Latest / In the Valley of Giants / Taking Psychedelics to Heal - and See G-d? | R.Dr. Aaron Cherniak | ITVOG Ep. 19

Transcript

Taking Psychedelics to Heal - and See G-d? | R.Dr. Aaron Cherniak | ITVOG Ep. 19 · In the Valley of Giants

• 0:00
  Like if, if Hashem, if I could have sworn Hashem appeared to me
• 0:03
  when I dropped acid. So when I consumed
• 0:06
  therapeutically approved substance, like what does that
• 0:09
  mean? And if he said something that
• 0:11
  was the opposite of what my Rebbe said or what the Torah
• 0:13
  said, or, you know, if it's in the Gray area of, you know,
• 0:17
  whatever, Hovis Lavos would disagree with the statement that
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  there's a reshus. But, you know, but if it's in
• 0:21
  the area of, you know, middle ground, right?
• 0:25
  So then how do I translate that into my life when I, you know,
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  I'm a member of this community. I have these standards, I have
• 0:32
  these values. So how do I?
• 0:40
  Hello everyone. Today we have Doctor Aran
• 0:43
  Churniak. He's a clinical psychologist and
• 0:45
  researcher working at the fascinating intersection of
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  attachment theory, spirituality, and psychedelic science.
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  With a PhD from Stockholm University, Iron brings a rare
• 0:54
  multi dimensional perspective to how our relationship shape our
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  mental health. He is dedicated to bridging the
• 0:59
  gap between ancient wisdom and modern clinical practice.
• 1:02
  He's here to dive into the relational side of healing.
• 1:05
  Know what the future holds for psychedelic assisted therapy.
• 1:08
  Enjoy everybody. No further.
• 1:10
  The rabbi gets the smart behind him and the the drug peddler.
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  There's actually a drug that came in right before you.
• 1:16
  So the guys are, oh, he's here. Doctor Tran, you made it.
• 1:21
  Thank you so much for coming. Pleasure.
• 1:24
  So much I want to talk to you about #1 is a hotsy joke, but
• 1:29
  it's not really a joke at all, OK?
• 1:31
  Have you taken any of this stuff yourself?
• 1:33
  I have. OK.
• 1:34
  And I'll share your experiences. It's not every day that you got
• 1:39
  like someone in your office and you're like, hey, have you taken
• 1:41
  acid or psilocybin? In my office, it's quite a
• 1:44
  regular occurrence, really. Yeah.
• 1:47
  Most, most of my private practice are are people who are,
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  you know, either coming from experiences that they have had
• 1:55
  and need to process it in some way or.
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  Meaning trauma. You're not saying they're.
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  No, no. After a psychedelic experience
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  and they want some help, you know, working through it or you
• 2:06
  know, they're curious. Looking into psychedelics has
• 2:09
  made them curious about their own mental health.
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  I've had a number of experiences, all in clinical
• 2:16
  training settings. I've been blessed to work in
• 2:21
  places that have had the permit to administer substances to
• 2:27
  training therapists so that they can have a sense of what the,
• 2:31
  you know, patients are undergoing.
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  So yeah, but I would also, you know, even just to.
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  But you're not. You're not answering my
• 2:40
  question. Well, I would I would you might
• 2:48
  think that I'm further not answering your question, but I'm
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  going to super answer your question in that right off the
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  top. I just want to, you know, say
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  that, you know, psychedelic really just means mind
• 3:02
  revealing. And so, you know, it can refer
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  most people use it to refer to the substances, you know, that
• 3:09
  we're going to speak about. But it also just is any practice
• 3:13
  or experience in which the mind is sort of revealed and you're
• 3:17
  reflecting on the mind. So, so a dream can have, you
• 3:20
  know, psychedelic nature, right, or meditative state, right?
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  A person can, can meditate and have and enter into a trance,
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  right? So, so I just, and, and I want
• 3:32
  to just demystify because even when people take psychedelics
• 3:36
  and, and have a, a, a substance, you know, driven psychedelic
• 3:41
  experience, it's not divorced from the whole spectrum of human
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  experience, right? And so we have all types of
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  experiences that confront us with, you know, distressing
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  contents or open our eyes with, you know, childlike wonder in
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  ways that, you know, we normally don't have access to or.
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  But but I'm not coming from a stigmatized place.
• 4:06
  I would say hope I'm I'm just I'm just asking if you've took
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  taken MDMA. And you may know.
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  So, Simon. So Simon, no, I've I've had only
• 4:15
  ketamine related issue about ketamine being called the
• 4:21
  psychedelic, you know, when it's dissociative or atypical.
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  But no my my experiences have been with ketamine.
• 4:26
  OK. And can you?
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  Share with Breath Work, Yeah. Can you share just a little bit
• 4:30
  of what that was like for you? I I know it's a case study and
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  it's fairly anecdotal, but I find this interesting.
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  As a well, I mean, off the top, the, the, as far as I know, the,
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  the two most supported church findings in the field are that
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  it's not only the substance is that the experience is, is
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  relevant to the effects of the substance, right?
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  So it's not the same way that you take an SSRI and it's just,
• 4:54
  you know, you know, have a dose response relationship, right?
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  There's no experience. So the experience that a person
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  has with a psychedelic is very predictive of the therapeutic
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  benefit or or negative consequences of that experience.
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  And the second or maybe even stronger finding than the
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  experience is that the context, the extra pharmacological
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  factors are very relevant to scaffolding that experience,
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  right. So, so Anodoma my, you know,
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  taking a drug alone in a stairwell when it's raining
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  outside to being in a clinical training environment, you know,
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  with pillows all around, all my needs cared for, you know, trail
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  mix for right after, you know, with supportive partner, you
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  know, it's as part of a journey, you know, where I've formulated
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  goals. Just like in therapy, right?
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  That you're not just therapy is not just, you know, getting to
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  talk with someone, it's, it's there's an agenda here.
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  What do I want to accomplish? What's my kavana for this time
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  that we're spending together and this experience I'm going to
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  have, you know, and how are you going to do that?
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  Right? So so I've had varied types of
• 6:17
  experiences. Why don't you give me one?
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  Yeah, choose that one. No.
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  No, no, not that one. So it's interesting.
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  I'm in the moment they feel called to share, not like the
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  sort of most exotic one because I want to impress upon you know,
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  you, your audience, not just what the experiences is like,
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  but what it really means to make a therapeutic process out of
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  these experiences, right? Because I'm not just a
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  researcher of the experiences, but really trying to map the
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  experiences that people have with the drugs on to the types
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  of processes that happen in psychotherapy.
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  OK, so I, I remember 1 experience in particular where,
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  you know, we're LED through a guided imagery meditation.
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  I feel, I'm worried, you know, that we haven't contextualized
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  enough. But at the risk of that we're,
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  we're, you know, we're LED through a guided imagery
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  meditation. Music starts, which by the way,
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  is already enough to get things going in the mind, right, being
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  blindfolded and, and with music. And but then you get the
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  ketamine can be given either as an injection or as a infusion
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  or, you know, also whoever I received the intramuscular
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  injection ketamine. And you know, it's, it's not
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  clear sometimes when right, when does the experience begin,
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  right? What, and what is happening in
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  my mind? And is that Shia to the, is that
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  Keshia to the experience or just my mind generally?
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  And so in, in one particular time, I was very, very
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  preoccupied with when is it going to start?
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  And am I doing this wrong? And the music isn't great and,
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  and Oh no, it's going to be over soon.
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  And for me, even though that wasn't an exciting experience,
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  it was very clarifying in terms of what it's like to be a
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  caretaker of my mental space, of what it means to create sort of,
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  you know, space in your mind in beyond the sort of fleeting
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  thoughts and impulses and worries and rumination, right?
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  And so I think people don't really get a sense of that in
• 8:59
  their normal life, right? There's so.
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  To be honest, I don't know what you mean.
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  Meaning you there there was a concern when you were having an
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  experience, an episode or however we're going to call it,
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  and you were hyper aware I. Hope I wouldn't characterize it
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  as an episode. You know, the episode we usually
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  use to refer to Depressive romantic episode.
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  But why can't you have a wonderful episode?
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  That's true. I just want to be clear.
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  Yeah, but but you know, and and just you being hyper aware of of
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  how you're doing and how you're feeling.
• 9:27
  Yeah. I'm not, I'm not sure what that
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  I'm not, I'm not sure how that ties into the what the rest of
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  the things that you're saying. Is it?
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  Is it? Perhaps you're implying that
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  under the influence you're able to be more aware?
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  Yeah, yeah, one of the increases of one of the effects of
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  psychedelics is. Well, tell me if I'm wrong.
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  From the little that I know about it, I think what it what
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  it does is it operationally, it distorts the hierarchy of the
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  mind. And so you have a lot of melding
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  of, of, I believe, subconscious ideas that you're able to bring
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  to the forefront that may or may not have to do with your
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  identity meaning. So since since all of that, all
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  that hierarchy is kind of gone and there's free flowing, I
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  would say focus on information that you have internally.
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  You can focus on a heck of a lot more.
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  That's so. I'm struggling because I'm
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  struggling because you're sort of mixing together one of
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  several different neuroscientific accounts of
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  psychedelics with some sort of with some philosophically
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  philosophical ideas about psychedelics that are also, you
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  know, one among many. And so, you know, do
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  psychedelics give us access to, you know, the subconscious?
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  Do they, you know, there's certainly, you know, influential
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  theories that are based on a number of different pieces of
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  what you said. But you know, I think for the
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  purposes of this conversation, just experientially, right.
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  So I remember you had an episode with, you had an episode with
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  it. Was a great.
