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Raising Masculine, Christian Boys · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  I think that this entitlement that is inevitable when you don't have this expectation for kids. And I think this is a real problem for a lot of people today is that they think, well, I brought these kids into the world. It's really my responsibility to make sure that I am giving them surplus value endlessly. That doesn't help kids at all. They're living in a world in which as soon as they have the power to create that value, you want to begin to give them avenues for doing that and then raise the bar properly and create that expectation that this is what it means for you to be a really contributing person.
• 0:30
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. I'm here with Chris Cirillo. Chris, thanks for joining me today. Happy to be here.
• 0:55
  So Chris and I are going to dive into some conversations around sons. So I think this is going to be helpful for moms and dads, but I hear Chris, you have some sons you're dealing with. A few. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:08
  And yeah, I have one son. I was a son. So that's my credibility, but I, yeah, my, my little bit older. And so we're gonna hit this from both angles. So I'm excited to talk about younger boys. And then we're gonna talk a little bit about as they, as they get a little bit older, how to think about what it means to direct them towards a masculine path. So there's two videos that I've seen recently.
• 1:31
  This first one I will pull up and we will discuss. This is Erica Komisar. So I just did another podcast for the Family Teams podcast where she was talking. We talked about motherhood and.
• 1:45
  And then she said this about boys on the Dad Saves America podcast, another great podcast for dads that I highly recommend. He's got some great interviews on there. So they dive into a topic here that I think will be really helpful for you guys. So we will play this. Full time. Some of them have to go to work full time. So it's gotten pushback. So preschool is really daycare. It's not preschool.
• 2:07
  And it starts as early as 14 months. So at 14 months, you're putting a little boy who's meant to be running around and toddling and knocking towers down and building and what we call build, destroy, build. Building towers, destroying. The most fun sequence I've ever known. Yes, build, destroy, build. I love that, by the way.
• 2:26
  If you can label things that little boys do, it suddenly stops it from being annoying and somehow against like what you're trying to do. And just like, no, that's normal. Oftentimes the difference between normal and really annoying is a simple label like build, destroy, build.
• 2:42
  And they're meant to be rough housing and learning about the world through physical exploration. So instead, we feminize boys by making them sit like little girls in circle time. And even little girls can sit in circle time. How distinct is the boy versus the girl in terms of these impulses? Because I know it's not wholly separate. There's an overlap, right? Little boys who are between three and five years old have surges of testosterone almost as much as in adolescence.
• 3:10
  Wow. That was a very surprising, I've never heard anybody say that before.
• 3:14
  And so they, yes, and so they need to run and jump and push and explore. And they're not getting to do that. Instead, they're sitting quietly and they're going crazy. So basically what we're seeing is distractibility in a lot of these little boys is just stress. Because what we're doing is by forcing a little boy who's meant to be running and jumping and playing physically and learning about the world physically to sit quietly in circle time, the frustration tolerance is not there, right?
• 3:44
  That's another phrase I thought was really helpful. Frustration tolerance. How much frustration tolerance does a little boy have? Not a lot. That's a good, good line.
• 3:54
  So we're doing that to little boys and we're labeling them. And then if they can sit in circle time, the school calls parents and says, your child has ADHD. We'd like to medicate your child. Right. So does that suit the schools? Of course it does. It suits the schools because they get a quiet little passive sedated boy. OK, that's a problem. The other problem is that we're pushing cognitive learning, left brain learning before social emotional learning.
• 4:19
  So yeah, I like how she teases apart these two issues. We got the sedation problem, you know, which is, that's terrifying to me that you would take somebody who's otherwise totally normal. And because we've created our, really for the convenience of adults, we're going to go ahead and sedate them and really redefine what normal is to fit our preferred lifestyle. But that seems really backwards.
• 4:42
  Play, the word kindergarten meant garden of children. That's what it means. A garden of children is not sitting in circle time learning letters and numbers. A garden of children... He really hates circle times. She's a good...
• 4:58
  Ten times she's like dissed on this thing. So a garden of children. I like that. Is building towers and knocking them down. Is doing imaginary play. Is putting on princess clothes. Is finger paint. Is playing with Play-Doh. I think the princess clothes are for girls, right? Yeah.
• 5:14
  Oh, and play. It's meant to be free play. And you learn through free play and imaginary play, things like frustration, tolerance, conflict resolution. You work through a lot of areas of conflict resolution through play. And so we've taken that away from children and replaced it with left brain. So I think of the analogy as it would be like left brain learning before social emotional learning or right brain learning is like putting your shoes on before your socks.
• 5:44
  So you talked about how boys are getting feminized, which is for many going to sound inflammatory. Wouldn't be the first time I said something that was inflammatory. What's happening for girls? Are girls... I mean... Okay. So we're going to stick with the boys conversation here. And I love some of the stuff they dive into with daughters as well. But yeah, there's a bunch of things that she pointed out there I thought were interesting. Like...
