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to have the positive vision right here every day, right in front of your, you know, in the forefront of your mind.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because I know for me, and I do this work, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like your our brains are five, they say five to seven times predisposed to negativity and and critical thinking, negative thinking over positive.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this is this is gold, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I've tried a little bit of that in terms of listening to things as I go to sleep.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So wow, I'm gonna actually revisit that or visit you because I think that's hugely positive when we can start to see different versions of ourselves and not sort of like the fear-based or the lack-based kind of, you know, classic way of thinking.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, wonderful.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us then about say you've got a gay man in this demographic who's maybe uh working on some challenges and and and trying to figure out what are the next steps.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: What would that look like coming coming to you?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we we now understand the techniques, but what what might some of that, the outcomes be for someone like me who's kind of recognizing that I'm getting too stuck in negative thinking, seeing the glasses half empty instead of half full, all that stuff.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll give you an example of someone that I worked with recently.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this this is an extreme example, actually.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: This person was very depressed.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: There was there's some drug use, there's some sexual dysfunction where I'm very pro-sex and you know, but it's when it becomes a problem, is when it's a problem for you.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So he was having issues with having prostitutes and engaging in all kinds of dangerous sort of sex acts, and he didn't want to do it, but he sort of couldn't stop because he was in this sort of pattern of doing it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And after us working together, you know, he is doing amazing now.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I am I'm so proud of this guy.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he is he's going to meetings for sexual addiction, he's going for drug narcotics anonymous, he's going to move into Manhattan, actually, which is a dream of his for a long time.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he's really focused on just being positive and looking towards the future as and oh, what can I do to make things better?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's been a complete 180.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really just amazing.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's exceptional.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that that really speaks to me about that is when we have the right tools and the right guidance, yeah, our lives can turn around 180 for sure, and and and look like a whole new direction.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you work largely with the LGBTQ community, and you you mentioned this fellow, you said extreme, but what sort of patterns are you seeing that maybe people are trying to move through?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the common issues?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Shame.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Shame is a big one.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we grew up, most of us, not all of us, but most of us, hearing loads of negative comments, you know, whether they were directed towards us directly or about other people within the community.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that gets in your head very deeply ingrained.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So many people have internalized homophobia.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of things that I talk about, you will get gay people arguing with me in the comments, you know, that oh, not everybody.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of this is this internalized homophobia.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to give us an example of something you might post where people will push back and you you know from your training and your work that that's actually internalized homophobia.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us a concrete example or two?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly enough, I just posted something, I got my phone here.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Four things straight allies say that are catastrophic to gay people, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the first point is I love you no matter what.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: That could, you know, people when they're saying it, they're they're trying to be, you know, positive about it.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, but no matter what, like what what does that mean?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like implying that I love you despite despite this negative thing about you, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I get gays sometimes pushing back.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're you have victim mentality, you're trying to make everything a problem.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to bring awareness because these people are not trying to be hurtful, but it can come off that way a lot of the time.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're trying to, it's about educating the people.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you were supposed, if you changed it to race and you said, I love you, no matter if you're not white, that would come off a lot different, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can't people don't talk like that anymore.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: But about gay people, they do, they still do, and it's a problem and it needs awareness, and we need to change, we need to educate these people.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to me that a lot of us have those tracks in our in our imprinted into us from an early age, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and maybe the thing that triggers some people around that is like you're saying, the lack of awareness.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: We need education around this stuff.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But that it can it can almost be like an ick factor when you see that and and it's like, oh yeah, that I never thought of it that way.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and rather than just kind of like sit with that and and process it and learn and grow and expand, it's like I'm gonna push back at Ray and call him a victimized blah, blah, blah, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Which is not what it's about.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, bringing awareness to something is not being a victim, pretending something isn't there that is, that that's true.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's staying and being a victim, staying a second-class citizen.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I want my is to rise everybody up to be equal, you know.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if we avoid some of these issues and because they make us uncomfortable, for example, we don't grow, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: We stay contained and and and sort of caged in a certain way of of of being.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'm a tantric yogi.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, tantra is all about every tool that's at your disposal.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Use it if it helps you to benefit and grow and become the truest essence of your being.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I love I love what you're doing here.