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Why Eating Well Got So Complicated | Margaret Wittenberg, Whole Foods · The Restaurant Guys

• 1:13
  Speaker 4: Good morning, mark.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Hey Francis.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: How are you?
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: I'm fine.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: Considering the decline of Western civilization and all I I, as a matter of fact, I feel good about myself.
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: It's just the rest of us that are going a heck in a hand basket.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Back to the hand basket.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Are we.
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: Channeling the spirit of Uncrustables and Hot Pockets.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: This came from a listener, by the way.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: yeah.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: this came from Calvin, a loyal listener in Chicago, whom I think a great deal.
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Uh, and he writes rather amusingly channeling the spirit of Uncrustables and Hot Pockets.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: Those two culinary, uh, triumphs in April Craft.
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: We'll launch bagel fos.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: That's BAGL dash FULS.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: These are frozen bagels which come pre-stuff with Philadelphia.
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: Cream cheese bagel fos are part of a segment called handheld breakfast sandwiches.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: Have
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: we gotten that?
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Lazy?
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Okay,
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: here's
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: have we gotten that lazy.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Here's a quote from the director of marketing.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Consumers are not spending a lot of time cooking these days, said Chitra Ebenezer.
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: Ebenezer.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: Interesting.
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: The director of marketing for the new brand.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: Uh, are there no work?
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: How about
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: slicing?
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: How much time are we spending slicing?
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Is that, is that a long time?
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: Are there no work houses?
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: Um, breakfast is one occasion, one meal occasion.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: They really struggle with, I know I putting that cereal into that bowl and then,
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: then
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: I gotta get that milk.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: I can
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: take eight or 10 seconds and
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: sometimes the milk is sour.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Oh golly.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: I gotta buy milk all once a week.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: At least
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: that's it.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: Sometimes I have to go and I want cream cheese and a bagel for breakfast, and I have mark.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: I get up early'cause I have to put the cream cheese on the bagel.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Well, you gotta slice it too.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: It's big.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: Well,
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: you can't put it
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: on
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: top.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: It's big.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: Actually, no.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: You can buy lender's bagels.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: They come pre-sliced.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, you can take that out of the freezer.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, you know what
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: I do?
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, the time to defrost is the, is the time that it takes to slice and, and, uh, you know, smear a bagel.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: Do you know what I do?
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: What?
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: What do you do?
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: I actually have in Jersey City, I gotta share this with you.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: A bagel guy.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: A bagel guy like you wouldn't believe.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: And I'm not kidding.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: And you know.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: Alright.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: I'm a little ticked off this morning.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: What?
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: I didn't get a bagel.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: Oh no.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: You know what?
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: I should stop.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: You knew we were talking about bagels.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: I,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: and you didn't bring me a bagel Schmeared with cream cheese.
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: I, I actually, I have to, I have to fight the urge to have a bagel every morning, and I'd be fatter than I am.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: There's this guy who own runs this little bagel place.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: It's open seven days a week.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: I love places like
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: that from, well, well before when I get up.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: So I don't, I don't know exactly what time it opens.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Two, two o'clock closes at two every day.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: And he has good mild coffee.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: He has a bunch of juices and things, but he makes the bagels there fresh every day.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: And you know what?
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: That's a fresh bagel.
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: And I go and say, yeah, cinnamon raisin cream cheese.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: Wrap that up for me.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: Thanks a lot.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: But I mean,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: and it's, and that's, and that's gotta be killing you to, to have to stop in that bagel place there.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: Oh man.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Can I,
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: I, in Jersey City, we can double park.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: I gotta share with you the opposite story.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: I go into a bagel place in, in my hometown.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: It's a, it's a little place and obviously they're not making the bagels there, but whatever.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Go buy a bagel and there are muffins in the window.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like, ah, you know what?
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: I'll bring home a couple of muffins to, I'm having some people over, and so I order a couple of muffins and I'm like, oh, you know?
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: I see.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Do you have any blueberry?