• 6:06
  this, this real attempt to understand what it is to, to really, what, what is an environment that actually is appropriate for young boys? I think it's such an important thing to try to figure out. So Chris, I'm curious. Yeah. What is, what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, this is a,
• 6:24
  A really challenging topic for me as I'm kind of the boy that she is describing as a little kid. So I was the adventurer. I was always dressing up as an army man and like disappearing in the woods and coming back six hours later, like covered in mud. And.
• 6:41
  doing all that stuff. And at school, myself and another boy, we were actually like the most quote unquote troublemaker kids in the school. And my parents had put us in this Christian school and they had a lot more freedom in terms of the way that they managed children. So I vividly remember like first grade, this friend of mine, Taryn, and we were both kind of the troublemakers because we were so active. She would put a roll of tape around her wrist, like a roll of duct tape
• 7:10
  And she would threaten to tape us to the chair if we didn't sit still and like stay put for hours on end. Right. And, and ultimately by the time I was eight, my parents, you know, were convinced to put me on medication. So I was on ADHD medication until I went into the military and you can't have psychiatric disorders as a special operations army ranger. So I, I hid that and stopped taking them. And I realized that like, oh, there's actually ways to manage. Yeah.
• 7:39
  If I'm living life in a certain way where I don't need any of that and I can still get things done. And so I'm trying desperately to figure out how to do this well with my kids because it is very, very challenging. I have...
• 7:56
  I can attest as a homeschool, as homeschool parents, like if, if our kids get outside to have free play, explore to fight with sticks to imagine that they're a Star Wars character or an army guy or whatever it is that they're doing, like the whole day just goes totally different. Mm-hmm.
• 8:13
  And yeah, I think the labeling piece that you called out is so key. I'm just discovering that boys want to conquer things that they want to. Like, this is so funny. So I discovered this actually more recently, just the language around like the conquering piece, because I was getting so frustrated. Zeke, our two-year-old, he just like, he wants to do everything on his own. And if you try to like do something without him to like keep him from spilling something or to, you know, breaking something, he's throwing a fit.
• 8:43
  And I realized like, oh, my boys, they just want to conquer things. They want to like have this experience and imagine that they're winning, that they're gaining ground, that they're learning things. And once I was able to label like, oh, literally like we label it now in our home, they want to conquer that. And it totally...
• 9:04
  like changes my level of resistance against those things. And like, it allows me to more comfortably just let that stuff happen, which has been really interesting to watch. That's really good, man. Well, first of all, I don't, I didn't introduce you because you've been on the podcast a few times, but tell everybody like, yeah, your kids, the ages and,
• 9:25
  Yeah, my wife, Justine, and I, we have five boys, eight, six, four, two, and seven weeks old, and we homeschool all of them. And so... You got the testosterone factory going on there. That's amazing. I think that at the root of a lot of this confusion is really a very basic question I think people have to answer. And that is...
• 9:47
  If masculinity is primarily a social construct, then why not just tear every boy down and build them up in the image of whatever our preferred sort of description of society should be? So if you've got a conquering boy who wants to do that, and that's just, you know, the assumption is this is this is just something that we've imposed.
• 10:08
  somehow socially on boys. It's not innate to them. Now the Bible has a very different way of describing that. When it says God created the first family and they gave them a purpose to be fruitful, multiply, to fill, subdue, and rule. Like to me, that makes a ton of sense. If that's the goal of a family...
• 10:27
  then there are going to be a lot of innate things inside of a young boy who needs to lead an entity that does those five things. Be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule. Like he's got to be built for those activities. And I think in the New Testament, you have Jesus telling the disciples to go out and make disciples of all nations. Really, it's a conquering strategy.
• 10:47
  It's a world domination strategy. It's not done through violence. It's not done involuntarily. It's a very nuanced strategy, but it is a strategy that requires us to think about how do we do the fruitful, multiply, feel, subdue, and rule as followers of Jesus. And so these mandates, I think, are really helpful. And I think that then you can start to embrace some of the basic things you see come out of a young boy. They start to look like they're part of a design. But once you think that,
• 11:16
  no, these are socially constructed. What really we need to do is educate children in an industrial way. And so they need to somehow be forced to whatever their personality or the proclivity, they have to be forced to learn in this sort of industrial assembly line system. And then they have to be prepared to then make money and exist within a highly ordered system that is designed that way. Well, then of course, yeah, you're, you're back to what are the tactics, the techniques,
• 11:46
  chemicals and medications that will cause us to actually force a boy to fit into that world. So, man, this is where, yeah, I think trying to get down to like theological, have a theology of what masculinity is all about, really starting all the way back to that first description of the purpose of the family and the father being the one who
• 12:07
  ultimately needs to really lead the charge when it comes to those five things, you start to see why boys are made the way they are. So I think that's just embracing the design, I think is a really key step. And then so having five boys and embracing the design, like I'm curious, what are the kinds of challenges
• 12:27
  that continue to rise up as you guys are attempting to you and Justine are working out like how to create a culture that is healthy. Like, obviously that doesn't mean that every one of their, um, you know, their impulses are, are going to be in line with what you feel is positive. But then there are sort of these, these skills or these, you know, general desires that you see rise up in, in your boys. So I love that idea of like conquering and,
• 12:55
  Yeah. How else would you describe the way that this sort of plays itself out in your home?
