Latest / Doug Reads With Friends / Ep 11: Hope, Radical Care & The Parable of the Sower (with Graciela Guzman)

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Ep 11: Hope, Radical Care & The Parable of the Sower (with Graciela Guzman) · Doug Reads With Friends

• Doug Cutchins: Well, thank you very, very much to my friend, state Senator Graciela Guzman for coming on the podcast, for choosing a really important and meaningful book and for being who she is and expressing to me. ⁓ that was a very touching and moving end to that episode. Not something that I expected. Hello friends and welcome to Doug Reads with Friends. I'm Doug. In each episode of Doug Reads with Friends, a friend of mine picks a book, we both read that book, and then we sit down and we talk about the book, about ideas, and about our lives. The book brings us together, but the friendship is really the point of this. This podcast exists so I can stay connected to people I care about and make space for the kinds of meaningful conversations we don't always have time for. Thanks for joining us. I want to start with kind of the Graciela that I knew at Grinnell and trace a little bit how got from there to here. ⁓ And so this is maybe a self-interested question because I a lot about the value ⁓ of post-graduation service work. but that I really, really appreciate her expressing. And I feel very similarly towards her in terms of the impact that she's had on my life. And I'm so excited for her and how she gets to help create good in the world through her role in Illinois state government. On today's podcast, I am joined by Illinois State Senator, Graciela Guzman. This is the first time I think I've had somebody with a big title on, definitely the most famous person I've had on so far. I have known Graciela since she was a student and a posse scholar at Grinnell College where I was working and inspiring who people are and who they become. Do I recall correctly that AmeriCorps was your first stop out of undergraduate? Graciela Guzman: Yeah, that was the first stop. remember being, ⁓ we ⁓ it all the way back, I graduated and ⁓ was applying to jobs all throughout country ⁓ and a couple of the AmeriCorps here in Chicago specifically spoke to me. And so yeah, I was an AmeriCorps with the Illinois Primary Healthcare Association and that's how my entire trajectory around my career actually got So I got super lucky that I landed somewhere good and Doug Cutchins: Graciela and I got to know each other very, very well during her time at Grinnell. ⁓ And then I have watched in awe and amazement ⁓ as her career her life has taken off since then. ⁓ She worked for a long time in the healthcare policy space, trying to get more more people. Graciela Guzman: a really great community. But yeah, that was AmeriCorps. Doug Cutchins: Can you talk a little bit about how that work either inspires what you do now as a state senator, maybe something that you learned from that experience that you think about today as a state senator? access to healthcare in Chicago. And then recently as she has become a politician and stepped into the role of being an Illinois state Senator. Graciela Guzman: I think it did a couple of things for me. So in general, my origin story around healthcare, healthcare policy had always been of this life or death dynamic that had happened in my family. Like who got to have health insurance because ⁓ had immigration status. So me, who got to have it because I was born here ⁓ my grandfather and a lot of people in my family that didn't get to have it at all because they had been undocumented. ⁓ my grandfather in particular was one of my caregivers when I was a child and who helped raise me. a pancreatic cancer that moved super fast. And by the time that we were talking about it with his provider community, were telling us you can't pay, you don't have health insurance, like there really isn't much that can happen. And so that experience I walked away with as a really formative experience and why I thought I wanted to be a doctor, because Childhood Graciela was like, well, it's really Like if you just become a doctor, then like you can help all these people. Like you'll see them, it'll be great. Like your clinic will be full. Doug Cutchins: let's get into my conversation with Graciela Guzman about the book, The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. Graciela Guzman: and that's what I thought I was gonna do. then I ended up in a clinic and I was like, ⁓ I actually really don't like ⁓ medicine part of this so much. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Please follow Reads with Friends ⁓ social media. I am on TikTok and I am on Instagram and I am on Facebook. If you've got any comments or questions or feedback on Doug Reads Friends, it's pretty easy. Just send me an email at dougreadswithfriends at gmail.com. ⁓ Which is a problem for being a doctor. Graciela Guzman: I had a problem, but I really loved our patients and our patient community. I believed in like the mission. I knew that it was really important to fight for coverage. And think it opened up my vantage point on all of these other ways that I could actually help people get in the door. Because I would sit in the wait room and I would ask patients like, how did it go in there for you? ⁓ they would tell me, well, you know, the doctor diagnosed me with something, but I can't pay for ⁓ prescriptions. ⁓ they told me go be healthy, but ⁓ corner store doesn't really have Doug Cutchins: music for Doug Reads with Friends provided by my friend, Eiren Caffall Eiren is a wonderful ⁓ talented musician and