Latest / ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women / 157 // How to Heal from Narcissism & Emotional Abuse, with Katie McKenna

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157 // How to Heal from Narcissism & Emotional Abuse, with Katie McKenna · ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women

• 0:00
  Hey friends, welcome to the ADHD with Confidence podcast.
• 0:03
  I'm your host, Kelsey Spronk, and today I am so incredibly honored to be joined by Katie McKenna.
• 0:10
  She is an accredited psychotherapist, a co-author of the book that we're going
• 0:14
  to talk about today, creator of The Calm Method, which we will hopefully talk
• 0:18
  about in a future episode, and I am so excited to have her here.
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  She also has a podcast called Beyond Survival that you can check out as well.
• 0:26
  Katie, thanks for being here. You're very welcome. It's great to be here.
• 0:30
  So I wanted to start off with a
• 0:33
  little bit more about you so that my listeners can get to know you a bit.
• 0:37
  So tell us about you and any connections you have personally and professionally with ADHD. Okay.
• 0:43
  Yeah, sure. So I always suspected that I had ADHD, but was so used to just getting
• 0:50
  on with things that I didn't really give it much heed until I'm actually,
• 0:55
  I'm a parent of four myself.
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  And so when with my oldest two, actually, it was the eldest when I was seeing
• 1:04
  what I thought may have been ADHD with him. And then I was doubting it and I
• 1:07
  was thinking he wasn't so bad.
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  And then when we actually got him through the process of being diagnosed,
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  because obviously, you know, that the two sides, like the attention deficit
• 1:16
  and the hyperactive, we were taking so many yeses for him.
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  But then there was so many no's and I was going, oh my God, that's my other
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  son. Like, and I actually thought we're getting the wrong child diagnosed here.
• 1:27
  And my first did predominantly, he was hyperactive. But through all the no's,
• 1:32
  I actually don't know if I would have identified my
• 1:35
  other son because he's so laid back so easygoing and I don't know if I ever
• 1:40
  would have connected that with him so
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  I did and then through him really discovered my own and then I was like oh yeah
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  so I'm more inattentive and that's what shows up there
• 1:51
  and so very recently in the last couple of months got my own diagnosis and then
• 1:56
  my own journey with medication which
• 1:58
  has just been a game changer I actually have an episode on it on my own podcast
• 2:02
  on Beyond Survival where I talk about the difference that it's made for me and me really.
• 2:08
  Really not having a clue how it could change when they were asking me about medication.
• 2:12
  I was saying, are you telling me that I might just be able to do things and
• 2:16
  I don't have to sit and wait? I talked about, you know, I remember having a
• 2:20
  really important presentation and I had set out like six hours that day to do
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  it. I was doing it at 3 p.m.
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  And because I knew that I would only do it last minute, I knew there was no
• 2:30
  point doing So I was like, you know, I'm working with this. This is before I
• 2:33
  was diagnosed. So already I had like strategies, if you will, in place.
• 2:38
  But that day in particular, I remember sitting and it was 12 o'clock had come
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  and I hadn't done anything. Now I knew all the information, but I just had to
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  get it down in a presentation.
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  I messaged a friend of mine and I was like, okay, this, I need to kick up the
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  arse. Like this is accountability. I need to do something.
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  And I put my phone away and I sat for another hour. And then it was at one o'clock.
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  I had two hours left and I whipped it out.
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  And it was a good job. I'm obviously able to speak. This is what I do.
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  But then the presentation, you know, it could have been better had I planned it earlier.
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  And now what I really realize with the medication is that I don't have to wait
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  for the dopamine to kick in.
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  I can actually plan a day and you know as a psychotherapist all my work is client-based
• 3:24
  so it's appointment-based and so I have no problem on those days.
• 3:27
  I can show up, I can see clients but it's the days that I'm working on my podcast
• 3:32
  or I'm sending out invoices or There, when I was writing the CAM method and doing all these things,
• 3:37
  that work, I would have to wait until the dopamine hit, which then would generally
• 3:42
  be last minute, put a lot of pressure on me.
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  And the medication now that I can plan a day and then fulfill and do the things
• 3:51
  in that day with, I want to say, a relative ease.
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  I used to call it like it was like a handbrake when I couldn't do stuff.
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  And then I remember hearing somebody describe it as an invisible wall and that
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  those two analogies really fit.
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  And now it's like the handbrake is down or that invisible wall is gone.
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  And still, there's still some things I might want to do, but I'm not blocked.
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  I can hold on to the thought long enough to do it.
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  And that's incredible that you know even that early in that you found a medication
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  that has worked well for you that's allowed you like you said to you know put
• 4:28
  the handbrake down get rid of that wall plan out your day and I and I definitely
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  agree on those days where,
• 4:34
  there is a lot of freedom and flexibility there's not that sense of urgency
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  that's going to increase dopamine and you know help us with our motivation I
• 4:43
  was curious as well When you got that diagnosis,
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  what was that like for you?
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  I was expecting it. I would have been surprised if I didn't get it.
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  But I was surprised that I was told on the same day. So obviously I had loads
• 5:02
  of forms to fill out and we did all those things. And then I went in for,
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  I think it was like a two and a half hour assessment.
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  And so they had my forms. They were there with me through the assessment.
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  And then at the end, I had to go out and fill out a separate form.
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  And when I come back in, the psychologist was there with another person who
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  was there through the whole time. And he said, okay, so it's very clear you've ADHD.
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  And I was like, really? And he said, yeah, you seem surprised,
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  are you? And I was like, I'm just surprised that you can tell me now.
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  I thought you'd have to go and, you know, do up all the forms.
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  And he, like, he laughed a wee bit and he went, no, it's very obvious.
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  And at that time I asked about, oh, am I predominantly inattentive or hyperactive?
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  And he went, no, that's what I'm going to have to figure out.
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  And that's what I'm going to come back to you with when I do the report.
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  And he went, but it's clear you have it. And I was surprised that it was.
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  And when I say that clear, I know I'd done all the forms. I know he'd been with
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  me for two and a half hours.
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  But I didn't think that maybe I would have been as high.
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  I thought it, you know, maybe would come down to the wire or.
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  So that's what was surprising for me.
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  Absolutely. And so when you did find out, did they say predominantly inattentive?
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  Predominantly inattentive, combined predominantly inattentive, yeah.
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  And the medication, I remember seeing people on social media taking one tablet
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  and then being like, oh my God, my mouth has just changed.
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  The noise has stopped. And that wasn't my experience. It was over weeks,
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  like a good few weeks, like trying different things to, I mean,
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  the first medication that I took and it was a low dose, but I found no difference.
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  And I was desperately aware to try and go, oh, was that easier?
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  Was that a difference? Like, really watch it. And I was like,
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  no, I don't think. And then going, maybe do I not really then have ADHD?
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  And then it was when they increased it and then even again. And I was like, ah.
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  And the thing that I find amazing with the medication is on one hand,
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  it's like amazing and life changing.
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  And then on the other hand, it's actually really mundane and boring.
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  It just means that I can do mundane things and plan to do the mundane things.
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  Normally loads of stuff would pile up and I'd get stuff done.
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  That's just kind of how I live and I've been used to it.
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  So now things are more organized and it's really only now that I see how chaotic
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  I was before that's something that I wouldn't have related to my husband would have told me I was.
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  And I was like no like that's not that's not it so yeah I just want to say that
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  with medication because I you know I know that I have a lot of clients then with ADHD,
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  you know when I think of ADHD with trauma That's highly likely that if you have
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  ADHD in a neurotypical world where you're supposed to conform,
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  obviously the book then is about what happens at home.
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  But when you have this, there's going to be trauma. So I deal obviously with
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  a lot of ADHD clients and for anybody that does start with medication,
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  obviously that's a personal choice.
• 8:07
  Yeah, to have, you know, it's really healthy to have hope, but also realistic
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  hope that this might take a couple of weeks. You might have to go back and to
• 8:15
  persist to get the proper medication that works for you.
• 8:21
  Yeah, thank you for sharing that honestly as well. I know for me,
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  I've tried several medications and, you know, sometimes it felt like it made a bit of a difference.
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  And then I think I needed to play around with dosage. I had some bad experiences
• 8:35
  with some, but just understanding that it's not, you know, the first time that
• 8:39
  you try it, that you have that experience, that's probably a little bit more rare for people.
• 8:45
  I did want to get into here, and we can tie things into ADHD,
• 8:49
  into your story as well, but I wanted to talk about the book that you co-authored
• 8:53
  called You're Not the Problem, The Impact of Narcissism and Emotional Abuse and How to Heal.
• 9:00
  First, I have to say, I started reading this a few weeks ago,
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  and then over the weekend, I knew our interview was coming up,
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  so I read the rest of it, and it was an incredible, incredible resource.
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  There were so many times, I mean, I probably could have read it faster,
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  but I was highlighting too many sections, so I needed a little bit of time for that.
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  But as far as this book, talking about narcissism, can you explain for us what
• 9:28
  is narcissism, and what should we look out for?
• 9:33
  I can, absolutely. Maybe if I even just start before that, when we're talking about ADHD,
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  and people thinking this is just who I am, when somebody grows up in a dysfunctional
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  or emotionally abusive or narcissistic family,
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  this is all they have ever known. This is their normal.
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  And when we're going to talk about narcissism, I'm going to talk about then
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  the family system that enables that because people look out for that one person
• 10:00
  and there typically is, But there's a whole system
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  that normalizes this, that sweeps problems under the rug, that says,
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  oh, you know, that's just your mother, that's just your father,
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  you know what they're like.
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  Just apologize, just be the bigger person, just do the thing.
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  And so it's all this language that then fills into and enables the system.
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  But when we're talking about somebody that is that has NPD narcissistic personality disorder.
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  You're talking about that there's nine different criteria and the main five is grandiosity
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  so that's that the whole world revolves around them and I'm going to keep bringing
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  this back to the narcissistic parent because that is what the book is on so
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  you'll hear people saying oh,
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  you know all my mother thinks about is herself you know what the whole world
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  revolves around her it's just always about her. She never considers me.
