Latest / IMI Podcasts / #10: Katie the Russian: The Boldest Marketer in Investment Migration

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#10: Katie the Russian: The Boldest Marketer in Investment Migration · IMI Podcasts

0:02
SPEAKER_03: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
0:04
SPEAKER_03: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
0:05
SPEAKER_03: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
0:06
SPEAKER_03: in St.
0:07
SPEAKER_03: Kitts.
0:07
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to a new episode of Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
0:17
SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Christian Nesem, editor of Investment Migration Insider, and with me in today's episode I have my regular co-hosts, Ahmad Abbas and Roelio Cáceres, as well as our guest this week, Katie Ananina.
0:30
SPEAKER_03: Katie, better known by her Twitter handle, Katie the Russian, takes a marketing approach that's different from almost all other investment migration consultants.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: Focusing the entirety of her customer acquisition strategy on Twitter, she finds 100% of her clients through that platform.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: Addressing an audience almost exclusively composed of relatively young, freedom-loving, government skeptic crypto enthusiasts, she's not afraid to employ verbiage that would mortify her typically more punctilious peers in the investment migration industry.
1:03
SPEAKER_03: Her uninhibited and audacious style has allowed the 26-year-old entrepreneur and former professional sailboat racer who grew up in Cheliabinsk, thousands of miles from the ocean, to quickly build out her company's customer base and her personal brand.
1:17
SPEAKER_03: Over the last few months, she's made appearances on Fox, CNBC, and a host of other mainstream outlets and has built a Twitter following of more than 35,000 virtually overnight.
1:28
SPEAKER_03: We asked Katie whether she was being provocative on purpose as a part of a PR strategy and why she focuses so exclusively on the crypto migration space.
1:39
SPEAKER_03: Katie also told us her backstory from growing up in Russia with liberty-minded parents to joining the Russian national sailing team at the tender age of 11, dropping out of her elite university, experiencing ruble hyperinflation, having trouble traveling on a Russian passport, to investing in Bitcoin, planting flags, buying new citizenships, and eventually helping kindred spirits to do the same.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: We pointed out that KD has built a personal brand.
2:07
SPEAKER_03: Other industry participants typically build the brands of their companies.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: We discussed some of the pros and cons of building personal brands, such as the ability to gain client trust more rapidly, but at the price of losing much of your anonymity.
2:21
SPEAKER_03: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
2:25
SPEAKER_03: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI's stories on our website, imidailily.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
2:36
SPEAKER_03: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
2:43
SPEAKER_03: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: Katie, I'm really, really excited to have you on the show because you are, in some important respects, very, very different from the guests that we usually have.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: I'll explain what I mean by that in a little bit, but first I wanna remark on your astonishingly quick rise to prominence within the investment migration space.
3:17
SPEAKER_03: The first time I heard about Plan B Passport, which is your company, was actually from Yuri and Roelio.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: And it's maybe just a year ago.
3:27
SPEAKER_03: And I didn't know that it was you, Katie the Russian, who I'd already been following for a while on Twitter, not because of your investment migration stuff, but because of your crypto tweets.
3:36
SPEAKER_03: And I didn't know that you were behind Plan B until very recently.
3:39
SPEAKER_03: And then suddenly, out of nowhere, out of left field, you start making appearances in major mainstream media.
3:48
SPEAKER_03: You appeared on Fox and CNBC recently, I believe, and a whole host of other big outlets that outlets.
3:56
SPEAKER_03: And I asked myself, wow, how is she able to get so much attention so quickly?
4:02
SPEAKER_03: And so I went back to your Twitter account and I looked again at some of your tweets, and I thought, uh yeah, makes sense that this would raise eyebrows in the mainstream media.
4:12
SPEAKER_03: So if I if I were to describe your Twitter account with just a few adjectives, I think I would say that it's irreverent, provocative, honest, and unapologetic.
4:24
SPEAKER_03: I think a good example uh is the Pete that you have pinned right now, uh, which I'll I'll read right now so people can get an idea of what I'm talking about, just to let the audience know first that it contains some expletives, so any overly sensitive readers might want to skip this part.
4:40
SPEAKER_03: So Katie the Russian, this is from November 2019, said, We already have fuck you money, we definitely have fuck you mentality.
4:50
SPEAKER_03: Here are the fuck you passports, and then you go on to you go on to talk about uh St.
4:57
SPEAKER_03: Kitts and Vanuatu and Grenada, and uh I listen, I think it's an excellent, succinct description of at least one of the use cases for citizenship by investment.
5:08
SPEAKER_03: The thing is, I personally don't feel at liberty to speak that frankly.
5:12
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know anybody else in this industry, maybe with the exception of Andrew Henderson from Nomad Capitalist, who do feel uh able to speak that frankly.
5:24
SPEAKER_03: But you're not afraid to tell it like it is, and and you're reaping the rewards for that by quickly gaining a big audience and making waves in the mainstream media.
5:33
SPEAKER_03: So I guess my first question to you, Katie, is are you being provocative on purpose as a PR strategy?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: That's definitely the first time I I put these two pieces together just by you saying it.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: I never realized that um I'm different from other industry players in the way that I bring the product to the market.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: Because for me, uh that's what it is, right?
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Like I got into this industry because I realized how aligned it is philosophically with me, with all the things that I believe in.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: And one of those things is that we need to hedge against our governments, therefore, like we need to push back in a lot of ways, and one of the ways to push back on your local government is to say fuck you and go to another jurisdiction.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, so for me, it was a very straightforward way to go to the market.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh like that's that's what I am, that's what I believe uh in terms of what my business is.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely not for not kind of clickbait, it's definitely not uh me trying to take a niche because like in the way that this marketing is built, it's just how I see my business.
6:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, I'm not suggesting it's uh clickbait or anything like that, just that uh you differentiate yourself by being not so.
6:57
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think a lot of the people in this industry are lawyers or accountants, people who went to school, people have titles, people are members of professional organizations.
7:06
SPEAKER_03: They're a little bit more measured, uh a little bit more, you know, they let's say they they consider their words more before they speak, that type of thing.
7:15
SPEAKER_03: You seem to be very free, you know, obviously.
7:18
SPEAKER_03: Yes, and and you're completely right.
7:20
SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of people get into this investment migration space because of a sort of anarchist slash libertarian slash sovereign individual um mindset.
7:30
SPEAKER_03: And and that obviously has uh there's a big overlap between that and the crypto space that that I think uh there's a natural overlap there, and you're you're wise to um get into get involved in that intersection.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: But so so I'm not saying it's it's uh clickbait, just that you seem you seem unafraid, you seem very unafraid to to speak your mind about that.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: And it's really refreshing, and it explains a lot to me about how you've been able to reach that kind of prominence in in no time at all.
8:02
SPEAKER_03: Uh I I remember reading somewhere that you had said you get all your clients from your Twitter account.
8:09
SPEAKER_03: Is that is that the only marketing you do?
8:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't do anything else outside of basically social media and the podcasting space.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of my clients a lot of my like my tech team keeps saying, let's get into sale, let's get into uh you know pay-per-click and all that stuff, you know, traditional marketing channels for the industry.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: But I don't really want that.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love my audience.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: So my audience is perfect for me.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: I know their pain points, I know their goals, I know their needs, and they do trust me because I believe that I'm most likely the most educated on Bitcoin stuff person in migration space.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: So when they come to me, um I understand their problems better than anybody else in the industry, and I can speak their language.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: So I want my audience to be the way they are.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: It's Bitcoiners, it's people who believe in so many individual thesis, but speak the same language, we're comfortable with each other, we trust each other, and I don't want cold leads.
9:12
SPEAKER_03: I think that's how you are able to speak so freely because the people you are speaking to are the people who are interested in exactly those things of uh getting out from under the yoke of government oppression.
9:26
SPEAKER_03: And and I think that most people in this industry are trying to reach a much broader audience than that.
9:33
SPEAKER_03: So uh you're reaching the libertarians, the the crypto enthusiasts.
9:37
SPEAKER_03: Most people take a uh cast a wider net, so to speak, try to reach high net worth individuals from Dubai to Manila to New York, right?
9:48
SPEAKER_03: And and then you have to be more uh more neutral, I guess, in your approach.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: Whereas you're looking at that niche market, and we'll talk about the the crypto plus investment migration niche market because it's growing very, very quickly.
10:03
SPEAKER_03: And indeed, we did an analysis, we'll talk about that later, but suffice it to say uh it grew about 10x uh over the last 18-19 months.
10:15
SPEAKER_03: So uh, but before we go on, I want the audience to get to know you a little bit better because even though everybody in the crypto space has likely heard of you, in the investment migration industry, that's not necessarily the case, at least not B2B.
10:30
SPEAKER_03: Um, and you also have a very, I would say, idiosyncratic backstory.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: You've been a professional sailboat racer, uh, you're from Cheliabinsk originally, but you have a US green card.
10:43
SPEAKER_03: Uh I guess you're in Texas today.
10:45
SPEAKER_03: And uh long before you became a CBI consultant, you were uh active in the crypto space.
10:51
SPEAKER_03: So why don't you give us a quick overview of how you ended up doing what you're doing now?
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I'm um have you seen the movie Um Slam Dog Millionaire?
11:05
SPEAKER_03: No.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: So in the movie, what happens is it's an Indian guy who ends up on a show who wants to be a millionaire, and he just started.
11:19
SPEAKER_03: I thought you said slam dunk millionaire.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: You said slumdog.
11:23
SPEAKER_03: Okay, got it.
11:23
SPEAKER_03: Yes, the one in Oscar and all that.
11:25
SPEAKER_03: Okay, sorry.
11:26
SPEAKER_03: I would watch Slam Dunk Millionaire.
11:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
11:29
SPEAKER_03: Okay, yes, uh, yes, I have seen Slum Dog Millionaire.
11:33
SPEAKER_03: Sorry, Katie.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: I really like this movie, and I feel like that in a way I kind of went through the same journey.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, my life wasn't that bad.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: I was uh raised in a very happy family, but basically what happened is through all my experiences as a child and as a teenager and then a young adult, it kind of brought me into the space of being a like into the position of being a bitcoiner, being into fact theory, being into sovereignty and all the things that I'm now so passionate about.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: So uh since I was nine, I was um I got into sailing, and at the age of 11, I got into national team, Russian national team.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: So I started traveling the world with the national team.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: Basically, I've been out of my hometown for probably like seven, eight months out of a year, just traveling mostly Europe and south of Russia.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: So I kind of became unschooled just because I had to do that, right?
12:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm already traveling the world, seeing different cultures.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing that there is not just one culture that is right, there are different people, and uh, you know, we have different opinions, and it's fine.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And I was raised in a libertarian family, I would say.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: My dad is a former city prosecutor who uh quit the year I was born.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: And the reason my dad quit because he was uh not aligned with the system that was currently in place.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: So um at the same time, I started my little businesses, so my parents always wanted me to have everything I needed, but always worked for it as well.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: So um, for example, my first sailboat I bought with my own money.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: It was um$1,200 as I remember now.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And the way I made those money at the age of 10 and a half is I was selling rave bracelets at a rave festival uh in my hometown.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: So obviously they helped me out to you know get the inventory and all that stuff, but then I was selling those rave bracelets for three days in a row to get enough money to buy my first sailboat.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: So um I was raised entrepreneur as well.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: And then just throughout years and years, I'm still traveling the world, I'm going into the Ivy League of Russia to study economics and finance.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And two years in, I'm realizing that this education doesn't really provide me with knowledge I can use in real life.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: It's super old school, it's outdated, it's very theoretical, and I just dropped out.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh, that was my first big fuck you, and my parents really supported me in that, and I was like, it makes no sense.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: So I dropped out of school after two years, and I was like, I'm moving to the States now.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: I I'm not sure exactly why.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm not like I was thinking that I would go back into school in the US, get a professional, like get a athletic scholarship, and go into American, I believe.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Maybe the education would be different.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: But uh at this point I did not speak any English by the way, so I had to like go back to my hometown, learn the language in a matter of five months, move to the States, and then consider going into school.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: But at this point, I already realized that school doesn't really um well, it helps you on different levels, but also it's not the only way to get to the point where I wanted to be.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: And I just started hustling, uh became entrepreneur right away.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: And like as I was going through my own immigration to the States as a 20-year-old girl, I realized that having multiple residencies, multiple passports, or even just multiple driver licenses already helps you in different ways, it's like gives you choices, right?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, damn, like there must be a bigger concept than that.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: And like if I'm playing this little jurisdictional arbitrage on such a tiny level, I bet there's an industry behind that.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And um, I already found my tribe in a libertarian community, anarchy community, and uh started educating myself more on the flag theory because they told me more about that.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's how I found that.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: And I was fascinated right away, and I was like, hell yeah, that's it, that's that's the thing that I believe in that is super aligned with Bitcoin stuff, and I just proceeded to get more educated on that and later on founded a company.
15:59
SPEAKER_03: And so uh you you compared it to you you say you really like the movie Slum Dog Millionaire.
16:05
SPEAKER_03: Now, if I remember correctly, it's kind of uh like a who wants to be a millionaire type of game show, and there's a kid from the slum who's very knowledgeable, but he's from the wrong cast, I guess, and uh he meets with all this opposition that you know this is not for you.
16:22
SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, well, you're you're not you're not the type of person who should be having wealth, uh, you know, know your place, that type of thing.
16:29
SPEAKER_03: And I can imagine, obviously, um, I mean, it's it's it's hard enough being a libertarian in the United States or in Europe, but uh, but in Russia, considering its past and considering the uh, I guess, you know, people have a very strong faith in in the nation, that we're very proud of their nation.
16:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, they are not what I would characterize as you know having libertarian tendencies most of the time.
16:55
SPEAKER_03: Um but since you drew the parallel to Slum Dog Millionaire, how how was it you felt that sort of the the environment or the system around you in Russia was holding you down or not wanting you to rise up?
17:10
SPEAKER_03: Uh, how did you feel that?
17:12
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily in this, in this way I compare myself to the movie Slam Dog Millionaire.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: It's that I would always have problems with visas as a like on a Russian passport, you can't travel anywhere.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: So that was you know the first pillar of that.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Then during my lifetime only, we had too hyperinflation in Russia, and like you know, that what makes you understand Bitcoin much faster.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: And then just traveling the world, like all these little pieces, little experiences in my life brought me to the point where I am.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: So, in this way, I mostly compare myself to the slam dog millionaire.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Now, about what you said regarding Russia and libertarianism there, I actually believe that um all life goes in cycles, right?
17:59
SPEAKER_01: So, we in Russia, I would say anarchists on default.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: It may not be necessarily a philosophy in many heads of ours of our citizens, but it's that But there's distrust of the government.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: During the last 120 years, we've been what monarchy, communism, democracy with the same president for 20 years, you know, all this weird stuff.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: So we tried everything and nothing really worked.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh therefore, people just stopped relying on the government and uh started relying on their family, uh their support system that they built throughout the years, and themselves.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: And that's basically what I believe in as well.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Katie, do you think most of your clients, you know, have that same mentality that you have?
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Do they respond to it specially, or are you just getting you know the typical high net worth individual that's coming up and looking for a citizenship?
18:55
SPEAKER_01: No, definitely my clients are my tribe.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Like probably most other industry players would get on a call of ours and be like, what are they talking about?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: There's so much um, you know, different language going on.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the way we talk, you know, all the memes that we're using on Twitter, we're using in our conversation when talking about different CBI programs, and it's pretty cool.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: And um also, like I mentioned that I'm probably the most educated on Bitcoin stuff.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, I work with Bitcoin collateralized loans, and people are not familiar with those things, even so, so it's like untox non-toxable event.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: It's a very convenient way to find your to find your password.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to sell Bitcoin in order to do that.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: So, like, that's one thing that nobody in the industry uses, but you know, just giving them a hint right now, go look it up.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Friends don't don't let friends sell Bitcoin, that that's what it is.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: And also another thing that I understand more than other people is that um delayed gratification and low-time preference, right?
19:57
SPEAKER_01: All that good stuff.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, so for people, when they when they're trying to figure out should they go with real estate or with uh donation option, it's basically for my clients it's 95% donation because of the opportunity cost.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: For them, freezing 250 grand into real estate for five years instead of buying Bitcoin is like, what are you talking about?
20:23
SPEAKER_01: And I bet for any people in other industries, like that's a totally normal way.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: I believe that the percentage of people going with real estate in other companies is much higher than at Plan B because of the opportunity cost.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: So I understand all those things.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I understand things like time in the market to buy the passport, right?