author, and am greatly appreciative of her allowing me to use her work here on the podcast. So thank you, Eiren, and please check out her work on Spotify. Graciela Guzman: and vegetables. Or told me, hey, I need to go walk around the block, but they don't know that I don't have sidewalks ⁓ in neighborhood. it really me on journey around our social determinants of health and kind of like everything outside of the clinic walls and hospital walls that really get to drive ⁓ how we live and how we are. And I think that has been ⁓ journey of pooling policy and people help make lives better. And that all got started ⁓ by me learning that I really really didn't like medicine and I don't think it would have happened that way if I hadn't tried it out, you Doug Cutchins: I have an idea in my head of what it is to be a state senator and what you do. Like, okay, like you, you know, you, you go to Springfield and you debate, you pass laws and that type of thing. I'm guessing there's a lot of parts of it though, that I have no clue like, ⁓ that's involved with being a state senator. So what's like, what have you learned in this role and what has surprised you about this role? Okay, that's it for today's episode of Doug Reads with Friends. Here's my only request, send this podcast to one person, someone who would love this book or someone you've been meaning to reconnect with. Books can bring us together, but the conversations are what keep us there. Thanks for being my friend. I'll see you next time. Graciela Guzman: I spent many, years ⁓ big coalitions of organizations around people, around how we build people power to win big things and, know, big things being most of the time. But why I say that to you is because I think one of the biggest findings for me is I think about Springfield as like one big mass organizing project. I have colleagues that really want to do ⁓ things. and I'm asking them to be brave and then we get to come in and think about strategy and how we bring communities together to make this joint ask so that what feels really really hard and daunting can feel possible. I've got folks that I call them lovingly like I'm dragging you to humanity. I'm reminding you that we have an obligation to people at all times but especially in this moment I think organizing of it is like my base feature means that even when somebody's telling me like no this is not possible, it's not possible this year, not gonna get it at all, ⁓ brain is fragmenting time like ⁓ no, ⁓ telling me no this way but there's a roof, ⁓ another door, there's another window, ⁓ a rule that can be changed, there's something that can happen in the process ⁓ you I can find to maneuver ⁓ there's also this like ⁓ is stretching for me in these ways that I've been surprised by because sometimes I go I may not win this by May which is when our legislative season starts but could win it in 12 months, ⁓ 24 months, in 36 months and so this kind of like what do we need to do to get there and you always say like ⁓ kind of relishing the process. Like I think I'm actually leaning into that a little bit more because it can be really easy to fall into hope and despair if you don't win something right away. for me I go, I've been losing a lot ⁓ my whole life. So I know what it's like when you don't win it the first time and then you it eventually and it's better for it. But ⁓ I those have been my two findings. But in terms of the core question that you asked me, what is my job? We pass a lot of policy. We do it with community members. We have a lot of community collaborative processes. ⁓ And think folks don't expect that a lot. of my big pride points is how many pieces of legislation come from the sponsorship of community members that have come into our office and said this is something that is hurting me right now or an idea that I have what do you think. that collaborative process is exciting. ⁓ get to think a lot about what the future of our districts looks like and how we can use the state budget to do that and that for me feels existential ⁓ a neighborhood like mine where ⁓ of my community is gentrifying and so if I'm not really intentional about how we keep this district as home for people, they may not be here. So that always constantly feels like what can we be doing with our youth? What can we be doing with violence prevention and other programs? And I think we don't often think about what role state has in getting to define how we define this home. And I think the other part that makes me really excited is that I'm getting to redefine government services. And so yes, we do the traditional set of services that you would expect out of the state government. Like if you have questions about your driver's license, Doug Cutchins: Hmm. Graciela Guzman: about your insurance, about your unemployment, like all of those things like we do well, but I think we're getting to redefine government services in a moment where I think folks are really saying like what else can you do specifically right now to ensure that people are safe, that they feel included, that they feel advocated for. And so I think that's led us on all kinds of journeys in this office from mutual aid to rapid response to work around federal overreach because I think this is the moment where we get to dig in and figure out what else can we pull into this office so that our community feels well responded for. Doug Cutchins: One thing that strikes me as you're talking is that the Graciela that I know from Grinnell and that I adore from Grinnell is very self-effacing, doesn't like to talk about herself very much, will downplay her