Latest / Birth at Work / S2 EP17 | Rachel Cottam: Parenting Out Loud & Why Allyship Matters

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S2 EP17 | Rachel Cottam: Parenting Out Loud & Why Allyship Matters · Birth at Work

• Krislyn Powell: So excited to have Rachel on the show today. We would love for you to just take a few minutes to introduce yourself, share with us a little bit about you personally and professionally and why you joined us. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, thanks, Krislyn. I'm so excited to be here. My background started actually in teaching before switching over to tech. And I grew up kind of in this conservative family with really traditional values around gender where I just assumed that I needed a mom job. And so that's why I jumped into teaching, loved it, transitioned to tech sort of by accident. I mean, we can get into that a little bit more later and really quickly found that I could be successful there as well. And because we had already been in this... space where we'd started having kids and like the transition kind of came in between there, I jumped into the more corporate world as a mom already. And I actually feel like that was one of like the greatest advantages for me was the kids part of my career was always non-negotiable, right? It was never like, should I go for the promotion or should I get a raise? Like, what if it's time for me to start having kids? Like they were already there and I wanted them to be a part of my career journey, just the same as like I wanted to be there and present for them at home. So my background, the last 10 years or so, maybe eight years has been in tech, mostly in startups. I took a year break to go get my master's degree at Cambridge. It was a phenomenal experience. We got to bring the kids as well. And on the side, really my passion project is around gender allyship. So because I made that transition from teaching to tech, I've seen the need to bring men into these conversations, like to really create allies, not enemies. because I do not believe that gender equity is zero sum. think it lifts all of us. It lifts men, women, everyone on the gender spectrum. So that's a little bit about me and a little bit of what I'm passionate about. Krislyn Powell: I love it. I love it. So excited to dig into this and thank you for sharing a little bit about you Rachel Cottam: Ofcourse. Krislyn Powell: and your mission and all that you are striving to communicate to. the greater society right now and just pushing forward the good work. Let's dig in and talk about, know you mentioned for one, when you joined the tech scene in Utah, you already had kids, you weren't actually Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: going through the birth process and navigating that. That was like. to your point, your advantage. And you Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: actually were a high school English teacher before that. So talk a little bit about that transition from high school English teacher to marketing director. What was that like for you? Rachel Cottam: Mm. Krislyn Powell: Where in your family dynamics were you at at that point? Like how young were your kids? And what were some of the conversations that were coming up for you and your husband around that time? Rachel Cottam: Yeah, great questions. Lots of them. So feel free to ask me follow ups if I don't hit everything. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, it's it's this. Rachel Cottam: So for me switching into tech, had just had our second kid. I was in between that teaching time period. So I had kind of stepped back into more of the stay at home, primary caregiver role, was freelancing a bit on this side. But really that transition for me, the primary motivation was financial. My husband was working, but he wasn't getting enough hours. We were not making ends meet. And I just kind of looked at the bank account one day and I saw like, We're not going to be able to pay rent next month. We've got about $80 to our name. And I think I had really felt boxed into this role that I had to be a stay at home mom. Like that this was the best thing that I could do for my family and my children. And I was looking at that, those dollar signs, you know, the few digits that were left in our bank account. And I thought the best thing I can do for my children right now is keep a roof over our heads is keep them fed. And so I dusted off the resume. I started applying just to any job with a LinkedIn easy apply button and got really lucky within a week had gotten an offer for a part-time copywriter at a startup. And it was so cool stepping into that space, even though I was the only woman in that office and have since had the same experience at other startups. It was really cool because I just felt like my two founders, were Harvard MBA grads and they were willing to teach me. And I came to them with my dumb questions, like coming from teaching where I was just like naturally kind of good at it. There were a lot of women in that space. So was just really comfortable for me to both be a mom and a teacher. I was now in this new space where I had so many questions and being unafraid to ask the dumb questions became my superpower. And I just felt really fortunate. I grew really quickly. Like you said, within those first few years, I think I went from part-time copywriter to director of about a 24 person team within about three years. And so I just really learned like, there's a place for me to lead here. There's a way for me to show up for both my family and for myself in this professional space. Krislyn Powell: I I like how you mentioned too that coming from the teaching background and having that just kind of educational foundation, you weren't afraid to ask questions. And I feel like Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: that is something that I've noticed in corporate at least is that, I mean, I think we're getting better about like being curious and having open conversations, but there's a lot of perfectionism and a lot of masking Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: and a lot of just performance, you know, that there's, there's metrics involved, right? And so you Rachel Cottam: Mm. Krislyn Powell: kind of feel like you have to be perfect right out of the gate when you're hired or start a new role or join a team or a project and so I love that you led with questions and you were curious and you kept asking and that feedback came, right? And you also had leaders that weren't afraid to kind of dig in there and point you in the right direction. sounds like when you first joined that you went in with a mindset of like, okay, this is a learning curve and like that's okay too. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I feel really lucky that I was able to do that. I don't think every workplace is psychologically safe for people who might be wanting to ask the questions or who might be wanting to admit the things that they don't know. I went into that first interview and I was like, they asked for writing samples and I was like, does a personal blog count? And I just sent over, I literally think I sent over an essay about being pregnant and the struggles of what that was like. And so I just felt like, For me, again, it became an advantage. It became really authentic for me to just have being a mom as part of who I am as a professional. And again, it's always been part of who I am as a professional. And so even though in hindsight you think, how would I have mapped my life out differently? I feel like it's been a real boon to me in being able to think about how can I lead and how can I build organizations that hold space for people like me and parents like me? Krislyn Powell: Yes, yes, you have definitely been one that I've noticed at least that has been championing those conversations, Rachel Cottam: Hmm. Krislyn Powell: just leaning in and being like, how can I be more open? How can I lift others? How can I allow curiosity to happen? And so on that note too, I feel like... you're very supportive and welcoming of other women and you were actually in a female majority profession in teaching and then you shifted into tech which is not necessarily a female majority. So I'm curious, Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: was that a culture shock for you? Yeah. Rachel Cottam: absolutely. Yes. Yeah, it took me a long time to adjust and to really feel comfortable, I think, speaking up and using my voice in that space. You you asked about like parenting and when kids came into the scene. My first child was born in my first full-time year of teaching. I'd just finished my student teaching year and then I got pregnant basically at the start of the school year and was pregnant for that whole year. And my team threw me a baby shower. They helped me like adjust my schedule the next fall so that I could have prep periods in the morning so that if... Baby had a tough night and I rolled in a little late. It was okay. You know, like they made sure that I was supported and pumping and all these things. It was just like a really normal part of the conversation because almost every one of the women that I worked with had gone through it and wanted me to be successful doing it. And I think the thing that I've found in not only the Utah companies I've worked at, but some of the out of state companies too, is that they just may not be aware of the challenges that women face. I think most of the time it's not malicious. Every now and then I've encountered a female leader who's like, I had to crawl my way to the top. You have to too. But for the most part, I've found that most men in these organizations want to be better allies. They want to be better people. They want to be more aware of the dynamics and the systems around them. But they're just not sure where to start. And so that's where a lot of this work that I've done on the side or on my passion projects has just been like helping them find these micro actions to get started. And it really just did stem from that personal experience. like you said, culture shock. I'm trying to think if there was one specific example I know at that startup where I was the only woman, where everybody else was able to speak up. And then I made a comment that was, it wasn't any more inflammatory than anybody else. I was just speaking my opinion. But some young male coworker was like, ooh, now the claws are coming out. And I was like, why does everyone else get to be opinionated, but when I say something, it's catty? And I Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: know that maybe sounds really petty, but it was one of those aha moments for me early on in my career that I'm like, I'm going to have to navigate corporate differently. Like, I am going to have to check myself. And we can talk about resources and tools that women can use to be more successful in the corporate space. But I just really believe that unless men are doing the work too, we're never going to close that. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah. my gosh, it's funny that example that you brought up too. was... I'm just gonna share, was speaking with my husband Rachel Cottam: Please. Krislyn Powell: the other day and we were just having a conversation about family life, right? And I said something along the lines of, I'd like you to be a little bit more soft with me, or treat me gently in the way that you say X, Y, right? And he said something along the lines of, okay, I'll work on that, but I compared to, you wouldn't say this to your boss. And he's like, no, I do say that to my boss every day. I say, you're an idiot. do this and I'm like wow, I'm like I'm thinking back to my corporate you know years and I'm just like I would never you know like I don't think that Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: that's just expected of I guess like women in the workplace like they need to be soft and quiet and kind and helpful Rachel Cottam: Hmm. Krislyn Powell: and you know there's just certain attributes that we carry and I think that they're like opening up the conversation to there's Like that's not the only way that we can show up, right? We can Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: be a little bit louder. We can say what's on our mind. We can say it with kindness and respect, but it's okay to be bold. And, you know, I'm not gonna go around calling anyone an idiot, right? Like we're making a decision, Rachel Cottam: Hahaha Krislyn Powell: but it was kind of like a joking comment that he made. He was like, no, I do like tell him if he's not making sense or we shouldn't do this project. And I'm like, I feel like men are... quite a bit bolder with each other. So it's interesting that you brought up that Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: example. And I loved also that you leaned into the micro actions that you're suggesting through Allies at Work. So I'd love to shift into that too. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, yeah. Sure. Krislyn Powell: The Allies at Work podcast and playbook you created because you noticed that there was a gap, right? So Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: I'm sure like as you are entering tech, you're a woman, conversations are popping up, you're also a parent. And we know that working moms and working dads, moms and dads, right? There's no, Rachel Cottam: You Krislyn Powell: we don't need to label it working and working, are treated a little bit differently in the workplace. So I'm curious if you have some specific examples of like what you witness in tech that made you want to share those things on a greater scale and develop these passion projects. And, and I know that we talk a lot about like women supporting other women and you mentioned that too, when Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: you were in the education space when you were teacher, you're like, this was expected, you know, there were other women that were going through the same thing and so we supported each other. Then when you went to the tech scene, it's like, the dynamic is a little bit different. So I imagine that was probably like a light bulb moment for you where you felt like, okay, there's more men here and we need them on board, like we need to advocate. So I'd love for you to just walk our listeners through like what went through your mind when you began piecing these passion projects together. how you went about gathering the data and what you felt like was really important to communicate. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, so definitely my lived experience helped me get curious about some of the systems that are at work and some of the dynamics at play. And then also being in Utah, like there is a very unique culture in this space. And I literally had somebody reach out to me, a male colleague reach out to me about two weeks ago. And he just said, Rachel, I've got this hunch and I just want to run it by you. He said, at out of state companies that I worked for, if I mentioned being a dad, everyone's like gassing me up. They're like, that's so cool. You're going to your daughter's dance or set up. Yeah, take off early. Like, go support her. Go coach that softball game. But in Utah, he had, I think, I don't remember which daughter it was, after one of his daughters was born, she had RSV and was in the hospital within like two weeks. And he had people who literally said like, Wait, why are you going, you don't need to take time off. Like you don't even know this kid yet. Like you were just in the hospital. Like we need you here. And he just said that like his hunch is like, and it's kind of an ugly assumption. And I want to acknowledge like this may be the exception. This may not be everyone's experience, but he just said like out of state people loved seeing this example of a really involved dad. Like maybe it was the novelty of it. Maybe it was just like, yeah, let's support him. Three kids, wow, you know, but. in state there's this assumption that everybody, he used the word tradwife, right? That everybody has a tradwife. And so Krislyn Powell: Hmm. Yeah. Rachel Cottam: like men are there to be involved in the work and women are there to take care of the kids. And that was like that same upbringing that I really had to fight against both within myself and within my society of like, wait, is there a way for me to make an impact? Is there a way for me to be a good parent and also have a career and like pursue these ambitions? And I've even had, I mentioned I've been the only woman in multiple offices at this point. I've had conversations where I've had to say to my leader, hey, I am the only person in this office without a stay at home wife. Just because I lead a little differently doesn't mean I'm any less committed, doesn't mean that I'm not accountable, doesn't mean that I'm gonna show up. I just need a little understanding that my leadership is going to look different than you because of that dynamic. And so I think those were some of the things I started to notice. I know you've talked on this podcast before about like the motherhood penalty. That was something I saw for sure. Women after having children are penalized both financially and kind of socially at work. Like there's this expectation they're gonna need more flexibility. They're not gonna be as committed, but for dads, they actually see the fatherhood bonus, which like means they make more money. Like they're more celebrated like this friend that I mentioned. And I think those things like... One of the biggest tactics that I talked about, we can talk about others, but one of the biggest tactics that I've noticed to counteract that is this idea of parenting out loud. And both men and women can do it, but oftentimes when we're fighting against systems of privilege or power, we need those who have more of the power or more of the privilege to set the example. And so that's why I often call on men who may not be as accustomed to speaking about their parenting responsibilities in the workplace. to speak openly about it. Just like my friend, he found himself celebrated because he's his daughter's softball coach. How cool is that? That probably makes him a better manager too, because he's learning how to lead in different spheres and different settings and able to carry over that learning. so parenting out loud, I think really helps to counteract the motherhood penalty. Because for women like me who like, I had no choice. I was gonna be a parent from day one stepping into the tech scene. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: There was non-negotiable there. I needed men and allies who celebrated and made space for parents so that I could feel safe to share my parenting experiences as well. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, that's really palpable. it's interesting too that you mentioned that you got to a point where you weren't afraid to say boldly, like, I am the only person in this office that doesn't have a stay at home life. I'm going to be leading a little bit differently. And I think about too, like, I... recently had a baby and I have done this birth journey a little bit differently and I didn't breastfeed for very long with my first but I have with this one like exclusively breastfed and Rachel Cottam: Hmm. Krislyn Powell: I have also been a little bit more fearless about like breastfeeding in public and like breastfeeding on Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: demand when my kid needs it and not being ashamed of that but I needed to bring my husband on board to advocate for me in certain situations like when we are in public spaces or around relatives or something like that and I had to educate him and lay the foundation of like why this was important for our child and also why it's my right in all 50 states to be able to feed my baby. Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: So I, I, it's just like ringing true for me hearing you say that. It's important not only to educate, but bring the men on board who can advocate for us in maybe in like places where our voices aren't currently heard or just elevating us and giving us a bigger foundation and platform to stand on because they do have the advantage, right, of being respected in certain spaces and of being heard. Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: And when we do offer them the education and support and show them perspective of really like what's right and how to support us. it's better for everyone. So I Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: love that. Rachel Cottam: You know, it's interesting in this political climate, feel like privilege, DEI, diversity, representation, all of these words have become really loaded. But one thing that I have learned in my journey and my own unpacking of my own biases is that privilege is not a bad thing. It is actually a massive power and it is a benefit that you can give to other people. So just like you said, like, Being a man in a workplace with majority men, like yes, we can notice that and name some of the dynamics at play and challenge and interrogate like how we can work a little bit differently. But what else we can do is like you as a man with privilege and power and influence in your workplace can stand up for the woman who needs a room to pump. or who might be interrupted in meetings, or who is feeling really nervous to ask for one day work from home because her nanny is in college classes that day or something, you know? And I love that your husband has become that ally for you. I think as women, we can become allies for each other. And in the home as well as in the workplace, we have to have those conversations of how can