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  Or that's my father. The whole world revolves around him. You know,
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  he can't stop talking about himself. He's not interested in anybody else.
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  He only phones you when he's looking for something. It's all about him.
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  And so that's the grandiosity. And that exists by itself, that trait.
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  So what that means is if they lived on a desert island, that grandiosity is still there.
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  Think of the sun would exist and the earth and all the different planets revolve around it.
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  And that's what the narcissist believes, that this is Everybody should revolve
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  around and meet my needs.
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  And so another trait then is entitlement. And that is that, that I am entitled
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  to anything from you. So if this is the child, the narcissistic parent would
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  be entitled to their time.
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  Well, why won't you run me to the shop? Like, what else have you better to do? Like, prioritize me.
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  If you have money, they will feel entitled to your money.
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  They will feel entitled to if you have a skill that they want.
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  Why wouldn't you do that for me? I'm your mother. Why wouldn't you do that for me? I'm your father.
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  They feel so entitled and they will exploit whatever it is they need from you
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  of course they're going to do this in their other relationships as well but
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  in predominantly obviously because I'm talking about the parent-child relationship
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  so exploitative so the,
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  kids typically will go out from a young age and be be working and will be giving
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  their parents money and this is,
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  beyond developmentally appropriate this is in a,
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  to really in any way fulfill the narcissist lifestyle.
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  Of course, if there is money in abundance, a lot of narcissists can control money with their kids.
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  You know, I'll only do this for you if you do. Why? So it's transactional.
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  And if you in any way upset me, I'm going to cut off this support.
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  As well, they have a lack of awareness. They are not, you know,
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  they do not have the depth of awareness to know the deeper reason why they're
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  doing A plus B, but they know if they do B, it will get C.
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  They know that their behaviors, that it's going to get the result that they want.
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  They also use motivational empathy. And this, a lot of people know motivational
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  empathy as guilt-tripping or pulling on your heartstrings.
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  So let's say the example was if you had something that maybe a narcissistic mother wanted.
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  Let's say you come in with a new cardigan and it will be, oh,
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  that cardigan's lovely. Oh, it's well for you being able to buy that.
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  I wish I could get something like that. I have nothing.
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  I could never do that. And I'm just going, no, don't you worry about it.
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  You know, you go on. Don't you worry about it. You take that.
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  No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm fine.
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  And it's eliciting guilt. It's trying to bring up guilt in you and empathy to
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  pull on those heartstrings that you're going to do it. So the narcissistic parent
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  will motivate your empathy for their own gain.
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  And that's the biggest thing. This is all about their own gain.
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  So yeah, the grandiosity, entitlement, exploitation, lack of self-awareness,
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  and motivational empathy. They're the five main traits.
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  And in the book, and I can go on if you want, we break them down into the different
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  categories of parent that we then see.
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  Right. And something that I found, I want to look at how it affects the child
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  or the adult child as well so that people can listen for some of those clues.
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  Something that I found interesting was that There was the two representations
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  of overt and then covert, where it's, you know, it's really obvious saying,
• 14:20
  hey, yes, I am better than you or I do deserve this versus that one that you just described there,
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  which can be, and I know that was motivational empathy, but can be so powerful.
• 14:30
  Subtle, I guess. And I think that was really interesting to see the two sides of grandiosity as well.
• 14:36
  What was that one? I think you called it the black catter.
• 14:40
  Yeah. So if you're in terms of overt and covert, that's a really good descriptor.
• 14:44
  And we talk about it in the book, although they've moved away from that linear
• 14:48
  description because they're all actually meeting these needs.
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  But the overt narcissist, this is the, you know, if you've been to 10 Arif.
• 14:56
  I've been to Leavenerif. No matter what you did, I can one-upmanship.
• 15:00
  Yeah, so it's the black catter. My black cat is blacker than yours.
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  If you had a pain in your head, I have a migraine. If you had surgery,
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  I had worse surgery than you and I needed a longer recovery.
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  Like it's a one-upmanship.
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  And that overtness is bigger and better. The sort of peacock,
• 15:16
  you know, standing in the bar, buying all the drinks, the big showmanship.
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  The person that, you know, they read one Wikipedia page and they're the expert.
• 15:24
  They know more than the doctor. I know better than anyone. I know more than anyone.
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  And they can be very charming, the overt narcissist.
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  And it can be very intoxicating for somebody that actually grew up in dysfunction
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  to have this sort of maybe even larger than life charming person then bestow attention upon you.
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  So that's the more overt traits. And then we have the more covert,
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  which is the more vulnerable narcissist, the more victim mindset narcissist,
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  the more poor me and the more helpless narcissist that people can
• 15:57
  really, again, with this empathy, get sucked into wanting to help them and not
• 16:02
  realize that they're being exploited.
• 16:06
  Yeah. And this is, if anyone's listening, I highly recommend reading this book.
• 16:10
  There is so much in here and there's so much to recognize.
• 16:13
  I really appreciate too, and we can talk about this later, but at the end,
• 16:17
  how you break it down of how you can start the healing process and how you can get to know yourself.
• 16:23
  But before we get to that part, I wanted to understand how does growing up with
• 16:28
  a narcissistic parent, how does that affect the child and then the adult child?
• 16:36
  It's huge. I'm sure you and maybe your listeners are aware. I think it's Dr.
• 16:40
  Russell Barkley when he's talking about that an ADHD child will have approximately
• 16:45
  20,000 criticisms in their life.
• 16:48
  Funny, the podcast, the episode that I talk on my podcast on Beyond Survival
• 16:53
  about ADHD, I have a doctor on, Dr.
• 16:56
  Sarah Carthy, and she's talking about her daughter. she's a GP and she's talking
• 17:00
  about her daughter and not recognizing the signs of ADHD and then their journey
• 17:06
  and she's saying look and I'm a GP and I should be able to spot it,
• 17:09
  and I'm saying to her but your child was able to go to you,
• 17:13
  your child was able to share her struggles which at the time was worries and
• 17:17
  she was scared of getting sick and she felt different and the doctor on the
• 17:21
  podcast was saying no no but I didn't know,
• 17:24
  and I was saying but this is so different that there's already a connection
• 17:27
  and a relationship that your child is able to go to you. That's the attunement.
• 17:32
  You're able to see your child struggle. You're able to empathize.
• 17:35
  You're able to connect with them.
• 17:38
  And that is so different for a child that grows up either in dysfunction or
• 17:43
  especially with a narcissistic parent because all they've learned is how to
• 17:47
  do everything by themselves.
• 17:49
  There's three different types of parentification that I talk about in the book
• 17:53
  and that's one of the areas that I really specialize and love and have such an interest in it.
• 17:58
  And that is the instrumental parentification, where the child...
• 18:03
  A child to recognize instrumental parentification is that if they really raise,
• 18:07
  their own siblings, you know, if they're the parent to their siblings,
• 18:11
  if they're cooking the dinners, if they're paying the bills,
• 18:14
  if they're tending to somebody that's sick, if they are.
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  Booking medical appointments, paying medical bills, having that responsibility
• 18:23
  that is just beyond developmentally appropriate.
• 18:26
  And then there's emotional parentification. And this is where the parent treats
• 18:30
  their child as their mini confidant, their best friend, shares secrets with
• 18:35
  them, shares relationship worries, marital problems with the child.
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  The child is often the go-between then in the relationship, again like a mini therapist.
• 18:43
  And as I say that, it's not that they are in any way a therapist because one,
• 18:49
  as a therapist, we don't provide therapy to our family for a reason.
• 18:54
  Two, that's me saying that as an adult. But for a child, they don't have these
• 18:58
  resources. They don't have the prefrontal cortex fully developed.
• 19:01
  They're not in a position of power to help, but the parent puts them into this.
• 19:08
  It's like pseudo power. It's an illusion of power. The child can feel so powerful
• 19:12
  that my mother or father, whoever is the emotional parentifying parent,
• 19:17
  they can't live without me. They couldn't manage without me. I'm all they have.
• 19:21
  But that's actually the manipulation and the conditioning.
• 19:25
  And so then narcissistic parentification is a combination of both,
• 19:29
  but it's also a projection from the narcissist. So the simple way that I describe
• 19:35
  this and we talk about it in the book is you imagine the narcissist at the head of the table.
• 19:39
  And then if the children, depending on how many children are in the home then
• 19:44
  at the table, if there's only one child, that child will go through the rolls nearly like whiplash.
• 19:50
  They won't know if they're coming or going. It is so disorienting and they can
• 19:55
  stay for a long time in one roll or they could change rolls within the day.
• 20:00
  So if we have four siblings, this is what we would typically see.
• 20:03
  And one is the golden child.
• 20:05
  Everyone knows the golden child. That's the child that can do no wrong.
• 20:08
  The sun shines out of their arse.
• 20:10
  It's never their fault, never their problem. If they only come home once a year,
• 20:14
  they're wonderful, they're amazing.
• 20:16
  Don't annoy them, don't upset them. When they come back into the home,
• 20:18
  they're allowed to like rule the roost as they did, you know,
• 20:21
  take over the television, do
• 20:22
  all these things, you know, tell everybody to wait on them hand on foot.
• 20:27
  Whereas another child that actually is there, that's at home,
• 20:30
  maybe visiting their parent every weekend, they're being criticized.
• 20:33
  So that's the golden child. Then we have the invisible child.
• 20:37
  And the child is just that, completely invisible to the parents.
• 20:41
  They won't know what they're doing. They won't be asked about their day.
• 20:44
  That child typically can really escape into an imaginative world.
• 20:50
  As a child, be an avid reader, be imaginative, be creative, have imaginary friends
• 20:57
  because they are so invisible to the family.
• 21:00
  Always forgotten, always last to get a call, always last to mention or think of them.
• 21:05
  You know all going out for something to eat oh did anybody ask such and such
• 21:09
  or maybe where's such and such oh we never asked them.
• 21:13
  Can I just ask a quick question about that and so essentially with that invisible
• 21:18
  child as an example that lack of emotional investment in that child is that
• 21:24
  a form of emotional abuse.