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  Episode with with with Doctor Friedman recently where you're
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  talking about guilt or shame. And so I think a lot of the time
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  our stories around about who we are as people or, you know, our
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  worth, those are so closely intertwined with how you
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  experience the world. You know, it's like wearing
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  glasses that you forget are on your face, right?
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  So you're you're living your life through this prism of, you
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  know, a story about that you tell yourself without realizing
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  that maybe not everybody has that story, or maybe I don't
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  even I'm not a prisoner to to that story, right.
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  And so, you know, whether it's because you have, you're
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  accessing, you know, a pure level of consciousness, you
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  know, and putting that in scare quotes and, and whether it's
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  because you're flipping the weighting of cognitive priors
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  and predicting of the top down and the bottom up.
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  But whatever is happening experientially, what people are
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  reporting is a greater openness. It's unraveling that narrative.
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  No, we're not. Being restricted to the
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  narrative, that's what I mean by that meaning.
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  It's the nature. I would say it's experiencing
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  some level of separation and freedom from that narrative
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  because narrative is a really powerful device, right?
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  We something that one of the things that makes us unique is
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  human beings is the size of our, you know, higher cognition
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  areas, you know, over animals that also have a frontal,
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  prefrontal cortex. But it's not, as, you know,
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  proportionally as big as us. So we have more than animals, a
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  capacity for composing A narrative, having an identity
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  for, you know, higher order values and delaying
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  gratification because of those values and forming community,
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  right? And so that's a tremendous power
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  that we have, right, to cope with life stressors.
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  People, you know, lean on their values or their story or their
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  family identity or all these different or being part of omics
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  throughout, right. And at the same time, you know,
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  it's the same capacities of our brain.
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  That's that that fuse us too closely sometimes with their
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  narrative, right. If I'm, if my, if my narrative
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  is, is so intertwined with, you know, who I am in my job, right?
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  And then I get laid off and I can't find work in that field,
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  right. So then who am I without that
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  thing? Or if I, if my narrative is only
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  right, obviously people's family life is, is super is usually
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  very core to their personal identity.
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  But you know, hospitalized someone, you know, a person you
• 13:49
  know, is going through a divorce or they lose, you know, their
• 13:53
  loved one. And then all of a sudden it's,
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  well, who am I beyond that, right?
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  So sometimes the same abilities that help us create meaning and
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  and cope or, you know, make use our experiences for, you know,
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  self development are the same things that get us into trouble
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  sometimes, right, Right. The reason that Michelle a
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  trauma can can feel even worse right is if I could have done
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  something right, you know, something happened.
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  I could have done something prevented it.
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  Oh, I was supposed to. I was supposed to be there,
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  right. Or, you know, if it's tied up in
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  national identity, right. October October 7th wouldn't
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  have been so difficult if we weren't so wrapped up in what it
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  means to be a part of Amisolem, to be a Liam and to be right.
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  That's part those are part of the things that parts of the
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  parts of the processes that on the one hand can give us
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  resilience, right being part of a nation and having a history
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  and a trade and a right although.
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  How does that help by by October 7th?
• 15:03
  No, I'm saying it's. It's not, it's a what we would
• 15:07
  call pluripotent amplifier, right?
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  It's it's something that is new when we learn together, it's
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  like the government minded, right?
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  So, so it's a it's like an amplifier, right?
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  So so I on the one hand. What, what?
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  What is? I would say so.
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  So on the one hand, being identifying so strongly with my
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  people, right, with my country, with.
• 15:35
  Who created that responsible trauma?
• 15:37
  Ken, on the one hand, helped me be resilient, right?
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  I don't feel very strong, but Bonjour, I belong to people that
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  has a story to tell and a mission to do.
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  And we're here for each other and you know, it's a global
• 15:50
  community and blah, blah, blah, you know, and a sham will keep
• 15:53
  his promise about that's on the one hand.
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  On the other hand, like if, if I have no that that same, those
• 16:01
  same narrative abilities can lead me to well, if Hashem has
• 16:05
  made these promises, and if we have this mission to do, and if
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  we have this history, then how are we in this place?
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  Right. That can set up for a lot of
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  tension. And you know, it's called the
• 16:16
  literature of spiritual struggles, but spakos and and
• 16:20
  you know, hashed there, you know, crisis of meaning, right.
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  So then perhaps it would have been more accurate instead of to
• 16:26
  say the unraveling of the hierarchy of the mind.
• 16:28
  Maybe it's just the, the removal of of all rules to a certain
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  extent. No, I mean, it's, it's
• 16:34
  destroying the narrative, or at least the ability to, to walk
• 16:36
  out of it. There are no red lines.
• 16:38
  I don't belong anywhere. I don't not belong anywhere.
• 16:41
  It's, it's like it's it. I'm just trying to pare back
• 16:43
  what you're saying. To me, what I'm hearing sounds
• 16:45
  like I get to walk out of me and and look at everything.
• 16:50
  To an, to an extent, it's, it's being able to say, wait a
• 16:53
  second, what you know, what are all these, you know, you
• 16:57
  experience some sort of distance from your habitual thoughts in a
• 17:02
  way that gives you a different appreciation for what it's like
• 17:07
  to exist in your mind. Right.
• 17:09
  So, so on the other hand, when I'm, when I'm in an experience,
• 17:12
  so I can, I'm not, I might for a portion of an experience, you
• 17:16
  know, have what's called an ego dissolution experience where I
• 17:22
  observe sort of, I feel like there's a breakdown of I'm no
• 17:26
  longer experiencing reality as me, or maybe I'm being absorbed
• 17:29
  into a, you know, the universe or Hashem or whatever.
• 17:33
  But for the 55 other minutes of the experience, you know, I'm
• 17:39
  hearing the guy on the mattress beside me, you know, groaning or
• 17:42
  singing along with the music and I'm, you know, feeling the, the
• 17:46
  breath of the facilitator who's supporting me.
• 17:49
  So I'm not like, I just, I want to, you know, when you say the
• 17:56
  mind has no parameter, I can't remember exactly your phrasing,
• 18:00
  but it's not as if the mind is no parameters, right?
• 18:03
  And, and if I if, if during the experience, if I'm, you know,
• 18:09
  why, if we think about why these experiences are meaningful,
• 18:14
  often it's because they are making us think about, you know,
• 18:19
  memories or, you know, relationships, dreams in a new
• 18:23
  light, right. And, and so to, to that extent,
• 18:28
  I'm not removed from all of what I am ahead of that experience
• 18:36
  I'm having the experience is not happening in a vacuum.
• 18:38
  It's happening in my context, right.
• 18:41
  And so some of that, that was actually some of my doctoral
• 18:44
  research is, is, you know, do our early relationships right
• 18:48
  the same, the same way that our our formative relationship
• 18:54
  influences our parents, our rebbies, our friends or
• 18:57
  whatever. That can have a really strong
• 19:00
  influence on who we are, how we develop, whether we are
• 19:04
  resilient people or vulnerable people, how we deal with
• 19:07
  rejection, how we deal with connection, all these things.
• 19:10
  And so my doctoral work really explored, do do the internalized
• 19:16
  feelings of security, do do all those formative relationship
• 19:22
  influences on who I am as a person generally, Does that have
• 19:26
  an impact on how I experience? Like, you know, might I be more
• 19:29
  likely to have positive or a negative experience based on
• 19:34
  these sort of core personality factors?
• 19:38
  Right. And, and there's a lot of
• 19:39
  research showing that spiritual experiences that, you know,
• 19:42
  experience with davening, experience with Shabbos.
• 19:44
  Well, I'm sure, I'm sure it's augmented.
• 19:46
  So, yeah, so, so if if not that, you know, I'm not.
• 19:54
  Freud was right about some things and wrong about some
• 19:56
  things. One of the things that was
• 19:58
  insightful is that we relate to the world in ways that are
• 20:04
  internally scaffolded, right. So without detracting anything
• 20:10
  about Hashem, you know, in and of himself, Hashem Himself,
• 20:15
  right? We often relate to Hashem.
• 20:20
  In ways that are highly influenced by our formative
• 20:23
  relationships or the things that we've learned, whether they be
• 20:28
  conscious or or, you know, more automatic associations, right.
• 20:35
  I feel myself a little all over the place right now.
• 20:38
  But, but you know, I, I really want to situate the conversation
• 20:42
  about psychedelics within this sort of broader framework about
• 20:47
  all types of experiences, right? There's research on dreams in
• 20:49
  the same way research on. I don't feel you being eclectic
• 20:54
  at all. I think I think that again, I
• 20:56
  just, I'm repeating it back as I want to make sure I understand
• 20:58
  it, but I think I get it. It's it's to the extent the
• 21:01
  ability to view yourself and your own experiences in a light
• 21:06
  that's maybe less constrained by the things that you usually are
• 21:09
  constrained by. Yeah, Yeah.
• 21:11
  You know, but that can have also a rebound effect also, right?
• 21:13
  Like let's say I have a really, you know, an amazing perm right
• 21:17
  where I am. We're going to put, we're going
• 21:21
  to not go into the whole subject of alcohol at the moment, but
• 21:24
  it's. Funny because I was going to ask
• 21:25
  that. I'm happy to go there, but for
• 21:29
  the moment, if we can shelf alcohol, yeah, let's say I have
• 21:31
  a really, you know, because perm is coming up and it is a good
• 21:34
  perm, but you know, I can have a really meaningful perm in which
• 21:39
  I experience myself as liberated from all of the labels that I
• 21:43
  used to put on myself and all the limitations, right?
• 21:46
  That's actually one of the understandings of, of Kunidre,
• 21:49
  right? Also to link the Yom Kippur
• 21:50
  perm. But is that all the limitations,
• 21:53
  all the Nidarium, all the, the constructions that I would put
• 21:55
  on myself, right, That I experienced some liberty from,
• 21:58
  from those things, right? I, the way I come back from
• 22:03
  Perim, right? I, I cause ultimately we come
• 22:06
  back into our normal waking consciousness, right?
