Latest / Brilliant Minds? / We got fired? ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY!

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We got fired? ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY! · Brilliant Minds?

• Olivia: This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Olivia & Andrea: back everyone to Brilliant Minds. Hello. ⁓ Andre is visiting me and we are doing our first podcast in person together, which is like really exciting. Yeah, yeah. We definitely had to makeshift some things in here. so this this recording's a little bit ⁓ different off than the usual pristine level of quality. Yeah. Then you know why. ⁓ Yeah. you won't get those weird like pauses because Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. Olivia & Andrea: Of like virtualness, because now we're in person. Now we can just like I don't know, like in person vibe off of each other. So yeah, because we normally don't vibe at all. Not at all. Yeah. You are in for an extra treat. Yeah, for real. today we are, although it's technically a little early when we're recording this, but when it comes out, we will be celebrating our like one year anniversary of being in business together. Woo woo! Which doesn't mean it! ⁓ don't know about you, but that first year flew by. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, like it still doesn't feel like it's a year. Yeah. I feel like the first six months like didn't count. No. No. I mean they kinda didn't. But real. They ⁓ didn't. But they did. I mean, we got clients like right away. Like we had clients the next week that we were able to kind of launch and Yeah. Do our thing. Yeah. I yeah, I will say too, like we had a little bit of a gradual build, so I don't feel like it was like all at once, but we I feel also generally like we've been incredibly fortunate. Like we haven't really had to do a lot of marketing. No. ⁓ like I privilege-wise is probably the greatest privilege a therapist could have. ⁓ yeah. Market themselves. Yeah. hate marketing myself. It's really hard and like we don't get taught how to do it in school, like like logistics wise. Right. And then we don't really that's not why we're here, right? Like yeah. Yeah. it and it feels kind of yeah, we've talked about this on the podcast before. Like it feels disingenuous or weird and it like doesn't feel natural. And yeah. So we've really we've been extremely fortunate that we really haven't had to market. Yeah. It's been awesome. Yeah. And whenever we've been like, ⁓ man, we really love some more like clients or like some Somewhere like supervisees who just like magically always. Yeah, they just like pop into our inbox. Yeah, literally. It's like it's like the therapy gods are blessing us all the time. Yeah. Which is like, yeah, I feel like that's a really high privilege that we have. And ⁓ don't I don't think I kev could ever imagine being to be that therapist before being here. Like because I think I was always at out of group or community mental health, and they were just like, here's your clients. And now actually getting to see that like what I'm putting out there, what you're putting out there is bringing people in is wild. Yeah, that's so cool. Because we we have gotten a lot of compliments on our website. I'd be like, ⁓ I like really love this or this and I like really connected with it or like ⁓ I love that logo or whatever. So ⁓ think one the things that I realized recently that I get hung up on that ear good about like pushing me past is I'm always like wanting to have things Like perfect or set before we start something, or like having just like as much set about a thing as possible, which is like not that is not a realistic goal when you're launching a business, right? and I think that's something I've learned along the way is like don't don't wait until you think you have it perfect, like if you have somewhat of a plan, try it, and then if it doesn't work, that's fine, and just like regroup and try again. ⁓ But I I'm really glad that you pushed me in the That way because I think I'd have a really hard time like launching. Yeah. Because I'd be Well, I want to have it all figured out. I want it all to be perfect. And you're like, No. We'll just change it later if it doesn't work. And I'm like Exactly. Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, then like we're gonna change it later anyways, right? Like a lot of what we're doing and what we're creating, which like maybe we can talk a little about that at some point, like what we're creating and the company that we're building because of what we're gonna talk about today. Yes. But first, what do you love about me? Everything. the salmon bowls you made for dinner tonight. the fact you just had sprinkles in your pantry. bring me so joy. I have an obscene amount of sprinkles in pantry. ⁓ No no ⁓ all seriousness like you know how I push you with the creative side and like ⁓ not necessarily like flexibility, but like that. Yeah, it's flexibility. It's okay, you can say it. You push me on the structure side. Right? And it's like I need that. And I think that's where our neurodivergences are opposite in a lot of ways too. Yeah. And work ⁓ well together. ⁓ I think that's why my husband and I fit really well together, because he's very like logical and like structured. ⁓ I need that in my life. Like ⁓ am a creative person. I will just like Flail. Go do it until it works. Yeah. Yeah. So we've been I think that's why we've grown so well is because you have that structure piece, I have that like flexibility creative piece and we just kind of like flow with that together. Yeah. Yeah, I think we make a really good fit. I mean I Yeah. I mean we've known this for a long time. Well no, I know, but like it's so funny because, you know, we talked about like we never imagined ourselves in private practice and then here we are both in private practice but we're doing it together. They're like I would also would have never imagined I would have had a business partner. Yeah, no, me neither. And what's funny is like thinking back on our old job, there were multiple people that told me, I don't know if they ever told you, like a ton. Yeah, when are you