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Find the wisdom trust on school, school.com slash the dash wisdom dash trust slash about.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Website is wisdomtrust50.com.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Find us on Substack, the WisdomTrust.substack.com.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not watching this on YouTube, youtube.com slash at the Wisdom Trust 50.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: See you on those platforms.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me in terms of the work that you've done for you, for Ray, when you started to venture into this, what did this give you freedom from?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: What were you able to kind of leave in the past?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: It really helped me let go of a lot of getting so worked up.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: It really helped me to be able to manage my emotions, and that has been truly a gift to be able to self-contain and control yourself in situations that are heightened.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, obviously, I'm not a perfect person, nobody is, but I feel so much more in control of who I am now.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not afraid, I'm not fearful the way I was.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be afraid of snakes, I'm not afraid of them anymore.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be afraid of heights.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm able to sort of manage my emotions and be more in control of the way I react and behave.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really been a gift.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's super powerful.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: My understanding of emotions is to me, everything is just energy, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's that whole Tantra thing.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's we're just energetic beings and emotions is energy in motion.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so however that energy is playing out in the fear, you know, track of your mind.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you when you work with uh something like what you're doing, hypnosis, and you're able to move and and shift and operate differently, really the sky's the limit, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Snakes don't scare me anymore, heights don't scare me anymore.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can live a fuller version of yourself.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And how many of us could benefit from that?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Every single person, I think.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when when we've got, you know, a lot of wounding.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are a lot of us, even at this stage in our lives, in our midlies, who are walking around with a lot of wounds, you know, that you know, we alluded to this in the in your in the previous discussion.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: But and people when they're not aware of those.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Things they they don't necessarily understand how they're playing out every single day in terms of our performance, in terms of our relationships, in terms of our overall well-being, right?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So kudos to you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're able to have more of a regulation of emotions, right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're able to be more on top of that stuff.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that's that's played out in terms of moving away from well, yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think some of us, especially people in the LGBTQ community, we walk through life feeling heavy because of what we experienced as a child.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as you know, this covert cultural sexual abuse that's in Joe Court's book, Dr.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Joe Court, it really puts a name to what we experience as children.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, hearing negative things about gays, you know, in the background, or whether it's said to you or not, it feels very heavy to move through life with this, you know, on your conscience, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, being able to sort of let go of that a little bit and move more freely through life is is really that's also another thing that's really helped.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that, wow.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I that resonates with me so, so much.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when when people would come to yoga training programs, right?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I used to certify yoga teachers and such, and I'd say, well, well, we're gonna go on this journey.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't just about teaching a fancy yoga class, it's actually about shifting everything about within you.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get rewired, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do some of that rewiring, it does feel like we're lighter beings, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's a heaviness that kind of leaves us in some ways because we're healing some of those wounds, whether it's from being LGBTQ community members or whatever the case may be.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that lightness of being, I think, is really powerful.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sharing on the screen here a shot of the book that you referred to, the LGBTQ clients and therapy clinical issues and treatment strategies, because you referred me to that book when we first spoke.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I would recommend everyone listening or watching to find a copy of that book and read it, because it helped me at the age of 60 understand myself in a much more complete way.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually designed and written for therapists to help them become informed, not just, you know, queer positive, but to actually queer informed in terms of the work that they're doing.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's written in such a beautiful way that I think anyone could benefit from it.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it should be the Bible for every person that's a therapist or practitioner or a coach working with the LGBTQ community.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, every person that's gay to hear the stories of people like yourself and all the things that they've gone through, because it's case studies.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, this per this patient did this and this would happen, and blah, blah, blah.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so, it's so affirming to hear those stories.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And because a lot of us keep it all in, especially childhood.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: We don't talk about how terrible it was because we want to enjoy our lives, but the past has a way of affecting our present.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And just because we're not talking about it doesn't mean it's not impacting us, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of how our relationships, as I was saying, or or or like you were the the client you referenced earlier, all of a sudden you you realize you're in sort of sex addiction kind of tendencies.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, how do I get out of this?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did I get here?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so deep, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: But we can make shifts and changes when we have, again, awareness is the starting point.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then we start to develop knowledge and tools and and guidance along the way that can be really, really helpful.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me, you you did this beautiful work.