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From Fame’s Shadow To Self-Worth And Sobriety · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Danny Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated, a nonprofit organization based in North Carolina that focuses on helping women veterans recover from uh traumas while serving, suffered while serving in the military.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a very special guest with us, Paul Drayton.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he recently wrote a book called Ride or Die Trying: A Life Before, During, and After the Laughter.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: It is a brutally honest and hilarious memoir about addiction recovery, fame adjacent life, and learning how to start again.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: When Paul Drayton briefly finds himself in prison in 2022 after a dangerous driving conviction, he's forced to confront the truth about the life he has been living.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: What follows is a candid and deeply personal journey through addiction, relationships, identity, and recovery.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: From growing up in Sunderland to navigating London's nightlife scene, falling in love with Alan Carr, to discovering what it feels like to live besides fame without sharing the spotlight.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Paul reflects on the highs, the chaos, and the mistakes that shaped his life.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: A late ADHD diagnosis at 50 and determined to rebuild his future, he begins a difficult process of understanding himself and creating a new chapter.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Honest, self-aware, and funny.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is a memoir about accountability, resilience, and the courage to start again.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Paul.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very well, thank you.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for all your listeners for listening in.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you get something from the podcast.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm very good.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a little bit nervous.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm just getting used to this podcast malarkey.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just muddle our way through it, and hopefully we'll um we'll get some really nice stuff out there to help the listeners.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I it's uh, you know, don't be nervous.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is the easiest thing you'll do today, probably.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about your background uh prior to to writing the book.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I was just an ordinary boy.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was the youngest of four uh siblings, all all boys.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I grew up in a town called Sunderland in the northeast of England.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's kind of the story's navigating me navigating my life through um basically, I was undiagnosed until I was 50, which was five years ago.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And looking back on my life, um reflecting on the mistakes and the behaviours and everything like that.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I the the stories about me growing up, um, discovering about my sexuality, and back then, you know, it wasn't really spoken about that much, and so that was fairly difficult in a very macho environment.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then it talks a lot about my love of animals because I do a lot of charity work for animals.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think my best therapists have been four-legged friends.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh talk about animals quite a lot.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I um I'm I've always been a bit of a performer, but shy at the same time, a little bit misunderstood.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So then I uh pursued my dreams of becoming an actor.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I threw everything into it, became hyper focused on it, as us ADHDs do, and then uh auditioned, moved to London, uh, went to one of the top drama colleges in London and uh talked about that.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I then upon leaving drama centre, it didn't actually take off for me as an actor, even though um I signed with a good agent.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think again I was misunderstood then, and uh I think there was a little bit of homophobia going on because in in in that kind of industry there was still homophobic kind of uh tones, undertones, and it's it's all changed now, thank goodness.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But um then I got caught up in the hospitality and catering industry, managing bars, restaurants.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I was navigating through that, and then the party scene, which I got kind of got caught up in uh for quite a while, and all the while, you know, the undiagnosed self-medicating with alcohol, um, which is a kind of a flow that goes throughout the book throughout the book, and then um, and then I married, well, I met my now ex-husband uh in 2008, and that was a turning point in my life.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for a while it was great, and from the outside it seemed, you know, everything was roses and meadows and all that kind of shit, but um behind the scenes uh there was a lot going on, and uh I was dealing with a lot of personal issues, again, undiagnosed ADHD and an increasing um use of alcohol and substances.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'd been in I'd be I talk about this, I'd been to like rehabilitation centers, treatment centres, I'd talked to countless uh therapists, um counselors, and it was just there was no there was no answers for anything, you know, it just didn't make sense.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um as the relationship went on, I was doing a lot of stuff behind the scenes, as I said, but also struggling with addiction.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I then felt as my husband, because he's in the public eye, his popularity became more and more, and I was behind the scenes, behind in the wings, if you like, supporting and encouraging him.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I felt kind of left out in a way.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I get I put my career on hold or my life on hold, which was fine, and I enjoyed doing it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was supporting him, I was building up our family, our uh homes, our lives basically, and I was acting as as his kind of PA.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but then slowly but surely I'd kind of felt as if I was kind of losing myself in a way and diminishing myself.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um my dreams of becoming an actor kind of went out the window for a long time.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then it got to a point where I thought, you know, I want to do something within this industry because I was I was doing other things.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'd built up a proper property portfolio, I had a property development company, I was running a farm, I was, you know, like a lot of the service men and women uh behind the scenes, or um there's there's there's a stronger person behind the scenes, if you like, holding that person up and being there for them, their pillar of support.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then there was times where I felt that um because of my drinking, I wasn't doing my role, which is what I felt I should be, so that the guilt and the shame for that was you know there also, and it was very difficult.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, I I just kind of um we got married and then we got married by a very famous person.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether people know of uh my ex Alan Carr, uh, but we got married in uh Adele's garden in her uh place in LA, and it was all publicly uh spoken about.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I was always in the background, I was never kind of referred to or conferred, you know, I was never included in anything.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was all about my ex and about this and about that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I always felt like I was invisible, if you like.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was it was hard to bear, you know.