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FRAME JOB OR DEADLY ROMANCE: DID KAREN READ MOW DOWN LOVER? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:07
Speaker 2: Is it a framed job? Is there a big conspiracy?
0:10
Speaker 2: Was he set up? Or is it a deadly romance?
0:14
Speaker 2: Did Karen read mow down her lover John O'Keefe after
0:20
Speaker 2: a boozy argument. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is
0:24
Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
0:27
Speaker 3: Taking several pieces of plastic found on John O'Keefe's clothing,
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Speaker 3: Massachusetts State Police crime Lab forensic scientist Ashley Valuer shows
0:35
Speaker 3: how she was able to fit the pieces together and
0:38
Speaker 3: using tape to hold the pieces together, create a larger
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Speaker 3: piece that fits into the tail at housing from Karen
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Speaker 3: Reid's SUV.
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Speaker 2: Wow, there's a big conspiracy, so I guess that means
0:49
Speaker 2: the police are in on it. That includes the crime
0:54
Speaker 2: lab scientists. I have a very hard time believing that
1:00
Speaker 2: she Valier from the crime lab it's part of a
1:03
Speaker 2: big conspiracy to frame Karen Reid. But there are a
1:09
Speaker 2: lot of problems with the state's case. I've never gotten
1:13
Speaker 2: so much hate mail online since I said out Jay
1:16
Speaker 2: Simpson did it. I'm trying to understand what's happening in
1:22
Speaker 2: the courtroom. A vast police conspiracy. Who who's part of
1:27
Speaker 2: this conspiracy or did Karen Reid mow down her lover?
1:35
Speaker 2: Their relationship fraught with volatile arguments. What happened? Now? Remember
1:43
Speaker 2: if we're not sure, if we can't determine what happened,
1:47
Speaker 2: if the evidence is tainted in some way, then the
1:50
Speaker 2: jury's duty will be to acquit. It's the state's duty
1:56
Speaker 2: to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt, not to
2:01
Speaker 2: a mathematical certainty such as two and two equals four,
2:05
Speaker 2: but beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, this science lab professional,
2:15
Speaker 2: Ashley Valier, puts tail light pieces back together again, pieces
2:23
Speaker 2: of a tail light. She tapes it back together, and
2:29
Speaker 2: guess what it fits into Karen Read's missing section of
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Speaker 2: her SUV tail light. Okay, it's going to take a
2:42
Speaker 2: lot of convincing to make me believe that a crime
2:47
Speaker 2: lab scientist is part of a plot. But first of all,
2:53
Speaker 2: who is the victim in this case? Regardless of how
2:58
Speaker 2: he was killed, he was killed at not by natural causes,
3:05
Speaker 2: So who is he? Listen?
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Speaker 4: John JJ O'Keefe grows up in Braintree, Massachusetts, with dreams
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Speaker 4: of one day becoming a police officer. O'Keefe graduates from
3:14
Speaker 4: Northeastern university and pursues a master's degree in criminal justice
3:18
Speaker 4: from the University of Massachusetts. O'Keefe moves to Canon and
3:21
Speaker 4: becomes an officer with the Boston PD, serving on the
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Speaker 4: force for sixteen years. When O'Keefe's sister, Kristen and her husband,
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Speaker 4: Steven Furbush, pass away within two months of each other,
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Speaker 4: o'keef takes in their two young children.
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Speaker 2: Wow, okay, hold on just a moment. Let me understand something. Guys.
3:36
Speaker 2: We have an all star panel to make sense of
3:38
Speaker 2: what we know right now. I've got a criminal defense
3:40
Speaker 2: attorney who's a former federal prosecutor. I've got a renowned
3:44
Speaker 2: psychoanalyst to help me wade through this. I've got a
3:48
Speaker 2: forensic expert, the director of the Cole Case Research Institute.
3:52
Speaker 2: I have one of the most renowned medical examiners in
3:55
Speaker 2: our country, doctor Kendall Crowns. But first, let me understand something.
3:59
Speaker 2: Going out to Lauren Colin, who's joining us at the courthouse,
4:02
Speaker 2: who's been in the middle of all of this, host
4:05
Speaker 2: of the Outlier podcast, Lauren, did I hear that correctly?
4:11
Speaker 2: John O'Keefe took in his niece's nephews when his siblings died.
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Speaker 5: Yes, Nancy, You're correct. Officer John O'Keefe is such a
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Speaker 5: stand up man. His sister passed away and then a
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Speaker 5: few months later her husband passed away, so he legally
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Speaker 5: adopted their children and essentially acted as their father ever since.
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Speaker 2: Oh my stars, this is a stand up guy. And
4:38
Speaker 2: that's putting it mildly. Lauren Colin, I appreciate you joining
4:43
Speaker 2: us from the courthouse, because I'm telling you this case
4:47
Speaker 2: is explosive. When I said, hey, didn't Karen Reid say
4:53
Speaker 2: I did it? Did I hit him? And didn't the
4:56
Speaker 2: broken tail light pieces fit into her car? And did
5:01
Speaker 2: she have an incredibly over the limit blood alcohol that night?
5:06
Speaker 2: And weren't they arguing that night? And didn't she know
5:09
Speaker 2: exactly where to go look for his body? Didn't all
5:11
Speaker 2: that happen? That sounds like she's guilty. I've never gotten
5:15
Speaker 2: so much hate since the time I said, yeah, Simpson
5:19
Speaker 2: did it.
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Speaker 1: Obvious.
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Speaker 2: So I'm missing a lot, obviously, And I've been looking
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Speaker 2: at the evidence, and there are problems with some of
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Speaker 2: the evidents, specifically Ellie. Law Enforcement got on the stand
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Speaker 2: and it came out that he had said very disparaging
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Speaker 2: things about the defendant Karen Reid. Now that's bad, but
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Speaker 2: does that make her innocent? Ah, We've got so much
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Speaker 2: to weigh through. Guys, everybody listen to this.
