Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Nikhil Raval and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Nikhil Raval and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

0:15
Welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building Profitable
0:18
Connections. If you've wondered how leaders bring
0:21
out the best in people for every generation,
0:25
this conversation is going to grab you. Today's
0:29
guest works with the Gen Z, boomers, millennials,
0:32
and everyone in between. He doesn't play favorites.
0:36
He listens, challenges, and brings out talent
0:40
that was hiding in plain sight. He has shaped
0:44
leaders who went from struggling with communication
0:47
to becoming strong influences within their companies.
0:51
He knows how to handle conflict without turning
0:55
the room tense. He coaches decision makers to
0:58
work smarter with people who you think behave
1:01
and communicate differently. What I love about
1:05
his approach, it's simple. It's real, it's practical,
1:09
and it works. I'd like to introduce Nikhil Raval.
1:16
I'm sorry, I butchered your last name. I always
1:19
do that. But I'd like to welcome you to the podcast.
1:23
Why don't you give us a little bit of background
1:24
and tell me how you got here today. Thank you,
1:29
Michael. And that's a very kind introduction.
1:31
And so my story is really broken into two buckets.
1:35
grew up in Asia in India for maybe the first
1:38
15 years and then I migrated to the U .S. and
1:40
spent many years there doing education working
1:43
there a good decade in the financial services
1:45
industry and then in 2002 I went back came back
1:49
to Asia as it was growing and things were happening
1:52
and I said to myself I'll do just about anything
1:55
but I won't fall into teaching or training or
1:58
consulting and sometimes life takes you to a
2:01
path the path that you resist the most and so
2:03
there I was I had an opportunity. I dabbled into
2:06
teaching, training, consulting. And in my last
2:09
role, I was the MD of a company where we built
2:11
leadership solutions for leaders, very experienced
2:14
leaders, people with 15, 20, 25, 30 years of
2:17
experience across Asia. So I got a fantastic
2:20
ringside view of what a company is grappling
2:22
with, what leaders have to do. And in 2018, I
2:25
think I'd done enough and seen enough. So I went
2:28
to the dark side, which is on my own. And I had
2:32
a chance to finish all my bucket list, which
2:33
was to I delivered a couple of TED Talks. I managed
2:36
to do that and write a book, which I learned
2:39
how to do that. So that was on Gen Z. And then
2:42
from the Gen Z book, Michael, I really, you know,
2:44
what I noticed is that a lot of my consulting
2:46
work is that it isn't just the Gen Z, it's their
2:49
bosses and people around the whole ecosystem
2:51
are also all part of that. That led me to write
2:54
the second book, which is on multi -generations.
2:57
And like you, I'm fortunate to have run another
2:59
podcast, which is called Working with Gen Z,
3:02
which is fairly popular. globally ranked among
3:04
the top two, three Gen Z podcasting. So here
3:07
I am. That's great. And I, like I said, I've
3:11
seen the videos of your podcast. I was fortunate
3:14
enough to be on the podcast, but you have a huge
3:17
following and everybody really pays attention
3:21
to what you have to say. So whatever you're doing
3:23
it well and just keep doing it. Okay. I have
3:27
a few questions for you. You work closely with
3:30
Gen Z and other generations. What's one misconception
3:34
that keeps people from connecting effectively
3:38
at work? So, Michael, let me ask, and let's just
3:44
put this as a sort of a what -if scenario. Let's
3:47
say if I had to design a TikTok or a LinkedIn
3:51
campaign in your company, who would be the person
3:54
that you're going to hire? There's a good chance
3:57
that you're probably thinking of someone. maybe
3:59
in their 20s thinking that, you know what, that
4:01
person over there, I think he or she will do
4:03
a good job. And even while this may be just in
4:06
your mind, there is probably you made a kind
4:09
of subconscious decision of saying that, you
4:11
know what, there's one young person who's good
4:14
at this and there's probably another experienced
4:16
person in my team who may not like technology
4:19
and who may not be good with technology. So I
4:21
guess the first place that we often stumble into
4:24
this whole multi -generation conflict zone or
4:28
a situation where people start thinking about,
4:31
okay, here's my boss and this is what's happening,
4:33
is the stereotypes that we carry about each other.
4:36
And I can go on, but the stereotypes are just
4:40
that. They are stereotypes, right? I think generations
4:43
have existed for many years. In our personal
4:46
life, we've had to deal with our parents and
4:48
our grandparents, right? And so they come from
4:50
different generations. So it isn't a new concept,
4:52
but I think it just gets amplified in the workplace.
4:55
And more so with all that literature that's out
4:58
there, I think we'll talk more. more as we go
5:00
along that I think we can keep it simple based
5:03
on just doing away with some of the stereotypes
5:05
and what's even called meta stereotypes, which
5:07
means like I carry a certain stereotype about
5:10
my own self or my generation. And that's where
5:13
it all starts. So that's, I would say that, and
5:15
we can go into some of the stereotypes, but that's
5:17
the place where it starts normally. Okay, good.