20:42
SPEAKER_01: So we we talk the same language, we feel comfortable with that, and I I don't want to work with any other clients.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm really comfortable working with my tribe.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: Like that's one of the things that I'm thankful for Bitcoin, not because of all the gains.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Bitcoin is a beautiful thing on many levels, and it like it will fix the world uh in many ways, but it also helped me find my tribe, people that I'm so philosophically aligned with, and working with them uh as them being customers of plan B is just amazing.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I I think there's definitely a lot in uh what you say about uh deferral of gratification, because in this case, uh Bitcoin is like the muffin that you tell the kid uh, you know, don't eat this muffin for the next 20 minutes, and you'll get a second muffin uh when I come back in in 20 minutes, right?
21:38
SPEAKER_03: And so huge astronomical opportunity costs of spending your Bitcoin.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: So if you can you if you can uh finance your citizenship by investment by collateralizing your Bitcoin and not having to spend it, uh if you have that kind of solution in place, I think uh it's extremely attractive to the the the market segment that's primarily wealthy.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: Off of crypto.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: You mentioned also how in Russia you are, you said libertarian by default, I think, just because you've had all these systems that didn't work out.
22:11
SPEAKER_03: So there's a sort of uh uh people are tired or they are jaded, let's say, when it comes to government.
22:19
SPEAKER_03: They have no illusions, nobody in I mean, for for me it's very different, right?
22:23
SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm in I'm from Norway, and Norway is like one of the least bad states.
22:28
SPEAKER_03: Uh so it's extremely it's a lot more difficult for me to argue against the state because most people in Norway they have this view of the state as a as a paternal paternal institution that takes care of you from cradle to grave, and that's not true, but it's more true in Norway than it is in Russia, right?
22:49
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that generally Eastern Europe, the the countries that used to be behind the Iron Curtain, in some ways, because communism is just like a generation or two away, uh generation or two ago, you are still vaccinated in a way.
23:07
SPEAKER_03: You're still inoculated against that kind of thinking, that kind of fantasy about the government.
23:14
SPEAKER_03: Whereas in Western Europe, either we've never had full-blown communism, so we we can have like romantic ideas about socialism and how maybe it can work if we structure it correctly, you know.
23:28
SPEAKER_03: Um and I think we also see that it is in those countries where you where there is the least trust in government and where the currencies are the most unstable, those are the same countries that have the highest rates of crypto adoption.
23:44
SPEAKER_03: Now, Katie, by investment migration industry standards, you're relatively new and your company isn't among the biggest.
23:52
SPEAKER_03: In fact, I'll go so far as to say that many industry people don't even know you.
23:56
SPEAKER_03: They will after this, of course, but uh up until now a lot of them don't know who you are.
24:02
SPEAKER_03: But if we zoom in on the crypto-related CBI market and consider that in isolation, you are huge.
24:10
SPEAKER_03: I mean, who who else is so narrowly focused on crypto and citizenship by investment?
24:18
SPEAKER_03: That intersection.
24:19
SPEAKER_03: I guess Andrew Henderson at Nomad Capitalist, he talks a lot about crypto, but he's not all about crypto, right?
24:26
SPEAKER_03: It's crypto is a is a is a part of what he talks about.
24:30
SPEAKER_03: But for you, it's all about crypto.
24:33
SPEAKER_03: Um, what do you think?
24:34
SPEAKER_03: Like, are there any other people out there that's doing the same thing as you, or are you alone in this?
24:41
SPEAKER_01: I would say more people will come in when they realize there's an opportunity here.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh my go-to-market was more genuine because I was already into this thing so deeply, and that's like one of my biggest passions in life.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: So I believe that I gathered my uh my audience pretty well, and uh I'm gaining more trust, and that's what I'm trying to establish, right?
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Um my capitalist blocked me on Twitter, so I consider it, you know, it's a it's a it's a good sign.
25:14
SPEAKER_03: Another important difference, and this is something you have in common with Andrew, um, but another important difference between you and most of the rest of the industry is that while other people are building the brands of their companies, you are building a personal brand.
25:30
SPEAKER_03: And I was thinking about it the other day, and it it strikes me that this is a very millennial thing to do.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: It used to be that, okay, you would build a business and then you would hire people, and you would try to make the business run on its own without needing your input so that one day you could uh later down the road sell it off and cash out on that.
25:50
SPEAKER_03: And that's why you would build the brand and not the personal brand, the brand of the company instead of a personal brand.
25:58
SPEAKER_03: But now more and more people are building personal brands instead of company brands.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: You're doing this.
26:04
SPEAKER_03: So, well, I guess you're building the brand of Plan B Passport, but Katie the Russian is a bigger brand than Plan B Passport.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Um now, the disadvantage of building a personal brand, as far as I can tell, is that A, you can't really sell off your company and cash out.
26:22
SPEAKER_03: So, like, uh what would nomad capitalist be without Andrew Henderson, right?
26:27
SPEAKER_03: And B, you lose some anonymity and there are risks that come with that.
26:32
SPEAKER_03: The advantages though are also significant.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh, you can grow faster because um, I think what what is it they say that um people don't buy from companies, people buy from people, right?
26:45
SPEAKER_03: So when you put your name and face on whatever it is you're selling, uh you're putting a reputation on the line.
26:51
SPEAKER_03: And it's easier then for people that trust you with their money.
26:54
SPEAKER_03: And another benefit is that when you build a personal brand as opposed to a company brand, you can easily change what it is you do professionally, what you do for a business.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: So, what I mean is um uh a company that spent years building a reputation as being a leading investment migration firm, like like Rogelio is doing um with GRCG, can't suddenly say, okay, from from now on we're gonna be an RB record label, right?
27:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh or sorry, Rogelio, correct me if I'm wrong, but GRCG is global residency and citizenship group.
27:31
SPEAKER_03: It's not global Rogelio Casaritz group, right?
27:35
SPEAKER_03: No, okay, good.