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Speaker 3: Boston Police officer John o'keef finds love with financial advisor
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Speaker 3: Karen Reid, read forty four lectures at Bentley University while
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Speaker 3: also working for Fidelity Investments. Reid moves into O'Keeffe's home
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Speaker 3: during their two year relationship. But it's not always smooth
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Speaker 3: sailing for the couple. O'Keefe's niece and nephew hear loud
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Speaker 3: arguments between Reed and their uncle with increasing frequency. Friends
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Speaker 3: who joined the couple on a trip to Aruba report
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Speaker 3: a blowout fight between Reed and O'Keefe during the vacation.
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Speaker 2: Wow, if you can't be happy in tropical paradise, can
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Speaker 2: you be happy anywhere? Okay, that's a whole another can
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Speaker 2: of worms. I want to get to the evidence. Joining
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Speaker 2: me at the courthouse, Lauren Conlin, Lauren, tell me what's
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Speaker 2: happening right now.
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Speaker 5: So right now during this crazy trial, Nancy, and I'll
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Speaker 5: tell you it's crazy. We just left off with the
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Speaker 5: lead investigator, Trooper Michael Proctor yesterday, who was cross examined
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Speaker 5: and a lot of bad text messages came out, and look,
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Speaker 5: I agree with you, that doesn't mean that Karen Reid
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Speaker 5: is guilty per se. But again this is going to
7:00
Speaker 5: credibility now. Also on the stand yesterday where we left
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Speaker 5: off with Lieutenant Brian Tully, so he will be finishing
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Speaker 5: today with Ady A. Lally and then we'll see the
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Speaker 5: cross examination. But evidence so far it's a little bit nuanced.
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Speaker 5: I don't know if you want to get into it yet, Nancy,
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Speaker 5: but I can point out a lot of things that
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Speaker 5: you said.
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Speaker 6: I can point out the other side, the other argument.
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Speaker 2: Tim Jansen joining me Hi put the aged criminal defense
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Speaker 2: attorney and for my purposes is very important form of
7:27
Speaker 2: federal prosecutor legal analysts for the Tallahassee Democrats newspaper at
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Speaker 2: Jansenlawoffice dot com. Tim, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: I want you to jump in because I can't think
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Speaker 2: of a reason that all of these police would get
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Speaker 2: together and agree to frame somebody and not one cop
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Speaker 2: would break ranks and say, listen, that's not what happened
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Speaker 2: this other cop did. I find that really hard to believe.
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Speaker 2: But it may not take a ton of cop It
8:00
Speaker 2: might take two cops three cops that are very good
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Speaker 2: friends that join together to cover something up. But why
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Speaker 2: would a cop kill their friend? Nancy. I agree with
8:11
Speaker 2: you wholeheartedly.
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Speaker 7: I don't think it was a conspiracy if everybody involved.
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Speaker 7: I think you had an investigator who didn't go to
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Speaker 7: the crime scene, who is biased, had a relationship with
8:23
Speaker 7: these people. He said in his text message, something stinks.
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Speaker 7: I think when he got this case, there were things
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Speaker 7: that didn't add up. Okay, One, the injuries do not
8:34
Speaker 7: add up with someone getting backed up by the injuries.
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Speaker 7: The injuries looked more like somebody punched him. He might
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Speaker 7: have fallen and got it and suffered these injuries, and
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Speaker 7: the body might have been moved. He also had what
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Speaker 7: appeared to be dog bites. The dog of the owner
8:51
Speaker 7: got rid of the dog. They cleared the floor and
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Speaker 7: sold the house fifty thousand dollars less than what its
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Speaker 7: value was. Jennifer McCabe, the sister in law, at two
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Speaker 7: twenty two am, googles when how long does hyperthermia take place?
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Speaker 7: She then deleted that now this is before the body
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Speaker 7: was found, So when Proctor comes onto the case, he's
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Speaker 7: only getting what he's told and he never went to
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Speaker 7: the crime scene.
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Speaker 2: I want you, if you don't mind, one more time,
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Speaker 2: Tim Jansen, to go through what you're saying, because does
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Speaker 2: this mean she's innocent. No, it does not, But does
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Speaker 2: it cast doubt on the state's case to the extent
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Speaker 2: there will be a hung jury or an acquittal. And
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Speaker 2: I want to tell everybody that's beating me up online,
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Speaker 2: number one, don't care, but number two, I don't have
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Speaker 2: a dog in this fight. I care about one thing,
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Speaker 2: a tree verdict. The case laid out by the state,
9:54
Speaker 2: in my mind, is overwhelming, but I also believe the
9:58
Speaker 2: defense is making man ajor headway. And what they're doing
10:03
Speaker 2: with all the cross examination and all of the points
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Speaker 2: they are making, I think it's very, very compelling. I
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Speaker 2: want to know the truth just like everybody else. I
10:12
Speaker 2: want the right person to go to jail for life.
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Speaker 2: That said, Tim Janssen, you're right about these problems in
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Speaker 2: some of the state's evidence. I want you to go
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Speaker 2: through it one more time, and I'm going to clear
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Speaker 2: up one thing. It's my understanding, and everybody on the panel,
10:31
Speaker 2: for Pete's sake, jump in. Okay, we're not giving a
10:35
Speaker 2: speech at Harvard Law graduation you can break in, especially
10:40
Speaker 2: about that Google search that was conducted. Now you do
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Speaker 2: know that witness says the Google search was at the
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Speaker 2: best of read. But continue take it from the top,
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Speaker 2: Tim Jansen.
