Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Shipping’s Digital Ambition Is Outpacing Its IT Maturity, with Steven Hemmings
Transcript
- steve: if you don't know what's onboard a vessel, you don't know what type of risk you're carrying, right? And the cyber risk now, we're all talking about it, but eventually someone is really going to get caught out. unfortunately for them, I do hope that it comes to the press. And I hope that, you know, it's going to have to be a significant consequence because it's only then that the rest of the sector is going to pick up on it and say, that's definitely not happening to me. Nick Chubb: Hello everyone and welcome to Undocked. Good morning, Raal Harris. How are you? Raal: Good morning, it's up. Yes, I'm very well. Thank you. Nick Chubb: Good, good. And and a special good morning to you, Steve Hemings. Thank you very much for coming on the show. steve: Cheers Nick, thank you Raal pleasure to be here. Nick Chubb: l let's start with for anyone who doesn't know you, who who you are and and and and what you do. steve: Okay, so Steve Hemmings, I'm the client CTO for Insights EMEA Maritime team. with Insight now for coming up to three years. Background in enterprise architecture, transformation and digitalization in tech my entire career. We've quite a lot of fast track in that. yeah, that's basically me, father of two. Husband to brilliant wife and yeah, wake up in the morning really excited by what we're doing in the moment within maritime insight and with our partnerships with SmartSea and those more broader. Raal: The most resilient fleets don't wait for a cyber incident to start thinking about security. They design it from day one. Under NIS2, Maritime is classed as essential infrastructure, and IMO's cyber risk rules already require security to be built into the vessel's safety management system. Insight and Smart Sea help operators meet both by embedding cyber resilience directly into everyday operational workflows. So compliance isn't a separate project, it's how the fleet already works. Because the strongest fleets are resilient by design, not by reaction. Future proof your digital defenses with Insight and Smart Sea Follow the link in the episode description. Nick Chubb: We we get quite a lot of software vendors on on the show. and and so, you know, often they're they are thinking thinking about a particular product. It's very, very rare that we get what I would describe as a kind of like an IT integrator, not just actually on the show, but wanting to engage the maritime industry as a as a as a as a market. I I guess maybe that's a good starting point. Like What do you think has changed in the last few years that suddenly means we've got to start thinking about IT a bit more seriously? steve: What a great question to open up with. mean, look, first and foremost, you know, we've got into it because of our successes with the AROYA Crew Saudi program in 2024, right? I think for us, that really gave us an opportunity to demonstrate what we can bring to the market, both in terms of innovation and digitalization, but also in terms of the different methods and approaches that we can bring. And I think that that really then opened that conversation of, but no one else is doing it like this. Why isn't the IBMs, the E-Wires, the Capgemini's, why are they not bringing all of their weight and might to this? And it's because it's hard, right? It's not an easy sector to come into and say, we're going to really help you here, And some people will say, it sounds the same as the rail industry or maybe to some extent FS. Aviation has always had SITA right? Which I know will come on today, but maritime. this entire world, everything that we do, whether you're up a mountain in the Far East or you're on a beach in America, the whole world that you live and we enjoy and we experience is all driven by maritime. And people need to really appreciate that. And that's what us and the team get up for every day. That's what's spurred us on for the last two years of business development. And that's where we're starting to see the real The real gains now. Raal: Steve, we jumped into you coming into Maritime, but maybe could you just give us bit of scene setting around Insight itself and what's the history of that business? steve: Yeah, so mean, look, Insight didn't set out to do what it was, right? So it was actually set up in a garage in Arizona by our founder, who was selling hard drives. And that's how it started back then, right? People needed hard drives and supply and demand, and we built from there. Insight, where we stand today, is a Fortune 500. I think We deliver the sets of solutions and capabilities that people need. We focus predominantly on the mid-market and public sector here in EMEA. But it's the way in which we can bring together the ability to be able to service requirements for products, so your hardware, your licensing, your software, but with the services that contribute around that, so whether it's supply chain, logistics, integration, and then everything else from a project perspective. And we've really been on the latter part for services in the last seven or eight years. But now with a significant amount of investment around AI and the capability that we have built is astronomical. Like people look at me and they go, Steve normally gets on the bandwagon a bit too quickly and he gets very eager. But then when I, you know, I can open my phone now and go, but this is what I can do because I work at Insight and people are like, my God, that's game changing. So. I think it's that as well that, yeah, you're gonna put me on the spot now. Nick Chubb: Wait, like what? Get get your phone out. steve: I mean, look, right, so we're building our own internal applications and capability for agentic SDLC. So that software development piece, why do we need, well, look, we're always gonna need software developers, right, and that niche. But there are some aspects to this process that we can now use agentic AI to be able to support and be able to accelerate. So we've got that, we've got a partnership, and an arrangement now with Claude. I am constantly vibe coding now and I never really, really enjoyed it. I never enjoyed it coding, but now creativity wise, what I can do with Nick, you've seen some of the content, this pace and the way that we can reduce the time to value for customers and even for ourselves internally, which is great. Raal: I mean, you talk about a journey though, starting out making hard drives and ending up with sort of five steve: Yeah. Raal: coding enterprise architecture. I think I've actually got somewhere, probably in the loft, a couple of insight hard drives. I remember the insight hard drive. It didn't occur to me, didn't occur to me we're the same company, but that's pretty mad. Nick Chubb: Ha ha ha. steve: Right, okay, there you go, you see. so, but this is... Raal: mean, how does that, just to kind of get my head around the evolution of the company, how did you get from, from hard drives to kind of where you are now. And was that kind of strategic or was that just something that kind of happened? steve: It was like 1985, right? We started out on this journey and it Raal: Okay, yeah. steve: was always about product offering, right? It was always about who can get me that server, that disk tape, that piece of RAM, that CPU. And then over a period of time, you realize that the market isn't going to be like that forever. So we benefited from