• 22:09
  And so sometimes there's sort of rebound effect or, or there may
• 22:13
  be a rebound effect of now that I've had this Perim, I'm now
• 22:18
  more enlightened than everyone else in my sheer right.
• 22:21
  I know better than, than, you know, this person in my
• 22:26
  community, right? Why?
• 22:28
  Would you feel that way? No, so after you, I mean, I'm
• 22:32
  not pathologizing it, but you know, imagine, you know, being
• 22:35
  Moshe BAE, No, and you're coming down from RCNI and you have the
• 22:38
  rays of light, you know, beaming from your countenance.
• 22:42
  And how do you then come back into the into the mecha, right.
• 22:46
  And again, not to equate lahave deal between Moshe, I just
• 22:51
  don't. Understand the Nimshall meaning
• 22:53
  versus personally, yeah, I find all my perms very, very simple
• 22:57
  that they're very pleasant, but they're very eye opening.
• 23:00
  I feel like there's a lot of it's funny, a lot of the things
• 23:04
  that you mention here about psychedelics personally by perm
• 23:07
  I feel do come out at least I find it very therapeutic.
• 23:09
  It's great. But I don't I've never felt any
• 23:13
  like superiority complex after experiencing that.
• 23:16
  But you're saying maybe? That you're aware of knows that
• 23:18
  that I'm aware. Of it could be that I'm aware.
• 23:19
  Of so I think, but I think that's the you know, and and not
• 23:23
  every sort of therapeutic experience is an eye opening
• 23:26
  transformational like life, you know, not just changing in in
• 23:32
  small subjective ways of my but like really life changing,
• 23:36
  right. So let's say that, you know, a
• 23:38
  person you know goes to after the army, they go to Brazil,
• 23:43
  they go in some ayahuasca retreats.
• 23:45
  I should say, I don't know if I said this off the top, not
• 23:47
  giving any clinical advice or instruction or post scanning or,
• 23:53
  you know, psychedelics or consult your lawyer, consult
• 23:57
  your therapist. You know, this is a very you're
• 23:59
  doctor. But let's say you know, after
• 24:02
  the army, you know, you are, are looking, you know, you're,
• 24:06
  you're, you're doing your rite of passage of travelling and you
• 24:09
  have to find yourself in ayahuasca circle.
• 24:11
  And then you come out of that experience with this renewed
• 24:15
  sense of, you know, of, of feeling ultimate love and, and
• 24:22
  that, you know, people are more similar than different, no
• 24:28
  matter where they come from and all these things.
• 24:31
  And you had, you know, you come back to Israel and, you know,
• 24:35
  the reality is a little bit more, you know, we're not in the
• 24:38
  Middle East. We're not currently on a kumbaya
• 24:40
  ayahuasca retreat. You have to function in the real
• 24:43
  world, right? So or you know, you, you or say,
• 24:47
  you know, you, you come back after a tish or a perm Suda and
• 24:54
  you know, you and your child wants to play like, you know, a
• 24:58
  small game and doesn't, you know, frankly doesn't care about
• 25:02
  the, the tish or the perm Suda and the way that you know,
• 25:05
  matters to you. And, and so then, you know, like
• 25:08
  all of life is a balance between sort of the experiences that we
• 25:12
  have and the meaning and that we make of it and the things that
• 25:15
  we build around our experiences. So then how do I sort of, you
• 25:21
  know, integrate the life that I want to?
• 25:25
  How do I, you know, integrate the experiences that I've had
• 25:27
  and who I want to be the values that I want to espouse with the
• 25:30
  sort of life that I want to lead?
• 25:33
  We often encourage people not to make rash decisions, you know,
• 25:35
  within, you know, meow meow time of the experience, right,
• 25:43
  Because, you know, the experience can be euphoric and
• 25:48
  and and make you less aware of the consequences of changing
• 25:53
  your life in a dramatic way. There's actually a lot of
• 25:55
  really, really important research now about insights, the
• 25:57
  feeling of insights and when this was one of the earlier
• 26:00
  mechanisms suggested in psychedelic literature to
• 26:03
  explain why psychedelics can help.
• 26:04
  Because you go into this experience, you have an insight
• 26:08
  and you it changes you in some way for the better.
• 26:13
  And there's a lot of research on like aha moments that
• 26:16
  psychedelic researchers maybe didn't, weren't aware of when
• 26:19
  publishing those first articles, that the feeling of aha, I have
• 26:23
  an insight is not at all. So, you know, correlated with
• 26:28
  the truth of, of said insight, which is a really important
• 26:32
  thing to, you know, to know, right?
• 26:34
  Have you ever had a finish that you thought was like super,
• 26:36
  super solid? And then you look at your notes
• 26:39
  the next day and it's like, what was I thinking, right?
• 26:43
  That's probably partially why the therapeutic process with
• 26:45
  psychedelics is so crucial. Like you can't just take
• 26:48
  psilocybin and say, Oh well, the research is out there that.
• 26:51
  Right, no, so that's what I was saying before about the context
• 26:53
  and the circumstances are super. You know, the the my colleagues
• 26:59
  and I are working on this model that sees the experience in the,
• 27:03
  you know, sort of centre of a broader process of the
• 27:07
  preparation and. Within the clinical setting.
• 27:10
  Well, I mean, we could. I'd imagine.
• 27:13
  Are you telling me not? Well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not,
• 27:17
  I'm not encouraging everyone to go and have, you know anyone to
• 27:21
  go into, you know, underground illegal settings to do anything.
• 27:25
  However, there's reason to believe that that the way it
• 27:29
  works in clinical settings is very similar to how it might
• 27:32
  impact a person in non clinical settings.
• 27:35
  Right. There's.
• 27:35
  So, so, so I'll say, I'll say two things back to that.
• 27:38
  So Pub Med did a umbrella mental analysis review of a bunch of
• 27:43
  different analysis in 2024. I'll, I'll put the, the link in
• 27:47
  the show notes for you guys. And they reviewed psilocybin and
• 27:51
  DMA a little bit of Alaska and one or two other others as well.
• 27:57
  DMT and I'm missing, missing one more and I don't know what it
• 28:00
  was, but you'll see it in the study anyway.
• 28:02
  But they were able to establish that they thought that there was
• 28:05
  sufficient evidence for short term clinical therapeutic
• 28:08
  processes for for people that were having severe issues with
• 28:13
  certainly depression and PTSD. And I believe that for
• 28:18
  depression and PTSD, for depression, the most effective
• 28:22
  therapeutic process that they used short term with psilocybin
• 28:25
  and for PTSD was MDMA. But you can look at it there
• 28:29
  but. I just want to say for the
• 28:31
  record, I'm not if you have even the authors of this, this study,
• 28:37
  you know, but. General pub Med is pretty well
• 28:40
  respected, but I'm I'm not an expert at all.
• 28:43
  I just like, you know, knowing which article you're talking
• 28:45
  about, but I but I would say that I would, I would want to
• 28:48
  rush to add, you know, psilocybin is now the subject
• 28:52
  of, you know, phase three clinical trials in the US and
• 28:55
  and Europe. MDMA.
• 28:59
  I was recently actually rejected by the FDA this past year but is
• 29:05
  probably going to be applied for approval.
• 29:07
  Will probably be applied for again soon.
• 29:10
  I think maps the main or I can't remember what they're called
• 29:13
  now. Not Lake House.
• 29:15
  But the point is that that's in a clinical setting, and even
• 29:17
  then it's only short term, short term use.
• 29:21
  Well. But that's like .1 in terms of
• 29:24
  like just just the data, the little amount, the very little
• 29:27
  amount of this of this, you know, umbrella study that I saw.
• 29:29
  But but add on to that your whole your whole narrative, OK
• 29:33
  here, which I think was was great and makes a lot of sense.
• 29:36
  And I think is, is definitely much safer than taking on your
• 29:38
  own is are you in that stairwell by yourself when it's raining
• 29:41
  outside and you're depressed, right?
• 29:42
  And it's dark, OK, etcetera, etcetera.
• 29:44
  Being in a clinical setting with someone who's on who understands
• 29:47
  this process somewhat, what is actually going to be doing to
• 29:49
  you and it's a safe space and help you unpack all those
• 29:52
  experiences. I think it's if anyone's going
• 29:54
  to go down the street, it's crucial.
• 29:56
  I wouldn't just give someone some psilocybin.
• 29:57
  Be like enjoy buddy. Right.
• 30:01
  No, Absolutely. Absolutely and again, there's
• 30:04
  different aspects of these experiences that, you know,
• 30:07
  might be more closely associated with short term improvements,
• 30:11
  but other things that are, you know, tied to longer term, you
• 30:15
  know, improvements. Look, we if we zoom out for a
• 30:17
  second, we have a big problem in the world today that more people
• 30:22
  than materially we're much better off obviously than than
• 30:26
  previous generations. But there are unprecedented
• 30:30
  levels of, you know, mental distress, you know, whether it's
• 30:34
  depression, anxiety, whatever. And not everybody responds to
• 30:40
  the treatments that are available.
• 30:43
  And so it moves us, you know, in the mental health field to
• 30:46
  explore, you know, other candidate treatments.
• 30:49
  And so I want to be clear, psychedelics are not the only
• 30:51
  one on the on the horizon. And there's, you know, other
• 30:55
  treatments that are being studied, but even a short term,
• 31:00
  right? I mean, the, the, the research
• 31:02
  about Academy for depression, for example.