successes. You're a politician. You gotta get people to vote for you. You gotta get out and be like, vote for me, I'm the best. Here's why you need to support me. How do you balance those two things of? Kind of what I understand to be your nature versus like the demands of the job or like if you want to keep your job, you got to go tell people you're awesome. How do you balance that? Graciela Guzman: I think of two big things. One, that is still all true. I still hate ⁓ fundamentally about myself, but I think what has changed for me that specifically allowed for me to be in office was that ⁓ there's much in ⁓ my story that is the of hundreds if not thousands of people in my district. When I talk about being a renter, I talk about being ⁓ daughter of immigrants, I talk about being first my family to go to college. in like a vantage point that not a lot of my colleagues in the legislature have. it makes it even more important. I think I actually walk into Springfield not feeling smaller. ⁓ walk in like knowing that I've really got to own ⁓ vantage point, not just for me, but for other people that are looking for me to do so that aren't ever going to be able to step into Springfield. And so I think that ⁓ ⁓ clicked for me overwhelmingly the last couple of years that there's a responsibility that comes with what I've lived and what I want to do with it. So I think that's one part. And then I think the part that's been amazing throughout the campaign and just now getting to be in office is how loved I feel this community for getting to be who I am. ⁓ they reward my my peeling of myself, like getting to share experiences like ⁓ folks will call our office or write us or send me a text or see me at the Capitol or here and they'll go ⁓ Doug Cutchins: ⁓ Graciela Guzman: Because you got to share that you were a survivor or because you got to share that this had happened to you I feel like I can do the same because I saw you doing rapid response when ice was here I felt like I could do the same ⁓ that's obviously not my goal I want to produce like an environment where ⁓ don't have to do those things But it is something ⁓ I'm still processing to be able to be seen so wholly By district that I love and I think it is because I'm choosing to be as open as I about who I am, quirks and all. I'm shy about this, I'm not shy about this. You know, I'm getting to be like my most me ⁓ as well. ⁓ so it's to not have to feel like there's like ⁓ Graciela and work Graciela. There's, we're all just one now and that's great. Doug Cutchins: You mentioned the the ICE raids in Chicago earlier this year, a few ago. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like, what your role was, what you learned from that experience? Graciela Guzman: most of my first year was spent walking into a scenario where I knew what was going to be happening to my community. ⁓ The vast majority of my district is deeply immigrant. ⁓ So we walked into the year that there was little bit of a target around our district and we had a responsibility to get organized. And so when things during Operation Blitz really started It felt much like the contours of the book that I know we'll talk about at some point, but really dark, really heavy. ⁓ it was just kind of like in the minutia of trying to do everything in our power to keep people safe. And I do think that a of those moments felt like this practice of constantly reflecting to people. And I would say it in all my remarks, and it's true. ⁓ I you. I will do everything in my power as a civilian to protect you, and I love you. And it to be said because you know people would break down crying sidewalks at stores at schools everywhere because when you face ⁓ bullets and tear gas and you have ice at your door and you hear where they're at ⁓ don't feel particularly loved or seen and you don't know that ⁓ ever gonna feel loved or seen ⁓ your government again and it that part about redefining governance I think I've thought about all year And I think ⁓ really getting to be effusive ⁓ about ⁓ what our values are ⁓ and what refusing to compromise for for district, I think is something our neighbors needed for me. And a lot of them said like the preconditions for organizing our contingent upon how brave you feel to leave your home and be able to extend your love for community to that level. Right. When you have face ice and know that those situations may happen. So I know it felt like the right thing to do. I still absolutely know it was 100 % the right thing to do. I'm really grateful that hundreds of neighbors across Chicago made the same decision. And I think that when everything is said and done now, it has taught us a lot about what I think community care can do, right? That where systems fail and where governance can fail, that community members can have each other's back. that sometimes they can even have their back in ways that are more thorough and can kind of like redraw what we think is possible in terms of service. I think that there's an immediacy, right? That I couldn't really wait for guidance to come and tell me, Graciela, it's okay if you use state resources to help support your people. It was the other way around. They were like, you can't. And I was like, that's nice. Talk to you later. And a lot of that happened. And then ⁓ our became a lot of my Senate colleagues practices ⁓ and that, has to kind of go first sometimes just try things out. Doug Cutchins: One thing that thinking about as you're talking about this ⁓ is ⁓ that have very clear point of view. You know exactly what you believe, you know what your community is like, you know