Latest / Ministry Minded / Vanity, Vapor, and God’s Gift of Joy with Josiah Ott

Transcript

Vanity, Vapor, and God’s Gift of Joy with Josiah Ott · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_02: ministries.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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SPEAKER_02: I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church in Paximus,
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SPEAKER_02: Pennsylvania,
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SPEAKER_02: and I'm delighted to have a local friend and fellow pastor,
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SPEAKER_02: a minister in the trenches with me in central Pennsylvania,
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SPEAKER_02: Josiah Ott.
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SPEAKER_02: He pastors a
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Right here in central Pennsylvania with me,
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alongside me,
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just down the road from me.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm so excited to have him on the show.
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We got to sit down together in person in my office and chat
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about life and ministry
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SPEAKER_02: and pastoring,
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SPEAKER_02: but also this book that he has just published.
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SPEAKER_02: It's called From Vanity to Joy.
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SPEAKER_02: It is a book that talks all about Ecclesiastes.
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It emerged out of Josiah's own studies on the book of
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Ecclesiastes and how this
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book radically changed his life and even how his views on that
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book changed as he
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was preaching and teaching and studying this book and why
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sometimes Ecclesiastes is
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SPEAKER_02: misunderstood and why its message is so pertinent and timely.
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SPEAKER_02: If you've been at Stonington before,
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SPEAKER_02: you know that one of the first sermon series I did was on Ecclesiastes.
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SPEAKER_02: This book holds a dear place in my heart,
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SPEAKER_02: and I was so excited when Josiah was preaching through it.
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SPEAKER_02: And then when he told me that he was going to write a book on it,
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SPEAKER_02: I was just delighted for that and how he has framed it.
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SPEAKER_02: his own interactions and engagement with the story,
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how God's word has changed even his own perceptions and really
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informed his faith.
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SPEAKER_02: So sit back and relax and enjoy this episode.
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SPEAKER_02: We talk about Ecclesiastes,
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SPEAKER_02: the gospel that's found in it,
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SPEAKER_02: and the joy that actually is also found in it,
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SPEAKER_02: the joy of knowing God and being known by him.
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It's actually found in this book that sometimes is often
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perceived as a book of depression.
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SPEAKER_02: So
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SPEAKER_02: So sit back,
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SPEAKER_02: relax,
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SPEAKER_02: enjoy this episode as Josiah and I talk about Ecclesiastes and much,
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SPEAKER_02: much more.
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SPEAKER_02: Josiah, welcome to the show.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited that you're here.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad that we can make this happen.
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SPEAKER_02: I've been wanting to have you on for a long time,
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SPEAKER_02: not just because you're a local pastor,
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SPEAKER_02: which you are,
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SPEAKER_02: but also just because you have done podcasting in the past,
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SPEAKER_02: and I figured it would be a good hang.
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SPEAKER_02: So
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SPEAKER_02: Josiah, welcome to the show.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.
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SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're here.
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For those who don't know you,
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you're on Substack and all that kind of stuff.
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So introduce yourself,
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your family,
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your church,
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your ministry,
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all that kind of stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: So my name is Josiah.
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I am the pastor of Grace Chapel,
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about 10 minutes from Brad down the road.
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SPEAKER_00: And I got a wife named Brittany,
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SPEAKER_00: got two little girls and another little girl on the way coming...
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SPEAKER_00: In a month, month and a half, somewhere in there.
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SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, girl dad.
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SPEAKER_00: Drowning in estrogen, but it's been good.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a lot of fun.
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SPEAKER_00: Hashtag girl dad.
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SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's right, 100%.
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SPEAKER_00: And, yeah, I've been on Substack now for almost a year.
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SPEAKER_00: That's been fun.
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And kind of taken my writing journey and made it a little bit
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more official,
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SPEAKER_00: kind of was just background,
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SPEAKER_00: doing a little bit of stuff here and there,
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SPEAKER_00: and finally decided to put it out into the light a little bit.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's been kind of fun to, yeah, fun to see how it's going.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I love that.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Substack has been such a fun community.
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SPEAKER_02: You've talked a lot about this, I think.
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You and I off air,
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but also even on your Substack,
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you've talked about this.
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SPEAKER_02: Just like getting to know people through like these online forums,
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SPEAKER_02: it can kind of seem like this ethereal thing,
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SPEAKER_02: this ephemeral thing.
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SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have a lot of like teeth into it.
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SPEAKER_02: But for whatever reason, Substack feels different.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's just because we're biased because we're on there.
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SPEAKER_02: but it feels different.
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SPEAKER_02: I've had a lot of good connections.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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It's funny that you talk about Substack and I was talking to
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somebody the other day
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SPEAKER_00: on there about how I advertised Facebook as being,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to remember how I said it.
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SPEAKER_00: What did I say?
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SPEAKER_00: Number one, being a waste of time.
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SPEAKER_00: And number two, being fraught with negativity.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like,
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SPEAKER_00: if you want to sum up Facebook,
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SPEAKER_00: it's fraught with negativity and it's a waste of time.
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SPEAKER_00: And then you come to Substack and it's this whole different
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community of people and I don't know if it's their algorithm I
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don't know if it's
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just I don't want to say the quality of people on there because
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that makes it sound
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SPEAKER_00: like people that use Facebook are no good but
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SPEAKER_00: I'm on Facebook too.
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SPEAKER_00: But one of the neat things about Substack is the community there,
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SPEAKER_00: and especially my algorithm,
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SPEAKER_00: is it actually feeds me stuff I want to see.
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So that's been really fun that I hop on and it's not a bunch of
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junk about the news
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SPEAKER_00: that I'm not interested in.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not a bunch of like,
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this crazy bad thing happened and here's all the different
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takes that no one can
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SPEAKER_00: agree on.
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You get on there and it's good Bible-believing Christians just
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putting out content
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SPEAKER_00: and different things and trying to love on one another.
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SPEAKER_00: What's really neat is
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talking about this book is I've had a bunch of people kind of
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conversing about it,
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SPEAKER_00: but I actually connected with a guy from Ireland.
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SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's really neat.
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SPEAKER_00: So he's like an apologetics guy.
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SPEAKER_00: His name's the layman apologist.
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SPEAKER_00: He's on Substack and YouTube and all those things.
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SPEAKER_00: And he's into like the,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say argumentation side,
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SPEAKER_00: but more,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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SPEAKER_00: logic is probably a better way of putting it,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: You know, of like the Christian faith, right?
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So in one of my chapters,
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my book is not supposed to really be like an apologetics
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textbook by any means,
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SPEAKER_00: but I dip my toe into apologetics a tiny bit.
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And,
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uh,
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I'm not like an expert arguer,
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you know,
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like analyzing logic,
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analyzing,
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um,
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SPEAKER_00: What are they called?
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SPEAKER_00: The faulty ways of thinking, whatever.
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SPEAKER_00: The word's not coming to me.
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SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_00: I do.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the fallacies, logical fallacies and stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: So he's really into that,
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SPEAKER_00: and he was going on some different things,
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SPEAKER_00: and he's like,
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SPEAKER_00: here's this logical fallacy.
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SPEAKER_00: Here's why this argument doesn't hold weight.
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SPEAKER_00: And I hit him up one day.
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SPEAKER_00: I was like,
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SPEAKER_00: since you're into all that stuff and you know logical fallacies,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: like the logic side of things really good.
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So would you read one of the subheadings of my book and see if
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I'm an idiot or not?
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SPEAKER_00: You know, basically like, is this actually a good, you know, argument?
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SPEAKER_00: Is this actually decent logic?
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SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it was super cool.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like this guy from Ireland that in real life I would have never met.
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SPEAKER_00: And he read it.
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SPEAKER_00: He gave me some feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: He's like, you know, I think this is really good.
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SPEAKER_00: Here's how you could sharpen your argument and it'd be better.
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And I was like,
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you know,
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now that you you hit me with that,
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it's like I totally,
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totally agree.
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SPEAKER_00: Like what you're what you say has a lot of merit to it.
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SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I updated it, you know, according to his suggestions.
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SPEAKER_00: I thought it was much better.
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SPEAKER_00: Sent it back to him.
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SPEAKER_00: He read it again.
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SPEAKER_00: He's like, yeah, I think this is great.
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SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So like the internet has brought about,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: countless evil things,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: and like,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: everybody knows the evil stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: But then you can connect with believers across the globe.
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And,
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you know,
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not only for the purpose of edification,
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but like this guy helped me out.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is good to be found on the internet.
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SPEAKER_00: As hard as that may be to believe sometimes.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's found on Substack.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
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SPEAKER_02: I want to talk about your book,
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SPEAKER_02: but first,
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SPEAKER_02: before we get there,
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SPEAKER_02: your pastor,
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SPEAKER_02: you and I have connected a lot about that.
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SPEAKER_02: How long have you been at Grace Chapel?
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SPEAKER_00: I've been at Grace Chapel for about three and a half years.
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SPEAKER_02: Three and a half years, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I came into Stonington...
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right before like COVID hit,
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you were kind of like right after all that kind of stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: But we were both kind of young guys in ministry,
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coming into ministry at such a weird time in maybe global
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politics or American
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SPEAKER_02: history or whatever you want to say.
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SPEAKER_02: So like,
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SPEAKER_02: what are some of the things that you've learned,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: your three odd years into ministry?
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SPEAKER_02: What are some things that you've learned,
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some things that have like developed for you as being not just
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an expositor,
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SPEAKER_02: but a pastor,
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SPEAKER_02: a shepherd of people?
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SPEAKER_02: Sure.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
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So I wouldn't say by any means I'm an expert on much of
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anything at this point in
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SPEAKER_00: time,
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SPEAKER_00: but definitely grown a little bit.
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SPEAKER_00: I found that one of the things that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: really for me in ministry,
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and I think that makes such a difference across the board is
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remembering that
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SPEAKER_00: people are people.
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and that they have their own dreams,
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their own desires,
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their own personalities.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that a big part of ministry is not just looking at the,
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I don't want to say the more spectacular side of Bible
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exposition and proclamation
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SPEAKER_00: and all the fun stuff that people think about.
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SPEAKER_00: But if you can actually love people as people and do that genuinely,
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SPEAKER_00: not with a agenda to get them to listen to you better,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that that's really,
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SPEAKER_00: really a helpful thing.
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SPEAKER_00: In my former position,
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I definitely felt like I was – I don't want to say dehumanized
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in – like they
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SPEAKER_00: weren't like the most awful people.
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SPEAKER_00: But if you're kind of lower on the organizational chart,
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SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_00: sometimes you can be treated like a cog in the machine.
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SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like you lose some of your humanity.
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SPEAKER_00: with how people treat you.
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It's like,
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you know,
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the classic idea is you should treat people the way you want to
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be treated.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like, that's, you know, what you teach to kindergartners.
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SPEAKER_00: And sometimes as adults,
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SPEAKER_00: we forget that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: you get into these positions and it's like,
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SPEAKER_00: you just start treating everybody as a piece of the machine.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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they got their task and you kind of disassociate them as from
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being a person.
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SPEAKER_00: And I found that for me,
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one of the most helpful things is to remember that everyone's
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got their own lives,
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SPEAKER_00: their own personality,
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SPEAKER_00: their own dreams,
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SPEAKER_00: their own them,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: that they kind of bring to the table.
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And trying to love them as individuals and trying to help them
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genuinely as
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individuals to grow in their relationship with God and their
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service to the church
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SPEAKER_00: and different things,
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SPEAKER_00: to me,
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SPEAKER_00: has gone a long way.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and having that be one of the focuses.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm here...
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SPEAKER_00: I think often to what Peter says in 1 Peter 4,
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SPEAKER_00: talking about using your gifts,
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SPEAKER_00: being good stewards of your gifts as each has received a gift,
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SPEAKER_00: use it.
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SPEAKER_00: Basically,
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the two ways you steward gifts well is for the glory of God and
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for the service of
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SPEAKER_00: others.
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And so when people are ultimately your motivation,
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like to try to actually help people.
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and to serve them rather than serving myself,
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and in so doing,
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glorifying God.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's kind of where I'm at.
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SPEAKER_00: That's my goal, and I think we're doing it pretty well at Grace Chapel.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: you hear testimonies of people's lives being impacted,
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and I try to think a lot of the concept of church growth being
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more about the
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SPEAKER_00: believers themselves growing rather than just the numbers.
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SPEAKER_00: Correct.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think so many times people are like,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: your success in ministry is like,
10:20
SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: you need a bigger church.
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And you look at people like Joel Osteen,
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you're like,
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well,
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is he successful?
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SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people would say, well, from a worldly perspective, yes.
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SPEAKER_00: But if you're sacrificing truth in order to get people in the pews,
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SPEAKER_00: it's like,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'd call that success.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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And loving God more and serving him better and understanding
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his word more.
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SPEAKER_00: That's great church growth.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's awesome.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
10:42
SPEAKER_00: like it doesn't,
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SPEAKER_00: you don't see it on Sunday mornings,
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SPEAKER_00: but when you see it in their hearts,
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SPEAKER_00: it's like that means more to me than.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: than more people in the seats.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
10:49
SPEAKER_00: I'll take both,
10:50
SPEAKER_00: but like,
10:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:52
SPEAKER_00: but like,
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SPEAKER_00: that's my,
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SPEAKER_00: that's my goal is to help the believers.
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SPEAKER_00: And so that's really where we've been at.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's been a good journey so far.
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SPEAKER_00: I definitely don't think I have it all figured out.