• 21:27
  It is because it's emotional neglect and emotional neglect is abuse.
• 21:32
  And a lot of people can name that when there's outward emotional abuse,
• 21:39
  verbal abuse, scorn, contempt, but there's also complete neglect, which is a form of abuse.
• 21:47
  And the narcissistic parent won't.
• 21:50
  It's emotional abuse because no child gets their needs met.
• 21:54
  A lot of people think that the golden child actually you know they get away
• 21:57
  with everything so they've escaped the system,
• 22:00
  they haven't typically the golden child will have a lot of narcissistic traits
• 22:04
  because they will feel so entitled because they will never have to
• 22:08
  you know empathy is a skill they will never have had to take any accountability
• 22:12
  and empathize and apologize so they are constantly praised they're put on a pedestal
• 22:17
  and when a child grows up like that, they end up believing that and can really
• 22:21
  struggle in relationships, struggle in romantic relationships.
• 22:24
  And although it can look outside maybe that they have loads of friends,
• 22:28
  but really that's very superficial that they won't be able to sustain deep and
• 22:33
  meaningful relationships because they're not able to connect to that.
• 22:36
  So the narcissist does them such a huge disservice as well.
• 22:41
  And when I talk about that, a lot of people then, the siblings can feel so sorry
• 22:46
  for their golden child sibling. And typically, if it's an eldest boy in the
• 22:51
  family, it can be the eldest boy.
• 22:54
  And this is where we can have empathy for the trauma, but not excuse their behavior
• 22:59
  if you're being treated badly or poorly by them.
• 23:03
  Yeah. Something else that I read, and we can get on to the third type of child
• 23:08
  of an autistic parent, that third role.
• 23:11
  But within the golden child, when I was reading through the book,
• 23:14
  I thought it was interesting that there was also the possibility of it being
• 23:18
  enmeshment, is that what that was called?
• 23:20
  Instead of it being a golden child. Was that the right,
• 23:23
  So that's typically when the third child, then what we talk about is that is
• 23:27
  when is the golden child not the golden child? Yes. And so the word that I talk
• 23:32
  about is the gilded child. So it's a false golden.
• 23:35
  So earlier when I was talking about emotional parentification,
• 23:38
  this is the child that is typically enmeshed. If we look at this,
• 23:41
  let's say the mother and the daughter, for example, this is where that child
• 23:46
  can believe that they're the golden child.
• 23:48
  Again when they are the mother's best friend when they are the mother's emotional
• 23:51
  support when they are meeting all their mother's emotional needs when they struggle
• 23:56
  to have an identity outside of themselves there's this,
• 24:00
  it almost looks like a marriage and that's because the mother has treated the child,
• 24:05
  like like a spouse,
• 24:07
  and that is the emotional investment we see this as well a father can do this
• 24:11
  with his daughter and can treat the child like their spouse and it's a huge.
• 24:17
  It is abusive.
• 24:18
  It damages a child. It forces them into a role. And this is what I mean when
• 24:22
  the narcissistic parent puts the child in a role, because if they ever,
• 24:27
  don't tend to their parents' need. If they ever want to have a relationship,
• 24:33
  there'll be such jealousy from the parent.
• 24:35
  And again, the jealousy can be really hard to spot because the jealousy is typically more covert.
• 24:41
  Even if it is the overt presentation of narcissism, the jealousy will be.
• 24:47
  Criticism often that if you are going to do something to maybe further your
• 24:51
  career, if you are going to even maybe want to move out of home or move town or move country.
• 24:57
  Either it could be you won't survive without me or how could you leave me?
• 25:02
  How would you even manage that? You can't do X, Y or Z. You can't save money.
• 25:06
  How would you manage to do that? And I'm only telling you this for your own
• 25:09
  good, Kelsey. It's only because I'm worried about you.
• 25:11
  But you couldn't manage out there by yourself. Who would you go and talk to?
• 25:14
  Like, what would you do if you didn't have to come home to me?
• 25:16
  Like, I'm just really worried about you.
• 25:19
  And again, it's denying the child the steps towards independence.
• 25:23
  Or if you have a partner, that can be intense jealousy, unless there's a gain
• 25:30
  for the narcissistic parent. So for example, if you're,
• 25:33
  a partner is, let's say has a skill, let's say is a trades person that the narcissistic
• 25:40
  parent wants. So if that's electrician, plumber, they can absolutely then really
• 25:44
  like this partner because now I can get use out of them.
• 25:49
  If they are in a profession, maybe doctor, lawyer, and now I can exploit them
• 25:55
  to have close proximity, that my daughter now is married to an X, Y, or Z,
• 25:59
  and I can use this because my ego is huge and I can use this again and exploit this.
• 26:05
  That is how the jealousy looks. Or if you spend more time with them, oh, that's okay.
• 26:11
  I don't matter at all then. And we see this with friends. I don't matter.
• 26:14
  You go on and you go on on your holiday and don't worry about me.
• 26:18
  Yeah. And either more covert, don't worry about me, poor me,
• 26:21
  or more overt and actually calling the child or adult child names.
• 26:25
  You're selfish. After all I did for you. You know, you do nothing for me.
• 26:29
  All you do is think about yourself.
• 26:31
  So it can be more overt and direct and explicit or more covert and implicit.
• 26:37
  And what a complicated thing to navigate through as an adult,
• 26:43
  let alone, like you said, as a child who is dependent on their parents for,
• 26:48
  all forms of safety and they shouldn't be and aren't expected to be able to recognize that.
• 26:54
  And I think that's what makes this topic so important is understanding and being
• 26:58
  able to look back and say, hey, you know what, that pattern was not only unhealthy,
• 27:03
  that was abusive when as a child, like you said earlier.
• 27:08
  You come to think of it as just being normal.
• 27:12
  Yeah. Can you go on to describe the third role that is placed on children?
• 27:20
  Yeah, so that was the third, the gilded child, when the child that thinks they're
• 27:23
  golden. And then the fourth is the scapegoat.
• 27:26
  And this is the child that's blamed from birth.
• 27:28
  Anything that goes wrong in the family, it's put on this child.
• 27:31
  So often we even hear the narcissistic parent say that they were a bad baby
• 27:36
  even in the womb. This was a tough pregnancy. This was a tough birth.
• 27:39
  You never slept. You were always crying.
• 27:41
  You know there was always problems from the beginning and then anything that
• 27:45
  goes wrong if your sibling does something to you well what did you do to them
• 27:48
  first you know you always have something to say you're always complaining there's
• 27:51
  always something wrong with you,
• 27:53
  and they're being blamed for every single thing and the child obviously will
• 27:58
  believe their parents if they're being told this time and time again and it
• 28:02
  can be so confusing and then if they go to fight back in any way,
• 28:06
  they're blamed further.
• 28:07
  And the scapegoat is usually the truth teller, the truth speaker,
• 28:13
  the one that struggles with unfairness. So when I talk about struggling with
• 28:18
  unfairness, a lot of people go, oh my God, well, is that ADHD? And.
• 28:23
  I personally think that somebody with ADHD can have this awareness and attunement to themselves.
• 28:31
  That fairness and unfairness is a value.
• 28:36
  But what can happen is this can become really heightened need or value if that
• 28:41
  is thwarted or resisted or annihilated out of you. The narcissistic parent,
• 28:48
  the child won't have their no.
• 28:50
  They won't be able to say no to their parent without repercussion.
• 28:54
  And so in adulthood then when they're going to sin, it's often only when they're
• 28:58
  going to say no that then they really experience the wrath.
• 29:02
  And the wrath can either be overt, which again, name-calling,
• 29:06
  contempt, mocking, humiliation, belittling, devaluing.
• 29:11
  Oh sure, you know, you got that job. I bet you there wasn't many people going
• 29:14
  for it. Yeah. Or, you know, what did you do for them?
• 29:18
  You know, constantly putting somebody down or that qualification didn't mean
• 29:21
  anything. You got it online. So it can be more overt like that.
• 29:26
  But punishment as well can be more covert. And a lot of people don't even recognize
• 29:31
  that's abusive, which is the silent treatment.
• 29:34
  When a parent stops speaking to the child. Before I had my own podcast and talked
• 29:39
  about this online, the amount of times it would take clients so long to,
• 29:45
  say and identify and say, oh,
• 29:47
  yeah, my mother wouldn't speak to me or my father wouldn't speak to me.
• 29:50
  And it was just their normal. Oh, yeah, no, that's normal. Oh,
• 29:53
  yeah, she was annoyed at X, Y or Z. She was annoyed that I told my auntie something before her.
• 29:57
  She was like, I can't believe you tell them and not me. And unless I apologize, she won't speak to me.
• 30:03
  And then And weeks can pass, but it will be only when the adult reaches out,
• 30:08
  and makes connection that it will be ignored or forgotten about.
• 30:13
  If you try to hold the narcissist accountable, again, you will experience more wrath.
• 30:17
  So people just grow up with this, you know, walking on eggshells around the
• 30:20
  parent, waiting for them to blow up, being able to read their behavior,
• 30:25
  being able to recognize behavior and tone, that sigh, the look.
• 30:31
  If anybody has grown up with a narcissistic parent, they will know what I mean by the look.
• 30:34
  Or that body language that I done something wrong.
• 30:38
  I said something now that's pissed them off and I'm going to get it when I get home.
• 30:42
  And if that get it again is more explicit or if that's more subtle but still
• 30:48
  cold, it's still rage. The silent treatment is rage.
• 30:51
  And that the child even begging the parent going, mom or dad,
• 30:54
  like what did I do wrong? Like I didn't mean it, I'm sorry.
• 30:57
  And this will be because the narcissistic parent took offense to something that the child did. Again.
• 31:04
  A lot of it is related to their own autonomy. Would that be so when a parent
• 31:11
  is giving a silent treatment like that and they're upset at the child about
• 31:15
  something, is it often a projection?
• 31:17
  I know you talk about projections in the book. Is that related to this?
• 31:21
  So this will predominantly be about dominance and control.
• 31:25
  So if I don't like that you did something, I'm going to punish you for it.
• 31:30
  And a child is so dependent on their parent for their survival.