and Olivia leaving? And it wasn't the same people every s single time. It was like different people constantly that were like, You and Andrea need to go like build your own business. Like you guys are doing something. Yeah. And we were like, No, it's like too hard, too. hard and here we are like crushing Olivia figured out how much we were like pulling in financially a month which like I know it's not about the money but when you said that I was like wait yeah wait this a thing like we can actually do this yeah no I know also like ⁓ shout to my brain for like finally realizing I should probably Check that. Well, especially because we were always like, I wonder how much our old job is pulling in and we never could figure it out. And never we're always so frustrated with that. And now it's like, ⁓ we have that. We know it. We know it's right there. We just forgot that we could know. the level of irony is I know, I know. And maybe maybe it's trauma. I don't know, but it's like we ⁓ yeah, we actually have the power. Wild. That's We do what we do. Having the power feels real good. Yeah. ⁓ I yeah. mean, ⁓ now kinda like gotten a little bit off track to what we were actually gonna talk about today. So I'm gonna ⁓ should give backstory? Yeah. Should we tell our story? A little bit, yeah. Okay. So our of celebrating a year of being in business, yay. ⁓ means that we are finally a year free from our previous employment contract. Yes. Which is super lovely. yeah. kind of backstory on that. And if you're in the field you're probably pretty familiar with these types of clauses and contracts. ⁓ But you're not, ⁓ buckle up, you're about to get educated a little bit. so in field there's oftentimes a lot of clauses in employment contracts, whether you're a ten ninety nine contracted person or you're a W two employee ⁓ about kind of a lot of things, but the main things are that there's a non compete clause. Mm-hmm. and if not familiar with like a non compete clause, I feel like you probably would be better at describing that. Yeah, well ⁓ I mean preface to non compete's are non admissible anymore. They have been deemed illegal. You can't have them anymore, which is extra fun. but non competes are basically ⁓ a clause in your contract where you can't take your clients or you can't take employees from your current job into your next job, carry carry over your work. ⁓ it's basically to prevent, you know, copyright infringement, stealing people's money, ⁓ steal taking their income. Right. It's it's kind of a trap, if I'm being honest. So the like ⁓ this field. Yeah. they've taken it away for all fields because it is so like there is so much entrapment in that and you can only ⁓ only admissible if you make like over three hundred thousand dollars a year, which is bananas, but that makes sense. Yeah, you you're like probably have trade secrets or you're Exactly, exactly. We don't have trade secrets. We're gonna I do, yes. ⁓ yeah, I mean And ha in our field how non-competenes show up is that like, hey, if you leave a practice, you can't take your clients. Yeah. Which is just wild to me on such an like so many different fronts because if you're working with clients and people truly care about the continuity, like ⁓ the work that you've done, not taking them with you or giving ⁓ the very least, at the very least, giving yourself an ⁓ an option for them to continue with if you move on ⁓ absolutely ludicrous to me. Completely. Like ⁓ completely ludicrous to me. I even heard of a place ⁓ they charge you a fee ⁓ for your clients. With you. Like you could take your clients with you, but you like pay. I don't like that. I know. I was like, that's also wild. I'm not liking that. No, I mean it definitely goes against a section of our code of ethics, which is continuity of care and appropriate referral y processes and things like that, like termination of clients. Like that's not that's not okay. Right, yeah, totally. And like ⁓ that's that's one fun clause in employment contracts, and then the other fun clause is the non-disparagement clause. Which is what has us ⁓ ⁓ I have a hard time being quiet. wouldn't say quiet, I would say calculated. ⁓ Yes. that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I definitely have not been quiet ⁓ when I'm not on camera. No for certain. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, the just the idea that we can't say anything or affect any level of business that your like ⁓ company or like the current company that you're leaving could Which like and for a year, which is like That's insane. Yeah. Like all of it's insane. Yeah. I mean our year flew by, so it did. It really did. Now we're let loose. So we thought it would be kinda like fun to do kind like a as a way of celebrating being a year in our business of like, hey, let's talk a little bit about our experience being in group practice, what we've s also seen in group practice, because we've seen a lot of different structures and a lot of a lot of wild out there. ⁓ And like just kind of talk about what to look out for when you're entering the field or like things to know. Yeah. Because we have seen a lot and we've been through like the ringer when it comes to like going to a group practice and then having to leave. Yeah. Yeah. And we have experience supervising people in some of those other structures that we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly s you know, to put There's very few good. That's the unfortunate thing. This is true. This is true. And I think what's know, as we were talking about this, what really breaks my heart is that the beginning of our last job was amazing. Yeah, I loved it. Like was it was great. It was perfect. I I never thought I would leave. ⁓ No. like neither we talked about that. Yeah, neither of us wanted to leave. No, it was like this feels great. We have someone that does our insurance billing. I had benefits, like I know you didn't need them, but like I had 401k. Yes. Which like I know we could we'll have to get to that at some point. But we had Most most importantly we had 41k matching. That's like that's a big piece. It was good matching. Yeah, it was it was good matching. I was like decent