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SPEAKER_00: I definitely still get a very strong sense of imposter syndrome.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: You know,
11:05
SPEAKER_00: it's hard to go from being the,
11:07
SPEAKER_00: the guy kind of on the bottom,
11:09
SPEAKER_00: like,
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
11:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:09
SPEAKER_00: we got this,
11:10
SPEAKER_00: this toilet that needs fixed,
11:11
SPEAKER_00: or you need to go change this light bulb.
11:13
And you're just kind of always being sent by other people to
11:16
all of a sudden,
11:16
like,
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SPEAKER_00: The pastor of the church.
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SPEAKER_00: Like,
11:19
SPEAKER_00: it just still doesn't,
11:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: when people would call me Pastor Ott or just addressing me as pastor,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
11:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:23
SPEAKER_00: kind of turn around like...
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Who are they talking to?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who are they talking to?
11:26
You know,
11:26
and it's like,
11:28
I still don't think it's...
11:30
I still don't think I'm quite there.
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SPEAKER_00: I still don't think it's clicked.
11:32
You know,
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like,
11:33
three years later,
11:33
I'm like,
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I don't know if that ever changes,
11:35
but...
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: You've been around for like six years?
11:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've been here.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm going on seven.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: Going on seven, okay.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if that ever changes.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: My mind goes to like when Paul, he's talking in 1 Corinthians 15, right?
11:47
SPEAKER_02: And he's like, I'm the least of all the apostles.
11:50
Like even he as an apostle,
11:52
and he's been an apostle for years at that point.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: He was like, I'm the lowest on the totem pole.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that that sense of...
12:00
SPEAKER_02: it's not like a fake, I don't think it's a fake humility.
12:03
I think it's actually an honest,
12:06
sort of honest admission of the sense of our calling,
12:11
right?
12:11
Like I think part of being a pastor is not getting caught up in
12:16
some of the
12:16
SPEAKER_02: minutiae of what it means to shepherd people on a daily basis.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: But I think you have to be involved in that, sure.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: But also being able to step back and remember like,
12:31
SPEAKER_02: the enormity of the calling,
12:32
and that's not meant to be some sort of thing that gives us a
12:36
lot of pressure or
12:37
SPEAKER_02: expectation.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: It's just meant to give us that sense of, like, awe.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's humbling.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's humbling.
12:43
Paul Tripp talks about that in his book called Awe,
12:46
this sense of just,
12:47
like,
12:47
remembering...
12:49
um who we are our identity like our smallness our like we are
12:53
kind of insignificant
12:55
and like that kind of exceedingly insignificant we're
12:58
insignificant we're also um
13:00
very replaceable and that's i mean i'm i'm very fine with that
13:04
like my i can be
13:06
replaced very easily and uh that sense of of knowing that like
13:11
what truly matters
13:13
SPEAKER_02: yeah isn't
13:15
me right it's it's it's the ministry of the word that's what
13:17
matters and i think
13:18
that's what paul is getting at when he's like i'm the least of
13:20
the apostles and
13:21
then he goes on he's like but i worked harder than all of them
13:23
yep not because like
13:25
he was trying to earn something but he but he says right in
13:28
that same passage but
13:29
because the grace of god was working in me and working through
13:32
me and i think that
13:34
is that's that's sort of like even to like now mixing a lot of
13:38
paul stuff but like
13:39
SPEAKER_02: that's the
13:40
SPEAKER_02: the upward call that he talks about in Philippians.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of what I aspire to,
13:45
SPEAKER_02: that,
13:45
SPEAKER_02: like,
13:46
SPEAKER_02: what he talks about in 1 Corinthians 15,
13:48
SPEAKER_02: just being like,
13:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm the least of all of this,
13:50
but I'm going to work harder than anyone because the grace of
13:53
God is working in me,
13:54
SPEAKER_02: so to speak.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when you realize how much you don't deserve it.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, I was...
13:59
SPEAKER_00: I try to do personal devotions beyond like church stuff.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: It's hard because it's like you got, you got church Sunday morning stuff.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: You got church Wednesday night stuff.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: You got, I'm trying to do this writing ministry in Oregon Kings.
14:09
And then I'm trying to do my own,
14:11
like on top of that,
14:12
I still need to feed my soul.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: And I was in Galatians.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm in Galatians right now.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: And then Galatians too.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: You saw my thing on Substack.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it was two weeks ago,
14:19
SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
14:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Paul talks about how God was calling him before his mother's womb.
14:25
And it's like,
14:25
there was a moment in time when God was pleased to reveal his
14:28
son in Paul.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: And that's when Paul's calling went public.
14:31
That's when everyone realized that Saul of Tarsus was going to
14:33
be Paul the apostle.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: And like,
14:35
SPEAKER_00: To human beings, this was not, right?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Because like... Yeah.
14:39
Like nobody saw...
14:41
No,
14:41
it was on nobody's bingo card that this guy was going to be an
14:45
apostle.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:46
And that he was going to be like the most impactful person in
14:49
the history of
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Christianity aside from the Lord Jesus himself.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Like nobody saw that coming.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: And we forget about that because we read it so many times.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: We're like, oh yeah, we know Acts 9 is coming.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: They didn't know Acts 9 was coming.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: They had no clue.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, for them, it's like, this is nuts.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: But Paul says, listen, this is God's plan all along.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, and that's kind of my takeaway.
15:06
It's like,
15:07
if God's appointed us to this before we were even born,
15:09
how can we deserve that?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, I wasn't even here.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: It's not like, you know, I'm here and I do some good stuff.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: And then God says, you know, I think you got some potential.
15:16
It's like God appointed us to this task before we were ever
15:19
even a thought in our parents' mind.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's if we were even a thought in our parents' mind.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, some people are surprised.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole nother story.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: You know,
15:26
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
15:26
but the infinite almighty God took pleasure in appointing us to
15:30
his service.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: And like, that is...
15:32
SPEAKER_00: That is a thing that if that doesn't humble you, I don't know what does.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
15:35
SPEAKER_02: I love that perspective,
15:36
SPEAKER_02: too,
15:36
SPEAKER_02: because in Acts 9,
15:37
SPEAKER_02: I think it talks about how there's this reaction out of the church,
15:41
SPEAKER_02: almost like this guy.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they didn't want to accept him.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: It makes total sense why they would react that way.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: But then that also kind of magnifies Barnabas' ministry,
15:51
SPEAKER_02: because Barnabas the encourager is one of these...
15:54
SPEAKER_02: first guys who kind of stands in Paul's corner.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: So it kind of makes sense on both sides.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: You get the reaction of the church.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: It makes total sense why they would be reacting this way.
16:04
But then it makes you realize,
16:06
man,
16:06
Barnabas is kind of sticking his neck out for this guy.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: He's got guts.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he does.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: And so it makes you appreciate that all the more.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: And it's amazing just to see.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Galatians is such a fascinating book.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: There's so many different facets to it.
16:21
SPEAKER_02: Paul talking about
16:22
And he's making his defense for his apostleship in that first
16:26
chapter where he's
16:26
SPEAKER_02: talking about like,
16:27
SPEAKER_02: no,
16:27
SPEAKER_02: I didn't receive this from anyone.
16:29
He's like,
16:30
he's not undermining Peter,
16:31
but he's also like,
16:32
I didn't go to Peter.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: I didn't go to the apostles.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: I didn't go to John to get this and like,
16:37
SPEAKER_02: you know, become schooled in this.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: No, I received this from the risen Lord himself.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: And anyway, it alludes to your calling.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Like this is, God had a specific calling for Paul in mind.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what keeps him humble because he knows who he was.
16:51
And again,
16:53
to kind of bring that full circle,
16:54
that's why he says,
16:55
I'm the least of the apostles.
16:56
He knows he is one because he saw the risen Lord and he
16:58
received this gospel from him.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: But then he's like, I don't deserve this.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm not worthy of this.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think that is a, such a propel,
17:07
SPEAKER_02: It's like a propellant for Paul.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: It's like such a stimulus for Paul.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: That undeservedness,
17:13
SPEAKER_02: that uncanny grace that he was given,
17:15
SPEAKER_02: it was always propelling him in whatever he did for the Lord.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, his whole life was a response to this.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
17:22
SPEAKER_00: it's like what he said in Romans,
17:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:25
SPEAKER_00: in light of the mercies of God,
17:26
SPEAKER_00: he sent your bodies his living sacrifice.
17:27
It's like,
17:28
you look at all God's done for you,
17:29
how could you not respond to that?
17:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: And when you see Paul like, I'm the chief of sinners.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: And that's not his...
17:36
SPEAKER_00: that's not just like him being what, like that's his real perspective.
17:40
Like I don't,
17:41
you know,
17:42
Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners of whom I am
17:44
chief.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't deserve this.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: And like all of it is just a big thank you.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what the, that's what the Christian life is.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: A big thank you.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: That's good.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: I want to transition to talking about your book because you just are,
17:57
SPEAKER_02: that's been a big project for you.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: We've been, you've been talking about it for a while.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: And I,
18:02
SPEAKER_02: Talk about kind of where it came from.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: It's called,
18:05
SPEAKER_02: well,
18:05
SPEAKER_02: give us the title,
18:06
SPEAKER_02: give us the premise,
18:07
SPEAKER_02: tell us kind of where it kind of emerged out of,
18:10
and also why you think Ecclesiastes is a book of the Bible that
18:14
kind of changed
18:15
SPEAKER_02: your life,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: so to speak.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm super excited about this.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: To kind of backtrack a little bit,
18:21
SPEAKER_00: and you'll get,
18:22
SPEAKER_00: if you get the book and you read it,
18:23
SPEAKER_00: you'll know.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: I sure,
18:25
SPEAKER_00: it's not like a biography by any means,
18:27
SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
18:27
SPEAKER_00: I involve a lot of personal life and stories and things in it.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And one of the reasons that I really,
18:32
it's been so impactful for me is because I was always somebody
18:34
on the more
18:35
SPEAKER_00: melancholy side of the spectrum.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Naturally speaking, I'm a very, glass is half empty at best.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: Like that's how I come to the world, just with my natural dispositions.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: And so it's funny,
18:47
SPEAKER_00: I mentioned this in the book,
18:48
SPEAKER_00: that when I was first saved,
18:50
SPEAKER_00: I was at a Bible college,
18:51
SPEAKER_00: small Bible college,
18:52
SPEAKER_00: and I think there was at least two or three different people,
18:55
SPEAKER_00: I think,
18:56
SPEAKER_00: at least two for sure,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: that on separate occasions told me,
18:59
SPEAKER_00: they're like,
18:59
SPEAKER_00: you remind me of Eeyore.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you know, that's not really, it's not a compliment.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how do you take that?
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's like...
19:08
SPEAKER_00: But that's who I was.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: You know,
19:09
SPEAKER_00: that's like,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: I was a new believer and I was still coming into the new life in Christ.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, but naturally speaking, I was very much Eeyore.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I still don't know which character from Pooh Bear I am at present.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I've asked my wife,
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
19:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't really know if there's an ideal character because like,
19:27
probably best case scenario you're owl and owl's kind of a
19:29
dunce you know and it's
19:31
like a rabbit's a jerk and tigger's careless and then you know
19:35
piglet's anxious and
19:36
poo's just he's kind of a dunce too you know it's like so it's
19:39
like i don't know
19:40
who you really want to be but you don't want to be or right
19:42
it's like that's what
19:43
everybody probably agrees like that's the one label you don't
19:45
want to have and so
19:47
SPEAKER_00: kind of because that's my natural bent i always i always felt a lot of
19:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
19:55
I could always relate to Ecclesiastes because I open it up and
19:58
this guy's like
19:59
SPEAKER_00: vanity of vanities.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Basically, I love there's one scholar.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember who it was.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: He summarized the message of Ecclesiastes as life sucks and then you die.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: That was who I was.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, life sucks and then you die.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, that's, yep.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: I get it.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's where I'm at.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And so you open this book and it's like, yeah, everything's vanity.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: What gain do you get from all this?
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, this is a guy who gets it.
20:22
And then,
20:22
interestingly enough,
20:23
my church family,
20:24
we do a Bible reading plan every year.
20:26
And we were reading through the Old Testament last year,
20:29
I believe,
20:29
or no,
20:29
let me see.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: It would have been two years ago in 2024.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: And we hit the book of Ecclesiastes.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, I kind of got a different...
20:38
SPEAKER_00: picture of Ecclesiastes for the first time.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: And it was funny because I'm somebody that underlines my Bible,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: and I know that some people think that's super taboo,
20:45
SPEAKER_00: and it's like,
20:46
SPEAKER_00: I get it,
20:47
SPEAKER_00: but I'm that guy.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't highlight and everything, but I at least underline.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: I make little notes and things.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: And it was interesting.
20:53
I underlined all of the significant vanity passages in my years
20:56
of reading Ecclesiastes,
20:57
and
20:57
SPEAKER_00: But there's a number of times,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: you've preached on Ecclesiastes,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: you know this,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: he talks about joy.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And there was like,
21:02
SPEAKER_00: I started like reading through it and I'm like,
21:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:05
SPEAKER_00: this was a whole passage on joy.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: I never underlined that.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:09
So I think that my kind of preconceived notion that the teacher
21:13
is the Eeyore of
21:14
the Bible that I relate to so dominated my interpretation that
21:19
I actually missed
21:19
SPEAKER_00: the good news in Ecclesiastes every time.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: And so we were reading through it,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: and then I was like,
21:24
SPEAKER_00: huh,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: maybe I've misunderstood this book for my entire life.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: And so I started reading it more and more.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: I tried studying it more.
21:31
And then I determined I was going to actually preach a series
21:35
of Sunday sermons
21:36
SPEAKER_00: through Ecclesiastes.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Like you, I go through books of the Bible.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: That's my goal.