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Hold on a second.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: And I see the woman swear to you.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: True.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: She takes the Costco 12 pack of muffins, tears it open.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: Puts Saran wrap around two of the blueberry muffins and gives'em to me and, and puts'em in the bag and, and rings'em up.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: Are you
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: kidding?
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: I swear to you, I, I can't believe we haven't talked about it till now.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Swear to you.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: That's exactly what she, it's in Cranford.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: She, this is exactly what she does.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: She takes the package of Costco slices it open, takes two out, wraps it up.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Puts it on the counter.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: My guy
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: had one and I thought, and I thought exact words that that came to my head were, oh, shame on you.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Shame on you.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: Because first of all, you're buying'em from Costco.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Okay, so that's like the, you know, you're buying muffins from Costco, please.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Say number one.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: Secondly,
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: you do it in front of me,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: you gotta hide that better.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: You just want 12 muffins for a dollar 40, and you're charging me, you know, a dollar 50 a muffin.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: You know, you gotta, you gotta cover that up somehow.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: Plus the quality of the,
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: oh, they're terrible.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Come on.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: I just, you know, I, I, I look at stuff like that and, and I, I understand small business, believe me, I understand small business.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: You, you, you have to stay open.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: You have to operate and you, you know, people do things that maybe they wouldn't otherwise do if they were looking from across the other side of the
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: county.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: But I don't stop into your bakery to give, if you're gonna give me chips a hoy when I the Trump chip.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: Hide the bag, you know, hide the bag.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: That's all I'm asking.
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: Alright, we only got a minute left, but I wanna share with you one other thing to, to watch out for in our crazy society.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: Um, it seems as though soda companies have a pilot program where they're indu introducing small, small amounts of vitamins into the soda.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Oh, sure.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Why not?
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: What a great idea.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Well, it's, you know, all that is, is the way, and they're not even like, a lot of, it's not even like a hundred percent of your daily dose.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: So it's a way to convince your kid yet again that it's not bad for you.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: What a great idea.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: Guess what?
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: You put some vitamins in.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: I have soda a couple times a week.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: It's bad for me.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: I enjoy it.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: A great deal.
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: It's,
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you, I have soda now probably.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: Twice
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: a week for me.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Uh, it's probably once a month.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Now I've just reduced that part of my life to
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: oblivion, whatever.
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: But what I'm saying is when you're making a choice, they should not, okay.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: We're passing laws that say that you can't say that milk doesn't have recombinant bovine growth hormone.
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: That's not allowed on the label.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: You can't say that,
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: but, but you can put vitamins into soda until people, it's good for them.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: But you can put vitamins that there are vitamins in your Coke or I don't wanna name Coke'cause they'll sue me in your, in your sugary soda.
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: It's, we've lost our minds.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: You have to keep listening to the show.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: Again.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: If it were sugary soda, I would have less of a problem with it.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: It's corn syrup.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Soda.
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: Well,
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: high fructose corn syrup, soda,
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: we're losing our minds.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: You have to listen to the show.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: You have to pay attention to what you eat, and you have to eat good food back in just a moment.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: You're listening to the restaurant Guys.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: Hey everybody and welcome back here listening to the restaurant guys, mark and Francis of Stage left, and Catherine Lombardi Restaurants in downtown, new Brunswick, New Jersey.
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: And our guests today is Margaret Wittenberg.
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: She's an authority on natural and organic foods and environmental sustainability.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: She's vice president of communications and quality standards for Whole Foods Markets, the nation's largest chain of natural food supermarkets where she's worked since 1981.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: She's a.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: Former member of the USDA National Organic Standards Board and currently serves on the Marine Stewardship Council's Board of Trustees.
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: Um, she's been called the Conscience of Whole Foods, and she joins us today.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Margaret Wittenberg.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: It's been great.
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: It's great to be here.
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: You're actually a, I'm talking to a conscience.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: It's amazing.
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: I'm conscious today too.