how to represent your community. ⁓ And yet every when you're in Springfield, you go to work with people, some of whom are diametrically opposed to what you believe, who fully support the ICE raids in Chicago, who ⁓ have depth of that matches yours, but on a totally different viewpoint. How do you relate to them? How do you along with them? If you do, what is it like to work with people who ⁓ such diametrically opposed things to you? Graciela Guzman: I to think about those colleagues as projects. Doug Cutchins: Hahaha. Graciela Guzman: So like how long is our program and project gonna be? I think it really sometimes depends on how entrenched things have been. And I think I've learned to differentiate the person from topics sometimes because I've seen both where I have colleagues that have said of the most vile ⁓ possible to me and to my colleagues. And then we'll turn around and be like, ⁓ those were the talking points that were drafted for me. ⁓ ⁓ okay, ⁓ I'm gonna clock that. and we're gonna talk about it. And I think there's colleagues that over my ⁓ 15 months or so that been office, 16 months, know, really focusing on those longitudinal relationships. How you get here? Why did you get here? ⁓ Do you not have lack of housing in your too? ⁓ Do you not have people that don't have jobs too? help me understand ⁓ what is going on for you. And then I actually that ⁓ their districts mine. you know, how urban mine is, how deeply immigrant mine is might be different, but ⁓ they have a lot of the same concerns that I do. And know, my hope is that ⁓ it less ⁓ abrasive, less some of the ideas that we're pushing, you know, if they're able to relate to the fact that we're actually like just like ⁓ one away from the same level of concerns, but it takes a lot of patience that ⁓ sometimes have, ⁓ sometimes don't. try to keep that patience for them part because I try to is we need to anything in the Senate you need 30 votes and so that point that I was saying at top like who am I encouraging to be their best self today ⁓ who am I encouraging to be patient ⁓ who I encouraging to be better or to brave ⁓ and sometimes better or brave for them just means take a walk you can take a walk when this thing is happening and that's beautiful and watch ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Ha ha ha. Graciela Guzman: like thank you so much but that's what I try to keep in the back of my brain when there's some moments that I just want to like rage yell something and remember that I really have to bring my light to and I've actually discovered that they don't like when we do that because they really want sometimes those colleagues a reason to hate me or to say ⁓ is like ⁓ you can't talk to you can't reason with her I'm like no you can't say that I brought you into ⁓ What I see, what I feel, how I feel it. I've asked you about your family. I've asked you about your values. I've asked you about your district. I've really tried to get in there because if you really really are gonna be opposed, we're gonna talk on substance, not on what you think is the substance. And so that's what I try to push myself to when I'm patient. When I'm not patient, you know, we'll have a head-to-head debate in a committee and it's super cute. Not really, but that's that. Doug Cutchins: about a different role of yours, which is that you're a trustee of our alma mater, Grinnell College. I mad enough that when Grinnell dropped Posse, I have not given money to Grinnell College since then, with one exception, which is that when you were named to the board of trustees, ⁓ I made a donation to Grinnell College to encourage them ⁓ further in that direction. ⁓ Graciela Guzman: Yeah! Doug Cutchins: how do you view the college differently now through the lens of a trustee than you did through a student eyes or then as an alumn's eyes? Graciela Guzman: know I think about way for Grinnell because changed my entire life and trajectory. ⁓ I wouldn't have met you. You changed my life. a lot of people that I think at Grinnell that are now my core family that I wouldn't then my first back to Grinnell was actually very friction filled where I was like, I'm gonna come and tell you in your walls how I feel about y'all. And then they were like, okay. And it became this journey back to Grinnell I think out of a broader ultimate goal, know. How do we bring back Posse and other things that we really love that I believe should be at Grinnell? I think also there's still students that actively need what we learned and our perspective and that orientation on campus right now. I think that has been actually ⁓ that has been really personally fulfilling. That orientation I'm not sure that I had as a student for sure. I wasn't thinking about like what is the future solvency of this institution or the college or ⁓ you know, what does it mean to have generations of Grinnellians come forth in a similar orientation? I definitely was not thinking about that as a student. And for the most part, in my alumni journey, I was like, I think they're doing what they gotta do for the most part. I'm sure we'll hear about it. It's fine. then as a trustee, you know, I think ⁓ get asked this often when we get asked to reconsider ⁓ we want to extend our terms or why we are coming back, you know, and I mean this like full weight of my chest is, ⁓ know, when a Grinnellian is in a space. Like you feel it in how they speak, how they bring up their values. And so I brought up this example for Chicago where oftentimes I will be in a room and someone will just say something and I'll go up to them afterwards and I'll be like, hey, can