21:40
I never sat under expository preaching,
21:43
so I don't know what it's like to be in the pew.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: But when I went to seminary at Lancaster Bible College,
21:48
SPEAKER_00: they were real big proponents of expository preaching.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: And the more I kind of saw
21:52
SPEAKER_00: the comparison between that and like just grabbing verses here and there,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: this is what I want to do in my ministry.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: It might not be as flashy.
21:59
It might not be three steps to,
22:00
you know,
22:00
your blessed life or whatever,
22:02
but,
22:02
um,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: I think it's much better for feeding the souls of your people.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: And it forces you to preach passages you would never preach otherwise.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: You're preaching through a book of the Bible,
22:14
SPEAKER_00: and then you hit some passages,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: you're like,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: yikes.
22:15
The one that I came to a long time ago is the one that I never
22:18
thought I'd get to,
22:19
SPEAKER_02: was the one where it talks about the prophet of God.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember if it's Elisha or Elijah.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: I think it's Elisha where he like six, the bears and all that's Elisha.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: It's like, what do you do with that?
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: I remember having to preach through that.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: And that was a challenge.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: It's like you hit those passages.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: You're like, Oh man.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Like as a pastor,
22:42
And here's where I think there's kind of a bit of a disconnect
22:44
for a lot of people.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: As a pastor,
22:46
SPEAKER_00: if you're a good pastor,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: right,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: you would encourage your people to read the Bible during the week,
22:50
SPEAKER_00: right?
22:52
And here's the crazy thing is you have so many pastors that
22:54
don't want to preach
22:55
SPEAKER_00: through books of the Bible because you hit tough passages,
22:57
SPEAKER_00: right?
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, you're telling your people, go read through the Bible on their own.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: So basically,
23:01
SPEAKER_00: you are sending them out into,
23:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: like you have people that are used to,
23:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: standing water,
23:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:09
SPEAKER_00: where they can stand and they can,
23:10
they can breathe and you're sending them out into the deep end
23:12
on their own.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, and nobody sees the inconsistency in that, right?
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Like,
23:17
SPEAKER_00: well,
23:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to preach this because it's hard,
23:19
but you go read the Bible on your own and then they go read the
23:21
book of Judges on
23:22
SPEAKER_00: their own and they're like,
23:23
SPEAKER_00: hold up.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: That's in the Bible?
23:27
SPEAKER_00: What do I do with this?
23:27
SPEAKER_00: They raped this lady all night long.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: Did that guy sacrifice his daughter?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, literally, this is his plan.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I'll send my daughters out.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And this guy's like, well, no, I'll send out my concubine.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And she raped for an entire night.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And then afterwards, they cut her up and mail her around.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And you read that, and you're like...
23:41
SPEAKER_00: what do I do with this?
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
23:44
And as a pastor,
23:44
you tell your people,
23:45
hey,
23:45
it's good to go read the Bible.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: They hit that on their own.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: They're out in the deep water.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: If they don't have a context for that, it's going to trouble people.
23:51
I remember when I was real young to faith,
23:54
I was reading through the Bible for the first time.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I had no framework because I'd never sat under that kind of teaching.
23:59
And I'm in the Old Testament,
24:01
and I'm like,
24:01
there's some wonky stuff in here.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: They didn't teach me this passage in Sunday school.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
24:06
SPEAKER_00: And you don't know what to do with it.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: You don't know that there's a lot of scripture that's not
24:12
SPEAKER_00: The language that I think I was taught in seminary,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: I picked it up somewhere along the line,
24:15
SPEAKER_00: is a lot of scripture is descriptive,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: not prescriptive.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's not saying do this, it's saying this happened.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times when it's saying this happened,
24:26
what it's actually doing in the prescriptive category is saying
24:29
don't do this.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: You look at Judges,
24:31
SPEAKER_00: and the whole book is like,
24:33
SPEAKER_00: this is what happens when everyone does what is right in their own eyes.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: That's the teaching of Judges.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, so we need...
24:40
SPEAKER_00: We need God.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: We need his law.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Because if everyone's just left to their own devices,
24:43
SPEAKER_00: which is the world we live in today,
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Judges is actually very timely.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very.
24:46
Because everyone's got their own truth and all the kind of
24:49
postmodern conception.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: it's everyone's doing what's right in their own eyes.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: You get the book of Judges.
24:54
It's like,
24:54
this is the fruit of everyone doing what is right in their own
24:57
eyes.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: But it's like,
24:58
if you don't understand that and you're just out there in the
25:00
deep on your own,
25:01
SPEAKER_00: you read those things and it's like,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: why is this in the Bible?
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is troubling.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: And so,
25:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:07
SPEAKER_00: you go and as a pastor,
25:08
then you preach through harder passages because then you can
25:12
help walk your people
25:13
SPEAKER_00: through the deep waters because you've had time to study.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: You've had time to even engage with commentary.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not, I don't have all the answers on my own.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I hit a passage and I'm like, this is,
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Yikes.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what to do with this.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: And I pray about it and I study it.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, you interact with some commentaries.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: You're like, okay, there's actually really, this is really good.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: I would have never preached on it in a million years.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: But now that I'm stuck with it,
25:32
SPEAKER_00: because it's the next passage that I'm going through,
25:34
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
25:34
SPEAKER_00: this is actually really edifying.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is good, solid stuff.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Or it's one of those things,
25:38
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
25:39
SPEAKER_00: it's a little bit more intense,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: but you can help walk people through it and see why that's in the Bible,
25:43
SPEAKER_00: the purpose that,
25:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:44
SPEAKER_00: it has.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And I would say all of us believe what Paul says in 2 Timothy,
25:49
SPEAKER_00: that all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
25:52
And the test of whether or not you actually believe that is if
25:54
you're willing to
25:55
SPEAKER_00: preach your books.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's true.
25:57
Because it's like,
25:57
you know,
25:58
I come to a text and I'm like,
25:59
well,
26:00
this is God-breathed.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: This is profitable.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how it's profitable yet.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: but we're going to get there.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: And so you kind of go through this.
26:07
And so all that to say,
26:08
I went through Ecclesiastes with my church at the beginning.
26:12
Actually,
26:12
this time last year,
26:13
I preached my first sermon on January 26th of 2025.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's like literally this week,
26:19
I was actually supposed to get the proof copies on the day that
26:21
I preached my first
26:22
SPEAKER_00: sermon.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: I was like, that'd be kind of cool, like a little thing.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: But we went through Ecclesiastes.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: And as I said, from that one read-through I did back in 2024,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: then plus the sermon series and stuff.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: I was like, this is actually, I've totally missed it.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: I've totally missed it.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much more to Ecclesiastes than meets the eye.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I think that if you only catch the vanity of vanities,
26:42
you've only caught half the teacher's message and you actually
26:45
are worse off than
26:45
SPEAKER_00: where you began.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:47
And so going through it that way with my church family,
26:51
I had a lot of good feedback on it.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: One of the young guys in my church was like,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:55
SPEAKER_00: I think Ecclesiastes might be my favorite book of the Bible now.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, winner.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's awesome.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: And the more I dwelt on it, I was like, you know, I really think...
27:04
SPEAKER_00: How this is shaping my life,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: again,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: as a natural Eeyore sort of person,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: it's really helped me in how I look at life.
27:13
And basically just coming down to accepting the things in life
27:18
that suck and living
27:20
SPEAKER_00: with it anyways.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: With a sense of hope and a sense of meaning that is found in God.
27:25
And that was very helpful to me just forcing you to be like,
27:28
yeah,
27:28
some things are just crooked.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: That's life under the sun.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: That's the world that we live in,
27:32
SPEAKER_00: a fallen creation that is longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Like it's messed up down here.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing you could do about it.
27:40
So you can choose to kind of wallow in complaining and all the
27:44
things you would
27:45
SPEAKER_00: change if you could,
27:45
SPEAKER_00: but you can't,
27:47
SPEAKER_00: or you can change your perspective and live a different life.
27:49
And basically confronting me with that hard truth,
27:53
it's kind of one real concise way to put it.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: That's how Ecclesiastes began to change my life.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: And
27:58
SPEAKER_00: is the more I wrestled with it,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: I've had a dream to write a book for,
28:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how long,
28:02
SPEAKER_00: a long time,
28:02
SPEAKER_00: probably a decade.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I think I could turn this material into a book.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And I know it's helped me, so I know it can help other people.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's awesome.
28:11
Ecclesiastes,
28:12
just to echo a lot of what you said,
28:14
is I think one of the most formative books.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: It's also, as you said, it's one of the most misunderstood.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: When I was preaching through it, there was a couple of commentaries that
28:24
SPEAKER_02: really slanted towards the negative view.
28:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there's some that still do.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: They still do.
28:28
They see it only through this negative lens of whoever you
28:32
think the preacher is,
28:33
SPEAKER_02: Solomon,
28:33
SPEAKER_02: whoever.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: I think it's Solomon.
28:35
But whoever you think that person was is just kind of going
28:39
through all of these
28:41
SPEAKER_02: very morose views of life here on Earth.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: I think what's so helpful,
28:47
SPEAKER_02: and you kind of hinted at this,
28:48
SPEAKER_02: but I think to put it on the nose,
28:51
SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
28:52
SPEAKER_02: is
28:53
Ecclesiastes is one of those books where you have to read the
28:56
ending before you
28:56
SPEAKER_02: read the beginning.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Like,
28:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:58
SPEAKER_02: most people,
28:59
SPEAKER_02: if you pick up a novel and they read the ending,
29:02
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
29:02
SPEAKER_02: how dare you do that?
29:03
SPEAKER_02: How dare you read the ending first?
29:05
But I think actually Ecclesiastes has the best framework if you
29:09
realize the
29:10
SPEAKER_02: conclusion he's coming to,
29:11
which is this whole thing is about fearing God and keeping his
29:15
commandments or to
29:16
SPEAKER_02: use it in like,
29:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:18
SPEAKER_02: the hymn parlance, this is all about trusting and obeying.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: That's how we,
29:23
SPEAKER_02: when we walk with the Lord and we do his goodwill,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: as the song says,
29:27
SPEAKER_02: it's trust and obey,
29:29
SPEAKER_02: fear God,
29:29
SPEAKER_02: keep his commandments.
29:30
That's the lens by which you can understand everything else
29:33
because all of the
29:34
SPEAKER_02: other things he tries,
29:36
SPEAKER_02: all of the other attempts he makes to find something that is not Hebel,
29:42
SPEAKER_02: that is not like this just wisp of a cloud on the wind,
29:47
SPEAKER_02: Everything else just falls short.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: Everything else is just an utter failure.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of the point.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: It's actually, I think, a very, as you said the word, it's hopeful.
29:58
It doesn't seem hopeful at first because he's describing all of
30:01
these things that
30:01
SPEAKER_00: are just devastating.
30:03
Yeah,
30:03
and the problem is,
30:04
like you were saying,
30:05
is usually people only catch half of it.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
30:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:08
SPEAKER_00: so the,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:10
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the most helpful things for me is when you understand,
30:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: whether,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: again,
30:15
SPEAKER_00: authorship aside,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: he refers to himself throughout as the teacher,
30:18
SPEAKER_00: the preacher,
30:18
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
30:18
SPEAKER_00: like,
30:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:19
SPEAKER_00: that's who he is.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: It's probably Solomon.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's the only one that was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, he's the only one that fits that category.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: But that aside, when you see that he's introducing himself in this way,
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Even all the commentaries I had just called him Koholet,
30:35
SPEAKER_00: which is the Hebrew word behind teacher,
30:38
SPEAKER_00: preacher,
30:38
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: Because they're like, we don't even know, is he a teacher?
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Is he a preacher?
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Is he a philosopher?
30:42
SPEAKER_00: He's an assembly addresser of some sort.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's like when you realize that this isn't his diary.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was always like I viewed it as a diary.
30:52
You know,
30:53
you're opening up this guy's diary,
30:54
this guy's journal entry for the day.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, I hate my life and it's not worth living.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, that's kind of rough.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: But then when you see, no, he's not giving you his diary.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: He's a teacher.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: He's a philosopher.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: He's somebody addressing assembly.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: He's got pupils that are hearing this.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, maybe this isn't his diary.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's a reason that he's trying to drag you down into despair.
31:16
And there's one commentator talks about shocking them awake
31:19
with the reality of God.
31:21
It's like you need to catch the bankruptcy of life apart from
31:25
God in order to see the hope.
31:27
Like you need to be in that storm before you can see the beauty
31:31
of the sun peeking
31:32
SPEAKER_00: through the clouds.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't hit the bottom,
31:35
SPEAKER_00: you might think afterwards like,
31:37
SPEAKER_00: well,
31:38
there's still something else that I could reach for that might
31:41
fulfill me outside
31:42
SPEAKER_00: of God.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:44
But when he takes you down and down and you're like,
31:45
I don't think we go any lower.
31:46
And then he's just like,
31:48
you know,
31:48
he brings you as far down as he possibly can.
31:50
And you're finally like,
31:51
okay,
31:51
life apart from God under the sun in the terms that he uses.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: is absolutely empty.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: It's bankrupt of any meaning.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: And if,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: as the atheist says,
32:00
we are just basically clumps of cells floating on a rock
32:03
through space by mere
32:04
SPEAKER_00: happenstance,
32:05
SPEAKER_00: there is no meaning to life.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: There's no ultimate part.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Literally, there's nothing.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, I can impact somebody else's life.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, guess what?
32:11
SPEAKER_00: You're going to die.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: They're going to die.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: You're going to be forgotten.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: None of it matters.
32:14
If there is nothing else but life under the sun,
32:16
you could say to that atheist or whoever,
32:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're exactly right.