• 31:34
  They not only need it from a survival point of view, they want it.
• 31:39
  A child wants to be connected to their parent. They want to be comforted. They want that nurture.
• 31:45
  And so they go back time and time again to try to get this. and they believe
• 31:50
  that there's something wrong with them.
• 31:52
  Because one, it's actually more hopeful to believe that because if there's something
• 31:56
  wrong with me, well, I can change it.
• 31:59
  I can do something different and I can work towards and try to get my parent
• 32:04
  to love me, to try and get my parent to be happy with me, to try and get my
• 32:07
  parent to see the good in me.
• 32:09
  But with a narcissistic parent, this is a false endeavor. So for a narcissistic
• 32:14
  parent or any abusive relationship, It's all about control and dominance.
• 32:18
  And so if you give a child the silent treatment, that is psychologically damaging.
• 32:24
  That is akin to putting a child out in the cold, out in the snow and closing
• 32:29
  the door, out in the freezing cold, that isolation.
• 32:32
  They will be desperately trying to get back inside into the warmth.
• 32:36
  And so that in terms of survival response. So are you familiar with fight or flight?
• 32:43
  Yeah. So fight or flight is that survival response when we're going in that adrenaline rush.
• 32:49
  And this is really healthy. Like this is the part that if we go to step back
• 32:52
  out in the road and a car comes, we're going to jump back in and we don't even
• 32:55
  have to think about that.
• 32:56
  Or if we're driving and something blows out in the road, like our reaction,
• 33:00
  our hands move really quickly. We don't have to think, oh, there is something
• 33:04
  and now I'm going to do something. It's an automatic survival response.
• 33:08
  And so there's actually, to break it down further, it's fight,
• 33:11
  flight, freeze and fawn.
• 33:13
  There's actually a fifth and flaps and collapse, but fight, flight, freeze and fawn.
• 33:18
  And when a child is given the silent treatment, typically what it does is it
• 33:22
  brings them into the phone response, which is to apologize profusely, blend, beg,
• 33:28
  morph into whatever the parent wants them to be, because they desperately want to escape
• 33:35
  that coldness, that isolation, and try to get back into warmth.
• 33:41
  But a lot of times what actually happens is and.
• 33:46
  It it's there is no warmth it just means that they're not being attacked,
• 33:51
  the amount of adults that I would have in session where they'd say oh mom was
• 33:55
  actually really nice to me yesterday or I was just talking to my sister or brother
• 33:59
  and dad was actually really nice to me and I say oh lovely tell me about that how how were they nice,
• 34:05
  And they sit and they say, well, they didn't criticize me.
• 34:10
  And they didn't say that, you know, that my hair was bad or I hadn't slept.
• 34:13
  And they didn't judge me. And they, you know, they didn't do any of these things.
• 34:16
  And I'm like, okay, but tell me where they were nice. Where were they kind?
• 34:21
  Did they ask you about you or your day? Were they interested in your life?
• 34:25
  And it's like, no. and a lot of the times that what they think is nice or kindness
• 34:31
  what they just mean the absence of attack,
• 34:34
  so I wasn't attacked today I wasn't criticized I wasn't annihilated I wasn't
• 34:38
  made feel bad or small or guilty and they they equate that to being nice but
• 34:45
  actually when we put it down to it going where where they're nice,
• 34:49
  and typically what we see is the narcissistic parent is only nice when they
• 34:52
  want something back they will be nice when they want you to do something And
• 34:55
  they will be nice if there is manipulation at play.
• 34:59
  Or they will be nice when they have total control.
• 35:02
  So a lot of the times there can be support given if the adult child is going
• 35:07
  through a really, really tough spot.
• 35:09
  Or if they maybe are really, really sick. And a lot of kids,
• 35:12
  when they think back to when they were sick, they were like,
• 35:14
  oh, well, my mother or father, whoever the narcissistic parent is,
• 35:17
  like, showed a lot of concern then when I was unwell or sick.
• 35:22
  And when we look at that and look at, well, what was the gain in it for them
• 35:26
  and how much control did they have over you then when you're sick because you're
• 35:29
  so vulnerable, they get to make all the decisions.
• 35:32
  They get to be the martyr, the, you know, I'm wonderful, I'm great.
• 35:37
  And the narcissist goes between the martyr and the victim.
• 35:40
  The martyr, I'm wonderful, I'm great, look at all I've done for you.
• 35:43
  To the victim, how could you say that to me?
• 35:45
  I'm the worst parent in the world. You know, that never happened.
• 35:49
  Which, oh, this is, I don't know about for those who are listening,
• 35:51
  but this is a lot of very fascinating information.
• 35:55
  And I think this is something which you obviously talk about in the book and
• 35:59
  you're sharing today, but this is something that takes time.
• 36:02
  You know, you talk about generational trauma and,
• 36:07
  narcissism, emotional abuse, and even just being able to recognize
• 36:11
  some of the effects it has on us, some of the ways that it was presented,
• 36:15
  like you said, with some of your clients, right, coming in and saying,
• 36:18
  well, they were nice when in actuality it was the absence of those attacks.
• 36:23
  What would you say to someone who, as an adult, is struggling with the fact that they really...
• 36:32
  That they want to go back to that abuse, essentially.
• 36:35
  They want to go back to that relationship because they crave,
• 36:38
  especially with a parent-child relationship, they crave that connection,
• 36:43
  that emotional connection and safety and things like that.
• 36:47
  And then they beat themselves up. They shame themselves. You know,
• 36:49
  I'm so stupid. I keep going back to this.
• 36:52
  Why do I keep trusting it will be different?
• 36:54
  I should know better by now. What would you say to somebody who's in that position?
• 36:59
  Firstly, I would commend them for recognizing their needs, because if you are
• 37:04
  craving something, you're able to identify your needs.
• 37:07
  So that's like that's a really healthy thing. And one of the things in a narcissistic
• 37:12
  family, it's really hard to have your own identity.
• 37:14
  That's going to be something that you are going to have to actively work on
• 37:18
  as you are an adult, because, again, those developmental steps will be thwarted
• 37:22
  or annihilated and punished because there's only one right way.
• 37:26
  It's my way or the highway. There's only one way to be, behave,
• 37:28
  do, and a lot of these rules will be unwritten.
• 37:33
  The adult child just knows what way to behave. So, for example,
• 37:38
  if somebody in the family system, maybe let's say if that adult child tells
• 37:42
  their auntie something, it will be, well, don't, you know, don't tell ma'am
• 37:46
  before I tell her or don't tell dad before I tell her.
• 37:48
  Or they won't even say it to the auntie. They'll make sure that they tell their
• 37:51
  parent first because of the conditioning that this is what you're supposed to do.
• 37:57
  There will be also typically either another narcissistic parent or there'll
• 38:02
  be an enabling parent that I mentioned at the beginning that's saying that's
• 38:06
  just your mother, that's just your father.
• 38:07
  Just, you know, this is just what we have to do. And there's an illusion that
• 38:12
  it's me and you against the narcissistic parent.
• 38:16
  Whereas that's not true. It isn't mean you against the parent because you are the adult.
• 38:22
  You are the one that has things at your disposal. You are the one that has,
• 38:26
  could get a job if you don't have one. You can go and get resources.
• 38:29
  And this is difficult. I'm not saying that this is easy, but they have the resources.
• 38:34
  The child, their rational brain isn't fully developed.
• 38:37
  They have no mobile phone. They have no money. They have no house. They have no car.
• 38:41
  They are at the mercy of the adult. And for the adult, the enabling parent to
• 38:45
  say, like, we're in it together, like it's me and you against them, that's not true.
• 38:50
  And what's more accurate is that they're putting the child in the firing line
• 38:56
  and putting the child, you know, like a lamb to the slaughter and not standing up for the child.
• 39:01
  And this is so layered because if this is the first time somebody's hearing
• 39:05
  about this, this can be overwhelming.
• 39:08
  And like take breaks if you're hearing this and you're like oh this is too much
• 39:11
  even on this podcast like take a break or the book put the book down
• 39:15
  because this is a kind of constant unlayering like an onion so back to that
• 39:21
  question that you said so one if you're able to identify your needs,
• 39:25
  but two the question that I would ask is what are you hoping for.
• 39:29
  So you said I keep it for a person that keeps going back. And this is the cycle,
• 39:33
  that I see all the time. They keep going back because generally it's maybe this time I'll be different.
• 39:39
  You know, this time I have good news to share that I got a new job or I'm pregnant
• 39:43
  or something happened. And surely this time they'll be able to be the parent that I need.
• 39:49
  And a lot of those times they're often the catalysts because there's such,
• 39:54
  societal expectation that we know let's say the mother or the father or the
• 39:58
  bride the expectations what's what's normal to do like that is the one event
• 40:03
  that actually the bride or groom is allowed to,
• 40:07
  be centered on themselves and talk about themselves this is a time where people
• 40:11
  allow and celebrate that a birthday a graduation the birth of a child.
• 40:16
  But this is typically then where they are confronted with the reality that the
• 40:19
  narcissist makes it all about them, makes it a problem at every birthday.
• 40:23
  That's when their back is sore, where they can't go, where they make people
• 40:27
  feel sorry for them, where they center themselves around if this is the birth
• 40:31
  of a child, that they might want to be in the
• 40:34
  room of the birth or they want to be there first or they take ownership of it.
• 40:39
  There's all of these dynamics at play.
• 40:42
  And so that part where somebody wants either their mother or father is such
• 40:47
  a natural human response.
• 40:49
  But I would ask them, what is the hope? Because there's a hope that's driving
• 40:53
  them back and a hope that this time will be different.
• 40:57
  This time I will be different and I won't expect X, Y, or Z.
• 41:01
  This time, surely if I say it this way, or maybe if I behave this way,
• 41:04
  you know, they mightn't criticize me, they mightn't attack me.