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: Conscious conscience.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: That's
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: even better.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: I talk to mine all the time, but nobody listens.
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: So, so let's talk about Whole Foods.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: We say good things about Whole Foods all the time, and in our, um, many discussions of, of how to source food responsibly.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: Um.
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: Why don't you talk to us about Whole Foods and about sort of the conscience of Whole Food, whether that's embodied in you or not.
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: What, what's the, what's the mission there?
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's been interesting.
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: We've been in, as a company, we've been around since September, 1980, and I joined in January, 1981.
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: It was at the 24th employee of the company.
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: Now we have well over 40,000, but the interesting thing is that the values have always been the same about food.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: You know, in, in the early days it was.
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: Was very, even more simple than it is now.
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: No artificial flavors, colors, and preservatives.
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: I mean, that was always the mantra that we had.
• 8:48
  Speaker 5: And in the 1980, the early eighties especially, was, was an interesting concept because it was a whole grocery store that really.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: Showcase those kind of foods and you could, you know, shop as normal shopping would be, but you knew that those foods would have it that way.
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: Well, over the years, food science has gotten pretty interesting, you know, making things a lot more complex.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: You know, genetic engineering, I mean, and all these kind of things have kept come up.
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: So along the way we've really had to step up and evaluate things, whether it's.
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: Looking at, at food or body care products or seafood meat.
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, all of that kind of thing.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: And just decide, okay, where is the line for us?
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: What, what are we gonna do?
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: So it's been interesting.
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: It's really fascinating work.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: You know, Margaret, it's not just the science though, that's become more complex.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: The lexicons become more complex, that the words that we use to name things has become more complex.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: Can you just talk a little bit about how those, the, the different words mean so many different things and, and how I think that so many people just don't understand what word means what.
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: Well, in fact, that's, that is so true and local is probably the one that I, that came to my mind right when you're saying that because.
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: Local really kind of means whatever it means right there where you're buying your product from.
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: You know, local could be, for example, I'm in Texas and local for Texas would probably be the whole state of Texas.
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: Because they've always been very pro Texas as a state with foods.
• 10:18
  Speaker 5: Even though this is a very, very big state and the narrow other areas, it may be that it's just within like.
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: Eight, eight hours of a driving time to get there.
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: Or it, it couldn't include like a whole region.
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: So, you know the whole thing on local when, when people say that, you gotta ask'em what the definition is.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's funny as we talk about words and definitions and, and as you brought up earlier how things have changed since, you know, in 1980 or 1981, you said, okay, no artificial stuff in here.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: You know, it's gotten really complicated for people who listen to our show.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of folks who listen to our show and and who are, who include both restaurateurs and people who buy for, for food service operations and people who buy for their home.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Let's be honest, it's been really complicated for me.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's true
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: now, and I do it every day,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: but if it's not your job, it's complicated to try and.
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: And eat ethically to navigate all the different issues that are out there.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: And I mean, my view, and I have a biased view, is that, you know, food science and agribusiness keep throwing different machinations of, um, of Franken food at us.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: And they try more and more to make it harder for us to distinguish what's Franken food and what's normal food as we think of food on a farm.
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: I think one of the things that, that on the one side what you do at Whole Foods is you can help to educate customers, but on the other side.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: You, you, you give people the option to say, you know what, if Whole Foods says it's okay, it's okay.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: I can't, I, I don't have the time to navigate all of this, so I'll just go to Whole Foods and I'll trust that they're drawing a line that I would be comfortable with.
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: Do you think that you, uh, that Whole Foods occupies both of those roles?
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah.
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: You know, we know that we do that.
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: We know that the complexity out there is so great and, and that people have their everyday lives of, of, uh, just maintaining a household.
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: Uh, whether it's just yourself or you have a family going to work, just doing all those things and in order to really understand the issues, it takes somebody that's really focusing on it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: And I mean, that's what we do at Whole Foods Marketing.
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: It's important for us to know that the food that we sell really is what we feel proud of having in the store.