32:19
But that's kind of the point is drawing this very stark
32:24
contrast and distinction
32:26
SPEAKER_02: between life just under the sun.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: And you could also like he does.
32:31
I don't think he mentions it in Ecclesiastes,
32:33
but it's kind of this subtle.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: understood thing that's not in the text,
32:37
SPEAKER_02: but you could kind of infer it,
32:39
SPEAKER_02: but life above the sun.
32:41
And like life above the sun is exactly what he's trying to
32:44
point people to as he's
32:46
SPEAKER_02: focusing on life under the sun,
32:48
SPEAKER_02: if that makes sense.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: That's actually chapter five of my book is titled Life Beyond the Sun.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there you go.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
32:53
SPEAKER_00: that's exactly like,
32:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:55
SPEAKER_00: you spend time down under the sun,
32:56
SPEAKER_00: you see the bankruptcy of life under the sun,
32:58
SPEAKER_00: how it doesn't have any meaning or purpose aside from God,
33:01
SPEAKER_00: but it's like the good news is
33:03
SPEAKER_00: there is life beyond the sun.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the trajectory of Ecclesiastes.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: You can catch that.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: That's what you need to see.
33:08
Like if you just see the under the sun part and then you're
33:12
going to come away sad
33:12
SPEAKER_00: and rightfully so.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: And if you're an atheist reading Ecclesiastes,
33:14
SPEAKER_00: you should come away sad because you're like,
33:16
SPEAKER_00: wow,
33:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:17
SPEAKER_00: this does all absolutely mean nothing.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Like if you don't see life beyond the sun,
33:21
SPEAKER_00: then yeah,
33:21
SPEAKER_00: there's nothing worth,
33:23
SPEAKER_00: there's no reason to live down here because at the end of the day,
33:25
SPEAKER_00: it's all going to be dead and forgotten anyways.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: And those passages that he sprinkles that the preacher says,
33:31
SPEAKER_02: sprinkles throughout in Ecclesiastes,
33:33
where he talks about like eating and drinking and being merry
33:35
because tomorrow we
33:36
SPEAKER_02: die.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: There's a sense in which there's some commentators,
33:39
SPEAKER_02: and I've read some,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: and I'll put some links to commentaries in the notes to the show,
33:43
SPEAKER_02: but they would interpret them very negatively.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Again,
33:47
SPEAKER_02: like he's just sort of this nihilistic philosopher,
33:50
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:51
SPEAKER_02: waxing eloquent about how nothing matters.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: But actually, I think it was really helpful.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: Again, this distinction, like,
33:58
like changing your perspective let alone changing your life it
34:02
helps to remember
34:03
like what he's what he's doing is like that i always love those
34:06
passages because i
34:08
think one of them comes after he talks about the idea that like
34:11
there's always
34:11
going to be corruption and leaders above you there's always i
34:14
think it's chapter 8
34:15
or chapter 11 but anyways one of those chapters he talks about
34:19
that and then he
34:22
SPEAKER_02: That encourages eating and drinking and being merry.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: But it's such a helpful perspective.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: There's things that are beyond our control.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: As citizens of whatever nation you are,
34:32
there's things that are beyond your ability to impact or
34:36
influence or have any
34:37
SPEAKER_02: involvement in.
34:38
So the best way that you can bring glory to God is actually
34:43
just having a dinner
34:44
SPEAKER_02: party,
34:45
SPEAKER_02: not fretting over the things you can't control,
34:48
SPEAKER_02: the things you can't influence,
34:49
SPEAKER_02: the things that are beyond your ken.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: But oftentimes that's where we are.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: We're like, we're so focused on all those things that are beyond us.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: And we forget, hey, maybe just invite your neighbors over for dinner.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's how you can glorify God right in this moment.
35:01
And that to me was always such an influential and impactful
35:08
perspective to have on
35:10
SPEAKER_02: those passages,
35:10
SPEAKER_02: but also like what our calling is here.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: There's a passage in 1 Peter chapter 4 where he talks about,
35:18
SPEAKER_02: he mentions the ideas of what the church is to do.
35:24
in light of the end times,
35:26
because he talks about the end times coming in 1 Peter 4.
35:29
But I think what is so fascinating to me is one of the distinct
35:33
things that he
35:33
SPEAKER_02: mentions there is hospitality.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: And it always makes me connect that with Ecclesiastes,
35:38
SPEAKER_02: this idea that there's things that are crumbling.
35:41
Maybe you have power structures that are full of corrupt
35:44
leaders and all that kind of stuff.
35:46
And he talks about things that make you think like he's talking
35:49
about our world
35:49
SPEAKER_02: right now,
35:50
SPEAKER_02: which is why Ecclesiastes is so timely.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: But then his answer is just have a dinner party with your friends.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: And that's how you can show the kingdom of God to others.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Choose to simply enjoy what you can control.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: It's helpful to me.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: And what you're hitting on actually is I think so helpful,
36:05
SPEAKER_00: especially in the modern day and age,
36:07
SPEAKER_00: because so many people...
36:08
feel this pressure to like change the world or that they need
36:13
to know everything
36:14
SPEAKER_00: there is to know about everything.
36:15
I was actually,
36:16
I help with the nursing home ministry down in Mount Carmel.
36:19
And yesterday I was talking to this older lady in there and
36:22
about the news and stuff.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: And she's like,
36:24
SPEAKER_00: They're all talking news, and I was like, I don't watch news at all.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I 0% watch the news.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: And some people would say that's irresponsible.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, what can I do about it?
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: I can get sad about it.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: I can get mad about it.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, we all know that it's probably not true.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: There are no unbiased people out there, and everyone brings their biases.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I'm not in Minnesota.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what's going on.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: And even the people that are there don't know what's going on.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to get my life all...
36:51
in a wreck because I'm watching about things that I have zero
36:55
control of.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: I can't make any difference there.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm a central Pennsylvania pastor.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, what am I going to do?
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to get upset about it.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And no matter whose side you take,
37:06
SPEAKER_00: people are going to be upset,
37:07
SPEAKER_00: and it's like,
37:07
SPEAKER_00: there's nothing you can do about it.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: So you can let all of the things you can't change ruin your life,
37:13
SPEAKER_00: or you could say,
37:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to control what I can control.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: We have a lot less power down here than we realize.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: And I think people,
37:21
SPEAKER_00: even sometimes as Christians,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: have this sense that we're supposed to be world changers.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: The apostles turned the world upside down.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: That's true in a sense, but you don't ever catch the passages.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: I think one's in 1 Thessalonians 4.
37:35
One of them's in 1 Thessalonians for sure,
37:36
where Paul talks about living a quiet life.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: And it's like your boring,
37:41
SPEAKER_00: everyday,
37:42
seemingly mundane life lived for the glory of God and the good
37:45
of others is
37:45
SPEAKER_00: actually a beautiful thing.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: And maybe God,
37:48
SPEAKER_00: yes,
37:48
I believe God calls people to go to the nations and calls
37:52
people into these highly,
37:54
SPEAKER_00: from a human perspective,
37:55
SPEAKER_00: highly influential,
37:56
SPEAKER_00: impactful things.
37:57
Sure,
37:57
I believe God does that,
37:58
but I don't believe everybody's called to that.
38:00
And I believe there's glory in the ordinary that so many people
38:03
overlook.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you're not supposed to just be a world shape.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, if you go to work, you do a good work.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, you work with your might, as Ecclesiastes says.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: You go home.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: You love your wife and kids.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's kingdom work.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:17
you're contributing to the eternal difference in the lives of
38:20
your children.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: That's a huge deal.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: You serve at your local church and you help in a way that impacts it.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: That's a huge deal.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: And like, but I want to be a world shift.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: It's like, but maybe we're not supposed to change the world.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to change our world here.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, yeah, there's glory in those ordinary things.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: You can find the extraordinary in them.
38:37
And I think that all of that kind of ties in with this idea of
38:40
you control what you
38:41
SPEAKER_00: can control.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: I can affect my family.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: I can affect my church, my friends.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: I have this circle of influence.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: It's not global.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to do what I can here.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to control what I can control.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: And again,
38:51
SPEAKER_00: one of those is being my perspective,
38:52
which I think is one of the things that you find in
38:54
Ecclesiastes in those joy
38:56
SPEAKER_00: passages.
38:57
It's like,
38:57
yeah,
38:57
there are crooked things,
38:59
and they're going to be crooked.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: You can't straighten them.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: God can straighten the crooked things, and he will one day.
39:04
And we can hope in that,
39:07
but in the present,
39:08
some things are just going to suck.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: What do you do about it?
39:12
SPEAKER_00: You just live anyways,
39:14
SPEAKER_00: and you just find things that you can find joy in,
39:16
SPEAKER_00: and you find people that you can impact and fellowship with and love on.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's like you control your small section of the world.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: as much as you can,
39:24
SPEAKER_00: your family,
39:25
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
39:25
SPEAKER_00: like you,
39:25
SPEAKER_00: you,
39:26
SPEAKER_00: you work in that and let God handle the cosmic stuff.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: It reminds me of that,
39:30
SPEAKER_02: that scene,
39:31
the scene from Lord of the Rings that I think is so impactful
39:34
and helpful.
39:35
You know,
39:35
when Frodo is complaining about like,
39:37
why did this happen in my time?
39:39
SPEAKER_02: Why did Bilbo find the ring?
39:40
SPEAKER_02: Why is the ring in my possession?
39:42
SPEAKER_02: Why is, why did all this sucky stuff happen in my time?
39:46
SPEAKER_02: And then Gandalf was like, that's not for us to decide.
39:49
All that we have to decide is what to do with the time that is
39:51
given to us.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that, that little scene is such a powerful window to,
39:56
SPEAKER_02: I think what the writer of Ecclesiastes is getting to.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: That's why Ecclesiastes 3,
40:03
SPEAKER_02: I think,
40:03
SPEAKER_02: is one of the most impactful chapters for me,
40:06
especially the beginning where he's talking about there's a
40:07
time for this and
40:08
SPEAKER_02: there's a time for that.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: There's going to be cycles.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: There's going to be seasons.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: If you're in a season of melancholy or you're in a season of stress...
40:19
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the most helpful things is like this too shall pass.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be like this forever.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: And deciding as Gandalf says in his sage advice,
40:29
deciding what to do in your time is the only thing that we are
40:32
responsible for.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: We're not responsible for changing the times or managing the times.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: Cause again, that's beyond us.
40:41
And I think that's such a fitting message because I,
40:44
when I preach through this,
40:46
um,
40:47
SPEAKER_02: When was that?
40:48
SPEAKER_02: It was maybe 2019 into 2020, I think.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: So things hadn't blown up in some of the ways that it still is now.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: But it was close.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: It was close.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: It was right on the verge.
41:03
Yeah,
41:03
for Lord of the Rings,
41:04
it's the deep breath before the punch,
41:06
right?
41:06
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: But regardless of where you insert...
41:11
this message,
41:12
it'll always have a resonance because we feel these things.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what's so helpful.
41:17
I think one of the most helpful books on Ecclesiastes was Zach
41:21
Eswine's book,
41:22
SPEAKER_02: which the name is escaping me right now,
41:24
SPEAKER_02: but he talks about this idea of living in
41:27
SPEAKER_02: in East of Eden.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: And like, that's what Ecclesiastes describes.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: It's like, this is, this is our world and we can't change that fact.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: So how are we going to live within this world, especially in light?
41:42
SPEAKER_02: I think another helpful thing,
41:44
SPEAKER_02: reading Ecclesiastes from the end to the beginning,
41:46
SPEAKER_02: as I said earlier,
41:47
SPEAKER_02: go to chapter 12,
41:48
SPEAKER_02: read the last couple of verses and then go to chapter one,
41:51
SPEAKER_02: but also remembering like,
41:52
SPEAKER_02: this is all
41:54
SPEAKER_02: a part of a revelation of who Jesus is.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: Like we can't divorce Ecclesiastes from Luke 24 where Jesus is like,
42:02
SPEAKER_02: all of this is meant to point to me.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's another helpful thing to remember.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: We can't read Ecclesiastes in a vacuum.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: Like this is just a description of how horrible life is.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: But actually it's meant to remind us that in the midst of this morass of,
42:17
SPEAKER_02: of evil and corruption and injustice that he describes,
42:21
SPEAKER_02: that's the exact world that
42:24
SPEAKER_02: God in Christ came to dwell.
42:27
SPEAKER_02: That's where he comes to, which is why I think Ecclesiastes is resonant.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: But anyways, I find it so impactful.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's good.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it's especially helpful to me to consider...
42:38
SPEAKER_00: One of the most fascinating things to me is the progress of Revelation.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So you find this guy that says...
42:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to remember.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: I think it's in chapter three,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: I think,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: where he says,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: who knows if the spirit of the man goes down to the earth,
42:53
SPEAKER_00: spirit of the beast goes upwards,
42:54
SPEAKER_00: basically.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: And to see that this guy is like,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: well,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: we're going to fear God and we're going to...
43:01
The kind of the summary phrase that I came up with for
43:04
Ecclesiastes is fear God and
43:05
SPEAKER_00: enjoy the ride.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: That's the final chapter of the book, fear God and enjoy the ride.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
43:10
SPEAKER_00: if he's able to do that,
43:11
SPEAKER_00: I love that Jesus's line of argumentation where it's how much more,
43:14
SPEAKER_00: right?
43:15
You hear that was a popular thing with a lot of the rabbis,
43:17
how much more?
43:17
SPEAKER_00: If this is true, then how much more?
43:19
And if you're able to look at Ecclesiastes and this guy that
43:23
knew of Sheol,
43:24
but didn't know...