that in the United States and then we started to grow globally, right? EMEA, APAC. So we now have that global presence. But as we've also done that, we've come to realize that particularly in mid-market, not everyone can afford to do the things that they need to do. You need a partner. And so like with the NTTs and Capgemini and others that we can mention, we've understood that there's an opportunity there in the market to be able to deliver those services. And that's where our investment has gone into. And a lot of that, again, has been subsequent to some mix and acquisitions as well, right? So NWT, I want to say 2024, which was brought in our consulting and strategic consulting strategy and advisory capability. Amdaris one of the, you know, me as leading for software development. Again, in a similar period. Securo, basically out of APAC for cyber security. Inspire Raal: Right. steve: 11 in the States. We've really targeted to understand, do we have a gap or where can we further distinct ourselves in the market? Raal: wondering does that blend of hardware and software make particular sense in maritime because it's such a kind of constrained sector in terms of steve: Yeah, it does. Absolutely it does. I think when we reflect on IT capabilities within a typical type Raal: Yeah. steve: of maritime institution, right, and we will use the term institution, organization, I should say. How much investment have they honestly put into IT, right? How much, and that's not just... a that they've openly made. It's also about the restraints and the constraints that they've got from a financial perspective to say growing IT is not going to make a significant difference. And this mindset has carried for, you know, for decades. Now we are starting to see that actually IT is the one that is going to start to drive the business strategy even more so. And we consult all the time, not just in mid-market, but at the enterprise level as well, exactly this. And there are different research papers. So Harvard published a lot, MIT have published a lot around AI recently to suggest that it's actually IT and within Maritime we can then also infer to operational technology OT a similar type of behavior in which in a way it's going to infer and direct and influence this business strategy. But back to my original point, with the lack of that in IT investment, what's happened? It's probably stagnated. You've probably thrown some investment. You've never necessarily had the capability or the capacity to deliver on that project. So it's failed and everyone's got a bit burnt and a bit frustrated. But you know that in order to maintain pace, to be able to do what you want to do, even just to operate, you're going to need that capability. And so that's where Insight can step in. We started out, know, for the Arroyo as an example, with Columbia Group. We were just providing hardware to the Columbia Group for the fleet that it managed. And we built that relationship, or I should say the account team built that relationship. And so when they approached us to say, we're going to take on the AROYA and we're going to need a global partner, they understood us and our capability. And so we partnered with them throughout 2023. And in 2024, we said, right, well, if we're going to do this, we're going to do this properly. And we threw everything at it, right? There was a team of 60 engineers, architects, program managers that convened from across EMEA to a tiny little port. Bremerhaven is a huge port in Germany, And we lived and breathed on that vessel. No one else can do that, but they recognized that that's what needed to happen. And the lessons learnt now is what we are now taking out with our thought leadership and with our new solutions to the market to suggest there's new ways of doing things. And don't be hamstrung by... what you've already invested in or what you've already got, get the right partnership in place, you know, and you can achieve a lot, lot more. Nick Chubb: I in terms of those lessons learned, I've got I've got if I go back to sort of twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, I've got slide decks where I would give talks looking at how you make digital transformation work in the maritime industry. And the big case study I would always come back to is banking and the transformation that happened in banking in the UK in particular and the open banking movement and actually comparing banking in the UK to banking in the US, which I they've caught up a bit now, but banking in the US sort of back in the twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, was was terrible. and I know well part one of the reasons I want you to you to come on the show is that I know that you w you worked at the Bank of England for a for a stint looking at exactly these questions of how do you how do you bring about these kind of open stand standards that everyone can contribute to and then and then benefit to to build kind of better banking products. So w could could you tell us a bit about that that process and that journey and then how that potentially that approach could apply to maritime? steve: Yeah, know. So, yeah, so for me, I joined the Bank of England on the graduate scheme straight out of university, right? And they're not going to give a graduate that type of huge opportunity or responsibility. But what I was coached into doing was actually participating and being part of that journey, right? So we had a number of thought leaders in this space from a technology or digitalization perspective who worked for the bank and they would consult and offer thought leadership to the wider EU and one of the EMEA banking sector in regards to standardization. And I ended up working with one of the guys in particular for a number of years afterwards. And what really came across was that it wasn't necessarily about the technology. In fact, it wasn't because anything was possible as long as you threw enough money at it at the time, right? Because it was just software development. What it was about was building the relationship and being able to foster this behavioural and this culture of wanting to do it and wanting to get out of it, right? So it was very much the softer angle that I learnt from that. And these huge papers used to be drafted, right? And you'd sit there and you'd be like, right, I've now got to read this and what does it all mean? And, you know, before I could turn to Claud and go explain this to a five-year-old, you'd be sitting there on Google trying to work it all out. And, you know, I admit to being... reasonably clever but it was just more work than it was anything else but you'd read these documents and they'd you know they'd go off to to Brussels or wherever it was they were convening and they'd come back and they'd go we didn't get past page two because all we did was talk we built those relationships and that rapport through talking and of course there was a lot of filibustering there was a lot of frustration but it was always progress and I never forget one of the things that was really talked to me there is is one percent every day is better than nothing, right? Because over a year that actually amounts to something. And these guys, and it will be the same for us in maritime, you might not fix the whole thing in your career. It's highly unlikely that we're going to fix this in our career span. But what we will do is set the foundation or at least set the tone for what is needed to follow. And for