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: And our customers over the years, we have, have gotten their trust that we really have really tried to.
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: To look and see what that is.
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: I mean, including having a staff that actually doesn't look at it, you know, and, and that kind of a thing.
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: So, you know, I I, I wanna pick up this point.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: We have to take a quick break, uh, Margaret, but I, I wanna take this up on the other side with Margaret Wittenberg of Whole Foods, uh, to talk about what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable, and the things that are hard to navigate for consumers trying to eat responsibly.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: We'll be back in just a moment.
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: You're listening to the restaurant guys, Hey everybody.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Welcome back.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: You're listening to The Restaurant Guide.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: Today we're talking with Margaret Wittenberg of Whole Foods.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: You've been called The Conscience of Whole Foods.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: It's one of the first employees, of that August company and is responsible for helping draw the line as to what's carried there and what's not.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: You know, Margaret, we were talking before the break about, uh, the line that's drawn as to what's wholesome and what is considered, you know, I guess whole food.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: One of the things that's very difficult, I carry around in my wallet, a little card that I got from the Monterey Bay.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: Uh, aquarium.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: We, they did a show with us about what's a sustainable fish and what's not, and whether certain fish you should look for farm raised and not, and the, the issues that arise around.
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, Phish is a, is for me, the most complex example of, of what's good and responsible to eat are really complex.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: Indeed.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: How do you at Whole Foods go about drawing the line?
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Is it that you guys come up with what you think is right and then present that to your customers and, and hope that your customers find an audience?
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: Or is it that you have a customer base now that you sort of consult and, and try to see what it is that they want?
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: Well, first of all, seafood is extremely complex.
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: You have the whole environmental issue, health issues, everything kind of combined in that.
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: And unlike livestock, when you have it in a defined area and you know where they've been and all that kind of thing, seafood is, if it's wild, that's.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: Certainly out in a great expanse and then, or if it's farmed, you know, there are a lot of other very unique issues related to aquaculture that you might find in land-based farming.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: Well, especially when you consider that fish may travel thousands of miles in their lifetime, where, you know, a deer general lives in one specific area or, or even wild gain that we.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: Absolutely go after here.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: It, it doesn't cover the same amount of ground
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: adding in complexity.
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: And so what we've done is, you know, again, that trust that people have within our company that we have really done our homework.
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: What we've done is really evaluate both in wild and in aquaculture.
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: And including what we're very big in multi-stakeholder groups.
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: We have included input from the producers, input from environmental scientists, input from environmental groups, input from customers, input from people who are.
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: Considered the tops and, and procuring seafood.
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: I mean, we've done all that so we can understand the issues and, and, and figure out, so what do we do?
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: And for, when it comes to wild, one of the things that we decided back in 1999 was to really support the Marine Stewardship Council, and that's an international group based in London.
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: And what they have is the best environmental choice type of label.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: Margaret.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: Margaret, we wait a minute, leave it right there.
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: We're gonna go listen to the news, but we're gonna come back right on the other side of the news and I hope you'll stick with us and we can talk more about, oh, you bet about this, this very issue in your new book, uh, new Good Food, which we'll talk about after the break.
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: You're listening to the restaurant guys.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: Today we're talking with Margaret Wittenberg.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: She's an authority on natural and organic foods.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: She's vice president of communication and quality standards for Whole Foods.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: She's been called the Conscience of Whole Food, and she has a new book out called New Good Food Essential Ingredients for Cooking and Eating Well, you can find out about this book.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: On end Whole Foods on our website, restaurant guys radio.com.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: We were talking about responsibly putting together what is a responsible selection of food and eating responsibly.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: And I know that, you know, I talk with my sister and she goes to Whole Foods because she's not as much of a food as we, and not in the business, but she wants to eat responsibly and she goes to Whole Foods'cause she says, you know, I don't need to, I don't need to think about it, but I trust that they've thought about it for us.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Now you talk about.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: Having stakeholders from the community come in to try and figure out what is a responsible way of sourcing food, but how in the company do you make that decision?
