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The Impossible Standard of Motherhood No One Talks About · That Mom

• Maria Woods: Welcome to That Mom, the podcast where we explore finding more joy and more meaning in the beautiful chaos of motherhood. I'm your host Maria, and I'm so glad you're here. Today, I'm thrilled to have Dr. Lynn O'Brien Halstein on the show. She is a professor of rhetoric at Boston University and author of many books. She talks to us today about how cultural narratives, stories, institutions, and the media impact our everyday lived experience of motherhood. What's so intellectually powerful about this conversation is... It allows women to be aware of the narratives of motherhood that are impacting them and choose which narratives work for them. Welcome to That Mom. So you study the rhetoric of motherhood. You're a professor at Boston University. You've written numerous books. Let's just start with an easy question. You study the rhetoric of motherhood. Explain what that is, because we talked about your work is amazing. The field is amazing. We want to make this accessible. let's start with the basics. What does that mean? Yeah. So for me, ⁓ I've been very interested the last 25 years and trying to figure out ⁓ how and why mothers are persuaded to adopt certain standards of what counts as good mothering. And then the corollary, it always goes hand in hand with bad mothering. part of the ways that we understand what it means to be a good mother is to also understand what it means to be a bad mother. Right. And so I got really interested in trying to figure that out. ⁓ Most of my work has been very much at the ⁓ institutional level, like how do the structures of society ⁓ and its ⁓ resources persuade us that we ought to be mothering in a very particular way. So institutions like media, the law, sort of the images that are the image, the images that communicate certain standards. At the same time that I was, I have, I am a mother, my, my kids are 27 and oh, I hope if they don't hear this, 27 about to turn 28 and 23. Yeah. ⁓ So there are some scholars who are really thinking a lot about the, the practice of everyday mothering, which is a piece of it. But my work has always been looking at the more structural or institutional ways that mothers are persuaded to engage in certain practices. Yeah. And why is this important? Like, why is this relevant to let's just say a mom with younger kids right now, so a newer mom. And why is it relevant? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear yours. a great question. ⁓ I think it's because in many ways, many of us who do this work with all of the large scale changes that happened after ⁓ the 1960s and 70s social rights movements, ⁓ feminist movements, ⁓ gender change movements, the various different ⁓ movements that were happening. There were large scale changes for women, ⁓ different impacted women differently depending on their location, ⁓ and also their their privilege. And in the 1980s and 1990s, many women, particularly women who had privilege and were highly educated, began to move into ⁓ workplaces and professional life and educational institutions that they were barred from previously, or it was very difficult. And so ⁓ many scholars, particularly in gender studies and women's studies, who had taken advantages of those changes, myself included, began to think hard about the ways that their lives were still shaped very deeply and fundamentally around their mothering and motherhood. Initially, there was this idea that feminists rejected motherhood. ⁓ My first book wanted to challenge that notion. It is absolutely the case that many feminists, privileged women who are already privileged, ⁓ I argued they sidestepped motherhood. that it was what was really driving that was ⁓ an idea of metrophobia that they were afraid of becoming like their mothers. And so they sort of sidestepped that question. But by the mid to late 1990s 2000s, many ⁓ scholars began to think about how can we address the ways that women's lives continue to be very much shaped by motherhood at the same time that many women had made, moved into and had gained access to some of the way that way institutions that they had been barred from before. Yeah. So I think at the practical level, it's because in many ways now and that, you 2025 26 is that In many ways, ⁓ motherhood is constraining many women's lives more than previous gender restrictions. so it's really important to understand the ways that that's still happening, the ways that gender norms are still very powerful, at the same time that many women have gained access to professional and work lives that their own mothers didn't have. And so for many women, it's hard. for many mothers, it's hard to sort that all out. Yeah. And there's so I'm sorry to cut you off, but I feel like you've said so many things and I just want to unpack that a little bit and make sure we're I'm following along with you. So there's a movement women are getting more exposure to professional and educational work and institutions. So women starting careers, women studying. And then there's this tension. about matophobia, the fear of becoming your mother. And is that tied into because mothers were or women were previously