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't, you know, this book isn't a pity book whatsoever, as you probably read.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very honest and open book, me talking about taking a lot of accountability for all of my actions, but it was it was difficult, and then and then I started to kind of want to become my own person again, and I was in the process of doing that, and then COVID came along, which, like it did for a lot of people, I just kind of pulled the rug from underneath my feet, and um, and then it just kind of went downhill from then, really.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my ex gave a blow, gave me a blow and threatened me with divorce, which came out of the blue.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um anybody in that situation uh will probably probably relate to it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but again, with my alcoholism, I always assumed that I was to blame for it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was the one responsible, you know.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: But at this particular time, things were going well, and I was trying to produce my own podcast.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing some comedy sketches uh on Instagram because I trained as an actor, comedy's my forte.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I love making people laugh.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's um, and I was doing that, and and then this blow came and it just kind of it knocked the wind out of my sails basically, and um, and as you'll read in the book, things just went from bad to worse.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I tried and I tried and I tried to to make things work, but it was just clear that it wasn't going to.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I and and I got divorced about four and a half years ago, and now with the late ADHD diagnosis and everything that's happened, and realizing the kind of relationship that I was in, it's no wonder that I was, you know, drinking.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not blaming my ex because of it, but there was there was definitely some responsibility that had to be taken.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was drinking to change the way that I felt, I was drinking to calm my anxiety, I was drinking to cope, basically.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh yeah, that's that's that's me, and that's what the book is mainly about.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I'm very proud of it.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very proud of the book, and I'd just like to add before we start, I never thought I'd be able to write a book having ADHD because the thought of me sitting in front of a computer typing with all these thoughts whirling was crazy, and I never thought I would be able to do it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But since the divorce, I've got a great team behind me now.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I surround me with the people who you know encourage and support me now.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, and I found an amazing ghostwriter, and we had this massive jigsaw.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I put it out in front of us, and together bit by bit, we came up with this incredible book which has had five star reviews.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I'd I'd like to add, because it has been said, because I am not famous, but kind of known for being married to somebody who's famous, I've been criticized that that you know I'm writing the book like Earl Spencer has been criticized.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether you've seen in the news about Earl Spencer's book about Princess Diana, um, that I I need the money.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the case at all.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, all the profits from the book are going to dog charities because uh you'll probably see in the background, or you might I won't check three rescue dogs sitting behind me, and that's where my that's where my heart is.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So all the dog, all the money, the profits for the book are going to the dog charities.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I really appreciate that, and thank you for that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, taking us through the timeline.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: As you're talking, I I I think a lot of women veterans can relate to a lot of that in the sense the invisibility part.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can't tell you how many women veterans have have been asked, like, oh, so your husband's in the military.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm the one serving, you know.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's like I'm the veteran, yeah.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then being treated like that's BS, that's not true.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's like, yeah, and then the other uh the other thing is for a lot of women veterans, you know, you join the military.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: This for anybody joins the military, you sort of subsume your identity into the military, you stop being in a way unique person, and you're you're a soldier, everybody's a soldier, everybody's a marine, everybody's a sailor, whatever.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you sort of volunteer to do that, but then they get treated like they're not really a soldier, like they're they're they're just like somebody you have to put up, they don't really belong in the military, and that kind of thing.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they so they deal with this sort of gender harassment all the time, and that's awful, that's absolutely disgusting, isn't it?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and and and and often lose their marriages because of the deployments, the being gone all the time, the difficult, you know, just the stress of being in the military, then have a husband or a partner, uh spouse say, Oh, I can't deal with this anymore, and leave, and then now they're a single parent with children trying to do the military, dealing with harassment all the time.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so just just like this feeling of I don't really count, I'm not really a full person, I'm I'm always you know under the shadow of the real warriors and that kind of stuff.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I think you know it's it's and and women don't typically abuse alcohol, but they typically by a larger percentage use like prescription medication and other ways to cope, right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, so there's there's a lot of um you know connections I can make with with your experiences and um the other challenge is you know achieving all that you've achieved, which is extraordinary given an undiagnosed ADHD, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so so when many women veterans have undiagnosed PTSD and mental health issues, but you can't get a diagnosis because as soon as you do, you're definitely out of the military.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to keep serving, you have to like hide it.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and a lot of them, they don't they know there's something happening there, but they're just struggling each day to survive.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think you know that all that is is create some relatability.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think you know exploring how you were able to continue to march on despite all these things is a good conversation for us to have.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I certainly marched on not knowing what was what was wrong, always feeling misunderstood, always feeling left behind, always feeling left out, always feeling invisible.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I was married to my ex, they were the they were the important one, they were the famous one, they were the person that people wanted to speak to.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about everyone, I mean the the the the entertainment industry is really fickle, and there's people who kiss art and you know suck up to people, and it used to piss me off because you know, because you're famous, you used to man that used to demand respect.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that really did irritate me, and I put up with it for quite a long time, but I can totally relate to you know women who are doing an incredible job or even a better job than their spouses, and and then that they can't cope with it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in in reverse, my my ex was um famous, obviously, and he wasn't that famous when I met him, but his fame increased and and I kind of felt left behind.