me, that's the inspiration behind it all. And that's what banking did. Nick Chubb: So w to your mind then, what needs fixing in maritime? steve: I just think Nick Chubb: Yeah. steve: we need more talk. I think we're doing a lot of talking now, right? So what Raal: you steve: you do with Thetius and Digital Ship, I think that's all great. I think London International Shipping Week, these events are starting to prosper the right behaviours and look, from nothing to where we are today, it's great, right? Because we're starting to talk digital. But I do think we need to start forming committees and we need to start actively demonstrating how the thought leadership can come to fruition And I think the key way to start around that is with crew welfare, you know, and we've seen some of recent publications that have come out. Stephen spoke last week on yours around some really interesting findings. Just pick one or two things, right? And just go after it Raal: One of the things you mentioned committees there, one of the things that's tricky with committees, putting it together, is sort of the mandate, you know, of saying who sort of owns this space, you know, to convene that committee, and then who is present on that committee. Do you have a kind of a sense yourself around who you want in the room? for these kind of discussions and what's your kind of draft steve: I think that's a great point. Raal: your steve: I Raal: kind of draft steve: think that's a great point. so I think you've immediately corrected me there, right, because I've used this term committee, which was this traditional type of makeup of how people come together and collaborate. I think I, you know, I'll correct myself. I don't think it is a committee. I think it's a community, right. And think Raal: Okay. Okay. steve: it's a community that then just fosters around some core principles. And it's as simple as that. Raal: isn't one of the issues with that you've got this kind of careful balance of stakeholders who have slightly different competing interests and trying to get everything. You mentioned crew welfare there. I think that's one area where we've seen quite a lot of progress and consensus, but I think it's an area where most people aren't trying to profit from it. know, most people are kind of agreeing that that's the baseline they're agreeing to share because they're sort of signed up to the idea that all crew deserve better conditions or whatever. Once you start getting into sort of operational matters, obviously there is more of a competitive edge and people steve: Yeah. Raal: are less likely, think, to potentially share. So Do you think from that that maritime has a bit of a problem sort of understanding where the ROI is going to come from, from IT investment and technology investment? steve: say yes, but I don't think it's... Look, I think for too... Too often maritime in general gets this bad press of it. It's done it to itself, right? I don't think it really has to some extent. So I think it's got some lessons to learn. that, you know... I think it's got some lessons to learn and it's got something that can go on. But yes, I think you are right that within IT there isn't that... immediate understanding, but there's new people that are bringing new ideas into the frame of the way in which we can start to drive this education, right? Those that sit in senior positions on boards or in C-suite positions, right, they're not going to know what they don't know. That's the same for everyone, right? So it's for those who are potentially wanting to get to that level in their own future careers or that just know that it's really important. to educate them that we start to do that, right? And that again comes with effort and comes with commitment to wanting to do that. Raal: I think when I started, the IT guy would normally be He would be a person who kind of Nick Chubb: In a in a cupboard. Raal: came in to check the projector was plugged in and he might get involved in a couple of discussions. And now you have chief digital transformation officers and big ship managers and things like that. I mean, we have made these big. big leaps, I think, but still I think, I mean, and I don't think it's unique to the IT side of things. I think generally in shipping, we're running on very small margins a lot of the time. And so the spend goes where that's absolutely needed. And unfortunately, you see a lot of IT spend or any technology spend comes from, you know, a reaction to a cyber security incident or a big failure, which actually cost the business materially and I think it's trying to change that mindset to be a little bit more focused on innovation rather than on sort of, you know, reactive stuff. steve: Exactly, it's what is the art of the possible, right? If I take a chief financial officer or a chief revenue officer, are they really going to be, you know, are they going to be sitting down on a Thursday night after a long day going, right, I now need to learn how AI is going to inform my business? Some of them might do, right, they might go to a seminar once a year, but in that seminar they'll be doing what everyone else is doing, checking emails, answering other calls. They're not going to be. proactively doing that unless you are one of the top 1%, right? And that's just, that's nothing against those individuals. I'm exactly the same, right? Nick Chubb: Can I ask w what one of the things that we see is that we tend to get phone calls from CTOs or CIOs who've come from outside the industry and then they they sort of step into maritime for the first time. I they might have worked in energy or offshore or something like that. They step into maritime for the first time and they kind of look around and say, This isn't what I expected it to look like in terms of, you know, kind of how the team's set up and what the budget's look like and all that sort of stuff. and I feel like the the alternative to that is that you've got someone who started in a very junior position in in IT, you know, twenty years ago when IT was less important, and they've been promoted and promoted and promoted and then they they kind of find themselves, I think, you know, often firefighting a lot. we know with a very small team trying to keep things up and running. Based on everything you've seen What advice would you give someone who's responsible for IT, either ship owner or ship manager, in terms of what the IT organization should look like? You know, what what should the team be? Who should focus on what? You know, what what does what does best practice look like? When the CTO comes in from outside of the industry, what's the sort of thing that they've left behind that that that functions really well? steve: this is like perfect time. It feels like you were inside my calls last week. So look, I go in and say, look, you really need to understand your landscape. Okay? So what does your operating model really look like? And what does your technology estate really look like? Okay, go and discover it. I hate walking into conversations and having to say, I know you don't know your estate and they nod. And some of them are really apologetic and some of them are like, F'ing unblinded about the person before them and I'm like, look, it's fine. But whatever you're going to try and do, you've got to go in there and make decisions based on the data. And if you haven't got the data, then you're not making the right decisions. So, you know, different consultancies have