27:36
SPEAKER_03: So so someone who's built a personal brand can easily change what it is they're doing and selling.
27:43
SPEAKER_03: So one example of this that I thought of is Mike Cernovich.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you know who he is.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: Probably you know who Mike Cernovich is, but what does that brand mean?
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Mike Cernovich, what does that brand mean?
27:53
SPEAKER_03: Is he a is he a book author?
27:55
SPEAKER_03: Is he a documentary filmmaker?
27:56
SPEAKER_03: Is he a supplement salesman?
27:58
SPEAKER_03: Is he a journalist, a political figure?
28:01
SPEAKER_03: Well, he's he's just Mike Cernovich, and he is all those things, and in the future he can be more things, right?
28:08
SPEAKER_03: He can put other things into the Mike Cernovich brand.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: And it's the same with you.
28:12
SPEAKER_03: So if someone asks me, who is Katie the Russian, what do I say?
28:16
SPEAKER_03: Well, you're an authority on cryptocurrencies, uh, you've been a professional seal racer, now you're also a CVI consultant, and in the future, who knows, right?
28:26
SPEAKER_03: So what I want to uh know from you is what do you think are kind of and this is a question that's directly related to my own situation.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: I'm building a brand in IMI.
28:37
SPEAKER_03: Should I instead be building Christian Nessim as a as a brand instead of building the company brand, right?
28:43
SPEAKER_03: So okay, so you sum me up that easily.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Just put your brand and I'm out.
28:53
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so yeah, indentured servitude for for you, Ahmad.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, so what I would be interested to know from you, Katie, is what do you think are the main advantages and disadvantages of building a personal brand versus building your company brand?
29:08
SPEAKER_03: And why did you decide to build a personal brand?
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, one thing that I wanna throw there right away is I didn't decide.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: That was a very natural thing, so it wasn't that like, okay, what is our go-to-market strategy?
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we're gonna shitpost on Twitter and then we're gonna open a CPI company.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: So that wasn't the way I was thinking.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was just putting my thoughts, trying to learn as much as I could about Bitcoin, about sovereignty, etc.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: etc., and just you know, throwing my thoughts on Twitter and seeing what the audience has to say about it.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: So um, Katie the Russian as a brand, like, was not built for the purpose of anything, it was just me being me, connecting with people I want to connect with and learning about Bitcoin.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's what KD the Russian on Twitter was.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Now, yes, obviously, Plan B Passport is basically built on my uh personal presence on social media.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, Plan B Passport has no social media whatsoever.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I kind of want to keep it this way.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm very comfortable with that.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I understand that probably I won't be able to sell Plan B Passport as straightforward as other companies, but I do believe that I can pee with at some point and make sure that Plan B Passport um becomes its own established brand without my face next to it and uh figure that out.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: But I also like I'm in my mid-20s.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: I I'm not sure if if I wanna do CVI stuff for the rest of my life, and we don't know what's gonna happen in the world.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: So I'm interested in a lot more than just Flack Theory and Bitcoin.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm hosting conferences a couple of times a year.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, those are underground conferences, no no tickets, um, basically no marketing.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: It's just you know, underground spread network spreading the information about the event.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: You get the uh you get the event address 24 hours prior to the event.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: So you basically don't know when it's gonna happen, where it's gonna happen.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and then people show up and learn about all the things that the way I say Bitcoiners need to know outside of Bitcoin.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: So again, all the things that are philosophically aligned with what we believe in, with sovereign individual uh thesis, but the things that you may not have been exposed to.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: So I'm really into on-schooling or homeschooling uh in different ways.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: So basically, alternative education, confusion bad, sovereign health, the ways that you can, you know, be more healthy without going through traditional medical system and uh believe in traditional medical system in a way.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, what else do we talk about?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Like home birth, even like you will think that like why would Bitcoiners care about that?
32:00
SPEAKER_01: But they're really interested in that.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: And then obviously things like 3D2A, which stands for 3D printers for Second Amendment, right?
32:08
SPEAKER_01: So 3D printing for guns, uh, that kind of stuff.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: And we just spend eight hours talking about all these things that bring more freedom to the individual, and again, it all very aligned with Katie the Russian on Twitter.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: So I can definitely use my personal brand later on to you know grow those topics, but for now it's just plan B Party.
32:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but this is what I mean.
32:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what I mean is Plan B passport can't suddenly start selling 3D printed guns for the the Second Amendment rights, right?
32:40
SPEAKER_03: Uh that would be uh too big of a leap.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: But Katie the Russian as a brand could do that.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
32:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And like I'm a former professional sailor, which is the pure censorship-resistant way to travel, right?
32:54
SPEAKER_01: So why wouldn't I go ahead and uh and teach people how to sail?
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Like sales school would really be aligned with KD the Russian brand.
33:03
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so I guess that's what you're doing, is you're not locking yourself into any particular type of business by by uh being your personal brand rather than a company brand.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: But but what about some of the the risks of putting your face and your name on everything?
33:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that that's what's you know stopping me to some extent.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't wanna uh you know, I I might write something wrong in IMI, something incorrect, and uh maybe you know I get doxxed or I get cancelled or what you know what I mean?
33:38
SPEAKER_03: If it's easier to remove my name from it and and be sort of anonymous, and then also, of course, to have something that can work without me uh that I could I could potentially sell on one day.
33:49
SPEAKER_03: But are are you do the risks involved in putting your name and face on everything uh does that give you pause ever or are you not worried about that?