okay, bud. Great. ⁓ had great employees. Yeah. Because we were in charge of hiring them. So if we didn't like them that would be kind of on us. Yeah. like We built ourselves up, we like got promotions and like ended up in a role and even the roles at the beginning were really great. They were so fun. Yeah. And then got real. Yeah, things got really real. Things got real and ⁓ and like weird. I think ⁓ generally group practices have a lot of trouble scaling properly and I think one of the things that we weren't really in control of was how much we were growing. I think we grew like way too quickly. Yeah. And then there were also aspects of like Adding on to the company like in other states that we just like weren't in charge of and had no control over, but we both knew were bad ideas and like were not gonna be worth the money. Yeah. And so there's just a lot of parts of the like the practice that we didn't have control over, but like ⁓ kind of goofy and just started causing a lot of like I don't know. Just like stress. Like undue stress. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've seen this a few times recently, like in my looking up about group practices and I've seen some posts on Instagram about like red flags and group practices. ⁓ yeah. And one of the number one things is companies that scale super quickly. Yeah. Right? And you and I never would have known that until we saw that happen and we did see that happen. Yeah, we did. And it was And we like tried to cap it too. We Did yeah. we we so hard for so much ⁓ throughout whole process that it was like really frustrating. And I think that was kind of one of the turning points for us was like, like we're trying so hard. Yeah. I think for me a lot of it was just like continuing to have the same conversation over and over and over. Yeah of like, hey, like ⁓ this doesn't sense, or like, hey, like, you know I I can't think of like a really good example of like gonna think of like I don't even know. Yeah. Well, and for context too, Olivia and I were basically like at the same level. We we had essentially the same job. We were just in charge of different sections of the company, like different groups of people. Yeah. Yeah. So we basically did the same thing, just like they looked different because I worked with students and you worked with licensed people for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we kinda like shared oversight of the supervisors or less. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that would be like I there's so to me I think There's a couple of things in that, which is like if you're looking at a group practice, look at like how long they've been around and at how big they are. And like look at how they scaled basically. How many pages of therapists do they have? Right, yeah, yeah. And then like the other thing I would think in conjunction with that is just like this idea of because this often, I think. I don't wanna like disparage people. I think yeah if I were to do it again, this is something I would look for. I think if I knew this like a couple of years ago, I would have been like, ooh okay, like yeah, that matters, but like I don't have time to worry about that. Mm-hmm. But like I would want a lot more transparency at like where the money is going. Yes. I agree with that a hundred percent. Of like, okay, you have all these people and you're making all this, but like I generally kinda wanna know, like what's the overhead ⁓ like? Or like w how is the owner actually kinda like generally making? Or like ⁓ if company is growing, what's the goal? Right. Or like what's the benchmark? Or like are you working towards adding these certain things and like how close are way to adding those things. Yeah. And so just like having a lot more transparency about like where the cash flow and like the structure are both going together. Yeah. And I don't see a lot of practices do that. No, and I think even beyond that transparency about finances just in general, including pay scale, payroll, like what does that look like, right? Because was something at the beginning that we struggled to really advocate for too, which was like appropriate, healthy, ethical pay scales. ⁓ you know, really like supporting people on getting their bonuses, like or their raises every year or when they needed them, when they got licensed. that's something that should be transparent, right? Like and I think especially in this field, when we work with insurance companies, like for the most part, when you're getting paid by an insurance company, it's the s almost the same. It's standardized. It's fairly standardized, yeah. That like why can't it be transparent? Right? Like why are we not being transparent? about that. Like I know that there's some weird insurance limitations. But Yeah, right. We all know. ⁓ like we know general ranges. It's not like rocket science or something like that. Yeah. For real. Yeah. And especially too like if S kind of in in conjunction with that, if you're looking at a group practice and they have a lot of like interns, mhm. Y y I would really like take a close look because interns ultimately are free labor. Yeah. And so if a group practice has a ton of interns and they're still not like paying well or have good benefits or whatever, then I'd really be like, Okay, where's the money going? Totally. Like where's the money that the interns are creating? Where is it going? Yeah. Because like what? Yeah. Well, and I I I think to bounce off of that too, like are they guaranteeing caseloads with that too? You because what we saw was like the faster we scaled, the more we scaled, the slower the client intake felt. Yes. Right. And it wasn't and like, ⁓ but like the more variable it was. Yes. Which, like, some people get did get a bunch of clients and had no problem. Right. But other people like really struggled. ⁓ Right. so, like, we had a little bit of an issue. ⁓ Like, had an issue and it kept continuing, but it was was still variable. Yeah. So it was like super unpredictable. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like that's something to look for when you're going to a group practice is like how are you getting clients? How are they like how are they supporting you in marketing? How are they supporting you? What happens if you don't get any clients? Like what do they do? Because that happens. ⁓ a hundred percent it happens. Yeah. And if and if places are like promising you a bunch of clients or they're like ⁓ we get this many referrals a day and blah blah blah blah blah or like ⁓ I've had a clinician build up in a month and like all this I would would very much take it with a grain of salt and still plan like you're going to build a caseload slowly and like go into it with that and ask those questions and like really advocate because in group practices you're getting paid by the hour, you're not salaries. So if you're not seeing clients, like you're not getting paid. So like caseload building is just as important in group practice as it is in private practice. Yeah. ⁓ So like ⁓ think yeah you know another thing I don't think we necessarily like witness this a lot, but like What's turnover rate like? ⁓ in community mental health, that's really important to ask about. Like, how often are people turning over employee wise? Yeah. ⁓ and I think that's a really important question for associates out there looking at going into group practice is what's your turnover of supervisors? Like, I think there was a moment where we had some weird like supervisor turnover or like around that we had to do, and it was yeah, so stressful. it was, yeah. And and that's important too. Like, if if a group practice has turning over, ⁓ if they don't actually have supervisors. Supervisors, ⁓ my gosh, yeah. That's a problem. ⁓ And I've seen this a lot where they will have supervisors and they will promise a certain amount of frequency. Right. Or be like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, we're we're planning to get a social worker. Or like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, totally. We can support your licensure, like you can do it weekly. And it's like, well, that person is, you know, one ⁓ for like 20 people. ⁓ maybe getting like once a month and it's group. Yeah. Or something, right? Yeah. so definitely when you think about asking questions around supervision, it's like get that stuff in writing, like Yeah, everything. Yeah. If I was to do it again, I'd get so much shit in writing. Yeah. much shit. Which like we started doing ⁓ Yeah, we started doing towards the end. Yeah, constantly. yeah, I was I was taking of every single ⁓ meeting just being like, I'm not taking the fall for any of this when this comes back because I'm doing my part. Right. Yeah. I wrote so many meeting note emails. ⁓ Like insane amount. ⁓ Yeah. bananas. Like 'cause I was just like, ⁓ like these things you say you're gonna do. Yeah. I know you're not gonna do it. So I'm gonna put it in an email that you're supposed to do it so that I have four emails of four Week straight where you haven't done that thing you said you were gonna do. Yeah. Cause like I'm not doing that. I'm not taking the fall for that not getting done. Right. Right. So yeah, I yeah, I overdocumented it because I was like, Ain't no way I'm taking the fall for any of this. Yeah, and I will say too, like, there are also some structures that don't offer supervis like supervisors. Yeah. But like they're transparent about it. Right. And so, like, if you are looking for a group practice, be mindful of that. Like, some don't offer supervision, you will have to pay for that, but like that's how you want to look. So there is like you know W2 type of group practice and then there's other types of group practices that are like what how would you call them? Are you talking about like collectives? Yeah, like or like just that you're all 1099s. Yeah. Which like you're contracted. Which gets complicated in the therapist communicate community and People hate it. We'll you on it. ⁓ Yeah a whole that's a whole can of worms that we can't even like no the way We're not the people to talk to about that. Not Yeah. Noob noob. What are some other like red flags that I don't know, maybe we see now that we didn't see then or that we saw towards the end? Hmm. When it sounds like it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. Yeah. would agree with that. Do you ever think I hate to say that out loud, but it's No, I think that's totally accurate. I think we both fell for that. ⁓ Yeah. I for sure. Yeah. What do you think is like the number one thing that comes up with that? Like, can you remember anything? Just like ⁓ promise of title or promise of pay or promise of like Like someone an assistant. Like Yeah. ⁓ Or to even like the promise of like I can't think of the right word, but like expansion of the business but like in a like in more of a like us directed way. So like I I would almost say like prestige, but that's like that's a little lofty. I don't think that was like a promise, but I feel like it was kind of in the ether up there. Yeah. ⁓ like promises of changes too, right? Of like, ⁓ yeah, like this doesn't like really work very well. So like yeah, maybe we like should change that thing or whatever. Yeah. because we had a lot of issues with our like third party biller at the time. And like also like full disclosure, we've had Issues with our third party biller that we hired and we have since fired. Right. And so like I think I think when you're hiring a third party biller, it it's just it's challenging. Yeah, it's just gonna be hard. Yeah. And so like now that we've been on the outside, we've hired a third party biller, like we we do get it in a different way than we did before. But just like there continue to be issues and it'd be like, hey, like we should really really find a better system or like a better process. I was like, ⁓ yeah, like we should. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that would be it. We're like, okay. Yeah. So many of those promises. Yeah. So many of those things. Like. And I think it's so easy to believe people when like I think I think when it was told to us it was sincere in part. Yeah, I would agree. Like, I don't think it was like a lie, but I think with just like therapists in general, they tend to be more like believe the best in people and like be really trusting. And I think those are really lovely things, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to change. that like I don't want to change that about myself. Yeah. But like notice the pattern a little bit faster maybe. Like I think that would be my feedback to myself. I'm like pick up on it. Yeah. Like come on. Like it's right there. Yeah. ⁓ think I think it was so you know inconsistent bosses are so hard to deal with. you know, where it would be like, I'm gonna promise and deliver and then I'm gonna promise and not deliver. Yeah, it felt like we were like getting like strung along dopamine. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ ⁓ yeah. Does that make any sense? Totally. Yeah yeah, okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Man. Thinking back on it and like reflecting on it is really like shit. Yeah. We went through a lot. We did. ⁓ mean What for you do you feel like made you stay as long as you did? ⁓ that's a really good question. I think the people around me Yeah. So like you that's what I would say. Yeah, and and there were so many other people that were so supportive and so amazing to work with all the time and like we met like the coolest people. The coolest people and we hired the coolest people. And like I loved working with schools. Mm like being able to talk to school directors and school programs and like really learn about those things. Like I loved that. And not to say I can't do that again in the future, but like I I do I do miss that. Yeah. That's so real. Yeah, but I do think that that was something that kept me was like, ⁓ I like this I like this job. You know, I I like what I'm doing. I don't like the stuff that's happening around it and within it, 'cause I was definitely burned out, but the people kept me, the benefits kept me, having PTO kept me. but I will say it's not worth it. Yeah, now that we're the other side, I say it's not worth it. Yeah. I I my and my answer to that same question would be kind of the same thing as just like that. And I I just had this flash. I'm like, like I should probably go to therapy. of like I ⁓ think. it this it was really nice to feel needed. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. 'Cause we felt very critical to the like life force of the practice. Yeah. And like I will say that was one of the most meaningful pieces of that job for me like having ⁓ like make a request or like have an ask or like need an accommodation or need some kind of support or whatever. And it might be like a little bit off the beaten track of like what I had done before or historically what the company had done or whatever, and finding a way to make it work and like pushing it through and advocating and like setting it in stone basically. Yeah. And like really ⁓ Really supporting that person regardless of like all these other things. And to me that was such a meaningful thing because it was so hope for the people that I was able to do that for. Like my hope was that it was like ⁓ ⁓ to their own like professional development and like growth ⁓ it was like, how could that not be meaningful? And like supporting this person and their livelihood, but like and what they want to do and what they feel called to do, all these things. So it's like, yeah, that was so meaningful to me, and I like felt really critical and being able to do that. Yeah. And like so that was felt like such a needed role. Yeah. I was like, I'm doing it. I'm like help not only am I like helping clients, but I'm like also behind the scenes like helping all these people helping clients. And like the ripple effect of that was like, ⁓ I'm like doing so much. Totally. Which was like such a like lovely feeling. Yeah. I even remember having conversations with you before we left about like we w wanting to create a business where clinicians felt safe and felt yeah respected and and supported and all of that like we talk about that all the time right like that is our number one like value in our company and even the company we had worked for before like and it it's a bummer that there was a mismatch of values in that system yeah but we tried so hard yeah we did and yeah and I do miss supporting those people and I do think that's probably why like I try so hard to advocate for my associates Even though there's like not really anything to advocate for them with right now. I'm like There's no battles to fight. Let me end the war. Let me find something. Trauma. me be drafted. Draft me. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, such a good point. Yeah. Are there any other red flags that you can think of? ⁓ go a woman-known business? ⁓ mean, yeah, but like how many are there? ⁓ many. Not many. Not many. You know, I think I know if this is necessarily a red flag, but like when you visit like a website of a group practice. When you talk to a group practice owner or a director, how do those how does that person make you feel? Right? Like not necessarily how how does the business structure make you feel? Like that's a big part. Yeah, pros and cons basically. Like how do those people make you feel? How does the website make you feel? You know, like if I could change anything about the old company it would have been their website. But like that is so important, right? And I think we were the face of that company for so long that like that's why we were able to build that. But looking back, I think if I had followed my gut, it would be different. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I remember when I took the job initially, thought it was either gonna be the worst job of my life or the best. Same. I was either like, ⁓ guy is absolutely high as a kite and has no idea what he's doing and it's gonna be like the absolute worst. Yeah. But I was like, but like it has enough of the things that I've been looking for that like I'm gonna roll the dice. Yeah. And that also at that point too, like I was really close to licensure. So I was like, if it's really bad, I'll just get my license and I'll dip. Yeah. Cause once I had my license, it was like I the door opened up and I could really go anywhere. Yeah, I was I was just getting licensed as I got the job. So I got licensed before taking the job. there a lot of promises ⁓ in first meeting. And that was you know, but it was that thing I needed to get out of community mental health. I I ⁓ wasn't ready run a second business at that time. Like n not by myself. Hell no. ⁓ Yeah. No. And I I couldn't even I I mean I hadn't even really technically been in a therapist role until that job. That's right. So like the idea of going out on my own, like that was so far outside the realm of possibility. Like that was never gonna happen. Like that was Yeah, I forgot about that. That was never gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. I did therapy esque things, but not anywhere close to like what this is. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely think like pay attention to your gut. to how somebody makes you feel, listen to how like a website make you feel. Like I know that sounds so silly, but like if I go look at my website, I'm like, ⁓ I could go talk to these people. Yeah. That's nice. You're like, ⁓ it's a cutesy. Yeah. And then there's others where I'm like, ⁓ these are really warm and like rich and inviting. And then there's others where it's like this sterile. Yeah. Or like hard to look at. Yeah. Like too many words. Yeah. So like really Yeah you know ha is your stomach giving you red flags? Better listen to that. Yeah. If the person gives you a job after offer like in your initial interview twenty minutes. Yeah. Fi ten? Yeah. Yeah, it was only twenty minutes for me because I like asked a ton of questions. Of course you did. Whoa Yeah. I didn't really need to 'cause I had already You already knew. I already knew ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, I did it. Well, also like background too. I had been looking for almost a year. Right. And so I had interviewed at other group practices, but at the time a lot of group practices did not hire associates, so it was really hard to find. Yeah. there were a couple of places that like I got job offers from or they didn't they're like, ⁓ you're not niche enough that we're gonna be able to get you private pay clients, so like no. Right. And then there were other ones that like wanted me and I was like, so you don't have supervision ⁓ I have to work weekends and I have no flexibility of my schedule and like all these things and I was like, this is bomb like no. Why would I like I don't want to work weekends? ⁓ if you're not working weekends, why would I have like ⁓ No. Yeah. Yeah, and I even had one I think I told you this, I even had one practice tell me like, well it'll be like slower to build up, but like other people like go get a job at Starbucks or like Yes. Yeah, you did tell me about that. And I was literally like, So you want me to leave my ⁓ hour week? job to work at Starbucks part part time so I have time for ⁓ clients. Yeah ⁓ No. ⁓ no not gonna be doing that. No no. He also recorded the interview. That the Starbucks person? Yeah. ⁓ weird. Yeah. ⁓ that's strange. Yeah. ⁓ I don't that's a thing that they do anymore, but if that happens you should not do that. Yeah, I mean he asked my permission and I was kinda like, ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I you know, I even talked to a therapist today. Who records interviews? That's that's weird. That's so weird. Like if you want to record interviews then have an HR person there. Yeah. Right? that's weird. Yeah. So badly want to know what this place was because I don't remember. That's okay, I'll tell you. Okay. After we after we record. talked to a therapist this morning who ⁓ to work for a practice that we know of. And her I talked about like kind of these like toxic group practice behaviors, and she was like, ⁓ I regret and ⁓ wish would have followed my gut at the beginning because I just knew ⁓ that fell off and she up the things like scaling and all of that that was like that's what ruined it for her. Yeah. Was like all of this we're gonna be big and we're gonna put up billboards and stuff that she was like, this this just doesn't meet my values anymore. Yeah. I was like, yeah. And she started there when they had like five people. That's almost close to what we were ⁓ Cause like when I started Well, we started the same month, right? Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah. There was only like less than ten. Yep. And that was only a couple of years before we started at our old job. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah, so for context we took we started a company group practice with like less than ten clinicians. Mm-hmm. And within a little over five years, mm-hmm we both became directors and grew the company to like like ninety. Yeah. Yeah. fast. ⁓ 'cause I think like that first the first year I would I would probably say four years. 'Cause I think the first year we were like Yeah. just becoming like supervisors and then like kind of yeah power grabbing for our tiles. I feel like if I'm remembering correctly, we became supervisors and then all of a sudden it was like, ⁓ we have all these people now. And then we like need more like Management. Yeah, intermediate. And then from there it like it was like this exponential growth. And the next thing we know we were like looking at our numbers. Like I remember a conversation we had where y I think we asked I think we asked in a meeting how many clients or how many clinicians do you think we have? Remember? And boss was like 25. And ⁓ and I look at each other on camera and are just like d about 75? And I think it was 75 because I remember it being 70 something and I remember this conversation ⁓ and just being like mind blowing. Like if your boss doesn't know how many clients you or clinicians you have Yikes. bro. Yeah, ⁓ Yeah. then we kept growing and they're still growing. Yeah. Best of to you. Literally. Yeah. I know. ⁓ so what do think? I mean, was there any like what was the most valuable thing that we can take away from that job that like we are still using? I mean, if I had to like really sum it up into one thing, I think I would just say like confidence in myself. Mm-hmm. That I can figure things out. That I can like get through things, that I know what I'm doing, and if I don't, then I'm willing to learn. Like admit that I don't know it and learn it. Yeah. because like I think that's the skill that ⁓ has been the most valuable. Yeah. I was other than taking you with me. Right, right. I was gonna say something a little more crass and I was gonna be like, we're boss ass bitches. that's the same thing, right? Like knowing I did have the skills to do something like what we're doing now. Like I think without that job, without that experience, I don't know if I would be as good as I am now. Yeah, and also like to be clear, it's not that I don't wanna paint this picture that like I was some like vulnerable victim. neither of us were like there, like we were super passive. 