different models, right? But what we approach is in twofold. We go in and we just discovered a technical estate and we use reference models and an architecture lens approach for that. And then we do the same from a business of IT or an IT operating model perspective. What capabilities are you delivering or expected to deliver today? And we scorecard them, use a rag status, you like, red, amber, green, right? And we feed it back. And it's quite interesting. It's similar to what, you know, the thetas do at the moment where you do the benchmarking. When I push that back in and I say, In manufacturing, the score should be about 3.7. In maritime, we're still building it up, but I would expect it to be about 2.5. But, you know, I'm sorry, Mr. CTO, you're a one. That's where you need to start, right? So you need to get an operating model in place that's going to be able to support you in, you know, we refer to operate, grow and transform or operate, run and transform, right? Where's your activity and your energy being expended and where do you want it to be expended in the future? And that's where you can start to get really creative in terms of the way in which you deliver, the way in which you operate, who does what, but also where's the differentiator? Operating IT is not going to differentiate any organization. It's commodity now, in my strong opinion. What's going to differentiate you is that time to value. How quickly can that technology make a difference to your business? And nine times out of 10, you need the context of the internal organization to supplement someone who is experienced in doing this to come in and do it for you. And there's always, you know, there's always a bit of a challenging point. You don't outsource a problem, you fix it first, you know, different remarks like that. Absolutely. That's the same in any sector. But for maritime, people need to start getting more help. And that, whether that business comes to me or goes to one of my competitors, right? The importance is that we're showing a record, we're recognizing it as a sector and we're trying to take the right steps to change that. And over a period of time, all of the maturity for IT and OT will then gradually grow. And that's what we want because then you will attract more talent, better talent, you will retain that talent within the sector. And that again, is going to be really, really important because the sector doesn't pay very well, right? don't, didn't, you know, four years ago, if you'd have said, what sector are you going to focus on for the next stage of your career? Maritime wouldn't have been anywhere close, right? Now, you know, my wife can't take a book off me Nick Chubb: On the IT estate, I d I know of a of a CIO who came into a shipping company and kinda thought we need to do we need to get, you know, an an an inventory of of what all the IT assets look like and the OT assets for the fleet. And I and I think he assumed that was going to be like a ninety day job. and again c came from outside the industry. I think nine months later they were still still trying to get, you know, a a really clear inventory on one ship. and that's, you know, I think p part of the nature of the industry is it's it's not like a factory where you can physically walk around if you're the CIO. Like so h how how just starting with that fundamental, how do you actually get the IT asset inventory done in a way that is not massively painful? K is is it even possible? steve: Yeah, it is possible, right? So we've now, we've built the capability now where we can do that for clients using different agents and other tooling techniques, right? There's two things to be considerate of. Do you own that vessel or are you managing it on someone else's behalf, right? If it's your vessel, you've got more of a, you you've got less friction and less blockers. If it's you're managing that ship on behalf of someone, there is a whole value piece that you have to go and sell almost to say this is why I need to do it for you and there are some ship management firms that do this excellently we won't manage your ship unless we've captured that and it's all tied into the contracts. Alternatively sometimes you don't have that negotiation power but you still want to manage those ships and IT is not going to be the do or die in these contracts right and you have to recognize that but you go on it again you go on that journey and you recognize it and I'll come to a point, but to answer the question how we approach it is we have a single dedicated team that augments the existing teams. They talk through the methodology that we're going to apply and the tools and techniques and the timelines and we systematically work through. So like when we did the Aroya we sent a team of 16 engineers to the vessel and it was blocked up and I went right, open every single data center up. I know we've got an inventory, but I want another one. And the stuff we found was just unbelievable, right? They've gone, this is our inventory. And you're like, that was 10 pages, I'm now at 50, right? And I've now found a whole bunch of other requirements and other risks and other issues that we've got to fix. So there's different ways. And you also then look at, where's the vessel going? And what's the connectivity going to be like? Can we do this while we're at sea? Or do we have to wait until you're at port or dock? And we've built a pretty decent approach with a lot of support from Smart City to consider how we would do that in the future. And so when those opportunities arise and people need that help, we've got that playbook. Nick Chubb: And then once you've got that estate, you say I think you said operate, run, transform. Like steve: Yeah. Nick Chubb: d define those for me, because that's interesting. I've not I've not heard anyone use those those terms in that way. steve: Anyone in technology will probably say that there's different ways and means to it, right? So I'll start the last part. So transform is this innovation piece, right? How are you really going to change what you're doing today significantly? Run is the set of projects that you're doing that you just need to do. And the operate is just your day-to-day operations piece, right? So as you've got IT estate, let's say for instance, you've got 50 vessels and a small onshore corporate facility, you map that against that technical reference model and you say, right, I now know where everything is. And then you start to assess where does it sit in its life cycle? Is it end of life? Is it out of support? Does it need patching? Right. Is there a security risk around that? And again, we do this in all of the other sectors we know how to do that very very effectively and quickly as part of a single approach. That type of landscape if you like then informs what you need to do and how quickly you need to do it right and again when when the clients are coming to us we can say well what we can then also do is give you a rough order of magnitude or a ROM cost associated to it. the interesting thing as well and what's always been lost in technology is that's technology for the sake of technology. I need to go and put oil in my car because my car's going to blow up. But what do you actually need that car for? I need that car to drive to the station or to drive to my job. So if you didn't have a car, you didn't have a job, you didn't get the money. That's the value, that's the relationship that car brings to the value that it delivers. It