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're working with others.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: What has this given you freedom to?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like how has it opened up sort of new avenues for you at this stage in your life?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I could do anything, really.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I feel like the the world is wide open and beyond this world too.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I really feel that, you know, I might get a little woo-woo here, but I'm gonna, you know, the hypnotherapy community sort of believes in this reincarnation, and we come into the world to have adversities and to grow our soul and raise our vibration.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And boy, us LGBTQ plus people, we're doing the work.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not an easy life.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't learn from an easy life.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the takeaway, I think, is that all this stuff that we're going through, it's for a reason.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's growing our souls, it's giving us compassion, it's letting us see the world through other people's eyes that are in pain in different kinds of ways.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just it's been amazing, really, doing this work and changing my life in this way.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what are what are the dreams for your your future?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you said you can you can do anything.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I know you're doing some really impressive work with with this new, you know, this new focus.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see that going?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy, right now, you know, I just want to focus on working with people and helping them.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: There could be a book in the future, there could be a lot of things, but I'm just open and excited to help people and make a difference in people's lives.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what it's all about.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I I hear in you that there's, you know, using your experience and now your your wisdom around this stuff to serve, right?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: To help others, you know, in their journeys so that they can be light and bright.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the leveling up section.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: You just talked about, well, we talked about energy previously, and then we talked about being beings of uh, you know, multidimensional realities, different, different paths that we bring into this incarnation, all of that stuff.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, as energy beings, when we look at this, and the world's in such a shit place right now on so many levels, I can see this could be this type of work can be really, really impactful, not just for the individual, but for the ripple effect that it has in terms of, you know, people start to literally be lighter beings energetically, spiritually, understanding themselves in a in a more full way.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do that, we show up for others just by essence of our energy, right?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's contagious.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's contagious.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Positivity is contagious, just like negativity, right?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you have a choice which side to go to.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an important choice, and it's a choice that you have to make every day too, you know.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to go this way?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to go that way?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: What's going to serve me better in my life, right?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I know people hearing that will say, but Ray, you don't understand my situation, you know, and then the story comes in because we can get so enmeshed in our story, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or stories.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was that person for many, many years.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you would have said to me 20 years ago, it's all a choice, I would have told you to just, you know, go the other way, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: If people are in that mindset where they're not ready, how how do we how do we connect with them?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do we like in your reaching out through Instagram, for example, you post some beautiful stuff.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: How are you reaching folks so that they can maybe do a little reflection and say, I'm gonna talk to this Ray guy?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, people who aren't ready aren't ready.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: All of us, you know, whether you're a therapist, a coach, a practitioner of some sort, you can't make the change for the person.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can only be the guide.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the person has to be ready, they have to be ready and willing to put the effort in, and that makes the difference.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do it for somebody else, you gotta do it for yourself.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: The ready state, we we in some ways need to help people get to that ready state too, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, for me, no.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I only work with people who are ready.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not ready to do my type of work, it's counterintuitive.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be fully ready to do the work.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to get make convince you to do the work.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I if someone says that they're gonna be fine if they just if they stay the way they are, they're not a candidate to work with me.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: If that that tells me that you're not gonna put the effort in, you're gonna have to blame me for not having good results, and I don't even want to touch it.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So for what I do personally, the person has to be ready to make changes, you have to be fed up with the status quo and ready to change and do something different.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I see that playing out where over the years I've had people bring friends to yoga class, right?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, come to Lauren's yoga class.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: I really like him.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's a great teacher.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're kind of like, eh, and they never come back.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, because they weren't ready for that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't their time.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's that old adage, too, that when the when the student is ready, the teacher will show up.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's been the case for me throughout my life.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like the right people have shown up at the right time when I was like ready, ready to receive.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that is that ready state is an interesting one.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and getting there definitely can be a challenge, but I guess that's what life is about, you know, to get as prepared for that.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at you again.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And how how are you serving Ray?