I just ask you the most random question? Do you know this town called Grinnell? And then they go, yeah, class of 1999, 89, 2013, 2017. Like they'll start listing this off. I'm like, these are the colleagues that I'm looking for in disruption. And there is something about Grinnell that cooks people are very ⁓ about not just how life works, but ⁓ and community invested in how to change it. And don't take that for granted. And so my vested stake right now is I don't know where this world is going, but I know where I want it to go. And I think we're going to need Grinnellians in that orientation of people that deeply care and love each other ⁓ to change So we need to incubate more Grinnellians is kind of how I view that. And that's something that I think the trusteeship time has specifically brought out in me. Like can I do in service of ⁓ Grinnellians I think are doing excellent work but have ⁓ a to combat in this moment. It's a really tough time for many of us to do our work. And so how can we get some stuff out of their way? It's kind of how I view the role of the trusteeship specific to Grinnellians that I hope will graduate and get to do their thing. Doug Cutchins: I get you out of here without asking you about singing because, ⁓ man, ⁓ for people who have heard Graciela sing, have missed out. Unbelievable voice and you sang a lot at Grinnell from acapella to classical and everything in between. I know that you were ⁓ leading a band for a while in Chicago. So are you singing now? Do your colleagues in the state Senate know that you sing? What role singing play in your life, if any, today? Graciela Guzman: So think in a way, me singing is probably like my bravest self. And so it's been interesting to clock in my life I have sang more publicly or externally. And yeah, I sing a lot in college and that was so much fun. And I think it brought me community, it me a lot of joy. I still sing sometimes, not as often as I'd like, but ⁓ I think colleagues are starting to learn that that is a thing that I ⁓ do, if makes sense. Shocking for them and I'm like, that's great. See you don't know you don't know what you got yet. That's that's amazing I'll keep pulling up things And then with my band I try to perform whenever we get it together to book gigs still and I think that's important in part because folks have this like image of ⁓ they think a senator should be and then ⁓ have the obligations of our job, which if I allow it will eat up an entire day and ⁓ I'll home sometimes and go. Okay. Well, what am I doing? for myself that allows me to pour back into the well. And I think singing is like one of those like expedited like once I do it, I feel so much incredibly better that it always makes you question like, oh, why did we do that more this week? You know, it's everyone has like their thing that kind of like speed charges them up and mine is like being on a stage or singing or being at home and doing that. And so that is the connection to how I take care of myself right now is to give myself that time and try to recharge. Doug Cutchins: What about reading? What role does reading play in your life? Has it historically been important? Is it important today? Graciela Guzman: Reading, think historically, has always been super important for me. I read a ton in my early years because we were navigating English as a second language. And so the teacher would say, you've got to go out with these books and you've got to read. And I would be really like, oh my God, I've got to read these books. And somewhere in there actually really, really loved to read and so much so that you know they sped tracked my way out of English as a second language in the curriculum and was like reading my way through like anything and everything I could find in elementary school and middle school so I like developed this like really healthy love of reading then now I would think I would define my relationship with reading as like two things it's predominantly functional like ⁓ we a lot of briefs ⁓ we a lot of bills ⁓ we read a lot of like sub articles about it so there's that part. I know. Doug Cutchins: plot lines and characters aren't nearly as interesting in a state senate bill. Graciela Guzman: It's just not, although it's kind of in between the lines is where you find the spicy stuff. Ooh, like this is what they meant to say when they said this, that part I grabbed. But I think a lot of my reading now, I'm leaning a lot towards fiction these days. And I think it does come from, you know, like exercising the imagination and the creativity or pulling myself out of like a present scenario and reimagining something different. And that's a lot of the role that it played for me when I was a kid as well. Doug Cutchins: You Graciela Guzman: You know like not some of it the escapism but some of it is just like getting to Think about yourself in a just different scenario and almost role play like if this was me and good if I was in chapter 21 and this was happening to Graciela how what would she do in order to do something you have see it So have to see brave or courageous or imaginative or fun or light or all these things and so books have always been this ⁓ to it, to like how do I put myself in a frame of thinking towards something. So I'm trying to read a lot more from that perspective as of late. Doug Cutchins: Well, let's talk a little bit about the book that you chose for today. ⁓ So us a little bit of an introduction to the book and ⁓ what is and why you chose it. Graciela Guzman: Yeah, so I chose the Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. And in part, think