• 13:01
  Yeah. So first I'll call out just the challenge that this is for parents, especially if you were brought up in that system that because even though I resist against it, now that I kind of see things through a different light, it's trained in me. And so like the impulse control side of things, like when I see them behaving a certain way, I want to shut it down because that's what's been trained in me through society and through schooling for 36 years.
• 13:31
  let the Holy Spirit do a work on like rewiring the way that I think about some of these things. And part of that process actually was recognizing what you were just describing, which is that this is innate and that there's a purpose for it. And I think we realized how strong that was when, okay, we homeschool, they don't have a ton of social interaction with like people outside of, you know, our extended family. We don't,
• 13:55
  show them TV shows and movies and all these things with this stuff, yet they still somehow pick up a stick and they think it's a gun or they, you know, want a sword fight or all these things. And you're, you're going, okay, there's no way to explain that away. I didn't teach it to them. They didn't learn it in some way. It just is in them. So one of the things I think start...
• 14:17
  I've started doing more recently with a new liturgy at nighttime when I'm putting them to bed is I'm asking them how, how do they please me? And they say by obeying, playing, fighting and honoring. And then I ask them like obeying, like, what is that? And so they tell me what obeying looks like.
• 14:34
  But the fighting piece, I'm trying to hardwire into them that they fight for good things. And so that's what they have to say back to me. When I say fighting, they say fighting for good things. So that that way I can kind of train into their subconscious that when they fight, it's for a very noble and specific and good purpose. We're not going to fight just to fight. We're not going to fight for bad things, you know, but we want to be really intentional about how we're doing that.
• 15:02
  And then, you know, you see things stir up like the dinner table. I'll be doing family devotions and I'll look over and they're sword fighting with their, their forks across the table. And like, so you've got to learn to kind of, okay, how much do I press into this moment and shut it down versus how much do I kind of let that work itself out and actually then kind of like train them on what's appropriate at the table later or something like that. And those are really challenging things.
• 15:29
  things to figure out in the moment. I would say I get it wrong probably a lot more than I get it right. And I have a tendency, like I said, with being shaped by the system I came up in to just want to shut those things down. And that's been really hard. Yeah, that's a really difficult, your description when, yeah, like you start to assume a certain level of order is normal and a certain level of disorder. And you do want to figure out, yeah, how do you...
• 15:58
  How do you curb
• 16:01
  like it's a lot of, is circumstantial. I think part of what, you know, she was describing is there's gotta be a lot of time, the sort of garden, the kindergarten or, you know, garden of children. There's gotta be a realm where these things can exist, that build, destroy, build can be fully experienced and that they can enjoy and explore through oftentimes kind of a rough style of play. This, this sort of side of their, their personality and, and their, and their gender. Yeah.
• 16:30
  And then also there are other environments that they need to be trained in. To me, a lot of this does come down to more time, like the length of time, right? So what's really odd about school is that it's really designed around the work schedule of adults. Like why are kids who are maybe six years old...
• 16:51
  spending seven hours a day and oftentimes, you know, much more than that, if they're afterschool things or they can start much earlier if they're in daycare, why are they spending that much time in a hyper-ordered world and where the training and the teaching and the education they're getting is designed around kind of this industrial scale where you have to figure out how to create enough order so that one teacher can educate 30 plus children.
• 17:18
  So, but there are places where you want your kids to be able to sort of click into, hey, we need to be a little more civilized, right? In this arena, we're at the table. Your mom has spent a lot of time working on this meal, or, you know, we've been working together to like, to serve this meal, or we're trying to listen to, you know, grandma and grandpa tell some stories. It is time for us to learn some academic things. So how have you thought about like,
• 17:44
  transitioning into those realms. And what is the appropriate amount of time? Like, like, how have you guys thought about, okay, this is just asking too much versus no, this is, this is an appropriate amount of order to expect from a boy at this stage at this age.
• 18:03
  Yeah, so one of the things that I think Justine has been toying with is the length of time and then how she stacks the before and after components of that. So we will generally eat breakfast together and then they will have a period of some chores to do. So I think that's another element here is like the conquering piece is if you can frame it the right way, having this checklist that they go through. I mean, that's super helpful. And then they'll go do free play for...
• 18:32
  30, 45 minutes or whatever, and she'll bring them back and she'll start school with them and she'll do maybe an hour of school before taking another break. And then they usually will get like another two hours outside or free play or some kind of structured play.
• 18:48
  And that seems like the sweet spot. It's pretty hard to keep kids in the zone and actually learning. And it feels like the diminishing returns are significant, right? And it's like the more you kind of press in, it's almost like the idea of people who work over 50 hours a week, you know, the amount of productivity they have just plummets. Very similar for these boys.
• 19:12
  But I think the imagination piece is another critical thing that she called out that we're trying to figure out how to foster differently, because the left brain, right brain piece, if you if you intellectually train somebody and that's the sole focus of how their brain is engaged, we're going to create patterns in the way their brain functions that are solely centered around left brain activity.
