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Tools for Quick Success When Running Your Financial Planning Business · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: And today's guest on the Financial Planner Life podcast is Tom Hamm.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: He is the CEO of the Carton Group and director of Game Plan.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: He set up his own financial planning business, quickly growing the number of advisors.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: And today he shares how he did that.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: We also talk about the power of taking on non-executive directors very early on in a business.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: And he talks about the types of non-executive directors that he's actually taken on and the impact that they've had in his business and how he basically remunerates them without paying them a salary.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a really interesting subject.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Got me thinking about non-executive directors in my own business.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: Tom's a really honest guy and he shares really deeply about his career within financial planning.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: He talks about some of the things he gets up to when it comes to winning new client relationships, how to become a key person of influence as well.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: There's something for everybody in this episode.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you enjoy it.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Tom, thank you so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, Sam, thanks uh thanks so much for having me.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, thrilled to be here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: No problem at all.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: It was great to get you on the podcast.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: I've, you know, I've funny enough, I can tell I can just I think I could talk to you all day long, I think.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've had a good conversation with you in my pre-podcast exploratory chat a few weeks back, and then I obviously got super duper ill, so I had to cancel the podcast.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, I'm back in the land of the living now, and we've already gassed for about 20 minutes before the start of this podcast.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: So um lots of things to talk about.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're obviously somebody that enjoys a conversation.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I think to be successful in this profession, you need to enjoy a conversation, you need to have a curiosity about people.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um because you know it's about people, not money.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you're, I say to people, if you're not curious about other people, then it's probably not the right one for you.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, I can quite happily spend all day just nattering to people and hearing about them.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, fantastic.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: And you're absolutely spot on there.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, I had someone on this morning and and and I mentioned to you, and he's a young guy who was very technically sound, like he's chartered, 24 years old, went to university.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: Whilst he was at university, did his level four qualifications, did a finance degree, and had a placement within a financial planning firm.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, when he came out, he was full to the brim of all this technical information.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he worked as an analyst as well within that placement.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: And when he went into his first client meetings, he bamboozed the client said, You bored me to death.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a famous story.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's not famous, but there's a story that uh I think is off told at a place I used to work at.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And my first client meeting there, um, because it was very corporate and very structured.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: My um first client meeting that was observed by my regional manager took over three and a half hours.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we ended up going through the client's line of expenditure line by line on their bank statement.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he and the regional manager had to leave the room and phone the next two appointments to bump them back and eventually just cancelled the next one.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we went and then we went to the other one sort of two hours late or something.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as we walked out, he went, you know, so how do you think that went?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, Well, crap, wasn't it?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was appalling because I lost control of it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, we ended up talking about how much they spend on papers every day, and just got completely into the detail of it because that's what I thought they wanted, because it was super corporate, and that was the, you know, that was the vibe.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that was all very humiliating and amusing in an equal manner.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that's it, exactly that.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: These learning experiences you go through, you've almost got to kind of fail even you to find out what's the right way to interact with people and the quick, the quickest, easiest way to build rapport with somebody.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's an interesting point, actually.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to throw a question at you at this stage, actually, around that part of the process.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think is the quickest way to build a relationship with somebody when you're sitting down in front of them and you're hoping to bring them on as a client within your financial planning practice?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's finding, you know, it's there's the confidence thing.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: You want them to have confidence in you.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you want to not sound like a salesman where you've got, you know, you've always dealt with everyone like them and you've got one like that at home.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you want to find some common ground between this client that you're in front of and your practice.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And chances are, if you have no common ground with the clients that you've helped to this point, then actually you probably should be signposting them somewhere else.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, an advisor was telling me recently, a really great advisor was telling me that this sort of you know, massive in terms of AUM client walk through the door, it was you know bigger than a lot of practices that I've I've encountered, you know, for the just this one guy, and he said, Look, you're you're too big for me, you're too much of a risk of the business.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: We we need to find you uh another way of working, of getting advice.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and he was brave enough to say that, whereas actually a lot of people will just sit there and go, Yeah, no, no, I have loads of people that have the net worth of lichenshine, and and I can definitely look after you when you know, so it's that it's the finding a bit of common ground and find building confidence, like well, allowing the client to build confidence in in you, I think.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, that all comes back to you know, people deal with people that look like them.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I end up dealing with a lot of people that have similar hobbies and pastimes to me and things like that, because those are the so I, you know, um used to be in the um Army Reserve, so I have a lot of military clients and ex-military clients and things like that because we we've got a shared understanding and a shared experience.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think it comes down to that idea of should you be casting your net nice and wide to try and find clients, or should you should you be niching down and specifically targeting people like you say that you might have common ground with, or at least that you have shared experiences with, where you can be relatable really, really quickly?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what's do you tend to seek out people like you, or do you feel that you just attract people like that due to the time that you spent giving advice to similar types of clients?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's your sort of strategy around that?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Are you a niche-focused individual and you search out those military people?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: So you go into networking events where they are, for instance, or is it like referral side?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: How does it work?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I think so.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting one there.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I was at the Landcat conference in February, and this came up, and we had a bit of a when I was on the stage and we had a bit of a chat about it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, the niching piece is when you exclude all others.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um you can try and there's the bit where you you focus on these clients on the on these particular type of clients, and to the and you'll still accept other people if they walk through the door.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that's not niching, it's just having focused marketing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you're niching, you're going, you know, I want to deal with ex-military personnel, um, or people in the military or other armed uh or other public service, and actually, Mr.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Millionaire, I'm not gonna deal with you because you come from tech or something like that.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I said then, and and you know, it takes, if you're starting up practice, it takes a lot of guts to niche.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I doff my cap to anyone who who sort of says, no, I'm gonna deal with this one particular type of person and to the exclusion of all others, because it's a really brave thing to do.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: When we started the business um that I'm in, I was very much, you know, we'll deal with anyone, you know, we need cash flow, we need we need clients, we'll deal with anyone.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what came out of it was so I spend a lot of time, so Mahi social media is full of me um doing things like you know, field sports um and and being on uh relatives' farms.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so you then tend to get a certain type of people that engage with me through there.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have a very good friend who is an accountant who works in the estate planning um space for landed estates.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So again, you know, and I can have I've I you know I come from a mining village in Yorkshire.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um however, you know, my in-laws and things, uh you know, different background, and that that's their sort of background.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So having been involved in that side of um things through extended family, um, there's again there's a shared experience, experience there.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we naturally found ourselves drawing ex-military personnel and current current military personnel, uh, along with sort of you know farmers and uh landed estate owners.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we we just you know we don't like saying I look like them because I don't have a I don't have an estate or a farm.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what I mean?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, we we look like them and there's that shared experience.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we a lot of it was organic.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't there was a bit of networking with the military side of things, you know.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in the I'm an ex-cavalry soldier, so in the Edinburgh Cavalry Club, and a couple of other sort of um things like that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So naturally people would gravitate to you through there, those sort of things.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the rest of it was just sort of social media and people seeing you and going, Oh, I think we have a common ground.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think I can I think I can uh share, share this experience with you, and you'll be able to help me.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're now getting a bit more intentional about things over the last sort of six months or so.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've really started getting intentional with the marketing of the business.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that's what you're giving there is a really great example of being a key person of influence within a specific network.