• 41:08
  When I just quickly I'll even talk about the three different types of narcissistic
• 41:12
  parent which is the criticizing parent that's the one that will criticize everything
• 41:16
  your hair what you're wearing your shoes how you drive your parenting your job,
• 41:21
  they just they constantly criticize,
• 41:23
  there's the ignoring parent they just absolutely ignore the child they
• 41:28
  don't ask them any questions they're not interested in them and then there's
• 41:31
  the engulfing parent this parent is often praised by society because they look
• 41:35
  so loving and involved, but they are over-involved in every single aspects of the child's life.
• 41:40
  And the child feels stifled and has no room to breathe.
• 41:43
  Again, when we're talking about back into that enmeshment and you're feeding
• 41:47
  the parents' needs and not the child's.
• 41:50
  And then we call it the fourth, which is a combination of the three.
• 41:54
  And actually, if you have a narcissistic parent, there's a high chance you'll
• 41:57
  be able to relate to the three of them.
• 41:59
  Generally you might lean stronger into one or the other.
• 42:04
  And so when we're looking at that hope, why somebody goes back,
• 42:09
  we have to look at, is this healthy hope or is this toxic hope?
• 42:14
  And actually toxic hope, and there's a chapter on it in the book,
• 42:17
  that's really another name for denial. And we talk about that. There's a denial.
• 42:21
  And in accepting the reality that my parent can't give me what I need. There's a grief in that.
• 42:29
  And often you're not grieving the parent that you had, but you're grieving the
• 42:33
  parent that you want, the parent that you deserved. And there's a lot of pain in that.
• 42:39
  And so now the behavior is purposeful.
• 42:41
  Now I'm going back to avoid the pain because I don't want to feel that grief.
• 42:46
  And so it's not stupid. Do you see that blame and shame, that cycle that you
• 42:49
  were talking about? Why did I go? Why am I stupid?
• 42:52
  It's not. It's purposeful because I want to avoid the grief and this feeling.
• 42:57
  Kind of avoid that acceptance of reality, like you said, that can bring a wave
• 43:03
  of grief that we might not be ready to handle.
• 43:06
  It's so hard because you're grieving somebody that's living.
• 43:11
  You know, when I think of when a death happens and when I think of in Ireland,
• 43:14
  you know, community comes around.
• 43:17
  We'll have so many days off. Families come with sandwiches and we have tea and
• 43:21
  we share stories and there's a grieving process.
• 43:23
  There's a ceremony, there's a funeral or if that's a cremation.
• 43:28
  There's a church, there's like a mourning period.
• 43:30
  And in that time, nobody would expect me to be happy or have motivation to do
• 43:37
  anything. Like people, I'm being met with compassion and understanding.
• 43:41
  Hopefully, if I have, you know, support around me.
• 43:45
  But for this type of grief, the parent is still living. The parent is either
• 43:50
  living at home or still working. This is just an average Tuesday.
• 43:53
  And you're expected to show up. And oftentimes people are so confused by this
• 43:57
  because it's, how am I so sad?
• 44:00
  And whereas in the work that I do, when I say this is akin to a death,
• 44:05
  and imagine what you would feel like if somebody belonging to you had died,
• 44:10
  but the accommodations that would be put in place, that's not happening here
• 44:13
  and you're still expected to function.
• 44:16
  So we need to really lower expectations for you now in this part of.
• 44:21
  And because for the adult, they've been gaslit their whole life. You should be grateful.
• 44:28
  Just get on with it. Other people have it worse. They're not that bad.
• 44:32
  And so there's this constant gaslighting and it's self-gaslighting now.
• 44:38
  Well it wasn't that bad and am I overreacting and maybe they're not that and
• 44:41
  so this plays a part and because one of the things a narcissist does it takes
• 44:46
  away your trust in yourself that you're not able to trust your own intuition trust your own,
• 44:52
  feeling so if you've ever walked away from any sort of interaction with somebody
• 44:58
  and had this feeling of oh.
• 45:00
  That wasn't okay but then you immediately doubt yourself and go oh well maybe
• 45:03
  they didn't mean it that way and maybe it was this And, you know,
• 45:06
  you're not able to trust that experience that actually, yeah,
• 45:09
  that wasn't okay what happened here.
• 45:11
  But that trust has been taken away because you were never allowed,
• 45:14
  your feelings were never validated. They were always ignored or shamed.
• 45:20
  Something from what you just said that's standing out for me is just the idea
• 45:24
  of the fact that as a child you are vulnerable it's not your responsibility
• 45:30
  to take on some of these roles your parent has given you,
• 45:33
  but the reality that you talk about at the end of the book too is that,
• 45:37
  Whether we like it or not, and we don't like it, but it changes our reality in adulthood.
• 45:43
  And it's something that, like you said, you need to sit with those uncomfortable
• 45:48
  emotions and you need to go through them in order to be able to work on that healing process.
• 45:56
  Because I look at, you know, for my own life, I look at some of,
• 46:00
  you know, my parents would fight a lot.
• 46:03
  And if I you know sided with my mom to try to protect her from my dad she would
• 46:08
  take me aside after and say you know what sweetie and I was young at the time
• 46:12
  I was maybe seven eight years old,
• 46:15
  and she would say it's actually going to make it worse with dad if you step
• 46:19
  in can you please not stand up next time can you not say anything it actually
• 46:23
  makes it worse and so you know looking back.
• 46:27
  Later in life some of the ways I was treated in jobs by people and stuff like
• 46:31
  that it kind of perpetuates that abuse.
• 46:33
  It's like people can see, you know what, this person is somebody that I can
• 46:37
  control, I can dominate because of the fact, like you said, is that you don't
• 46:41
  learn to have that self-trust.
• 46:44
  You question yourself, you question, you know, how bad was it really?
• 46:49
  And I think there is, there's so much grief in that. There's that loss of what
• 46:54
  you thought was, what you thought hoped could be.
• 46:57
  And then also that grief for yourself, like you talk about this,
• 47:01
  in the book as well as that that grief of you know who could i have been how
• 47:05
  would things have been differently what are some things in my life that that
• 47:09
  maybe wouldn't have happened that you know heap on the shame when you've been conditioned you know,
• 47:15
  down to your nervous system of when somebody attacks in whatever way that is
• 47:20
  we don't stand up because it makes it worse you know and then it's oh it is such a,
• 47:26
  Yeah, it causes a lot of grief. It really does.
• 47:29
  And so if anyone who's listening is feeling that grief, like you said,
• 47:32
  if they need to pause, I definitely recommend seeking professional help as well
• 47:37
  with this because it's, there's so much, there's so many layers.
• 47:41
  So with that being said, go ahead.
• 47:44
  It's huge. And even what you're talking about there, that responsibility that
• 47:47
  the child was put in a position, you, to then stand up for your parent,
• 47:52
  even though your parent afterwards said, no, don't do that,
• 47:55
  you are still then left in a state of not only helplessness,
• 47:59
  but when I was talking about earlier, the four Fs, the freeze,
• 48:01
  fight, flight, fawn, in the book, we really break these down into two camps,
• 48:05
  and that's the hyper-independence and the hyper-dependence.
• 48:09
  And so the hyperdependence, people might recognize that as the people pleasing and the codependency.
• 48:14
  So that's feeling responsible for other people, feeling anxious when other people have problems.
• 48:19
  A fear of conflict is a huge one. And then they can wonder why,
• 48:23
  when they give so much in relationships, wonder why others don't do the same as them.
• 48:28
  They can feel like a burden asking for help. They can overshare and over-apologize.
• 48:32
  Apologize for taking up space. Apologize for apologizing.
• 48:35
  You know, apologize for ever phoning. Apologize for existence.
• 48:38
  And really have a belief that they're unimportant and that other people are more important.
• 48:43
  And then on the other side, there's the hyper-independents. And these are the
• 48:48
  people that refuse help.
• 48:50
  They decide everything by themselves. I say, you know, it's like they think
• 48:53
  that they're on an island and no, I'll manage everything by myself. I don't need any help.
• 48:56
  Really guarded in relationships. They don't delegate. They can maybe be workaholics.
• 49:02
  Dislike maybe needy people or anybody that they're really such a fear of being
• 49:06
  engulfed, right? So keep everybody at arm's length and they can struggle in
• 49:11
  long-term relationships.
• 49:13
  And a lot of people, again, they can identify themselves maybe in both,
• 49:17
  but again, it's predominantly in one. Okay, yes, I am the people pleaser.
• 49:21
  I, you know, don't say, I can't say no to somebody.
• 49:24
  I am swallowed by fear and shame and that I'm a bad person. And then I feel
• 49:29
  almost compelled to do it.
• 49:31
  Or the hyper-independent that keeps people at a distance and keeps people at arm's length.
• 49:35
  Anybody that they let into their circle, right? So if they have to swim across
• 49:40
  dams and moats and climb over a wall, if they get in on their inner circle.
• 49:43
  The hyper-independent will do the same here. They will really struggle to say no to this person.
• 49:48
  They can prioritize them and ignore their own needs.
• 49:53
  And so it's this part then that actually turning inward and trying to identify,
• 49:59
  well, what do I like? What do I want? What do I prefer?
• 50:03
  Whereas when you grow up with a narcissistic parent, you become hyper-vigilant.
• 50:08
  At what another person wants and needs. And so you anticipate their needs in
• 50:13
  order to avoid, again, the rap or them being in a bad mood. So you can,
• 50:17
  you're trying to stop the row before it happens.
• 50:21
  And so you live in this state and this state is survival mode.
• 50:25
  And so there is a grief. I remember the first time I talked about the phone
• 50:28
  response on TikTok and it, and it blew up and people were like,
• 50:31
  oh my God, I thought that was my personality.
• 50:33
  And now I'm learning it's a trauma response.
• 50:36
  And there's a grief in that. All the ways that I learned to survive,
• 50:41
  a lot of people think that they're an empath.
• 50:43
  And I don't believe there's such a thing as an empath. It's hyper vigilance.
• 50:46
  There is such a thing as empathy, but empathy has separateness.
• 50:50
  I can have empathy for you, but not fuse with you and want to rescue and fix
• 50:54
  you and feel bad and guilty for everything that you're going through and lose
• 50:58
  myself and merge into you.