43:25
SPEAKER_00: of resurrection is able to say,
43:28
SPEAKER_00: listen,
43:28
SPEAKER_00: you should walk in the fear of God,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: keep his commandments,
43:31
and seek to just enjoy the seemingly mundane things of life as
43:34
God's gift to you.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: If he's able to find joy in those things,
43:37
SPEAKER_00: and then we turn the page of the New Testament,
43:39
SPEAKER_00: and we know that at the end of the day,
43:41
SPEAKER_00: God is going to right every wrong.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: God is a just God.
43:43
He's going to handle all of those things that we wish we could
43:46
handle,
43:46
but we can't.
43:47
And that this creation that's longing out for the revealing of
43:49
the sons of God for
43:50
SPEAKER_00: this day where everything will be created anew
43:54
SPEAKER_00: Like we have that picture now as New Testament believers.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: And if he was able to turn,
43:58
SPEAKER_00: take his eyes off of the earthly existence and find hope beyond the sun,
44:02
SPEAKER_00: how much more is the New Testament believer who knows the full story,
44:05
SPEAKER_00: who knows Jesus by name,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: knows the gift of salvation,
44:08
SPEAKER_00: knows that one day we'll be with him for all eternity,
44:10
SPEAKER_00: not in Sheol,
44:11
SPEAKER_00: but in a glorious new creation.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: How much more should we be able to enjoy the ride along the way,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: knowing that like that's what's to come?
44:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Today might be mundane, but like, you know, today's not forever.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: Like this sense that is difficult is not forever.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm currently preaching through the book of Malachi.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: And great irony is in chapter four,
44:30
he talks about the son of righteousness arising with healing in
44:32
his wings,
44:33
SPEAKER_00: right?
44:33
SPEAKER_00: This idea that night is not forever.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: The next verse he talks about the calves going,
44:38
SPEAKER_00: you'll go forth like leaping,
44:39
SPEAKER_00: like calves from the stall.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: And I never understood what that meant.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: And I'm doing some study on it.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: And they say that the calves were let out in the springtime.
44:46
So the calves leaping from the stall means winter's over is
44:49
what that means.
44:50
And so that passage is kind of this beautiful reminder to these
44:53
people in the midst
44:54
SPEAKER_00: of,
44:54
SPEAKER_00: again,
44:55
SPEAKER_00: kind of a similar thing with Ecclesiastes,
44:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:57
struggling with the prosperity of the wicked and God's seeming
45:00
injustice and like,
45:01
SPEAKER_00: God,
45:01
SPEAKER_00: what are you doing?
45:01
SPEAKER_00: This world's messed up.
45:03
Malachi says,
45:04
listen,
45:04
God's going to take care of the wicked in the world.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
45:07
SPEAKER_00: there's a future day coming when night will be no more,
45:11
SPEAKER_00: when winter will be no more.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: And the beauty of that is I was supposed to preach that last Sunday.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: We canceled service on Sunday because of this.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not sure if you guys did.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did too.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: I figured probably most people did.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know, I am not preaching that message live stream.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm going to do something else.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm saving this one.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: So two weeks ago,
45:27
SPEAKER_00: crazy snowstorm,
45:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:29
SPEAKER_00: three quarters of our attendance,
45:30
they couldn't come probably just because you can't get out of
45:32
your driveway.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Last week we had to cancel.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: And then...
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Lord willing, this Sunday, winter's not eternal.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful, providential thing.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: But you look to the New Testament now,
45:44
SPEAKER_00: we have that hope that this vain life...
45:47
SPEAKER_00: And it's funny that I found,
45:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember who pointed it out,
45:52
SPEAKER_00: but when Paul talks about in Romans 8,
45:55
SPEAKER_00: the creation being subjected to futility...
45:58
SPEAKER_00: That word futility is actually in the Greek.
46:01
It's the same word that the Septuagint uses to translate Hevel
46:04
from Ecclesiastes.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:06
Isn't that kind of like,
46:07
that's kind of a fun little,
46:08
like the creation was subjected to Hevel.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: But that's not the end of the story.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: You know,
46:14
SPEAKER_00: and like we have this hope that,
46:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:16
SPEAKER_00: night is not eternal,
46:18
SPEAKER_00: that winter is not eternal.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:20
that the suffering and hardship and all the wreckage of a
46:23
fallen world,
46:24
it's not eternal.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: And that which is eternal, it's coming, it's beautiful.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's good.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that has really impacted me,
46:32
SPEAKER_02: and well,
46:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to bring it back to Ecclesiastes,
46:35
SPEAKER_02: but I've been going through,
46:36
SPEAKER_02: I went through Habakkuk,
46:38
SPEAKER_02: and I preached through that,
46:39
SPEAKER_02: and I'm preaching through Exodus.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is just so awesome, just because it's like,
46:45
SPEAKER_02: Of course, it's the Bible.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be resonant.
46:47
SPEAKER_02: But also,
46:49
SPEAKER_02: the way the Bible,
46:49
SPEAKER_02: I think,
46:50
SPEAKER_02: describes the human experience,
46:52
SPEAKER_02: I think,
46:52
SPEAKER_02: is so profound,
46:53
SPEAKER_02: obviously,
46:54
SPEAKER_02: because it's God's words.
46:55
But what I always find,
46:57
what I'm learning,
46:59
at least in this current season...
47:01
SPEAKER_02: is what Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians 5,
47:03
SPEAKER_02: where he talks about living by faith and not by sight.
47:07
I think it's...
47:08
Number one,
47:09
it's way harder than I think that we can ever imagine.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, we throw that phrase around so often.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, we walk by faith and not by sight.
47:16
SPEAKER_02: But we don't actually realize...
47:19
SPEAKER_02: The difficulty of that,
47:22
SPEAKER_02: the challenge that that presents,
47:25
SPEAKER_02: if that's your operative framework,
47:29
SPEAKER_02: we're going to live by faith and not by sight.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
47:32
SPEAKER_02: There's going to be some things that put that to the test.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: And so,
47:35
SPEAKER_02: like,
47:35
I think a really good example is what I'm getting ready to
47:37
preach on out of Exodus,
47:39
SPEAKER_02: which is when they're about to cross the Red Sea.
47:41
And I always find that so fascinating in Exodus because God led
47:46
them to this point.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, oh, shoot, we can't go this way.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're toast.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: Because there's water,
47:53
SPEAKER_02: there's terrain all around us that we can't go to the side,
47:56
SPEAKER_02: and now there's bloodthirsty Egyptians racing after us.
48:00
SPEAKER_02: If you just go by sight,
48:02
it would be similar to what you find described in the book of
48:06
Ecclesiastes.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:07
SPEAKER_02: This sucks.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: Nothing matters.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: Moses, why did you bring us out there?
48:10
SPEAKER_02: Was there not enough graveyards available in Egypt?
48:14
SPEAKER_02: Why did you bring us out here?
48:16
SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of the point.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: If we just go by what we see...
48:21
it's going to sound like,
48:22
and I think that's why Ecclesiastes to me is so relevant.
48:25
It's kind of like a commentary on what Paul says,
48:29
like we live by faith and not by sight.
48:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's a kind of a commentary on the latter part of that.
48:34
SPEAKER_02: Living by sight looks like this.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: Living by sight looks like injustice, corruption, evil.
48:41
SPEAKER_02: There's unrighteousness all around.
48:43
The people who are trying their hardest are going to fail and
48:47
the people who don't try are
48:48
SPEAKER_02: They're going to succeed.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: Everything seems unfair and by its opposite.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: Living by sight is like that.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: But living by faith is that, like your chapter, is living beyond the sun.
49:00
SPEAKER_02: Living by realizing that there is not just someone,
49:04
SPEAKER_02: but there is a maker and a creator who is also your redeemer...
49:10
who is involved and he cares and he knows all of those things
49:14
that you are dealing with.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: I think that's what's so resonant from Exodus to Ecclesiastes,
49:20
SPEAKER_02: all the way to Paul in the New Testament to right now in 2026,
49:24
we are struggling with living like that because we can be
49:26
exactly like the
49:27
SPEAKER_02: Israelites,
49:28
SPEAKER_02: exactly like...
49:29
Anyone throughout history,
49:30
living by sight is always going to lead to melancholy.
49:33
SPEAKER_02: Living by faith doesn't erase the melancholy,
49:37
SPEAKER_02: but it just allows you to have a hope that is not shaken,
49:41
SPEAKER_02: which I think that's the point of the Bible.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: One of the points.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the main points of the Bible.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, helping you kind of in the, I talk about in the in-between.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: We live between promise and fulfillment.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's this time where it's kind of hard.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: I love what you said about Exodus too.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, this is God's fault.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: His cloud brought us to this place.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: It's impossible.
50:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
50:06
are you going to trust him that he's not only going to bring
50:07
you to the sea,
50:09
SPEAKER_00: but through it.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really neat.
50:13
I think what's awesome is finding all these connections within
50:15
scripture that
50:17
SPEAKER_02: Let us realize that humanity hasn't changed.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: Like we're the same.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Like even though this was,
50:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
50:22
SPEAKER_02: 4,000 odd years ago or whatever,
50:25
SPEAKER_02: we're pretty much exactly the same.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Humanity hasn't changed that much.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Deal with the same.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you read some of the stories.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: You're like, yeah, that's – yeah, that sounds familiar.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean there's nothing new under the sun.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: No, exactly.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: It's that same idea of like I'm going to –
50:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to fill this God sized hole with all these earthly pleasures.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, that doesn't work.
50:42
And you still have the same sin nature that is throughout the
50:44
Bible and people that
50:45
SPEAKER_00: are,
50:46
SPEAKER_00: no matter how outwardly righteous they might've seemed,
50:49
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
50:49
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
50:49
SPEAKER_00: they can totally make a mess of their lives.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: You know,
50:51
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
50:51
it's the same story of people that are in need of redemption
50:55
again and again and
50:56
SPEAKER_00: again and again,
50:56
SPEAKER_00: because like,
50:57
SPEAKER_00: it's just,
50:58
SPEAKER_00: that's the world we live in.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: I remember reading a story and this is just what makes,
51:04
SPEAKER_02: I think Ecclesiastes so resonant and so relevant.
51:08
And you find it all throughout like history and culture and all
51:12
these things.
51:12
There's that story that and I found the original article just
51:16
to make sure it was true.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: But like Jim Carrey,
51:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
51:19
he gave this interview one time and he talked about the fact
51:21
that he wishes that
51:22
SPEAKER_02: everyone could have fame and success.
51:25
and popularity basically he wishes that they could have
51:28
everything that they ever
51:29
dreamed of so that they realize that that's not what actually
51:33
fulfills them that
51:34
actually is not what like brings them satisfaction um and it's
51:39
like man he's he's
51:40
right there he's he's that guy that so many people want to be
51:44
yeah exactly famous
51:45
your name's out there you're probably wealthy off the yeah and
51:48
he's struggling with
51:49
SPEAKER_02: the very things that the preacher is struggling with yeah and
51:52
SPEAKER_02: He just doesn't have that other beyond the sun message of hope.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I got everything that I wanted and it still hasn't filled me.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like the classic God-sized hole.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
52:02
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
52:02
SPEAKER_00: you keep trying to dump stuff in there and it's like,
52:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm not in that place where I can say.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: that I've tried everything and found out that it's,
52:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:10
SPEAKER_00: but like,
52:10
SPEAKER_00: I'll take somebody else's word for it,
52:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:13
SPEAKER_00: at the end of the day,
52:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: and that's,
52:15
SPEAKER_00: that's one of the things with the example of the teacher is like,
52:17
SPEAKER_00: you look at him recounting all he had.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
52:20
SPEAKER_00: you have the opportunity to either take his word for it or try to,
52:24
SPEAKER_00: to,
52:25
SPEAKER_00: to prove him wrong.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: You know,
52:26
SPEAKER_00: like you could try to be like,
52:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:28
SPEAKER_00: your example,
52:28
SPEAKER_00: Jim Carrey,
52:29
SPEAKER_00: anybody famous,
52:30
you can work your tail off and you can make all the money and
52:32
you can have all the
52:33
SPEAKER_00: things that,
52:34
And you can find out the hard way that it's empty or you could
52:36
take someone else's
52:36
SPEAKER_00: word for it who did get there.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: And realizes like, no, this isn't what's supposed to fill you.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: You were made for something else.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:44
And I think one of the other things that makes Ecclesiastes so
52:49
frustrating in some
52:50
SPEAKER_02: ways is that it has a lot of
52:52
SPEAKER_02: unanswered questions and a lot of unresolved tension.
52:55
SPEAKER_02: And I just think we're not geared towards being okay with that.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
53:01
I have a statement somewhere in the book that we'll all die
53:04
with unanswered questions.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's just
53:07
SPEAKER_00: like that's part of life under the sun.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
53:09
SPEAKER_00: there are crooked things that will remain crooked and like,
53:12
SPEAKER_00: there's nothing you can do about it.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: you wish you could,
53:15
SPEAKER_00: you'd like to have the answers,
53:16
SPEAKER_00: but God doesn't owe us all the answers.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: And even sometimes people go to the Bible and they're like,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: they expect to have an answer for everything.
53:21
It's like the Bible doesn't need to give us an answer for every
53:24
single thing on
53:25
SPEAKER_00: every issue in life.