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you, as you say, look the part fit in, as in you have some understanding or awareness of what say farmers are doing, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you position yourself as a bit of an um a financial advisor to the farming community, is there anybody else positioning themselves as a financial planner to the farming community?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: And if there isn't, then you lean into that and you kind of lean in off the back of what you know, the fact that you've got family within it and it's relatable.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's almost the enough to be able to be let into a circle of trust.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: And when you're that specialist within that circle of trust and you start helping people within that circle, within that, within that niche, you become that key person of influence within that key person of key person of influence within that niche, you then you're then sort of, you know, Dave, you've got to meet, you've got to meet Tom, you've got to meet, you know, and all of a sudden you're being passed around all these different types of people.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: And your aim is to try to try to find, isn't it, other key people of influence within that space who are influential that can then pass you around and introduce you in the right way.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a really good tactic.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's like me being a recruitment consultant.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not a financial advisor, but I know a thing or two about what the financial planning profession is.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: But one of my expertise is I also know what recruitment looks like.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I know what's good, I know what's bad.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I can help companies hire, I can give people advice about how to get ahead in their career.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: So therefore, I use that expertise, I use my understanding of financial planning to create a podcast.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: And therefore, bam, I'm in there, I'm in the circle of trust.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm the trusted advisor to the financial planning profession.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not considered the demon devil recruitment consultant anymore.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I think sometimes when we're looking at ways to market ourselves and position ourselves within a specific area, look at what you have and how you can use to give that back to that circle, that community.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then once they once they understand that and it's relatable, you're in and they pass you around and ask, isn't it, as well as how many times have you asked for referrals?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: How many times have you asked to be recommended to somebody else that they might well know or an event you've been invited to, or something along those lines?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really bad at asking for referrals.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like the worst at it, but it's that thing of you know, I try and give a whole load of value.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh you know, so there's a thing about, you know, so there's a thing called agricultural um relief that you can get for farms.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you can have it on, and if it's being farmed by someone else, you need a particular type of agreement, and I and it has to be written in a certain way.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now I don't know how to write that agreement, but I know that it has to be done in a certain way.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when I'm sat with clients, I'll say, okay, so who wrote your your farming, your contract farming agreement, and has it been written um with claiming uh APR in mind?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and if they say if clients say no, I would then know enough to say, well, actually, I need to introduce you to someone.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, who's gonna who can just cast an eye over it, you know, and and I know a couple of people just cast an eye and go, yeah, you're cool, or actually, this is not written in such a way, you need to do you need to do it this way.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think having that, and then you know, there's no, you know, I didn't make a charge for that, it's just me trying to be helpful at a drink spark or anything like that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then eventually um someone will come back.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we had something where we did uh a bit of pen, a really minor bit of pension planning for someone, you know, and it was it was a real minor piece.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then, and we mentioned during the conversation, you know, these are the other things that we do.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then they and and I'd I'd mentioned in passing, oh well, if you're doing the inheritance tax piece, make sure you look at your your contract farming arrangements and things.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Next thing I you know, well, it was about it wasn't next thing I know at all, it was about 18 months later, get a phone call saying, right, accountants, I'm not happy with the accountants that we've been working on on this for us.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want you?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Can you come in and do it?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it was, and I knew at that stage I couldn't do the whole thing.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, Well, you know, I'm gonna come, but I'm gonna bring my friend with me from a different accountancy firm, and we'll talk to you together.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of it, we'll say, and I knew walking in there that actually there might not be any work for me.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: There might not be anything in it for me.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It might be, it might have been a wasted three hours, you know, three quarters of an hour there, three quarters an hour back, and then an hour and a half with the clients.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: It might have been a waste, wasted sort of three-hour trip, and my pal might have got all the work out of it.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but actually, we went in there and I said, okay, there are some financial planning bits that we need to do alongside the accounting piece.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, we we got the we got the you know, we landed the bit of business.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: But but that's a great example of partnering with other experts from other areas um and other fields of support, you know, of other expertise, right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: So if you've got somebody in your back pocket who's an accountant, then even if you if you bring that accountant along with you and you're sitting there and listening to the accountant do do their thing, right?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Explaining the ins and outs of what that proposition looks like and how that accountant, you know, if they did it the right way, could help that farmer.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: Now, for you, that's an education piece, isn't it?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because you get to sit there and learn and see and observe.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: So when it comes to the next time you have a conversation with somebody, you very quickly can establish whether they have something or not.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: And there is a need, therefore, you can say, I've got somebody, I can pass them across to you, and they'll be able to help you.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you show that value to somebody else and you show that you can give them something that doesn't make you yourself any money, you're not, it's not about you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: People respect you more and people trust you more.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why, especially around this day and age as well, it's why you see so many people giving free content away, you know, because when we give stuff away for free and it's adding value to somebody's life, they're gonna want to deal with you in the future and they remember that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: But also, as well, we can't forget the actual but the the power of passing across to that accountant because that accountant's gonna love you, aren't they?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: They're gonna look, they're gonna think you're fantastic, you know.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: This person, A, knows what they're talking about, and they're referring me business.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: So guess what?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna do exactly the same when I when I come across somebody who needs some financial some complex financial planning done that can support what I'm doing.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: So therefore, there's that building of those cross-referral networks, isn't it?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like having that strength, having that network of people around you.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: I love having somebody who's an expert in marketing, somebody who's an expert in video, and that's why I'm building all these plethora of different services because it's all about sort of very quickly cross-referring somebody over into somewhere else and creates that kind of whole kind of business support model.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then at some point you get it back.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: You get it back in in spades.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: So lovely.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: So do you um you've obviously been running your own business, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk a little bit about that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: So um, this podcast is very much geared around careers within financial planning.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you get people listening to this podcast that are in the profession, peer-to-peer learning.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: So you might have a financial advisor thinking about setting up their own business, but you might have somebody who's a graduate thinking about becoming a financial planner.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just talk a little bit about how you first of all got into the financial planning profession to get to the level where you are right this second.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um, like everybody, I think, all well, no, it's great to see people coming in, like the chap you were talking about earlier, the graduate who's uh obviously very intentionally come into financial services.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of us sort of of my of my generation um uh fell in, you know, because nobody really knew what a financial advisor was when I was um when I when I were a lad.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to university to study uh civil engineering, uh studied at Coventry, and was and but played ice hockey to a reasonable level.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I was involved in the sort of setting up of the um the University Ice Hockey League and um you know various other things and was around that sort of um hockey scene for quite a while.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we at that point um my grandmother um died and left me a bit of money to do something silly with.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I decided I didn't want to be an engineer anymore.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um I used that money to sort of travel around, job around, and try and get a job playing professional ice hockey.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out my um skill level was nowhere near what was required.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't match my enthusiasm.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I but then sort of realized I needed to put food on the table at some point.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So got a temporary job with AXA Equity and Law or AXA Sun Life, I think they were at that point.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it was um, you know, the guaranteed over 50s plans that you see advertised during the day.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So my first job in financial services was I was the guy that you rung up and chased if your DVD player hadn't arrived when you'd paid your first premium.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And after about two weeks, so I'm I'm I'm a bit of a git.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if I think someone's taking the mick, I'll try and hunt it down.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I was the one that when people come through and I go, look, we've sent three DVD players to you, I'm not sending another one.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would I would email Royal Mail and say, Please can you send us the scans of the signature?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'd match the scan of the signature because these people were so stupid, they wouldn't use a different signature against the signature on the application form.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I ring them up and say, Look, I know you're at it.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can either we don't want them back, the DVD players back, but you can you know stop trying to do this, uh, or we'll call the we'll call the Rossers and you know, I'll leave it out of it.