why it got chosen, one, this is something that in my community spaces and movement spaces, folks have been talking about for a while and have been saying like, have you read this? There's so many examples and kind of things felt like a portal to this moment. Have you read it? And I was consistently like, no, and I don't know when I'm gonna read it. And then you like Facebook, message and I was like, okay, perfect. Like this is the excuse to like finally sit down and start reading it. ⁓ But all in all, you know, I think why it came to me and I think now that I've read it, you know, it feels urgent. It felt somewhat prophetic. I can get why folks would say like it's speaking to this moment. I think the essence of it is really about asking us look at ⁓ the world us, right? It can feel dystopian for some of us. and the book in large part, I think the themes of it for me are survival, about inequity, about kind of like the strength of like your belief system ⁓ what do people choose to do when the world is falling apart? But basically set ⁓ in very future California ⁓ that has a ton of climate crisis, economic instability. at an all-time high, you have the failure of the state, you have a lot of violence and follows Lauren who's just to make it ⁓ in her life when all of things have become unstable and dangerous. And I think for ⁓ why I wanted to upon it was folks saying ⁓ read it and see if feel as hopeful ⁓ as ⁓ we do about fact we can shape our way ⁓ out of something old when things are falling apart, i.e. don't fret. will build our way out of like anything that comes our way. So was a beautiful read. I'm curious to hear what you thought. Doug Cutchins: this is the first book in this podcast series that I had read previously. It's an outstanding book. There are parts of it that I think I liked better on the second read. There are parts of it that I didn't like as much on the second read. question I want to ask you about this book is, do you think the book, not how you felt about it, but do you think the book itself is optimistic or pessimistic? Graciela Guzman: I actually think it's profoundly pessimistic, at least first read about it in terms of the situations. ⁓ I think ⁓ puts into question, I think, the decision that we all get to make. ⁓ You have ⁓ really, heavy things, changes somewhat and how we make decisions out of that. We get to those. So you can have a pessimistic viewpoint that think is entirely realistic and still ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Yeah. Graciela Guzman: profound hope ⁓ that and that it's actually like ⁓ more remarkable ⁓ people can hold hope light when something is that dark and that heavy and that pessimistic. ⁓ So how I hold both of those things because it actually puts me in marvel of people that I think ⁓ in lot of the daily conditions that I've talked about before with you, it can profoundly like this is never going to change for me ⁓ and then still say but I hope that one day it will ⁓ and the of that. still so you can hold the how we choose take the pessimism is where the optimism is found, ⁓ I guess is I'm trying to say in that. So I see the pessimism, I try to navigate reality of it, including ⁓ the ways in which was reading the book. And I think ⁓ Lauren, example, thinking about I think she navigated a lot of circumstances, she saw it as reality too. And in understanding that reality, you can shape ⁓ how you want to and what you want to do out of it. Doug Cutchins: There's one quote I pulled that I wanted ⁓ to ask you about ⁓ from this book. This is pretty early on and is the main character in the book. Her father is a very important character in the first half of the book. ⁓ He says, quote, it's better to teach people than to scare them. If you scare them and nothing happens, they lose their fear and you lose some of your authority with them. It's harder to scare them a second time, harder to teach them, harder to win back their trust. Best to begin by teaching. When you think about your work in the state Senate, I mean, you can scare people into action. You can teach people into action. How do you think about and balance those? Graciela Guzman: I I profoundly am a better teacher than I am a better scarer. Doug Cutchins: Hahaha Graciela Guzman: ⁓ I want to bring you an example of a conversation that I had really early on ⁓ in my term when ⁓ ICE had just ⁓ tear gassed ⁓ street around our office and I had a constituent call and she was sobbing and she was like, ⁓ this that I shouldn't leave my house? What should we do? What what are you going to do? And I listened to her and I of like took it down for a second. And then I was like, what do you want to do? What do we want to do? ⁓ she was like, ⁓ I know that I really care about whether my kids get home ⁓ today and whether my neighbors are safe going to school. So was like, ⁓ don't we do school watch today? your ⁓ I can neighbors over there ⁓ And that the of our school watch that we had in our district. for many, many months. And I think it really came out of a frame of if we're gonna do this, we're gonna have to do it together. Like we have to undo this part where you think I'm gonna save you because I can't save us. ⁓ But I can bring folks that I think are amazing and brilliantly minded and community minded together and we can collectively do some things. And that was the beginnings of like, let me talk you through what I know, ⁓ I don't know. Let me validate how scary this is for you. And I'm gonna ask you to leave that scary and now let's take an action. Doug Cutchins: Mm. Graciela Guzman: And I guess that's how I try to teach