5:22
I like where this is going and I could interject
5:25
a little bit, but I'm going to wait a little
5:27
bit longer. Okay. When a leader needs to build
5:30
trust with younger employees, where should they
5:34
start in the very first conversation? Sure. So
5:40
I think one of the things which is very important,
5:44
Michael, as we think about different generation,
5:46
and especially for, let's say, the Gen Z generation,
5:49
because that is the youngest generation in the
5:51
workplace, it's to appreciate the context in
5:54
which they're coming to work. And I won't go
5:57
into the details of the context of all the prior
6:00
generations, but the Gen Z generation, rightly,
6:03
wrongly, and we don't, I think they just have
6:05
seen enough within their 25 to 29 years of being
6:10
on planet Earth, which is to say that they have
6:12
seen a war, they've seen a pandemic, they've
6:14
seen the Me Too movement, they're seeing fake
6:17
news, they're seeing plenty, which often... People
6:21
will say that there isn't the traditional word
6:23
of the midlife crisis, but it's the quarter -life
6:25
crisis. And therefore, I think the first way
6:27
to start, if you're a good people leader, is
6:30
to just create the space for them to say that,
6:32
hey, listen, how do I build trust and how do
6:35
I make you more comfortable? And today in the
6:37
HR... world in the leadership space there's so
6:41
much being talked about psychological safety
6:43
and safe to speak but a lot of that will only
6:46
work in my view Michael if the leader or the
6:49
manager is willing to invest the time which means
6:52
that if he or she comes to your room if he or
6:54
she is coming to ask you a question and you disagree
6:57
with them or you don't kind of want to subscribe
7:00
to their way of thinking you still want to create
7:03
that space where they feel like listen I should
7:05
voice my opinion my boss isn't going to hold
7:08
it against me and gradually when you do that
7:11
enough you will see that trust gets filled and
7:16
i say that this is even more necessary today
7:19
because of where technology has taken us right
7:21
so if you see the curve of how technology is
7:24
quickly growing it is nearly impossible back
7:27
in the day when you went to the boss and said
7:29
i don't want a problem i want the solution today
7:32
the problems themselves have become extremely
7:34
complex so therefore it is in the manager's good
7:38
decision or in their interest to say that, you
7:40
know what, I think I need to appreciate another
7:43
lens. And the only way you can appreciate another
7:46
lens is for them to be open in sharing their
7:49
ideas. Now, at the end of the day, you may still
7:50
disagree with them and you may say, hey, I think
7:53
I've seen enough, but... And I appreciate your
7:55
input there, but I think on this one, we're going
7:57
to go this way. And it's a gradual process. I
8:01
see, and I work with companies, I think people
8:04
believe that this is something that's going to
8:06
happen in one conversation or two conversations,
8:08
but it's something that just takes time, a lot
8:11
of patience, and a lot of investment, I would
8:13
say, in the manager's part. Why don't you say
8:17
that it's a two -way street, that the Gen Z has
8:21
to begin trusting the owner and the owner also
8:26
has to begin trusting the Gen Z. It's a two -way
8:29
street. You have to be open to trust, but it
8:32
can't be one -sided. One side can't be open to
8:35
it. Absolutely. I think you make a good point.
8:37
And I think just to conclude that last point,
8:40
I do want to mention that it isn't all about
8:42
the managers not doing what they do. But I think
8:45
and I often say this to I often say this to the
8:48
Gen Z's in when I do workshops to say that, look,
8:51
you have a 40 or a 50 year runway. There is a
8:54
good chance you will have a millennial as a boss
8:57
or a Gen Xer as a boss for at least the next
8:59
20 years because that's their runway. Now. Forget
9:02
about whether you like it or not, but the fact
9:04
remains that they're going to be either your
9:06
colleagues or bosses or in some capacity, right?
9:09
So it's a kind of a two -way street where you
9:12
need to take the interest to say what inspires
9:13
them. Why do they want to communicate this way?
9:16
Why do they see careers this way? Why do they
9:17
see learning this way? And therefore, I think...
9:20
equally the flip side is to where the managers
9:22
need to think about that. Listen, if I'm an Xer,
9:25
I've got about 20 years or 15 years. If I'm doing
9:28
a workshop, there's a good chance that the same
9:30
workshop nine, five years from now, we'll have
9:32
more Gen Zs in the room than maybe the people
9:34
that are there now. Very good. Okay. Good. Okay.
9:39
So what's the most common reason multi -gen teams
9:44
struggle to work with one another? And how should
9:48
leaders respond when tensions rise? Yeah, so
9:52
I think, as I mentioned, one of the things that
9:55
leads to some of this is, and Michael, we've
9:59
spoken about communication and forms of communication,
10:03
but how do we get to build that sort of routine
10:07
of communication? But I think I would start with
10:09
both. the self -awareness which is the first
10:12
step this is to say that okay if i'm a manager
10:15
managing people of different levels different
10:18
age groups, different cultural backgrounds. Am
10:21
I self -aware of my strengths? In other words,
10:23
do I tend to default back to my old habits? And
10:27
therefore, I think the self -awareness becomes
10:29
the number one thing for people leading people
10:32
to say that, okay, are you reasonably aware of
10:35
your blind spots? And there are ways in which
10:37
you can minimize that. You can ask feedback and
10:39
you can do many other things. You can have instruments
10:40
and so on. So that is the first place that I
10:43
think the more we can become aware of ourselves,
10:46
the more we know. that, okay, what should I not
10:48
do when I'm in front of a colleague or a peer
10:51
or let's say someone that I'm managing? The other,
10:54
as we mentioned, is just the stereotypes, right?