more restricted. So they don't want to fall into that pattern. They want to be something different. Can we pause there and talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So one thing that I would want to be really clear about is that matophobia is an idea that women are afraid of becoming like their mother, which is an important distinction because many ⁓ many ⁓ women love their mother, but they didn't that what the fear was about was becoming like their mother where ⁓ they were unable to have ambitions for themselves outside of their mothering. Now, again, I want to be really clear that the ⁓ for many women in the 60s and 70s, particularly white women, ⁓ these barriers, the access to higher education, professional lives, college, a particular kind of work life ⁓ was gaining access to that. It's really important to be clear that many women who were not privileged, their mothers have always worked. But ⁓ it was the focus was on, in many ways, gaining access to the institutions that men ⁓ in their lives, it was just assumed that they would do. ⁓ And so it was a complex dynamic. And so part of what I was looking at in my first book was ⁓ trying to sort out what that it wasn't I was really concerned about the ways that feminist scholarship kept getting accused of being anti motherhood. wasn't that they were anti-motherhood, it was that they were silent on motherhood. ignored it. Yes. Or sidestepped it. Because many of those feminists were mothers while they were doing that work. many were primarily, at the time, focused on large-scale gender change. And it's hard to remember how tied ⁓ gender roles were to mothering. mean, we've lived in the aftermath of those successes. And so we, in many ways have forgotten that it was hard for women at that time to be seen as anything but mothers. And so this the silence, it was more about trying to challenge those perceptions, right, I think, okay. And to decouple. in many ways that automatic one-to-one assertion assumption that if you were female, your only role was to be a mother. ⁓ OK, so I think that's a great place to continue talking about roles and how that evolved. There's a concept that you kind of expand upon about this new momism. ⁓ Let's just define that. We'll start there and then we can we can take it from there. So first and foremost, I would love to have come up with that term. did not. ⁓ Douglas and Michaels did in their really all important work that they published in 2004 called the mommy myth. So they were the first to look at they were really interested in exploring ⁓ what I would call ⁓ mediated motherhood, the ways that media were continuing to ⁓ position women as, regardless of any kind of professional or educational success, the ways that media in particular were continuing to tell mothers that first and foremost, you were still responsible for mothering. And so they called it the new momism because it was the aftermath of the success of the large scale gender change. And so what I was interested ⁓ in taking up that work, as was many scholars, I think it's a foundational text in motherhood studies, thinking about the ways that ⁓ I got very interested in the ways that ⁓ mediated images of ⁓ postpartum bodies were playing a role. ⁓ I worked on that idea in my book Bikini Ready Moms. Right. And so was very interested in the ways that, ⁓ that, regardless of whether or not you had were successful. ⁓ Once you became a mother to well, many things continue to happen. First and foremost, that women were still primarily responsible for mothering. Yes, at child rearing, regardless of whether or not they work. Yes. ⁓ So when it's kind of plays into the myth of having it all and and doing it all. So that's kind of the first step you may be a working mother. But mothering comes first. And there's ⁓ to be a good mother, you would devote yourself to your children or child. Yes. And and one of the ways that that ⁓ began to work in the 90s and 2000s and is still very present today. And Douglas and Michael's first start talked about this is that what the the rhetoric of choice that was so important in the 1960s and 70s, ⁓ feminist movements, particularly the white feminist movements, this idea that women ⁓ should have the choice to decide whether or not to over their reproductive bodies. ⁓ That idea, which was relatively ⁓ that that got got integrated into culture such that what happened by the time that the new mom is and came in is the idea, the rhetoric of choice, that it is your choice now after all of the large scale, legal and social change, such that if you choose to be a mother, it's solely your responsibility to figure it out. So it's what academics call a backlash rhetoric. It's this idea that this ⁓ really important feminist idea got integrated such that it is now being used against women, but particularly mothers. And this, feel like, is this why women feel so much pressure to do it all? Like working moms today feel like they need to be one thing at work and accomplish that, but they also need to do things. really spectacularly, almost perfectly in the motherhood department. Yes. And if you are a mother who works and you aren't there, you put all of your resources and education into securing all of the things that We believe children need