gets you to work. What's that technology really doing for your business? So what we do is we do the net... because of the level of mapping up to the business layer. And we understand what's that business trying to achieve as a vision, what are its value streams, and how is that technology contributing towards that. So when we're putting forward which, you know, back to your point, fine margins, minimal investment into technology, with that in mind, our business cases always relate back so that people have got an unequivocal appreciation of this is why you need to do it because it's contributing to your business. And sometimes that work that... that investment never comes and that work never happens because it's never going to contribute. Right? That's fine. That's just part of life, right? But that's then the approach to be taken. We build out these roadmaps and these programs of work and then you go and you execute in different ways and different shapes. Raal: One of the areas that people are kind of constantly being told, you know, data is the new oil and all of that, you know, that there's huge value in data, but very few companies, seems to me, get masses amount of value from data. And in part of that is an architectural problem, it seems to me. But what's your view on that in terms of actually getting data really contributing, really working for companies and getting them to realize that promised value that they're steve: Yeah, Raal: told about? steve: I mean, look, for me, how I approach data is twofold, right? So there's data to inform your decisions, right? So there's an internal value out there, and then there is a value that that data has to the market. So in my previous role before Insight, I worked for an electric truck manufacturer based here in the UK, world leading in terms of technology. And we were going on a journey through different levels of funding. And one of the things that we had attributed was how much that data was worth in terms of what data the truck and the onboard systems was going to generate. So we did some work and at the time OpenAI was just releasing. So it was like, well, we might be able to do something quite clever here. So we were actually able to build a very simple agent platform. that took that data in and then was able to almost forecast which other sectors, finance, insurance, logistics, supply chain, would want that data. And then you start having conversations in, you know, with financial institutions and with hedge funds and others to say, we want you to put a value on this. And that value is astronomical, right? People are like, my God, because everyone will buy that data from you. Raal: But I think most people would be happy with the decision-making aspect of it. I steve: Yeah. Yeah. Raal: think that's where they normally expect the value to be. But I feel like, a way, in my experience, I've worked on quite a lot of, I didn't think of them so much as IT projects, but implementing various pieces of technology. And one of the things that occurs to me is that the fragmentation exists. at the data level and the systems level, but also at the organisational level often as well. So there's a, you know, there's a reason why you can't realise the benefit because even when you present the data, there isn't the mechanism there that departments are sort of working in that sort of joined up way that, you know, that immediately makes sense of something. And then that, to my earlier point about the ROI is difficult steve: Yes. Raal: because you're presenting them with a problem that they don't see that they have. But you're looking in and saying, well, look, these things steve: Yeah. Raal: are obviously related, but they're not connected on a KPI level. That sort of problem. Do you know what I mean? steve: I absolutely do. look, I think it comes back to, you know, we have to appreciate where people have come from and where they're going, right? So you and your day jobs, am I going to expect you to be data experts? No. Do I need to be a data expert? Well, yeah, I do. I don't confess to be one, but I need to understand data because it's part of my job. And the same thing applies to all those who are using data but don't know exactly what they're using the data for, right? It's just... They just develop this through doing the job and the muscle memory and sometimes being inquisitive. So I think like we're seeing in other sectors, there needs to be a stronger education that needs to start and change management process for others to realize what that data actually means and how it can be used. And people then start to respect the data. and they start to treat it in a way in which it should be treated and managed and governed. And then over a period of time, they start to see the benefit from it, right? But honestly, regardless of sector, which CIO, CTO, CDO, CFO or CEO is going to sign up to that? Because is it really going to contribute to a shareholder price or to that business being well? Well, there's some of us who know unequivocally it will, but probably not immediately within their... Raal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. steve: We're in there, you know, we're in their period of tenure, within their tenure. So why would Nick Chubb: Quarterly reporting. Yeah. steve: I do it? Right. Okay. But again, this is the whole mentality thing. And I think eventually with some of the key challenges that set that maritime in particular are going to have, I don't think it's something that can be ignored. I think people will need to start really looking at it and there'll be a number of lessons learned, right? The cruise line sector is already doing phenomenally well with this. Right. And I know people will say, but like cruise lines is very different to shipping and Cargo and fleet, right there is, but just find some synergies. I'm not saying that this is a like for like, but there are synergies and there are lessons learned. Raal: Well, you've just set something up very nicely. I'm going to have to chase after that because I've been asked to do a panel on this very subject of what we can learn from the cruise industry in the cargo space. steve: Yeah. Raal: Steve, me a bone here. Nick Chubb: Ha ha ha. Raal: What can I talk about on my panel? because you mentioned the AROYA if I pronounce that correctly, case study. us what, know, the good thing about, well, one of the things that interests me about cruise is the scale of it. And it's slightly, typically slightly more developed as far as the, you know, the ships are a bit more high spec and all that kind of stuff typically. So yeah, so in my perception, there is a lot we can potentially learn. What do you see in that sector that perhaps is yet to come down the pike for the rest of it? steve: think first and foremost it's the onboard infrastructure. Connectivity is making significant gains, right? So will we eventually be able to benefit more from cloud-based technologies while a vessel is at sea? Absolutely. Are we going to ever have 100 % coverage? Probably need to go and talk to Elon about that and work out how many more he wants to put in the air or whatnot. Connectivity is going to be the first thing, right? Then it's going to be onboard infrastructure and standardization and management of that is then what's going to breed a lot more of practical application of the new applications that are going to make a difference, right? So as an example, if you don't know what's onboard a vessel, you