10:57
Now, there are many ways to overcome this, and
11:00
I'll just mention very briefly a couple of ways.
11:02
So one of the things that I do is what I call
11:04
an assumptions audit, which means that if you
11:07
truly have a multi -gen team, Let's say you and
11:11
I are on a team and let's say we've got two other
11:12
people. We'll come together and say, okay, what
11:14
is the one assumption I've been making about
11:16
this person that maybe he's not good with technology?
11:19
And you keep, you floor the assumptions. And
11:23
I think you figured out a way in which you can
11:25
bring that into a conversation. Now you need
11:27
a good facilitator. You need someone to appeal
11:29
some of that. So it requires you to. put that
11:33
out there, which means there has to be trust
11:34
in the team. But the second step is what I call
11:37
adjust the lens, which means that why should
11:40
I assume that Michael is not good with technology?
11:42
Maybe Michael is more savvy than the Gen Z in
11:45
the room. And I think adjust the lens simply
11:47
says that we then get to know the person a little
11:50
better from what is happening. And I think that
11:53
there are the four things that one could do is
11:55
what I also call mutual mentoring, which means
11:57
that if I am good at something, Can I offer and
12:02
teach my skill sets or my expertise to the team?
12:06
And can I request and be humble enough to have
12:08
someone else do it the other way? And there you
12:11
have to be at least be humble enough to say that,
12:14
look, I'm going to shed my ego. If a 25 -year
12:16
-old person can teach me how to do a TikTok video
12:19
much better than, let's say, I, even though I
12:22
may have 25 years of experience, I think we should
12:24
just say, hey, listen. I think I need to learn
12:27
from you. So you could do some of these things.
12:30
Again, culture means new routines, which means
12:33
that it's not about just tall promises and beautiful
12:37
posters. It is about doing it, doing it consistently
12:40
and having ways to track it. So you're really,
12:44
you're saying it's a mindset shift that they
12:48
have to be open to the communication between.
12:53
their bosses or peers or something else. Because
12:56
if a Gen Z person walks in and they don't have
13:00
that mindset that they are going to be open to
13:04
these changes, they're not going to last, right?
13:07
And as the manager or the owner, they'll look
13:12
at the new hire and they'll say, this person
13:15
can't play well with others. So they're not going
13:18
to have the job for very long. So you're saying
13:21
that they should really open up a little bit,
13:23
have a mindset shift, and it'll go a lot longer.
13:27
Absolutely. Absolutely. And there are lots of
13:30
biases that we have, Michael, that could be another
13:33
conversation. But I think one of the most common
13:35
ones, I just want to lay this out there because
13:37
that what that everybody falls prey to is that
13:40
and certainly when we get more experiences. what
13:43
I call the confirmation bias, which is simply
13:45
to say that I have a belief in my head and I'm
13:48
going to look for data that just confirms that
13:51
belief, right? So if I have a tough assignment,
13:53
I'm going to talk to my three friends who will
13:54
say, hey, don't do this. This is not a good thing
13:57
to do. Rather than can I think about another
14:00
perspective? Can I welcome another opinion? And
14:03
I think for managers, for people. in both sides
14:06
of the aisle right they just need to consciously
14:09
build a habit to invite another perspective i
14:12
may disagree with them but i know can i the only
14:15
way i can appreciate like what is michael going
14:17
to talk about is to say michael i still like
14:19
to hear what you have to say you may have made
14:22
a decision and i think that is one of the things
14:24
that if we can just even work towards that that
14:27
can bring a lot of harmony and we can go from
14:30
friction to fusion Yeah, no, I absolutely believe
14:36
in what you're saying. But it's the people who
14:39
surround you. So you don't want yes men. You
14:42
don't want somebody or people to agree with everything
14:45
that you say because you're not getting anything,
14:48
any information that way. So if you get some
14:51
people say, look, I wouldn't do it that way because
14:54
I would do this and this. And you can say, I
14:57
agree with that, but not really. So I'm going
14:59
to do it my way. But at least you had a different
15:01
point of view. So you can judge yourself and
15:05
really for managers, supervisors, VPs, C -suite
15:10
people, you have to have a lot of those rather
15:14
than having yes men, right? Absolutely. When
15:18
I've owned multiple companies and we've always
15:22
had that opportunity to have people say, should
15:27
you really have done that? Because I would have
15:30
done it this way. And it makes you think. And
15:33
oh, you're right. And sometimes I had to go in
15:35
and apologize to my employee. But that didn't
15:40
happen too often. So it's just it's a mindset.
15:44
I agree. Does curiosity help a leader influence
15:50
without coming across too pushy or political?