• 31:04
  So one of the advantages cadamine may have for depression
• 31:09
  and suicidality over SSRIs, you know what's been conventionally
• 31:14
  used to treat depression is that instead of needing 6 to 8 weeks
• 31:19
  for the SSRIs to have an impact and one of the main side effects
• 31:24
  in the immediate aftermath of starting SSRIs maybe being
• 31:27
  suicidal ideation, which is interesting because it's the one
• 31:30
  thing that you write. So ketamine has immediate or or
• 31:34
  or rapid acting effects. However, if I recall correctly,
• 31:43
  work about ketamine shows that suicidality, but there are
• 31:51
  persisting effects for suicidality after ketamine
• 31:56
  treatment but without psychotherapy accompanying it.
• 31:59
  The depression, the mood, the mood difficulty comes back
• 32:03
  within like 2 weeks, right? So I mean, and this is one of
• 32:08
  the things I try to tell my, my patients and to communicate
• 32:11
  whether I'm, you know, discussing psychedelics with
• 32:14
  them or not. My job as a therapist, as a
• 32:17
  psychologist is, is not to help them, you know, feel better,
• 32:22
  right, but to help them better feel like investment does that.
• 32:26
  Like it's not, I'm not Therapy is not about, you know, getting
• 32:30
  an infusion of good, good vibes, right?
• 32:33
  It's about understanding what's important to me in my life,
• 32:39
  making sort of implementable ways of, of building a life
• 32:44
  that's meaningful and, and valuable, you know, worthwhile,
• 32:48
  that feels worthwhile even when it is not pleasurable, right,
• 32:52
  Right. And developing like good habits
• 32:55
  that are in my control, right? My mood is not people's mood.
• 32:59
  We are horrific at predicting how we will feel in certain
• 33:03
  situations, and our mood is not in our control.
• 33:08
  Our brain is not wired to necessarily help us feel good
• 33:14
  and you know, sustainable ways unless we do specific things to
• 33:17
  cultivate, you know those things.
• 33:19
  One of one of the most robust predictors of mental health is,
• 33:26
  or I should say one of the most robust predictors of suffering
• 33:29
  is the rigid expectation that I should want to feel good, right?
• 33:36
  So, so I think it does because if you are, if you are, you
• 33:40
  know, narrative is, is, you know, life is, is meant to, life
• 33:44
  should be about maximizing pleasure, right?
• 33:47
  Whether that's hedonistic pleasure or, you know, even
• 33:50
  every day should be like a overwhelming spiritual
• 33:53
  experience, right? So you're set up for
• 33:56
  disappointment and frustration. Sounds like a horrible life like
• 33:59
  that's not I feel like life, and I tell this to my students all
• 34:02
  the time. Life is the story of a hero.
• 34:04
  That's what you want life to be. Life is about is is becoming
• 34:07
  Moshe Reveno. It'll have to off of Dallas.
• 34:09
  It's Fredo from the beginning to the end.
• 34:11
  Lord of the Rings. OK, it's Luke Skywalker at the
• 34:14
  beginning and the end of the films.
• 34:15
  It it's it's about it's about being a better person and and
• 34:18
  for life to have meaning. That's not it.
• 34:20
  I don't think I don't think that's a hedonistic experience.
• 34:23
  I I don't think that person should be trading, playing with
• 34:27
  their infant daughter. OK, which maybe not as hard
• 34:30
  heading as, you know, maybe taking a whole bunch of LSD,
• 34:33
  right? No, but I mean that.
• 34:34
  I I would point out though, that, you know, the sort of hero
• 34:39
  journey, which by the way is some is a framing that people
• 34:45
  bring to psychedelic experiences as well.
• 34:47
  But if I were to live my whole life, you know, you know, trying
• 34:55
  to emulate Moshe, Frodo, Luke Skywalker, I think that's a very
• 35:00
  sort of egocentric way of, you know, what's that?
• 35:03
  Because the world is much more complex than my story and.
• 35:11
  You know, why do you say that? No, it's not.
• 35:13
  You have a story. You have you have a hero
• 35:15
  process. Because you have a hero process,
• 35:17
  and I have a hero process and Joshua has a hero.
• 35:19
  Process. Why can't everyone be hero?
• 35:22
  We're only not great because we make ourselves not great.
• 35:26
  I'm not, I'm not commenting on, I'm not trying to say that
• 35:29
  people shouldn't strive for things and, and you know, have.
• 35:38
  I'm really curious what you mean because I actually have no idea.
• 35:40
  Why should not everyone be no? No, I'm not saying people
• 35:44
  shouldn't be a Europe. You should.
• 35:45
  People should. People should strive for
• 35:47
  greatness and develop, you know, replicable.
• 35:50
  That's what that's what life is. There's nothing else.
• 35:53
  It's following God and God requests everyone to try their
• 35:57
  best, which is to be the most to be the biggest version of you.
• 36:02
  Now that might be working in the back of a pizza shop.
• 36:03
  This may be but but it there's there's a hero process.
• 36:06
  It's not about looking where I will feel the best.
• 36:08
  No, but I'm just, I'm just commenting on what the
• 36:11
  experience of someone is who right a a narrative, right that
• 36:15
  we were talking about glasses as a muscle for a life narrative,
• 36:17
  right? And so and so it's really easy
• 36:20
  to see the dangers of having of not knowing, noticing the
• 36:24
  glasses of self criticism, of shame or whatever.
• 36:27
  But there's also glasses of I'm a hero.
• 36:29
  And and so I'm not commenting. I'm, I'm not saying people
• 36:32
  shouldn't strive for greatness, but I am saying that if the, if
• 36:36
  the mode that I'm living my life and relating to other people is,
• 36:42
  and I'm not aware of this narrative that I'm a hero.
• 36:45
  And you know, you could easily get into a place where other
• 36:49
  people are obstacles to my hero's journey, right?
• 36:53
  Or you know the small details in life are you know are.
• 36:58
  Give an example. If my if my life story is to be
• 37:07
  a world eminent expert in, you know, psychedelics and mental
• 37:12
  health and I in order to do that I, you know, you just.
• 37:16
  Spent 17 hours in the office. What's your wife?
• 37:17
  Doing no and I need to and I need to, you know, get on time
• 37:22
  to a podcast interview and then my car, you know, my car
• 37:25
  decides, you know, it's not it's not collaborating with me in the
• 37:28
  way that I would want it, right. So I, I try to be punctual and
• 37:36
  that's part of my, you know, but at the same time, I, I still
• 37:41
  have to sit with myself, live with myself in my car as I am
• 37:45
  make as I'm arriving late to a set meeting, right.
• 37:50
  And so if I, if I'm so fused with my, you know, pursuit of
• 37:56
  greatness that, you know, I don't know if your viewers would
• 38:01
  have seen the movie Leo, it's great animated family movie, but
• 38:06
  there's a song from that family movie called You're not that
• 38:09
  great. You know you're great, but
• 38:11
  nobody. 'S Oh, I think nobody is.
• 38:13
  I understand so great, so let. Me.
• 38:16
  Let me. Open up a little bit more what I
• 38:17
  was saying, Yeah, A person isn't Moshe Rabeno.
• 38:20
  A person should strive to be whatever his Moshe Rabeno is.
• 38:24
  That's what I'm saying. I think a moment that someone
• 38:28
  believes that they are God's gift to, you know, the universe
• 38:31
  and there's nothing else there, I think that that's quite
• 38:34
  damaging. If that's if that's what you got
• 38:35
  out of it, then I agree. I agree with that.
• 38:37
  What I am saying is that I think life is all about I am where I
• 38:40
  am right now. I'm I'm 13 and narcissistic and,
• 38:44
  you know, I'm late to everything and I eat too much or whatever
• 38:46
  it is. And and yeah, it's not OK that I
• 38:49
  feel those things, but that's OK because I'm at the beginning of
• 38:51
  my life and I have my whole life to climb up this ladder of being
• 38:54
  the best version of me possible, and then that's nothing.
• 38:56
  You're just talking about growth and a process.
• 38:59
  Yeah, but that's but that's what that's but that's what a hero
• 39:00
  is. No one's born a hero, right?
• 39:03
  Every, every, every hero story that means anything to us.
• 39:05
  And, and I mean this in a, in a, in a story way as well, Like any
• 39:09
  hero that's meaningful to us is because they became that this is
• 39:11
  one of the reasons why people don't like, but you know, these,
• 39:13
  these, these biographies of Gadolin, which I actually really
• 39:16
  do like for a separate reason. I do think there's a lot,
• 39:18
  there's so much that we can learn from the Gadolin, even if
• 39:20
  it appears when they were so young, because it it really is.
• 39:23
  Whatever. We'll talk about that just for a
• 39:24
  time. OK.
• 39:25
  But but, but here usually is they're born and then they
• 39:28
  become something. Moshe Rabina wasn't born.
• 39:30
  Moshe Rabina. Yeah, there's Madrasham that
• 39:31
  there was light, but Moshe Rabina at age 85, it's not
• 39:35
  Moshebeno age 35, right, right. So I I feel that that life
• 39:39
  really is, it's all. It should be.
• 39:41
  I mean, Moshebeno is a great example for this because
• 39:43
  Moshebeno, right? Often we are, you know, Hashem
• 39:48
  calls us life calls us to be heroes in ways that we wouldn't
• 39:52
  have anticipated, right? And so I can have a really
• 39:55
  strong narrative that, you know, my top kid is XYZ, right?
• 40:02
  And. I mean, there's a great, you
• 40:05
  know, the, the, the Hassid goes to the rabbi and the rabbi says,
• 40:07
  you know, at the Tisch. Is that a?
• 40:09
  Real word hassid. Hassid.
• 40:12
  Oh, Hassid. I thought you've seen some
• 40:14
  talent. You're about it, You know the
• 40:15
  Hussi, the. Hussid goes to the fibrangen,
• 40:18
  and the rabbi says the fibrangen life is a waterfall.
