Latest / Masculine Containment / 40 - The SWAT Officer Who Didn't Feel Safe at Home with Brotherhood Member Steve Anders

Transcript

40 - The SWAT Officer Who Didn't Feel Safe at Home with Brotherhood Member Steve Anders · Masculine Containment

• 0:00
  Welcome to another episode of Masculine Containment.
• 0:02
  Today, I am honored to have Steve Anders with me, who was a member of our third container.
• 0:08
  Steve is a career law enforcement professional and was very active in the container and has graciously decided to come here, share his story, and share what effect the brotherhood had on him.
• 0:21
  Steve, thank you so much for being here today, brother.
• 0:24
  Thanks, Alex.
• 0:24
  I appreciate it, honored and privileged to share what I've learned that hopefully can help some other
• 0:30
  brothers out there start on the journey to, you know, just find containment in their own lives.
• 0:36
  Yeah.
• 0:36
  Thank you, Steve.
• 0:38
  We were just saying in the preamble, like in every container, there's some moments that stand out for me and your share at the end of the container really stood out for me.
• 0:48
  We'll get to that later, but I just want to let everybody know that it's coming and impacted me in a really deep way.
• 0:54
  So it was an honor, a privilege to have you involved and I'm excited to share your story here.
• 1:01
  Awesome.
• 1:01
  Looking forward to it.
• 1:02
  So let's go back to before you joined the container.
• 1:07
  Tell me what was going on in your life.
• 1:09
  What was happening for you before you came to us?
• 1:14
  So working in the field that I do, a very specialized field within law enforcement, working a lot of crimes against children to include police.
• 1:29
  child sex abuse material and human trafficking, had a lot of what I've identified as work-related trauma.
• 1:38
  And over the last couple of years, been doing some personal development and work on my own, but a lot of it was more from like leadership standpoint, trying to be a better leader at work and create a better environment for my team.
• 1:53
  Took some of that and applied it at home to personal relationships, not as much as I should have.
• 1:59
  but then started really getting involved with doing some therapy work with some clinicians.
• 2:05
  I had done counseling over the years.
• 2:06
  My wife and I had what, at the time, I would have described as just normal marital tension and stress and thought a lot of it was due to work because of the amount of work that I do and the hours and just the volatility of those hours, 24 hours a day, seven days a week as the need comes up.
• 2:29
  None of those therapists ever really landed well with me.
• 2:32
  It didn't really seem to help.
• 2:34
  So this program that I've been with locally does a lot of EMDR therapy, very trauma-informed, but also they are trained in first responder culture.
• 2:45
  Because unfortunately in the first responder field, whether it's law enforcement, fire rescue, you know, there's almost a stigma associated with asking for help or reaching out and dealing with mental health yet,
• 2:57
  You know, different studies have looked at that, you know, the average person probably has two to three critical incidents in their life that they experience in law enforcement over the span of a normal career, 20, 25, 30 years, as well as fire and rescue.
• 3:12
  You know, we're being called to generally the scene of someone's worst day.
• 3:18
  That might be one of the worst days for that person or those people that we're coming out to help or assist with.
• 3:23
  But we do that multiple times a day, day in and day out for years.
• 3:26
  And so that vicarious trauma builds up.
• 3:29
  Like I said, the average person in a first responder career probably can, you know, several hundred up to eight or 900 critical incidents that build.
• 3:39
  So I started looking for, again, that help in a clinician that understood first responder culture, as well as was able to bring in the trauma-informed aspect of it and help
• 3:51
  doing EMDR.
• 3:52
  So as I started working through that and dealing with stuff at work, we started to identify that a lot of my issues and responses and behaviors in my adult life, both at work and personally, were actually rooted in a lot of childhood traumas and issues and how I grew up.
• 4:13
  So had to sort of back up to do that.
• 4:17
  And, and been working through that for about two years with an individual therapist.
• 4:22
  Um, and then about a year ago at the same time, my wife and I started going to a couples therapist.
• 4:27
  Uh, and a lot of it had to do with, uh, again, a lot of my behaviors and responses, uh,
• 4:34
  that I've now been able to identify were coming out of trauma and they were central nervous system responses almost automatically.
• 4:39
  I didn't even know they were happening in the moment.
• 4:41
  And afterwards, when I was able to calm down and regular, I was like, what the crap?
• 4:44
  Why did I act like that?
• 4:46
  It was killing me that I talked to my wife the way I did or was short or dismissive or defensive, some blame shifting.
• 4:56
  Stonewalling was a big thing of me.
• 4:58
  And I've identified now that was just a defense mechanism going back to a lot of stuff.
• 5:03
  in childhood, which I can touch on in a minute.
• 5:07
  But we started going to couples counseling to try to work on how to communicate better.
• 5:13
  I was making a lot of progress as far as my personal work in identifying stuff, dealing with it.
• 5:20
  My therapist said I'd respond really well to EMDR, more so than she thinks a lot of her clients have.
• 5:26
  And I thought things were going great.
• 5:29
  Unfortunately, I don't think my wife was thinking they were as great.