• 19:34
  And I think one of the greatest challenges I've had to overcome is learning how to tap back in or how the right brain actually gets utilized for creativity and imagination and stuff with business and all this stuff. Because I just haven't had it. And...
• 19:49
  I think from followers of Jesus' standpoint, too, like the church is so rooted in information dissemination as well, that if we're not training our boys on how to utilize that part of their brain, I think we're doing a disservice even to their walk with Jesus because it becomes about information and intellectualism rather than experiencing a living God. Yes.
• 20:12
  And so that's definitely a tension. One of the big ways that we create order in spaces that need order is what we do. We might've learned this from you. I can't remember, but a pregame talk.
• 20:24
  And before we go into a formal gathering of any kind, or we have friends over around the dinner table or whatever, we will stop sometimes even before going in the store. And it's like, hey, I know we've been like wrestling in the car and like you guys have been hitting each other and all that stuff. Like we're about to go into Costco and we need to dial it in. And here's what is okay. Here's what's not okay. And actually just reinforcing the list has been really helpful. I want you to repeat back to me.
• 20:50
  What is it okay for you to do in the store? Okay. What's not okay. Okay. You know, let's go do that.
• 20:56
  And that has been really like, I think helpful in transitioning from some of the chaos modes that you might have with little boys to some form of order. Yeah. Yeah. I think those transitions are really difficult for young boys. It's, it's, it seems so obvious. Like what was, it was okay for me to do this just five minutes ago and now it's not. And that just seems arbitrary and unusual. And then it also just sort of invites a test.
• 21:22
  Well, let me just test that boundary. And then you just drive your parents crazy because it's so difficult, you know, to have to constantly reinforce those rules. So I love that idea that, look, you got to kind of take time to actually walk these boys through the transition, right? We're about to go through a transition. What you just did, you know, 30 seconds ago was totally appropriate. In 30 seconds from now, it'll be totally inappropriate. So like that requires like overt,
• 21:50
  conversation over training. And I think that that's, I think that's really good. There's, there's a definite age appropriate way to do that. This, yeah, I'm fascinated too by the left brain, right brain. You know, I've listened a lot to Ian McGillcrist, who's really the top scholar on hemispheric sort of brain research. And he has talked a lot about like the left brain is this hyper-focused sort of like when you are trying to get something done. And so much of what we do within an educational environment is that hyper-focus.
• 22:19
  Whereas the right brain is much more, like you said, imaginative, much more expansive, it's taking a lot more data. And so it oftentimes is more responsible for the kind of the broader and much more holistic experience of life. And so Gilchrist is constantly sounding the alarm bell that we are creating a left brain society, which actually makes things like cooperation and collaboration very difficult.
• 22:46
  And a lot of the polarization we're seeing is this sort of left brain training that we've all undergone in these more hyper focused industrial style educational systems that really rely on. Hey, it's Jeremy. I've had the privilege of walking with a lot of families over the years. And one pattern I've seen is how many people feel stuck. They want to be present at home to work with their kids, to build something of value. They don't know where to start. That's exactly why we created Family Inc.
• 23:12
  It's not a crash course or a pitch. It's a path, one that helps you start and grow a business as a family with coaching, tools, and a community of people doing the same thing. We've packed in everything we wish we had in our early years, and it's been beautiful to watch what's happening inside. If you're ready to explore that kind of future, I'd love to invite you to go to familyteams.com slash familyinc to learn more.
• 23:38
  totally focusing something on the left brain, whereas right brain is you just let them play. You got to let them explore. You've got to let the relationships kind of, you know, not interfere too much with the process of free play, even when it comes to, you know, conflicts that are happening, you know, while your kids are interacting. So another question too, Chris, I know you guys have recently gone through a move and something I've really tried to understand is, do you think that,
• 24:02
  when your family makeup should have a big impact on like where you live or the kinds of environments that might be appropriate for young boys. Cause I think that sometimes we as adults want to think, well, where do I feel most comfortable living? You know, what, what, what is, what is, and obviously there's a lot of,
• 24:19
  reasons why sometimes you just don't have a choice, you know, because of your job. You just, you can only afford certain places or you can only, you know, really consider certain options. But, you know, there are oftentimes larger options. You could end up, you know, with a longer commute and a lot more space, you know, and this is for a lot of people, an option. I think when you have a lot of boys in the family, it always has felt to me like that probably necessitates a little bit more,
• 24:47
  thought about, okay, how do we create or how do we live in a world where they can have that kind of free play? And you can do that in cities as well, but you have to be thoughtful about how to craft that kind of space so that it does feel to them expansive. But there is a lot to be said for just going, sometimes just getting out of the city, living out of the city or
• 25:10
  vacationing and experiencing things in a much more expansive place. So how has that impacted your boys as you've seen, you know, through these moves you guys have made, you know, how does how does space and environment impact this conversation?
• 25:24
  Yeah, it's huge. So when we, for those listening, we were in Oregon, we left Oregon and moved to Texas, and then we recently moved back. And so the first time we were in Oregon, we had two acres and the boys had like unlimited free reign in the backyard to some degree, right? Because it was completely fenced in and we lived butted up against a wildlife reserve owned by the Army Corps of Engineers. So there was like no houses, no nothing behind us.