we lift and support each other because we have different privilege. And that's a good thing. It allows us to build bridges. Krislyn Powell: Yes. I love how you framed that because... Just like, so, just, I'm gonna repeat that. Like, Rachel Cottam: Please. Krislyn Powell: privilege isn't inherently a bad thing, right? It can be a good thing when used in the right way, right? When good people have privilege, that is also a good thing. I once heard too that like money isn't inherently bad, right? Like if Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: good people have a lot of money, they can do a lot of good. And so I kind of like tie the two together, but that was just another thought that crossed my mind is like these things that we sometimes demonize or make it seem like, they, you They just they're so privileged. They have so much money. They Rachel Cottam: you Krislyn Powell: have so you know so much power so many opportunities if good people are in those positions That's good for everyone Rachel Cottam: Yeah, and guess what? Parenting is a massive privilege too. You know, like the fact that I am able to learn from my children more about empathy, more about understanding, more about like clear communication and expectations, like that becomes a superpower that I can bring into the workplace too. So I'm a big believer that like parenting is a privilege and... Even families that are able to have stay at home parents we were able to do that for four or five years where my husband was actually the primary caregiver in our house just because My career was paying more at the time and it was it was the decision that worked for us And I think all the time about what a privilege that was that we didn't need the dual incomes at the time that we were able to balance out some of those costs and that roi and that my kids got to have that experience with their dad and see gender equity modeled on a daily basis like guess what dads can be involved dads can change diapers, dad can wash dishes, and mom can handle the PNL at work. It's really Krislyn Powell: Yes. Rachel Cottam: powerful, I think, when you figure out what works for your family and your relationship, and then you allow that to be your model. Krislyn Powell: Yes, yes, okay. I actually in our dynamic too started out as the breadwinner in our relationship for. Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: several years and then we flipped roles when we did have our first and he became the breadwinner and I was still working but I really appreciate you sharing that dynamic of like your husband was able to stay at home and show that he can also a full-time parent and that he can take on Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: those roles and it's not just like okay passed off to mom as a default parent right I feel like we're talking about that more too I know my husband gets up in the night my baby is still not sleeping all the way through the night right so he gets up and switches off with me He changes diapers. He does bottles when I pump milk, right? You know, he'll take my son for we have certain times that he'll take him and I get free time and we have a schedule, right? But he he does all the things he helps with housework like men can do that too like we Rachel Cottam: Yes. Krislyn Powell: we're showing that they can do that too and that's important and I also think it's another element of that and another layer is like we're setting this up to teach future generations, right? We're showing our kids that moms and dads do both, right? It's not Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: just one parent that is, you know, breaking their back and trying to provide and also do everything at home. So I think that's Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: really important and also really special that your husband had the opportunity to do that. You were able to afford that opportunity at the time too. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, I feel like like I said, I feel like it was a massive privilege and and when I look at like my my friends who are able to have one of the parents be a full stay at home parent I think all the time like how lucky and how beautiful of a privilege that is and and like it's it's not the opportunity that i've had for much for many years in my in my marriage But I still feel really grateful and I think it's a really beautiful model um, I might be jumping ahead in the conversation a little bit but you you asked me earlier about like how we kind of navigate these co-parenting dynamics and I think what you just shared is such an amazing example and I just like hope everyone can capture that and be like, they're sharing bottle feeding, know, they're sharing like the cleaning, the bedtime, the bath time, all those responsibilities. I think like we said earlier, like. If you can learn how to navigate gender dynamics at home and figure out how to communicate clearly and set clear lines of ownership for different responsibilities at home, that will blend into the workplace and vice versa. I'm a big believer that as men learn to become allies in their personal relationships, that they will also learn to become allies in their professional relationships and vice versa. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, 100%. I have been being intentional about this time where post second baby I've downshifted a bit and been able to spend more time with my family at home. And that's just opened the conversation even more to your point of what does our communication look like now? How are we leaning Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: in? Who's taking on what? Because even though I am at home more, it's... you know, I'm not, you know, your typical trad wife. Like, there's still Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: a support of like projects and education that I'm doing and, you know, one day the kids aren't going to be little and I still want to be able to work and do my own thing. And so I, Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: we've had that, that conversation kind of back and forth. But I think it's really important because I hear like, you know, generations before us, like I know my mom said something along the lines of like, make sure he gets up in the night. Like that was something that was hard is like, Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: you know, kicking your dad and trying to get him up in the middle. of the night, like Rachel Cottam: Ha ha. Krislyn Powell: you guys need to have a schedule. So I, yeah, love that you mentioned that. But I, I want to pivot a little bit and talk about your leaves specifically. So Rachel Cottam: Sure. Krislyn Powell: I know that you had a leave that you, well, leaves that you had, okay, so while you're teaching and then also in tech too. So you had a couple of different experiences here. Can you share a little bit about the juxtaposition with those experiences and what you felt like maybe were some aha moments for you of how it was different? Rachel Cottam: Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I'll say like there were pros and cons to each. Like I don't think anyone has mastered leave in the US, right? Like, Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: so we're still figuring it out. In teaching, there was a lot of support again around just like being pregnant, around being a working mother, but also institutionally. the support was not there. It was like six weeks of unpaid leave or partial paid leave if I wanted to take it. And then I had to get a sub and create all the plans and like figure out what that was gonna look like. So as my husband and I were thinking about having our first, we intentionally and we're lucky enough to be able to pull it off, we intentionally planned for a summer baby because I was just like. I don't want to have to figure that out. Like I'm not, I don't want to have to figure out the leave. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: I don't want to have to figure out the cover. I don't want to have to lose pay for that certain time period. So we instead planned and were able to have the baby in the summer, June 14th, and then went back to school. want to say school probably started about August 14th. So I was really lucky that I essentially gave myself two months leave, but structurally that was not built into that system there. And then like other challenges were things like I mentioned pumping at school. I was, I was really lucky to have an office. I didn't have to like go into the bathroom or sit in a stall. Like some women do. I had an office within my classroom where I was able to pump, but like I had a 35 minute lunch break. had seven minute break passing periods between class. Like it was squeezing it in. So logistically that was challenging. but it's a, it's an experience many women share. Like, you know, we know what it's Krislyn Powell: Yes. Rachel Cottam: like trying to make sure a baby gets food. And at the time, financially as well. It was also a money decision. Formula was so expensive and we were living on a teacher's salary and my husband was going to grad school. Formula was not really in the bank for us, so we ended up going with the pumping option. And I'm grateful I was able to do it. Tech on the other hand, and I'll say, so I've got three kids. My second, we had during that time where I was freelancing, kind of stay at home mom. So there was like a year and a half that I was doing that. Pretty straightforward there. And then the Krislyn Powell: Okay, Yeah. Rachel Cottam: third, the timing was just funny because it was during COVID. My baby was born June, 2020. And so one of the advantages of working into tech is like oftentimes those like VC backed companies can offer really, really generous leave. Like I think I remember looking at Adobe, they have a hub here in Utah. And at one point they were offering like 28 weeks of leave for the birthing parent, right? And then like Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: for the other parent, there was still a significant amount of leave too. So like there can be really generous packages. Mine at the time was 12 weeks, which again was more than I had ever seen. So that felt incredible. But because of COVID, we had had a layoff just two weeks prior to my baby being born. And I was lucky not to be laid off, but my boss did say like, hey, we're pretty bare bones here. Like if there's any chance you can come back. part-time earlier, that would be great. So I did end up coming part-time, but I did a hybrid, which was phenomenal. Like I can't tell you how meaningful it was being able to have pretty much that whole first year, like the flexibility to do remote days when I needed them. I remember having my baby falling asleep next to me and just like laying next to me during meetings, or if there were times that the feeding was scheduled during a meeting, I would just be camera off and like sometimes I would tell them I'm Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: nursing, sometimes I would just. let them deal with me being camera off because it just was, I don't know, I just felt like the bonding was better. I just felt like it was such a great experience. With teaching, I didn't really have an option. I had to go straight back to in office. And with this role, there was the flexibility to let my body recover. I barely pumped during that postpartum experience, which was like such a relief to not have to manage that. Krislyn Powell: Wow. Yeah. Rachel Cottam: And yes, there were concerns about like job security. can't remember if I... I said this already, but I did that first one-on-one back in office with my boss. I don't want to say I was hammering the table, but I was very passionate about like, I am not going anywhere. Like I know there's Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: an assumption here that like, oh, she's had a baby. Maybe she's going to step away from her career. Like maybe she's not going to be as committed. I was like, I am here for the long haul. So like put me to work. Like, yes, I'm going to need a little bit more flexibility in the short term, but like, I'm not going anywhere. And so those were three somewhat unique, unique birthing experiences. Again, pros and cons to each. We haven't nailed it yet. Krislyn Powell: I think it's really helpful that you were able to share those. and I mean, going through it, right? It's always just... To your point, like we haven't mastered the leave experience yet, right? Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: There are pain points along the way with each one of those, but I think it's cool that you had different ones that you're able to look back on and compare and say like, okay, you this is when I was on my own. This is when I was teaching and had a structure at my way. This is when I was in tech and you're able to relate to many different people based on their circumstances. And I think that's a really cool asset to have. Rachel Cottam: Thank Krislyn Powell: I Rachel Cottam: you. Krislyn Powell: also can relate in the sense of I had my first in 2021. I know you said you had your last in 2020 and I had recently started a new job and I just remember similarly, like I only took six weeks there, but yeah, it was kind of like I wanted to come back pretty quickly because... Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: just showcasing like, can do this, I'm here for the long haul, I'm not going anywhere. But that Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: remote environment was so nice. And I like that you mentioned, I could go camera off when I needed to, didn't have to pump as much. Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: It was really, really rewarding and a privilege to have that remote environment too. And I feel like that's a testament to just remote workplaces. And I know you talk a lot about that too, and just having it be accessibility Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: factor and why remote is an important element in just... the environment and that's I know kind of pivoting here and going a little in another direction. I'm going to ask you what your thoughts currently are on you know there's been a lot of conversation a lot of changes with pulling people into the office and then similarly, Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: kind of in the same breath, there's a lot of moms that have been laid off on, know, when they disclose that they're pregnant, when they're on leave Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: or when they return. And I know you said with your experience, there were layoffs, you weren't laid off, but you Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: also were like, probably had that in back of your mind of like concern, like, I want to make sure that this is, you know. that this is a fit, that I stay, that I'm committed. Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: And so there's kind of like two questions here, but I'm curious like what your thoughts are currently on the state of return to office. And I know there's a lot of companies that are still vying for and advocating for remote workplaces, but I also, think we do have a lot of listeners that are. coming from a place of maybe a little bit of fear about their role, stability and security as they are growing their family. So I wonder if Rachel Cottam: Hmm. Krislyn Powell: you have any thoughts on that and can pull from your experience. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, I have lots of thoughts on that. I'm not sure how well I'll articulate them, but I'll answer the return to office question first and then maybe focus more on the parenting. So the data I've seen is that in 2026, we're having the largest exodus of women from the workforce since COVID. So we reached this really lovely space where flexibility was built into the way that everybody worked. And then just in the last few years, we've had this pivot of going back to like, No, return to office is the way, like this is what has always worked, this is the only thing that's gonna work. And what I really feel like is missing from that conversation is like the actual stats on productivity and results. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: I think when we are operating in markets that are a little uncertain, and when leaders are unsure of their strategies, then they tend to focus more on like more micro managing sense of control, right? Like they are... fearful, they're unsure, and so they say, when I can see butts in seats, I can feel more certain of my strategy. What they are missing is that long-term vantage point of like, no, actually if I can get my strategy right first and get out of everyone's way, let them be productive, let them work when and where and how they are most successful, then that actually tends to have stronger bottom line results. I think from the gender perspective, what we've seen, and McKinsey comes out with our women in the workplace report every year, and the data is the same. Like when you have more gender diverse teams, bottom line results tend to be 20 % higher than. and comparison companies. And so for me, gender diversity in the workplace is the right thing to do, of course, but it is also so good for business. And I think that's what so many leaders are missing when they're making these really kind of old fashioned, outdated, return to office mandates, is they are actually limiting their ability to be more innovative, more productive, more creative, more forward thinking when they get stuck in this mindset of fear and control. So those are my thoughts on... The return to office. Yeah. Yeah. mean like I I Krislyn Powell: Well put Mic drop. Rachel Cottam: mean, I don't know like I don't know if you've seen the same thing and other conversations you've been having but like it sounds like you're seeing tons of women who just like feel like the workplace isn't conducive to them in this current state. Is that true? Krislyn Powell: Yeah, so I am currently a member of Society of Working Moms, which is an online community of a couple hundred women across the states. there is, you know, we have different Slack channels in there. One of them is working and we talk constantly about the state of work and share Rachel Cottam: Hmm. Krislyn Powell: articles and data about the exodus you mentioned most recently and what that's like. And there are a lot of us in that community who have downshifted from corporate. to your point, due to flexibility constraints and the change in dynamics in the workplace. And then there are lot of birthing mothers that are worried about the layoffs that are currently happening. And Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: I think there's just a lot of frustration. I'll give a specific but nonspecific example where Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: there is an HR exec in that community who is frustrated because she has a remote position, but now the company is demanding return to office for everyone in the company, minus her and a few others. And it's like, Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: difficult for her because she's like, how do I manage these other women and tell them like, yay, return to office when I don't have to do that? And similarly, she's weighing, you know, cost and worth of like her role and if that dynamic will shift, if she'll have to return to office. So I think Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: there's just... There's, yes, I feel like what I'm seeing there and then on LinkedIn as I'm having conversations with women and also seeing different posts that are popping up, I think those dynamics are at play right now. There's an element of frustration with what's happening and kind of like, did we not? give examples of how we can work well remotely during COVID and Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Yeah. Krislyn Powell: right after, like in the last six years, have we not produced? you know, and Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: I think it's a disservice and unfortunate to all the mothers out there who still want to work and are good at what they do. And like you said, really bring creativity and results and variety in the work. And yeah, but to answer your question, that's what I'm seeing where I'm seeing Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: it. And I think I think we need to keep having the conversation and talking about it because I think that's really the only way we can get to a solution to solve some of these issues that are popping up. If I do have a daughter, I don't want her options to be limited as Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: what's kind of happening now and I would hope that she... has the freedom and recognition and opportunity to work the way that she wants to work. So those are some feelings coming up for me too. Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. Sorry to put you on the spot, but I know you're having these conversations. So thank you for sharing that perspective. I mean, to maybe be a little personal, a little vulnerable from my experience, my husband and I both this fall, both went back to work and we both ended up in jobs that are in office. His is part-time in office, mine is full-time in office. And this is the first time in several years, like probably since COVID, that we have both been required to be... fully in office outside of the home. And our kids at this point, my youngest started kindergarten, so we're like, new chapter, new era, like we can make this work. I cannot Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: tell you like those two and a half hours at the end of every day where I'm trying to find coverage or trying to coordinate with my husband, like who's gonna do pickup? Do we have a sitter? Do we have a camp, after school activity? What is it like? The amount of mental load, like the amount of mental energy that goes towards those two and a half hours at the end of every day is... exorbitant like it's insane Krislyn Powell: Yes. Rachel Cottam: and we've been looking at our summer calendar for this year and literally like the last two weeks I showed a co-worker today because like it's color coded on like who's babysitting which day which day do we have full day camps which days we have partial day camps do we need drivers do we need a babysitter who can you know get them there like it's and I know like this is so silly that I'm complaining about this now after having you know three kids like we've been able to make it work up to this point without it But, so many women relate to this. Like I know so many women who have their master's spreadsheet for the summer. But to go back to that conversation, like, I just don't know. Like, I don't know that my boss knows. Like, I don't know that, like, my male coworkers in other jobs have always been aware, like, you're just thinking about getting your job done, and like, you're gonna bring home dollars at the end of the day. Bringing home dollars for me requires me to pay someone else. I am literally paying. to be at work so that I can make money, right? Like it's just like this convoluted cycle that there are other, there are working dads or dads, know, there are parents who have to solve this problem too and who carry this burden. I'm a huge believer that like any couple that is having a conversation about one of the parents going back to work, it is not her salary is paying for daycare. It is a joint salary where we are paying for a joint financial responsibility, right? Like daycare is both parents' responsibilities, not one parent. But I just know that there are some... dads out there or you know maybe even working moms out there who just like aren't considering these things and the mental gymnastics that we're doing just to show up in office every single day. Krislyn Powell: it's interesting that you mentioned too, that you and your husband are both in office. My husband actually just transitioned into an in-office job too. Rachel Cottam: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: He has like the opportunity to work remote ad hoc as needed, but there's a lot of travel involved. There's a lot of like events during the week. There's a lot of, Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: know, if I hadn't downshifted, I mean, this was part of the conversation, but he was in a remote role prior to that. And so was helping like during postpartum and everything like that and then just got this opportunity and we just thought you know I mean the timings right like I am able Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: to help out more, but it's a conversation. I've had with him like Yeah, he I mean he does help out a lot when he's here But I have communicated with him like you are child free for this amount of time and like you do you just don't have to worry about the you know XYZ on these days like Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: these hours, like you simply have no worry in the world. You just go to work. And not to downplay that. Like having a career is very important and work is, you know, it takes a lot of energy. And I recognize that, but me pre-kids and me post-kids, like different professional girly, right? Like it's just, it was Rachel Cottam: you Krislyn Powell: easy to just go to work and not have to worry about all of the hoops and the mental load, like you mentioned. So. Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: Yes, but I really enjoyed this conversation so far and thank you for digging in there and like. Rachel Cottam: Of Krislyn Powell: Yeah, and sharing a little bit about your personal experience and what's going on right now. And before, I don't wanna close without also mentioning a huge achievement that you have recently accomplished, which is getting your MBA at Cambridge. I know you mentioned that at the beginning of the conversation, but Rachel Cottam: thank you. Yeah. Krislyn Powell: I did wanna focus on that too towards the end here and talk about kind of why you did that. I'm a huge proponent of continuing education. I think that's so cool that you essentially like chased your dreams here and made it a reality. And so I'd love for you to share your experience a little bit more with our listeners and you know kind of like why you did it, how it's enhanced your career, and any takeaways you'd like to share on the show. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate you bringing it up. It truly was like bucket list, like a game changer Krislyn Powell: What the? Rachel Cottam: for me. And I think, you know, I mentioned the way that I stepped into tech and stepped back, like climbed back onto the corporate ladder was kind of accidental. And I'm the kind of person who like, I'm going to take the lemons that are given me. I'm going to make lemonade, right? Like I'm to make the Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Rachel Cottam: best lemonade, right? And so like, I really did just like, I jumped back into tech and I just climbed that corporate ladder. I was hustling, I was grinding. I was trying to prove my worth, not only to the companies that I was working in, but to myself. Like, yeah, I can do this. And taking a step off of the career ladder, like maybe it's not fully off the career ladder, but taking a step away from the workplace, I... Fully was not able to work during my MBA. It was a one-year intensive. We moved to England. We did the whole thing. It was one of the first career choices that I made for myself in a long time. And maybe that sounds dramatic. Like I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities that I had and the learning and the growths and the promotions. But this was something I wanted for me. Like I wanted a global cohort. I wanted an international experience for my family. And I wanted to just pause and... Rediscover who Rachel is and it was truly such a gorgeous time and will forever live like it's just like idyllic spot in my memory where I was able to do just that and And to the parenting conversation wouldn't have been able to pull it off without a supportive partner like a hundred percent would not have happened We had some logistical issues like with with visas and that nonsense like the first night that we landed in England after all the the drama of getting there, I looked at my husband and I'm like, I don't know, like maybe it's enough that I got in, that we got on a plane, that we landed in England, I just don't know if we're gonna be able to pull this off. And just looked at me and he's like, Rachel, if I have to fly home with the kids and solo parent for the next year, we are going to make this happen for you. And like there was a period that he did have to do that, like where there was a semester I had to be in England and the family couldn't be and he showed up. And so I just feel really