15:55
Yeah, so I think the. The way in which we, I
16:00
just spoke a little while ago, that we think
16:03
about how we've gone from industry 1 .0, 2 .0,
16:07
3 .0, 4 .0, 5 .0, and what has happened. in the
16:12
shift in talent right so there was a time in
16:14
which we needed to have engineering skills and
16:17
engineering and math skills and standardization
16:20
but i think we're now there where i think one
16:23
of the biggest thing that the world is facing
16:25
every company every leader is every entrepreneur
16:28
is gonna face is what i call just the skill set
16:32
of learning agility which is to say that how
16:34
do i unlearn some of what i know and how do i
16:38
look at transdisciplinary lens up the way in
16:41
which the world is happening. And I think even
16:43
while we're now a few years from the COVID experience,
16:47
but I think COVID taught us that, which is to
16:49
say that like you don't, you cannot, you didn't
16:51
quite solve the problem by having a good vaccine.
16:54
You had to think about who's going to get it,
16:56
how are we going to ship it? What's the pricing?
16:59
What's the communication strategy? And therefore
17:01
you cannot say that, look, if I've made one good
17:03
vaccine, I've solved the problem. And I think
17:05
therefore. Curiosity goes a long way. And I think
17:09
if you think about the way in which technology
17:11
has grown, right? I think we've seen very few
17:14
inventions in the last 200 years, but we've seen
17:16
so much more in the last 30 years. And they say
17:19
that that curve is nothing but not linear curve,
17:23
right? It's just going straight up. Therefore,
17:26
curiosity to me is so fundamental today and the
17:30
ability to be curious about things. The other
17:33
day, somebody was telling me that Chad GPT can
17:36
actually solve and do better financial analysis
17:38
than the first year McKinsey consultants. Now,
17:42
if you're in that kind of a situation, what does
17:44
that say? That says that... I have to be curious
17:47
about either learning technology, I have to be
17:49
curious about ways in telling my clients that,
17:51
look, GPT is one, they're going to do something
17:53
here, but I am going to help you bring that other
17:56
element. It's a core competency now in what I
17:59
call the future of work. Yeah, I always view
18:02
AI or chat GPT as a tool, right? So if you're
18:08
a financial advisor, use AI. as a tool and you
18:14
talk to your customers because people still need
18:17
the people mode. They still have to talk to people.
18:22
People don't feel comfortable unless they get
18:25
another person, even if they're doing it through
18:27
Zoom, because here you and I are speaking, but
18:31
you're a person. So you're a person behind the
18:34
camera. So I use AI all the time. But I use it
18:38
as a tool and I use it as a backing for what
18:42
I'm saying and I'm talking to you about it. So
18:45
that's the way that I use it. You're right, because
18:49
the other thing that, Michael, what happens,
18:51
especially when we're talking about generations,
18:53
I almost empathize and most people sympathize
18:55
for the Gen Z generation, because here is a generation
18:59
which is. growing into the internet. I always
19:01
say Gen Y accepted technology, but Gen Z expects
19:05
technology. And I think we have to be cautious,
19:09
you know, while AI is so powerful and everything
19:11
that we don't become over -dependent. In other
19:14
words, you don't, in many ways, people say that,
19:16
look, you're outsourcing, you're thinking to
19:17
AI. And the other day I was reading, there's
19:20
an experiment done. I think one of the schools
19:22
at Caltech, what they did is that they actually
19:25
tracked, they did three groups of people. where
19:29
they gave a problem to solve the human mind,
19:32
the brain. And then there was another set of
19:34
problems which had to be solved through using
19:36
Google. And the third was using chat GPT or let's
19:39
say generative AI. And what they found out in
19:41
their brain movements over like the six months
19:43
is that the two on this side, which is the AI
19:47
and the Google, the brain movement, they were
19:50
shrinking in the sense that there was more atrophy
19:52
building to go because you're not using the muscles
19:55
or the cells. or the neurons. So I totally agree
19:59
with you. I think our ability to solve on our
20:02
own is so much more crucial and that human element
20:05
should never go away. Absolutely. And I've heard
20:09
of that study, by the way. So I know exactly
20:12
what you're talking about. But I've always been
20:15
in the camp of using my head because I have to
20:20
make the decision whether I'm going to use AI
20:22
tool, the AI tool or some other tool. And I have
20:27
to learn how to put them all together. I use
20:29
them all, but I put them together and come up
20:32
with my own decision. And that's what I think
20:34
separates us from the computer, so to speak.
20:39
Okay. In your view, what's the biggest mistake
20:43
leaders make when trying to communicate expectations
20:47
clearly? I think one of the things that you may
20:54
have read, there's a very good book written by
20:56
a gentleman called Daniel Pink. And he's written
20:59
a book called The Drive. And he essentially in
21:02
that book talks about what are some of the explicit
21:05
factors that are expected from an employee, like
21:08
when he or she is joining a company. And we all
21:10
have a list like salary and brand and this and
21:12
that. And he said that, OK, look, even if we
21:14
get seven out of 10 on a good day, that's pretty
21:16
good. But what matters to employees beyond all
21:20
of that is the ways in which we are giving them
21:24
engagement at workplace. And I always say, Michael,
21:28
fundamentally that there was a time in which
21:30
perhaps like maybe our generation, your generation,
21:32
my generation, like the way in which we looked
21:34
at work was that I gave time. and there was money
21:38
on the other side. So the exchange was time against
21:41
money. Now it's going where it's a more of a
21:43
value exchange. In other words, what value do
21:45
I bring and what value does the employer bring?