'Cause like let me be very very clear. I bullied for title. ⁓ yeah. I I've I fucking bullied She bullied for me too. ⁓ Yeah, I I b I bullied for my title. Yeah. and like I literally remember being like, hey, it's gonna be clinical director. I was like, ⁓ well like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's fine, whatever. I get the paperwork, it's counseling director. I just emailed HR. ⁓ actually it's clinical. ⁓ so sorry got it updated. I didn't even I yeah technically I didn't even ask my boss. Yeah. I just like ⁓ it's supposed to be clinical changed it, signed it. It's like great I'm clinical director now. Yeah, I didn't change it. I did the same thing 'cause mine came to me as internship coordinator. Nope. And I was like, ⁓ no no no. Internship director. And think like the the values in which we ⁓ to in and are really important to us are are are also things like the that carried us through that experience. Because like ⁓ we were really transparent with each other about like how much we are making and how much we were taking ⁓ on, like we were having, ⁓ all those And so, ⁓ I think also really benefited us because ⁓ I think we're able to catch vibe sooner and like ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ if you truly think about it, technically you and I have been running a company for six years now. Almost. Yeah. Yeah. we running the company. We were running a company. We were running a big company. not a company we necessarily ⁓ to be running, but did at the same time. ⁓ wanted to be running it, but we wanted to actually be in control like ⁓ the ownership. Yeah. Or at least the end goal of like being able to have some level of ownership. Which to be clear ⁓ potential. Yes. That was something that was kind of like that was one of the promises. ⁓ That was one of the promises. So and we we followed up on that promise. We did. And that follow up did not go. well. Which is why we got fired. I don't think we've said on this podcast yet. Yeah. We we got fired. We we were fired. We were let go on a Monday. In the middle of a client session. Yeah. Via email. Yeah. After five years at the company. Yep. And I just happened to be in town. Yeah. And so Andrea came over and we hung out all day 'cause we didn't have anything to do. I was at my dad's house and I was calling my Uber to go to our office to see clients in person that day. Yeah, I was working 'cause I was in the middle of a client's issue. Yeah, you were working and I ⁓ were like you called me, I think, and you're like, Is it a tech issue? Like what's going on? And then we find out. Yeah. And then I was just like, Can I I come over like what the fuck? Yeah. Most bananas day ever. Because we yeah, like background too, we had given her notice. We had given a really We talked a lot about this personally of like what are the ethics of giving notice, how long of notice do you want do we wanna give? How much of a heads up? How transparent do we wanna be? Because we knew that like the more transparent we were, the more vulnerable we were to like exact scenario of being fired or like retaliation essentially. Yeah. ⁓ had crossed our mind. We had literally talked about it. Yeah. Yeah. And so we talked a lot and like I think both of us, like facetiously, passive aggressively, Wanted to give a two-week notice. Yeah. We did. I like so wanted to do that. We did. and the only reason I think we really decided against that was the people. Yeah. Because that was such a ⁓ a big reason why we stayed for so long. Yeah. We truly did not want the company to crash and burden with us leaving. And if we had ⁓ and we and we didn't we didn't think that it ⁓ if we left, but we wanted to be able to like set it up for success because exactly. Gosh, we invested so much time. So much. Like, why would we want it to fail like that? Seems ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Like why I why would I want to do that? Like I've worked with these people for years. Right. We were following our ethics as therapists that we felt were appropriate and was the best and we didn't I did nothing. ⁓ did nothing wrong. ⁓ we we gave a like very healthy what four months. Yeah, we gave a four month notice basically. Yeah. Which is like a long amount of time. And got fired it like halfway. Right? No, no, no. Just over halfway? No, we had a month left. ⁓ that's right. We had a month left. Yeah, we both had about a month left. so crazy to me. Yeah. It yeah, it's it's wild. I mean like best luck over there, but like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It like I think just like f for anybody who's interested in in group practice, I think it can be really well done. I think I think that there are group practices that do a really, really good job and that can offer support to so many clinicians, you know, especially like I think about disabled clinicians, clinicians that need health care, like that is such a better route for a lot of people and something that they need to do for themselves and we totally get that. Yeah. But at the same time, like follow your gut, ask questions. Like just because it's a group practice doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. that they like ⁓ as ethical as they may seem. Yeah. ⁓ encouragement too, like Stick it out, right? Like there's there are a lot of group practices out there, so like keep looking. Don't give up if you feel like one isn't a good fit, but you like really want to get out of wherever you are. Yeah. Whatever the case may be. ⁓ like there they are