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and after about a week of that, um, they turned around and said, Look, you you've clearly are reasonably competent um and a bit tenacious.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want a full-time job in the pensions department?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I moved over and worked on the old AXA um pensions, uh, hall of life plans, um, uh, I think those investment bonds as well.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Did a load of internal training and all that after a while, after sort of, I think I was there two and a half years, then moved on to the the sort of this side of the fence um from provider land.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was a client technical administrator with a business in Birmingham for a while, uh, again for about 18 months, two years.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then I took a bit of time out because I got the job coaching the Great Britain Paralympic ice hockey team.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um job is implies some sort of financial remuneration.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was very much a very much a labour of love.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it was to the extent that I used to use my, you know, you'd claim your petrol, and at that point, I think it cost me about 15p to run the car, but I got 45p per mile, and I'd live on the 30p per mile because I was doing about a thousand miles a week at one stage.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that was how I got sort of got a salary.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that was a great experience working with you know a load of people that have been through real adversity, and it made you just go, well, you know, whatever I'm facing probably isn't that serious.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I you know, we can probably probably quiz it out.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um then I uh you know did that for a paralympic cycle and then was sort of you know, come on, ham, you're coming up to 30 now, you probably need a job that um pays actual money.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so ended up with a small business in Edinburgh.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'd moved up to Edinburgh, I was dating a girl in Edinburgh at this point who's sort of in that period, so moved up to Edinburgh, and um started working with a business called Walters and Sheck in Edinburgh and a guy called Stephen Walters who was absolutely fantastic, um, really great guy, uh, trained me, uh, instilled a lot of really good, or I always say all the good stuff or you know, in my behaviors came from the ground, and I got with Stephen, um, you know, ex-submarine officer, um, really interesting guy.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he, you know, was was sort of charging fee-based financial planning before fee-based financial planning was a thing.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he was doing cash flow modeling before cash flow modeling was a thing.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it was this like 13,000 cell spreadsheet that we had that he and another guy uh there had built um and sort of had tested by some PhD mathematician.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, it was essentially cash calc.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was what we know to be cash calc now.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they had built it.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, it was, you know, so so building cash flows was would take a day to do it with the and test it and things.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was great fun.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was there for I think about five years, and I only left because I think Stephen has got a great business and it sort of suited him, and you know, and I was kind of I yeah, I've always been quite ambitious, and I think um it was it was just not going to be a good fit long term.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also I probably needed to learn off someone else as well.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, uh and it you know, so I still think he's absolutely fantastic.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: We meet you know sort of periodically to go for lunch.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think whenever something good happens, you get a message, you get some message off me still saying thanks so much.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: This wouldn't have happened if um we we hadn't got this, uh, you know, you I hadn't got the training from you.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then from there, I had a bit of a tricky year.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I went self-employed through a network for a year, which was just it was quite, it was, it was a bit tricky.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't, it was the first year post-RDR, didn't really, um I didn't really get what I didn't really get the sales side of being an advisor, didn't really uh appreciate it and how tricky it was going to be.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Also, a bit of a, you know, I took on a block of clients in Dundee that was, you know, so so good the guy didn't want to do his level four qualification, and instead, you know, got me to come in and he was gonna keep 20% of whatever I um build on top of the 20% of the network we're taking, or whatever it was, and all this.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And great guy, you know, he's a great guy, but you know, I it was slightly what I was walking into was slightly oversold.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially, it was two filing cabinets at the back of the room and it was go for your life.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um was there for a year, and and alongside this, I joined the Army Reserve.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I was doing a lot of reserve stuff, um, and went and worked with a business called Wealth at Work in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: In which a discretionary fund manager.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it was sort of one of two people covering Scotland at that point.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you know, it was a good year.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was, were I not in the army as well, it might have done a bit longer, but I think I did something like 32,000 business miles on top of 80 days, man training days in the armed reserve.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of, you know, um, and and and it's very sadly, I think around that time my my first marriage sort of fell apart because I was hardly ever there.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: So quite reasonably my wife was kind of on my I may as well do my own thing.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then ended up at a law firm in Edinburgh.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, law firm, you know, one of the sort of biggest law firms in Scotland on the wealth management team.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: But um I was there and they were there for six years before I set up my business.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that was great because I'd done my um DFM certificate through the CII and the stockbreaking certificate as well.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So they brought me in and put me on the investment committee, um, which was all about, you know, it was there was there were model portfolio, advise model portfolios when I went in, but we sort of were closing those down as I joined the business.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then we went sort of to multi-asset funds.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I got the fun job of interviewing fund managers and you know, turning the screw and asking why they've done this and what they've done that, you know, and all the rest of it.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I also helped bring cash flow modeling into that business, which I was really pleased with, and moved them towards a more index approach.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of when I left the investment, uh, the investment, uh, the CIP.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I joined, there wasn't such a thing as a CIP, but when I left, the centralized investment proposition had a lot more sort of index options on it than it did when I joined, um, because I went anyone I joined.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it was uh, you know, it was a it was a that was a really good learning experience in how to run a business at scale.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now I wasn't running that business, but I was involved in key decisions and things and sitting around the tables.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a it was a really, really good introduction to what does good look like and you know, and how can you make things work in a financial planning business and what does bad look like.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I'm calling the firm bad, but you know, you you see things where you oh do it what I want to do it like that, and um, you know, when you're interacting with other firms as well.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so then that was start of 2021, you know, mid-COVID, go off, leave my very secure, very well-paid advice job, um, and set up my own business called Commonwealth Management.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, literally in um not this this room in the flat, but the room over there.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: There were two of us um at the start.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, uh a few clients sort of found me pretty quickly and and locked it and jumped in.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And but otherwise, yeah, we've been on the been on the roller coaster ever since.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for that career overview.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot to pick apart there.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why I felt like I was rambling quite a bit in the middle.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's fine, it's good.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: You've and this is okay because you've got that varied background.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I was having this conversation with a couple of I've had a couple of younger guests recently on the podcast.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying you're a young guy, no, you've got more experience.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: We've got younger guests, we know it's okay, Sam.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Got more experience than than than some that I've been speaking to.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And and the thing that comes up a lot with inexperienced uh individuals is this reluctance to go and get experience, right?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's this reluctance, this feeling that if I leave this job and go and go go to another company, for instance, that I'm being either disloyal to that firm or there's a lack of confidence to be to and the worry that if they go and leave and join somebody else and it's going to look bad on their career and and their career history, their CV, and no one won't want to hire them, right?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just kind of trying to reinforce in them at the moment that the financial planning profession is at a point where there aren't enough candidates in the profession.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: So my advice to anybody who's coming into the profession is get your qualifications as quickly as you can and get your experience as quickly as you can.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: And every time you've got a year's worth of experience under your belt, get out in the market and see what the market's doing.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: See if there's any opportunities out there where you could move somewhere else.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know loads of people that go from one company to another, to another, to another, and their salaries have gone up far quicker, as have their level of responsibility because they are seeing things from lots of different perspectives from lots of different companies.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's never had a negative detrimental fact on their business.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Now, you work self-employed, right?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: You went from being in a position to going self-employed thinking, right, I'm gonna have a crack at this, realizing that it was a hell of a lot harder from a BD perspective than you probably envisioned to actually happen.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: That was great learning experience to fail, if you like, or to not be a success as you thought you might be in that position, but it led you into another employed option where you then became part of an investment committee.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then you could see, couldn't you then, what being part of an admit it's funny?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, Jumpin', but it's funny on that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I applied for the job that I ended up in two jobs before.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when I went self-employed, I applied for the job at the law firm in the Perth office, and I didn't even get a callback.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then I did a year self-employed and a year with the DFM, and then the say the guy they had employed, it was an internal thing, he was leaving the business.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I reapplied and they were like, Oh, this is great, you've got this experience, and you know, and I joked with uh the sort of um the the uh senior manager in the business.