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was never brought into the I I tried or suggested at times, you know, why don't we do this together or why don't we do that together?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was always kind of overlooked or never really kind of taken into consideration.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And my self-worth just kind of diminished really, and but I kept soldering on, I kept soldering on, kept doing things to make me feel good.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: But again, this was all undiagnosed ADHD, and I was just, you know, again, self-medicating.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um not not particularly with drugs, but with alcohol.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I like to party and I did do drugs.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, there was one point in my life where I became I made a stupid mistake and became a drug dealer for 10 months, which I'll talk about in the book.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, that was crazy, but again, that was a stupid ADHD decision that I made.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I can fully relate to um women or anybody who is being overlooked, who whether in in a relationship where the power you know isn't equal and and you're not included, or you're not you've feels if you are.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I remember on many occasions we'd go out for dinner, or there was one time that sticks in my mind.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: We were on holiday and and uh obviously we stayed in really nice five-star hotels because um it was, you know, that we could afford it, and it kind of we I would always check us in, and I would always do this and and uh keep protect my ex so he didn't have to deal with people and he didn't have to, you know.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was my role in the relationship.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went down one morning and I was inquiring at the the concierge of this posh hotel, and I was asking him a question, and he was talking to me, and then my ex appeared into the um into the lobby, and I then got completely blanked, and they the the concierge then carried on the conversation that I was having with them with my ex and started, you know, and then just completely ignored me, and that would happen on a number of occasions, and I just felt like that is so fucking rude of people, and I'd say this to my ex and he'd say, Oh, it's because you're not famous, which I get it, but again, that that that was rude, and that you know if if if that was me in in that position, I would as my ex, I would make sure that I was included, like when I was on the red carpet and things like that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was just stood there like a a spare part and not being in and just feeling you know as invisible basically.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um there was there was uh uh an article in a in a newspaper saying that I felt invisible, and um, you know, the comments that you know incited from people who didn't know anything about me, anything about my life, what I was dealing with, right were just kind of like, well, you are you are invisible, you know, you're a nobody, you're only famous because you're married to this person.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really unfair.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really one of one of the reasons why I've written this book, for me to be seen, for me to be heard, for me to get my story out there.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not a self-help book in by any stretch of the means, it's just out there to let people know what what it was like, not just being married to my ex, but uh, you know, growing up, you know, going through all of this kind of addiction, sexuality, late diagnosis of ADHD.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there was there was one time in 2021 where you know the shit hit the fan, and there was a lot of things that happened, which I write about in the book.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I don't know how I got through it.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was sober for it mainly, but um, you know, if I had carried on drinking or self-medicated, I probably wouldn't be here right now.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, there was in 2021 I was arrested because I made a grim mistake after a really bad incident happened between me and my ex.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I made a really bad mistake, and I ended up in prison because of it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I took responsibility for that because I had to, I had to own it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: But now looking back, you know, it wasn't all of my fault.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't, you know, and it wasn't the the narrative that was painted in the press and in the media because people just thought I was an alcoholic and this is, you know, I I lived this privileged life and I had this and I had that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: That wasn't the case.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: At all, you know, and it was really unfair for me.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it was just I I felt like I I lost myself very much so.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, I'm four and a half years divorced, and uh I'm in a much better place.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing a lot of healing, a lot of growing, a lot of um reflection, and uh yeah, I'm I'm very happy with the way things are, but single, I'm afraid.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well that's that's great, and I'm glad you made it through so that we can have this conversation so you you could write the book.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was having a conversation with my daughter yesterday, she's a budding actress, she's finishing high school, but she really wants to be an actress.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: She she she really is excited about it, she studies it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, most high schoolers are like they're doing theater because they don't want to do like other academic stuff, yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so but she really studies it, she really, she really, you know, tries to understand how you do the business of acting, how you be how you get in character and all this stuff.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so her her teacher was saying to her, she is a great theater teacher, said you could be a director, you could be uh an acting coach, um, because because you're so you know, like immersing yourself into into how this works.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Well, I don't know, I really feel that for myself.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I struggled to really, you know, accept that.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, We all need none of us can really like self our our self-image is always partly built on what others say about us.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's way the way we the way we work as humans.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you can go into, and this is what happens with women veterans.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of what you experience, you go into the military with a good sense of self-confidence, and by the end, because of what they deal with, their self-image is is destroyed, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was was because a constant like diminishing of that that's gonna that's gonna make a difference in your brain, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so so you can, you know, of course, the self-help books, and you can you you mostly create your own self-image, but when you're being when you're being bombarded with that kind of and it doesn't always have to be words, it can be just treatment, the way your treatment, the way you're looked over, that has an effect on your psyche, and it's very hard to to counter that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So so what I what I tell her, what I told her is when you get a compliment, just buy it.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody says, Hey, you're really good at that, just go, oh you know, tell them thank you, I appreciate it.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: But inside, go, yeah, I really am.