34:02
SPEAKER_01: In a way, it definitely does.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: It used to it used to be more, and now as I'm learning more and more race to you know protect myself, uh protect myself legally, protect myself physically, and all that stuff, like that's that's what I'm learning on my sovereign individual journey as well.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm learning martial arts, I'm shooting guns and all that stuff.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm kind of getting more okay with that.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: But I also know that I can vanish one day.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's not easy, but if you know the tools, um you can definitely do that.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: You can vanish off the internet in a way.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's there will be a lot of things that stay there forever.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I know that going dark is a possibility, and the only reason I would do that is, you know, because of Bitcoin, most likely, because we don't know where it's gonna go 30 years from now, and I I maybe not wanting my kids to be raised under, you know, daughter of Katie the Russian or son of Katie the Russian.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, so maybe one day I'll be not Katie the Russian anymore, and my Twitter will go dark.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: And uh who knows?
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Right now I'm feeling I'm feeling comfortable.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows where I live exactly.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I keep that private.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: I make sure.
35:19
SPEAKER_03: But when you say going, when you say going dark, when you say going dark, are you talking about sort of you know breaking bad style?
35:26
SPEAKER_03: Somebody picks you up in a unmarked van with uh new papers and that kind of thing, or are we talking more like uh having uh uh an extrication plan, a plan B like like David Les Brons is always talking about, you know, having a SWAT team on standby to extract you from uh an unfriendly jurisdiction, that kind of thing.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: What what do you mean when you say going dark, practically speaking?
35:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm mostly it I'm talking about it on a much lower level.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm still a girl who wants to raise a family, you know.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't want to play James Bond stuff.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh I have very very normal needs and goals in life as well.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So for me, going dark would be more like deactivating Twitter account, uh only staying connected to my true friends, going off greed, uh raising my children on my own land, you know, growing my own food, uh having chickens in the backyard for my own eggs, collecting rainwater uh for these purposes, um, having solar energy, basically living a fully self-sufficient life when I'm not relying on greed and uh just you know living a happy life.
36:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
36:35
SPEAKER_03: What you're describing sounds like uh a beautiful gulch-gulch type of uh uh life.
36:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's very similar to what your compatriot, who your compatriot uh Ayn Rand, who also actually uh emigrated to the United States without knowing any English, and she ended up writing basically the greatest work of philosophical fiction, probably in the whole Western canon, which is ironic considering she was coming from a communist regime and didn't speak any English.
37:05
SPEAKER_03: Now, another question that I wanted to raise uh about your core market.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: Uh the crypto guys, so as I understand it, that they are the crypto millionaires, chiefly in the West.
37:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, there's an increasingly large global population of crypto millionaires who've who've suddenly come into money and are now looking for ways to enjoy that money by building ties, whatever ties mean, to crypto-friendly jurisdictions.
37:36
SPEAKER_03: So I think in February uh this year we did an analysis in IMI of the size of the crypto high net worth individual market, and we estimated that there are around 150,000 crypto high net worth individuals.
37:51
SPEAKER_03: Now that's that's the a proxy.
37:53
SPEAKER_03: That's not a it's not an accurate estimate because all we know is that there's about 150,000 wallets that have a balance in excess of uh what was the price point for that, Christian?
38:05
SPEAKER_02: That depends to know.
38:07
SPEAKER_02: The price point for what price of Bitcoin did you do that calculation?
38:12
SPEAKER_03: So this was when it uh it must have been around 50.
38:15
SPEAKER_03: Uh so it was in February sometime, sometime in February, I guess around 50, 50k for Bitcoin.
38:21
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh so there at that time when we did that, there was about 150,000 wallets of both crypto and other uh sorry, both um Bitcoin and other cryptos.
38:35
SPEAKER_03: 150,000 wallets worth more than a million.
38:38
SPEAKER_03: Uh now, of course, some people will own more than one wallet, obviously, or other people will have you know uh some like 250,000 in one wallet and 250,000 in three other wallets, and they won't be counted as millionaires, right?
38:54
SPEAKER_03: So it's a it's a very, very rough estimate.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: But say it's 150,000 uh today at around 50k, uh, and let's say that that market grows tenfold over the next two years, which should, I mean, if we believe uh plan B, not plan B passport, but plan B uh plan B on Twitter, yeah, 100 trillion, right?
39:20
SPEAKER_03: Um if we believe uh the S2F X model, uh I guess we would get to 288,000 uh sometime uh before this halving period is over.
39:31
SPEAKER_03: So talking next year.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Uh then what do you think is down point 288 by next year?
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
39:39
SPEAKER_01: It's Bitcoin, it does what it wants, it goes up and down.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you just gotta keep stacking.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's it's not any entry price points or exit price points.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's the best money that exists, and that's all where all my savings are.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it doesn't matter.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: We we go up, we go down, um, zoom out, the number goes up.
40:02
SPEAKER_03: Zoom out, the number goes up.
40:04
SPEAKER_03: It's sovereign money.
40:05
SPEAKER_03: It's sovereign money.
40:06
SPEAKER_03: That's what's important.
40:07
SPEAKER_03: Now, say it grows tenfold, that market over the next two years.
40:11
SPEAKER_03: That would bring the millionaire population of cryptoland, if I can call it that, on par with that of big, rich countries like France or Italy.
40:22
SPEAKER_03: In other words, you'd have as many millionaires in cryptoland as you have in France or Italy.
40:27
SPEAKER_03: That's a huge potential customer group, and you don't have that many other companies doing the same thing as you, Katie, uh, because you're specialized in the intersection of crypto and CBI.
40:39
SPEAKER_03: So I think you're very, very well positioned to make money if uh if prices keep moving up uh for crypto.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: Um so in your case, I think a big chunk of your target market are crypto millionaires in the US.
40:53
SPEAKER_03: Um now for them to be able to legally, so not only the US, but a big chunk of it, right?