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: Is it, is it voted on by all the employees?
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: Are there a few people that make those decisions?
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: How does that happen?
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: Well, we have quite a series of meetings when we're dealing whatever area that we're looking into with the quality standards first, getting the input from all the experts that we've, you know, literally found around the world when whatever the specific topic that we're looking at.
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: And then we talk about it within the buyers of that group and what do they know is from their buying experience to add into that.
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: And then we come up with a draft on the standards and then put that through.
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: Our executive council in the company so that we have several layers of people looking at it just to make sure that everything has been considered and evaluated because it's a multi-stakeholder from outside and, and also within the company.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: You know, I, I wanna talk about the, an issue that Mark and I say all the time and, and.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: It seems to hold sway with Whole Foods, but I wonder if there's a dissonance there inside the company.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: We always say that if I sent you out in, in the height of, of August in New Jersey and I, I, I sent two people out on two different missions and I sent.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: I sent one guy to find the most flavorful, wonderful, complex juicy tomato that he could possibly find to bring back to the restaurant, and I sent another guy out to find the most responsibly grown local nearby, you know, traditionally grown tomato.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Those guys are gonna find themselves staring at the same tomato somewhere.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: You
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: know, the quality and, and all these other issues.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: You know, the good thing about it is we say we're not asking people to, uh, to sacrifice to do good.
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: You know, we say, and this is one area where you can do good by doing well, you know, you can eat better.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: But is there ever a, a dichotomy where you say, you know, that's the most delicious thing, but it's not really responsibly grown?
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, I think years ago that this, how that was even more of a dilemma for us, but I think over the years we've had a lot of producers looking at this in two ways.
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: One.
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: They, many of them are saying, great, now there's a market for what I've been really wanting to do.
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: And then two, you know, consumers are actually tasting the product and seeing how much better it does taste.
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: How an animal is raised is very aligned with this, how fruit and vegetable, I mean everything, the way that you either produce a food can really make a difference in how it tastes.
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: And I think that's what really hooks everybody on eating well.
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, certainly there's.
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: Information all over the place on what it means to you to eat well and what to do.
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: But you know, when push comes to shove, if it doesn't taste good, it isn't gonna be something that people are gonna glom onto.
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: And eating well is something that people can really resonate with.
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: So it it, the two go hand in hand, it is really a virtuous circle on how that is.
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: But I think having the producers know that there are people who want.
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: And there are also are markets that they can, they can sell it through really bodes well for all of us, whether you're a producer or a consumer.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: I want to go beyond even how an animal is raised because while both Francis and I believe that's, that's very, very important, but how it's bred and this, this conversation is becoming, become a bigger conversation with the, the whole FDA ruling on cloning and things like that.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: But how an animal is bred is also very, very important.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: What.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Mainstream animal husbandry does, is they wanna breed everything so it tastes exactly the same and it's, you can count on it being exactly the same and mediocre.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: That's, that's, that's basically what, what the goal is.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: cause you can always achieve mediocre
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: to, because mediocre is easy to achieve all the time.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: And frankly I think that's what the whole cloning thing is, is gonna end up doing as well.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Can you talk to us a little bit about, you know, where that's going?
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Trajectory we're on with kind of mainstream animal husbandry.
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: You know, I, I think that's it.
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: You know, I think the, the quest for the cheapest product around has really got us in this mess where you have mediocre food, the animal isn't being treated well, nobody's winning on this.
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: And I think the, the good news is where you have new opportunities on the market, like grass fed heritage breed.
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: You know, focusing on unique kind of breeds that have, that you can really tell a difference in the flavor.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: I mean, how many times have you heard when somebody's had an egg or some chicken that was raised from chickens able to roam around, just be out there in the environment and all that.
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: How, oh, this tastes like how I remember my great grandma or grandma used to have.