• 25:50
  And that was really amazing. Moving into a suburban, you know, like a subdivision in Dallas area was like pretty brutal for the kids. And, you know, we had to come up with some creative ways to like give them space to do what boys do inside of the house.
• 26:08
  Um, moving back, we are, we're renting at the moment, but the place that we're at has six acres of land. And so they go out and they just adventure and they climb trees and they've got a hammock, you know, hanging up on one of the trees and they swing on it and they climb, you know, all the stuff.
• 26:24
  But we have a vision for kind of an intermediate space where there's something like this, where there's multiple acres, five to 10 acres, preferably, where we can actually have some farm animals or things like that, where we can infuse both the outdoor kind of fluid approach for boys with responsibility and,
• 26:46
  And have things that they actually, that will die if they're not caring for them as incorporated into part of what they're doing with their day-to-day. But being close enough to the city where kind of ministry and relationships and things like that can still thrive. And that's a really interesting tension to try to figure out.
• 27:05
  But I do think to your point, it would be probably the wrong move for our family to go into the city. Even if we had maybe a half an acre or something, it just wouldn't be enough for what those boys need when it comes to creative play and exploration and tree climbing and you name it. And so it's a, it's a tension. I do think my natural band, I grew up on some farms and I actually kind of.
• 27:32
  bristle against that now. And so I have less desire to do that than Justine does. But I will say that I'm very convinced that it's the right move. And it's something that I need to sacrifice and die to in order to provide the environment that my kids need. And, you know, we, we had these kids, the Lord blessed us with them, and now we're responsible for doing the shaping. And so we've got to figure out how to make that happen. Good.
• 28:00
  Yeah, I know that too, one of the concepts that really struck me, Tim Keller talked about raising his sons in Manhattan. And one of the things he mentioned was the front nine and the back nine. And the front nine being when your kids are, especially boys are nine and under, having that...
• 28:19
  realm of free play is more critical. And then when you, your kids, especially a boy is nine and older, then at that point, potentially there's so much socialization and so much opportunity that you might be able to experience living closer to a city that, you know, that, that becomes a little bit more accessible and helpful for that stage of development.
• 28:41
  And so we had that, you know, pretty much with our son Jackson, we lived on six acres and abutted to others. And then around the time when he turned about nine years old is when we moved closer to a more urban environment. And yeah, it was a really good mixture. And so I think these are really important thoughts as well, to your point about, you know, sometimes we do have to,
• 29:02
  really put our own preferences to one side to figure out what's really best for our kids and the seasons they're in. So that's really helpful. And you mentioned, Chris, and we're going to transition to this other video. And I want to think about this broader topic of masculinity. And as we're thinking about this as fathers are raising sons to really, what are some of the definitions of that? But you had mentioned just
• 29:27
  that you had this experience of, you know, being medicated and like kind of being diagnosed and then kind of coming out of that and realizing, okay, this is going to actually, is this really true? And is this going to hamper the calling that God has on my life? I think I'm sure a lot of guys listening to this have had that experience, right. Of,
• 29:44
  well, I was raised this way and I've sort of been institutionalized at some level. Do I have to recover? How does that, what does that look like? So I'd love for you to maybe speak to a little bit more about what that experience was like for you. And then, yeah, I'd love to get your take on this next clip, but go ahead. Yeah, I think the only thing to add in on that conversation is just, there's things that we see as detriments that I think are actually gifts. And so I think,
• 30:12
  It's highly possible that I have what might be considered a clinical level of ADHD. But when you create the right systems and kind of boundaries for yourself, you can actually leverage that more as, I think, a superpower, right? Like my brain...
• 30:28
  was designed this way for a purpose. I don't think that this is like a disability. I think I actually have this level and gear and energy that most people don't have. And my wife is always commenting on it. And so it's like, okay, how do I create the right boundaries for myself and rethink about this as a superpower rather than a disease and then leverage it to maximize for...
• 30:56
  whatever kingdom building purposes the Lord has me using it for. And so I think a lot of guys might struggle with the same thing, or it might just be the system orientation that they need to undo. But there's always something that can be leveraged. I think it's just rethinking how it gets used.
• 31:15
  Okay. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. Really being thoughtful about, is there an actual advantage? So many disadvantages have advantages. Like there's two sides of the coin. And if you assume that one environment, like an academic environment is the
• 31:34
  primary way or a lens through which you decide if something is primarily an advantage or disadvantage, then you might just be in the wrong arena for that particular skill. So that's really good. All right. So Scott Galloway, he's been making the rounds. He's got a new book out. He's talking a lot about the definition of masculinity. And so I've listed many, many of his interviews, but
• 31:55
  He mentioned this one concept that I've been thinking a lot about lately. So I wanted to play this clip for you and, and try to understand what this means for our understanding of masculinity. And.
• 32:08
  Richard Reeves of Boys and Men fame has this great frame, and that is adding surplus value. I teach my boys, I'm like, you're negative value right now. Your mom spends a ton of time. We spend a ton of money on you. We give you more love than you give us. You go to school, this incredible infrastructure is spending time and energy to educate you. I'm like, when you become a man is when you're doing enough for other people that you're adding surplus value. You're producing more than you're taking.