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Speaker 7: All right, So the injuries in order for a shoe
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Speaker 7: to come off a person when they're hit by a car,
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Speaker 7: you see, has to be a high level speed, usually
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Speaker 7: fifty miles per hour or more.
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Speaker 2: The car was only going twenty.
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Speaker 7: Four miles per hour when she backed up, according to
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Speaker 7: the black box of the car. Now, those injuries are inconsistent.
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Speaker 7: Where did that dog bite come from? And I suggest
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Speaker 7: to you that the rear tail light that was not
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Speaker 7: found until after it was in the custody of the police,
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Speaker 7: and then it was found later, not that night. Later,
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Speaker 7: so it opens up an argument that that might have
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Speaker 7: been planted, like the Mark Furman globe was planted.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let's just follow what you're saying. And I love
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Speaker 2: how defense attorneys will just throw something out. Let's follow
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Speaker 2: it through to its natural and logical conclusion. You're saying
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Speaker 2: the tail light wasn't found that night in the dark,
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Speaker 2: in the snow. Okay, understandable. It was found later and
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Speaker 2: it was in police custody. So the conclusion, the logical
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Speaker 2: conclusion to what you're saying, is that the police used
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Speaker 2: that till like this till white pieces to frame Karen Reid.
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Speaker 2: That they all got together and they framed Karen Reid.
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Speaker 2: Is that believable? Is that what you're saying.
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Speaker 7: What I'm saying is there's a possibility that the people
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Speaker 7: in the house who are law enforcement people may have
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Speaker 7: moved evidence, changed evidence. We know the McKay bled about
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Speaker 7: the Google search, right, we know about the dog. They
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Speaker 7: got rid of the dog after this incident, and it
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Speaker 7: looked like a bitite mark on the victim's block.
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Speaker 2: I guess they did. And you mentioning the sale of
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Speaker 2: the home.
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Speaker 7: They sold a house to fifty thousand, and they cleaned
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Speaker 7: the floor up downstairs. They removed the whole flooring.
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Speaker 2: Question to you, Lauren Colin, what's happening at the courthouse
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Speaker 2: right now?
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Speaker 5: So while you guys were talking Karen Reid, Alan Jackson
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Speaker 5: and David Yanninet Yanetti just walked by. Everybody was cheering
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Speaker 5: and shouting three Karen Reid, Nancy, if you don't mind,
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Speaker 5: I just want to clarify about the tail light and
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Speaker 5: why that sem to be so contentious. So the crime
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Speaker 5: scene at thirty four A Fairview, it was never ever
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Speaker 5: closed off. Civilians were walking around, pulling up on the
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Speaker 5: driveway by eight am. And the whole thing is the
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Speaker 5: tail light pieces were not found until after Trooper Proctor
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Speaker 5: and Buchanic showed up at Karen Reid's parents' house in Dighton,
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Speaker 5: toled the car to the sally Port. While it was
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Speaker 5: at the sally Port about I want to say it
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Speaker 5: took about maybe forty five minutes to get back the
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Speaker 5: certain team back to thirty four A Fairview and.
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Speaker 6: That's when they pulled the pieces of the.
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Speaker 5: Tail light out and the shoe and there's tons of
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Speaker 5: snow on the ground, and I think that is where
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Speaker 5: people were like, well, wait a minute.
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Speaker 6: They didn't pull the tailight out until after Trooper Proctor
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Speaker 6: got a hold of the vehicle.
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Speaker 5: And then the other thing is that Officer Nick Barrows
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Speaker 5: of the Dyton Police, who has no connection whatsoever, testified
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Speaker 5: a few days ago that when he saw the tail
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Speaker 5: at Karen Reid's parents' house, it was only cracked, not shattered.
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Speaker 5: Cracked at a small piece was missing.
14:07
Speaker 4: Jennifer McCabe calls John O'Keeffe shortly after leaving the bar
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Speaker 4: with directions to her brother in law, Brian Albert's home.
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Speaker 4: At twelve fifteen am, McCabe and several other party goers
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Speaker 4: see Reid's black suv parked outside. When the couple has
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Speaker 4: not come in fifteen minutes later, McCabe text then calls
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Speaker 4: John o'keeff to confirm they arrived. McCabe texts four more
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Speaker 4: times after the call, but O'Keefe doesn't respond. McCabe assumes
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Speaker 4: the couple decided to skip the party. Between one thirty
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Speaker 4: am and two am, after party attendees clear out of
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Speaker 4: the Albert's home.
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Speaker 2: Wow okay more.
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Speaker 8: On the way to Brian Albert's after party, Karen Reid
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Speaker 8: and John O'Keeffe are locked in an intense argument. The
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Speaker 8: couple sits in reads car outside the alberts home fighting
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Speaker 8: and they decide to part ways for the evening. Karen
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Speaker 8: Reid lets John o'keeff out of the car and heads
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Speaker 8: back to their house, expecting her boyfriend to find.
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Speaker 2: His own way home.
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Speaker 8: At one am, Reid leaves O'Keeffe a voicemail before she
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Speaker 8: goes to bed. In the message, read tells O'Keefe, he's
15:01
Speaker 8: a fucking loser and quote, I hate you John Wow.
15:06
Speaker 2: Okay. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, a high profile SOCO
15:10
Speaker 2: analyst joining us from LA, author of deal Breaker, went
15:14
Speaker 2: to work on a relationship and went to walk away,
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Speaker 2: very important for today's analysis. You can find her at
15:21
Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany with their volatile history,
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Speaker 2: their argument just before he's killed. Of course they're looking
15:31
Speaker 2: at her, of course, Nancy.
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Speaker 9: And as you know, and I know, over fifty percent
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Speaker 9: of all domestic violence occurs after one or more members
15:40
Speaker 9: of the couple have been drinking, and in this case,
15:43
Speaker 9: both of them were drinking, and alcohol makes people extremely disregulated.