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I am really good at that, like reinforce it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and if people say something negative, you just you know, say inside, just say that's not true and move on, right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: To help someone like to help integrate into your brain that the messages you want and discard what you don't want, sort of thing.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: How old's your daughter?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: 16.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: She is 17.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: 17.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is she being diagnosed with uh ADHD?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't have ADHD.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: What she does have is um she's um shh actually she she is suspected that she might have a little autism.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but she is she is on some medication and um because uh without it she'll go into panic attacks and that kind of thing.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So okay.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I'm asking is because somebody with ADHD we suffer quite badly from rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now there's a lot of rejection within the acting industry, and it takes a strong person to deal with the the rejections throughout the career.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: The drama center, the the drama college that I went to, they trained us not only to act but to work in props in in wardrobe as to direct and all this kind of the different facets within the um the industry, and and I've worked in those um different areas since leaving drama college as well.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked in wardrobe, I've worked on set, I've worked in design, all that kind of stuff.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's why I was asking, maybe um you know, it and again the rejection of it, and it it I think in today's society, um not much so not so much when I graduated, but there's a lot of stuff now with social media and the way that we should look and the way that we should act and the way that we should behave.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's difficult, you know.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I talked about a lot of nostalgia when I was growing up.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Life was a hell of a lot simpler.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably about the same age as me.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: The the the the simplicity of life when we were younger, but now all of these complications that come into modern day life and the pressures that we live under, and the accessibility to anything that is online and stuff like that, it's really it's really hard.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I I you know my friend was was drink, and so um yeah, I just kind of now I am very, very strong and I understand myself a lot more, and so uh I t I tend to stay away from uh the alcohol kind of thing.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, I think that um you know what I try to talk to people about, and and we had that conversation, like you mentioned with my daughter about rejection.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, a lot of people like there's there's sort of a a philosophy of like manifesting what you want and all that, and like imagining the way you want life to be, speaking into existence, different versions of that, and I think to a degree that is all good, like the way the messages you tell yourself and what you wanna working for what you want, and and and seeing that envisioning.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all for all that stuff, but I said you have to balance it with uh the fact is like you're not gonna get every role.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: The fact is you're you're you're gonna get rejected.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: So going into an audition, there's nothing wrong with thinking I might not get this, I'm just gonna give my best.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's there are roles that are right for me, others that are not, and she's experienced that even at the level she is, because the teacher might say, Hey, you're a great actor, but um this role that you want is not doesn't quite match this other person.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like one time she said, I know you you could do either role, but this other person can't do this role, they have to do this one, so you can do that one.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and and she was bothered, of course, because she really wanted this other role.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I said, you know, she handed you a compliment by saying you could do either.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's just she had, and I said, So a lot of there's gonna be probably a lot of that sort of thing, and if you could just go into it going, hey, a lot of rejection is gonna happen, but I'm gonna get the right roles for me if I just committed.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a strong person and a thick skin to go through a lot a lot of the rejection, and I went through a lot of rejection.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know, I talk about in the book, it didn't happen for me, and so now I'm trying to get back into it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: But since I've kind of um come out of the relationship and I've learned a lot about you know who I am as a person, um I'm I'm quite settled about who I am, I'm not kind of putting a mask on for anybody, and I'm very comfortable.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think anybody who works in any profession or whatever they want to go into, they need to be their true authentic self in order for them to, you know, succeed.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you start pretending that you're somebody that you're not, then it's just not gonna work, and you can't keep up that persona.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think a lot of people in the industry they do put on this public persona um on the outside, and um and it's and I've I've known you know famous people who aren't what they seem on the outside, and they're completely different, you know, behind closed doors, which is fine.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm sure we're all the same.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're quite quiet at home, whatever.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if we go to a party or what we go to whatever, we put on this, you know, bravado or this kind of thing.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of you know, a lot of people in the public eye or whatever, they they they might be manic depressants or dealing with ADHD, like I was, you know.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I used to dread if if there was an event coming up or or like a uh an award thing to go to.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so how I used to deal with it, like my ex did, was knock back a few um strong vodkas and cokes and things like that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, there's a lot of um masking goes on, and so um I think to to I I'm comfortable now with who I am.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's no more mask, there's no more pretending it's just you know me as a person, and I and I'm happy with the person that I am now.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't, and but I I I truly am happy with who I am.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I appreciate what I am I appreciate that, you know.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And reading the book, that's one of the first things that really struck me is this is very raw, this is very honest.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is this is this is like me going, if I went through that, I don't know if I'd tell people, you know, and so the fact that you could you could tell people and be honest, uh, is amazing.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really appreciated that part of it, you know.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and I think, you know, as an alcoholic, I have lied in the past.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've lied to protect people, I've lied to protect myself, I've told some terrible lies.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um for whatever reason, that's what alcoholics do.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: But writing this book, I had to be truly authentic and lay everything out on the on the table to kind of cover myself in a way because I don't I didn't want to, you know, leave anything undisclosed.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's some embarrassing stuff there.