• 40:22
  And the rabbi and the Hassid is, is, you know, meditating on, on
• 40:27
  this, you know, Imrah of the Rabba.
• 40:29
  And he's trying to flip his whole life on his head and, you
• 40:33
  know, live his whole life by this statement.
• 40:37
  And, you know, the years pass on and the rabbi is, you know, ill
• 40:41
  and going to pass away. And so the hassid, you know, is
• 40:43
  zoku, the athitas with the rabbi in the hospital.
• 40:46
  And he's a rabbi. I've been, I remember what you
• 40:49
  said this Tish many, many years ago.
• 40:52
  And I've made my whole life about, please, before you go,
• 40:55
  just clarify for me what the meaning of life is.
• 40:58
  A waterfall, you know, I want you to know I've lived my whole
• 41:02
  life by my understanding and like I want this is my last
• 41:07
  chance to imbibe all that Rebbe has to offer and the and the
• 41:10
  Rebbe goes, OK, so life isn't a waterfall, you know, so so
• 41:15
  Mosher Beno, you know, I don't this is one of the things that I
• 41:19
  love about learning Tanakh is, is like, what is the experience
• 41:23
  of Moshe Bennu growing up in meets him?
• 41:25
  I'm not knowing, you know, maybe he knew, maybe he thought he
• 41:28
  knew what his tough kid was and then being totally, you know,
• 41:32
  surprised by. So I think many people have an
• 41:35
  experience like that, you know, where they they live their life
• 41:37
  in a particular way and they have some experience or.
• 41:40
  I completely disagree with you, although I wish you were right.
• 41:42
  I think most people just live through life just.
• 41:44
  Experiencing the moment people who are in this, you know
• 41:47
  Yuhenis Gula subset of. We all should be that though.
• 41:50
  That's my point. Like life is not about just
• 41:53
  getting day by day, it's just getting through this day.
• 41:55
  Life is about this day is so important because it is.
• 41:57
  It is one more step in climbing up that mountain.
• 42:01
  And there's tops of that mountain and you plan to get
• 42:03
  there even though you won't, but you plan to get there.
• 42:05
  But but I think again, the the the it's so important to bear in
• 42:12
  mind that, you know, even climbing up the mountains are
• 42:15
  not linear, right? Mountains have, you know, side
• 42:17
  twists and turns. I remember my family went on
• 42:21
  home. I hiked this one mountain that
• 42:24
  it sort of twisted around and you on one side, you were
• 42:26
  exposed to really strong winds that made you feel like you were
• 42:29
  going to fall off. So, so you know, even growth is
• 42:33
  so not linear. In this way.
• 42:38
  And, and we have not just one mountain, right?
• 42:40
  I'm not just trying to be great as a professional or as a
• 42:44
  learner or as a family person. I'm climbing several mountains
• 42:48
  at once, you know, and, and, and at the same, you know, and this,
• 42:53
  these pursuits, these strivings for greatness are not severed
• 42:57
  from, you know, having experienced the war, global
• 43:02
  pandemic, you know. And and they all pay into that.
• 43:06
  I wouldn't want people to hear you know what, what you know,
• 43:09
  Rebbe, you know is is is is saying and you know, start to
• 43:13
  experience the people in their life as obstacles in their, you
• 43:17
  know, mimosh. It's me and their Tafgid and it.
• 43:22
  May also be that. Easy to fall into that trap.
• 43:24
  I, I, I do agree that, that, that absolutely, but I think.
• 43:28
  And, and I also don't want to there.
• 43:30
  There is a lot of dignity in, you know, especially during
• 43:34
  parts parts of our life just getting by day by day, right.
• 43:39
  In other words, I might experience myself right now as
• 43:43
  getting through a very difficult kufa and you know, I, you know,
• 43:48
  I feel bad that I can't, you know, do more, learn more, have
• 43:53
  more patience, whatever. And my, you know, spouse and my
• 43:57
  children might not be aware of any of that and still be able to
• 44:01
  experience me as, you know, as a wonderful, you know, father or
• 44:08
  you know, that my Co workers might still experience me as a
• 44:10
  valued member of the team. And so I can be so inter, I can
• 44:19
  be so fused with my narrative, right, that I'm not even
• 44:23
  thinking about, well, how do other people perceive me, right?
• 44:27
  I might have one, you know, we, we have an internal dialogue,
• 44:31
  right? And we usually, usually our
• 44:35
  inner voice feels very authoritative, right?
• 44:37
  That's how I make my decisions in life, right?
• 44:39
  As I follow my inner voice of, of what I think Hashem wants for
• 44:43
  me or, or what I think is important.
• 44:46
  And I think it's important to realize every once in a while
• 44:49
  that my inner dialogue is not, is not is, is influenced by the
• 44:58
  experiences that I've had, right?
• 45:00
  And so maybe because of the experiences that I've had or
• 45:03
  whatever, or if I'm under, you know, if I'm under.
• 45:06
  That's who you are, though. Who is who you are?
• 45:08
  You are who you are. You are your inner dialogue.
• 45:11
  You are your. Class.
• 45:13
  You are you are. You are your.
• 45:14
  Well, you're, you are your experiences.
• 45:17
  You're your experiences, right? That that inner voice.
• 45:19
  No, I'm not my experiences. To to some extent, I think you
• 45:22
  are, I mean, you experience certain things which do color
• 45:25
  how you view the world. This is true.
• 45:26
  OK. But the way that you make
• 45:28
  decisions in life is what is the I hope is what is the best way
• 45:33
  for me to follow Ratanosham. Nothing else really matters.
• 45:35
  Other people matter because they should come into that decision
• 45:38
  on how we're going to further a connection to, to, to get
• 45:41
  closer, to get closer, to got to be a better person.
• 45:44
  Everything else is ancillary. So, so yeah, you, your
• 45:48
  experiences help color your world.
• 45:50
  That's true. But it does all come down to
• 45:52
  what do I think is the best way for me to get close to God?
• 45:55
  You can ask advice, but it comes down to you.
• 45:57
  God is not. How could you?
• 45:58
  How could you expect to make a decision to be better in life
• 46:01
  and it not be based on what you think is best ultimately,
• 46:04
  because you are yourself, right? I'm, it's not, it's not rosacea
• 46:07
  that's trying to be me or my wife that's trying to be me or
• 46:09
  my kids are trying to be me. I'm responsible for being the
• 46:12
  best person I can be. Yeah, so I'm trying to say that
• 46:15
  that, you know, there's cognition and metacognition,
• 46:18
  right? So there's the thoughts that I
• 46:19
  have and then there's the metacognition is thinking about
• 46:22
  my thoughts, right? Not just what do I, you know, I,
• 46:29
  I come away with, I come away from an interaction with someone
• 46:32
  with a certain interpretation of, of how the interaction went.
• 46:35
  And that's the cognitive thought.
• 46:37
  That's the cognitive right. And then I think, well, what do
• 46:39
  I think about that thought? Okay, yeah, yeah, sure.
• 46:41
  I had this interpretation, the interpretation, A reflexive
• 46:45
  judgment rather than for sure, really what I believe, right.
• 46:47
  Yeah. So I think that, you know, we
• 46:54
  are sometimes so bought into the fleeting thoughts or the
• 46:57
  cognition, right? The sort of nephesh level,
• 47:01
  right? The sort of, if we were to say
• 47:03
  that, you know, that the nephesh right, is a product of anything,
• 47:10
  that an animal also has feelings, basic thoughts,
• 47:15
  drives, impulses, right? And my intellect, that which
• 47:21
  animals don't have, right, is I'm able to create a space
• 47:24
  beyond my immediate experience, right?
• 47:28
  Something that can help a mental space that can help me regulate
• 47:31
  my drives, can help me reappraise my thoughts, can help
• 47:37
  me, you know, all those things. So then I can.
• 47:49
  You'll get it. You'll get it back.
• 47:51
  Habits. That's what I'm trying to say,
• 47:52
  that we're not our experiences because because like, you know,
• 47:57
  if you think about any people who have any of these famous
• 48:00
  stories. We tell singularly, singularly,
• 48:02
  of course, we're not just our experiences, but I think you're
• 48:05
  look, a person has a person has an inner voice and that inner
• 48:11
  voice. I'll go even a step deeper.
• 48:13
  There's a oh man, Spastamus, you know me, I'm not going to quote
• 48:19
  Hasidim, but this, this has said I'm I quote, I quote this all
• 48:22
  the time. Yeah, and this is Meet Gabeira.
• 48:24
  It's always. OK, there we go.
• 48:27
  So the SAS Ms. has something amazing and it's so true.
• 48:30
  So true. So he says by by Avram when God
• 48:36
  tells him Levika Lyrica. So so now we have Avram
• 48:41
  receiving an Avua go to Eric T So this is it wasn't an Avua.
• 48:44
  I have a movie now. It's a boss call that comes out
• 48:47
  every day that calls out all of us to go there at this all
• 48:50
  because that's where we belong. And the question is, is the Jew
• 48:52
  going to tap into it or not? Which I think is the explanation
• 48:55
  of these awesome Birthright trips where you have like a guy
• 48:57
  with the Mohawk, you know, with like all these like tattoos, you
• 49:00
  know, all. And he's just after two days
• 49:02
  like, yeah, I'm gonna live in Israel, man.
• 49:03
  Right. Like where does that come from?
• 49:05
  I think people called the Pentelid.
• 49:07
  I think that's that boss call. That's that's.
• 49:09
  That's what I'm saying is, is that no matter what.
• 49:11
  Let me build, that's fine, but let me build that.