to grow up successfully. So even if you're not physically present, you're managing the childcare, the meals, the clothing, everything. Extracurriculars or yeah. Because you don't have to do, you don't have to work. I mean, the rhetoric is, you know, it's your choice to do both. So therefore you're responsible for both. Yes. So what it does is it completely sidesteps and keeps in place. institutional structures that do not support families. So we're talking about rhetoric as the way media and the way structures speak about motherhood and that is really influencing mothers. So it's not the individual mother that feels guilty because she's working or the individual mother that feels like, wow, I need to do it all. There's a bigger conversation influencing how they feel and how they're mothering. Yes. And the guilt is a rhetorical strategy to keep it all working. So when I said to my colleague yesterday, ⁓ of course you feel guilty. It's built into the structure of what counts as a good mother because guilt keeps you always worried that you're not being good enough. So for example, one of the most radical things that a mother can do is to quit feeling guilty. Yes. I mean, I know it that seems like no, you know, so obvious. But if you say that to a mother, of course, many mothers I've said that to will say, ⁓ yeah. But it's almost impossible because every time, because there are so many ⁓ wins, ⁓ or ways that mothers are positioned to be guilty. And why is this? Why are struck? I know, and a big question. Why are structures in place, media systems that keep women feeling guilty? is that intentional? What's the gain in having moms feel guilty? ⁓ I know there's even a term like mom guilt is like a pop culture term now. Yes, ⁓ it is absolutely strategic. It's how institutions work. Because again, if you keep ⁓ academics talk about sort of it's a neoliberal strategy of that's particularly endemic in the United States, ⁓ or in North America, that it's this idea that if you keep individuals responsible for keeping society working, then that means that the society itself does not have to support the individual. So it helps to keep us without universal daycare. ⁓ it helps, ⁓ keep, you keep the individuals responsible for raising the next generation, then it allows institutions to not support that economically in particular. ⁓ yeah, makes a lot of sense. And I think it's what I wanted to do with our conversation today is there's so much great academic work on motherhood studies that you've done. to bring it to the practical realm, where we're talking about, I think, just the awareness of anyone who's felt mom guilt or felt guilty that they're not doing everything they should be at home or not doing it well or they're not present. Take a step back and look at that this comes from a bigger picture, that it's not something innate within them. I think even that awareness might give someone the power to question it. or to change the story that they're telling themselves in regards to guilt. Because like you said, the most radical thing someone could do is stop feeling guilty. easier said than done. But I think with the understanding of where the guilt comes from and why it's there, perhaps that makes it a little easier. don't know. Yes. And one thing that I think is really important that the that that motherhood scholars, it's considered sort of the landmark distinction. Adrienne Rich in ⁓ the 1970s wrote a book where she made this all important distinction that most of us draw on, which is the idea that there's the institution of motherhood, which is all of the legal and ⁓ structural ways that ⁓ gender works. And that institution works to keep women oppressed. ⁓ But she also said there's the experience of mothering, which can be empowering to women if they can define if they get to define it themselves, and that it is separated from or pushes back against the institution. So one of the reasons why so many of us love that distinction is it allows us to simultaneously understand that these two things are at work. at the same time, there are these structures that are trying to keep all ⁓ mothers oppressed and oppressed, it makes it oppressed in the sense of it's creating these standards that keep this the society working in ways that don't really actually support women. I think it's just so validating to hear anyone. I'm a mother of young kids right now and I feel like I'm doing pretty well, but it's a lot of balls to keep in the air. It's a lot of pressure. I don't actually know a mom who would say it's not a lot of pressure. It's not a lot to manage if they're working and mothering. So I think it's very validating to hear. And again, you were defining oppression, you know, in a particular way, but I think maybe that's burden, maybe it's responsibility, maybe it's all these shoulds is the type of oppression that you're talking about. Yes, there's a woman named Anne Crittenden who wrote a book actually in 2004 too, I think. It was definitely in the early 2000s where she was one of the she was talking about the idea that by that by that time, there was a lot of gender equality in ⁓ particularly in she was looking at heterosexual relationships because of all of the wide scale change, but also particularly in terms of