21:47
And that's the way in which people are looking
21:49
at it. And I think the biggest mistake that...
21:53
we tend to do is that managers tend to delegate
21:57
the responsibility, but not the authority. So
22:00
I'll just repeat that. Managers tend to delegate
22:02
the responsibility, but not the authority. I
22:05
want to tell the whole world that, listen, I'm
22:07
all for innovation. But the moment a team member
22:12
comes to me and says that, hey, boss, can I try
22:14
this a different way? You just simply say no.
22:18
Just saying this as a general example, because
22:20
there's always instances where you want to do
22:22
the tried and tested versus when do you allow
22:24
them to do an experiment. But it requires the
22:27
manager to let go, which means that they don't
22:30
have to feel so attached and in love with what
22:35
they do. And therefore, I think that is a growing
22:38
process. I've seen people with 25 years of experience
22:41
and holding on to what they know and not letting
22:43
it go. And it almost becomes their own sort of.
22:47
Yeah, ways in which it can boomerang to them,
22:50
which means they can't delegate more and they
22:52
continue to do the same thing. And therefore,
22:55
the way to overcome that is to make sure that
22:57
we give autonomy properly. We give them skills
23:00
to become good. We show them a purpose and why
23:03
it is. And then we provide the safety to do this.
23:05
Now, I'll just say one last thing. Safety doesn't
23:08
mean here that you don't hold people accountable.
23:11
A lot of times people say, hey, I want psychological
23:13
safety and I like that company and I like that
23:16
boss. But that is not at the cost of accountability.
23:18
You still hold them accountable. And I think
23:20
that's the distinction that people have to make,
23:22
that you can create a safe space, but you can
23:25
still hold them accountable. Absolutely. And
23:28
I want to bring you back about 40 years, maybe
23:31
longer. I went into the military and I was in
23:36
the Air Force and I was under the tutelage of
23:40
a sergeant who was my supervisor. And he said,
23:44
look. When you go out there, when you go out
23:47
and you go on to the base, you do perform your
23:49
duties, make a decision. Right or wrong, make
23:53
the decision. Because, listen, if you make the
23:58
right decision, fantastic. If you make the wrong
24:00
decision, we'll clean it up, okay? But you have
24:04
to make that decision and you have to be accountable
24:07
for that decision. So that should make your decision
24:12
-making process that much more important. And
24:15
this was taught like 40 years ago, but that was
24:18
the same concept because you have to not only
24:22
give the responsibility, but give the authority
24:25
to make those decisions. And that's, it just
24:29
brought me right back. When you were talking,
24:31
it just brought me right back to him. I was like,
24:33
oh my goodness, exactly. But it made me the person
24:37
I am today. And I think that would be very helpful
24:42
for a Gen Z person going into the workplace after
24:47
they've established themselves. You can't walk
24:50
through the door and expect this. But let's say
24:53
after a year of being in there, you're given
24:55
responsibility, but you're given the accountability
24:58
for it. Say, look, you're going to have to be
25:01
accountable for this. So you have to make your
25:04
decision. So I think that's a very good point
25:07
that you're making. Okay, if someone wants to
25:11
improve how well they connect with others, what's
25:14
a small daily practice that has a big payoff?
25:19
Michael, I was just coming back from doing about
25:22
four workshops for a very large conglomerate.
25:24
They're extremely successful leaders, about 20
25:26
years of experience. And one of the things they're
25:29
grappling with is just the fact that they're
25:31
good in their teams, but what is the value for
25:34
them to go out? in other words to go across and
25:39
I think it is as simple as understanding and
25:44
I gave lots of examples to say that look any
25:47
company that we admire today and the leaders
25:50
that we admire and i gave i just gave a couple
25:52
of examples like companies like google or microsoft
25:54
there were times in which many of their products
25:56
were independent not working together and not
26:00
realizing the potential but it's the people in
26:03
the organization some of the key leaders who
26:05
made that happen which is to say that they were
26:07
becoming a crucial bridge to some of these other
26:11
functions. And that simply can only happen when
26:14
you can build relations. You certainly don't
26:16
have authority over three product lines, but
26:18
if I just build relations with you and let's
26:21
say someone else who's holding another portfolio,
26:23
over time, people not just value my technical
26:26
skills, but they understand that, look, he takes
26:28
people along and he takes everybody along. And
26:31
I sense that I always say as our conversation,
26:34
Michael, which was that Networking shouldn't
26:38
be seen as transactional. Networking is all about
26:42
a longitudinal game, which means that I attend
26:45
conferences or I go and spend a day in my colleague's
26:49
office and say, hey, what is it that they're
26:51
doing? And I read up on something and I make
26:55
a brand. But at the end of the day, remember,
26:58
you're doing this. To expect something next three
27:02
months, six months, that's just the wrong way
27:03
of looking at it. And I always say that I think
27:06
the more you can take the more mature view of
27:09
building relations in an organization, it almost
27:12
becomes your coalition or your bench or your
27:15
championship support, which is there in the background
27:19
without coming in the foreground. But when the
27:21
pyramid gets smaller, it's those people whom
27:25
you build relations will come and step up and
27:27
say that, you know what? Michael is a super guy.