• 49:13
  So you know, I say I use the same thing to explain Dorham
• 49:17
  Abel. Like they didn't Hakush Broku
• 49:19
  punished the entire universe, the entire world for not acting
• 49:23
  ethically or morally, even though they didn't have any
• 49:25
  direct code. There was no Torah Bible given
• 49:27
  to them to tell them what to do, but yet they were liable.
• 49:30
  And one of the answers multiple, but the answer that I like to
• 49:32
  believe is based off of this fasemas, which I personally say,
• 49:35
  which is they should have known better.
• 49:36
  Like, you know that, you know, excuse my language, but you know
• 49:41
  that raping your, your friend's wife is wrong.
• 49:43
  It's horribly wrong, It's messed up.
• 49:45
  You know that stealing is wrong. You know, that night not being a
• 49:48
  cut is wrong. There's certain things that are
• 49:49
  just so basic right. And, and I think that is that
• 49:52
  inner, that's by inner voice that, that knowledge of truth
• 49:56
  that God put within us. So when we're trying, when we're
• 49:59
  trying to make decisions in life, I think that the trick is,
• 50:01
  is we should be tapping into as much of of that of that of that
• 50:05
  voice as possible. Now experiences I just want to
• 50:08
  keep clear. I just want to clarify.
• 50:09
  Yeah, sure. When I say inner voice, inner
• 50:11
  dialogue, I'm not talking about sort of this intuitive sense of
• 50:13
  morality like you're, you know, conscience.
• 50:16
  That's what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the sort of way
• 50:19
  we narrate our lives and self talk and and that's what I'm
• 50:23
  referring. To OK, fine.
• 50:24
  So then I completely agree with you.
• 50:28
  That's yeah, that's what to me that.
• 50:30
  Is I try to make that my inner voice though this thing that
• 50:33
  I'm. Talking about, right?
• 50:34
  Right. I feel that other ways of
• 50:36
  looking at the world are just are in my way.
• 50:39
  Right, But also some moral questions are less obvious than
• 50:45
  not. You know, assaulting my
• 50:48
  neighbor. 'S wife for sure for.
• 50:49
  Sure, right. And so when it comes to that, so
• 50:52
  the way that my moral sense, the way that my that my higher
• 50:56
  cognitions will come into my experience of myself like these
• 51:03
  deserve deft management of the complexity, right.
• 51:09
  So it's not if I, I don't know, you know, someone is, is
• 51:15
  thinking about making Aaliyah and they have, you know, elderly
• 51:18
  parents that are dependent upon them, right?
• 51:20
  So you have conflicting priorities here, right?
• 51:23
  And so that person deciding right now, I'm not making
• 51:27
  Aaliyah because I'm devoted and I'm, I'm, you know, embodying
• 51:31
  this other value that is also important, right?
• 51:34
  And, and everyone should speak to their post sake or whatever.
• 51:37
  But, you know, I don't think it's, it's desirable for a
• 51:45
  person making that sort of complex decision to view
• 51:48
  themselves as an Avarian because they couldn't do what they're
• 51:53
  no, obviously no. No, no, it's again.
• 51:55
  But that's what it goes back to us saying before.
• 51:57
  It's all about trying your best, my father always said.
• 51:59
  And it's like the wisest thing he's ever told me.
• 52:00
  It's guide in my life is don't do better than your best because
• 52:05
  you can do your best. Yeah.
• 52:07
  But don't do better than your best, because you can't do
• 52:11
  better than your best. God is not demanding perfection,
• 52:13
  and if he is, what perfection is, is trying your best.
• 52:15
  So I don't think. I think, I think I could go the
• 52:18
  rest of the day trying to understand what what you just
• 52:23
  said. I think that one within at
• 52:25
  least, you know, DBT dialectical beta therapy, we take it as like
• 52:32
  right as a basic assumption that everyone is always doing the
• 52:36
  best that they can with the tools that they have.
• 52:38
  Yeah, I don't think that at all. So, so I think that, you know,
• 52:43
  if someone is not doing as best as they, you know, in other
• 52:48
  words, if someone is not doing better than they're currently
• 52:52
  doing Kaneera, they don't have the Kaleem to do better than
• 52:55
  they're currently doing, right? If they had the Kaleem to be
• 52:58
  doing better right then they would be doing then they would
• 53:01
  use those caleum to do better. I don't know if.
• 53:04
  It's I really don't OK, could be I've I can't think of a
• 53:07
  statement I disagree with more, but that's just me right That
• 53:11
  you know, precise I think. No.
• 53:12
  But also, but also this, this whole framing of the
• 53:14
  conversation of like, you know, doing our best as if best is
• 53:19
  sort of an aggregate score of the projects that I'm engaged in
• 53:25
  or my. Not necessarily.
• 53:26
  Some of those things might have to fail, meaning MIT look as a
• 53:30
  personal example. So on a deep level, I love
• 53:34
  learning, I love, I love shining, I love the Gemara, I
• 53:38
  love the Rishonim, I love the halafa.
• 53:39
  There's so much that I want to be doing.
• 53:41
  I can't think of a year that I've learned less recently after
• 53:45
  becoming a Roshi Shiva and a rush Cole and all these other
• 53:48
  things which I don't need to say right now.
• 53:49
  It's like, it's like I feel like I'm constantly being pulled out
• 53:51
  of the basement and sometimes I lose sight of that and I get
• 53:55
  frustrated because I'm like, I wish I was, but it's not about
• 53:59
  doing best in learning, which is 1 particular project that I
• 54:01
  have. It's about doing what I think
• 54:03
  God wants me to do in the grand scheme of things.
• 54:06
  So it's less, it's less about balance.
• 54:08
  I don't really like balance. It's more about doing exactly I.
• 54:11
  Don't know if I say balance. No, no.
• 54:13
  I. Didn't need it.
• 54:14
  I was preventing. I was performing something that
• 54:17
  I was going to say, which sounds like balance.
• 54:19
  Yeah. So what I'm saying this is it's
• 54:20
  not about, it's not so much about balancing because
• 54:22
  balancing implies like there's the right level of something
• 54:26
  objectively, right? OK.
• 54:27
  And some of it's about doing exactly what God wants you to
• 54:30
  do, which which means that there's an infinite amount of
• 54:33
  something you could be doing practically or not doing.
• 54:36
  It's all what God wants you to do.
• 54:38
  So I'm, I'm not trying to balance, I'm trying to do
• 54:41
  exactly what God wants me to do. Doing more than that is
• 54:43
  completely inappropriate for me. Doing less than.
• 54:45
  That's completely appropriate for me.
• 54:47
  Well, so you asked me about my psychedelic use.
• 54:49
  I'm interested in the psychedelics you've taken to
• 54:52
  understand exactly what God wants from you, you know, other
• 54:56
  than what's in the, you know, clinician.
• 55:01
  So, so that's what I'm saying is, is, is you know, you haven't
• 55:03
  had. That experience, I feel like
• 55:05
  most of the time I can tap into this.
• 55:07
  It took a bit for me to get used to it, but like, you know what's
• 55:11
  right? A lot of the time we try to
• 55:13
  shove it out and we try to think a lot, but we don't.
• 55:16
  I feel like one of the things that we ignore the most is like,
• 55:18
  what? What do we really feel is right?
• 55:22
  There's a lot of hush bonus we make, but we never listen to
• 55:24
  that inner voice. So, so even even now, the sort
• 55:29
  of like, you know, a lot of this conversation has been framed
• 55:35
  about doing, you know, doing our best, growing in this way.
• 55:39
  And I think, you know, especially because of how fast
• 55:42
  the world moves nowadays. And also, I think culturally
• 55:47
  there's some elements about, you know, being from where there's,
• 55:51
  you know, more of an emphasis on sort of doing right, being being
• 55:57
  goal oriented. And where as I think part of our
• 56:01
  ability to do and maybe something even a little bit more
• 56:05
  vital is first learning how to be and like observing your
• 56:10
  facial expressions. Why?
• 56:11
  I'd say this, but I think. That's a huge thing to say.
• 56:14
  But I think that I think I. Love Christina, by the way.
• 56:17
  To be to be able to have clarity about what we're doing and how
• 56:22
  to do and and then to savor the fruits of what we do and even
• 56:26
  just to like exist as a person, you know, with a mind and and be
• 56:30
  sane, but. But that's is that be what
• 56:35
  you're saying is by the way. Crucial.
• 56:36
  It's. What you're saying is totally
• 56:38
  crucial because yeah, if you get a lot, look.
• 56:40
  I think that's, you know, coming back to, I think that's
• 56:42
  something really not just psychedelics, any therapeutic
• 56:46
  processes is learning how to exist at the Nexus of, of all
• 56:50
  the, the, the projects that we're engaged in, right?
• 56:53
  Like, like, you know, the, the mode that you have to be in as a
• 56:56
  Rasha Shiva is very different than the mode that you have to
• 56:59
  be in as a parent, right? There's a spouse, you know,
• 57:01
  being a spouse is, is, is about way more than you know, did we
• 57:05
  pick up the kids from school? Hopefully, right.
• 57:08
  Did we I'm looking at them, you know, did we, you know, balance
• 57:12
  the the budget? Did we, you know, get groceries?
• 57:16
  Did we avoid fighting? Right, Avoiding fighting is also
• 57:18
  not the same thing as Shawn Bias, right?
• 57:20
  So and and learning right. So, so there's the the the doing
• 57:25
  of did I do my, you know, daily, you know, goal?
• 57:30
  Did I you know, did I understand the, the Rashonda that I
• 57:35
  learned? Did I did I whatever find an
• 57:41
  opportunity to to not just learn, but you know, did I do
• 57:44
  all these things right? And also what is the sort of
• 57:47
  organic, you know, sort of in the Revolt B center building?
• 57:50
  100%. Right.
• 57:51
  Of of of what? How?