heterosexual couples that had ⁓ both had ⁓ education and professional jobs. But then she famously said there's something about the this isn't the direct quote, but the idea was that there's something about babies that all of that gender equality goes out the door. Yes, so it's like you have a, let's say a relatively highly educated couple, a man and a woman and a heterosexual couple, they agree that gender equality is important. They're both working. And then somehow when a baby comes into the picture, they revert back to more traditional gender roles. Yes. And it's often not even so conscious as much as all kinds of other, gender issues come crashing together. Sort of some of the most important is it's still factually true. Now again, we continue to close the wage gap, but it's still factually true that there is gender inequity ⁓ between men and women with the same degree. So there's that. It's also true that we are all that there are still some careers that are very gendered. like caregiving careers are still overwhelmingly female. ⁓ You know, like nursing, teaching, ⁓ with, course, the exception of like, you know, the upper administration. Yeah. So when, ⁓ so when a baby comes, a lot of these decisions, a lot of these decisions are also then become economic, right? Because the other thing that there are studies that repeatedly show that when you ask particularly, ⁓ well-educated couples about childcare, there is still this very core belief that they tend to agree that they don't want someone else raising their children. So when all of those beliefs kind of crash together, what often happens is that couples who believe in gender equality make decisions, ⁓ based on economics. So if you have to go down or scale back of course you're going the person who's going to stay at home is the one who makes less money. Right. I mean, that is an economic decision that is actually often deeply embedded in ongoing gender assumptions. Yes. So it's not as it's I think it's important that all that everyone understand that we don't have it's not like, like men are trying to keep women at home. It's much more complicated than that now. And unpacking that, you know. ⁓ And these are messages that both men and women are internalizing. So like you said in this example, the husband and wife are, the couple, the parents of the child, they're making the decision together, right? Yes. But they're both internalizing these messages and these ideals. ⁓ think another interesting way that I've seen this is not when a woman scales back her work, but she doesn't pursue it. with the same enthusiasm or vigor or seriousness that her husband does. that's a whole other topic that can cause resentment or whatever. But I think there's a lot of women that would agree, even if they haven't given up their work, ⁓ the value of their work has gone down compared to their partner and compared to mother. And they've made sacrifices there in terms of their own professional achievement. Yes. And I mean, think about one of the things that Douglas and Michael's also were the first to note is that for many well educated women, they have are sort of trained by culture to turn all that expertise into like reading all of these books, like that they're supposed to become experts in everything and that they have the education and often the resources to do so. And so for many of For many women who become mothers and many women, of course, we know that many well-educated women are delaying motherhood until much later than like, you my mom was on her 21st birthday was pregnant with twins. Yeah. You know, whereas I had my first son when I was 34. ⁓ So they were have been trained to become like child. ⁓ psychologists and you know, to understand and feel empowered to know all of the big development expertise. And so that also becomes an issue in relation to what kind of mother you believe you want to be and should be. Yeah. And that helps shape some of the decisions. ⁓ It is also the case that ⁓ it is physically difficult to work full time and care give full time. It just factually is true. And so what happens is many women do scale back because they want to be good mothers and that can have long term impact on their work. And you know, there's still all kinds of narratives about like when women come back from maternity leave that they're not as committed, or they can't travel. Sometimes they can't initially if you're breastfeeding, for example. I mean, there are ways that you can. So it's a complicated system, but it does. And again, those are sort of ongoing gender barriers that are invisible, but they have real impact. Yeah, they have real impact. think, too, it was so fascinating what you said about well-educated women, which I'm fortunate enough to be one, and thinking that then you need to be an expert on it all. And I think that was my. early experience with motherhood. for me now, my children are a bit older. ⁓ And I can think about the type of mother I want to be. But initially it was like, ⁓ I should just know how to do this all. And I've always loved kids. I was good with children and babies. But I think that is part of the impetus for this show because it was surprising to me to something that I always wanted to be a mother. to be researching up at