don't know what type of risk you're carrying, right? And the cyber risk now, we're all talking about it, but eventually someone is really going to get caught out. And unfortunately for them, I do hope that it comes to the press. And I hope that, you know, it's going to have to be a significant consequence because it's only then that the rest of the sector is going to pick up on it and say, that's definitely not happening to me. Right. And then in doing so, once you've got an understanding and appreciation of what you've got in your estate, the standardization and then the opportunity to manage that. Right? That gives you the foundation. And then it's, well, what else can I give you? So, you know, I refer back to crew. Well, in crew, what's the crew platforms that we can start to deliver? Viasat have been doing stuff for years, right? V Group do their own thing, right? Columbia do their own thing. But what else, you know, what's the next thing that we can start to do because the onboard infrastructure is now better? Not only that, but then you start to look at operational technologies, right? So, How can the operational technologies also interconnect with this infrastructure to give you more security, more awareness, more management of the operational technologies that you probably haven't got before, we did some fantastic work with HPE last year around a platform that we referred to as a solution accelerator called Maritech, which theoretically could connect onboard infrastructure and onboard operational technology together and give you a single pane of glass, right? And then we weaved in other technologies like those from Link Technology, so an exclusive partner to us, that was allowing us to then drive the efficiency of energy consumption and energy generation, right? So imagine if you are able to pick up a engine node was about to fail, but you didn't know about it because your existing operational technology systems weren't picking up on it. But I know from what I've got with Link that the reverberation, if you like, that's causing a problem there. But you can't get that in OT technology. But that OT technology connected to my sensor, connected to my infrastructure, that can tell you something. Raal: But is that the big distinction for you that you see in the cruise sector, that onboard infrastructure being steve: Sorry. Raal: of a significantly higher quality or well thought out? And if so, why is that the case? steve: think it has to be, know, when you've got paying guests on board, those services cannot fall over, right? So it just has to operate, right? Whereas if the crew welfare system goes down on a cargo liner as it crosses the Atlantic, so what? That boat's still going. There's no one really going to shout and scream about it. So there's that aspect to it. It's also the fact that a number of those on boards... platforms that are operating in the cruise sets are still revenue generating. It's more money that they can bring in, Raal: Hmm steve: right? And that becomes a really interesting part. So if you think back to data, right, and I've got a vessel, you know, we've got a cargo vessel that's operating and it's generating data in real time, but I've got the mechanism to be able to sell that real time information to insurers or ship brokers, right? Hang on a minute, I need that connection. I need that infrastructure. It's got to work, right? So again, these are the types of synergies and we have to make it, unfortunately, commercial. It's the only way. If people know that they can earn money, they're going to do it, right? That, think, is always going to be the biggest driver. And I'm absolutely comfortable with that. No argument against that. But it's for technologists like myself and like those that we're partnering with to come up with those ideas and those new business models and to bring them to the sector and say, look, Not only are we going to help you on your maturity curve, but we're also going to give you new opportunities as well. Raal: You mentioned cyber risk there and you just talked there about if a system goes down, then particularly in the cruise sector, there's immediate revenue hit. Of course, all ships are, if you take the safety aspect to one side, any kind of downtime or whatever is a financial penalty. You also mentioned that you hope that this gets raised as a and things like that as a bigger issue. That sort of implies that you feel that we're not as a sector taking cyber risk, you know, seriously enough. Do you feel that? steve: That's a really good point and I I think unfortunately, yeah, I do. Right. I see pockets of it. You know, I work with clients that are trying to, that are doing a significant amount in cyber and then I look at others that, that just aren't right. And that isn't to disgrace those organizations that aren't, I'm not sitting here, you know, promoting names or anything. A lot of it will come down to their own capability and the amount that they can invest into cyber. And some people, you know, that's the risk appetite, But again, unfortunately, I think with the risk profile and spectrum growing as significantly as what it is, it cannot be ignored for too long. And so, yeah, I think this is the immediate problem. And look, the new regulations that are coming out, that legislation, the new directives, I think all of that contributes. to some extent, but that's very much the stick mentality. Where's the carrot? Right. And so I think there's new ways in which, well, that creates the opportunities for us in the market to say, actually we can give you this carrot. Raal: I mean, just if I may, steve: Yeah. Raal: just for a couple of extra things that I'd love to get your take on, because already we've seen some big public, know, the MERSC incident was the one that sort of spiked a whole bunch of people's attention when they were targeted. But in the last 12 months, we've seen shipping targeted, militarily targeted, right? And we've seen We've seen certain governments considering those ships to be legitimate targets, which is deplorable, obviously, but it's happening. Asymmetrical warfare through cyber is happening. Meanwhile, we have things like, know, Mythos being not allowed to be released because of its ability to do cyber attacks. And so those things have been going on and yet I haven't seen a lot of raised discussion around the cyber threat to ships being raised significantly. steve: EY Raal: you see that as game changers this year? steve: Exactly. Look, there should have been game changes, but there's not been. Okay. And that might just be the mentality, right, that we've got at the moment at the executive levels and across, you know, the existing panels that we've got, the IMO and others, not to draw attention to it or that it's going to be managed in a different way. I can't, I couldn't comment there, but I do think that more needs to be done. I think the other aspects as well is who's really going to go and talk about what they are doing in cyber because they, know, even though it's not a differentiator, it is something that you want to keep protected, right? You know, I'm working with a client at the moment. They've just rolled out dark trace globally to all of their vessels. They're not going to go and tell anyone that because if someone finds Raal: Yeah. steve: a bug with dark trace, right, I mean, right, but. look, I think that's the main part. And then I think the other part as well is the education, right? So we do a lot