53:27
SPEAKER_00: It just needs to give us enough to know what we need to know.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like,
53:31
there are going to be questions that people and people ask me
53:33
all the time and it's
53:34
always eschatology stuff like what happens in this and i'm like
53:36
i don't know i
53:38
don't know yeah bible doesn't say like if that was important i
53:42
think god would have
53:43
told like i again you gotta be careful because it's not that
53:45
it's not important but
53:46
like there are so many things that god could have told us and
53:49
didn't so i guess we
53:50
didn't need to know that and at the end of the day like we were
53:53
talking earlier
53:53
about faith it's like if god answered every one of our
53:55
questions where would faith
53:56
SPEAKER_00: come in
53:57
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
53:57
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
53:58
SPEAKER_02: Then we wouldn't have... You wouldn't need faith.
54:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:00
SPEAKER_02: Paul talks about that quite often.
54:02
He talks about there would be no reason for faith if we had
54:05
everything by sight.
54:07
And so that's why he makes this case,
54:10
not just in 2 Corinthians,
54:11
but in several letters.
54:13
SPEAKER_02: That's why not everything is revealed to us.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: You just got to learn to walk by faith.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I,
54:18
SPEAKER_00: in the chapter on life beyond the sun,
54:20
SPEAKER_00: talking about a,
54:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:22
SPEAKER_00: a world,
54:22
SPEAKER_00: a biblical worldview with God as creator versus an atheistic worldview.
54:25
It's like,
54:26
you know,
54:26
at the end of the day,
54:26
we have to take God's word for it.
54:28
You know,
54:28
like if he said he made everything,
54:30
it's like,
54:30
I don't know how he made everything.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm not the creator, but he said he did.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: And so I have the opportunity to walk in faith and trust him.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: How do you speak things into existence?
54:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: But when you're God,
54:40
I think that you're on an entirely different category level
54:44
that I don't need to
54:46
SPEAKER_00: know.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
54:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, he has that phrase.
54:49
What chapter is it in Ecclesiastes where he's like,
54:52
God is in heaven and we are on earth?
54:53
SPEAKER_02: It sounds so rudimentary, this distinction that he makes.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's the...
54:59
SPEAKER_02: But that's kind of the whole point.
55:00
SPEAKER_02: And he's like, God is God and we are not God.
55:02
SPEAKER_02: So sit down and shut up.
55:06
Therefore,
55:06
let your words be few,
55:07
I think is what he follows that up with.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, God's in heaven.
55:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like the book of Job.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: You get to that point where Job's like, God, I've got issue with you.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: And God's like, where were you, Job?
55:17
SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding me?
55:19
SPEAKER_00: You look at all this stuff.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: There's a band I've listened to recently called Ghost Ship.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: It's actually the guy that did the music for Mars Hill.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: And he's, I don't even know what genre you would call it.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: It's like folky, rocky, something.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: It's wonderful though.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: And he's got a song called, I think it was Where Were You?
55:38
SPEAKER_00: It's basically that whole idea from Job.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: And the whole song is that.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's just such a, it's a helpful thing to me.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't answer the questions,
55:47
SPEAKER_00: but it does put it in perspective that it's like,
55:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking to my maker.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, where were you when I did this and I did this?
55:54
SPEAKER_00: And you look at that and you're like, okay, I guess I'm really small.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: He's God, I am not, and he doesn't owe me an explanation for everything.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: And maybe I'll just trust him.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's told me enough about himself,
56:08
SPEAKER_00: revealed enough of himself to me,
56:10
SPEAKER_00: not only in the Bible,
56:11
SPEAKER_00: not only in creation,
56:12
SPEAKER_00: but even in his providence in my own life.
56:14
That it's like,
56:15
I'll just choose to trust him and let the chips fall where they
56:18
may.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's such a helpful perspective as Christians, as pastors.
56:26
SPEAKER_02: And I think the things that we're talking about,
56:28
SPEAKER_02: I think is really fascinating too,
56:29
SPEAKER_02: because these are just...
56:31
SPEAKER_02: kind of blunt truths.
56:33
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's part of what Ecclesiastes is.
56:36
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a blunt book.
56:37
SPEAKER_02: And if you're not okay with receiving some of that blunt truth,
56:41
SPEAKER_02: then you're probably not going to be okay reading Ecclesiastes.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
56:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's,
56:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
56:46
SPEAKER_00: I've always found,
56:48
SPEAKER_00: for me,
56:48
SPEAKER_00: that's the kind of things that I like to listen to,
56:51
SPEAKER_00: like,
56:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:51
SPEAKER_00: the shows or the radio or the TV,
56:53
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: I like the,
56:55
SPEAKER_00: I like the hard truth stuff where people,
56:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:58
SPEAKER_00: they go and they just like hit people with hard truth and it's like,
57:01
SPEAKER_00: oh man,
57:01
SPEAKER_00: that one stings.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, but sometimes that's what you, that's what you need.
57:06
You know,
57:06
some people have this idea of,
57:08
I'm trying to think of how to word this.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: they talk about tough love.
57:11
And it's like,
57:12
but,
57:13
you know,
57:14
it's not loving to sugarcoat everything all the time.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes the most loving thing you can do is give people the good,
57:21
SPEAKER_00: hard,
57:21
SPEAKER_00: honest truth that totally sucks.
57:23
SPEAKER_00: But it's like, you know, that's what people need sometimes.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what Ecclesiastes does, is it's very blunt.
57:29
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't answer every question.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: And it's nice because it actually,
57:34
SPEAKER_00: one of the things I love about that,
57:35
SPEAKER_00: and even some of the lamenting psalms and different things,
57:38
is it gives words to some of the things that we might want to
57:42
say but feel scared
57:43
SPEAKER_02: to say.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: You look at that, and it's like, basically, God, where are you?
57:47
SPEAKER_00: Or what's going on?
57:48
Again,
57:49
we're going through Malachi,
57:51
and the people say it's vain to serve God.
57:52
SPEAKER_00: And you're like...
57:54
SPEAKER_00: What awful, horrible people to say something like that.
57:58
And then you look in your heart and you're like,
57:59
and I've thought the same thing.
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've been right there.
58:01
SPEAKER_00: I've been right there where it's like,
58:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:04
SPEAKER_00: I do all this for God and what's God do in return for me?
58:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, like, do I get anything out of this?
58:08
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like,
58:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:09
SPEAKER_00: you see those things and it's like,
58:11
it gives voice to what you've said at one point or another or
58:15
what's been in your
58:16
SPEAKER_00: heart at one point or another.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: And in giving voice to those things,
58:19
it actually gives you an answer that maybe you weren't looking
58:22
for where it's like,
58:23
SPEAKER_00: really?
58:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, like you're going to say it's vain to serve God.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: And then he goes and shows like, well, there is a day coming.
58:28
Maybe the wicked are prospering today and maybe life is good
58:31
for them today.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: But look at the end and then come back to me.
58:35
Like if you are of God's people and you're serving God and you
58:39
think that maybe...
58:40
SPEAKER_00: it's not working out because God hasn't blessed your socks off today.
58:43
SPEAKER_00: Come back to me tomorrow.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: Look at the end of Revelation and say it's vain to serve God.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: But those passages, they confront you with those things.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: Again, even in Job, it's like, well, where were you?
58:54
SPEAKER_00: And we come and bring our questions to God,
58:56
SPEAKER_00: and we probably wondered some of the things that Job wondered.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: We, thank God, haven't experienced life like him.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: But you go through those times of suffering,
59:04
SPEAKER_00: and it gives voice to some of those things,
59:05
SPEAKER_00: and you get to hear God's response and
59:07
SPEAKER_00: In his word.
59:08
And sometimes the response like in Ecclesiastes is like,
59:10
well,
59:11
it's crooked.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: Tough.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you gonna do about it?
59:16
SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
59:16
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing you can do.
59:17
And that's actually one of the reasons Ecclesiastes was so
59:20
helpful for me,
59:21
SPEAKER_00: because I would always get hung up on so many of those tough things.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I don't like this crooked thing.
59:26
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay.
59:27
SPEAKER_00: did we ask for your opinion on that?
59:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like, but I don't like it.
59:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, but that's how the world works.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: And it kind of sucks.
59:33
SPEAKER_00: But what are you going to, like, what are you going to do about it?
59:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, I can't do anything about it.
59:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: So are you going to let that ruin your life?
59:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
59:39
SPEAKER_00: Are you going to say, you know what?
59:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:42
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes things are hard.
59:43
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes things stink.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I would do things differently, but I'm not God.
59:46
And so again,
59:47
like we said earlier,
59:48
I'm going to control what I can control.
59:49
SPEAKER_00: Cause that's all I can control.
59:51
SPEAKER_02: And then remember what, you know,
59:53
What God says to Paul,
59:55
like,
59:55
my grace is sufficient for you,
59:57
even in your weakness.
59:58
SPEAKER_00: And so,
59:58
SPEAKER_02: like,
59:59
the weakness of our inability to control things is precisely
1:00:04
where God's grace is
1:00:05
SPEAKER_02: found.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's such a helpful...
1:00:11
SPEAKER_02: hopeful and helpful message that emerges out of Ecclesiastes.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really helpful when you look at things that way.
1:00:19
There are things that you learn in the valley that you can't
1:00:21
learn on the mountaintop.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: Yep, exactly.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: And there are perspectives that shape you.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: It changes the way you live things.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you,
1:00:27
something that has been helpful in my life is I've dealt with
1:00:31
some different health
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: things for a number of years.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things I deal with is joint pain.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: And it comes out like crazy.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: And there are so many things that we take for granted every day.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:41
And one of the only ways to stop taking something for granted
1:00:44
is to have it taken
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: away from you.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
1:00:46
And it's like I had something going on like two weeks ago where
1:00:50
my shoulder was just killing me.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: And I dealt with this for a while, and it's like it was better.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: And then I can't pick up my kids without like a ton of pain.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden the next day or two days,
1:01:02
SPEAKER_00: three days later,
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: that inflammatory cycle passed.
1:01:06
And it's like I can pick up my little girl who's two years old
1:01:08
without pain now.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wow.
1:01:10
You know,
1:01:10
and it's like,
1:01:10
I do that every day,
1:01:12
but it's,
1:01:13
but it's like,
1:01:13
it's just what you do.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: but this is,
1:01:16
this is a kindness of God to me to give me my little kids that
1:01:19
I can do this with,
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: you know?
1:01:21
SPEAKER_00: And that was not taken away,
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: but the fact that it hurts so bad,
1:01:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: it made it like,
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: you get the idea.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: It's like, but you experienced that.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden you're like, okay.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: I am more blessed on a day-to-day basis than I ever realize.
1:01:35
And sometimes just having those little bad things that come
1:01:39
along the way remind
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: you of how good your life truly is.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's good.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_02: That's really good.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_02: Shifting gears just slightly.
1:01:46
So this book,
1:01:47
From Vanity to Joy,
1:01:50
emerges out of the sermon series on Ecclesiastes.
1:01:53
Kind of talk about that process of taking sermons and
1:01:57
converting them into a book
1:01:59
SPEAKER_02: and making it...
1:02:01
SPEAKER_02: not just resonant to the people that you're preaching to,
1:02:03
SPEAKER_02: but resonant to more audiences and more readers.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: So again, we mentioned earlier, I'm not a, I'm not a topical preacher.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't like topical stuff as much,
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: but one of the things I found is there is a lot of,
1:02:16
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: again,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: the joy passages,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: basically for the most part,
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: your food,
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: your drink,
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: your work,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: like the,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: the,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_00: seemingly boring things in your life, right?
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: Those are a source of joy that you can genuinely find as a gift from God.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: And like, that's a theme.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_00: Fearing God and keeping his commandments is a theme.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: And like,
1:02:36
SPEAKER_00: so one of the things I did is as I was going along,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: I would finish my day in the office.
1:02:41
So the way I structure my week is I do the vast majority of my
1:02:44
sermon prep on a Tuesday.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_00: It's a very long day.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: and I try to have a first draft of a sermon manuscript.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_00: I try to type out every word that I'm going to say.
1:02:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I don't preach for a manuscript.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_00: I know people that do.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: I wish I could because it would give me a lot more control.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: But I'm somebody that once I get going,
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: I kind of just,
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: you go,
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: and then you clean up afterwards.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of how you do things.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_00: But I found that what I would do is on my Tuesday,
1:03:09
SPEAKER_00: like when my quote-unquote workday ended,
1:03:12
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
1:03:12
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: I think this is really good,
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: and I'm going to kind of
1:03:17
Take this and copy and paste sort of thing just to get some of
1:03:20
the main ideas.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: And then I came at it different times just when I got time.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_00: And I'd go through and I'd try to compile it.
1:03:26
And I'm like,
1:03:27
okay,
1:03:27
here's all these different joy passages are kind of saying the
1:03:30
same thing.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want it.
1:03:32
I don't want my book to mirror Ecclesiastes in that it's like,
1:03:36
here we go.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: Bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: I do one big bad and then one big good, you know?
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: And so kind of following that trajectory.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: And I just kind of compiled it.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: I've never written a book before.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: I, I don't, not to be whatever.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: I think it's pretty good.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm not really a proud person.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: by any stretch again,
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: kind of the recovering Eeyore,
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: like that's,
1:04:00
SPEAKER_00: that's who for the long,
1:04:01
SPEAKER_00: longest time in my life,
1:04:01
SPEAKER_00: that's who I'd see,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: like you look in the mirror and you're like,
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:04:05
SPEAKER_00: who is this clown?
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, like, you know, what, like, what do I bring to the table?
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: It's of any value.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
1:04:10
I think it's been very helpful just going through and then
1:04:13
expanding on some of the
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: illustrations,
1:04:15
adding some stuff that the church didn't get to hear because in
1:04:18
the providence of
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: God,
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: it happened in the last calendar year.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: And
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's helpful.
1:04:23
The one danger that I see in it is this is a book that you
1:04:27
don't want to read partway.