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Speaker 9: They lose perpet perspective, they get paranoid, they begin to
15:52
Speaker 9: develop very intense hatred towards their partners. And Karen Reid
15:57
Speaker 9: may be suffering from something called borderline person disorder. And
16:01
Speaker 9: what we see with borderline is that there are fractured relationships,
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Speaker 9: explosive outbursts, impulsivity. And if she was really angry at
16:12
Speaker 9: him and she was drunk, I can see her stepping
16:16
Speaker 9: on the gas pedal, I can see her throwing it
16:19
Speaker 9: in reverse and this idea about the sister in law
16:22
Speaker 9: looking up hypothermia. Nancy, you know, because you're a prosecutor,
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Speaker 9: how calmon it is for people who commit a crime
16:30
Speaker 9: to start frantically calling all their family members and then
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Speaker 9: the family members start to concoct this big lie to
16:36
Speaker 9: cover up for the crime. They panic instead of thinking. So,
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Speaker 9: I think the right wing the big conspiracy is actually
16:43
Speaker 9: amongst Karen Read's friends, not amongst the police. And in
16:48
Speaker 9: terms of the jury, Nancy, you know that when people
16:51
Speaker 9: become paranoid and believe in conspiracies, any evidence to the
16:55
Speaker 9: contrary of what they've already made up their mind about
16:58
Speaker 9: just solidifies their own bas So I think it's a
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Speaker 9: losing case from that perspective. If the jury thinks, you know,
17:05
Speaker 9: that there's this conspiracy, they're not going to listen to
17:07
Speaker 9: the evidence. It's all going to just you know, calcify
17:10
Speaker 9: and reinforce what they already think about the case.
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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum joining me, Cold Case Foundation founder and forensic expert, Cheryl,
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Speaker 2: I want you to take a listen to this.
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Speaker 4: Just before five am, Karen Reid wakes up and quickly
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Speaker 4: realizes his boyfriend John O'Keeffe isn't in their home or
17:29
Speaker 4: answering his phone. Read wakes O'Keefe's niece and ask her
17:32
Speaker 4: to call him while she contacts people they were with
17:34
Speaker 4: last night. Reid paces down a hallway while she speaks
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Speaker 4: with Jennifer McCabe and O'Keefe's friend Harry Roberts. O'Keefe's niece
17:41
Speaker 4: over hears Reid ask what if I did something? What
17:44
Speaker 4: if a snowplow hit him? Read tells Roberts, I don't
17:47
Speaker 4: remember anything from last night. We drank so much. I
17:50
Speaker 4: don't remember anything, you know.
17:51
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum guys, founder of the Cold Case Research Institute
17:56
Speaker 2: and stars seven podcasts. Cheryl think I've detailed several times
18:01
Speaker 2: for you. An evening when my husband David had to
18:05
Speaker 2: go out of town for work, and he always texts
18:08
Speaker 2: me when he lands, when he goes to supper, when
18:11
Speaker 2: he leaves supper, and before he goes to bed. He
18:13
Speaker 2: didn't text. He didn't text after he landed, and that's uncharacteristic.
18:18
Speaker 2: I was up till three am, calling hospitals. I'm ade
18:23
Speaker 2: d who you know? My colleague helped me. We were
18:26
Speaker 2: both up till three in the morning, trying to make
18:29
Speaker 2: sure David Lynch and I had a heart attack or
18:31
Speaker 2: got wopped on the head. I never said the words
18:35
Speaker 2: what if I did something?
18:36
Speaker 10: Correct, Nancy, there is so much with this case. If
18:41
Speaker 10: you follow her actions, her wording when she decided to
18:46
Speaker 10: go back to look for him where she pointed out,
18:50
Speaker 10: you know exactly where she dropped him all the last
18:54
Speaker 10: time she saw him.
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Speaker 6: That's bad. But here's the other thing.
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Speaker 10: Every single time this case tells you to go right,
19:02
Speaker 10: it forces you to look left as well.
19:12
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
19:17
Speaker 11: Friends gather at a Massachusetts bar on a Friday night
19:21
Speaker 11: as a heavy winter storm rips through the town of Canton.
19:24
Speaker 11: John O'Keeffe and his girlfriend Karen Reid agree to meet
19:28
Speaker 11: friends back at their house on thirty four Fairview Road,
19:31
Speaker 11: but they never arrive. Friends inside claim to see a
19:35
Speaker 11: black SUV pull up to the driveway, but neither O'Keeffe
19:39
Speaker 11: or red join the party inside.
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Speaker 2: Okay, by to Cheryl McCollum joining us, Cheryl, I want
19:44
Speaker 2: you to also hear what else has been testified to that,
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Speaker 2: Karen Reid said. Listen.
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Speaker 8: At five o seven am, Karen Reid backs out of
19:55
Speaker 8: John O'Keeffe's driveway in her SUV and hits his car
19:58
Speaker 8: in her haste to look for her missing boyfriend. Reid
20:01
Speaker 8: doesn't stop and meets Carrie Roberts and Jennifer McKay at
20:04
Speaker 8: mckabe's home. Roberts gets behind the wheel of Reed's SUV
20:08
Speaker 8: and drives to Brian Albert's home, where they partied the
20:11
Speaker 8: night before. On the way, Reid mentions her tail light
20:14
Speaker 8: as busted and voices concerned she may have hit O'Keefe.
20:17
Speaker 8: As the women drive down Fairview Road, read spots Jona
20:21
Speaker 8: O'Keeffe's body lying crumpled in the snow outside Albert's home.
20:25
Speaker 2: Listen, I want to believe everybody's innocent, as does the Constitution.
20:31
Speaker 2: But how why would you say? What if I did
20:35
Speaker 2: something I can't remember? Like I was telling you earlier,
20:38
Speaker 2: I didn't say that the night I couldn't find David.