27:29
I know him. He's worked hard. Like even though
27:32
he was not directly reporting to me, he was always
27:34
willing to help. He was always willing to do
27:36
this. And I sense that leaders and especially
27:39
young people, Michael, I think if they can just
27:42
appreciate and take that view, that networking
27:45
is so crucial. And it's just crucial and important
27:48
even in personal life, the ability to build relationships,
27:50
right? I don't know if you realized it, but you
27:54
hit the core of networking. With what you said,
27:59
ever since the pandemic, networking was really
28:04
transactional. Before the pandemic, I feel it
28:07
was very transactional. I have a widget. You
28:10
have three dollars. You can have my widget and
28:13
that's it. But afterwards, it's become more relationship
28:17
oriented, more relational. And I used to go to
28:21
networking events. I was in a mortgage field.
28:24
I had to come home with a shoebox filled with
28:26
business cards. Look how good I did. What I did,
28:30
horrible, right? Now, all the people that I coach
28:34
and teach and everything else, and I'm mentoring
28:37
a few, when you go to a networking event, 15
28:42
cards, maybe 20, because then... I know that
28:46
you've spoken with them. You've created that
28:49
relationship. And of course, that builds up for
28:52
the follow -up, which is a whole nother story,
28:54
right? But it gives you the opportunity to follow
28:58
up with all these people. You create that relationship.
29:02
And when you create the relationship, you go
29:05
so much further. Absolutely. Can you share a
29:10
time when a mistake became the spark? for better
29:14
relationships or improved teamwork so it i think
29:20
maybe i can share times in which i've seen this
29:23
with clients right and i i again i go back to
29:28
say that in many of the companies michael what
29:31
was happening is that as they were becoming more
29:33
global the ability to communicate was becoming
29:38
harder considering time zones and all of that
29:41
the roles and so on and at some point companies
29:44
suddenly realized that look there has to be a
29:47
way in which we have to make this work because
29:50
you're serving a global client you're serving
29:52
someone who's across zones and one of the things
29:55
that they did is that they actually made 50 percent
29:58
of their sort of appraisal process to be like
30:03
having a weighted average of 50 % through the
30:06
team collaboration. So in the earlier world,
30:10
what used to happen is a lot of conflict. I blame
30:12
you that, you know what, Michael has to show
30:14
up at 10 o 'clock his time and I have to show
30:17
up at midnight my time and all these things were
30:19
happening. And I think it was, again, just this
30:22
whole view of how do we appreciate working and
30:27
making collaboration happen. and i just say this
30:30
more generally rather than quoting an instance
30:32
but i say that i think It becomes so much more,
30:35
again, that longitudinal view. I've seen people
30:39
when they have to do cross -selling as a skill
30:42
set, right? How do I know what is Michael doing?
30:45
What am I doing? What is the third person doing?
30:47
Then they go and spend some time, what I call
30:49
day in the life of a customer. And they together
30:53
then go and pitch to the client. And I think
30:56
prior to that, and I just, again, I say this
30:59
because When you're working in a silo matrix
31:02
situation, what tends to happen is that you're
31:05
in your world and you're doing your thing. And
31:07
lots of companies have what I call shouting match
31:10
cultures, which means that something happens
31:12
and something doesn't happen. Like they just
31:14
escalate and elevate and escalate. And that's
31:19
just the thing that that's the way things should
31:20
be done. And on the flip side is that I think
31:23
if you just have a way in which you can kind
31:26
of. Say that, look, this is the one way in which
31:28
we have to make this happen. And increasingly
31:30
now with so much work being done globally across
31:34
teams, right? So I say that those are two or
31:36
three ways or two or three instances where I've
31:39
seen clients where how do we get past these my
31:43
tower of excellence and look beyond. Good, good.
31:50
Okay. How do you help people handle conflict
31:54
in a way that strengthens relationships instead
31:58
of tearing them apart? Yeah, so I think so much
32:03
has been written on conflict and there are all
32:06
these stages of conflict that it's in a sort
32:09
of early stage and then it's brewing and it's
32:12
getting bigger and then you don't have the strength
32:15
to call someone out and then it continues to
32:17
brew and it just becomes so big and then it just...