• 5:33
  And then what led me up to the container was about a week or so actually before I saw some of your content coming across my social media feed, my wife asked for separation.
• 5:46
  And so obviously now I was in crisis mode again because I thought we were making progress.
• 5:52
  I thought we were doing well.
• 5:53
  I was, when we had what I would consider a rupture or repair or a rupture, I felt like I was making a quicker repair attempt.
• 6:00
  I knew internally.
• 6:02
  One of the red flags that I started to identify that here's all my signals that I knew I was about to lose containment, which at the time I wouldn't call, I wouldn't have called it containment.
• 6:12
  But just identifying, okay, something's coming.
• 6:14
  I'm going to respond the way I don't want to.
• 6:17
  And so I would have those internal victories because I could interrupt that.
• 6:20
  You know, I knew it was starting to come so I could stop it.
• 6:24
  So I thought I was doing really, really, really well.
• 6:27
  Unfortunately, also I've realized that.
• 6:30
  A lot of issues in my relationship with my wife is we've both been operating from different definitions and understandings of a situation.
• 6:41
  And I was never curious enough.
• 6:43
  I didn't even really understand what it meant to be curious enough to ask those questions of her.
• 6:47
  So, you know, when she said she wanted to separate, obviously now I'm in crisis mode.
• 6:52
  I'm now becoming laser focused on identifying what's wrong.
• 6:59
  where am I falling short?
• 7:01
  What do I need to continue working on?
• 7:03
  How do I repair this?
• 7:04
  You know, giving her space so that her central nervous system can come down.
• 7:08
  And maybe we can start creating, I can start creating opportunities for that emotional safety, which again, was something that I had not really understood.
• 7:18
  You know, as guys, we're not taught this stuff growing up.
• 7:21
  I certainly didn't see it modeled in my family between my parents.
• 7:25
  And so
• 7:28
  Being laser focused, obviously, the algorithm starts picking stuff up.
• 7:33
  It's almost like when you think about it, it starts showing it to you.
• 7:35
  That's right.
• 7:35
  That's right.
• 7:36
  So I started just looking at content relationship-wise and like, how do I take ownership of what I'm doing?
• 7:43
  What's the problem in me that I have to fix?
• 7:45
  Obviously, I can't change anyone else.
• 7:48
  So your content came up and you were holding interviews for your third container.
• 7:53
  And so I signed up for that and I was actually driving back
• 7:56
  I had like a three or four hour drive from a training that I had to do for a conference on human trafficking.
• 8:02
  And I ended up having a pullover on the side of the road because I got stuck in traffic.
• 8:06
  Thought I was going to end up getting back to the office in time to be able to clock out and do it.
• 8:10
  So I took my lunch break, pulled off on the side of the road in the parking lot and did the group interview with you to get signed up for the container.
• 8:19
  And I distinctly remember when you ask for some people who have questions, you know, I asked.
• 8:27
  talked about seeing how it fit with EMDR.
• 8:31
  Because I don't think you had mentioned that quite yet.
• 8:35
  And you said it worked great.
• 8:38
  You had a lot of experience with EMDR yourself.
• 8:40
  And I just broke down crying.
• 8:42
  I was sitting in my vehicle, front seat, with a laptop on my console, just broke down crying on a live interview with I don't know how many other men.
• 8:51
  we're on there and you, I'm starting to get tearing up a little bit right now.
• 8:57
  Your response, your response as a man sitting there with me, allowing me to experience those emotions again is what sold me on joining the container to do the work and learn how to do the work, if that makes sense.
• 9:20
  Yeah, I know.
• 9:21
  It makes all the sense in the world.
• 9:22
  I think now that you're saying that, I didn't think of it before we started today, but now I distinctly remember that.
• 9:30
  And like you said, I have a ton of experience with the MDR therapy.
• 9:33
  It's absolutely life-changing.
• 9:34
  I'm glad that you brought it up.
• 9:36
  I want a man who has the opportunity to experience it if possible.
• 9:42
  Absolutely.
• 9:43
  Let's go back to something you said, Steve.
• 9:45
  I think for a lot of men,
• 9:48
  Myself included.
• 9:49
  You know, part of my story is that Katie and I were doing work.
• 9:53
  We thought we were moving in the right direction.
• 9:55
  Or I thought we were moving in the right direction.
• 9:58
  And she let me know that she didn't feel seen.
• 10:03
  She didn't feel heard.
• 10:04
  She didn't feel safe.
• 10:05
  And if something didn't change, she couldn't do it anymore.
• 10:07
  And it was a complete shock.
• 10:10
  What was that like for you?
• 10:13
  She... Once I finally got it, I was like, whoa.
• 10:19
  Like now that I've got the bigger picture and I have a better understanding, uh, the grief that I had at how my behaviors had leaked out and how they had landed on my wife, how they landed on my kids.
• 10:35
  Um, that was, that was huge.
• 10:38
  Um, and yeah, I'm a big guy.
• 10:41
  I'm six, five over 300 pounds, kind of fit, kind of fat.