night how to sleep and swaddle and feed and do all these things that you're like, I know I can master this, was how I was trying to handle the problem. Yes. The problem. And ⁓ that is overwhelming. And it was not sustainable. And that's part of why I wanted to start the show, to have these conversations about how can we live in a more sustainable way versus that. I think that what you just spoke about fed into my own personal experience. Well, I can share with you and ⁓ my kids are older. And one of the reasons that I started the scholarship is I have this very vivid memory. You know, as an assistant professor on the tenure track, and, you know, I had one son and I was exhausted all the time. And I had been lucky enough, at least I think I was lucky enough to have been raised squarely and my parents, both of my parents were really committed to the 1960s and 70s social right movements. And my mother especially was very active in the second wave feminist movements. And my twin sister and I went on our first march when we were three. So I was raised squarely within it. And I remember that my parents talked so much with my sister and I about that we were going to be well educated, we were going to take advantage of all these things. And oh, yeah, you might be a mother. But I so so I did all of that. I was sort of one of the successes, you know, went on got my PhD delayed, you know, becoming a parent, that actually, when I actually had my first son, and they kind of gave me him after the birth, I have this very vivid memory of thinking, I have no idea what to do. Because nobody talked to me like everyone just assumed that I would know. So I did exactly what Douglas and Michael said, then I read every book possible because I was like, I have a PhD. I'm a professor, of course, I can figure this out. So that I've been really intrigued. So that was my first like, that's why I got so I was like, that that notion of silence, that's actually, it was in the hospital room that I was like, wait a second, nobody ever in my circles, like where my family life when I was raised, they just assumed that I would know what to do. So I was I got really intrigued. Couldn't do anything about it the first couple of years, of course, because you know, so busy. But so much of what I've been thinking about really did emerge from my own experiences of feeling very empowered. I think you and I both, ⁓ what you just described was a story of feeling empowered as a woman because you were raised at a particular time, which I think we all support. We want women to feel empowered. And then, but then how do you take that empowerment in the context of becoming a mother and being a mother? Right, because motherhood is also constraining. Yes. Yeah. So it's a paradox where you feel very empowered to make it your own motherhood, but you still have these ⁓ kind of perceptions and cultural norms that are surrounding you. And 5,000 books to read. And now the internet. Yes, that's true. Yes, that's true. Absolutely. And now the internet and, you know, ⁓ so it is, it's hard, each individual has to sort it out, but it's not as simple as individual choices. mean, we're led to believe that but, but our choices are constrained by larger structures than ourselves. which I think is good to know and have that awareness. I think we've talked about so many things, but there were a couple things I wanted to touch on. ⁓ Let's see. So your book Bikini Ready Moms, ⁓ I think is a fun one in that it talks about media, something a little ⁓ more mainstream and ⁓ that kind of talks about how good mothers also, besides being dedicated to their children, have to invest significant time and effort into their physical appearance. ⁓ Can you tell us a little bit about that? I don't think that is earth shattering to many people now. How does that live on, especially with social media these days, do you think? Yeah, you know, again, I'm very heartened to see that there have been some there's been some pushback against that. I'm really intrigued by what many people talk about as the body positivity movement. I, you know, I think that that is pushing back against all kinds of ways that gendered can gender ideas can continue to be embodied in women's literal bodies. ⁓ So I'm hopeful about that. and not but but and at the same time, that notion, and I talked about this a lot in my book is that that the bounce back is a very significant strategy to keep mothering and motherhood on my motherhood in the hands of women almost primarily, because part of the strategy is to ⁓ ⁓ return your body quickly as if the pregnancy never happened as if the mothering is back in the private sphere is separate from outside of the public realm. so I do think like that getting yourself together is is something like you have to have dignity to get yourself together to not just show all these signs of this pregnancy. And that's part of the expectation. Yes. And to keep it out of the public sphere. ⁓ And in the the privacy and also think about this idea of empowerment that we were just talking about. It is also a way for I think, mothers to feel like they're back in control. ⁓ You know, because as you know, ⁓ the what babies do for especially in those like that first year is you totally lose