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: That kind of thing.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: Oh, the eggs are,
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: yeah.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Or the eggs are a different color and people say, oh my goodness.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: You know, look at that.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Alright.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, but this brings up some larger issues.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, one of the things that we talk about very often, uh, in the show is now that there is a market and Whole Foods is proof that there is a, a strong market for a desire for these things in, in consumers.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: One of the things we battle very often, and we've had government officials on and we've had, uh, people involved in, in the various certifying boards on to talk about this is.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: Big corporate agribusiness trying to weaken the organic standards or all of these standards by trying to sort of change what the definition of organic is or, produce things that, you know, we wouldn't consider.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: To be wholesome, but be able to put that on the label so they can get a premium for it and sort of glom onto this market.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: What's the standard or what's going on with Whole Foods and that,'cause that's gotta really concern you guys, the weakening of those standards.
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: Oh, sure.
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, we're very much involved.
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: I mean, as you had mentioned, I had.
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: Been on the National Organic Standards Board for five years, from 1995 to 2000, right.
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: When the standards are actually being developed.
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: And those certainly were spirited meetings and you know, I think we got a lot accomplished.
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: But you know, when you have a standard, that's when it really all starts.
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: You have to continue to monitor it.
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: You have to know that there's going to be other interests, you know, trying to have so that they can have an inexpensive product available.
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: And an example of that is not too long after the standards were, were actually implemented.
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: There was a particular house of representative from a state where they produce a lot of chickens and in order to reduce the amount for feed costs, he tried to slip in and actually did a clause in there that, organic feed was essentially desirable, but not, you know, depending on if it was available or not.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Not
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: necessarily so, so you could produce an organic chicken in that state without feeding it organic feed, which is not an organic chicken.
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: And so that actually was like within a huge, huge bill.
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: They call it an omnibus bill.
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: I mean, you actually think about everything on the bus is in there.
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: And some of us found out about it after, had been dealt with, uh, had been passed, and then a lot of, a lot of of representatives didn't even know it was in.
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: And so what we did is we, you know, contacted all the representatives.
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: We got our cu, our customers involved, and eventually.
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: That law was, you know, they, they went back in there and made the changes and took that out.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: I
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: mean, that's the kind of vigilance you need to do.
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: And we're doing that all the time, every day to make sure.
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: And there's also that concept of continuous improvement that is actually embedded in the whole spirit of organic, that, you know, we are always trying to encourage the producers and manufacturers to keep that consideration.
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: You know, standards are not just.
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: That you should or should not, kind of thing.
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: You also need, what can you do to actually make, to really enhance the environment.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: That's what organic's all about.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, and, and there's always somebody that's, that's gonna be looking for a loophole to make, make a few extra bucks.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: So you gotta maintain those standards Yeah.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: To, to stop those people from doing well, it's
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: funny you have, you have on the one side, you have, you know, the organic producers who really, you know, brought this about because of the spirit of the organic movement who are looking to make standards better.
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: Whereas at the same time you have, uh, some corporations who see that by making them weaker, they stand to make a lot of money.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: So, so you have these two forces that pulling and that means you, our listeners, have to pay attention.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: Uh, and you know, when, when we talk about these things on, on the air, we, uh, have engendered phone calls to legislators offices.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: And believe it or not, you know, five, ten, fifteen phone calls often makes a difference.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: 'cause these are decisions that are made in a dispersed way.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: The corporate strategy is Desi decided in a central location, but they can chip away, you know, in states, in counties.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Everywhere.
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: So we have to be
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: careful and I can emphasize that more than as much as I really would like to is how important those calls are.
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: In fact, even in that one incident that I was just telling you about and, and I think we were quite influential of just at at least getting that out in the public mind and.
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: You know, trying to get this change.
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: It was interesting in the congressional newspaper for the, and they had even mentioned how influential our calls were, you know, that the consumers did, because it, it does make an impact for'em.
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: It's almost like there's, and there's not an an exact little mark on how they figured it out, but.
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: Somebody actually calling is equal.
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: Several kind of letters.