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: How are you showing up and having fun at this stage in your life?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: What what is what is lighting you up?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: What's lighting me up?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: What's lighting me up is just being able to spend as much time of my free time with friends and family.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, this doing this work right now and getting myself out there on social media and having some success finally has really been very rewarding because I've been putting a lot of work into it for a while and I'm just starting to reap the benefits.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels really freaking good.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I love that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and so anyone watching or listening who might be considering shifting into a new venture at this stage in your life, yeah, it's gonna take a little bit of time.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: There is always a, you know, an uphill trajectory when you're doing something new.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: But when the rewards start to arrive, this is when it feels really, really wonderful, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: When we when we can be excited about getting out of bed in the morning because we're loving what we're doing, that's a gift.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: It is, truly is, yeah.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a message too that I think is important for folks when you are maybe in that place of uncertainty because that negative chatter in the mind, that avoider kind of in positive intelligence, we would call it avoider saboteur.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's akin to self-doubt, you know, of whether I could do something.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm too old to make a change.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, this is life, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about choices and it's all about showing up and lighting up and becoming that version of yourself that maybe you didn't even think you could become.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good point.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've done that.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like your story inspires me, just hearing it, and and how you've made this huge pivot.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And here you are, you know, powerfully, wonderfully impacting others' lives.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you're still in a big, a big journey, right?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: But life is a series of learnings, and from those learnings, we develop wisdom.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: So at this stage of the conversation, what are some wisdom, some or wisdom nuggets, even that you would like to share with the listener, the viewer?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: You it's never too late, and you're never too old.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: You can do anything that you want if you put your mind, body, and soul into it.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're unstoppable, but you need those three forces together.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've seen I've I've worked with men in their 80s, I've had clients in their 80s that turn around and change their mindset.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's all about how you view things.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: You could have two people with the same exact life, and one person views the life as positive, and the other views it as negative, and all things otherwise are the same.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it really, really, you have to just have that mind shift, you know.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you're never too it's never too late to try something new, you know.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's my little nugget of wisdom.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's great when you look at these people who started a whole new version of themselves in their 60s, which ended up becoming powerful big CEOs of companies, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like they didn't see that coming.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's just so great when we can have the capacity, like you were saying earlier, to be curious, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Be curious again.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: That curiosity and that that inquisitiveness of a child.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: If we can explore that and not get stuck in, well, this is the way it's got to be, because this is the way it's always been.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, you can leave the stuff from the past, it's it's there to help you, to inform you.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: But wow, there's so much more that you could explore in the future.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: So don't be shy to dream, right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Dream big.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wonderful.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I really want to thank you for sharing your journey with us today.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And people can find you on Instagram.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just indicated your handle there at ray.obel.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: What are they gonna find there?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of videos talking about gay issues.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Nice, as well as some other you know, issues.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do do some videos on topics that aren't completely LGBTQ.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's uh it's a lot of information there.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: So and it and I the same handle is for Facebook and TikTok as well.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And TikTok as well.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I would encourage you all to go look because Ray creates some really thought-provoking videos.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're short, they're focused, they're brilliant.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I applaud you for for what you're doing and how you're showing up for others.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again, Ray.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: This has been really sweet.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Lauren.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you to our guests today, and thank you for listening.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: If what you heard landed with you, if you felt seen, heard, inspired to make a shift, want to hear about it.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Get back to me on one of our platforms or where you're listening to or seeing this.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know another man over 50 who you think would benefit from hearing this, share it with them, please.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: This community grows when we show up for each other.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: You can find more essays on these topics, reflections, and such at our Substack account.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Watch for other content on our YouTube channel, and stay connected to us through our school platform.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we engage and are building our community.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, the second half of life isn't the beginning of the end.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: For many of us, it's the moment life finally begins to open up.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're not alone in this.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're in it together.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time on the Wisdom Trust.