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I said to him, You didn't even uh interview me or speak to me two years ago.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Of course I didn't, because you'd been number you said you'd been a trainee advisor slash power planner in a three, four-man firm.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Why, why do I, you know, with no business um you know experience, no experience of writing business consistently?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: You said, and you showed you've got guts to go out and go self-employed, and then you got taken in by a business that we know and respect, and you did a year there in what is a basically a sales role.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you've had two years of really good sales training, and alongside that, you've gone off and done your extra, you know, your certificates, and then you come to us and we're like, great, now we've actually got a senior role where we need somebody because somebody in the investment committee is leaving, as well as the guy in Perth.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, come into the job in Perth and do the role on the investment committee as well.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely absolutely.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: And people do, like you say, people do respect that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think what people do like to see on a CV as well, on a career background, is somebody that has, as you say, gone off and had a go at something.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: Whether they've failed or not, it doesn't matter, whether self-employment didn't work.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: But what people love to see is they do also like to see that somebody's been in a role where they are forced to go out and actually sell and actually have to do to develop business.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a that's one of the biggest strengths to have on a CV, I think, when going into a financial planning role.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you're going in to service existing clients, now there will be a lot of vacancies in the future where it's servicing existing clients due to the exiting of lots of advisors, you know, people buying up client banks, the distribution of those clients, the level of service required to each of those clients.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: So there will be these kind of hybrid or just serve servicing type roles for these trainee advisors.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: But anybody that's got that sales experience, and one of the best places to get sales experience, I think, if you're going to go into financial planning as well, is in like a DFM.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's in a product, is it's for one of the product providers, you know, where you're going out and you're having to sell what the product is to say brokers.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I think this is a really good background that people should look into if they are considering going down the financial planning route.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: You can go straight into financial planning, don't get me wrong.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and if you're in a firm and they've got great training and development and support and they're doing the right things with you, fantastic.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: But don't overlook good quality sales experience.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: And if you are a second careerist, listen to this right now, and you've got five, 10 years worth of experience in sales, come into financial planning, you're going to absolutely kill it because that's the hardest part, and that's the skill set that's lacking the most at the moment within the profession is people who've got relationship building skills.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really cool.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: So you went into a law firm then.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Did you enjoy working in the law firm?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Was that an interesting area to work?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I it's an idea.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, there's always a tension between financial planning and and legal uh in a law firm, you know, because the two departments think differently.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: They just they just do, and that's not being derogatory towards either side, but the the focus we found a lot of the time was on the transaction on the legal side, um, whereas ours was about the hopes, goals, aspirations, you know, and so it's so it's it's different, and and there's and there's relationships that needed to be managed, um, that need to be managed because uh, you know, in some in the in I heard, and not I'm not talking about my business here, but uh or the business I worked in, but you know, I heard horrendous things of people being, you know, uh having things said to them about, you know, well, you don't need a degree to do your job and things like that.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, um, I mean, I I mostly had a very happy time.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, there were a couple of the partners that were tricky to deal with, but you know what?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I can be tricky to deal with on my off days.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say that to people joining the business.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I'm sunshine and light 98% of the time, but it's really hard for in a business, and there's two percent of the time when I'm a bit I'm a bit grisly.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it's it's it's interesting dealing with the different departments.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to get on a lot with the executory team, and I used to do a lot of work with them, um, the family lawyers as well.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'd do a do a lot of work with them.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I did a few bit, a few divorce cases and things.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as I was going through my own divorce, which was quite which was quite interesting.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we talk about shared experiences.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it was.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really, I'm really pleased I did it.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me there was nowhere else that I would have got exposed to that seniority and that experience that quickly.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it was it was a great it was a great career move.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if I hadn't have, when it came to getting direct authorisation with the FCA, I was able to point to things that I'd done, the projects that I'd worked on in that business that helped convince the FCA I was a competent individual.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also great experience in respect culturally.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: So understanding culturally how law firms operate, how they work, and what their thoughts and feelings are around financial planning.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I've placed many a person into a law firm and into an accountancy firm.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: And some of the tricky things, tricky things we came up against was things like um, because accountants and solicitors traditionally it's fee-based, right?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like Bob by the hour, et cetera.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: When they then set up these financial planning operations within their practices, they're trying to build it.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's a kind of there is this divide between the legal team and the financial planners where they often see like the financial planners sort of earning too much money too quickly.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: Therefore, they tried to keep them into the structure of what it would be in legal, but it doesn't fit that that that way.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: They're often pressurized and put down more in those environments historically.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what it's like now.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: So you would tend to find financial advisors would be a bit less happier in those environments, and they felt a bit more downtrodden, like they were, they weren't considered as valuable as the solicitors.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, like you you're not really a profession, not really a professional, and you shouldn't be earning you know as much money as you should be earning.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: We should be capping you, even though you're bringing in a shitload of cash.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think look, I'm not, I'm not for a second going to complain about my paying conditions when I was at law firm because I was, you know, highest paid job I ever had, and I was I you know I didn't I didn't delete, and that's not being boastful, it's just they had a fair salary structure.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the and you know, I'll be brutally honest that we for employee advisors in our business, we it's a very similar salary structure because I sit and you know, I sat there and said, Well, I didn't have any worry about how I was paid there, you know.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it is, but then you know, I remember getting reproached, I got approached by a recruiter for a job in a law firm around the corner, and they said, Um, oh, you know, I'd like, you know, do you want to come and um talk talk to this law firm?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, not really.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, you know, well, I said, look, I'm I'm pretty happy.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Oh, you know, it's really good money.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable where I am.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, it seems a bit of a noise to move three doors down, and you know, and they said uh, but it was a good firm, it was a well-respected firm.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, look, you know, you can you can tell, you can send me the spec if you want, but I'm I'm pretty happy where I am.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um they showed me it, and it and the and the salary was not even two-thirds of what I was on.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I just said, Look, I'm really sorry, but why would and they said, Well, look, you'll you'll be working for X firm and it's really prestigious.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, my firm's prestigious, and they pay me proportion because I said, What happens if I bill more?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I, you know, because yeah, and and they said, Oh no, what happens if I build?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I told them I was billing where I was, and I said, What happens if I bill out there?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Oh, you'll get like a discretionary five grand bonus or whatever.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, This this sounds no.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and they started the conversation with, we're having trouble filling this role.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I ended it with, I can tell you why you're having trouble filling this role.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like you're not, you know, you're not paying enough.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're advertising a job where the the somebody would be paid remunerated fairly.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and yeah, it was it was so yeah, I still I still think that is somewhere uh in some places.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the self-employed opportunity I had was was part of uh I was working out of an accountant's office, and that was the same thing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: I used to in the accountant's office I used to get comments like, Oh, it's criminal what you guys earn.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: But is it is it though?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't I didn't necessarily think it is, depends what you're doing.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're charging, if you're charging five plus two and you know, and on a million quid, then yeah, it bloody is criminal.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, if you're charging what I would class as reasonable fees, which which we do and what what we were doing at the law firm, I mean, we were we were actually really competitive on fees on the law firm.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we charge it a little bit more now than I used to because I'd look at it and go, well, actually, I'd I think I think we're we're sort of closer to average.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but still, you know, they it was all about you know percentage of revenue and things like that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it, I think it's the right way to do it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to keep you've got to keep people incentivized.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, that's when people sit there and go, I could just do this myself, and they go off and set up their own firms.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I left to set up my own firm was because we had a big change in personal circumstances, you know.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my wife was was critically ill.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it meant that we wouldn't be having a family, it put a it put a time cock and things and it and it caused conversations like, well, what would we like to do to to make a difference?