• 32:38
  This is one thing I found that this idea of are you actually sort of justifying your existence? Are you sucking more out of the world? Like there's multiple lenses to think about this through. I think a lot of times women really struggle with this as a concept because I don't think this is really an appropriate way to think about femininity.
• 32:59
  I think there's a different way to think about it. I think there's an appropriate way to ask this question, you know, in that context. But I think men need to ask this question. And I think that there's going to be a lot of bristling about, like, this does seem contrary to the nature of the gospel. Like, we essentially are just granted through grace this amazing gift of eternal life and that we're granted this identity as sons. And so I do think that there is an initial step that obviously Scott's not going to tease out.
• 33:26
  in this conversation because it's not about the gospel and he's not a believer. But I think, I think if you start with the assumption that we can't bring anything to the table for our own justification, we've been saved purely by grace and that we receive that identity of sonship. At that point, there does need to be this conversation about, am I
• 33:47
  you need to be some, you need to be making this calculation. Am I taking away more than I'm giving? So yeah, I want to make sure that we're thinking about this through that lens. We are first saved. And then we asked this question, not, not as a way to earn our salvation, but as a way of really understanding, you know, is there, is there a systemic taking ness in my life in general? So he teases this out some more. And I think this is a really great conversation to have with sons and a family context. I love that frame. At some point,
• 34:15
  In the service of others, are you actually giving more than you're taking? You know, that's our economy is based on that. Companies that take in resources and then output more than the cost of the resources going in. I don't know how I thought of the ketamine therapy, but the only kind of real actionable item I took away from it was like my boys kept coming up. And I thought, if I can love my boys more than people have loved me, if I can push more of that confidence and concern and love to other people,
• 34:41
  That's the real surplus value, right? And that was a nice framing for me. That's like, I wanted to come out with some intentionality around my purpose. That was what I took from it is I have these vessels that really are open and sponges of my time, regard, attention, and love. And if I think one of my purposes as a man is surplus value is how can I
• 35:06
  do more of that for them than was done for me. I have a very complicated relationship with my father. He wasn't very good to me or my mom. But here's the thing. He was much better to me than his dad was to him. And I'm like, okay, he's checked the box in the universe. He's added surplus value. But I think that's a great frame for men.
• 35:24
  It's important to say like the way he's describing this is really there's two calculations he's describing. One is sort of, I would say like a micro calculation of surplus value, which is in your own home. Like all this stuff is being done for you. Are you actually, so you're talking to your son and you're making him aware that there's enormous resources being poured into him. And so part of what he needs to be thinking about on a week to week basis is am I giving back?
• 35:49
  Then there's this much more macro question he's like teasing out. And he's saying, from the perspective of my multi-generational family, am I actually providing more value to my family downstream than my father provided for me when I was, that's a really good question to ask. You know, I think I've seen in certain situations that again, it really balances the scales properly because you have people that.
• 36:14
  really have come from incredibly difficult backgrounds. And it's amazing what they're accomplishing in their generation. So a lot of this comes from, you know, the way of thinking about this is if you started at third base, you know, don't think that you hit a home run when you get home, right? Some people are starting from a much, much earlier place. And so we have to be really careful with comparison game.
• 36:35
  How do we think about it? Do we primarily compare ourselves to people that have come from much more healthy families? Or are we trying to make sure that we're leveling up every generation? And I do think there's a tragedy to going down, you know, really leveling down in the next generation. That always really, and that strikes me very differently. And I think that we can all give each other that kind of grace that no, part of what we're trying to do is, is improve generationally. Okay. So then he's going to finish his thought here.
• 37:05
  Really think about young men, the resources, the government, your family, our society are investing in you. And at what point does it flip and you're actually adding more value than you're taking? And a lot of men never get there and grow up thinking that the world is just about giving them shit and spending time and love on them.
• 37:25
  I think that's a great frame for what it means to be a man. So this, and the Reeves book about, about boys, I think is where he said, he kind of comes up with this frame. So I just want to get your thoughts, Chris. What do you think of this idea? Is, is there something core to being a man to masculinity in this sort of calculation of surplus values? Is this helpful? Is this somehow harmful? Like how do you process this?
• 37:51
  Yeah, I think, I mean, it's great that you called out the gospel piece to begin with, because I think we work from grace, not for grace. But then I think when you work from grace, if you have this immense gift given to you, it's like your response should be this overwhelming sense of duty, an overwhelming sense of response and love and gratitude.
• 38:15
  And that has to, I think, play out in really impactful ways of intentionally shaping the culture around you, shaping, you know, the world around you. I agree with you that there's two elements, you know, there's the micro and the macro. I would even say like, it's,
• 38:32
  It's not just even the family piece, but it's also like, what are these future generations doing to the world? And like, when we think about the cultural mandate, you know, in Genesis 128, it's like we're to be taking something into the world and shaping and bringing a new culture. And so...