through uncertainty and through fear and not use it as an example or as a tool of my work, but rather I need you to move through that feeling to do something ⁓ is good for you, good for your family, good for your community. ⁓ I think that, I don't know that that's the best approach for everyone, but for me, that's how I find optimism in my work. It's how I find communal belonging in my work. also just how we find capacity building ⁓ ⁓ if I bring you something really scary and I try to or bring fear into the tactic and I try to force my way into it and that's not what you believe. ⁓ When push comes to shove, ⁓ peel away from it. ⁓ if we've collectively built something you can find pride in or meaning in ⁓ and be able to speak to people, you know, ⁓ I think we've built that is bigger than just our office and so it takes a lot more work. ⁓ But I found it to be much more effective for what I'm trying to do. Doug Cutchins: So you said that you chose this because a lot of people in your district or a lot of people you know had asked you about it, had said it inspired them. did you think of the book in that way? Did see why they had recommended it to you? Did it hit in the way that you think they wanted it to hit for you? Graciela Guzman: I think so. a lot of the folks gave me the suggestion around the book was, ⁓ if you keep doing this the that you're doing it, Graciela, you're gonna burn out. And ⁓ there are a lot of folks were really saying, you need to expand how you think about this moment ⁓ because ⁓ we have this mutual challenge how we bring more people into this work to keep each other safe? ⁓ And I think that speaks to a of things, Like ⁓ change is unavoidable. not going to be felt equitably across the board. ⁓ so ⁓ when things are moving really profoundly fast, ⁓ can still do things that are incredibly inclusive in our practice from how we organize communities to how we're centering those that are the most impacted ⁓ like whatever atrocity is happening around us. ⁓ balancing of orientation, think I felt, you know, as one of the themes in the book, ⁓ fact that survival is collective, it's not an eye sport, right? Like ⁓ us to make it. It has to be in us and that there is both a need a functional need and a beauty and a capacity building that can happen out of that I like that I got ⁓ you know ⁓ believe in imagination I think before the last two years I would have kind of scoffed it off a little bit ⁓ sometimes in and emergency ⁓ I'm so good at a to-do list. I'm like, okay Doug Cutchins: Mmm. You Graciela Guzman: this, this, and this, this person's gonna move, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, that's great. And there also still needs to be in the pool of discipline someone that almost has this like 10,000 foot view and goes, ⁓ have tried something different? Have we tried this approach? What can change to make this easier or better or more effective, right? Like just the ability to see things in a different way ⁓ and have be a respected viewpoint I think is something that I pulled. this but also like the power of belief right that sometimes like when push comes to shove and you're literally getting shoved and you're getting beat and you're getting harassed and you're getting surveilled and you're getting trapped like and that's where we were at one point it was heavy and you're just kind of like in it still need to be able to carry on the belief that any of the things that we're doing ⁓ drastically improve lives that we can materially change ⁓ conditions that will make it we will survive, we will have good that comes out of it, that we will do our best to make people full. Those are really big things to believe. And you don't hold on to that belief and hope, ⁓ what we doing it for? ⁓ What the world that comes after that? And I think that reflection, ⁓ I needed as someone that like, ⁓ my make fun of me, I promise I am fun. I am fun, I promise. I ⁓ can sometimes, like I have fun. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: I even sing! Graciela Guzman: because in those months I was like, I was the business, I was the business. And we can be the business and we can also create of joy and belief because that is how the keeps going, that is how our survival keeps going. But it's also fundamentally like, I think it brought me to something that I've been reflective of ⁓ because the book, but because of other things like we can the win being survival, but how we win is also equally in this scenario. Like if we do it together and there's a community that can continue to build and be happy together, that is actually like the biggest non-star that we could have in this scenario. And you can't have that if you've been nasty to each other or it hasn't been fun or, you know, we haven't related in a meaningful way or I don't know your name, know, those fundamentals. So I think it brought me back to what of leader do I want to be in this moment, which I think is like ⁓ the externally lovey Pisces ⁓ leader I can. and not just in validation of self, but because it's how I like to relate and be around people and I can feel what my joy can do in a space if I let it. Like it can warm up a space, it can make it profoundly less scary, ⁓ it can make it more inviting. ⁓ And that's what I'm trying to hold now in the midst of ⁓ a lot of the heavy is that all that is needed and that's a skill set that ⁓ when we think about collective survival, we need elevate like all of the various things that we I just left it up in that exact ⁓ ⁓ Doug Cutchins: I to ask about one incident very late in the book in which there's a big earthquake. It's