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: What you know, there's that there's the um oh, there's the life planning question, uh the George Kinder question of, you know, what would you do if you only had five years to live and and you had good health and then you were going to drop off a cliff, what would you do with the five years?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we had to ask that question, and we also had to ask the question of what happens if you've if you've got not very long at all.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we had to go through all those questions.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, the result was actually we we, I mean, you know, my surgeon and uh uh does research into uh disease called endometriosis.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I so that's her thing, and my thing was helping as many people as I could.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, actually, I want to do this my own way and and you know, and and on my own terms.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was you know, that was the reason I left.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't because I wasn't well paid or I felt you know badly treated.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just sort of actually there's a divergence here, and and if I don't scratch the itch and go off and do it, then then I'm gonna feel annoyed and then we'll sat there in resentment and thinking you could have done something different.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and so you okay, well, that's a big motivator, isn't it?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's a big motivator to ask that question and to actually be faced with that question as well, especially if your partner's also going through some illness that might, you know, is life-threatening.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you get to a stage where you're thinking, what's important in life and what do I want to do?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: And should I take some risks and should I do things?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing is you chose to set up your own business, right?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the conversations that we had when we first spoke was you did it to make a difference.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: So when you've set this business up and the term making a difference, so what does making a difference really mean to you when it comes to financial planning and running your own business?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: What is that sort of driving force?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, right from the beginning, I've been very sort of planning based.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I and as I said about the sort of 13,000 sell spreadsheet that Stephen built, um right from there, I were you know, I've been planning based all the way through.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, and I I think that I'm pretty good.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sound boastful, but I think I'm pretty good at doing the advice bit, and I've seen my advice make a difference.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've also seen bad what bad advice looks like.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've also seen people, in my view, ripped off and left in poorer situations than they hadn't have been, you know, if they hadn't taken any action.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I sort of sat there and went, well, look, I was looking after, pardon me, I was probably I think I was responsible for something like 240 clients at the law firm, of which sort of 150 were annual review clients.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it was me and an amazing power planner called Jen, um, who is now, she joined me as a trainee there and was amazing and now has gone on, and she's now the sort of power planning manager of that business.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, this multi-million pound business.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm, you know, that that to me is one part of making a difference.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've helped, uh, I mean, she's done it, don't get me wrong.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not taking, you know, but I helped coach her and helped um uh, you know, and and helped her have a it, I hope helped her have a good, really good start in a career.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but on the client side, I was sort of sat there going, well, look, I can really look after you know 100, 150 clients really well with gen support.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, if I go off and set up a business that does things in my way without wanting to be too hubristic, well, maybe we can help 200 clients, maybe we can help 500 clients, maybe we can help a thousand clients, maybe we can help 50,000 clients.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the number is, but I'm kind of, you know, why don't we just do that?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, what does it matter if I fail?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: I am still a employed advisor, I am still a good advisor, I will find employment.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be all right.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we were fortunate.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you know, there's that question of if I can't pay the mortgage, can you pick up the mortgage for a few months?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: But like you said, um the the uh there is a shortage of advisors in the market, and you know, every every week, even now I own my own business and quite publicly own my business, I get emails going, are you interested in an employee financial advisor?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh not from you guys, but I'm kind of like, no, I'm probably not.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, actually, thank you.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it seems a very expensive way of doing it.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, so it was that thing.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we we set up Carlton.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they and at the start there was sort of two of us and 30, 35, 40 families that we're looking after.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: And now we are by the end of August, when we've had some people settle in and clients drop in and things, we will be seven advisors, excluding me.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um 16 total headcount, and including a couple of sort of part-timers, and we'll be looking after just five a thousand clients.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's rapid growth.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's rapid growth, isn't it?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's really rapid growth.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it is.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's quite funny.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was chatting to someone, I was down in London a couple of weeks ago, and we work with a business called Saltus on part of the investment proposition.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was chatting to one of them, and he sort of said to me, He said, Well, 18 months ago when we were we we were sat in the meeting room talking about the business, you know, how many how many clients?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: He asked about AUM, but we don't talk about AUM publicly because as I famously said elsewhere, we don't measure willies.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um how many clients are we looking after?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you know, at that point we probably had about 100.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, how many have you got now?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, well, you know, by the time everything's settled, it's somewhere between nine 900 and a thousand.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you were just gonna be okay, well done.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's pretty it we're I'm having a moment.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think the end of August will be a moment of stop and reflection and just go right.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the minute we're in the thick of getting everyone bedded in, getting the new advisors bedding in, getting the new clients bedded in, making sure everyone's happy, making sure the processes are all fine.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then end of August, I'll probably sit down um with an alcoholic gen and tonic and go, all right, that that that was a summer.
• 41:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll go again.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, out of intro, I mean, that is rapid growth.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's you know, it's not common to come across that within financial planning.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the average size of a financial planning firm in the UK is about five.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: You've you've you've you've gone past those numbers.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, is that five RIs or five?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: Five employees, five in total.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: All right employees in total, yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: So the um so you've obviously got you've surpassed that.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: I know these can be often numbers of employees can often be vanitary matrix, but your AUM and your clients you've got families you're looking after reflects that the number of hires that you're making are also bringing in at bringing in assets or bringing assets with them, and assets under management is is is growing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now, that's a really hard thing to do.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things a lot of financial planners who run a business, A, are financial planning and B trying to grow a business, right?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's time consuming, it's hard.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: Recruitment can be difficult, finding the right person to come in can be difficult.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: What's the secret source that you've got then, Tom?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: What are you doing differently to everybody else?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there is no, it's very kindly we say there is no sort of secret source.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of luck in this.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of luck, and you've got to recognise when when you're lucky, because you've got to have luck to be good.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I played enough sport, I've seen enough people get injured, uh, you know, on on the rink and you know, uh in different settings and stuff.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to be lucky to be good.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think we so we've got that we've adopted the New Zealand rugby no dickheads rule, you know, and that applies to clients and employees.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that shines through in what we do, and it's very much and I'm and I'm honest with people.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I go, look, you join the business, we're so so some of those advisors are so all except one of those advisors is self-employed.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got the first employed advisor starting on the first of August.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely great guy.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Can't wait to announce it because he's a bit of a name, and I can't wait to, you know, I can't wait for him to come on us, put it on LinkedIn and things.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you know, I'm thrilled to have got him.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, really, really clever guy.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he's he's he's pretty well is really, I know he's really well thought of because the few people that we've talked to him about have gone like, oh, right, punchy, well done.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the other folk are there's a there's a couple of people who are sort of self employed and you know, at some point in the future we'll we'll exit.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then the other people are all people who are sort of it's part of a plan, uh you know, a transition plan, and that plan might be a year in one case out to sort of 10 years.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's all about and and the the problem that the sort of I don't like saying consolidator space it has because then it makes me feel like I'm a consolidator and I'm not.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: But when it has is this thing of we want assets and we want we want fees and actually we want to do as little as possible for the job.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it is.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of there's a lot of them that'll buy your book and they will so um there's a couple of clients that we've picked up recently their advisor quite blatantly sold them to a national consolidator um very upfront with them said this is how much recurring revenue I'm getting for you blah blah blah I've got a bit less for you because you're over 80 but and I was kind of like and they were telling me I was like Christ I mean I I admire it like fair play to it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they turned around and said oh you know we've got some money and we'd like to we'd like to do some stuff with our IS and and the and they said oh you've got to do it online.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that phone was taking a fee.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: They were taking an ongoing advice fee and they said you've got to do it online.