• 38:49
  I want to both set up my family multi-generationally with like what they need to continue to give more than they take, but also what are they doing then that produces that next level of impact on the world around them? And I think innate to a man, this, this, this should be something. I mean, this is, we did this in the military.
• 39:11
  Everywhere we went, there was this often unspoken, but sometimes very loudly spoken rule when you needed the reminding that we always leave things better than we found them. And that has really stuck with me. So like we went over to my mother-in-law's house the other day and she wasn't home and we were doing something over there. And then we were getting ready to head back to our place. And it's like reminding the boys, Hey, we leave this better than we found it. And
• 39:37
  I think that's an element in a very small way of displaying this characteristic is, okay, just because there was dog hair on the wood floor when we got here doesn't mean we don't have an opportunity to clean that up. So it's not just putting away the toys that you guys played with in the guest room, but Asher grabbed a Swiffer and went around and got all the dog hair picked up in the kitchen. Yeah.
• 40:01
  It's like, those are those little things. And I think that accelerates as you get older into thinking about business. Like he said, if you're extracting more value from customers than you are giving them, then your business is inevitable to fail. Right. And if you're giving more value, this is why Alex Hormozzi is blowing up because the guy is just giving...
• 40:22
  exponential amount of value everywhere that he can turn. And the return is that these companies are growing into a massive place and then they come to him to invest in the business and it growed even more. And it's like, yeah. So yeah, that's what comes to mind for me. Well, I love, I love the idea of just like, and if, and I think this is, I think we have to understand how difficult this is for kids to see, like you have to make it somehow explicit. Like when I, I have, you know, when I calculate,
• 40:49
  the amount of chaos that I create in my own home by grabbing a dish, drinking, putting this, like leaving things around the house. I'm constantly creating messes. Like if I were to take in one week, the amount of chaos that I have personally produced in my own house, the amount of work to overcome that chaos, the amount of dishes that have to be clean, the amount of places that need to be, like things need to be put back, like on and on and on. Like kids just generally,
• 41:17
  They think they're magically in a world where they can just create an endless amount of chaos and that someone is going to be running after them, picking up all these things and to actually just get back to even. I think the intuitions that we have, what it takes to get back to even is like, well, if I throw a couple of dishes in the dishwasher, I'm basically getting back to even. Like, no, no, no. So you have to somehow find a way to like show kids like, no, this is there's a lot of work that goes into things.
• 41:42
  all the things that need to be done in a household to make sure that we are creating that surplus value. And that needs to be your target. Don't make your target breaking even. Make your target surplus value. Like, I want to leave things better than I found them. And that's not easy. It's really easy to leave things more chaotic. And so I think that this entitlement that is inevitable when you don't have this expectation for kids. And I think this is a real problem for a lot of people today is that they think, well,
• 42:09
  I brought these kids into the world. It's really my responsibility to make sure that I am giving them surplus value endlessly. That doesn't help kids at all. They're living in a world in which as soon as they have the power to create that value, you want to begin to give them avenues for doing that and then raise the bar properly and create that expectation that this is what it means for you to be a really contributing person.
• 42:33
  And I do think that this is a really important topic as well when it comes to business, right? I do, I agree with you. Like, I think that when you're creating a business, I think there are so many businesses that are essentially their model itself is parasitical. You know, I think that if you could somehow, you just figure out a way to through, you
• 42:54
  investing in cryptocurrency, I can just make a lot of money and do zero work other than just make a few trades or something, then a lot of people are just attracted to that kind of way of producing income. And they're looking for the easiest possible way. And I think that we need to aim at value creation. And it's not that investing doesn't create some kind of value, but it isn't a great way to primarily think about how you're going to
• 43:24
  And I think a lot of people are just being taught that take the easiest road possible instead of maximizing value. And I think there is something within masculinity that I think needs to be stirred up in men. Like I want to create as much value as I can. I don't know what that is, but I'm going to really attempt to do this as much as I can to figure out.
• 43:45
  How can I create as much order as possible? There's so many people in society that are really net negatives when it comes to the creation of value. They're really like just sucking value out of the system that it's going to require a lot of work from many, many of the rest of us and our families, our children and our grandchildren to make up the difference so that we create a world in which there is surplus value for everyone to enjoy.
• 44:09
  And so that basic calculation, I think is really helpful. And I think it's an important lens through which to be training boys and also expecting from men in general. We are the creators of that surplus value. So yeah, anything else that stirs up for you as you think about that principle?
• 44:28
  I think one thing that you said that just kind of shook me and I, I, this is maybe half baked, but the amount that it takes even just to get back to even that requires an awareness going into the original circumstance to even know what constitutes even. Yeah. And I think that there's a general level of unawareness that.
• 44:49
  we have as men, as boys in the culture. And it's like, I think we're a little bit, and I say this for myself, a little delusional at times about how much it actually takes to get back to even because I'm lacking the kind of head on a swivel awareness of like what's going on around me.
• 45:09
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• 45:36
  It's a place where men sharpen each other and learn how to grow both their business and their household. If that's what you've been needing, head to familyteams.com slash integrated. And so I haven't quite figured out how do I train that better in myself or in the boys, but I think that's a critical piece.