fortunate that I had that in my partner because there were times that I kind of fell back into that default thinking like, this is a pipe dream, this isn't necessary, we're filling the roles that we need to in our family. My education is secondary, but he reminded me like, no, you deserve this and you need to show up for yourself here and I will make sure that you can do that. Krislyn Powell: A moment for that. That's just that's beautiful like one that you are able to To look at yourself and say like I'm making this choice for me This is like I I you know a choice in my career that I am actually getting to to choose out of the sheer enjoyment of it and because I'm passionate and curious and then you know as most hard things you know, happen or most hard things do challenge us. There's always a point where we feel like, we're just going to quit because it's like Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: the logistics are too crazy or it seems like it's just not going to work out and that your partner was able to kind of lean in and just say like, no, like we're doing this, you are doing this, you've got this, I've got you. So, so cool. Like we all need that type of partner. Yes. Yeah. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I feel really lucky. Krislyn Powell: And know, circling back to and just kind of like looking back over this conversation and everything that you've created with Allies at Work, you know, as someone who's studied deeply all the topics we've hit on in this conversation, I'm curious if you would leave us with some workplace policies and structure that you think would Rachel Cottam: Mmm. Krislyn Powell: make the biggest difference in retaining women like yourself, parents, you know. people that clearly like are continuing education, like high achieving individuals want to work, what would, what kind of policies and structures would be helpful for them? Rachel Cottam: Yeah, so as far as like policies, if we could, you know, start with national parental leave, that would be huge. Like we're the only developed country without it. And so I appreciate that corporations are carrying that burden for now, but if we could have it be more of like a conversation between governments and corporates, I think that would be huge. I've also seen a lot of success in companies that have helped to subsidize or provide onsite childcare. BCG did a study, I think it was literally like a 400, I want to say 425 % ROI from this corporate-funded childcare. And whatever form that takes, like recognizing that people like you and like me, we are doing the mental gymnastics and whether or not we want it to, that may be affecting our work. And so by taking that on as like a corporate responsibility, something that you're going to provide for your coworkers, you're actually helping make your business more successful. Again, I really believe that it leads to bottom line results. So those are two policies that I see as far as like, like I said, I'm a big believer that individuals can make change and that we should not be waiting for our corporations or our governments to like solve problems for us. Men, women, we can show up for allies for each other. We can parent out loud, right? Speak openly about our parenting responsibilities. We can make sure that women and other underrepresented voices like the intern or the woman of color, like that those people are not being interrupted and that their ideas are being credited. at the workplace, there's some really cool tactics around this like amplification. Ruchika Tulshyan's book talks about like interrupting the interrupters. I love that idea. And then as we talked about too, just like educating yourself, noticing the dynamics at play. I tell men often, this is so silly, but like I literally told my dad to do this. I was like, I want you for the next week to count the number of women in every room you're sitting in. Whether that's a corporate environment, a community environment, a church environment, I just want you to notice. who is sitting in the room and who is holding the mic. And when you do that, you will start to think about, are there systemic things happening here? Like, are there biases at play that I maybe haven't noticed or named before? I just think that's a great way to start educate yourself and share the burden at home. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing and a great reminder to all of us. Like we don't have to wait for the systems that are in place to change. We can take Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: that on to be allies and to support others and to notice when we can lean in and lift and advocate for those that maybe don't have as much privilege as us or aren't holding the mic, right? Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: Amazing conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. I would love to close with recapping like where we can find you, support you, you know, what projects working on. Yeah, just let us know. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, please. I'm really loud and annoying on LinkedIn. So find me there if you'd like. I've got Instagram too. I've got a podcast that's dusty and I need to update, but I'm a big believer in having these conversations, whether it's on social or one-on-one. So please feel free to reach out to me if you're interested in these topics. Krislyn Powell: Yes, and then we always close with a question, what hope you have for future working parents? So I'd love for you to share like your ideal reality for those future working parents. Rachel Cottam: Some of the data that I'm seeing around millennial dads is really, really encouraging to me. I think my husband's a great example. That friend who I mentioned, you know, like we're in our mid 30s and a lot of the people that I'm seeing my age and younger, like those dads want to be at home. They don't wanna be in the office from like nine to nine. They want to show up and have family dinner. They wanna coach the tee ball teams. They wanna take their kids skiing with them. That to me is one of the most encouraging things. And like in your relationship too, The conversation of balance and like who's going to own what responsibilities, it's happening at the beginning. And so that's where I think we're still, you know, we're still operating against like years and years of programming of what like family life looks like, of what parenting looks like. But I'm really, really encouraged by the millennial dads who are showing up and speaking up in their workplaces so that they can be more involved at home. Krislyn Powell: Me too. I love that. And this season is our first season where we're bringing on dads to talk about those topics exactly, you what it's like to be a millennial dad and what it's like to found Rachel Cottam: Yeah. Krislyn Powell: companies and still show up and help with the home and all of the things. So that's a great lead in, but thank you again so much for joining us. You are so Rachel Cottam: Of course, my pleasure. Krislyn Powell: needed in this space and yeah, it's just been so lovely having you. Rachel Cottam: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having these conversations. They're so important. I really enjoyed this.