• 51:00
  Empathy is separate. I can have empathy and compassion and really recognize
• 51:04
  that that's terrible what you're going through. And I might even,
• 51:07
  you know, I can ask you, do you need help? Or, you know, what do you want?
• 51:10
  And I can recognize where I end and you begin.
• 51:14
  Whereas when somebody like the, let's say the phone response and that hyper
• 51:19
  dependence is merging with the other person, blending with the other person,
• 51:23
  a chameleon, like I'll be whatever you want me to be.
• 51:26
  I'll do whatever you need me to do. And I'll be so attuned to what you need and want.
• 51:31
  And I've never got in touch with what I need or want because I was never allowed
• 51:36
  to do that in childhood. And now it's alien to me in adulthood.
• 51:40
  Yeah, that was definitely a part for me that stood out.
• 51:44
  Even just thinking about, you know, a story that I was told when I was,
• 51:49
  in my teen years or in my 20s was that I was such a compassionate child and
• 51:54
  that when my mom was having a hard time, I would, you know, she was crying in
• 51:57
  her room, whatever it was, I would go in at three years old and I'd rub her
• 52:01
  back and say like, are you okay, mommy, whatever.
• 52:03
  But the extent to which that happened, you know, looking at that now,
• 52:10
  I've tried to explain to my husband before, I mean, this is,
• 52:13
  you know, about a year ago, saying, I don't know why,
• 52:17
  but when these other people are struggling, it's like this pull in all of who
• 52:22
  I am that if I can help them, I need to help them.
• 52:26
  And it's i wouldn't say it haunts me it consumes me it felt like it would consume
• 52:31
  me thinking about trying to help that this person or these people and it would
• 52:35
  be sometimes people that i hardly knew
• 52:37
  but when i could tell that they weren't doing well and like you said that hyper
• 52:41
  vigilance that awareness of something's not right and if you feel like you can
• 52:46
  come in and you can rescue and you know all of these all of these things it's
• 52:50
  it's incredibly helpful and.
• 52:53
  It does also cause grief, as you said, but it is helpful to recognize,
• 52:58
  oh, this is what's going on.
• 52:59
  Can I ask you if you're willing to go hear a little bit that part,
• 53:02
  that compulsion? Because I'm hearing I feel obligated to do the thing. Yeah.
• 53:07
  I'm wondering if you didn't do it. So the stranger that needed something,
• 53:11
  if you didn't do it, how would you feel? What would be happening for you?
• 53:16
  So I think this is something that I have started to work through,
• 53:20
  even in the process of doing my training to be a life coach and ADHD coach,
• 53:23
  I really had to understand, like you said, that empathy is separate.
• 53:27
  It's not a continuation. And viewing people, in our course we called it,
• 53:31
  viewing them as naturally creative, resourceful, and whole, seeing them as complete and capable,
• 53:37
  it was so incredibly empowering and also freeing for me because before that,
• 53:43
  I would feel sick to my stomach.
• 53:45
  I'd feel consumed at the thought of not helping that person how could I be so
• 53:51
  selfish to not help them when I was able to so sick to your stomach so what emotion is that,
• 53:58
  Anxious? Anxiety? Yeah. And so anxiety, what emotion is that?
• 54:02
  Because anxiety is the physical manifestation. So anxiety is the heart rate, the sick and my fear.
• 54:08
  Right. So you're recognizing that fear then is driving the behavior.
• 54:13
  Fear and then obligated. I feel obligated to do it.
• 54:17
  And often the fear then, because I'll be selfish, right? The fear of the guilt.
• 54:21
  I can't tolerate the guilt that I'm going to be left with.
• 54:23
  So we have a chapter on that in the book, FOG, fear, obligation, and guilt.
• 54:27
  And if we let the fear drive, because that is in fight or flight,
• 54:32
  that is the fawn and that behavior. And there, I can't not do it.
• 54:37
  It's the urgency, like I have to do it and I have to do it now.
• 54:41
  Whereas empathy would be recognizing that somebody's in trouble.
• 54:45
  And this is compassionate empathy. There's three different types of empathy.
• 54:48
  There's the cognitive, there's the feeling, the emotions, and then there's what
• 54:52
  you're talking about, The compassionate empathy.
• 54:54
  And this is a wonderful thing to have, by the way, especially in community,
• 54:58
  that if we see someone struggling, that we want to help them,
• 55:02
  that we like there, I'm moving my body forwards, that I want to do something.
• 55:07
  But the difference with healthy empathy is that I will ask you, do you want help?
• 55:13
  Yeah, I will see you, as you said, as that adult, as that creative,
• 55:17
  as that independent person.
• 55:19
  And so I can ask you, do you need a hand?
• 55:22
  I can see you're struggling. Do you want help with anything?
• 55:25
  And if you say no, I respect the autonomy in that, you know,
• 55:29
  and when I think of somebody that has grown up hyper independent and they're
• 55:32
  walking around carrying six boxes, three books, four bags in their head,
• 55:36
  holding a baby and something on their back, right?
• 55:39
  We want to rescue and take everything off somebody, but to treat them like an
• 55:43
  adult is saying, do you want a hand?
• 55:45
  And what's so hard to do is if somebody says, no, I'm okay, is actually allowing
• 55:49
  them to, and there, look at me, allowing them as if I have the control,
• 55:53
  right? Even that language, it's not allowing them, it's respecting their decision
• 55:57
  because they have autonomy.
• 55:59
  But when we operate and when we're moving from this fear, we're actually meeting
• 56:04
  our own needs and not the other person's.
• 56:08
  Because we don't want to sit with this fear, obligation and guilt.
• 56:11
  We can't tolerate that because of our own childhood.
• 56:15
  And so the calm method then that I that I wrote and I'm in the process of setting
• 56:19
  up so I have beyond survival podcast I'm setting up a separate podcast by the
• 56:23
  time this goes out it might even be live it's called the calm parent podcast,
• 56:27
  and I have a method because when you think of a parent then who has so somebody
• 56:31
  that has grown up in this dysfunction
• 56:33
  but now has a parent and now overdoes for their kids now never wants their child
• 56:38
  to be upset now they get really dysregulated if their child is upset or having
• 56:43
  a tantrum from the toddler or the teenager.
• 56:45
  And if the parent fuses with that and is so dysregulated, like,
• 56:50
  I can't tolerate this, I want to fix it, I want to make it stop.
• 56:53
  But really, they're trying to ease their own nervous system because they're
• 56:58
  in fear. This is triggering to them. And.
• 57:03
  It's like an overcorrection from childhood. Well, I've never experienced this love, care and support.
• 57:08
  And so I know that I definitely don't want that from my childhood.
• 57:11
  And so now the pendulum is going to swing the other way and I'm going to overdo.
• 57:16
  I'm going to do everything that they never struggle. I never want them to be disappointed.
• 57:20
  I never want them to maybe lift a tap around the house. I'll get you whatever
• 57:23
  you want, sweetie, pet, darling.
• 57:25
  Don't be sad, don't be upset and I'll do everything for you but then I'll do
• 57:29
  them a disservice and rob them of their own resilience
• 57:32
  and that's because I can't, the parent, tolerate their discomfort in the same
• 57:36
  way that you're talking about a stranger. If I can't tolerate their discomfort part.
• 57:41
  The stranger gets to walk away and leave you, but the child in a dynamic.
• 57:45
  And if anyone's listening, this is so typical.
• 57:48
  Like this is so typical in the same way that there's a predictable pattern of
• 57:51
  behavior when I'm talking about the hyper-independence and the hyper-dependence.
• 57:56
  When there's a predictable pattern of behavior from growing up with a narcissistic parent,
• 58:02
  there's a predictable pattern of behavior that I talk about in the CAM method,
• 58:05
  that now if you have grown up the child, if you're recognizing yourself as the
• 58:09
  child in dysfunction, how you are going to parent,
• 58:13
  and this is how we get intergenerational trauma and so the calm method is about,
• 58:18
  recognizing the pendulum swing,
• 58:20
  recognizing the the which you are in what type of parent you are and then recognizing
• 58:26
  taking very clear actionable steps so that you have,
• 58:30
  a blueprint then what to do and so in the same way when you were talking about
• 58:34
  with your adhd coaching and learning that, it's freeing.
• 58:38
  It's like, oh my God, these people are adults. Like, I don't have to rescue and fix.
• 58:44
  And for our children, obviously, and I go through, there's so much that we are
• 58:48
  responsible for, like their safety, their well-being.
• 58:51
  But we are not responsible for their emotions.
• 58:54
  We're responsible for our own behavior.
• 58:57
  But if they are upset that we've told them no, our role in that is to have empathy
• 59:02
  for them, not fuse with them.
• 59:04
  And they're allowed to be sad I actually had a parent on today where she was like.
• 59:09
  I apologize like if I if I tell my child no they can't have the ice cream or
• 59:13
  tell my my teenager he has to come off the playstation and they're upset I'm
• 59:17
  like I'm so sorry I'm so sorry you have to do this and I'm asking them what are you apologizing for.
• 59:23
  Like, what have you done wrong? Yes, we want to take healthy accountability.
• 59:27
  And yes, we want to apologize when we did wrong. I'm sorry for shouting.
• 59:30
  I'm sorry for being late. I'm sorry for overreacting.
• 59:34
  But if you say, no, you're not having the ice cream and your child is upset,
• 59:40
  that's a valid emotion to have.
• 59:43
  That's okay. But you've done nothing wrong to cause this because imagine now
• 59:47
  they didn't want ice cream. They're not going to be upset.
• 59:49
  And so again, we're talking about this separateness and I go through the steps in how to do that.
• 59:55
  To one, recognize the fusion and then to be able to step out of it.
• 59:59
  And honestly, it is freeing and it is liberating for them because the weight
• 1:00:05
  of responsibility is almost too much for them and such a fear that they're going
• 1:00:09
  to mess up their kids or fuck up their kids. That's any time their child is upset. It's this fear.
• 1:00:14
  Generally, whatever message they got from childhood, that I'm selfish,
• 1:00:17
  that I'm cruel, that I'm mean, that I'm all these things, that I'm cold hearted,
• 1:00:21
  that I'm inconsiderate, that being blamed for somebody else's emotion. This is at play.