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about, you know, when I was on Grindr, um, I don't know whether you've heard of that app, um, it's a it's a dating app.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I talk about my experiences on that.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I I can I I I came out to my mother um as a drug dealer, and there's a lot of stuff in there that people, even my mum didn't even know about.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she read the book and she's so proud of me um for writing the book and being so open and honest.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And in a way, she well, she said to me, she said, I'm really truly sorry that I wasn't there for you, you know, at particular times in your life.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, you weren't to know, mum, because I was putting on this front, I was putting on this, I'm fine, everything's fine.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't, you know, and I was just dealing with it, you know, keeping my head above water and you know, muddling through life the best I could with whatever I had.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and that and I guess that's what we all do, really.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but again, I'll go back to when I was in the relationship, I never felt fully supported, and I never felt fully seen, and I always felt as if you know I was just overlooked a lot, and it wasn't it time uh until times like I would really have to kind of make it really clear that I needed help and I needed some support that um that that that support was given, you know.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it sounds like to me that that for years you were in just survival mode, really.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um fight or flight.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and now you're in a place where you're not it's not about surviving.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're you're trying to thrive, you're trying to to be like who you really want to be, yeah.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And no more, no more facades, no more secrets, just this is this is me.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm Paul.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Take me or leave me, leave me.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's on you, but I'm I'm totally comfortable.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great place to be.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we all want to be there, I think.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: It took me a long time to get there, and and I'll say to anybody who's going through life, whatever the whatever profession they're in, if they're struggling, if they don't know what direction they're going in, if they're in a relationship that they're not happy with, whatever, whatever, whatever's going on in their lives, you know, work on yourself, learn about yourself, look, read the book.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: You might relate to certain things and go, oh, actually, I'm in that kind of relationship, or actually, I might have ADHD.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I'm gay, but it's not that bad to come out, you know.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things that I think will help people become where I am now, which is a lot happier with who who I really am.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um when you when you were writing this, you had to know that people were gonna criticize or people were gonna see it the wrong way, or people were gonna attack you, and all that kind of stuff.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: You had to know it, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: So how how did you like what kept you, what made you do it anyway, or or how did you how did you sort of like think through what you probably thought you were gonna experience, maybe from people, you know, inside the industry or or wherever it may come from?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd experienced that in the past.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know what the media are like, and I know because of the way that the media acts, it can incite all different kinds of responses from the public.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just had to kind of once the book was written, kind of put my uh armor on and just get out there and and and and and go for it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the book went through lawyers to make sure that you know I wasn't saying too much to kind of get myself into trouble or throwing anybody anybody under the bus.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I talk about certain other famous people in the book, and I didn't, you know, those things that that was taken out to kind of protect myself and them in a way, right?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I I knew that I would be opening myself for criticism.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the way that I look at it now is people can have their opinions.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: People are quite welcome to sit behind their keyboards and make ill judgment of of an individual.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I know the people around me who love me and support me know exactly who I am and what I'm about and why why I'm doing it.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the rest can just a big two fingers and F off if you like.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And also, again, if if they want to, if when they're buying the book, the book's going towards, you know, helping rescue dogs, charities and things like that.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um, again, it hurts when I listen or I see these comments, but you know, that's the way that that's the way of the world, I'm afraid.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and I don't know whether you guys had heard um of a girl called Caroline Flack.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: She was a very well loved television presenter, and she ended up taking her own life because of the way that she was portrayed and the way that the media dealt with her, and and um she couldn't see her way out and fortunately touch wood.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've kind of survived that, if you like, and uh I'm here to tell the tale.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why the book's called Ride or Die Trying, because I've nearly uh I've thought about suicide in the past, because as alcoholics, you know, it gets you into that such darker place where you feel like you know there's no other way out.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I've been so strong and resilient, and as I said, I've surrounded myself with people who love me and care for me, and and uh I'm here to tell the tale.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've always I I've often wondered how do certain people in the media sleep at night?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I just I don't know how how they do it, you know.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I really don't either.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I've read stories that um yeah, the press had taken from say, for example, when I was in court, that the first time I was in court, the prosecution read out their report and there was blatant lies in it.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And within me with ADHD, I wanted to shout, hey, that's fucking lies.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, that's that why don't you fact-check that?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why and and I actually the lawyers that I employed were shit, and I spent a hell of a lot of money.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I sold me car to pay for them.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and the the but they were they weren't fact-checked, but that that that was out there in the in the in the press and the media, and you know, and not and not just the way that they've treated me, but you know, some journalists like with other people, you know, I I I've known a lot of famous people, like the person who married me, Adele, and and I read stories about her, and I think, how can you get away with that bullshit?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: But they don't care.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just at the end of the day, it's it's clickbait.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've given and it makes them money.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've given interviews, fairly innocent interviews to journalists, but they've wanted me to say things that kind of a clickbait to make me and they've and they've twisted and they've taken excerpts from my interviews and they've put it into their you know articles or their their things, and they've they've made it look out for me to be the the wrong, the bad person, and I've had backlash from it, really bad backlash from it.