• 45:56
  Yeah, that's a challenging thing to figure out. I've been trying to figure out how to become more aware of myself. I mean, I feel like there are a lot of women who are sort of have like an innate radar for that. Like they just know how much chaos they're creating and they're very conscientious about it and they're just constantly attempting to get back to even or to get to surplus value. And then all of a sudden, you know, some kind of clueless, completely unaware, you know, boy or man walks into the situation and just...
• 46:25
  constantly is creating negative value. And, you know, it's, it's, it's really important that we build up that awareness and we take, you know, a certain amount of responsibility. Like I want to do this, you know, and I, I just want to go back to, to the last thing that he mentioned, which is, and I, I, I, I struggle with exactly how much to, you know,
• 46:46
  really push into this, but if you're going to have grace in that macro sense for the father who was maybe abused by his father, and then he raises a family that where he's not abusive, I think that is such a huge accomplishment and we need to understand and acknowledge that. But at the same time, if we're going to do that, we also have to become aware. And I've, I've,
• 47:08
  And I think this is a challenge and I, I wonder how this is going to be, how this is sort of absorbed like by my son or by your sons, Chris, you know, there's a different level of challenge when, when men like us, we are really, really trying to do, to, to do everything we can to help our families succeed and bless our future generations. And then I'll, then we're, the bar is now much higher for, you know, your sons, you know? Yeah.
• 47:34
  And for my son, for them to create surplus value, if my ceiling is their floor, then they need to. And I think part of the way I think about how I'm going to help my son create surplus value is I'm not going to lay this ridiculous expectation on his shoulders and say, I know this is going to be really hard, you know, but I need you to constantly compare yourself to me. I feel like that's not the appropriate way to do it. I think that it's better. And this is something that I'm working on a lot with Jackson, and that is like,
• 48:01
  I want to partner with you and give you things that I think were difficult and not given to me. I was given a ton by my dad. My dad took so much ground for our family. But there are elements that I think I've been able to take that are unique. And I want Jackson to sort of, you know, get to where my dad was, get to where I am and
• 48:22
  as quick, like quickly as possible, maybe at an earlier stage. And so, so that he can, he can, we can see how he's going to expand the family, you know, in this next generation. So yeah, any thoughts about when you are in a highly functional family, raising sons,
• 48:37
  And then creating this expectation, how do we do this in a nuanced way that doesn't put an undue burden on them, but appropriately motivates them to think about, okay, what does this look like in my generation, given what I have been given by the previous generation?
• 48:55
  Yeah, I think the only way that I know how to even wrap my mind around that is more prayerful response and teaching my boys to be in tune to what the Spirit is kind of doing in the family, because I think it'd be really easy. I mean, we see in the New Testament examples of Paul being led by the Spirit to a particular place, and then the Spirit not letting him go into that place and changing direction. So, I think it's possible that,
• 49:22
  That the vision that the Lord gives us for our family actually pivots in future generations. And so the best thing I think I can do is like, okay, you need to be at the feet of the Lord and asking him like, okay, what's the vision from this generation forward? And how's that gonna look? Cause it might not look financially or economically or, or excuse me, like from a business standpoint, like the same, or even from a church standpoint or whatever. And so.
• 49:52
  That's something that, yeah, because otherwise, otherwise you're just imposing a specific set of standards around how things need to look that may or may not actually be suited for those next generations. And perhaps they're being prepared to impact a future generation differently than we were because the world is changing so rapidly. I don't know. That's...
• 50:16
  That's where my mind goes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like part of what you're doing is you're helping your son establish a partnership with God. And it's in that partnership because he's led by the Holy Spirit to make sure that you are, you're not going to be able to do just in your flesh, figure out what that surplus value looks like. You have to fully live into whatever God has for you. And we're here to help. But man, it's like that is the exciting journey that you get to go on with God.
• 50:44
  your heavenly father. And to the extent that they're embracing that and exploring that, then this surplus value thing sort of takes care of itself, right? At some level. And I like what you're saying too, about we have to be really careful not to sort of obsess about the measures that are really easy to measure. Like,
• 51:01
  how much money exactly did dad make? And I, there are, there are some sons and Alex Hormozzi actually says this about his story. He's like, he was obsessed without earning his dad. And until he got to that place, he almost couldn't think about anything else. Um, and so once he got to that place, he realized, why am I obsessed with this? You know? And I think that, uh, I think that
• 51:21
  we aren't going to be able to ultimately calculate the kind of impact we're having. But I think that, I think to your point, yeah, let's follow the Holy spirit and let, let God give us a vision for what that looks like in each generation. And as we're setting each generation up to,
• 51:38
  really maximize whatever God is, whatever adventure, whatever expansion, whatever rootfulness God has for that generation, then yeah, this is, this is gonna, this is gonna be done just through them leaning into what that looks like in their, in their life. So,
• 51:54
  Yeah, this is good. I love having these conversations, really trying to understand how do we raise sons and how do we understand the nature of what God has created in creating men in a way that really helps our boys capture and understand that and live into that. So, yeah, thanks a lot for exploring this with me, Chris. Yeah, my pleasure.
• 52:16
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