of work, or I do a lot of work to understand how we can start to educate people more. I mean, when we worked from the Arroyo, we were hearing horror stories of there was one for a particular vessel. the junior captain had come to the ship deck and they were due to upload the latest topology information. He went to plug his USB stick in and someone just put their hand across him. What you doing? I've loaded it on here. He said, you've virus checked it? Yeah, I've done it on my laptop. Is that the laptop that we were watching the downloaded piracy video, the DVD from last night? Yeah, it was. He said, bring it over here and plugged it in. my God, but it's that Nick Chubb: Yeah. steve: level of it. People just don't know, right? And we really, we can't beat them for it, right? Because if they don't know, they don't know. And that's fine. But this is where the change management piece, we really need to get to grips with it, right? What's the awareness? What's the decision? How do we impart knowledge, right? How do we ensure that we're continually updating that and making it relevant to people? Because if it's not relevant, you're not going to... Digest it, particularly in today's modern society, right? Who can honestly take on board that amount of information? You're not going to do it. Nick Chubb: a guy I used to work for was a seafarer working on a on container ships and created an app to help get the ship loaded quicker basically and kind of gave it to his employers and sort of said, What what do you think of this? And they're like, you're right. So then he left and then started a company doing exactly that. and then f seven years later sold that company back to one of the container lines. and I think that's you know, it's a great example of i if if the if the company had taken him more seriously steve: Yep. Nick Chubb: as as an innovator and and tried to foster that internally, he probably wouldn't have left to go and do that. they probably would have captured all of that benefit much, much cheaper than, you know, sort of doing it through a through a commercial steve: Yeah. Nick Chubb: business. So that's that's quite interesting. I I think on the education point piece as well, it feels like the last two or three years, but particularly the last twelve months, I I feel like the the world has hit something of a kind of watershed moment when it comes to AI. We've gone well beyond the the the s the pace of change has gone well beyond what I think digital transformation did, you know, over the last few decades. How should let's forget the CIO CTO for a moment, but how should you know the CEO and the rest of the C suite be thinking about building a culture of adoption for these technologies and kind of embracing the technology rather than fighting against it? steve: What great question. I think it'd be easier to solve world peace than it would to answer that question. Look, Nick Chubb: Ha ha ha ha. steve: I think that you need to be pragmatic and you need to be able to put to one side maybe your traditional mindset and the behaviors and what you've experienced in your career and begin to say it's going to be new world order almost, right? And this is about the future and that future probably doesn't... include you as much as you might well hope and I think sometimes that's the blocker. But go and get yourself educated, right? You've got a network, right? Or approach people to come in and help you with that thought leadership, right? I mean, so much of what you do already is thought leadership, right? You're not doing it for any other reason than it's just helping the cause, right? And I think that... with what we're building, right? So we have a partnership, Insight and Digital Ship, and we've got Smart Sea and CETA, and all of the other brands that we're bringing in, like Spinnaker. We're again at this watershed moment where we are going to get enough names and enough of a network behind us that people will take us seriously to go, do you know what? I do want to listen to them. I am going to ask for their opinion. And then it's going to cascade slowly, albeit over a period of time. But at least that journey would have started. Nick Chubb: Interesting. Raal: One of the things that came up, that's come up quite a lot on the show recently through a few different avenues has been the kind of human dimension of technology rollouts. I think this is something that I think you've talked about, haven't you? That sort of, steve: Yeah. Raal: another underestimated part of transformation success with technology. What's your thoughts on that? steve: Absolutely, absolutely. If I take the AROYA as an example, we deployed 1,600 laptops and tablets across the estate. 1,600 on Nick Chubb: On a single ship. steve: a single ship. And that wasn't one for one, that was one for many in some cases. And we did that in three and half weeks. That is an awful lot of new devices going out to people. And what we recognize as part of that is people needed training. People needed to understand how they were going to use that device. So we partnered with, you know, the application provider at the time and others just to be able to build a very simple playbook that said this is how to do the basics, right? This is how to call up when it breaks. Or if this is your fault, this is how to restart, right? And little things like that. And even that change management, albeit I was sitting there frustrated like we should be doing more, was enough to get people to engage. And I always reflect, I was taught early on in my career, if you wanna do change management properly, learn from kids, right? There'll come to a point that any child can't take, they say enough's enough, right? And so when you look at a child, a child can take on as much as possible and then they just, they have a meltdown and my little boy's four. He has his big meltdown and he's like, it was all too much. I'm like, okay, now go and put that into perspective of, you know, a working adult who might have a family, who might have kids, who might have other responsibilities, Other stresses, other strains. And you're turning around to them going, right, now you've got to use this. Where's the change management? And one of the things that at Insight we do really well is we refer to the cart analogy. So on a journey of change, let's say putting in a new, ship management system. You're have the people that are pulling or leading the cart because they want the change and they can see the value. You're going have the people that are sitting on the cart that aren't really that fast, they kind of get it, but they're not going to put too much effort in. You're going to have the people at the back of the cart that are like, I'm sitting here, but I'm really not sure. And then you're going to have the people outside the cart that are almost dragging it back going, don't want this. And as you go into these programs of work, you need to be able to profile that. What do CEOs and the C-suite and boards need to What does my profile of organization look like? Am I change ready? Can I start to land all this stuff on? Because too many times they don't, and then you don't get a return on investment because people aren't going to adopt the tools. They're going to find ways around it. And that's the experience angle. There's three parts to the experience. There's digital, there's human. And then there's customer, right? The digital is using the device. The human is how I experience that day to