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that wasn't my intention at all.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: All I wanted to do was to be honest and open and tell my story and be, you know, and be seen and heard, if you like.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's been you know, it has been quite um quite bad at times.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, all of this on top of everything else kind of has knocked my confidence and it's knocked my self-worth.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I went down and down and down and down and down and down.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but here I am now.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for giving me the platform to kind of be out there and give me my voice and to be seen and heard.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I I I I appreciate it.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you coming on the show.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I I you know I was I've been very excited to have this have this conversation.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and partly because it it sort of gets me a little insight into a world I you know I I've never experienced.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've been military, I was uh in the army for over 30 years, and now I I run this nonprofit and stuff.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so this has been nice insight and to see like people are the same everywhere in a certain way, in a certain sense, you know, and so we often like because because of of all the PR and all the all the different facades that are part of uh uh being famous and Hollywood and entertainment and whatever, um, that that we don't really know how people really are.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: We don't really know, and when I read this story, what I love about this book, I want everybody to get it, is you read this and go, Oh, this is a real person just like me.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is a person who makes really tragic mistakes at times, yet continues to march on.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is a person who's trying to find their identity and they're going through all this stuff, just like me, you know, and and and so I I think it's really a powerful opportunity for people to just you know see another person for who they truly are, because we just like you mentioned, we don't really do that.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: We like put on facade, we put on masks and all that.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I said, from the outside world, you have this perfect life, some pool parties, you know, designer clothes, blah blah blah blah blah.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: I actually started a podcast back into well, I was trying to produce my own podcast.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, I was getting no support or encouragement um from anybody, and I was I was getting overwhelmed by it.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I didn't realize I'd got ADHD at the time and and and I just kind of it didn't take off, but I did record three good episodes with it was called Um How the Other Half Lived.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: How the Other Half Lived.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was talking to people who were married to famous people.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um I won't mention their names, but you know, public figures in England.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um you might I I was supposed to do one with Robbie Williams' wife because Ida Williams, because I went on her podcast with my ex.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it was talking to about what they actually did behind the scenes.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: They've got their own businesses, you know, they they're supporting them, they're they're they're nursing the kids, they're looking after their houses, they're looking after this, they're looking after that.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just, you know, they're they're unappreciated at times.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm sure maybe not by their partners, but you know, a lot a lot of the time they're doing a lot more work than the person that isn't the public eye, you know.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my ex would be on tour quite a lot, and he'd I'd be at home at the end of the day with a glass of wine with the dogs by the fire.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he said to me, Oh, I would just wish I was at home with the dogs, and um, and I was saying, Well, like, I wish I was in a dressing room waiting to go on stage to perform, you know.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, people didn't, well, I don't suppose they they they would get that, or maybe they do.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it it was it was uh it was difficult.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, this book isn't a pity party at all.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just giving my my perspective for some from somebody who was married to somebody who was in the public eye, and it's not all it was made out to be.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was very grateful for the times that I had and you know what I experienced within it, but uh I wouldn't go back to that, not in a million years.
• 45:29
  unknown: Yeah.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so tell us um what you know, so use the use of cope with alcohol.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things you do now to to cope, to to stay um in the right frame of mind, you know, to to to feel good about yourself, to to you know live your best life.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Inject heroin.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I haven't tried that.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's one that's one drug I've never tried.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think I yeah, no, I won't go into that, but um, I haven't done heroin.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I do now is I do I eat healthily, I've always eaten healthily.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of charity work.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I um I don't meditate.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not one of these people who can meditate.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I just I stay I stay off the booze because that is poison and that's the road to decline as I've been down there.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I've been down and down and hit rock bottom.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I've hit rock bottom many, many, many times.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what do I do now?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just I'm just in a better place, and I've done a lot of work on myself, as I've said before.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've done a lot of discovery of certain self-growth.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my dogs are my sanity, my home is my safe haven.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I do charity work.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm working, I've written the book, I've been concentrating on that.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: I did a um I do a lot of animal activism.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Last year I did a uh what's it called?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was called Turn a Blind Eye.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was a campaign to raise awareness on animal testing.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a there's a place in England in Cambridgeshire where they it's an American-owned company which infuriates me and they breed Beagle dogs um purely to be used in laboratories to be tested on for chemicals and whatever.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's disgusting.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been doing a lot of raising awareness on that.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um the camp beagle who've been camped outside this place in England were trying to get it closed down and the beagle's free, so I do a lot of stuff like that.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I'm just I'm trying to get back into the acting.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: I signed with a new agent a couple of years back.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a few auditions, a lot of self-tapes and things like that.