California. You grew up in California. You know about California earthquakes. And there are women who are trapped under some rubble and the main character the people she's with go to rescue them. And they get attacked ⁓ while they're doing this because are weak in that moment and other people are trying to take advantage of them. ⁓ And she says at this Graciela Guzman: Yes. Doug Cutchins: Caring will get me killed someday. And I wanted to ask you about that just in terms of you're a deeply caring person. You're a deeply empathetic person. You're somebody who is in this because of your community. Are there challenges that come with that as well? I mean, I'm imagining you've talked a little bit here about like just the depth that you're in your work and the kind of taking care of yourself as well. How do you balance the wanting to care and be empathetic and give yourself into this while also recognizing that that brings its own challenges and difficulties? Graciela Guzman: being honest, being as caring as I am, it does bring more work. It definitely means that I come to my team and to myself and I'm like these are the ideas that I have based on what I'm seeing ⁓ and comes from I think a genuine curiosity and care for the conditions that people are going through and then I think a very profound belief that I can everything in my power to change. So the to do list is really long. The hours are really long. I asked this team that I have here to do amazing things and they do. Doug Cutchins: Yeah Graciela Guzman: there's points in the year where I will sit and I'll be like, ⁓ okay, like profoundly exhausted happy what we do, but that doesn't change that fact. so that part about being this caring ⁓ will get killed. I've thought about it. I've thought about it as I, ⁓ you know, head in to many scenarios in our area, as I've gotten shoved by ice, as I've gotten hit by ice, as I've really had to like understand that my title in the those kinds of situations actually means very little CBP to Border Patrol or to ICE or to many folks that are doing that network. It ⁓ doesn't it less important. And I that because I think for all of my caring and the heaviness of that caring, I've come to a reckoning that is still what I deeply believe and want to do and how I want to move around the world. And it puts such a big responsibility on me then to think about how to think about how to be a whole as human the same time that I have to legislate ⁓ have a beautiful team and on people. ⁓ that I can't be stubborn and allow myself to be cared on, that there are such things as days off, it is okay to karaoke sometimes, that I need to find other things that ⁓ I and bring me joy. ⁓ That I think, has been ⁓ equally hard. And I also think the reason that folks gave me this book, ⁓ and think it's because they're saying, like, ⁓ we you here for the long haul. This work undo much of what is happening around us didn't get Doug Cutchins: Mm. Graciela Guzman: here in one generation and if you expire before you can do the work that you need to do like what was it for? And so that's really the message that I'm sitting with is like ⁓ lived big because we we work hard at it but I also care about ⁓ lot about how I get there ⁓ a way that I don't think I did before this year. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: ⁓ Well, know that you are a busy, busy woman and we need to get you out of here in just a moment. ⁓ There's one last thing that we do the podcast to wrap up, which is to imagine a beautiful future scenario where you and I get to see one another again someday. hope soon ⁓ maybe inspired by something in this book. we don't beat one another in a dystopian future where gangs. ⁓ Graciela Guzman: I don't want to see you in a dystopian future, but I definitely... What I wouldn't give to have another walk with you anywhere, but another walk with you around Macfield and feel like ⁓ dewiness of the grass, ⁓ ⁓ our steps. And, ⁓ know, I know you didn't ask it, but I think why I hope we get to have that moment. Ooh, I wasn't expecting to cry, Doug. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Take your time. Graciela Guzman: Thank you for college. thought that was a moment that by all accounts, like I really didn't think I would make it. We didn't think I would make it. There were a lot of moments in there, you know? ⁓ ooh, there were times we were worried. But I think you were like one of the very formative and early examples in my life of what I think I try to hold in my heart, which is that. Doug Cutchins: There were times we were worried. Graciela Guzman: Caring for people is so important it can change lives, it can transform what we do around us. ⁓ like your profound ⁓ care for me has in ways changed ⁓ the trajectory of for my own life and what I get to do now in service of other people. So just you. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: ⁓ my goodness, Graciela, you're making me cry too. You're so welcome. I mean, you changed my life as well. Without you, I don't get to be a Posse mentor and I don't have those people in my life. And I don't think I have this job. I don't think that I'm on the trajectory I'm on. So we have impacted one another's lives in deep ways and you are deeply welcome, but I feel similar levels of gratitude. We changed one another's lives in really important and profound ways. And I will always be. ⁓ Grateful for that and happy for that. And I always say it, I deeply mean it this time. Thank you for being my friend. Graciela Guzman: ⁓ thank you for being my friend. And I'm hopeful I get to chat with you sooner than not.