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the client's like well we don't actually have online access because we're in our 80s and you know we live in the middle of nowhere in Scotland so we don't have great internet and they were like yeah well you've got to do it online through the app or okay so anyway um in in sweeps me I get invited to talk to them and I'm like yeah fine we'll do we you know we'll take on everything for you we'll look at it it turns out it's an expensive platform expensive platform crap portfolios so like we'll do we'll deal with it all um and tell me you mentioned the other money oh yeah we're selling the farm or parcels of land and it's kind of like right okay so this is so this this consolidator not only had these clients you know trying to do the ISIS actually if they'd have said oh tell me more they'd have got to do the whole estate planning piece and have got to do because basically these you know clients then sit there and go how do what do we do with this wealth sudden you know significant wealth that's coming in how do we plan with it um you know so we've added a whole load of value there and what we're saying to advisors is look if you join us do a um you know have a plan might be a year's a it might be a year's sort of transition it might be 10 years transition but there's different waypoints and at the point at which we both agree it's relevant we will hire the advisor that's going to replace you yeah or if there's three advisors in the business with a bit of space that you with a bit of capacity and you think that person could would do with do well with those clients and that list with those clients you can divvy the clients up and then you'll spend a year doing a handover and then you can leave and then we pay you out and then effectively they retire knowing that their clients are being really well looked after um we have security because the we know that advisor is a retired and he's done a big handover um with with the advisor whom he's been spending a lot of he's been spending a year so we might have had two meetings with a lot of his clients going this is this is Susan she's she's the best I've picked her to look after you she's going to do great and at the end and also they might have been dealing with us for five six years.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: So they are those advisors employed or are you sort of targeting advisors that are currently self-employed?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the advisors that join us so it's generally you know it's it's generally at the moment it's been self-employed advisors um because obviously if someone's employed we respect you know if someone you know so you know the employed guy who's coming with her who's going to join us you know it's very much we you know he's had the conversation with his employer about okay which clients is it okay and what kind you know and we don't want anyone to rip anyone off because I get pissed off if somebody left us and yeah you know broke covenants and things.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: But then again, you know so we're our our covenants are probably among the most generous in the business because we recognize you know we recognize what happens when people leave leave you know they're what to be yeah and I think as well if you are flexible on that and you are like you say generous on that I think people trust you more anyway because it's like they're making they're taking a risk aren't they let's say someone's self-employed and they are thinking about you're sort of targeting their the advisor who's thinking about their exit right so if I was setting up Tom if I was setting up my own financial planning practice of which I'm very interested in doing I don't want to be a financial advisor but I love the idea of building a business my mine would simply be I'm gonna go out and find 10 really good advisors that are in their 50s maybe early 50s and have got however long they want to work for right if they want to if they want to work until they're 65 they can work till they're 65.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: But the idea of it is to create a con a um a succession plan for them that is going to be worthwhile and the proposition itself will be modern the proposition itself will be um useful to their clients useful to their clients' families and it will be some coaching element in there and a new modern type approach and when the advisor comes and they think wow do you know what this is the type of practice that I wish I had or I wish I was part of or I'd feel comfortable passing my clients under and then underneath those 10 clients the idea is to have 10 trainees or 10 like um new advisors maybe like in their 30s or whatever and they're looking to establish themselves and I say look you know over this period of time we're gonna continue this model we're gonna complete rinse and repeat this model and the idea is that you've got one advisor that probably could service say two of the existing senior advisors that are looking to exit.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's about building the confidence between the two the transfer of those clients gradually because you want to try and get that commitment which will probably take about a year anyway to get the trust of that of that person before you even start to think about handing clients over and easing that process for them.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: My point I would get to at that point is like when do I just where do I choose or when do you choose when do you work out what a fair price is for the succession plan.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: So when they do decide to exit do you say it's flexible and you can have an amount now you can have an amount another a bit further down the line it's going to be four times do you have a set figure?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: How are you working all of that so there's a spreadsheet spreadsheet for everything in life and there's a spread there's a spreadsheet that has sort of you know factors around so um recurring revenue uh where where it is and so percentage that's you know on platform because for us i it's a it's a noise if a load of clients join us that have got you know all offshore bonds with diff 25 different providers or something you know to use an extreme example and nothing you know the cost of servicing that business is quite difficult whereas if we've got um everybody on a platform you know it doesn't have to necessarily have to be one platform um everybody on a platform that you know we can access throughout back office that interacts well um that has that efficiency of modern procedure um that's that's a sort of good score so we have it's almost like you my father used to talk me through the spreadsheets for tendering for big super highway contracts you've got your quality score and your price score so the quality score is you know where's where are the clients assets the client ages how long have they been engaged with the business um you know what type of business have they done is it full full fat cash flow modeling and things like this and then there's the sort of you know off that there's there's a price score you look at the you look at the um the revenue and then you know it at down at the bottom it spits out a number so we just cover bits and yeah so we can and we the price is at the price at the time of transition.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you know so I was talking to someone and I was making the point to them that yeah one of the people has joined they're pretty sick of running their own business.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was making the point to them well if you join us and we take on all the admin and the power planning and all the the stuff about you being away from you being authorized um directly authorized well you could actually probably grow the business and we're talking about a number here but the number when you get over there because the client because his clients the average age of his clients is very low it's still not going to be past a point because you know once we get over 70 then into 80 there's sort of different numbers multiples that come into play um you're still going to be at a point where your clients uh your average age is well below 70 but you'll have grown the value of the book so actually you'll be getting much more than the the pounds and pence amount that we're talking about now and you'll have saved some hassle on the way and it was quite interesting watching that ah right great I'm in.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: And do you find that they tend to respond well more to a smaller business that's consolidating and than say a large consolidator like yeah I mean we're we're never going to be uh we're never gonna be a true potential yeah we're gonna be a fairstone or something you know we are we will always have a yes we want to get to big scale I make no secret about that but more than anything we want to be first off we want to be Edinburgh and sort of um the the the central belt's best financial advice practice we want to be you know we we want to be the financial advice practice that when people are thinking about you know who is not that people sit around going who is the best financial advice practice in Edinburgh when the central belt apart from other financial advisors but they go oh car wealth great business yeah you know I I'd work with them either as a client or as an employee.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the the number one aim is let's get there let's get our quality score up let's get known for having really robust processes for treating clients really really well and clients really really enjoying it and then you know we can we can think about scaling but you know significantly but it's yeah every you know a few people have said to me you know the the difference is they're not gonna be a number they're not gonna be on a balance sheet with us.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah it's keeping it personal isn't it and I think you know a they've got a relationship with their clients they have a loyalty to their clients to pass them on to somebody that's they're just not sailing down the river because I suppose there is an element of look yeah you are going to get an exit value yes you've built some you've built a business that has a value and when you exit you want to try and get a sale value that's that's those that's attractive right that's why we build these businesses but at the same time you don't want to just dump them with somebody who's going to treat them like a number and give them a shit service.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah exactly that's right that's the whole thing that that there we we you know it's that it's that thing of you we're not just gonna sell people at the river and leave them and say we're we are building a load of online engagement tools and we're building a whole line of uh load of tech around that yeah we're gonna turn around someone and say you don't have an advisor anymore go on the app and do your do your stuff yourself because some people can't do their own financial planning on an app you know the type of clients that we can't deal with that we deal with can't do that.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah so yeah are you doing an are you are you scaling nationally or are you keeping it local?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we we interesting we've got a couple of conversations going on out with Scotland and and I have you know personal reasons I don't quite like an excuse to go to Yorkshire more because all my family's in Yorkshire yeah so it'd be nice to have it have an office down that way and a reason to go down there and see advisors and sp and spend a bit of time down there.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: We've also we came really close to doing a deal in London actually um which would have been fun um but yeah we we are constant you know if the never say never if the right thing comes up that be like an acquisition deal or taking on of an advisor self-employee with the hope of then them you know buying them out when they're further down the line with the so we actually we actually made an offer to a guy who is a sort of a bit of an advisor rock star and and we said to him look you know we'd love to have you as part of the business why don't we do something whereby we support you um we support you building the brand and an office down south and you are the sort of London partner.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: But he but he he felt you know he had a load of options and uh he got the opportunity to do it slightly differently and you know best luck to him and because you've all got to do and I think I think he wanted to own all of something rather than part of something because we sort of said you know we'll structure it in a way that you own part of that office.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: So would they have been would they have been more of an early early on in their career as opposed to exit to close to close they're sort of similar to me.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the tricky part that's almost like a merger isn't it because so there's there's there's there they're two different personality types because they're two not personality types but they're two different stages of their career.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: One is thinking about exit and one is thinking about developing and building so they're at that point where they've got to look for the best option for them.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: They either go alone or they partner with somebody else and they you know it's uh the beauty parade I think on either side is still quite high.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: You've still got lots of people that want to buy but I think at the buying stage of the exiting side is one based on trust.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: You you come across as trustworthy, honest.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think people like that.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: When it's the ambition side and someone's like they're driven by what how much money has someone got in the bank?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: What are they going to pump into me?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: Where are they now with their technology?