• 10:45
  And, uh,
• 10:49
  And like, I've never, I've never felt I've yelled at my family.
• 10:53
  I mean, there'd be times I'd like real sharp, Hey, a little bit louder to get someone's attention because my kids were dysregulated and I was just trying to break that cycle.
• 11:03
  Realize now that wasn't healthy.
• 11:06
  But growing up, my, my example from my parents of interactions was like pop in the lung, screaming, emotional breakouts.
• 11:16
  Yeah.
• 11:17
  I don't blame my parents.
• 11:18
  I understand their trauma from their childhood.
• 11:21
  So it's a, it's a reason I don't blame them.
• 11:23
  I've forgiven them for what's happened to me growing up.
• 11:26
  But that was my, that was my, that was my baseline.
• 11:33
  So I was like, I don't act like that.
• 11:35
  I don't scream.
• 11:36
  I don't, I don't throw things.
• 11:38
  And so I thought I was okay.
• 11:40
  One day I realized my now seven year old,
• 11:44
  he said something and I, I raised my voice to get his attention and I saw him in front of me shrink back and cower.
• 11:52
  I was like, Holy cow, this, this is it.
• 11:56
  I, I have to realize how big I am.
• 12:00
  And because I do a lot of public speaking, a lot of teaching, I, I can have a,
• 12:05
  We call it command presence.
• 12:06
  I can have a big boy voice without realizing it.
• 12:09
  Yeah.
• 12:10
  And so that, that was a turning point for me to realize, oh, how just, just my sheer size and how loud my voice can be through normal talking when I get passionate about something.
• 12:20
  It's like that probably lands completely differently than I think it is.
• 12:24
  So I started to look back and realize, oh yeah, a lot of my responses to my wife, to my kids were.
• 12:31
  that they were harsh.
• 12:32
  They, they probably came across a lot worse than I intended them or ever thought they would be.
• 12:38
  Um, and then actually understanding what emotional safety was and that emotional connection.
• 12:44
  I made some stupid comments to my wife when she tried to tell me these things over the years, you know, when she's like, I just want to be able to talk.
• 12:50
  I want to be able to connect.
• 12:52
  And how was your day and all that?
• 12:54
  And I was frustrated.
• 12:55
  I got flooded.
• 12:56
  I basically told her, I was like, I'm not your girlfriend.
• 13:00
  I don't need to be your girlfriend.
• 13:01
  You'd be whatever.
• 13:04
  And that was probably one of the most damaging things I could have said among a lot of things over the years.
• 13:10
  But what helped it click for me was understanding what emotional safety was.
• 13:18
  It was, for me, understanding that it's not her being safe with her emotions.
• 13:27
  It's me being safe enough for her emotions.
• 13:30
  that she feels that I'm not going to react.
• 13:32
  I'm going to be that steady rock the waves are crashing on.
• 13:37
  But for me, the best example, the best... Jeez, what's the word I'm looking for?
• 13:46
  I guess the best example or picture of it is being a thermostat instead of a thermometer.
• 13:54
  For me to be able to contain...
• 13:55
  and not let my emotions rise up and down like the thermometer based on the temperature of the conversation or the environment.
• 14:03
  I need to be the thermostat that keeps the temperature steady and cool, that allows my wife to be able to express her emotions with no judgment, without making it about me, without thinking it's necessarily about me, and just creating that calm, steady presence for her.
• 14:21
  And I have not done that in the past.
• 14:24
  based on my traumas and other issues, it always fed my shame narrative.
• 14:31
  And that ended up being the core of what I struggled with was just a deep sense of shame, unworthiness, abandonment, rejection, having to perform to be of value, whether that was with friends, with my own family growing up, with work, that my value was in performance.
• 14:49
  And if I did not perform perfectly, I'm not going to perform.
• 14:53
  then that opened up the risk for me to be criticized, to be told and reinforced that I am a failure, that I'm worthless.
• 15:03
  And I could not deal with that because of that internal shame identity.
• 15:10
  And actually, I think it was the week before we had that interview, I had my first somatic release during an EMDR session.
• 15:18
  I thought I was having seizures.
• 15:20
  I could not stop shaking and actually went over to the next hour with my therapist.
• 15:24
  She had to apologize to the next client because she was not going to let me leave until it was done.
• 15:29
  But after that, once I identified that shame identity and released it, you know, and as a Christian, you know, with my faith informing a lot of my beliefs, though, I haven't always lived them out perfectly.
• 15:43
  I had to realize and come to the realization and understanding that.
• 15:47
  That shame identity was rooted in things that were done to me as a child that were outside of my control.
• 15:52
  But they've informed my life up to that point.
• 15:55
  But that my identity is not wrapped up in any other person or human.
• 15:59
  That as a Christian, my identity is in the worth that God says I have.
• 16:03
  And that I was chosen and loved enough that he was willing to send his son to die for me.
• 16:12
  I don't think I could be any more chosen than that, if that makes sense.
• 16:17
  that clicked and it internalized, I felt literal weight, like so much weight come off my shoulders.
• 16:24
  And I always sort of hunched over.