20:40
Speaker 2: What if I did something? I assumed he had a
20:43
Speaker 2: car accent or some other horrible event had occurred. And
20:47
Speaker 2: now she says or tail light is busted and she
20:52
Speaker 2: knows where to find his body.
20:54
Speaker 6: That's bad, Nancy, the whole thing is bad.
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Speaker 10: Hit the car in the driveway, as of right now, No,
21:00
Speaker 10: we don't know how the man died. And again I've
21:04
Speaker 10: said it's like Casey Anthony. Everybody had a theory that
21:08
Speaker 10: the baby drowned, the baby got the mama's drugs, whatever.
21:11
Speaker 6: Right now, we do not.
21:12
Speaker 10: Know how John o'keeith was killed.
21:15
Speaker 2: We don't know.
21:16
Speaker 10: You've got an officer that is the lead detective that
21:20
Speaker 10: did not go to the crumb. He's got an avoid
21:23
Speaker 10: of time on the phone when he told her car
21:25
Speaker 10: he is seen at the back tail light. You've got
21:28
Speaker 10: injuries to his arm that it doesn't line up to
21:31
Speaker 10: me with one tail light. Also, the other injuries you
21:34
Speaker 10: know of the car. Are his ribs busted? Is his
21:38
Speaker 10: abdomen bruised? Are his legs you know, filled with road rash? No,
21:44
Speaker 10: a lot of this is not making sense to him.
21:46
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Cheryl, None of that is that does
21:49
Speaker 2: not necessarily apply, because why would he have road rash
21:53
Speaker 2: when you're dragged along asphalt. Because he wasn't dragged along asphalt.
21:58
Speaker 2: According to the State, he was hit when Karen Reid
22:01
Speaker 2: was backing up and he fell and he died of hypothermia.
22:06
Speaker 2: So road rash has no place in this analysis. However,
22:11
Speaker 2: the other injuries to his body. Joining me, Doctor Kendall
22:15
Speaker 2: Crown's chief medical Examiner, Terran County. That's Fort Worth, lecturer
22:20
Speaker 2: at Burnett's School of Medicine at TCU, DTR Crowns, thank
22:24
Speaker 2: you for being with us. I've got a question to
22:26
Speaker 2: you about those apparently bite marks. I don't know what
22:30
Speaker 2: they are, but they are purported to be bite marks,
22:33
Speaker 2: doctor Crowns. When you are bitten, Let's just pretend he
22:37
Speaker 2: was bitten. Let's go with that. Can you, a doctor
22:41
Speaker 2: look at the injury on the arm and determine how
22:45
Speaker 2: long it has been healing. In other words, did those
22:50
Speaker 2: bite marks occur that night or were they from an
22:54
Speaker 2: earlier incident? And if they did occur that night, in
22:59
Speaker 2: what scenario? We know nothing about him being exposed to
23:02
Speaker 2: the dog that not. But that aside. Can you look
23:06
Speaker 2: at injuries such as these determine the time they occurred.
23:12
Speaker 12: So you can look at injuries and you can note
23:15
Speaker 12: whether there's healing occurring, like scab formation. Also, you want
23:20
Speaker 12: to look for hemorrhage because they could be post mortem.
23:23
Speaker 12: So if you have no blood associated with the wounds
23:26
Speaker 12: or no vital tissue reaction, then you're kind of dealing
23:29
Speaker 12: with wounds that occurred after death. But if you look
23:32
Speaker 12: at them and they're fresh, there's no scab formation. They
23:35
Speaker 12: probably occurred at or around the time the individual died.
23:39
Speaker 12: And looking at those wounds on the forearms with the
23:42
Speaker 12: paired kind of abrasion marks that you're seeing, especially on
23:48
Speaker 12: the one forearm picture, those are very interesting to me
23:51
Speaker 12: because they do look like those paired wounds from canines,
23:54
Speaker 12: but they are talking about a German shepherd, so usually
23:57
Speaker 12: German shepherds have a really good bite grip and they'll
24:00
Speaker 12: they'll dig in and they'll tear chunks out. So those wounds,
24:04
Speaker 12: if they are from a dog, they're very superficial. And
24:07
Speaker 12: they also some of the wounds are the way that
24:10
Speaker 12: the canines would be paired. Some are closer than others,
24:13
Speaker 12: so it doesn't doesn't quite fit with it being the
24:16
Speaker 12: same dog. If they are indep bite marks.
24:19
Speaker 2: Wow, Doctor Kendel Crowns, it's amazing the way you analyze that.
24:24
Speaker 2: Would you agree that they look like dog bites or
24:28
Speaker 2: do you disagree?
24:29
Speaker 12: So in the pictures that I've been able to see,
24:31
Speaker 12: the canines are the ones that usually cause those paired
24:36
Speaker 12: scratch marks, and then usually the incisors are between those
24:41
Speaker 12: two canines, so you'll get the paired bite marks, but
24:44
Speaker 12: with the centralized incisors in between them scratching along. So
24:48
Speaker 12: when you have those kind of superficial scratches from the canines,
24:52
Speaker 12: you also get the in between the canines, you'll get
24:56
Speaker 12: the incisors scratching as well. So look at those. They
25:01
Speaker 12: do look like paired, parallel in sized or abrasions, but
25:06
Speaker 12: then there is no incis or wounds between the canine wounds,
25:11
Speaker 12: so they they're interesting. They have the appearance of dog bites,
25:15
Speaker 12: but I don't think they are because they're plus, you've
25:19
Speaker 12: got differences in the pairings as well. You have some
25:23
Speaker 12: that are wide, some that are close. So it's it's odd.
25:26
Speaker 12: It doesn't look like a dog per se to me.