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: How far along are they?
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: When they say they can help me grow it where's the evidence to suggest they can help me grow it so they're looking for more evidence based and it takes a bit more time on a merge I think than it does on saying an exit.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely it's a trickier one.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: Very interesting.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: So you also when you set this business up one of the things that you did was take on non-executive directors really quickly.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me us a little bit about that.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_03: Why did you take on non-executive directors really quickly when you started your business and what benefit have you had from it?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean so right from the start I knew where you know I knew the direction of travel I wanted I knew that I didn't want to be sort of just working out of the bedroom in the back bedroom.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah I'm not being derogatory you know there's a lot of one man bands out there making a hell of a lot more money than me you know because I'm you know everything is going back into the business and you know the business is my number one priority.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um but I knew I wanted to I wanted to grow a business of consequence um and I don't know you know I I don't know everything and I don't know why I don't know and so for instance the first thing we did was bring on a guy called Gary Dale who's got you know he can be a controversial figure.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some people like him some people don't like him it's fine.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know but I refere you know it's quite funny I referenced him extensively even though I've known him for years and I said to someone you know what would you think what a client who knows him very well so what would you say if I said I was going to bring Gary into the business and he said I'd tell you that not everybody will like him but actually is there a cleverer man when it comes to distribution of financial services?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly not therefore if you what do you want him to do in the business and I said well help with the distribution and he said well there you go what what else would you do?
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we we have a service and I would like as many people and some people don't like the word distribution and I think and I get the connotation when it's a life company wanting us to distribute their products but I have a service that I would like many people to benefit from I am crap at sales I am crap at the mass market sort of you were the the mass bit of the sales and the marketing piece.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore we brought someone in who's spent his whole career he's the former head of distribution at AJ Bell he's been senior you know a product manager at Credential he was head of um UK structured product sales for Investec private bank so and he was at a point where he just left AJ Bell and sort of went out for lunch with me and said you know what should I do?
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we chatted and chatted and chatted and I said well why don't you come and be an onexec for us.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say like distribution for you that's getting your service in front of clients is it yeah so it's professional connections it's it's helping with a marketing plan it's you know it's charming it's going out and and meeting um you know lawyers accountants um you know lots of different businesses who have clients in common with us and doing that because these relationships take time to nurture and you know and I don't have time to do that and run the business and look after clients.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that was the bit that he was doing.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: So when you take on a non-executive director do you then you don't pay them a salary as such well you can pay them a salary can you you pay them like a non-executive director salary.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the difference between being a director in the business and being a non-executive director what's the difference in respect of shareholding then so well you can so we have so the non-execs that we have in the business and are bringing into the business have a shareholding.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I so I'm too trying to pay them um essentially um so you know my view is we should all want to see the business succeed so effectively you become a NED you you receive a bit of equity um and then we're all you know that that that's what that's what you get.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah it's um so all of them um so all of them have some equity and that way we're all aligned.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: We all want the business to you know the the easiest way to have a financial planning business fall over is not to have good behaviors and good client outcomes.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we all want the compliance to be right we all want good client outcomes and we all want to see the business grow.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: When we look at the desk the distribution side and the impact that he's had on the business has it had a positive impact through the professional connections and opening up opportunities and bringing clients to you?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah absolutely absolutely yeah yeah I mean it's it's um I could quantify I've not looked at it in terms of I've not looked at the spreadsheet I mean we have a spreadsheet so I'm big on MI so we have a spreadsheet it's kind of these are relationships that Gary manages these are the inquiries that we've had these are the ones that have converted to business or rather these are the ones that have seen that we've then met after speaking to them and then these are the ones that have converted to business and are now clients uh and it's a you know it's a number that I am more than happy with.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like sometimes when you have a non-executive director and if say for example you feel they don't pull their weight do you feel uncomfortable in approaching them and talking to them about the level of contribution to the business or have you not had that problem?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: Not that problem.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we've had that you say we've got Gary we've got uh another uh uh amazing woman called Laura Bruce who's a non-exec as well and I met her when she was so I did a UK government funded um university course short course called Help to grow and she was my mentor on there and I had 10 um mentoring sessions with her as part of it and at the end of that I said look you know I'd really like to carry on working together this has had an immediate impact on the an impact on the business already how can we um how can we do this and she said well you know you can either pay me my hourly rate or you can come up with something else and I said well why don't you why don't you become an on exec and then um then be more in the business and and you know both of them have I've got more than I should outcome you know there's bits that were you know we've joked in the past and they've said this isn't really Ned stuff anymore this is like this is like actual employee stuff but we all want the business to do well so we'll do it you know and and and with a Ned for example you make an agreement for is there like oh you're going to dedicate so many hours to the business or is there an is there a a commitment to being part of like a director's meeting or something like that.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: How do you quantify what it is they actually do so we've got we have at the moment we have board meetings monthly because you know as you said we're rapid we're rapid growth if you left it quarterly it'd be a completely different business by the time we have the in-between meetings um you know I'm famous for walking out walking out of one meeting and a week later pulling up and going we need to have another meeting because um we've been approached by a really good advisor that wants to join us.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't meet for a quarter and God it'd be uh yeah anyway so we have monthly board meetings which which were uh sort of 100% attendance um and then generally I will speak to Gary and Laura independently sort of probably once or twice a week on top of that.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know Laura's great on the management accounts and so I've been keeping you know pretty good management accounts and forecasts and then she got hold of it.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: So her day job is working for um it's a Scottish debt fund um and she so she does investment analysis all the time um and arranges debt funding.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you know you send her a set of management accounts and they come back in you know perfect order and looking very sensible.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: So she's great on the detail and so frequently if I'm thinking about doing something I'll ring her up and say you know what about this?