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: And again, things aren't quite getting there, but I'm hoping this book will kind of give me the confidence back.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um to do a little bit more comedy, but you know, my my confidence was knocked.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: And finding out that I'd ADHD, it's a it's really difficult to kind of motivate myself at times, but now I understand why I couldn't get motivated in the past.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a lot easier on myself, I'm a lot more gentle on me.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't, you know, in the past I've been like, oh, why can't I do this?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't I do that?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to look at myself as a failure, basically.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: But now I'm a lot easier on myself, and um, yeah, so that's how I'm yeah, managing it.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's good.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I uh I I love that being easier on yourself.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I do teach where I'm counseling people, I I do teach them a couple of things that you're talking about.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is one, you got to be your own biggest fan.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you've got you, you know, you have to be easy on yourself, you have to forgive yourself, you have to say, hey, I'm doing the best I can, whatever.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing, uh, and it's important to to have that.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're all very good at self-criticism.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us really, really suck at like you know, applauding ourselves, you know, and then part of it is uh religious and culturalism, social culturism, where you're not supposed to brag, you're not supposed to whatever.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like um, so being easy on yourself and being your biggest fan is an important part.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing I hear in what you're doing is you're being very active in the things you care about, and that's one of the things I tell people too.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, you maybe have a veteran who's at home, they have PTSD, they can't work, and so on.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're just also just sitting at home and and just like um they're trying to manage symptoms, but it's like they're depressed and so on, because we need as P as humans, we need some kind of activity, something that we're that we're doing that's making the world better in some way, something that we care about.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I encourage them like volunteer, even if you even if it's only one day a week, even if even if you can't, but just staying at home, spinning mentally on how you feel, and and you're watching a lot of uh you know, TV is boring after a while.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can only watch so much TV or play so many games on your phone, and and you're like you're spiraling down.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: How about volunteering?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Being out get out in nature.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm a great um advocate for grounding, and so not so much in the winter, but throughout the summer, get out in nature, walk barefoot in your garden, you know, don't stand and dog shit.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good advice.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, just connect with nature.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know it sounds a bit like airy fairy, but I've got a lovely fir tree in in the thing.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: Just go and it who cares who's watching, just go and connect, you know, learn about how grounding it is, just connecting with nature and feel you have to look after yourself, you know.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Even at times it doesn't feel like you can.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I doom scroll on my friggin' phone far too much because it just takes my mind away from thinking about being in my head, you know, get out in nature and and but as I said, essentially we have to look after ourselves.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the past I've been quite a people-pleaser, and I've always put other people's needs over and above my own, and that's given me satisfaction, but no more, you know.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: If another person was to come into my life, obviously I'd love it and I would give them a lot of love and attention, but you we essentially have to work on ourselves, and it's difficult when you're in a really dark kind of space um to kind of pull yourself out of that frame, the mental like position that you're in.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really hard.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: But stay away from drugs or stay away from drink and and really, you know, push yourself just little bit by little bit and learn about yourself.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as I said before, the situation that you're in and your surroundings, what you do in life, what you're doing in life, what makes you happy, what doesn't make you happy.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we but we all go through dark times and we all need to um love ourselves a little bit more and uh and just push ourselves, you know, bit by bit, and and eventually we'll get there and reach out to people as well.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'd say.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just reach out to people for help.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not very good at doing that, but um, you know, you've got to reach out.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think one thing military people we we really enculturated from day one a basic training about self-sacrifice, right?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh in the military, you you're willing to give up your life or someone else's life for the country, for the community, for you know, whatever, right?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so and and that's fine, that's that's part of the purpose, but there's also um you what I try to teach people, you are just as valuable as anyone else.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you to to do self-sacrifice from a place of they're more important than me, they're more valuable than me, that's wrong.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can choose to sacrifice for some greater good, you can choose to to uh for a moment in time give in to the other person, but it's not an everyday, a permanent always.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, this time my wife really wants to go to that restaurant.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: I freaking hate seafood, but I'm gonna go because she wants to.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: But every time we go to a restaurant, I'm not gonna just subsume whatever I want to what she wants.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be times I go, no, I want a freaking steak, I don't want to eat fish, whatever it is, like that's a minor thing, but but we often get in these things.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the other person is more important, the other person more no, you're as valuable, as important, and you get this one life to live, and they have to be the kind of a person if you're in a good relationship, they can accept it's about you right now, not them, or or it's your turn to pick the or whatever, and if they can't, that's not a good relationship.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, so we have a hard time seeing that, and we go, Well, you know, however, we got to the place of low self-esteem, we we feel like we have to be what they want us to be to keep the relationship, and it's like if that's true, it's not a relationship worth having.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, um, and likely in a lot of relationships, it's not really true, it's just over time the person the relationship has become something that is all about one person.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it can be changed uh if you start challenging that person and say, hey, yeah, you know, for years it's been like this.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: I really need this to change.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about how we can do that.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: If the person can't accept it, then you don't really have a relationship, you have like an ownership type situation.