there are good practices out there. yeah, I would just I would do your homework, ⁓ I would ask the questions, Yeah, just kinda talk talk to other therapists. think something I'd also ahead about as an associate looking at your practices is like ⁓ it was kind of similar to retention but ⁓ a lot of people who get fully licensed, they private practice. ⁓ Yeah. That's like natural progression. Very. Very natural. It hap like just across board it happens. So would ⁓ I would ask about that in an interview, be like, hey, like how how do you support people once they're fully licensed and like what does that look like? And like do you often have a lot of people that leave or do you often have a lot of people that stay? And like what makes people stay? Yeah. Because then you're gonna get a good sense of like how much there's weirdness around non-compete or non disparagement, or like if they're going to like try to keep you or like discourage you from going private, or give you a raise or not? Yeah. Like I did hear of Some practice out there that wasn't giving people raises for getting licensed, and I was like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah, that's bunker. That's bananas. That is very common practice. Like, that's crazy. But yeah, totally. I would agree with that. Yeah, because I think one of the things we've talked about is how can we set up our business so that it can be easy for people to launch off on their own if they that's what they want, and be like really open and transparent about that. Because like, right, it's just it happens. Like why like why Why would you create so much rigmarole around preventing it when like it happens across the board? There's no point to like it's so common. Create a cluster about it. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think you know, too, like that's something we want to create, like you said, is a structure that will support people if they don't want to go out on their own fully, but to have support in a community, because going out on your own could be really lonely, like it could be really isolating. Yeah. So you know, asking those good questions about how do you support licensed folks so much sense. ⁓ ⁓ I think like we really big on like informing people and educating people. I think that's part of our transparency. But that's I think one of the things that the other thing I would highlight is like when you're with other practices, ⁓ do they informative? Like do they feel like they're providing like educational information and you feel like you know more what's going on. Not just about them but But just like generally, yeah, that's a good vibe. Yeah. I think we like I I don't know if you've had this experience, but I feel like I've met just in consults for associates lately where we're talking and they're constantly like, didn't know that. That's cool. Or like, I that. That's interesting. Like, ⁓ all the time. Engaging with us about like, ⁓ I didn't know that that thing could exist. Or like, or you could do it that way, or like, ⁓ like nobody's ever said that idea. didn't know or yeah all the time all the time and so it's like that's good right like that's that's education we're not telling anyone to do it a specific way at all I mean I'll admit sometimes I'm like don't do that thing but in a like because you should come with us yeah never never ⁓ it is it is it's almost empowering for me to feel like the expert in that Yeah. You know? What a like full circle moment. Only like when you're in business and being like, Okay, like this is what you should think about or look out for when like a year ago we were researching the same thing. I know. ⁓ my gosh. Like how do you open a private practice in Washington? What do you do? What do you do? What do I need? It's not as scary as it feels. You're right, yeah. It's not. I think it it seemed so much scarier many years ago. it's really not. Like ⁓ you put your heart to it and you have the confidence and the drive to do it, it's okay. And the support to do it too, right? Like even if you're doing it on your own, you should have people in your corner. Yeah. Well gosh, you don't have that then like ⁓ that's a problem. ⁓ A hundred A hundred percent. My Well cheers us. When you're in business. ⁓ Cheers. how yeah, I I like so excited for the future. I think we're gonna do continue to do not going to, but like continue to do really amazing things. I think this business is gonna be like yeah just like the coolest thing. We have so many goals that we want to achieve, like and I have ⁓ doubt in my mind that both of us can do them. And they're not lofty, crazy, outrageous goals. Like we wanna be in every state. We want billboards, we don't wanna be in every state. I I want a billboard of you. I want to build Word of View behind my house. Ooh. So I can see it every day when I come home. I think having an in-person office would be fun one day, even if I'm not there. Like I won't be there, but sure. But like even if we just built one and be like, we have a building. Yeah, we'll talk about that. I'm not as on board with the whole in person office. That's fair. Maybe, but we'll see one day. I just think like when I go see a lobby that's really cool, like this weekend, I'm like, ugh, I miss this. I would be hands down I would love to decorate it. Yeah, exactly. And design it. I don't know if I'd actually want to use it or have a use it. You and I would never be there. We'll actually just use it for like podcast recording. If we're making an up okay, that we need to table that. We need to table that. Well, thanks for joining us for our like special anniversary episode where we also get to be in person, which is like pretty rare. And we wore our branding colors. we didn't match. Actually that's really That is that was the real good moment. I almost I like I pul almost pulled out a blue shirt and I was like, I swear if I get out there with a blue shirt, she's gonna be wearing one. So I'll put on hot pink 'cause I know she doesn't have any hot pink. No. ⁓ I don't thank guys so much for Another listen, like, comment, subscribe, all the things. And we'll see you on a rabbit trail episode. Yeah, get ready. Woo-hoo! See ya. Bye.