• 57:53
  Who am I becoming? But that's not Kosovo Bravos
• 57:56
  like being Kosovo. No, the whole thing, he spots it
• 57:59
  up in the in the introduction. I love this the way he, I mean,
• 58:02
  I love everything that he does, but this is amazing.
• 58:05
  This Hovis hive arm, which you focus on a lot, which I think is
• 58:07
  really important when we're younger because you need to have
• 58:09
  rules. You can't live in the life of
• 58:10
  anarchy. You have to have a Lakos.
• 58:12
  But he says, but that's not the ICAR Decker's Hovis Olivos,
• 58:15
  which is like your understanding of a Karish Barako and his medos
• 58:17
  and how you act and how you think.
• 58:19
  So for sure. Yeah.
• 58:20
  It's like learning the Rashona is is crucial.
• 58:22
  But what did the Rashona mean? No, really.
• 58:25
  Well, what were they coming from?
• 58:27
  Like that's so. That's definitely was a pioneer
• 58:32
  in this, you know, discipline of, you know, character
• 58:35
  development and, and working on midos and and, you know, real
• 58:40
  subtleties of a vote as a sham. OK, you know I have to interrupt
• 58:43
  you because we're running out of time and we got derailed with an
• 58:45
  interesting conversation. I have to ask you the stuff that
• 58:47
  only you can answer, at least right now.
• 58:49
  Landing around OK. Let's go from so I understand
• 58:54
  why psychedelics you've explained in a therapeutic
• 58:58
  process would be incredibly beneficial as it helps further
• 59:01
  analyze your life in a an augmented way.
• 59:06
  I understand why that would also perhaps serve in a religious
• 59:09
  setting as well, as it helps you analyze your relationship with
• 59:12
  the Cutters portal and and perhaps some.
• 59:13
  Things Maybe, maybe not. Maybe maybe it's, you know,
• 59:17
  setting you up. Maybe it's sort of a type of
• 59:21
  walking into the parties experience that, you know, did
• 59:25
  not leave everyone unscathed, right?
• 59:27
  No, but that, but I would imagine that goes both ways.
• 59:29
  No meaning meaning just like there are dangers it within the
• 59:33
  religious realm as you analyze yourself also therapeutically.
• 59:37
  Like you could look at yourself as an evil monster from hell
• 59:39
  like you know there's but is that not true?
• 59:41
  Did I get that right, that in the sense that whatever pluses
• 59:45
  and minuses there would be in the therapeutic process?
• 59:47
  Yeah, I would imagine that you'd be able to mirror those things
• 59:49
  in a religious setting as. Well, I'm not advocating for,
• 59:53
  you know, the name of Shevatova style kabura where people are,
• 59:58
  you know, imbibing illegal things without support etcetera.
• 1:00:04
  However, I think that. You know, especially when people
• 1:00:07
  grow up and they feel like, you know, that the concept of God is
• 1:00:11
  being loving and compassionate is alien to them, right?
• 1:00:14
  For whatever reason, this would be an experiential way to
• 1:00:18
  potentially have a type of experience.
• 1:00:20
  But people also on these substances have opposite
• 1:00:23
  experiences where you know, you did this thing wrong and God
• 1:00:29
  appears to you and you're always going to be, you know, you're
• 1:00:32
  condemned for this thing. Shiva Bonham Shiva.
• 1:00:34
  Right. I mean, I was right, right.
• 1:00:39
  So, so, so, so I would also say that, you know, and especially
• 1:00:44
  because some of these substances are used in contexts that have
• 1:00:49
  ideological, not ideal, like a theological framing, right?
• 1:00:53
  So, so, you know, consuming ayahuasca is off is sometimes
• 1:00:58
  done together with sort of ritual elements that, you know,
• 1:01:02
  maybe are conflict with, you know, Torah.
• 1:01:05
  And, and even if not right there, I mean there are, I
• 1:01:10
  worked in Bnebroch for a couple of years there, you know, there,
• 1:01:12
  there are things happening there and in other places.
• 1:01:14
  And you share that at the end of the episode.
• 1:01:16
  OK, great. So so no, but you could, you
• 1:01:24
  know, the same way that you can have a, a perm experience that
• 1:01:28
  you come away from it and say and have a, a, a false insight,
• 1:01:32
  right? You feel like you're on cloud 9,
• 1:01:34
  right? And that sham really wants
• 1:01:35
  whatever from you. And it's something that's, you
• 1:01:39
  know, like a shop that's a material material isurium type
• 1:01:42
  of conclusion, right? So I think one of one of the
• 1:01:46
  things that makes me passionate about being in this space, not
• 1:01:48
  only as a, you know, as as a mental health professional, but
• 1:01:51
  also as a musmach, is that I think that there's a schleicos
• 1:01:56
  of if these therapies are going to be accessible, right?
• 1:02:01
  If if the market is going to have now new therapies where
• 1:02:05
  people are meeting God, So there should be an understanding of
• 1:02:08
  like what are the needs of an observant Jew, right?
• 1:02:12
  I published a paper last year about what is the likelihood of
• 1:02:17
  people converting, you know, to a different religion if they're
• 1:02:21
  a lifetime psychedelic user, right?
• 1:02:23
  And so, and how does that differ from other life events, right,
• 1:02:26
  that make that, that might cause a person to to convert.
• 1:02:30
  And so I think that what's really crucial is, you know,
• 1:02:36
  like we did a couple decades ago when we sort of understood that
• 1:02:42
  CBT and other therapies need to be translated to different
• 1:02:47
  cultural frameworks, right, to make them tolerable by niche
• 1:02:51
  populations. So, you know, this is also
• 1:02:54
  mental health intervention that needs to be ignoring for a
• 1:02:57
  second the party scene and the naturalistic use.
• 1:03:01
  But in the therapeutic framework, people need resources
• 1:03:04
  to understand, like if, if Hashem, if I could have sworn
• 1:03:07
  Hashem appeared to me when I dropped acid.
• 1:03:09
  So when I consumed therapeutically approved
• 1:03:13
  substance, like what does that mean?
• 1:03:15
  And if he said something that was the opposite of what my
• 1:03:17
  Rebbe said or what the Torah said, or, you know, if it's in
• 1:03:21
  the Gray area of Russia, you know, whoever Hovis Lovos would
• 1:03:23
  disagree with the statement that there's a but, you know, but if
• 1:03:26
  it's in the area of, you know, middle ground, right?
• 1:03:30
  So then how do I translate into my life when I, you know, I'm a
• 1:03:34
  member of this community, I have these standards, I have these
• 1:03:38
  values. How do I Right, right.
• 1:03:42
  You have. A question.
• 1:03:47
  We can shift it now a bit anyway, so, but I mean the
• 1:03:49
  question really was. I want your listeners to know
• 1:03:53
  that was sort of my background before coming to psychedelics.
• 1:03:55
  It's been about a decade studying the connection between
• 1:03:58
  religious beliefs and behaviours and their connection to mental
• 1:04:01
  health. And psychedelics really are sort
• 1:04:04
  of the intersection of my interest in in that and in
• 1:04:08
  psychotherapy, right. If you think about sort of
• 1:04:10
  meaningful experiences that may or may not have a therapeutic,
• 1:04:15
  you know, effect like that's, that's the framing that I that I
• 1:04:20
  come to this. To repeat the question though,
• 1:04:23
  and I think you answered it quite well, No, no, just want to
• 1:04:25
  make sure was are there just like they're pluses or minuses
• 1:04:28
  in a clinical setting for therapeutic process
• 1:04:31
  psychologically for religious use as well?
• 1:04:33
  Oh definitely. I'm not advocating for the yet.
• 1:04:38
  Wait again, the question was are there pluses and minuses?
• 1:04:41
  Oh yes, absolutely there are pluses and minuses to
• 1:04:44
  experimenting with drugs. But it's.
• 1:04:47
  For religious exploration. But it seems that there are more
• 1:04:50
  minuses in the The way that you make it sound is that it's far
• 1:04:52
  more dangerous in the religious realm, but in.
• 1:04:54
  I don't know how to make a calculus, you know, especially
• 1:04:58
  not knowing who's listening, but there are.
• 1:05:01
  Well, I'll make it simple. There are potential benefits and
• 1:05:03
  potential risks and to to embark on this path requires a lot of
• 1:05:10
  support and a lot of awareness and and you know, yeah, is what
• 1:05:22
  is what I would say I don't know if.
• 1:05:25
  Are there more dangerous in in this realm than than the
• 1:05:29
  therapeutic? Realm.
• 1:05:30
  Oh, absolutely. That's that's what I'm after.
• 1:05:32
  Yeah, the answer is absolutely. OK, well, because you're not
• 1:05:34
  only playing with, I mean, again, I think I think that
• 1:05:39
  assuming that, you know, that you were in therapy with a
• 1:05:44
  competent professional, we're already in a different, you
• 1:05:49
  know, kufa about how much the average therapist knows about
• 1:05:53
  culture and religion and all these things.
• 1:05:56
  We're we're not still in an age where there's a therapy culture
• 1:06:00
  of anti religiosity. My humble opinion, I don't view
• 1:06:08
  the therapy as a dangerous place for if that was an implication.
• 1:06:13
  I don't view therapy as a dangerous thing for religious
• 1:06:17
  spiritual exploration. I think that that especially the
• 1:06:26
  way that psychedelics are most of the time practiced, there can
• 1:06:32
  be a a lot of hazards. I want to shout out my, my
• 1:06:37
  friends and, and Rabbi Abrams, Zach Kamenetz, who in the United
• 1:06:41
  States has an organization, Shaffa Psychic Jewish
• 1:06:44
  Psychedelic Support and without what's the word, without
• 1:06:50
  pushing, you know, any agenda about psychedelics.