day and what I operate. And then the customer is what does my customer get as an experience from those other two? Raal: Yeah, I think the other thing as well is it's like the value, getting the value out. If people don't use something or they use a tiny percentage of what any technology is able to deliver to them, then sooner or later, the CEO and the CFO are looking and saying that was a poor investment. But actually, it may be that the bit that they overlooked is what needed to turn that into a great investment. You know what I mean? And I think that there's just a bit of a... a block sometimes when it comes to technology, it gets seen as a technology problem and pushed down a technology route, whereas other things are picked up by the HR department as being kind of change things that are properly invested and communicated. And it's just about kind of thinking about technology differently. You know, fundamentally, know, technology has a just a it's just as important to win hearts and minds when you're putting out technology as it is with any other thing you're trying to transform in your steve: Exactly. And we eventually break this monotony of our bit is just tech. Well, to your point, I bring out a new process tomorrow that's got no technology and it's a bit of paper. You still need to put change management around it. It's just before in business, how many people really understood what change management was. I've consulted on too many programs where I've gone in as a consultant and said, well, the problem is not the tech. essentially change management process and they look around and we don't want that answer. Well, go Nick Chubb: Hello. steve: and get a new opinion. But that's my opinion and it is the facts. Raal: And the frustrating thing is, often that's a relatively cheap thing to solve, maybe not in terms of time effort, but like actual investment effort. But just in the interest of time, because I think it's an important thing that I'd like to get to with your experience. And that is, Nick talked about pace of change. We talked about, we alluded to some of the things happening with AI and how that's been game changing. But in maritime, have a very embedded base of sort of software across fleet management solutions, all kinds of pieces of operational software and stuff like that. There's a big legacy problem in there though fundamentally. And a lot of those applications that may be very sort of stable and worked over many, many years, aren't really able to take advantage of some of the innovation that's going on in technology. for example, in terms of you know, agent generated code, those kinds of things. That seems to me to be a really interesting pivot point and where challenges could potentially come in and be very disruptive. How are you looking at like the future and in terms of, know, what, what maritime needs to do to, kind of get ready to really, really accelerate and benefit from that future. steve: I mean, we could probably do a whole episode on this, but I think the two Raal: Yeah. steve: things that come immediately to mind is number one, those legacy platforms that you're probably running, the question is, do you trust that they're the right ones to continue to develop into this? And I think for too often, these organizations haven't transformed themselves, right? So they're not gonna be the ones, they're gonna want, they'll unfortunately be the ones that open you up to risk and cyber attack and hold your business back. The second one is, you know, more and more now it's what can I build around it? The good thing about these platforms or these applications is that there's still a single source of truth for your data, right? So what can you do? Well, you can slowly build around it. And Benoit Vardere from CETA talks about this all the time around, you know, the micro architecture, right? And that's where we're approaching it from, right? Very much the... We go into organisations and we run what we refer to as the rapid AI assessment. We will stand up a prototyping a very short period of time, supported by a business case with a return on investment and how to take it to production. Right. And people go, what's the point? Well, because you need something now that your existing platform can't give you. And we can slowly give you a path out of here, but without doing this huge, you know, monolithic type of change. The other part to consider is, and Nick mentioned it as well. What happened in the financial sector when this happened? The Challenger Bank came in, right? And look how successful they have been, right, in their platforms. And some of those banks, I know for a fact, are only hanging on because of the customer base and the demographic of that customer base, right? Because they've got a pedigree of the brand, right? But that's not going to last forever, right? The same will be said in maritime. Just the same as it was said in retail. and in leisure and hospitality and in manufacturing to some extent, right? Manufacturing in terms of set of platforms has undertaken significant change as well with PLM systems and others that are now contributing towards digital manufacturing. Autonomous vehicles that are going to come into maritime in whenever, you know, whenever they turn up, right? These new platforms aren't going to be able to maintain them, but they are going to be the future in a hundred years or 200 years time. So, okay, well, they're not in my... career span or in my lifetime, so I'm not really that bothered. Well, someone's going to have to be bothered eventually because it's going to happen. So it's all of this longer term vision thinking that I think is what I'm quite interested in. And what we call comes back to is this data backbone and the fact that we do need to start driving for some sort of standards because it's going to be pivotal to really embracing that change and that opportunity. Right. Nick Chubb: Steve, the I think the biggest message I've I've taken from you through this session is the is the importance of of talking. So w w if if people want to talk to you and get in touch with you about any of what you're working on, what's what's the best way to do it? steve: I mean, we can share my contact details. It will be going out via LinkedIn, so LinkedIn, otherwise steven.hemmings at insight.com. And look, it's not just me, right? We have a dedicated team of five that have been together since 2024. The extension of that team is also quite considerable. We're global as well. So we've got the ability to be able to talk right in different regions. And yeah, I'd never put off any conversation, but I think it's all going to be really exciting. And of course, we're leading up to Athens as well. We're going to bring some of our capability in droves to Athens. And I think that will really be able to demonstrate what the art of the possible is. So really excited about that too. Nick Chubb: Awesome, yeah. I mean that if if you want to talk to Steve in person, Digital Ship Summit on the fifteenth of October is the way to do it. yeah, and steve: There you go. Nick Chubb: and I'm I'm looking forward to seeing what what your phone is capable of by then. That's a few months out, so done. steve: It'll be an AI desktop with a price tag on it. You can buy this one today. So, no, but no, all good. Nick Chubb: So Steve, thanks so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate conversation. steve: thank you very much for your time today gents, was brilliant.