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: 'cause a lot of times they just get form letters.
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: And you know, you need to have more than that, you know, you know, that's nice just seeing 600 letters come in, but the actual information on it, if it's unique, they really pay attention
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: to it.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: We're gonna take a quick break.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: We're gonna come back, uh, more and talk more with Margaret Wittenberg and we're gonna talk about her new book, new Good Food, which is a valuable resource for you to use.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: Hey everybody.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: Welcome back.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: It's Mark and France.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: It's the restaurant guys.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: We're talking with Margaret Wittenberg of Whole Foods.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: She is a, an authority on natural and organic foods generally, as well as being, having been called the conscience of Whole Foods.
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: She also has a new book out, which we're gonna talk about right now called New Good Food Essential Ingredients for Cooking and Eating Well, Margaret, we talked earlier in the show about how it's getting.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Sort of more complicated to try and eat responsibly and well and healthfully.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Is that why this book is to help people figure out how to buy stuff?
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: Yes, because it's, it's interesting.
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: I think people can get so mired into what to do.
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: I don't know what to do, and the worry what I wrote this book so people could know what good food is and really enjoy it.
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: You know, I think if you understand all the wonderful foods that are around and, you know, explore the possibilities, you can just really get right in there and eat well, and the rest just comes with it.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Margaret, one of the cha, I mean, Francis and I spend a constant amount of time railing on high fructose corn syrup and, and the damage it does to, to our bodies and the bodies of our children.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: And, you spend a lot of time talking about sweeteners, a whole chapter just on sweeteners.
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of the alternatives that we have?
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: Oh yes.
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: You know, there's, there's a myriad of alternatives.
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: You know, I think people are certainly aware, well, sugar is, is actually a natural product because it's from sugar cane, but there's also a lot of other natural sweeteners that people are, are somewhat aware of, but they haven't been using them as.
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: On a regular basis, as I, I think once they try'em, it's just a lot of fun to play with, you know, certainly no honey and, and maple syrup.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: But there's also things like agave nectar, that's a new one that's out there, and it's from the same plant that tequila comes from, so that that can't be bad.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: We're even using that one in cocktails now.
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: Oh, great, great.
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: I think it's one that people are, are really en enjoying.
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: It's similar in its effect, you know, like honey, it's a high in fruit toast.
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: So when you bake with it, you know you're going to have, you know, moist rather than.
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: Crispy as you would get with maple syrup and that kind of thing.
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: But you know, there's a lot of that date sugar.
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: I mean, there's a lot of different sweeteners to play with and they all have their different flavors, their different properties and Well,
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: I think one of the things that's interesting is your book is written in a very simple and accessible way.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, right from the table of contents, which lets you zero and on something you might be interested in.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: But one of the things I think that's frustrating for.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: Um, people who say wanna substitute something in place of sugar initially, they'll go to, uh, non-nutritive artificial sweeteners, which always have an aftertaste, which a lot of studies show you don't lose any weight by using those.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: But there are different things that you can substitute, like maple syrup, but it works in some applications and it doesn't work in other applications.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: So knowing the difference between agave nectar and what maple syrup might work in and what honey might work in, I mean, that's really helpful if you're cooking at home or baking at home, and that really works in your book here, I think that works for a lot of things, whether it's flowers or nuts and seeds.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Do you find that people have lost the information because you think maybe it.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: In prior generational shifts, it would've been handed down from your grandmother, but.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: It just skipped a generation somehow.
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: I do believe that.
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: In fact, I remember uh, the day that one of my aunts introduced my, my mother to instant mashed potatoes and you know, that was one of the things, and I'm a child of the fifties and sixties.
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: To me, that was where I had the start of where it convenience kind of took over.
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: Some of the skills that you know, that people have used and passed on for time and time along, and I think people are, have the misinformation that cooking from scratch, if you wanna call it that way, is really a long process.
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: I mean, there, within the book, I try to emphasize if you wanna spend a lot of time in cooking, you can.