25:29
Speaker 2: Now that you're saying all that, I understand by looking
25:32
Speaker 2: at these photos, I didn't know what to make of it.
25:34
Speaker 2: I didn't have a trained eye looking at it. I
25:37
Speaker 2: hear you. We keep hearing Cheryl McCollum stating that we
25:42
Speaker 2: don't know cause of death. We don't know cause of death.
25:44
Speaker 2: We do no cause of death. Blunt force trauma and
25:48
Speaker 2: hypothermia we do no cause of death. So I don't
25:52
Speaker 2: know why you're saying that, But I do want to
25:55
Speaker 2: address the dog bites, the alleged dog bites. From what
25:59
Speaker 2: I'm here from our expert, doctor Keil Crowns, they may
26:02
Speaker 2: or may not be dog bites. Some evidence suggests they are,
26:05
Speaker 2: some evidence suggests they're not. However, I don't have a time,
26:10
Speaker 2: and those are not the cause of death. Did the
26:13
Speaker 2: dog bites, the alleged but dog bites, Did they happen
26:16
Speaker 2: the day before? Did they happen two days before? Did
26:19
Speaker 2: they happen day of? What about that, Cheryl?
26:22
Speaker 6: Well, here's what I noticed.
26:23
Speaker 10: There are patterns, and they're going in somewhat different directions.
26:27
Speaker 10: They are spaced out very odd. They're different sizes, they're
26:31
Speaker 10: different wits, they're different links. That's like a magical tail light.
26:35
Speaker 10: If they're trying to tell me that's what happened here,
26:37
Speaker 10: that doesn't make any sense. And what I mean by
26:40
Speaker 10: we don't know how he died, I mean the injury
26:44
Speaker 10: to the back of his head. Where did that come from?
26:46
Speaker 10: They have it told us hit? Where did you know
26:49
Speaker 10: he get from outside the vehicle into the snow. We
26:54
Speaker 10: don't know how that happened. Did it happen because he
26:56
Speaker 10: was it by a car, Did it happen because he
26:58
Speaker 10: was it with the you know machine that moves the snow,
27:01
Speaker 10: or did somebody toss him there?
27:03
Speaker 6: We don't know.
27:05
Speaker 10: We know that most of the time is somebody's hit
27:07
Speaker 10: going twenty four miles an hour, they don't come out
27:09
Speaker 10: of their shoes. We know that when first sawing, they said, well,
27:12
Speaker 10: it looks like you got beat up. I mean, we
27:16
Speaker 10: have not heard any evidence of this is the injuries
27:20
Speaker 10: that line up with the vehicle. This is how the
27:22
Speaker 10: injury to the back of his head occurred. We don't
27:25
Speaker 10: know that yet. We hadn't heard it.
27:28
Speaker 11: An urgent search ensues, but Officer O'Keefe is shortly found
27:33
Speaker 11: dead in the freezing snow. Girlfriend Karen Reid has heard
27:37
Speaker 11: saying I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.
27:42
Speaker 2: Is that true? Did she say I hit him? I
27:45
Speaker 2: hit him, I hit him? Okay, joining me in all
27:49
Speaker 2: star panel, but straight back out to Tim Jansen, criminal
27:54
Speaker 2: defense attorney, former federal prosecutor. There are multiple reports of
27:59
Speaker 2: her so I hit him. There are reports from O'Keefe's niece.
28:04
Speaker 2: Must consider the source. Did I do something what if
28:08
Speaker 2: I did something I can't remember. We keep getting from
28:13
Speaker 2: different sources that Karen Reid intimated she hit O'Keefe. Now,
28:19
Speaker 2: if it was just one source, I could discredit it.
28:23
Speaker 2: But if it's from multiple sources that are separate in
28:25
Speaker 2: time and space and I connected to each other, then
28:28
Speaker 2: it's hard to discount Karen Reids saying I hit him.
28:31
Speaker 2: What if I hit him and taking the going directly
28:36
Speaker 2: to where his body is, knowing where his body is,
28:39
Speaker 2: that's bad, Nancy.
28:40
Speaker 7: I have a theory that fits all the evidence in
28:43
Speaker 7: this case. Brian Higgins was flirtatious with Karen Reid, sending
28:47
Speaker 7: text messages her boyfriend, and Karen Reid found.
28:52
Speaker 2: Out about it.
28:53
Speaker 7: They had a bad argument about it. They were arguing
28:55
Speaker 7: about the text messages to Brian Higgins. Brian Higgins is
28:59
Speaker 7: a huge man, bigger than Proctor Brian Reid. O'keef gets
29:05
Speaker 7: dropped off. He decides he's going to confront Brian Higgins
29:09
Speaker 7: in the house. While he's in the house, there's a
29:12
Speaker 7: fight ensues. He punches and knocks out o'keef. He goes
29:17
Speaker 7: down and the dog attacks him, and while he's attacked
29:20
Speaker 7: down there Reed is already gone. The body is carried
29:24
Speaker 7: out to this location. Is how one shoe probably came off.
29:28
Speaker 7: That's how that fits the whole scenario of the fight,
29:31
Speaker 7: the injuries.
29:32
Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl, that's a great story that he just told.
29:36
Speaker 2: But where is it coming from. I mean, I could argue, Hey,
29:40
Speaker 2: I think I know what happened. A little green man
29:42
Speaker 2: from Mars zoomed in. He clunked o'keef in the head
29:46
Speaker 2: and threw him in the snow, and then he bit
29:47
Speaker 2: him in the arm and then went back to Mars. Yeah,
29:51
Speaker 2: is it possible, I guess Is it probable?
29:54
Speaker 13: No?
29:55
Speaker 2: Do I have any shred until of evidence to support that?
29:59
Speaker 9: No?