• 1:00:26
  And so, yeah, we heal in healthy relationships. And there's nobody,
• 1:00:31
  there's no other relationship that's going to mirror back to us our own behaviors
• 1:00:36
  and our own wounds than that with our, than with our child.
• 1:00:41
  And that's our responsibility. And this is to take this full circle where what
• 1:00:46
  happened to you, you had no responsibility in that. That wasn't your fault.
• 1:00:50
  And you get to have so much compassion and empathy in that. And the...
• 1:00:57
  Hard reality is then, as the adult, it is our responsibility to work on ourselves, to delve deeper.
• 1:01:05
  And I think, in fact, we owe it to ourselves to build that identity and have that freedom.
• 1:01:11
  Because when we come out of survival mode, this is where we have fun.
• 1:01:16
  This is where we have play. There's so many parents that, you know,
• 1:01:20
  because for the child growing up in dysfunction like this, play was futile.
• 1:01:24
  You know, like there, I have to protect mom. Like there's more or I'm paying
• 1:01:28
  the bills or I have to raise my siblings. I was going to see the Freudian slip, the kids.
• 1:01:33
  Like I have to manage the marital conflict. Like I have such a weight on my shoulder. Play.
• 1:01:39
  And so the child really struggles to connect to friends their own age because
• 1:01:42
  their friends will seem so immature.
• 1:01:44
  And so they'll either gravitate to somebody much older or they'll gravitate
• 1:01:48
  to the younger child where they can be the parent.
• 1:01:51
  And so in healing, being able to think about, you know, what is fun for you? Like, what is playful?
• 1:01:58
  And this can be really hard. And a lot of times when we have kids,
• 1:02:00
  it can be, oh, like, look, it's sitting, okay, I can do colouring.
• 1:02:03
  I can play Connect Four. I can do a jigsaw.
• 1:02:07
  A lot of times for a child that has grown up in this environment it's really
• 1:02:10
  hard for them to do imaginative play so play with two dolls or and I have parents
• 1:02:15
  that have so much guilt saying,
• 1:02:17
  I you know I can't oh like it's like sticking needles in my eyes to sit down
• 1:02:21
  and play with little army men or little dolls and I'm like you don't have to do that,
• 1:02:25
  and they're like what but is that not damaging my child am I not going to give
• 1:02:28
  them a childhood and I'm like no they can do that if they want or if you want
• 1:02:32
  to play what other ways can you connect and play with them You know, where is your limit?
• 1:02:37
  Like, can you set up the army men? And then that's it. You know,
• 1:02:40
  can you help them bring the dolls to the table?
• 1:02:43
  Can you be the babysitter in your mind and the dolls? Like, that's your job.
• 1:02:47
  Yeah, you're going to watch them going to sleep.
• 1:02:50
  And it's given parents permission going, oh, oh, I didn't know I could do that.
• 1:02:54
  I thought that meant that I was a terrible person and failing as a parent.
• 1:02:57
  And so, yeah, I know I'm going into this part now, but it's recognizing all
• 1:03:02
  of this. And it is, it's freeing because this is where we get to have fun.
• 1:03:05
  This is where we get to have calm.
• 1:03:06
  And this is where we get to move from that reactive fear, obligation,
• 1:03:11
  guilt, that reactive survival to regulate it, to calm, to peace, to trust for freedom.
• 1:03:19
  And that is absolutely possible. And that's, you know, the second half of the
• 1:03:22
  book, what we're talking about there, or specifically what I talk about then
• 1:03:26
  with parenting. This is possible.
• 1:03:29
  And I love that I love the you know going from the awareness of what's been
• 1:03:34
  happening of how that's affected us of how it affects us as adults how it affects
• 1:03:39
  us in our parenting how it permeates every part of our lives but then,
• 1:03:43
  not ending there recognizing that there is another side you know not going around
• 1:03:48
  this not going over it but going through this,
• 1:03:51
  and and finding that healing recognizing learning who we are I think there's
• 1:03:56
  something beautiful in that is you know you hear that,
• 1:03:59
  cliche you know going to find myself but you know for lack of a better term learning who
• 1:04:04
  what we like what we don't like the fact that you said I think that is very
• 1:04:07
  freeing as a parent I have definitely felt that over the years my kids are three
• 1:04:12
  five and seven right now and I felt you know okay well
• 1:04:16
  I should do what they want to do because I want to make sure that they know
• 1:04:19
  that I'm interested in them and who they are.
• 1:04:21
  And so to hear you say that, the fact that if I don't want to play with toy
• 1:04:26
  soldiers, I don't have to play with toy soldiers. There are so many ways that
• 1:04:30
  I can show my child that they are important to me, that I am interested in them,
• 1:04:34
  and that we can do something...
• 1:04:36
  Else and that it doesn't have to be somebody else dictating it.
• 1:04:40
  It doesn't have to be somebody else kind of controlling what we do in a sense.
• 1:04:44
  We can learn who we are even as a parent.
• 1:04:48
  And this is where we teach our kids. You know, the same-sex parent is the one,
• 1:04:54
  so for a mother, the daughter will look towards the mother for,
• 1:04:57
  you know, societal expectations, for how a girl or a woman behaves.
• 1:05:01
  And so if the mother is self-sacrificing all the time, never meets her needs.
• 1:05:06
  And even if the mother is saying to her daughter, no, you can say,
• 1:05:08
  no, no, you don't have to do that.
• 1:05:10
  But I'm driven by, no, I have to do that because this is the right thing.
• 1:05:13
  And I'm a bad person. If I don't do that, they're going to pick that up on behavior.
• 1:05:17
  They're going to learn that, no, this is what you do then for your partner. This is what a wife does.
• 1:05:21
  Like she goes hungry to give her husband the food and she sits down for cold
• 1:05:25
  food. Whereas even that part that, you know, one of the examples I give in the
• 1:05:31
  course that I run is something visual, like, and for me Irish, a cup of tea, right?
• 1:05:36
  So the cup of tea that if I'm sitting having a cup of tea and my child wants
• 1:05:39
  something, now safety first always. Obviously, if this is a safety concern,
• 1:05:43
  obviously, if they're potty training, none of this works or if they're like hitting a sibling.
• 1:05:47
  But if they want something, I'm drinking my tea. Yeah, I'll get it when I'm done.
• 1:05:51
  And so that's given them. So for an ADHD child, that's given them a visual representation.
• 1:05:56
  Or if you do the clock, I can do that in five minutes. Like I'm reading my book.
• 1:06:00
  You know, put the timer, I'll do it in 5 or 10 minutes.
• 1:06:03
  The tea is a really just good natural visualization that's happening in real
• 1:06:07
  time or I'm sitting down resting.
• 1:06:09
  And in that, you're teaching your child a skill. And that skill is that they
• 1:06:13
  have to manage and tolerate their frustration and disappointment.
• 1:06:17
  And if they're not used to that, they're going to have a huge meltdown and huge,
• 1:06:22
  I want it now, right? They're going to have huge pushback.
• 1:06:26
  But if we can implement these and the more that we can stay regulated and implement
• 1:06:31
  these, because I understand, especially for an ADHD child and having those ADHD
• 1:06:36
  meltdowns, they're huge.
• 1:06:37
  But if we're able to have done this work and ground herself and realize that
• 1:06:41
  we're not a bad parent by not fixing it and just having that safety,
• 1:06:47
  a lot of the times the parent wants to fix it, wants.
• 1:06:51
  The child to be regulated in the moment.
• 1:06:53
  Whereas there's a denial in their autonomy in that. They get to,
• 1:06:57
  you know, like have that meltdown. Now, as a parent, I am not anyone's emotional punching bag.
• 1:07:02
  You don't, you know, there are limits. You don't get to do X, Y or Z.
• 1:07:06
  But yeah, feel your feelings all the way, you know, but if that's triggering
• 1:07:11
  us and now I'm in fight or flaunt and I want to shut it down and what happens
• 1:07:15
  is so many parents who've grown up in this environment.
• 1:07:19
  They can have what they think is compassion to a point, right?
• 1:07:22
  So it's, no, I understand. And, you know, this is really tough.
• 1:07:25
  And so they're trying to be soothing and reassuring.
• 1:07:28
  But actually, I have a thermometer technique. It's just to recognize where you
• 1:07:31
  are on the thermometer. And they don't recognize now they're up on like a six or seven.
• 1:07:35
  And so now I know when it's OK and it's OK, mommy's here and I'm reassuring and reassuring.
• 1:07:39
  But when I'm climbing up now to an eight, I just want it to stop.
• 1:07:43
  So now if they keep going and do something, now I'm going to flip and go, will you just stop it?
• 1:07:48
  That's enough right and they think they've gone from zero to ten but actually
• 1:07:53
  they've missed this crucial part where i've been creeping up and actually what
• 1:07:57
  we need in that time is often
• 1:07:59
  to to take a break take a moment take a step back get a glass of water say you have to go to the toilet
• 1:08:04
  regulate ourselves but we have to be aware that that's happening because the
• 1:08:08
  guilt and shame afterwards oh i went to zero and ten i blew up and i was compassionate
• 1:08:12
  no you were actually in fusion you were around the 6, 7, 8 scale and you weren't recognizing it.
• 1:08:18
  So I have a, it's don't throw petrol on the fire. It's recognizing that when
• 1:08:23
  you're getting elevated to stop.
• 1:08:25
  And again, as I say that we work through the fears is that, oh,
• 1:08:28
  well, is that stonewalling?
• 1:08:29
  Is that giving my child a silent treatment? Is that emotional abandonment?
• 1:08:32
  Because I know what that's like and I don't want to do it for my child.
• 1:08:35
  So I have to over explain now to my child why there's no one.
• 1:08:38
  I'm really sorry. And we're back into the fusion.
• 1:08:41
  Whereas it's learning, no, this is actually healthy limits.
• 1:08:44
  And so learning that is huge because the fear, and understandably,
• 1:08:48
  they don't want their child to feel in any way. And often it's the fear that
• 1:08:52
  I'm going to emotionally abandon them.