• 16:26
  I always thought it was because I was so tall and having to look down at normal sized people.
• 16:31
  And immediately, immediately I started sitting up straighter, walking taller.
• 16:37
  It almost felt like a giant strap or band that had been around my neck down to my waist had been released.
• 16:43
  And now I could, I could just walk free.
• 16:47
  Um, so that, that was one of the turning points for me.
• 16:51
  Um, but in continuing to do the work and now looking back, just, uh, the grief and sorrow that I have for the hurt that I've caused people, again, my wife, my children, uh, coworkers, friends over the years, uh, my brothers, my, my parents, uh, it's, it's heavy.
• 17:11
  Um, it's heavy.
• 17:15
  I don't have shame associated with it, but the weight of it is certainly there helping remind me to keep pushing forward to continue the work so that I don't go back to that.
• 17:30
  And there have been some interactions and some experiences that have affirmed that the work I've done is real.
• 17:40
  One of the issues I had, I thought I was manipulating myself at one point
• 17:46
  into thinking I had done the work because they hadn't been tested.
• 17:50
  And then I knew a big test was coming up in a couple session.
• 17:54
  I didn't know exactly to what extent, but I knew it was big.
• 17:56
  And I had a lot of fear.
• 17:58
  Was that just a feeling you had, Steve?
• 18:01
  Yeah.
• 18:02
  You know, my wife and I had a conversation or two earlier in the week.
• 18:06
  I noticed something was really off.
• 18:07
  And this is post-separation.
• 18:09
  You know, I still go over to the house a couple times a week to have dinner, see the kids.
• 18:13
  They come over to my place.
• 18:15
  Right now, we're still doing couples therapy.
• 18:19
  And I just knew something was really off.
• 18:21
  And so I talked to her a little bit and I was like, okay.
• 18:26
  I knew we got a session coming up the following Monday.
• 18:28
  I was like, I think she's working on something that she needs to share.
• 18:32
  I think it's going to be really hard for her, especially.
• 18:35
  But I think it's going to come hit me like a ton of bricks.
• 18:39
  And it did.
• 18:39
  But I identified before going to that session that I was like,
• 18:45
  I was concerned about what might or might not be said.
• 18:49
  You know, sometimes our brains, because we don't have the whole story, we fill in and create our own story and we always make it worse than it usually is.
• 18:56
  Yeah.
• 18:58
  But I identified my fear was that I wouldn't be able to contain.
• 19:03
  And that would be proof that I had lied and manipulated to myself and that the work hadn't been done.
• 19:09
  And then what?
• 19:11
  If I feel like I've done all this work
• 19:14
  And I've made all these changes and improvement.
• 19:15
  And then the first big test comes and I fail miserably.
• 19:19
  What hope do I have?
• 19:21
  And so we ended up spending about two hours in that session.
• 19:25
  And there was a lot of heavy stuff that was brought and shared.
• 19:29
  Some I knew and agreed with.
• 19:31
  Others, my experiences and memories aren't the same.
• 19:34
  But I was able to sit there with an open posture.
• 19:38
  I was able to hear and listen to what my wife shared.
• 19:43
  I was able to feel a lot of what she was sharing and understand that what she was sharing, if that was her experience, regardless of whether I had the same memory or experience, if that was her experience, how awful was that for her?
• 20:00
  And how awful was I that I created that experience for her unintentionally or not.
• 20:06
  And at the end of it though, as heavy as it was, um,
• 20:11
  I also felt that it was a win for me because I just sat through and, and, and heard the culmination of 24 years of our marriage, uh, in relationship with some really, really heavy, hard stuff that again, I kind of had gotten over the years in bits and pieces, but seeing it in the big picture, seeing the whole thing, it was, it was crushing that I did that to her or that she felt that way with me.
• 20:39
  Um,
• 20:40
  But again, also the win that I contained.
• 20:43
  Yeah.
• 20:44
  I didn't get defensive.
• 20:45
  I didn't feel the need to defend myself.
• 20:47
  I didn't feel activated other than the grief and sorrow I had for her feelings and her experience.
• 20:56
  But I also didn't have shame about it.
• 21:00
  Not a negative shame, if that makes sense.
• 21:02
  Yeah.
• 21:02
  I didn't fall back to that shame identity.
• 21:05
  Yeah, I did some of that stuff.
• 21:06
  I said some of those things.
• 21:08
  I stonewalled.
• 21:09
  I became defensive.
• 21:11
  I had said things like, oh, you're too much, or it didn't happen that way.
• 21:15
  And I can see how hurtful and destructive that was to the emotional connection in our relationship.
• 21:21
  But I also realized that was stuff I was conditioned to do through my childhood.
• 21:24
  A lot of it was nervous system response that I had no control of at the moment, because I didn't have the skills or the training or the understanding or even the language or terms to talk about it and even address it.
• 21:36
  And through my own work with my therapist and the work through the container,
• 21:41
  the stuff that you've shared and what other brothers in the container shared helped me get to that point where I could hear that feel for my wife, validate her feelings, but not be broken by unhealthy shame.