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: And that's what I do on weekends and, and that kind of thing.
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: But during the week, I know that I can cook, eat really well, and cook very quickly.
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: By focusing on what foods are, are really quick to cook and, and really delicious and what to do
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: or eat a bag of nuts
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: or eat a bag, and nuts are very good.
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: I think that was one of the things in, in my book too, that I really emphasized is that nuts are not just for snacks.
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, they're great snacks.
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: But
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: the value that the nutrients that they, it's.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: The good fats are what are now being touted as really important in our lives.
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: And, and nuts certainly provide that.
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: You know, it's funny, I, this is a very dumbed down simplified example, but I, I've always wondered at, at Country Time Lemonade, and I'm probably gonna get sued for saying this, but I've always wondered at Country Time Lemonade, they had the commercials with the grandfather sitting on the porch in the prairie talking about when I was younger, we'd make lemonade and like, you made lemonade with high fructose corn syrup when you were younger.
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: Grandpa.
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: We don't get that.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: And then I think to myself, okay, you're home if you've got lemons and, and sugar.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: And water or you've got the country time lemonade can and water.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: Is it really that much more difficult to squeeze lemons into water and put sugar in there than it is to, it would strike me.
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: It's harder to scoop the the sugar stuff in there because you've got something to throw out.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: I mean,
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: you know, that's all good.
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: That's just all marketing.
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, if for a food manufacturer, it's in their best interest to have people feel like cooking.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: Is really a tough and arduous thing and takes just forever, and we're just so busy that we don't have time to do that, and here they are to save us.
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: I mean,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: well,
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: that, that's the whole mantra.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: hey, well we don't, we don't mind that so much, Margaret.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: We think you should go out to dinner.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: Well, I agree.
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: I agree.
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: I mean, but in your restaurants and really good restaurants, you're actually dealing with food, you know?
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: Rather than some chemicals thrown together that kind of look like
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: it.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: I always hate to end the conversation, especially when someone's complimenting me.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: But Margaret, we have to leave it there and thanks for coming on the show.
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: Oh, it's been fun.
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: I appreciate it.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Thanks so much.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Keep up the great work at Whole Foods.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: You'll be back with the restaurant guys in just a moment.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Hey everybody.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Welcome back.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: It's Mark and Francis for Restaurant Guys.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: You know us.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: You know what I was thinking about the whole time at the last part of the segment where
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: we're going for lunch.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: No, you said a bag of nuts.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: And um, my favorite thing to do in Whole Foods, and I don't know that it's that healthy, but in Whole Foods they have the, the peanut butter.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Oh
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: yeah.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: It's Miss the Grinding Machine.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: I know the
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: one you're talking about.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: Like if they're peanuts and you grind them into peanut and it comes out as hot peanut butter and
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: it smells great,
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: and they have the regular.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: The honey, uh, the honey roasted peanuts and the salted and the honey roasted also has some salt on'em.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: I take the honey roasted and whenever I'm there, I, I go and I buy like the smallest container of it.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: And Jennifer laughs at me because, um.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: You know, I buy all this wholesome, healthy stuff and then I buy a really dark chocolate bar on the way out.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Talk about two great tastes.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: It tastes great together.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: The honey salted one,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: and
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: I'm
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: sorry, Reese's Peanut Cups.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Reese's Peanut Butter Cups Good.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Is a great idea.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: They're
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: good.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Okay, but because peanut butter.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: And chocolate are magical together, especially when you get a really great dark.
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: I wonder
• 34:07
  if
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: market chocolate,
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: I wonder if Margaret Wittenberg would be mad at me if she knew that that's what I did with the whole group.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: I didn't just go have a healthy meal.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Hey, listen everybody, I hope that you've enjoyed the hour listening to the restaurant guys, uh, talking about one of of our favorite stores.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: Uh, we'll be back tomorrow.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: I'm Francis Shot.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: And our Mark Pascal.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: We are the restaurant guys, 1450 WCTC.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: The time is 12 noon.