• 1:08:54
  Whereas that's, and we look at the ways that that's not happening.
• 1:08:58
  Before we go, maybe I'll give you one really quick example of this.
• 1:09:01
  There was a parent on the course and she had actually very similar ages to yours.
• 1:09:05
  It was like a five-year-old, a three-year-old and an eighth-month-old.
• 1:09:09
  And the three-year-old was having a meltdown when she was getting her to brush
• 1:09:14
  her teeth for bedtime, but the baby was crying and she was going in.
• 1:09:16
  But the three-year-old was, mommy, like, don't leave me, mommy.
• 1:09:19
  And hypervent, like, mommy, don't leave me. And I was asking her, what's your fear?
• 1:09:24
  And her fear was, she said, like, my child's overwhelmed, like it's the end
• 1:09:28
  of the world to her. And I was like, yes, so we have empathy here.
• 1:09:31
  Yes, that's exactly what it's like for the end of the world.
• 1:09:34
  And I was like, and she's like, yeah, and she's thinking that I'm going to,
• 1:09:36
  you know, abandon her if I leave. And she's like, that's what it feels like.
• 1:09:41
  And I said, and are you doing that?
• 1:09:44
  And she went, what? And I said, are you abandoning her?
• 1:09:49
  And because what I'm trying to do is get her connected to her rational brain
• 1:09:51
  because she's in her emotional brain. And she was like, no, I'm just going to get the baby.
• 1:09:56
  And I was like, what just happened to your body there? And she was like,
• 1:09:59
  it's like I've come back into my adult self.
• 1:10:02
  And I'm like, yes. So we have this cycle to recognize when you're going into
• 1:10:05
  that triggered helplessness space and you're mirroring your child's helplessness.
• 1:10:11
  Whereas we can have empathy that she's having a meltdown. This is really tough.
• 1:10:14
  I need to go and get the baby and I'll come back. yeah whereas she was fusing
• 1:10:19
  with the child and feeling like.
• 1:10:22
  I'm gonna emotionally abandon her if I walk down the corridor that's not emotional abandonment,
• 1:10:28
  yeah and a lot of the times it's because we haven't done our own work to really
• 1:10:32
  identify what emotional abandonment was in our childhood because we're still
• 1:10:36
  missing it so when you were talking about getting to that stage that this was abuse,
• 1:10:42
  that takes such work for somebody to be able to fully identify and name that.
• 1:10:47
  And if you can't, that's okay.
• 1:10:49
  If you can identify that this was wrong, that this shouldn't have happened, that this was harmful,
• 1:10:54
  once you can even recognize and name that, that that was harmful,
• 1:10:58
  well now, if I'm just going to get my baby down in the other room,
• 1:11:02
  or if I'm just going to get a glass of water, or if my child's having a meltdown and I'm saying,
• 1:11:08
  I'll be back, you know, I just have to get this lot of water just to bring ourselves
• 1:11:11
  down, wash our hands, you know, to have that break.
• 1:11:13
  I'll be back in two minutes. I'll be back in five minutes.
• 1:11:16
  I'll come back and check on you. That is not emotional abandonment. That is attunement.
• 1:11:21
  But it's also attuning to what we need that we're not going to explode.
• 1:11:26
  And that our needs matter and that they're not selfish and all of those other,
• 1:11:31
  you know, narratives that we've been telling. Okay.
• 1:11:33
  Okay, as we end today, if somebody is listening to this and they can relate
• 1:11:39
  and they're wondering, where should they start?
• 1:11:42
  What would you recommend as first steps to somebody who is dealing with any of this from today?
• 1:11:49
  What I honestly just want to say is, I see you, you matter.
• 1:11:55
  I'm sorry if you're relating any or all of this.
• 1:11:59
  This is so hard. And this, like, when people tell me that they,
• 1:12:04
  you know, they bought the book or they listened to Beyond Survival, the podcast,
• 1:12:08
  I am torn with one going, oh my God, I'm so glad you have the language because
• 1:12:12
  that's so important to be able to have this.
• 1:12:14
  And then this empathy that you relate at all.
• 1:12:17
  So if you've listened to this and related to this, even just check in with yourself
• 1:12:21
  and see what do you need right now in the next five minutes when this podcast
• 1:12:27
  ends. So don't think what do I need for the next week, month or year? What do you need?
• 1:12:31
  And for somebody that doesn't ask themselves that question, that can be alien.
• 1:12:35
  And it's like, I don't know, but I know my friend needs this.
• 1:12:38
  My child needs this. My partner needs this. My mother needs this.
• 1:12:41
  What do you need? And so maybe some examples of what that might be.
• 1:12:47
  Do you feel exhausted? Do you want to lie down? Do you want to go outside and get some fresh air?
• 1:12:53
  Are you thirsty? When have you last eaten?
• 1:12:56
  Do you want to connect with somebody and be like, oh my God,
• 1:13:00
  I listened to this podcast and I want you to listen to it so I can talk about it?
• 1:13:04
  Or do you want to hold this within yourself for the next while.
• 1:13:09
  Do you want distraction? Do you want to scroll on your phone?
• 1:13:11
  ADHD? Do you want a wee dopamine hit and distract from the overwhelm that you've just heard?
• 1:13:18
  Are you angry? You know, do you want to go for a walk like that cortisol?
• 1:13:24
  Do you need to like, are you angry with what you've heard?
• 1:13:28
  Are you sad? Do you, do you need comfort?
• 1:13:32
  And if there's nobody around that you can ask for a hug, even,
• 1:13:35
  can you put your arms, just I'm wrapping my arms around the top of my arms here.
• 1:13:41
  Can you, can you do that for yourself? Can you offer that? Or if there's something
• 1:13:45
  soft? Can you, if you have kids, can you hold a teddy? Can you hold something?
• 1:13:50
  And so these are the small ways. If you can,
• 1:13:54
  Check in with yourself. What do I need right now? And if the answer is I don't
• 1:13:58
  know, okay, I don't know what the answer is right now.
• 1:14:01
  But I'm going to check in again. And it's small ways. And it's small ways to find your no.
• 1:14:06
  Your no with your kids can be a small no at first. Your no in the,
• 1:14:12
  you know, it can be, do you want a large coffee? No, thanks.
• 1:14:16
  Yeah. Not no, thanks. No, because I had a large coffee this morning.
• 1:14:20
  I'm on my fourth large coffee. And so write this over explaining because I don't
• 1:14:23
  want you to feel bad. No, thanks.
• 1:14:25
  So you can start your nose small to see what you would prefer.
• 1:14:31
  A lot of the times the fear is I don't want to be my narcissistic parent and
• 1:14:35
  I don't want to be demanding.
• 1:14:37
  But me and you can talk about, you know, where do you want to go for something
• 1:14:39
  to eat? And you might say, oh, I don't mind. That's up to you.
• 1:14:43
  But if I'm asking you, where would you prefer?
• 1:14:46
  You might prefer Indian, Chinese, Arab steak.
• 1:14:50
  And I might say oh my god well I haven't had this like let's say something else
• 1:14:55
  in six months and I'm only in town once I'd love to go,
• 1:14:59
  so you can prefer something but we can then make a different decision,
• 1:15:05
  yeah a lot of the times the fear is if I even say my preference I'm being demanding
• 1:15:09
  and that means we have to do what I want,
• 1:15:11
  no so try and share your opinion try and get in touch with your relationships
• 1:15:16
  because how we are in one is how we are in all relationships so how you show
• 1:15:21
  up with your husband is going to be how you show up with your friends and your kids.
• 1:15:24
  And yes, we might show more of our true selves with our husband and kids,
• 1:15:29
  but if that fear of conflict is there, if we can't identify our wants,
• 1:15:34
  needs, preferences, and boundaries, that's going to show up.
• 1:15:37
  But with our kids, it's going to, we're really going to, that's going to,
• 1:15:40
  we're going to beat against that.
• 1:15:42
  We're really going to have to look at it. Whereas in the other relationships,
• 1:15:44
  we might be able to ignore to a point.
• 1:15:48
  But it's going to show up. So, yeah, what do you need? You measure.
• 1:15:52
  You deserve to take up space.
• 1:15:55
  And that's such a beautiful reminder, right? That encouragement that you have.
• 1:16:00
  And also that encouragement to, as you said, you know, turn inward.
• 1:16:05
  Look at what we actually feel, what we want, what we need.
• 1:16:09
  It sounds so simple. And I think that's part of the beauty of it as well.
• 1:16:13
  Before we go where can my listeners go to find out more about you about your
• 1:16:18
  book and about the work that you were doing,
• 1:16:21
  so the book is called you're not the problem for anybody in europe or new zealand
• 1:16:26
  or australia it's a purple cover i know for yourself you have the white cover
• 1:16:31
  so here is the purple cover just in case people is like is that two different books.
• 1:16:36
  My podcast is called Beyond Survival.
• 1:16:38
  And so we do, it's a mixture of two different series.
• 1:16:42
  So for one series, we actually get letters in, I'm joined by another psychotherapist,
• 1:16:47
  and we're going through the dynamics to show people how these show up.
• 1:16:52
  And then the other, in the next 10 episodes, it's ways that we can reconnect
• 1:16:56
  to ourself. Like I have an episode on the enabling parent, on the narcissistic
• 1:16:59
  parent, on ways how can I trust myself again?
• 1:17:03
  I'm on social media, Instagram, TikTok, it's, what am I on them?
• 1:17:07
  I don't even know what I'm called. Katie, Katie McKenna, psychotherapist,
• 1:17:11
  I think. Okay, I can also add it below in the show notes. Brilliant.
• 1:17:14
  And my website, I suppose, maybe I should have started with that one.
• 1:17:17
  My website, katiemckenna.ie, that'll take you to everything.
• 1:17:21
  Perfect. Okay. Well, thank you so much. I have really appreciated it.
• 1:17:25
  I, as you can see, could talk to you for a very long time and have so many questions.
• 1:17:30
  I would love to have you back sometime. Thank you so much for taking the time
• 1:17:33
  to be here today. Thanks very much.