control. mean, it's a 24 hour job. And so I do think for many women, it's a way to feel back in control. But I think at the, in the structural level, the bounce back, which it's not as prominent. So on one hand, like you don't see it all the time. Like I kept seeing these magazines every time I went grocery shopping. Yeah. was 2015 when you wrote the book. So with the, we weren't as bombarded by all these social media images. was just a different time. Yes. And at the same time, we do still see, I mean, sort of, you know, media have moved on to other things, but it is still absolutely the case that we don't see so many bounce back. ⁓ Like, like celebrities after they've been pregnant, but we continue to see thin celebrities postpartum, and we are not seeing very rarely. do we see images that are embracing the changes, you know, postpartum. So I think that they're still very powerful, but I think actually, the fact that we see them, we don't see them as much doesn't mean that they've gone away. It's just that we've all bought into that notion. And so many ⁓ mothers, you know, like when they that, you know, I work with them, I return back or have our, you know, very focused on getting their pre-baby body back. And for many of us, the changes are permanent. It's very difficult. It's interesting. And then you mentioned there is some culture of body acceptance. I know I'm thinking there's Katrina Scott is a fitness. ⁓ She created a fitness program. And she was the first. pregnant woman to be in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit magazine. I remember that. Yeah. And she posts, ⁓ she has post on social media, her postpartum body, and she's into fitness of a place of like loving your body. that just came to mind as an example of someone kind of working against that, she's working against quite a lot. Yes. Yes. And I, I do think again, I think that's a great positive movement. And I still think it's, for many. For many new mothers, especially, it feels like getting your body back is also a sign of success in some ways. I think it's still an important marker, not the only one, but still an important one. ⁓ Okay, so I could talk to you forever, but I want to ask a question that's a little bit enclosing. ⁓ And for women who want to experience motherhood as meaningful and joyful, are there any cultural narratives you think they should try to question? ⁓ Yes, I I hesitated because what I wanted to say is yes, all of them. I think ⁓ I've been thinking about this one a lot. think the sort of a couple of strategies, I think, just trying to be reflective about like, why do I think this is so important? Like, like, just giving yourself a moment. ⁓ to think like, do I really need to do that? Like just to give yourself the grace and the pause. think that that is a way that can help mothers as Rich said, define mothering for themselves. Another thing that I'm thinking a lot about is, ⁓ I rarely, I never engage in conversations about anyone being a bad mother. Like if, If someone says anything to me about someone else's mothering, I always say, I bet she's doing the best that she can. So to try to just resist any moment of participating in this idea that someone is a bad mother, I I firmly believe even on our worst days, most mothers are doing the best that they can and to try to give grace. ⁓ And that's huge because That's a small thing we can all do to help support each other. Yeah. And I think the last thing that I would do is to do as much as we can. I mean, they're talking so much these days about the importance of community to stay healthy, you know, particularly like post the pandemic. I do think any kind of supportive mothering community or group is going to be, it will be really important to help mothers. ⁓ have the community that they need to get through it and to just have as a reality check into to be with other people who are experiencing you know what they are like, we have some friends that we all had babies together and now all our kids are out of the house and that group of people that you know has been so vital in helping me stay centered. Yeah. Particularly because I'm so in my head about mother. Sometimes they're like, okay, yeah, Lynn, but. ⁓ I would say, ⁓ not participating as much as you can, we all have bad days, but giving people grace, having grace for yourself and finding communities that feel supportive to you as a mother, think are ways that. people can really find ways to muddle through it all. Yeah, that's great. And then finally, you, what do you wish more mothers understood about the forces shaping how they experience motherhood? Yeah, that there are forces. That it is not that all of these ideas that we have in our head about what counts as good and bad mothers are, are, are, we have been taught them, they aren't necessarily true. And that I believe that everyone wants to be a good mother, but they don't have to do it the way that they've been told that they'd have to do it. That's such a powerful message. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. And I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I think a lot of moms will take away very practical tips and just feel very validated by the conversation and some of the history as well that you've shared.