29:59
Speaker 2: But it's it's a theory. So all of these theories
30:03
Speaker 2: I'm ount to nothing. I can't go to trial with
30:07
Speaker 2: a theory. I've got to have evidence. Remember that evidence.
30:12
Speaker 10: Well, let's talk about the evidence, how it was collected,
30:15
Speaker 10: when it was collected, and by who. You're talking about
30:18
Speaker 10: somebody that found the head light or the telllight that
30:22
Speaker 10: we know light on the sand light under oath about
30:26
Speaker 10: knowing the abots. You've got somebody that did not go
30:29
Speaker 10: to the crime scene but then suddenly finds the biggest
30:32
Speaker 10: piece of evidence that supposedly came from there. It is
30:36
Speaker 10: the most poorly worked criminal investigation that I've seen of
30:42
Speaker 10: a death of a police officer. You've got police in
30:46
Speaker 10: the home that knew this man that never came outside. Well,
30:50
Speaker 10: that don't look good. You've got a police officer that
30:52
Speaker 10: knows these people that weren't this case and made a
30:55
Speaker 10: decision in sixteen hours without going to the crime scene,
30:59
Speaker 10: without interview any more than people.
31:01
Speaker 2: Okay, I've got a problem with the lead investigator not
31:03
Speaker 2: going to the crime scene, A big problem. Joining me
31:08
Speaker 2: now outside the courthouse. I think we've got Lauren Collin up. Lauren.
31:11
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out all the times that Karen
31:15
Speaker 2: Reid intimated she hit John O'Keefe. And again, I don't
31:19
Speaker 2: have a dog in the fight. I want the truth.
31:22
Speaker 2: I don't care if she did it or didn't do it.
31:25
Speaker 2: I want the right person to go to jail. I
31:28
Speaker 2: don't know her. I wouldn't know her if she'd bit
31:30
Speaker 2: me in the neck. But that said she, according to
31:34
Speaker 2: multiple witnesses, stated I hit him. I hit him. What
31:38
Speaker 2: if I did something? Can all of those statements be discounted?
31:43
Speaker 6: Yes, Nancy.
31:44
Speaker 5: While the defense is explaining as she simply asked a
31:47
Speaker 5: question over and over. And I want to point out
31:50
Speaker 5: that during Jennifer McCabe's grand jury testimony, she spoke of
31:55
Speaker 5: Karen Reid asking the question, could I have hit him
31:58
Speaker 5: over eleven times and not why? And did Jennifer McCabe
32:01
Speaker 5: state in the grand jury testimony Karen Reid stated officially.
32:05
Speaker 6: I hit him. I hit him. I hit him.
32:07
Speaker 5: So I think that is where a lot of people
32:09
Speaker 5: are confused.
32:18
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
32:23
Speaker 2: Too, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychologists joining us
32:27
Speaker 2: out of la Doctor Bethany again, when I couldn't find
32:32
Speaker 2: David the night he was out of town, I never
32:34
Speaker 2: said what if I killed him? What if? That thought
32:39
Speaker 2: never occurred to me to say that, right, So, whether
32:43
Speaker 2: she said what if I did it? What if I
32:46
Speaker 2: hit him? How did she even know he was hit?
32:49
Speaker 2: How did she know? How did she know he didn't
32:51
Speaker 2: wasn't in a car accident, or didn't die of alcohol poisoning.
32:55
Speaker 2: How did she even know he was dead? How did
32:57
Speaker 2: she know he was hurt? Why did she keeps saying
33:00
Speaker 2: what if I hit him? To me, that means I
33:04
Speaker 2: hit him.
33:04
Speaker 9: It's like OJ Simpson writing the book If I Did
33:07
Speaker 9: It Right, It has similar overtone. Nancy, we have to
33:11
Speaker 9: recognize that the brawl, the fight that went on between
33:14
Speaker 9: the two of them, probably went on for hours, maybe
33:17
Speaker 9: even days. There was a lot of alcohol involved, and
33:20
Speaker 9: so there will be a lot of unexplained injuries because
33:23
Speaker 9: that's probably not the only place that they had an altercation. Right,
33:27
Speaker 9: they may have been fighting at the home before they
33:29
Speaker 9: even got to the bar. Secondly, when she says what
33:34
Speaker 9: if I hit him? What if I hit him, she
33:36
Speaker 9: probably was extremely inebriated at that point, so she wasn't
33:41
Speaker 9: safeguarding what she was saying to other people. But as
33:44
Speaker 9: she starts to sober up, as her blood alcohol level drops,
33:49
Speaker 9: now she says that she can't remember what happens. So
33:53
Speaker 9: she's beginning to linger amnesia. That's very, very common for
33:58
Speaker 9: criminals to say, well, I can't remember what happens, so
34:01
Speaker 9: they're kind of trying to come up with a medical
34:03
Speaker 9: diagnosis of amnesia in order to cover their tracks. So
34:07
Speaker 9: let's think about the blood alcohol level dropping as her
34:10
Speaker 9: exclamation exclamation starts to change.
34:13
Speaker 2: Well, there is more hard evidence.
34:16
Speaker 4: Listen data from Karen Reid's SUV shows the vehicle outside
34:20
Speaker 4: Brian Albert's home until about twelve forty five am. While
34:23
Speaker 4: outside the home, the vehicle data indicates that the Lexus
34:26
Speaker 4: travels backward for sixty feet at twenty four miles per hour.
34:29
Speaker 4: The SUV's tail light is broken and pieces of the
34:32
Speaker 4: light are found outside Brian albert home. Testing shows O'Keefe's
34:35
Speaker 4: hair is found on the bumper of Reed's Lexus and
34:38
Speaker 4: his DNA is found on the tail light. Investigators find
34:41
Speaker 4: remnants of a cocktail in bits of a broken drinking
34:44
Speaker 4: glass on the SUV's bumper.