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: There was something happened in 2021, and I regretted it at the time, but I don't now.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I think to me, looking back, that was a kind of cry for help because I was in this situation, in this relationship, and I wasn't happy.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I just didn't know what to do and how to change things, even though I was trying, I was trying, I was trying, even though it might not have been perceived by certain people that I was.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so something happened and it kind of that that kind of changed the dynamics and that kind of started, you know, the process of me getting out of that situation.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, I think we have to look at our relationships very carefully, one with ourselves, but one with our partner.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if that relationship isn't 50-50, and I'm not talking about money, uh, you know, I could never earn as much as my ex.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way I could, I wanted to kind of earn my own money, which I did, but it has to be 50-50, you have to feel supported, you have to feel acknowledged and appreciated, and and if that isn't the case, then you know, get out, get out of the relationship.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because if they if if your partner can't you know look at you as in that way, then what what what what's the point of being in a relationship?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you make these vows, uh your marriage, and you know, for better or for worse, and all that kind of shit.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's yeah, you just gotta really look after your number one and feel appreciated and look at the situation the situations that you're in.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh it's true, it's hard to do, but um yeah, so hard, especially when you're in it.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and and the way divorce works and stuff, you know, that there's a financial cost, and people are afraid of that.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And but the thing, you know, I try to say, yes, it's hard.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: The longer you stay in this relationship, the more you damage yourself, and the harder it will be to to recover.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people that I counsel spent years in narcissistic type relationships, and much like you, right, they have to completely rebuild their whole identity, completely rebuild who they are and what even they care about.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they said, I haven't got to choose what we do or or how things are for years.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how to do that now, you know, that sort of thing.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it so it's like um you the longer you wait, it's like cancer, right?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: The longer you wait for cancer to treat it, the more damage it does.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's so difficult because you know, people might have children involved.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and for the financial aspect, I mean, fortunately for me, we built up, you know, uh due to my advice, we built up a fairly good property portfolio.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it meant that when it we because we were married, which thank God we did get married, you know, I you know was financially okay.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I can't go too much into the the finance details from the divorce, but um you know, I I ended up with you know less than I could have got, but I was happy with that.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: But again, a lot of people a friend of mine in Sunderland, she's going through separation with her uh partner, and she's been with him for 16 years, and I think he's a narcissist and from what she tells me, and she's having to walk away from you know, she's got two kids, and yes, he's he's giving her a house, he's not actually gifting it to her, but he's he's letting her use one of his houses to house his children while uh he's he's in it.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, it it's tough, it's really tough.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, if you if you can't see a way out, then what what what's what's the alternative?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: Stay unhappy for the rest of your life?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right, no way.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Get out of it and and make make plans for yourself and look after yourself and your kids and all that kind of stuff.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's so difficult when relationships uh come to an end for whatever reason, but we need to look after ourselves and protect ourselves, right?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a last question, Paul, because we're we've been talking I could talk for hours about this.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is really good, but I I'll I want to end with a a last question, um, and you can take your time to answer it.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um all that you've been through, all that all that you talk about in the book, again, great read.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hope you get it to where you are now.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Was it all worth it?
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: I wished I mean, I just turned 55, which isn't a bad age.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not old.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: I feel old sometimes when I wake up on the morning and my back's stiff.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's the only thing that it's stiff on morning these days.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um I'm 55 too.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know you yeah.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um was it worth it?
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hell yes, hell yes.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've got, you know, I don't know.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: If as an alcoholic, you never know what's around the corner, you don't know what's around the corner, you know.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: Not just as an alcoholic, you just don't know what's around the corner.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the president in America could press it, could press a button.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: The president, the this the whatever uh whatever, you just don't know.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it was worth it was worth everything that I'd kind of endured and tough at times, but I'm so at peace with myself now, and I'm just you know, I wouldn't say loving life because you know giving up alcohol, giving up this, that and the other, getting out getting a diagnosed with ADHD doesn't automatically turn your your your life into a a story that's amazing, you know.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: We we still get shit thrown at us, you know.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've had to deal with health issues, you know, bereavement quite a lot, you know, in the last two, three years.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, it was it was really it was really worth it.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, I'm so happy now.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: Good, that's great to hear.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much again.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for those who are listening, it's ride or die trying, a life before, during, and after the laughter.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can get it on Amazon in Kindle, paperbook, uh, paperback, or even audiobook.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um, for people that love to to listen while they're in the car, whatever.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I and again, like it supports our little furry friends who who um you know can't advocate for themselves.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I love the work you're doing there too.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I love having you on the show.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a real pleasure, and uh, thanks so much, Paul.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, and thanks to all the listeners for their time as well.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.