• 1:06:53
  They're creating resources for supporting people who have had
• 1:06:57
  psychedelic experiences for them to not feel like they're outside
• 1:07:01
  of the Jewish people or outside of, you know, Yadus, you know,
• 1:07:06
  and to, to try to integrate these, these worlds, you know,
• 1:07:10
  because I think, I think you can feel very lonely when someone
• 1:07:14
  has had an experience, you know, with a drug or without, you
• 1:07:18
  know, without a drug. And then they feel like not
• 1:07:20
  understood by the people in their life or by the world and
• 1:07:23
  socially. So, you know, kudos to Rebezac
• 1:07:25
  and everyone you know working in in the field of helping people
• 1:07:29
  find resources. Are are any of these
• 1:07:32
  psychedelics addictive? This is a sheer in and of
• 1:07:39
  itself, so. So there's different categories
• 1:07:43
  of psychedelics. Ketamine probably has among this
• 1:07:48
  like, you know, it's the highest addictive danger.
• 1:07:54
  And then there have been recent, you know, media articles about
• 1:07:57
  it, the clinics where I, the clinic where I've worked where
• 1:08:01
  ketamine is administered, you know, has very clear guidelines.
• 1:08:07
  And we specifically mentioned these dangers and we, you know,
• 1:08:10
  structure the therapy in ways that diminish this risk.
• 1:08:14
  But it's a risk and even when sort of right to distinguish
• 1:08:22
  serotoninergic psychedelics, mushrooms, zealous tea from
• 1:08:25
  alcohol or heroin or cocaine. So there isn't the same
• 1:08:30
  biological, you know, chemical dependence on these substances,
• 1:08:35
  you know, But if you, if you could take a substance and be in
• 1:08:39
  a blissful, right, imagine your framing of psychedelics is that
• 1:08:43
  you take a substance and you're feeling bliss.
• 1:08:46
  So, you know, there's this like a type of psychological
• 1:08:49
  dependence where I I can only when we were talking before
• 1:08:53
  about am I looking for a way to, to feel better or better feel
• 1:08:59
  right. And so if I, if my life is
• 1:09:01
  about, I need to, in order to do this thing, I need to enter this
• 1:09:07
  place. I can't do anything unless I
• 1:09:09
  ever once in a while re up my spiritual bless, right.
• 1:09:14
  I need AI need a re dose, right. So then that can be especially
• 1:09:18
  when it's very dangerous. Yeah, yeah, it's very dangerous
• 1:09:21
  to you know, the Rambam talks about, you know, when the Rambam
• 1:09:24
  talks about being habituated to things, right.
• 1:09:28
  So it's best not to be right. There's, there's addictions like
• 1:09:31
  illicit drugs and there's addictions to things like, you
• 1:09:35
  know, caffeine and, and you know, cigarettes, as well as to
• 1:09:38
  food and, and behavioral addictions, you know, but you
• 1:09:42
  shouldn't be an avid to anything.
• 1:09:45
  You know, but it, but it sounds like what you're saying about
• 1:09:47
  ketamine, there's a, there's a chemical addiction.
• 1:09:49
  There's yeah, there's a real risk with with ketamine, you
• 1:09:53
  know, especially there's a real risk that ketamine can raise,
• 1:10:02
  you know, behavioral avoidance, right?
• 1:10:05
  So, so if you think about like what is a acre of mental health?
• 1:10:09
  So a lot of it is whether you are approaching, pursuing
• 1:10:12
  things, right? You're going towards your
• 1:10:14
  values, your goals, whatever, or you're avoiding things, you're
• 1:10:17
  avoiding situations that are, you know, causing tension,
• 1:10:20
  right? So, so we would want to be
• 1:10:22
  healthy. To be healthy doesn't just mean
• 1:10:25
  to feel good. It means to pursue long term
• 1:10:30
  goals and values that are meaningful, that make my life
• 1:10:32
  richer, notwithstanding tension that I feel when I do it right,
• 1:10:38
  right, even in the presence of right learning.
• 1:10:41
  Learning confronts you day in, day out, many, many times with
• 1:10:46
  difficult emotions, right? And yeah, it's a healthy person
• 1:10:50
  is able to not back away from their goal and value in the
• 1:10:56
  service of right. So ketamine and, and, and and
• 1:11:02
  and alcohol and cannabis and other things have a risk of
• 1:11:06
  increasing experiential avoidance.
• 1:11:08
  This tendency to back away from or, you know, either to, to, to
• 1:11:12
  not bring myself to situations that feel difficult or even when
• 1:11:18
  I'm in that situation to sort of my.
• 1:11:20
  Capacity, that's the anti. Hero is shrunken the anti.
• 1:11:23
  It is. The anti hero isn't the anti
• 1:11:25
  hero. The I mean, whatever, there's a
• 1:11:26
  helo between the anti hero and the villain, you know, but but
• 1:11:30
  the it's interesting because the villain often believe the the
• 1:11:33
  villain is a hero with a warped sense of the mission.
• 1:11:36
  If you think about. It.
• 1:11:37
  Yeah, that's what I mean. I think so.
• 1:11:38
  That's the danger of, of buying into my My Hero Journey
• 1:11:42
  narrative, right? By the way, the hero of the hero
• 1:11:47
  of Lord of the Rings, I should have met, but you know, but the
• 1:11:51
  the hero of Lord of the Rings humbly I would suggest is not
• 1:11:54
  Frodo, Oh, come on, but Sam. OK, Because without Sam, Frodo
• 1:12:01
  would not have had the courage. One might suggest.
• 1:12:05
  Maybe there are legitimate views, but I've, I've, I've seen
• 1:12:07
  this discussed in the scholarly literature, but but you know,
• 1:12:12
  Sam is the one who, you know, the mission isn't.
• 1:12:15
  I mean, the mission is whatever. That's another episode.
• 1:12:20
  But but yeah, there is a real risk to to to return to the
• 1:12:23
  original question of being addicted to, to cadmium.
• 1:12:28
  I would not advocate for the, you know, unsupported use of
• 1:12:35
  these substances. There are resources, but on a
• 1:12:39
  serious note, there are resources available.
• 1:12:41
  Their organizations. I'm on.
• 1:12:46
  I can, I'm on the. Board you can you can send it to
• 1:12:48
  Don. Show notes Yeah, yeah, I'm on
• 1:12:50
  the board of an amazing nonprofit in the US that gives
• 1:12:53
  support to people who have suffered abuse in psychedelic
• 1:12:56
  settings. Right.
• 1:12:57
  Especially if you think about where boundary, right?
• 1:12:59
  If the, if the ego boundaries are less tangible.
• 1:13:01
  I don't even know where myself ends and God begins, right?
• 1:13:05
  So, you know, whatever, but I can, you can also foresee that
• 1:13:09
  sort of ethical boundaries could be readily, you know, violated.
• 1:13:14
  And there's also a muta in Israel that is promoting
• 1:13:19
  resources, good information about psychedelics and therapy
• 1:13:25
  that are legal called the ACPT Israel.
• 1:13:28
  So I'll send those in the show notes as well.
• 1:13:31
  Unfortunately, you've run out of time, but I want to say two
• 1:13:33
  things. One of them is to be clear, this
• 1:13:36
  is a neutral conversation. As you said multiple times, and
• 1:13:39
  I'll say it now very clearly, I'm not advocating for anyone to
• 1:13:43
  be taking any of these these drugs.
• 1:13:44
  What I do think is important is having open conversation
• 1:13:48
  information for the masses of just, there are pluses and
• 1:13:51
  minuses and there is research out there and there's what to
• 1:13:53
  discuss, which is what we did here.
• 1:13:54
  And I think that they need to talk about a lot of that.
• 1:13:56
  I think there's more to open up and maybe we'll do another
• 1:13:58
  episode sometime. There are two questions I wanted
• 1:14:00
  to ask you though, and I just, I'll put them on the table.
• 1:14:02
  You can't answer them now. I'm sorry.
• 1:14:04
  OK, but no, but don't worry, they're not, they're not like
• 1:14:06
  that. You'll see.
• 1:14:07
  But I think it'd be great for our viewers to think about it.
• 1:14:09
  I'd love to hear your opinion also, and maybe we'll discuss it
• 1:14:12
  the next time you hear. But number one, I find it
• 1:14:14
  interesting that in the Talmud and the Gemara, drugs come up
• 1:14:19
  all but one time and Rashi quotes in Hamish, if I'm not
• 1:14:24
  mistaken, OK, by loved, which is alcoholism.
• 1:14:26
  There's no, there's no Gamar's that talk about augmentation
• 1:14:31
  like of the abstract, except for that Gamar's I find interesting.
• 1:14:35
  And we do know that that knowledge of, of psychedelics
• 1:14:39
  is, is it's not, it's not something that's new.
• 1:14:41
  I mean, people knew about it for a long time.
• 1:14:43
  I'm just interested and I might even be saying this out in the,
• 1:14:47
  you know, by Veer, but why wasn't it?
• 1:14:49
  Why wasn't it something that we knew more about back then?
• 1:14:52
  I also do want to wanted to talk a little bit more about the
• 1:14:54
  differences and similarities between alcoholism and and
• 1:14:57
  psychedelics, but maybe next time we'll have an opportunity
• 1:15:00
  to talk about those things. Thank you so much for sharing
• 1:15:02
  with me a lot of wisdom. I learned a lot.
• 1:15:03
  I can definitely say that I learned a lot and it was great
• 1:15:05
  to to sit down with you. Thank you for having me and
• 1:15:08
  everyone should be me, Kazak and their heroes sounds good.
• 1:15:12
  I'll see you at the top of the mountain.
• 1:15:15
  Maybe along the way OK. Sounds good.
• 1:15:17
  Yeah. See everybody?