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do we rec what do we reckon and I'll get an hour on the phone with her.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it's that yeah so it's a very valuable it's very valuable to have this non-executive team and I think I'm I'm very I don't have that you know I've got myself my fellow owner business owner and then I've got a director within the business.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_03: Externally I don't have anybody nobody to bounce my ideas off of nobody who's been there done it got the t-shirt who can give me some advice and I it's definitely something that I think a within my recruitment business I I need it now I need this this kind of mentor guide if you like or someone I can lean into with a level of expertise that I don't have and what I'm looking for is is foresight.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm looking for somebody who's built and sold a business who can look at my business and say Sam you need to add this to it or you need to focus your energy on this area or this area is doing really well but you need to just to give me those prop prods and pointers and I I and I'm very interested in this non-executive director side and I think if more people understood how to approach nets and how to structure it in the right way I think people would probably benefit from it hugely but and it can be done in the early stages of a business as well because you're giving up equity as opposed to giving them a salary right and yeah and I mean that was quite risky as well because like giving or giving up equity early on is uh a lot of people say God you shouldn't do that.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: But actually you know I don't I don't I'm I'm not in this yes I hope to at some stage when I you know should I exit the business which might be to an employee ownership trust it might be to you know uh a third party or whatever uh I hope to be comfortable but actually I don't need to I don't I'm I'm now I'm not apparently having children so I don't need to leave anything to anyone.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: So actually what does it matter if and a Ned gets a percentage point or two of equity and Then that makes a material difference to their life and their contribution to the business is recognized.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: And likewise, if we keep going the way we're going, we'll probably do some growth shares for, you know, in share safe schemes and things like that at appropriate times.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we want we want the people who are in the business every day to get some sort of benefit from the from the growth as well.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um what would you say, what would you say is your sort of one area of the business at the moment that you would want to improve upon?
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: So an area you feel that if you had a level of expertise, join your business right now, that it would catapult your business forward.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, so we've got another Ned joining, um, who we can't name yet for legal reasons, not because they're in court due soon or anything, but just because we're doing finalizing the paperwork and um and the things have to be done in a certain order um for equity and things like that.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: But they uh you know, so there's the the BD and the professional connections bit that Gary does extremely well, but then there's the um a sort of wider marketing piece and PR piece.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've we've got someone coming in who we're who we're really, really excited about um who will help on that front.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's it's strengthening that bit.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the the being able to you know get push a message out to say to people, because now we spent the first couple of years working on systems and getting systems right and things like this.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we didn't actively seek new business.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: There was enough there to pay the bills, and we we were kind of look, let's get things right before we because we all, you know, as we said, the the growth we're seeing now is is slightly terrifying.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: So but we and and things still the systems still aren't perfect now, but we're but we're good enough to be able to do this.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: And now, and they will be nothing is ever perfect, but they'll be as closest as they can be soon.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the new person coming in will help us help us get the message out that we're here and we're you know able to help.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: So structuring the branding, the marketing, the positioning of it from uh an attract talent attraction perspective.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_03: But again, so what tick in the box in respect of A, hopefully more clients see you as more of a I don't know, an accessible type of service, easy to use, but also the other advisors start to hear more about you and think about potentially joining your business, that kind of thinking.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: So actually more um more the uh more the sort of first one about organic growth.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we so we're in a really good place with the the kind of advisors joining us, um, touch wood.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: So Gary, the other bit that Gary does is I mean, you know, Gary spent a career in in distribution for for investment businesses.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, he quite often will say he'll get a phone call and somebody, oh, so and so's thinking about selling the business, you should give them a ring, you know.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we and four of the advisors in the business have come because of Gary's contact.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we're okay on the that front.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then what we're actually finding is we've had two referrals from the first advisor that joined the business.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so he's like, This is actually really good.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm enjoying working here, these are good guys, and he's referred two other people to us who we're now looking at joining sort of back end of next year.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really that organic growth because we've got we seem to be on a good track with the with the people joining the acquisition piece, but actually you need to balance that with organic growth because otherwise you end up taking on a load of debt to buy these businesses, and then effectively your business becomes worth the same amount uh of the debt because you've just bought, you know what I mean, if you've not got any organic growth as well.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're making sure we keep the organic growth ratcheting up as well.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think really smart move with the non-executive director from the distribution side for that very reason.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's some really talented, well connected BDs and things that work for the product providers that if they did step away from that or they were retiring and they've been doing it for years, their black books are huge.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and they and they and they've built, they've built advocate relationships, they've built strong relationships with those people.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_03: And if all of a sudden they can they can turn around and they know who's got assets under management, they know who's closing in on retirement, they know the personalities because they've dealt with them day in, day out for years.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a really smart move to bring on those types of people as non-executive directors.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_03: I love this approach of non-executive directors, something I want to do, and I just don't, I haven't done it.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's something that I want to eventually end up being as well.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's like if I either set up my own financial planning business and I partner with a couple of financial advisors and we build a business, and my skills and expertise is the marketing, branding, recruitment piece and the academy side.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's what my strength is, that's what I have, and that's a hard part of building a business, right?
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's talent attraction.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Or I quite simply align myself to a financial planning business as a non-executive director and bring that skill set along for a for an equity or for something and be a part of the growth of that business.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because there isn't a conflict, there isn't a conflict of interest if you're honest and upfront about it.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it's yeah, it's it's it's an interesting avenue.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I don't, you know, I I could think a lot of financial planning businesses that are smaller like yours could benefit hugely from doing the thing that you've done.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a confidence thing.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_03: You've done it confidently by giving up equity.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I like your approach.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, you've got to be in it to win it, right?
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you've you you've got to surround yourself with those experts, those great people, because you you you you've got the self-awareness to recognise that your skill set doesn't lie in going out and winning those, and you can't do everything, you know?
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_03: You can't do everything, it kills you.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_03: It blows your brains out after a while.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's so difficult to do everything.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, and I think the ex knock on non-executive director route is a really good way to get an expert on board um without the need of having to employ him, especially if you can do the equity side of it.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: And what's equity if you're gonna make a load of money in the end anyway?
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that I think that is there, you know, money is not my primary driver for this, and that and that I think I think that's the other thing that sort of shines through when I've been to people.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, there's a there's a difference, but there's little difference to me between this much money and that much money, you know.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, and that's you know, I um I came from a very modest background in a you know mining village in Yorkshire.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that I I know people see me on Twitter and things and think I'm this giant Posho, but genuinely I don't come from much.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's that thing of a just if we can just do a bit of good.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: This this profession's amazing because if you do the right things and help people, you'll be well remunerated for it and they will get a load of value from it.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_00: The client will be happy, you will be happy, and you don't actually have to charge astronomical fees, you don't have to tear the arse out of it, you don't have to treat people badly.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: It goes back to that no dickheads thing.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you just treat people as you would want your grandmother or mother to be treated, they will do, they will get value and benefit from your advice, you will be fairly remunerated, and you know, that's fine.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's all go to the pub and you know.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there is a, you know, there is definitely 100% a market out there that needs to be serviced.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's a shitload of people, a shitload of clients that are going to need financial advice, even more so over the next 10 to 15 years.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there is a distinct lack of financial advisors, there's a whole load of them exiting out of the industry and not enough of them coming in.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_03: So the one thing is if you're in the game now, right, and you can offer a fantastic, affordable service that's transparent, clear, and easy to do business with, you've got the millions of people to give advice to.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing stopping you from from building a fantastic business at value as well.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to be stitching people up or ripping them off, do you?
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can be fair.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_03: And as long as you build it and grow it, and I think that fairness and and transparency and honesty there, and I think the people coming into the profession are more so than ever aware of honesty, transparency, value, um, then I think you're on to a winner.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, Tom, I'm gonna sort of draw it to an end there because we've been talking for quite some time, and um, you know, you we we I know you've got another meeting after this.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, listen, it's been a real pleasure talking to you.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I obviously wish you all the best with your business.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're looking for a non-executive director on the recruitment side, just uh give me a shout.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_03: Give me a shout.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_03: But listen, thank you so much for your time, Tom.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Really appreciate talking to you.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, thanks for having me, Sam.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, thanks very much.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have a good one.