34:45
Speaker 2: Hold everything, Lauren Conlin, DNA leads, you can't fight with DNA.
34:51
Speaker 2: He didn't tell me his DNA is on the tail
34:54
Speaker 2: light and his hair is on her car bumper. So
34:59
Speaker 2: to further or the big police conspiracy, I would have
35:02
Speaker 2: to believe police actually got one of John O'Keefe's hairs
35:06
Speaker 2: and put it on her car bumper and somehow got
35:09
Speaker 2: his DNA on her tail light.
35:12
Speaker 6: Really, the hair test it has not come back.
35:14
Speaker 5: Additionally, there was actually no blood found on the tail
35:18
Speaker 5: light either.
35:18
Speaker 6: So I want to also point out this hair that
35:22
Speaker 6: was found on the car.
35:24
Speaker 5: That car traveled thirty miles from Canton to Dighton and
35:28
Speaker 5: then and then back.
35:28
Speaker 1: The Cantons theories are not evidence.
35:31
Speaker 13: The idea of the multiple Police Department, EMT's fire personnel,
35:36
Speaker 13: the medical examiner, and prosecuting agencies adjoining on taking it
35:40
Speaker 13: by a vast conspiracy should be seen for what it is,
35:44
Speaker 13: completely contrary to the evidence and a desperate attempt to
35:48
Speaker 13: reassign guilt.
35:49
Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns, I'm trying to determine the truth, just
35:52
Speaker 2: like everybody else's. If his DNA is on her bumper,
35:58
Speaker 2: be it his hair, his blood ud To believe there
36:01
Speaker 2: was a cover up, someone would have had to have
36:05
Speaker 2: gotten O'Keefe's DNA and put it on her bumper. That
36:12
Speaker 2: is a heck of a cover up. How could that
36:14
Speaker 2: even be done, Doctor Kendall Crowns. The same thing was
36:20
Speaker 2: argued in OJ Simpson. How could it have been done
36:24
Speaker 2: to get.
36:24
Speaker 12: His hair or his blood or DNA samples onto the
36:29
Speaker 12: broken tail light onto the bumper of the car without
36:33
Speaker 12: it having been from him being hit by the car.
36:36
Speaker 12: It would have to have been taken. It'd be a
36:39
Speaker 12: multi factorial cover up involving multiple individuals. They would have
36:44
Speaker 12: to get samples from the medical examiner or a crime
36:47
Speaker 12: scene personnel that they would then take and smear onto
36:51
Speaker 12: the bumper and onto the tail light. It would be
36:55
Speaker 12: multiple individuals working together, coordinated to be able to pull
36:59
Speaker 12: that off. When it appears to me like you got
37:02
Speaker 12: hit by a car and then just got run over
37:04
Speaker 12: it by.
37:05
Speaker 2: Guys, what are the arguments on both sides? Listen?
37:09
Speaker 8: The prosecution asserts that after an intense argument, a drunken
37:13
Speaker 8: Karen Reid intentionally reversed into her boyfriend John O'Keeffe and
37:17
Speaker 8: left him in the snow to die outside Brian Albert's home.
37:21
Speaker 8: Reid's defense says Reid dropped O'Keefe off at a party
37:24
Speaker 8: with three people in attendants who had motives, opportunity, and
37:27
Speaker 8: means to attack John Keith. The defense attributes O'Keefe's injuries
37:31
Speaker 8: to a beating and bites from the Alberts aggressive German shepherd.
37:35
Speaker 2: They say that any.
37:36
Speaker 8: Evidence suggesting otherwise is part of a cover up orchestrated
37:40
Speaker 8: by the many law enforcement officials present that night.
37:43
Speaker 2: Much has been made by crime sleuth regarding the so
37:47
Speaker 2: called mirror image of Karen Reid's car. Many claims that
37:55
Speaker 2: video has been edited. Listen.
37:58
Speaker 4: Video of Karen Reads lex from inside the Cannon Police
38:01
Speaker 4: station garage is shown in court, but it has an anomaly.
38:04
Speaker 4: The video is inverted a mirror image, making the driver's
38:08
Speaker 4: side appear to be the passenger side on the video. However,
38:11
Speaker 4: the time stamp on the video is not a mirror image.
38:14
Speaker 4: Defense attorney Alan Jackson claims this is proof police manipulated
38:18
Speaker 4: the video to help their case. Police say the vehicle
38:21
Speaker 4: is never touched after being brought into the garage, but
38:23
Speaker 4: the defense claims the mirror video is proof the police
38:27
Speaker 4: can't be believed.
38:27
Speaker 2: Lauren Colin, what is the argument about it? So called
38:31
Speaker 2: mirror image on the lexus Karen Read's lexus?
38:35
Speaker 5: Because I wasn't super concerned with the fact that it
38:38
Speaker 5: was inverted.
38:39
Speaker 6: I was more concerned with.
38:40
Speaker 5: The fact that it was not addressed by the prosecution.
38:43
Speaker 5: And then Alan Jackson had to ask Officer Buchanik, Hey,
38:47
Speaker 5: why is this video skipping? Why does it appear to
38:49
Speaker 5: be inverted? And he said, oh, oh, it's just motion censored.
38:53
Speaker 5: That's why times are missing, That's why it did that.
38:56
Speaker 5: And to me that just looked a little odd. Why
38:59
Speaker 5: not address that?
38:59
Speaker 3: Right.
39:00
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm trying to determine if there actually is
39:04
Speaker 2: any evidence that a mirror image had been edited. But
39:08
Speaker 2: what I'm hearing is no. I imagine the defense will
39:13
Speaker 2: argue that and bring on evidence regarding that in their case.
39:18
Speaker 2: Right now, the trial rages on in a court of law,
39:24
Speaker 2: and we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off,
39:29
Speaker 2: goodbye friend,