40:59
SPEAKER_03: So but for them to be able to legally not pay capital gains tax, for example, when selling their crypto, and also to earn tax-free defy interest, um, not only would they need to become tax residents in a crypto-friendly jurisdiction like you know, Portugal or Malta or the Caribbean, uh they also would have to, by virtue of being Americans and subject to America's citizenship-based taxation, they would also need to give up their US citizenship.
41:29
SPEAKER_03: So I have a couple questions about how this would work in practice, especially now.
41:35
SPEAKER_03: So, number one, right now, uh as David Lesperance has pointed out on a number of occasions in IMI, it's really, really tricky to get expatriation appointments with U.S.
41:47
SPEAKER_03: embassies and consulates.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I've seen different estimates on the backlog, but they range from 15,000 to more than 40,000 people uh waiting to just get an appointment so they can give up their U.S.
41:59
SPEAKER_03: citizenship.
42:00
SPEAKER_03: How do you deal with that challenge?
42:03
SPEAKER_03: And the second question, which is related, is even if you are able to get an expatriation appointment as a crypto millionaire who wants to expatriate, um, if your portfolio is worth more than$2 million, you're already what's known as a covered expatriate, right?
42:20
SPEAKER_03: Which means that you could be subject to an exit tax.
42:24
SPEAKER_03: Now, obviously, I understand that many Bitcoin maximalists would prefer to pay that exit tax now rather than, you know, while Bitcoin is still relatively cheap, and then just get to a more Bitcoin-friendly jurisdiction before it hits 288,000, right?
42:40
SPEAKER_03: Uh so it's better to pay, whatever, 23% of$50,000 than of$288,000.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and others might want to get out before they become carved expatriates, so before their portfolio reaches$2 million.
42:54
SPEAKER_03: But how do you talk to your clients about expatriation, exit taxes?
42:58
SPEAKER_03: How do you get around the uh uh appointment issues with uh the different consular missions of the US to get uh uh appointments to renounce citizenship?
43:09
SPEAKER_03: How do you tackle all these complicated issues, Katie?
43:13
SPEAKER_01: So I always give disclaimers that I'm I'm not an accountant, neither I'm a lawyer.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: So I basically point out all the things that you just mentioned about the exit tax, about the difficulty of renunciation at the moment.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: And um like we've seen the numbers skyrocketing in the amount of people trying to renounce, right?
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is this?
43:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh 2020 it was 6,700 of people.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: And I would say numbers would probably be much higher this year if there were no uh limit, like if there was no problem with renunciation.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, most of my clients are like they understand that it's a huge step to renounce your home country's citizenship.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were born and raised here, it must be hard, but at the same Time that's what sovereign individual thesis is about, like the fall of nation states.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: The countries that don't provide you with the necessities you need will start losing wealth, will sell or start losing interest from people.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And like US citizens, not only do they have to pay huge capital gains, they also can participate in a lot of things in the space, right?
44:23
SPEAKER_01: Like not all the exchanges work with US citizens, and uh it's the space is highly regulated.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: So in many cases, they just want a different password just for the sake of that.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: So like this is something we should we should tell countries.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, you just said the numbers of uh of millionaires is gonna be higher than in Italy and France.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: Now those nation states should think about it the same way and be like, damn it, I'm gonna lose a lot of money if I don't become a friendly jurisdiction for those Bitcoiners.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: So that's how we're gonna make them work for us, make them work, make them compete for our fruit of our labors, make them compete for our wealth, etc.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: etc.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: So uh I talk about all that with my audience, uh, both on consulting calls as well as to my Twitter.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: And they understand that renunciation might be the only way they will have to consider.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's I don't provide services for renunciation, but um, I've been reading uh David on in the daily and I've connected with him, which is really great.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh really appreciate everything he's he's taught me so far.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: So I just connect my clients to him or somebody else and see what they can do.
45:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think uh you you bring up an extremely important point, which is um I don't know if you used that phrase, but uh jurisdictional arbitrage, right?
45:49
SPEAKER_03: And making countries compete for the fruits of your labor.
45:54
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, this is something that people have been hoping for since uh they wrote The Sovereign Individual in uh 1996, I think.
46:03
SPEAKER_03: Uh Harry Brown spoke about it in his uh How to Find Freedom in a Non-Free World.
46:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, this is very much the philosophy of Doug Casey, of Andrew Henderson, of Simon Black, uh, all these guys.
46:19
SPEAKER_03: Now, what I'm seeing though is I'm I'm not sure, like maybe I need to zoom out, but when I look at at history just uh closely, when I look at the period we're in right now, it doesn't feel like I'm getting freer.
46:33
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't feel like um the trend is towards, okay, now talent is global, everybody works remotely, so now we are forcing countries to uh treat us better and give us better terms.
46:47
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's happening in the in the broad sweep of history, but from where I'm sitting today looking into it, all I see is the government resisting crypto, they're resisting people uh moving to different countries to pay uh lower tax, they're resisting people uh domiciling their wealth uh uh arbitrarily uh in the best jurisdictions.
47:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh I feel I'm getting less free every day.
47:14
SPEAKER_03: Can you cheer me up a little, maybe, Katie?
47:16
SPEAKER_03: Are you seeing some some uh can you can you show me the big picture here?