32:20
gets to a stage where it's unavoidable or inevitable
32:22
and then you do the post -mortem and try to fix
32:25
that now a lot of what is becoming more popular
32:29
michael in organizations today is what we call
32:31
non -violent communication or nbc and the microsoft
32:36
ceo actually noticed this in his company when
32:39
he took over, when he realized that we're far
32:41
behind in our product strategy, which is to say
32:43
that we missed out on mobility, we missed out
32:45
on social media, we missed out on what else,
32:48
on search engine and so on. But what he wanted
32:51
to fix was the culture, which is saying that
32:53
every man or every person was for themselves.
32:56
And so what the nonviolent communication is essentially
32:58
saying is that I still communicate what I...
33:02
feel based on a certain need which is not being
33:05
felt. And there's a kind of certain process to
33:07
that, but it's just a very powerful way of almost
33:11
making sure that the conflict is not there. It's
33:14
almost like the pre -conflict stage, if you can.
33:16
And I think if companies and managers can start
33:19
practicing that, then you almost are, you're
33:22
sharing what you want, deeply waste on what you
33:26
feel without getting fit. very aggressive or
33:28
shouting or anything like that. And it's just
33:32
a skill. And I feel that it's such an important
33:34
skill today because even when people have to
33:36
give feedback in some cultures, giving straight
33:38
feedback is very easy. In some cultures, it's
33:41
not very easy. And therefore, people are moving
33:44
around and things like that. So this nonviolent
33:46
communication, NBC, is basically written by this
33:50
guy called Marshall Rosenberg, right? He's written
33:52
that book. And he just... says that, look, this
33:55
is a good way for us to do away with this whole
33:58
sort of sandwich feedback and becoming very aggressive.
34:01
And I think that is one very tried and tested
34:05
approach that many companies are doing today.
34:08
And that's so true. The culture of a company
34:13
comes from the top down. And like you said, it's
34:18
a skill that they have to master. You can't just
34:21
say, okay, I'm going to change the culture of
34:23
my company, and overnight it's going to change.
34:26
They have to practice. Now, the upper echelon,
34:30
the CEOs, the C -suite executives, even the supervisors
34:34
have to practice because the new people coming
34:39
in just say, oh, this is the culture, and they
34:42
accept it. but it has to work from the top down.
34:45
And that's part of the training that I give the
34:50
C -suite executives, because when I teach the
34:54
workplace, when I do a workshop for them, and
34:57
if nothing changes from up top, then what I'm
35:01
doing is for naught, right? It's not going to
35:04
do anything. So it's a skill and they have to
35:07
master it. And once they master it, then everybody
35:10
gets along that much better. That's right. Okay.
35:14
So people learn in different ways. How can a
35:19
leader shape communication so everyone in the
35:22
room feels engaged and understood? Yeah, great
35:28
question. I think one of the challenges that
35:31
people have experienced even more. pronouncedly,
35:35
which is the fact that how people see communication
35:38
post -COVID. And I say this because all of our
35:42
preferences of how we used to communicate and
35:45
what's happening because of the intervention
35:47
of technology has changed that. But I had to
35:50
do a workshop, Michael, I think in the middle
35:52
of COVID, how do you lead people in, how do you
35:55
lead hybrid teams? One of the things that I think
35:58
first, before we get to that is to be mindful
36:01
of the fact that the manager of the future will
36:04
have to lead people in these four boxes that
36:06
I give, which is to say that synchronous, asynchronous
36:09
on one axis, and remotely and together in another
36:13
axis, which means that I'm either on a Zoom call
36:17
or a team call, that's one, or let's say we do
36:20
a call and someone... picks it up as a recording
36:22
i'm in an office physically or i'm doing that
36:25
remotely and therefore you cannot take the view
36:28
that i'm good at one thing or used to lead people
36:31
you know being in the office like the world the
36:33
workplace is changing in a way that as a ceo
36:36
of microsoft says that you have to be good in
36:37
all four because the younger generation has that
36:39
has their context now generally what tends to
36:43
happen in the post COVID because so many other
36:45
companies are doing some combination of hybrid
36:48
two plus three five plus zero whatever it is
36:51
like whatever works for them in their own sort
36:53
of world which means that you should have a quick
36:56
sort of a protocol or a rule of like how you're
37:00
going to communicate which means okay if it's
37:02
an emergency You can text me. If it's a client
37:05
communication, we do an email. If it's a team
37:08
kind of a conversation, we can use Slack or we
37:10
can use Teams or we can use something. So I think
37:13
what works is defining the protocol and also
37:17
keeping in mind that every generation also has
37:19
a slight preference. Like I remember from my
37:22
time and I'm sure as you can relate that I preferred
37:25
writing emails and that's just the way I felt
37:27
that the boss should know and everybody else
37:29
should know. Over time, like I'm thinking that
37:32
maybe other mediums are like easier, maybe a
37:34
voice note. And I see and I learned that from
37:37
the younger generation. So I think every generation
37:40
has a preference, but the way in which you can
37:42
manage it a little bit tightly is to just have
37:45
a certain rule to say that, listen, if it's expected
37:48
to be, it's a client and expected to be written
37:51
in 24 hours, this is the medium. If it's less
37:54
than four hours. use a chat. If it is 48 hours,
37:58
use this. And I think if we can do that, then
38:02
just makes it easy. And today, most companies
38:04
are deploying technology in a good way, but it's
38:06
this protocol that needs to be set. Absolutely.