• 22:01
  If that makes sense.
• 22:01
  I think it does make sense.
• 22:03
  How many, if you can kind of estimate how many weeks into the container was that session, um,
• 22:10
  That, I think, was the first week of June.
• 22:14
  Got it.
• 22:15
  Was that big thing?
• 22:16
  So maybe a month, month and a half.
• 22:18
  So like four or five calls in.
• 22:21
  So on those first four or five, I mean, it sounds like that, it sounds like first, I just want to empathize with you.
• 22:28
  I've been in those, I've had those, those, uh.
• 22:32
  conversations and they're incredibly difficult.
• 22:36
  And I think a lot of men, when they hear something like that, it's like, oh, so this containment thing is just sitting there and taking it.
• 22:42
  But, you know, in my, yeah, exactly.
• 22:45
  And in my experience, it's more, um, coming to a place of acceptance, coming to a place of understanding somebody else's reality.
• 22:52
  What was it like for you?
• 22:53
  You were four or five weeks into the container.
• 22:54
  Um, when I say, you know, a lot of men think it's sitting there and taking it and you say, no, what is it for you?
• 23:02
  So for me, you know, and we've talked about it and I know there were some brothers in the, in the container that shared that like along those very lines is this just sitting there taking abuse.
• 23:13
  And my wife is never, um, to my knowledge recollection, you know, it, it's never felt like a personal attack in the sense like I've never been, uh, during these times where she's sharing, when she was sharing stuff in counseling, uh, it wasn't name calling.
• 23:31
  It wasn't.
• 23:32
  necessarily character assassination or anything like that.
• 23:35
  It was, these are the behaviors.
• 23:37
  These are the things that you've done.
• 23:39
  And even outside counseling, she has said in the past, I know that this came from your trauma and your hurt, but it doesn't make it any easier how I've experienced it.
• 23:51
  So for me, at least interacting with my wife, I haven't felt abuse coming back from her.
• 23:58
  I know some of the brothers have, but I also now understand that,
• 24:02
  boundaries.
• 24:03
  I always thought boundaries were like, I'm controlling the other person, you know, like, like a ultimatum and it's, it's not, and you know, it's okay.
• 24:13
  How am I going to respond if a certain situation comes up based on my values and beliefs?
• 24:18
  So, you know, I'm, I understand that now, hypothetically, if that situation ever came up with my wife, which I don't think it ever would, because I don't think that's her character, but, um, I'm comfortable enough to know I can stop it.
• 24:32
  if it becomes abusive or if it did.
• 24:35
  And I've had it in professional relationships where it was starting to go a little way and I was able to knit that in the bud.
• 24:45
  Hey, I'm here ready to listen to anything you have against me or that I may have hurt you or done something that I'm not aware of.
• 24:53
  You can always come and talk to me, but we're going to talk when you can talk to me respectfully.
• 24:57
  You're not going to talk down to me.
• 24:59
  You're not going to degrade me.
• 25:00
  You're not going to dehumanize me.
• 25:02
  Um, so no, it's not just sitting there and taking it, but, um, I think it was in one of the sessions you had said the containment is not about containing the other person.
• 25:12
  It's containing yourself.
• 25:14
  And that containment applies in all situations.
• 25:16
  Just not hearing hard things from, you know, your loved ones.
• 25:19
  Yeah.
• 25:21
  Yeah.
• 25:22
  So tell us a little bit about that.
• 25:23
  You've alluded to it, Steve, but I want you to maybe, if you can, give some detail.
• 25:27
  What was it like?
• 25:28
  You know, you'd already, I mean, you've already done a lot of work.
• 25:31
  You're already doing EMDR therapy.
• 25:32
  You're already kind of coming to realizations, understanding yourself better.
• 25:35
  What was it like getting into the container, being with other men?
• 25:39
  What stands out to you?
• 25:42
  Well, what was helpful was some of the practical stuff, you know, some of the practical exercises.
• 25:48
  And I think that's a lot of what is a struggle for men.
• 25:52
  because we're logical.
• 25:53
  We want to find the solution.
• 25:54
  How do I do this?
• 25:55
  I don't want to waste time and energy on something that's not producing results or moving in the right direction.
• 26:02
  So some of the practical stuff tied into the knowledge and understanding was very helpful.
• 26:09
  It was also huge to see such a large group of men that had a lot of the same struggles, a lot of the same issues, a lot of the same childhood experiences.
• 26:22
  Affecting us all to different degrees.
• 26:24
  You know, there, there, there are guys in the brotherhood that I would look at and say, well, what you have is definitely hard.
• 26:32
  That's not what I'm going through.
• 26:33
  Then I look at other brothers, like there was some next level betrayal happening to them.
• 26:40
  I was like, good Lord.
• 26:42
  I am.
• 26:44
  I have a heart of gratitude that I'm not at that level.
• 26:48
  And my heart broke for those brothers.
• 26:50
  Yeah.
• 26:51
  And what they were going through and struggling with.
• 26:55
  But two of the lessons that really impacted me the most out of the container was, one, learning that I'm safe and self-forgiveness.