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: So first thing first is governments will never get better uh if we nicely ask them.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: So that's where the fuck you mentality must come into play, because otherwise they just don't care.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: They're not trying to be nice to you, they're not having your interest at heart.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: So, like sometimes you like we just have to push back.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: That's that's how all the big changes in in you know uh big entities happen.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: You just have to push back, and uh that's what we're gonna see with Bitcoiners.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, we're already very disagreeable.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, we question authority, we question what money is, we found the best money that ever existed, and we keep stocking that.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: We don't lose the mentality of like I'm gonna buy Lambus, we lose the mentality that I want to see a better world and I'm gonna be committed to make it happen.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: So uh Bitcoin is pretty new what we are uh 12 years old now, and uh as the time goes by, we are gonna become stronger, more educated.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh we acquire like as time goes by, we have more fucking money, and fuck you money allows you to do to have more fucking mentality every day.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: So um I believe we will push back harder, and that's what's gonna make uh governments think better.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: Um in terms of that we become less free, like the last two years were crazy.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: The whole world went nuts.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: And uh that's again coming back to uh us being just a couple generations away from communism.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh, if we're looking back in Russia, it's funny to see how those those jurisdictions that were the most unfree 20, 40 years ago are now freer than others, right?
49:10
SPEAKER_01: You're looking at Australia, they had uh they they lived such a um happy and comfortable and a stable life for so long that now 76% of people are totally okay with mandatory lockdown throughout the whole country.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: They can't leave their country without an exemption.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: How is that a free world?
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Um so, and the same you look at Russia or you look at Mexico, or I believe 20 years from now, Venezuela is gonna be one of the coolest countries to be in just because they got this immunity over the last mostly five years.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: So I like a lot of my clients come to me like, Katie, tell me how Anti-Gay is in terms of mandatory vaccination, how zinc is in terms of walk gowns and carfew.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, guys, at this point, I can't promise you anything.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, you look at one country that is currently free, it may not be free tomorrow.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: There will be a change of politics, there will be something else.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: And at this point, we just have to be agile, we have to be ready to pick up our wealth, 12 words in your head, and flee elsewhere because that's that's what it is.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: That's how we enforce the the nation states to start competing for us.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: We have to move sometimes, we have to find a better way, um, a better jurisdiction for more freedom.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: So we can't we can't say that this part of the world is gonna be free for the next two generations, so we better settle down here.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: We just have to constantly um become more sovereign, uh limit our dependency on anything.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: So, like Plen B Password's slogan is limit your dependency on any one particular state.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: But in the same way, we need to limit our dependency on a particular supply chain.
51:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, Whole Foods may not have foods tomorrow, right?
51:06
SPEAKER_01: So, like, consider that.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the education that your child is getting may not be the same education 10 years from now.
51:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, kids go into school in masks right now.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is this about?
51:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is not cool, and um, you know, the level of education they're getting, I'm also not really happy about.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: So, like, you gotta consider all those things that you need to fix in your life and just constantly, step by step, taking those, uh, taking those steps towards freedom.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: And it kind of sucks because like we're not born in a free world and then we become unfree by choice.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: We're basically born into being somewhat not free, and then we have to take steps and you know move towards freedom and try to acquire, obtain more freedom.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: And it takes effort, it takes money, it takes knowledge, it's not easy.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: But that's still a very, very uh good journey to take, I would say.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: It uh it brings you joy, it brings like it's it's for passionate people.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not easy, but it's rewarding, I would say.
52:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's rewarding in itself.
52:17
SPEAKER_03: Like even if even if the rest of the world is not finding freedom, at least you and the people around you are able to find some measure of freedom through taking these important steps.
52:28
SPEAKER_03: And of course, I think um you you make a really excellent point with you know, the because the people who love freedom also love Bitcoin, also love uh you know, cryptocurrency, there's such a huge overlap there that now that we're in this biggest wealth transfer in history, uh all the like so such a big chunk of the people who are getting rich from that are the exactly the people who do value freedom.
52:56
SPEAKER_03: And uh when they have more money, they have more influence.
53:00
SPEAKER_03: So that probably is is one of the things that'll uh be the game changer.
53:05
SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, if we have thousands of billionaire libertarians, and it's not just Peter Thiel anymore uh up on the barricades, but you know, uh thousands of other freedom lovers who who have all this crypto, then yeah, that could be a great world.
53:21
SPEAKER_03: So um, Roelio, you wanted to uh ask a question.
53:24
SPEAKER_02: So a couple questions, Katie.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: One on El Salvador.
53:28
SPEAKER_02: What do you think of their BTC residency program?
53:32
SPEAKER_02: What's the uh what are your thoughts there?
53:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh I actually made a call with immigration, um, like their immigration entity.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and thank God I speak some Spanish now because nobody could speak English to me and explain me what the program actually is.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: So that was pretty convenient.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: Um currently they have this 3Bitcoin for residency program, which I think they should they absolutely must change into citizenship program because that will really change be a game changer for them and for a lot of US citizens um as well as other citizens.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: So basically, um I know a lot of people who already move to El Salvador because of Bitcoin as a legal tender, not because it necessarily changes their uh tax game or anything like that, it's just because they believe it's the best money and they want to be on a front front row of this revolution happening, right?
54:30
SPEAKER_01: They want to see firsthands.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: So they move down there, they just you know chilling on the beach, uh building some Bitcoin stuff, uh helping people to gain more knowledge about it.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: But once they change it to citizenship, um, all those Bitcoiners from the US who are willing to renounce their US citizenship will move down to El Salvador.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: Now they will have a second passport in El Salvador where Bitcoin is money, basically a legal tender.
54:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh so you can't you're not gonna pay capital gains on money, right?
55:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I believe that will be a huge thing, and I'm kind of trying to make that happen too.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm considering just flying down there at this point because uh I wasn't too successful reaching out to who I need to reach out uh in order to help them out on that, but I think it will happen eventually.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: It's just they're they're going through such a huge change in the country right now that I understand that having another huge change may be a little tough, um, but I think it will happen.
55:33
SPEAKER_03: That's it for today, folks.
55:34
SPEAKER_03: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
55:39
SPEAKER_03: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions you have about investment migration.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
55:49
SPEAKER_03: I want to remind you to follow our work on IMIDAily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
56:07
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.