38:10
You first have to figure out who your customer
38:13
base is, and that's how they receive. What you're
38:18
saying, whether it's a group chat, whether it's
38:20
a texting, whether it's a voicemail, an email,
38:24
whether it's an email with a video, whatever,
38:27
you can figure all of this out as soon as you
38:29
figure out your customer base. Now you may have
38:32
extra people within that, but you have that customer
38:37
base and that's how you deal with them. So yes,
38:39
I agree. And I have to remember that every day
38:42
because really what you were talking about was.
38:46
When I do a workshop, I have to keep it interactive
38:49
and I have to keep it up to where they will all
38:52
stay interested. And if I'm talking to a bunch
38:56
of Gen Z or to a bunch of boomers, it's two completely
39:00
different workshops. Same information, but it's
39:03
completely different. All right. So let's bring
39:06
this podcast full circle. If someone listening
39:09
wants to grow their influence at work, starting
39:13
today. What's the first simple action that they
39:17
should take? I'll just say two things here. First
39:21
and foremost, a leader becomes a true leader
39:25
and revines himself or herself by... becoming
39:29
more and more self -aware. And this sounds very
39:32
simplistic, but I think as we see the outside
39:35
context changing, the inside context changing,
39:39
meaning to say that more people of different
39:41
ages are coming together, the external world
39:44
is changing in such a rapid place, like it's
39:46
becoming the perfect storm. And the more we know
39:49
that how and who we are and how do we show up,
39:53
for our customers, for our suppliers, for our
39:56
people, for our peers. It goes a long way. And
39:59
some of the best leaders that I can think of,
40:02
Michael, who work with global companies like
40:04
Unilever and so on, it's just their ability to
40:07
be flexible and adaptable. We often use this
40:10
line that those who are coachable are scalable.
40:14
So it isn't about 30 years of experience or 25
40:17
years of experience, but it is about, okay. Despite
40:20
the 30 -year experience, Chad GPT can make a
40:23
dent into your experience. So can you be flexible
40:25
enough, humble enough? So I would say that if
40:28
you can invest your time in self -awareness,
40:31
that is one very simple and an ongoing thing
40:35
that one can do. So that's just the one, but
40:37
I'll leave it at that because you asked me for
40:38
one. I think that's very important, the self
40:42
-awareness, because that will open you up to
40:45
listening. to listening, whether it's to your
40:49
manager or supervisor or to your peers, right?
40:53
If you open yourself up, then you will actually
40:55
gain more information. This was great. This was
41:00
packed with insights. The kind people replay
41:04
because it hit home. If you're listening and
41:07
thinking, I can use that at work tomorrow, then
41:10
you're already ahead. To our guests, thank you
41:13
for sharing your experience and your approach
41:16
to leading people with clarity and purpose. And
41:19
to everyone tuning in, pick one idea from today
41:23
and put it to use in your next interaction. Growth
41:27
doesn't come from knowing it. It comes from doing
41:30
it. Until next time, keep building relationships
41:33
that matter. Keep learning from every conversation
41:37
and keep turning knowledge into real progress.
41:40
I can't begin to thank you enough. But Nikhil,
41:44
if somebody wanted to get hold of you, if somebody
41:47
wanted your knowledge or to be coached or a workshop,
41:52
how would they do it? Thank you, Michael. It's
41:55
been a real pleasure. I've really enjoyed it.
41:57
I think we've talked about a few things which
41:59
I think are relevant for every one of us, including
42:02
us in our own profession, which is that how we
42:04
look at the changing workplace, the worker, and
42:07
the work itself. I think the easiest way for
42:10
people to get in touch is, I would say, LinkedIn.
42:12
It's today the most commonly used platform for
42:15
professionals. Look me up on LinkedIn and you'll
42:18
find all the other details. I have my website
42:20
details there. I have a YouTube channel, of course,
42:23
which gives you the the videos of the podcast.
42:25
And the podcast is called Working with Gen Z,
42:27
which is again available on the most popular
42:30
platforms as well. Look me up, LinkedIn, and
42:33
that should become your one source to kind of
42:35
find the other ways to look me up. Thank you.
42:38
Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
42:41
I'm sure that all my listeners took something
42:44
from what we were discussing and they'll use
42:47
it. Thank you again. Thank you, Michael. Have
42:50
a good one. Well, hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere.
42:57
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43:48
A huge thank you to our guests for sharing such
43:50
information. insights today. And of course, a
43:54
big shout out to you, our amazing listeners,
43:57
for tuning in and spending your time with us.
43:59
If you're interested in my digital courses, being
44:03
coached or having me come and talk to your company,
44:06
just go to Michael and fill out the request form.
44:10
Remember, networking isn't about being perfect.
44:13
It's about being present. So take what you've
44:16
learned today, get out there and make some meaningful
44:19
connections. If you've enjoyed this episode,
44:22
please don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a
44:25
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44:28
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44:31
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44:34
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44:39
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