• 27:07
  So the learning that I was safe, it sounds kind of weird.
• 27:12
  I shared it, I think, on the last call for the container.
• 27:15
  That was the share that really impacted me.
• 27:17
  It impacted me so much I did a whole 30-minute podcast on it.
• 27:21
  Yeah.
• 27:23
  You know, again, being in law enforcement, you know, for almost 20 years, 15 years of that serving on a part time SWAT team with our agency.
• 27:32
  There's not a lot of things that scare me.
• 27:34
  You know, I've been in some pretty dicey situations, some pretty hard stuff and, you know, in riots responding to those.
• 27:42
  So not a lot of fear.
• 27:46
  And yet I realized.
• 27:49
  All those instances where my wife would try to bring something up with me or share a concern or an issue.
• 27:55
  I was like, why am I getting flooded?
• 27:58
  This is stupid.
• 27:59
  Like, just a really stupid, silly example.
• 28:02
  You know, I ran a food truck in a catering business on the side for like nine years.
• 28:06
  I'd be in the kitchen cooking and my wife would come in and turn the burner down.
• 28:10
  So you're going to burn this.
• 28:11
  The burner is too hot.
• 28:12
  It's too high.
• 28:14
  I'm like, I would get so pissed off.
• 28:17
  and defensive.
• 28:18
  And, but I would a lot of times turn it inward and I'd stone wall, I'd get silent.
• 28:22
  Or sometimes I'd go back.
• 28:23
  It's like, I ran a freaking food truck.
• 28:25
  I know how to cook.
• 28:27
  All right.
• 28:28
  I've won competitions for some of my cooking.
• 28:31
  And it's like, and what it was, was it, it was sometimes so small.
• 28:34
  It never should have bothered me, but it fed that shame narrative.
• 28:37
  And that idea that I was incompetent, not capable, not good enough.
• 28:43
  So, I,
• 28:45
  What that, through the EMDR therapy with my individual therapist, uncovering how that was tied to my childhood with the trauma, with the abandonment, the rejection, having to perform perfectly to manage my mom's emotional outbursts, to keep that from being directed at me, but also realizing that emotions aren't safe.
• 29:06
  I never saw or never learned healthy emotional regulation.
• 29:10
  So I would go into defensive mode.
• 29:14
  I, I, I have, I got flooded.
• 29:16
  I got dysregulated, uh, overwhelmed because I just could not handle the emotions, especially from women.
• 29:24
  And that was because of how my mom reacted in a lot of situations.
• 29:27
  So my wife was never being mean or criticizing me, um, or trying to hurt me, but that's where all my reactions were coming from.
• 29:38
  Cause I was, I was believing that why, and, and this,
• 29:43
  little sidebar, a realization I had is every feeling that I had in those moments was so real.
• 29:50
  That feeling of rejection, that feeling of abandonment, that feeling of not being good enough, every single one of those feelings was as real as anything I've ever felt.
• 30:02
  But they were based on a lie.
• 30:04
  They were based on a lie that I believed, whether I created it,
• 30:12
  it was taught to me that I had no worth, that I had no value.
• 30:17
  And it's amazing how much of our life can be impacted and influenced because we believe a lie.
• 30:25
  And so realizing that and then realizing, like you said, most every woman in this world feels unsafe.
• 30:35
  Yeah.
• 30:35
  All right.
• 30:36
  Emotionally, physically.
• 30:38
  And so that, that, that resonated with me.
• 30:41
  And then,
• 30:43
  What resonated also is like, again, I'm six foot five.
• 30:46
  I'm 300 plus pounds.
• 30:49
  I know how to do violence.
• 30:52
  I mean, men in general know how to do violence, but I've been trained specifically to do violence when needed.
• 31:00
  And I was feeling completely, totally, physically unsafe in those moments.
• 31:04
  And that's where the reactions came from.
• 31:06
  So when you shared that, it finally clicked for me.
• 31:09
  I was like, holy, I'm not unsafe.
• 31:14
  I'm not.
• 31:15
  These emotions are coming from that feeling of unsafety, but I am safe.
• 31:19
  There's no threat.
• 31:20
  I'm not in physical danger.
• 31:21
  I can handle pretty much anything that comes my way, at least in my space.
• 31:26
  So I was like, wow, that was a huge revelation to let things go and to not get so activated in those moments when things started to get crazy or stressful.
• 31:39
  I could do it in a professional environment.
• 31:41
  didn't bother me just at home.
• 31:43
  I couldn't do it.
• 31:43
  And it was because it was tied to again, that, that childhood dynamic, uh, with my mom.
• 31:49
  So feeling safe was a huge breakthrough for me.
• 31:53
  Yeah.
• 31:54
  And then the other, the other lesson was the, um, self forgiveness, self forgiveness ritual.
• 32:02
  Um, my wife had forgiven me for things.
• 32:06
  Other people had forgiven me for things, you know, and again, going back to my faith,
• 32:12
  I realized I believe and accept that God, the creator of the universe, forgave me and forgives me.
• 32:20
  But I had not forgiven myself.