1:04:29
I'm sure we've all had books that we've read a chapter of and
1:04:33
put down or read
1:04:34
SPEAKER_00: halfway through and put down.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_00: So I have 12 chapters.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: If you don't make it to chapter five,
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: That's bad,
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: because like I kind of follow that same trajectory where I try really,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_00: really hard to bring people down.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: Just like the author of Ecclesiastes does.
1:04:49
Like,
1:04:49
I want you to feel the weight of how utterly meaningless life
1:04:54
is apart from God.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: And then in chapter five, it's like the lights turn on.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't make it that far.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: Probably don't buy the book at all.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_02: So this is the commercial.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_02: Make it to Chapter 5.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, make it to Chapter 5.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: If you make it to Chapter 5,
1:05:07
SPEAKER_00: the good thing I was talking to my wife,
1:05:08
SPEAKER_00: I said,
1:05:09
SPEAKER_00: I got seven good chapters.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, I got Chapter 5 through 12.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: It's all good.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_00: It's all hopeful.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_00: It's all encouraging.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's probably some convicting stuff in there, too.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I definitely...
1:05:21
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:05:21
there's different times I don't try to pull any punches sort of
1:05:23
things and hit
1:05:24
SPEAKER_00: people with truth.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_00: Again, tough love sometimes is what real love looks like.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: but yeah,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: I kind of tried to follow that similar narrative arc,
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: even though this book isn't a story,
1:05:34
SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:05:36
SPEAKER_00: I tried to follow a bit of an arc where it's like,
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: the introduction's all about Havel,
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: like kind of this idea,
1:05:42
introducing that life is a vapor and knowing that this is kind
1:05:45
of this vaporous
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: experience that we have is kind of an important backdrop.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_00: for Ecclesiastes, for life itself, and for the book.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: and then go into life under the sun.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: That's the first chapter.
1:05:55
And like trying to consolidate the bulk of the negative parts
1:06:00
of Ecclesiastes as
1:06:01
SPEAKER_00: far as life under the sun goes.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: Again,
1:06:04
consolidating a lot of these ideas from messages and even from
1:06:07
other messages from
1:06:08
SPEAKER_00: a while ago,
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: different things that I've studied out.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing when you've studied something even a year or two ago,
1:06:14
SPEAKER_00: how when it's relevant to what you're writing,
1:06:16
you can just crank it out because it's still there in the back
1:06:20
of your mind.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_00: So I went that way,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_00: and then if you've read Ecclesiastes,
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: anybody else that has,
1:06:27
the teacher kind of gives you a bit of a diary after verse 12
1:06:31
in chapter 1,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: I believe.
1:06:33
SPEAKER_00: So he opens with his grand vanity of vanities.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_00: Everything's vanity.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_00: What's gained from all your toil?
1:06:39
SPEAKER_00: What do you get out of this?
1:06:40
SPEAKER_00: Why do you go to work on Mondays?
1:06:42
And then he says,
1:06:43
I,
1:06:43
the teacher,
1:06:43
I've been king for Israel and Jerusalem,
1:06:45
da-da-da-da-da.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: And I applied my heart.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, he goes into this search and he details in that section.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_00: It's like a chapter and a half or whatever, how he got all the things.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_00: He tried to figure the world out, found out you couldn't figure it out.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: He got all the things.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_00: He got all the ladies.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: He got all the wisdom.
1:07:00
He worked really hard and he looked back at everything he had
1:07:02
and he's like,
1:07:03
this is empty.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_00: So that's the second chapter.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: So you kind of go through like vapor is kind of this backdrop.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: life under the sun, some of the hardships.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, well, you know, how does this guy make these claims?
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, who is this guy to say that everything's empty?
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, let me show you.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_00: This is a guy that, like you said, like Jim Carrey, he's been at the top.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_00: In his day, he'd have been a celebrity.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: He'd have been a millionaire,
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: a quadrillionaire,
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: a gazillionaire,
1:07:27
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
1:07:27
SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
1:07:29
Like,
1:07:29
he's the kind of guy that people today would envy because he
1:07:32
had it all.
1:07:33
He's speaking from that position of like,
1:07:35
I acquired what everybody else will try to get
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: and it didn't fulfill me.
1:07:40
SPEAKER_00: So will you trust me?
1:07:42
Will you trust that these things are actually empty and not
1:07:44
have to learn the hard
1:07:45
SPEAKER_00: way on your own?
1:07:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of go there.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_00: I do a little bit of recounting the fall after that.
1:07:54
So before we get to the good news,
1:07:56
I try to give some clarity on the bad news.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_00: So there's like life under the sun,
1:08:00
SPEAKER_00: the badness,
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: here's his proof from his own experience,
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: and here's why everything's bad.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: According to the biblical worldview, God made things good.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people struggle with this idea of the question of theodicy.
1:08:15
How could a good God who is all-powerful and all-loving make a
1:08:19
world that's so screwed up?
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: And people leverage that against the Christian all the time.
1:08:24
And I think probably the everyday average Christian a lot of
1:08:26
times doesn't know how
1:08:26
SPEAKER_00: to answer that.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_00: Because it seems like a gotcha.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like checkmate.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_00: If he's all powerful, then how come it's so messed up?
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: How come he hasn't fixed it?
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: And if he's good, then how come it's bad?
1:08:36
But you look at what the Bible says,
1:08:38
and God looked at everything he created in Genesis 131.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: He says it was very good.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_00: God made a good world.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_00: We messed it up.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's the teaching of the Bible is that it's actually...
1:08:48
SPEAKER_00: human rebellion.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_00: It's sin.
1:08:50
It's all of those things that are at the root of why our
1:08:53
world's so messed up.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_00: And so that's a little bit,
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: again,
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: it's not an apologetics book by any means,
1:08:58
SPEAKER_00: but kind of dipping our toe in there.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_00: Like before we get to the good news,
1:09:01
it's helpful to understand why the world is crooked and why
1:09:06
we're stuck in this
1:09:07
SPEAKER_00: world that's seemingly beyond repair.
1:09:09
And then I have a chapter on this whole idea of the crooked
1:09:12
things remaining crooked.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to remember the name of it.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: Unchanging Rules, I think is what I titled it.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a shorter chapter
1:09:19
SPEAKER_00: But it's basically like this is the world that we live in.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_00: It's crooked.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_00: Here's why it's crooked.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_00: And here is how in the present it's not going to change.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: And so then the next part of the book is like the balls in our court.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_00: We're stuck in this world that we wished was different, but it's not.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_00: So what do we do about that?
1:09:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, the first thing is you need hope.
1:09:37
And the only way you can have hope is you need that God who's
1:09:39
beyond the sun.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_00: So we transition to there,
1:09:41
SPEAKER_00: and then we transition into controlling what you can control,
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: mainly your perspective.
1:09:45
I have a couple different chapters laying out the different
1:09:48
ways that's done.
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: Again,
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: kind of looking at Ecclesiastes in that sense a bit more topically,
1:09:54
SPEAKER_00: finding joy in contentment,
1:09:57
SPEAKER_00: finding joy in the present season,
1:09:58
SPEAKER_00: again,
1:09:59
SPEAKER_00: which you alluded to in chapter three,
1:10:00
SPEAKER_00: and trusting that God has made everything beautiful in its time.
1:10:04
And this trust in a sovereign God who has orchestrated my
1:10:08
life's present season and
1:10:09
SPEAKER_00: uniquely beautiful in some way.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: There's something that he's doing in my life,
1:10:12
SPEAKER_00: even in the seasons that I would change if I could.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_00: And will I trust him in that?
1:10:17
SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of the narrative arc of the book.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_00: Again,
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: the bad,
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: the reason for the bad,
1:10:21
SPEAKER_00: the introduction of the good,
1:10:23
SPEAKER_00: and then living kind of in this in-between time.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_00: And then I end with a note of hope.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_00: Chapter 11, I think it's the most helpful chapter in the book.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_00: It's a life beyond vanity.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's where the gospel comes in and the hope of eternal life.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_00: And just again,
1:10:36
SPEAKER_00: that how much more idea of like,
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: if this guy could find joy in his earthly existence,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: not knowing the name of Jesus,
1:10:44
SPEAKER_00: not knowing salvation by grace through faith at Calvary,
1:10:47
SPEAKER_00: like he didn't have that whole picture,
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: but we do.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_00: How much more should we be able to see
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: a reason for hope and joy and peace and meaning in life,
1:10:55
SPEAKER_00: knowing that I can have an eternal impact on the lives of others.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: Like that's a huge deal.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_00: That's not vain.
1:11:01
You know,
1:11:02
from an atheistic worldview,
1:11:03
again,
1:11:04
we're all just cosmic accident.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_00: We're the monkeys who hit the DNA lottery.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: There's no reason to our lives.
1:11:10
SPEAKER_00: And you could say, well, I'm going to help somebody else.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, they're going to die anyways.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: Big deal.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I devote my life to, you know, philanthropy or whatever.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to try to, it's like, but they're going to die.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_00: So in the scheme of the existence of this universe we live in,
1:11:23
SPEAKER_00: There is no meaning.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_00: But if there is a God who's beyond the sun,
1:11:27
SPEAKER_00: if he really is who he claims to be,
1:11:29
SPEAKER_00: if he's really acted in redemption,
1:11:32
then when you and I serve in our local churches and love on our
1:11:36
people and preach
1:11:37
SPEAKER_00: God's word week after week,
1:11:39
SPEAKER_00: we can have an impact for eternity versus just,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: you see,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:11:44
SPEAKER_00: and that's the beauty.
1:11:45
Like,
1:11:45
that's where you should land is the hope is like,
1:11:47
okay,
1:11:47
this world is crooked.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_00: There's things that I would change.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_00: it might seem meaningless,
1:11:51
but like my time here can have an eternal impact that does
1:11:55
actually matter.
1:11:56
SPEAKER_00: And so I can have hope.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_00: And so we end there.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_00: And then there's kind of just a closing chapter.
1:12:01
Again,
1:12:02
that idea of fearing God and enjoying the ride,
1:12:03
tying it all together.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: Before that,
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: I do have an entire chapter on the fear of the Lord,
1:12:07
because the one thing I don't want in a book on joy is for
1:12:10
people to just go to
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: like the hedonism of like,
1:12:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to pursue pleasure as my greatest goal.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well,
1:12:15
You know,
1:12:16
the fear of the Lord is basically what keeps that,
1:12:20
you know,
1:12:20
in check.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
1:12:21
I'm going to enjoy my life and what I control what I can
1:12:24
control in a way that
1:12:26
SPEAKER_00: according to God's word is pleasing to him.
1:12:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm going to fear God.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to keep his command.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_00: Like that is the necessary qualifier.
1:12:33
If you don't have that,
1:12:34
then it's all going to be just,
1:12:35
again,
1:12:35
back to that.
1:12:36
chapter two,
1:12:37
pursuit of hedonism,
1:12:38
pursuing more and more and more and more and more.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_00: And it realized in those things,
1:12:41
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
1:12:42
SPEAKER_00: no,
1:12:42
SPEAKER_00: they have to be enjoyed in relationship to the God who is the giver.
1:12:46
And so those things are kind of married together and then kind
1:12:49
of end it with a
1:12:50
SPEAKER_00: bow,
1:12:50
SPEAKER_00: that idea of fearing God and enjoying the ride.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I don't know.
1:12:54
SPEAKER_00: As I said, I think it's good.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_00: I find that when I read my stuff,
1:12:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
1:12:58
SPEAKER_00: I think this is all right,
1:12:59
SPEAKER_00: but I got an app recently called 11 Reader.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've ever heard of the AI apps that read to you.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_00: So like,
1:13:06
SPEAKER_00: Your standard reader app on your computer makes it sound super robotic.
1:13:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: You'll be like, this is from vanity.
1:13:13
SPEAKER_00: You're listening to it.
1:13:13
SPEAKER_00: You're like, I'm not buying this book.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_00: This is garbage.
1:13:16
SPEAKER_00: But they have in our day and age,
1:13:19
SPEAKER_00: they have apps that make it sound like an audio book,
1:13:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:22
SPEAKER_00: like and it's all electronically read.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_00: And the first time I listened through it,
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: not in my voice,
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
1:13:29
SPEAKER_00: if I listen to this like it's somebody else's work,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: I think this is actually pretty good.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_00: Like to me,
1:13:34
SPEAKER_00: it's like if nobody ever benefits from it,
1:13:37
SPEAKER_00: I benefit from it because I need to like – Ecclesiastes changed my life,
1:13:41
SPEAKER_00: but I am not fixed yet.
1:13:43
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm still a work in progress.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_00: I still have bad days like we all do, you know?
1:13:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:13:48
And it's helpful for me to go back to even my own material to
1:13:51
tell me like,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: dude,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: you don't realize how good you've got to get your act together.
1:13:54
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
1:13:56
So listening to it from somebody else's voice gives you like a
1:13:59
bit more of a
1:14:00
SPEAKER_00: distant perspective that was actually super helpful.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:14:03
That's what was really helpful for me when I wrote my book a
1:14:06
couple years ago.
1:14:08
was just,
1:14:09
it may sound so conceited and selfish,
1:14:11
but I assure you it's not.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_02: But I was writing that book really for me.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, I knew what I was going through in those moments.
1:14:20
And so,
1:14:21
like my book,
1:14:21
Finding God in the Darkness,
1:14:24
how does God find us in the darkness?