• 32:23
  I had not been able to look back at the hurts that I've caused, the pain that I've caused, the bad choices I've made.
• 32:33
  I had never been able to sit there and forgive myself for those things.
• 32:38
  And I realized, oh my word, I'm holding myself to a higher standard than the God of the universe is.
• 32:45
  If he has forgiven me for all the wrong things I've done and doesn't hold that against me anymore, well, if I can't forgive myself, I'm saying that I know better than God.
• 32:57
  And that certainly is not the case.
• 33:00
  So for me, those were the two biggest lessons, knowing that I was safe,
• 33:06
  And I had to forgive myself.
• 33:07
  So when I went through and did that self-forgiveness ritual, and I prayed, I asked God, Father, show me all these areas in my life that I need to give myself forgiveness for that you've already forgiven me for.
• 33:21
  And I probably spent an hour in my room just as things come up going through that self-forgiveness ritual.
• 33:29
  And again, the heaviness that left because I no longer was wallowing in self-condemnation.
• 33:36
  Thanks so much for sharing that, Steve.
• 33:41
  Yeah, it's intense.
• 33:42
  I'm kind of at a little bit of a loss for words because of the intensity with which you shared that.
• 33:48
  You know, I feel like that ritual for me was kind of downloaded.
• 33:53
  Like, I don't know that I created it.
• 33:55
  I think it was kind of conveyed to me by a higher power.
• 33:58
  It was like divine intervention that, you know, I was teaching the...
• 34:03
  second brotherhood container.
• 34:05
  And I'm like, man, all these guys really need self-forgiveness.
• 34:07
  And that ritual came through and just hearing your experience with it is really profound.
• 34:12
  How did that, how did that change things for you afterwards?
• 34:15
  Let's, let's like bring people up to, to where you are now.
• 34:18
  And, you know, you've been through the container, you were doing a lot of therapy before.
• 34:22
  How are things for you now?
• 34:24
  So like you say repeatedly in the container, progress, not perfection.
• 34:29
  Yeah.
• 34:30
  Um, this is going to be a lifelong journey.
• 34:32
  And I loved how you framed it as this is almost like an internal martial art.
• 34:38
  You know, it, it takes practice.
• 34:39
  It takes discipline.
• 34:41
  You're never going to be perfect.
• 34:43
  You just keep getting better and better at it.
• 34:46
  Um, and so I feel much more regulated.
• 34:51
  Um, I don't activate.
• 34:53
  I don't, I feel the feelings.
• 34:56
  I can now sit with them.
• 34:58
  identify the underlying thoughts or beliefs under them, change them if needed.
• 35:04
  I think I posted in the forums for the container about a week or so ago, some stuff I was, some old feelings that came back that I was able to work through in a different way.
• 35:18
  Let the emotions come and did not identify them with shame, but with grief or, yeah,
• 35:25
  relationships that could have been and should have been.
• 35:30
  So that was, that was profoundly healing and therapeutic for me.
• 35:35
  Continuing to do the work.
• 35:37
  My wife and I still going through couples counseling.
• 35:42
  I, I still have my days, you know, I still get into the fields and the negative emotions, but I pull, I have to pull myself out of it.
• 35:49
  You know, I go to God with it.
• 35:52
  You know, there's,
• 35:53
  you know, the whole renewing your mind, which I think, you know, the Bible's talking about renewing your mind and that fits perfectly with what modern science now knows as neuroplasticity.
• 36:05
  Yeah.
• 36:05
  Right?
• 36:06
  So understanding the wisdom in that and trying not to focus on the negative and only improving myself.
• 36:13
  I can't change anybody else.
• 36:15
  I can't change my children.
• 36:17
  I can't change my wife.
• 36:18
  I can't change my coworkers.
• 36:20
  All I can do is become
• 36:23
  a better person.
• 36:24
  I can leave the old man behind.
• 36:27
  And to be honest, um, I've really tried to clean up my, my language, my swearing, but, uh, the old me was an asshole.
• 36:36
  When I look back now and I look at how I treated people subconsciously without realizing it, not an excuse, just a reason.
• 36:46
  Um, I was an asshole.
• 36:48
  No wonder people didn't want to be around me.
• 36:50
  Yeah.
• 36:51
  You know, and, and,
• 36:52
  I wouldn't want to be around me either if I was like that still.
• 36:56
  But now I realize I'm not that person anymore.
• 37:01
  And all I can do is continue to develop, be true to myself, my values, my core beliefs, and keep practicing containment for myself.
• 37:14
  And if anyone is in my sphere, if anyone's in my world, anyone's in my life, I hope that overflows to them.
• 37:22
  I hope that shows to them, but I'm not ruled by fear.
• 37:27
  I'm not ruled by what other people are thinking about me anymore.
• 37:30
  Cause again, that sham identity for me is gone.
• 37:33
  And I, I'm just living life.
• 37:36
  You know, you, you asked me when we first got on before the preamble and as we started going, I was doing today and I was like best day of my life.
• 37:43
  And that's my attitude every day now, because yesterday's gone.
• 37:48
  Tomorrow's not promised.
• 37:50
  All I have is right now.
• 37:51
  This is the best day of my life.
• 37:54
  And so, you know, I just feel better.
• 37:59
  I just feel better about myself.
• 38:01
  Steve, is there anything I haven't asked you that you'd want to share with a man who is maybe in some of the chaos, the turmoil, the stuckness that you were feeling before?
• 38:12
  Is there anything else you'd want to share with that person or anything I missed?
• 38:22
  struggling with these things, even if you don't think you're struggling with these things and you're seeing this podcast, you're hearing this podcast or you're seeing any of, of your content, one reaching out for help.
• 38:33
  Like you said before, it's not a sign of quitting.
• 38:37
  It's refusing to call people.
• 38:38
  Yeah.
• 38:39
  You're, you're not refusing to quit.
• 38:41
  You are, it takes an incredible amount of strength for a man to admit that he needs help and is asking for help.
• 38:48
  Um, so, um,
• 38:50
  see that as strength, not as failure.
• 38:53
  Realize that our society has not trained men to be men.
• 39:00
  I would say most of us are probably 12-year-old boys stuck in adult bodies.
• 39:06
  And even if you are not in a bad relationship, obviously one of the driving motivators for this was for me to join the container was I need to fix myself.
• 39:18
  I need to do something different.
• 39:20
  if there's any chance of saving my marriage, if there's any chance of saving the relationship with the love of my wife, the love of my life, my person, again, I don't know where that's going to end up.
• 39:32
  I don't.
• 39:35
  But there are other men out there that you may not be at that point, but you might be closer than you think.
• 39:43
  Your life can only get better if you know how to contain.
• 39:47
  Don't settle for what you've got right now.
• 39:50
  aim for better.
• 39:52
  And the practices, the tools, the practical things that are taught in the container are only going to make your life better, regardless of where you're at, whether it's in business, whether if you're running a business, if you're working in whatever career field, if you're trying to lead your family, I'm trying to regain influence with my sons.
• 40:17
  And in
• 40:18
  through my own lived experience and showing them through doing, but also trying to share with them without overwhelming them, the things I've learned in the container.
• 40:29
  So hopefully I can help set a foundation that they can avoid so many of the mistakes and pitfalls that I've made in my relationships, especially with my wife.
• 40:40
  I would not want to wish this on anyone.
• 40:44
  My children, their future partners, my family,
• 40:47
  certainly not my wife anymore.
• 40:50
  So I would say to any man listening to this, regardless of where you are in life and how good you think it is, it can always get better.
• 41:00
  So be willing to ask for help and do the work.
• 41:04
  Steve, that's profound.
• 41:06
  Um, typically I have a rapid question of what would you tell a man thinking to join, but you kind of answered it.
• 41:12
  And so, yeah, I really, I just want to express my appreciation for everything you shared today, Steve.
• 41:20
  And, um, also just express my appreciation for what you do.
• 41:23
  You know, I've had a lot of friends that are first responders and we've had multiple first responders in the brotherhood.
• 41:28
  And I think the work that you do is...
• 41:31
  extraordinary.
• 41:32
  It's incredibly challenging.
• 41:34
  The way that you've expressed some of that today, I think will help other people who are in similar, maybe challenging lines of work really see themselves in it, which I think is really important because early on in this podcast, you said there's kind of a stigma about asking for help.
• 41:51
  I've known enough first responders that if in your area, it's kind of a stigma in most areas, it's an absolute stigma.
• 41:58
  And the way you've shared so openly and so vulnerably, I think it's only going to help the people who listen to this podcast.
• 42:04
  I can't thank you enough for today.
• 42:06
  I'm honored, Steve.
• 42:08
  Thank you, Alex.
• 42:09
  I appreciate the opportunity.
• 42:10
  And thank you for what you've done in the container, for being willing to work with men and share what you've learned and what you're learning.
• 42:21
  Watching you respond to some of the brothers in the Brotherhood and the forums.
• 42:25
  and even online in the containers during live sessions with some really, really hard stuff.
• 42:30
  And the, the empathy, the tenderness, the understanding that you show these men and myself is something that this world desperately needs.
• 42:42
  And I want to thank you for the work that you're doing in helping us.
• 42:47
  Thank you, Steve.
• 42:48
  I'm so deeply honored.
• 42:50
  Before I get emotional, I think I'm going to probably listen to this back and have a good release.
• 42:57
  But if you're a man listening to this podcast and you related to anything that Steve brought up, or you're in a place where maybe
• 43:05
  you have some questions about your relationship or maybe you have some challenges in your relationship or you've been given an ultimatum, navigate to thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
• 43:13
  You do not have to do this work alone.
• 43:16
  It's the hardest way to do it.
• 43:17
  And like I said earlier, asking for help is not giving up.
• 43:20
  It's the refusal to give up.
• 43:22
  So go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
• 43:23
  We have interviews open right now for our fourth container, and I'd be honored to walk this path with you.
• 43:29
  Steve, thanks again, brother.
• 43:31
  Thanks, Alex.