1:14:26
And that kind of sentiment,
1:14:28
that kind of message is the one that I needed to hear.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_02: So, like,
1:14:32
Again,
1:14:32
like I've heard stories about people being impacted by that
1:14:35
book,
1:14:37
which is awesome.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_02: That's the only reason why I wrote it.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_02: And I wrote it because I knew what I needed to hear.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_02: And anyway,
1:14:43
SPEAKER_02: I think that's really helpful because even if,
1:14:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:14:46
SPEAKER_02: you're writing this book because – me,
1:14:49
SPEAKER_02: why I write is because I want to try and think deeply about these things.
1:14:54
And I think writing a book allows you – like the difference
1:14:58
between like a sermon –
1:15:00
in like a Substack article and like a book,
1:15:02
they can feel similar.
1:15:05
One has a really specific audience,
1:15:07
a sermon,
1:15:08
a local audience,
1:15:09
a Substack article.
1:15:10
SPEAKER_02: You have to get to your point a little bit.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_00: It's a bit more generalized.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, one size fits all.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_02: But a book allows you to have,
1:15:15
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:15:15
SPEAKER_02: one of the most helpful pieces of advice I got was from Chad Bird.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_02: He was helping me.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_02: He wrote the forward to my book,
1:15:20
SPEAKER_02: and he was talking about the idea,
1:15:22
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:15:23
SPEAKER_02: when you're writing a book,
1:15:25
SPEAKER_02: how do you go from,
1:15:26
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:15:26
SPEAKER_02: taking an article and,
1:15:27
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:15:27
SPEAKER_02: making a chapter in your book?
1:15:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, you can just...
1:15:31
SPEAKER_02: take your time a lot more.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's, what's really helpful.
1:15:34
You can,
1:15:34
okay,
1:15:34
let me pause and let me really unpack what I'm trying to say.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_02: So from a sermon,
1:15:40
SPEAKER_02: you're like,
1:15:40
SPEAKER_02: let's get to the point and a Substack article,
1:15:42
SPEAKER_02: let's get to the point.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_02: And here in a book, you're like, I can really take my time.
1:15:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_00: You could set up shop on that.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_02: And it allows you to think through these things a little bit deeper.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:52
It was helpful for me when I was going through,
1:15:54
one of the things I found is
1:15:56
SPEAKER_00: I always said,
1:15:57
SPEAKER_00: and apparently I was wrong,
1:15:59
SPEAKER_00: I always said,
1:15:59
SPEAKER_00: if I ever write a book,
1:16:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to have 20-page chapters,
1:16:04
SPEAKER_00: because I hate reading books that have 20-page chapters.
1:16:06
SPEAKER_00: It just feels so long.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, 15 tops.
1:16:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I will confess, I think four of my 12 chapters are 20 pages.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:13
SPEAKER_00: I was telling my wife yesterday,
1:16:15
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
1:16:15
SPEAKER_00: I never actually looked at the final page counts,
1:16:17
SPEAKER_00: like in the printed form.
1:16:18
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm a liar.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, I got like three that are 20 and one that's 22.
1:16:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh boy.
1:16:23
SPEAKER_00: But I had one that I actually, I actually nipped my chapter three.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_00: And chapter four was initially just chapter three.
1:16:31
And finally,
1:16:32
you know,
1:16:33
I felt for a couple of reasons that I should split them.
1:16:35
SPEAKER_00: One was it was like almost a 30 page chapter.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_00: So that was, yeah, that was a big need.
1:16:39
SPEAKER_00: And two is like,
1:16:40
then it gave me more time to that chapter on unchanging rules
1:16:44
of like chapter
1:16:46
SPEAKER_00: three,
1:16:46
SPEAKER_00: this is why the world's crooked.
1:16:47
This is the biblical worldview on where suffering comes in with
1:16:50
the fall and all this.
1:16:51
SPEAKER_00: And chapter four is like, well, listen, you're stuck with that.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_00: And I got to sit in that.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_00: It's not a real long chapter.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_00: I think it's the shortest one in the book.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_00: But I got to sit with that a little bit more.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, this is life.
1:17:03
SPEAKER_00: You can't change it.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: And just really let that part of the message go.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_00: just marinate,
1:17:08
SPEAKER_00: I guess a little bit more for the people like,
1:17:10
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:17:10
like you need to grasp how inconsequential your actions are in
1:17:15
the scheme of,
1:17:16
SPEAKER_00: of the universe God's made.
1:17:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, like you can't, you can't fix the crooked things.
1:17:20
SPEAKER_00: You can't, you're stuck with it.
1:17:21
And the example I use in the book is,
1:17:24
um,
1:17:24
I was,
1:17:25
I was training for my first marathon last year.
1:17:26
SPEAKER_00: It actually, unfortunately didn't go.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_00: So I say my first marathon, it's the first time I trained for a marathon.
1:17:30
SPEAKER_00: I still haven't run one,
1:17:31
SPEAKER_00: but I,
1:17:32
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:17:32
SPEAKER_00: I was in the middle of marathon training and I broke a toe and,
1:17:34
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:17:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a bummer.
1:17:41
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, you use your little toe when you run a lot.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_00: You don't realize it until it's not there.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's still there, but you know what I mean.
1:17:48
SPEAKER_00: And I'm dealing with my kids,
1:17:50
SPEAKER_00: and the day that I broke my toe,
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: I ran 14 miles that morning,
1:17:54
SPEAKER_00: and I felt great.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_00: It was the longest I'd ever run in my life.
1:17:56
SPEAKER_00: I'd done a couple half marathons, and I ran that day 14 miles.
1:18:00
SPEAKER_00: So that was the longest I'd ever done,
1:18:01
SPEAKER_00: just a training run out at the trail down the road,
1:18:04
SPEAKER_00: the Wiser State Forest Trail.
1:18:07
And that night I broke my toe and I could hardly hobble through
1:18:09
the house.
1:18:10
SPEAKER_00: And like, what are you going to do about that?
1:18:13
SPEAKER_00: I can't unbreak it.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_00: Like I can't go back and talk.
1:18:15
SPEAKER_00: And it actually, as much as I would rather not relive that.
1:18:18
SPEAKER_00: And it really,
1:18:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:18:19
SPEAKER_00: it was just a mess,
1:18:21
but it really gave me good voice for this like crooked thing
1:18:24
that you can't
1:18:25
SPEAKER_00: straighten.
1:18:25
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, that sucks.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:18:27
SPEAKER_00: So what are you going to do about it?
1:18:29
SPEAKER_00: Like you can choose to be grumpy about this for the whole rest of this,
1:18:33
SPEAKER_00: what was supposed to be your training cycle.
1:18:35
You can be mad at your kids because they were fighting and
1:18:38
that's what got you to
1:18:39
urgently run through the house and fail to thread the needle
1:18:42
between the dining
1:18:42
SPEAKER_00: room table and the pantry wall.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're at this stage.
1:18:46
SPEAKER_00: My daughters are six and two.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_00: And they're wonderful.
1:18:49
SPEAKER_00: They are God's great.
1:18:50
SPEAKER_00: I can't say greatest because God's been so kind to me,
1:18:53
SPEAKER_00: but they are one of God's greatest gifts to me.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_00: I love my kids to death.
1:18:56
SPEAKER_00: But my six-year-old sometimes likes to harass the two-year-old.
1:18:58
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, can you guys just get along, please?
1:19:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, like, come on.
1:19:03
And so all of a sudden,
1:19:04
you know,
1:19:04
the little one's screaming like bloody murder.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
1:19:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:08
SPEAKER_00: my older daughter's never like abusive or anything,
1:19:10
SPEAKER_00: but she's probably just taking a toy from her,
1:19:12
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
1:19:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_00: but I go to the,
1:19:13
SPEAKER_00: through the house to try to,
1:19:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:15
SPEAKER_00: administer justice,
1:19:16
SPEAKER_00: find out whatever's going on.
1:19:18
SPEAKER_00: And that's when it happened.
1:19:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
1:19:20
SPEAKER_00: and then I could,
1:19:21
SPEAKER_00: I could be mad at my kids for the next six months because,
1:19:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:24
like in one sense it's my fault because I was the one that
1:19:27
kicked the wall.
1:19:28
SPEAKER_00: But in another sense,
1:19:29
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
1:19:29
I wouldn't have been running through my house if they wouldn't
1:19:32
have been fighting,
1:19:32
SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
1:19:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:33
SPEAKER_00: what's done is done.
1:19:35
SPEAKER_00: I can be mad at them.
1:19:36
SPEAKER_00: That's not going to fix this.
1:19:38
SPEAKER_00: I can be upset about it.
1:19:39
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to fix this.
1:19:41
I can choose to just like this sucks and it is what it is and
1:19:45
try to make the most of it.
1:19:46
SPEAKER_00: And by the grace of God,
1:19:47
SPEAKER_00: I went and saw a doctor and I was like,
1:19:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:51
SPEAKER_00: depending on who you ask,
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: he was like,
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: well,
1:19:54
SPEAKER_00: if it doesn't hurt too bad,
1:19:56
SPEAKER_00: it's not broken bad enough that you have to like stay off of it.
1:19:59
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, so you mean I can go for a run?
1:20:01
SPEAKER_00: He's like, if you can handle the pain, yeah.
1:20:04
So it's like it ended up not being as bad as it – I mean it
1:20:06
still really sidetracked my plans.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_00: And it was incredibly painful.
1:20:10
SPEAKER_00: I'd never broken a bone in my body.
1:20:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty subtle.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_00: It's not like I broke a femur.
1:20:13
SPEAKER_00: It's a pinky toe.
1:20:14
SPEAKER_00: But like,
1:20:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:20:15
SPEAKER_00: you look at that and it's like it gave me voice,
1:20:18
SPEAKER_00: again,
1:20:18
for this thing that I had kind of been writing about or at
1:20:22
least was going to be
1:20:23
SPEAKER_00: writing about.
1:20:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember the timeframe.
1:20:24
Again,
1:20:24
this book's been – I started it on my birthday last year in
1:20:27
February.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_00: So I'm really hoping –
1:20:30
Lord willing,
1:20:30
if the second proof copy goes good to publish it the day before
1:20:33
my birthday.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_00: So it'll be a 364 day project.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_00: Be kind of cool.
1:20:37
SPEAKER_00: We'll see how it works.
1:20:39
SPEAKER_00: But yes,
1:20:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember the exact timeframe,
1:20:41
SPEAKER_00: but like you said,
1:20:42
it gives you a chance to kind of unpack those ideas and having
1:20:47
a whole chapter on
1:20:47
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:20:47
SPEAKER_00: this is just the way life is,
1:20:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:20:50
SPEAKER_00: forcing you to sit with it.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_00: It was helpful for me.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_02: That's good.
1:20:53
SPEAKER_02: So by the time this podcast is out there, this book will be available.
1:20:57
SPEAKER_02: Where can folks find it?
1:20:59
SPEAKER_02: And where can they find more of you and your writing?
1:21:02
SPEAKER_02: And so where can people connect with you?
1:21:04
Yeah,
1:21:04
so Lord willing,
1:21:05
this will be going live on Amazon February 10th is the hope.
1:21:09
SPEAKER_00: If not, again, by the time this airs, probably will be live.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_00: It'll be on Amazon.
1:21:14
SPEAKER_00: It's a self-published book on KDP.
1:21:17
So as far as I know right now,
1:21:18
that's the only place you can get it unless
1:21:20
you know,
1:21:20
me personally,
1:21:21
I should have some author copies sometime in there.
1:21:24
And you can follow my writing on Substack at
1:21:26
withoutexceptionchristianity.com.
1:21:29
SPEAKER_00: Without Exception is kind of my online ministry space,
1:21:33
SPEAKER_00: this idea of like day-by-day faith,
1:21:35
SPEAKER_00: living every day without exception for the kingdom of God.
1:21:38
SPEAKER_00: And so...
1:21:39
SPEAKER_00: That's where you can find more about me.
1:21:41
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
1:21:41
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
1:21:42
SPEAKER_02: All the links for that will be in the notes.
1:21:44
And make sure to pick up your copy of From Vanity to Joy or
1:21:48
pre-order it whenever
1:21:49
SPEAKER_02: that's available.
1:21:50
SPEAKER_02: Or by the time this is out there, it's probably going to be available.
1:21:53
SPEAKER_02: So anyways, find that link, go there, buy it.
1:21:56
SPEAKER_02: And if you're on Substack, subscribe to Josiah.
1:21:59
SPEAKER_02: Man, thank you for being here.
1:22:00
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for talking about your book.
1:22:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
1:22:03
And I can't wait until,
1:22:05
not to put pressure on you,
1:22:06
can't wait until your next book.
1:22:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll see how it goes.
1:22:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, appreciate it, man.
1:22:11
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
1:22:12
I hope you've enjoyed and been blessed by this particular
1:22:14
episode of the Ministry
1:22:15
SPEAKER_02: Minded Podcast.
1:22:16
SPEAKER_02: If you haven't yet,
1:22:17
make sure to go subscribe to Josiah's Substack and make sure to
1:22:21
pick a copy of his
1:22:22
SPEAKER_02: book.
1:22:22
SPEAKER_02: The links for that are in the notes for this episode.
1:22:25
So make sure before you click away,
1:22:26
make sure you go to the notes and check all those links out.
1:22:29
SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for subscribing to Ministry Minded.
1:22:32
SPEAKER_02: You can do that on Apple, on Spotify, right here on Substack.
1:22:35
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for all of your support and encouragement.
1:22:38
It always means a lot when you are reaching out,
1:22:40
giving me notes and commenting.
1:22:42
SPEAKER_02: And just thank you for listening.
1:22:44
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully you've been blessed by this episode.
1:22:47
SPEAKER_02: And I can't wait to see you until the next one.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_02: Blessings.
1:22:50
SPEAKER_02: See you then.