Latest / The Resilience Project / Born Brokenhearted and Expected to Be Whole: Adoptee Grief, Faith, and Healing with Anita Garber

Transcript

Born Brokenhearted and Expected to Be Whole: Adoptee Grief, Faith, and Healing with Anita Garber · The Resilience Project

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi y'all, I'm Julie.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a trauma-informed adoptee coach and somatic healing guide.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: After overcoming deep abandonment wounds, I now help adult adoptees move from feeling lost and disconnected to experiencing profound self-belonging.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know what it is like to carry the weight of abandonment, to feel stuck in patterns of longing, adapting, and searching for belonging.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: To have tried every healing modality available and come up empty.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: My own healing has taught me this.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: The answers aren't out there.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're buried within me.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here to guide you home to yourself.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: The Resilience Project Podcast brings voice, visibility, and validation to the parts of adoption society rarely names, but all of us feel.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Through an trauma-informed somatic lens, I explore the lived experiences of the entire adoption constellation with a tender emphasis on the adoptive experience.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast goes beyond storytelling into soul tone.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: It offers embodied insight, compassionate education, and a path towards awareness, hope, and strength.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode invites listeners to understand adoption more deeply, not just with the mind, but with the nervous system, and to reconnect with the truth, identity, and belonging that were always yours to come home to.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the podcast, everybody.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I am excited for today's episode.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: It feels really special because we're talking about something I think so many adoptees quietly wrestle with.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do we step toward healing without bypassing grief?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do we sit with discomfort, longing, identity questions, and pain without trying to immediately escape them?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: My guest today is Anita Garber, a social worker, a worship leader, a writer, and author of Wading in the Waves, a 40-day journey of healing, grief, identity, and belonging in the presence of God.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, the deeper I've gotten into this book, the more I found myself pausing, putting it down, letting something settle before I could keep reading.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because so much of what Anita writes mirrors the conversations that we have here on this podcast, that healing is something we can choose, that grief lives in the body, and that feelings are invitations, not failures.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that belonging isn't something we earn, it's something we slowly reconnect to.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a moment in the book where Anita writes a letter, an actual letter addressed to adoption itself.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one line stopped me completely.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was born brokenhearted and expected to be whole.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Born brokenhearted and expected to be whole.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I've ever heard the Adoptee experience named more honestly than that.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because so many of us learn to survive by disconnecting from what hurt.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: We learn to look fine, to be grateful, to perform wholeness we hadn't been given the chance to actually build.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: But healing often begins when we stop running from the waves and allow ourselves to finally be honest about what we carry.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And today, Anita and I are going to talk about grief, identity, rejection, forgiveness, body memory, what it means to live as a daughter instead of an orphan, and what it means to let God meet us in the middle of it.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited for this conversation.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get into it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Anita.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad to be here.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a such a joy and such a privilege.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I could say the same right back to you.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So love being with you.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're fun to be with.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Just seeing you smile makes me happy.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive in.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: What inspired you to write Waiting in the Waves?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, what inspired me?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: I never set out to write a book.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's just the honest truth.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't do well with grammar, and words are not my thing.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Those were my excuses.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: But with Waiting in the Waves, a book a mentor introduced me to was Seven Core Issues on Adoption and Permanency, which for those of you who aren't familiar with it, I believe it was published pre-2020, maybe 2018.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it talks about that every life stage, developmental milestone, adoptees cycle through these seven different issues.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I was also on the fringe of a lot of adoptee spaces and heard a lot of conversations that were devoid of God.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, God was either the scapegoat or not a part of the conversation.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, they're missing the point.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so in talking to the Lord about that, he's like, You're gonna write a book.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh, am I?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And me just being me, God is a core component and a fundamental aspect of everything I do.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I looked at the seven core issues: grief, loss, mastery, identity, control, belonging, rejection, those kind of things.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also missing something that adoptees don't talk about, or that they are closet.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in God, but it's in my closet, and I've been rejected by the church.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of church, lots of religious trauma could go on and on and on.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was okay, there needs to be something else added to that.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about, let's start with God.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's because that's really where where everybody starts.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what you believe about God will impact the rest of your life and everything else that flows from that.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was okay, I'm gonna write a book, and it's gonna be talking about God and all these issues, and then sitting with the Lord, he's and this is gonna be your title.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how Waiting in the Waves came to be was just observations of adoptive spaces and conversations with the Lord.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: You write that healing is something we can choose.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: What shifted for you to begin believing that?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one, mentors.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've been blessed with extraordinary mentors who consistently talked about that our lives are the visible reality of our thoughts and how neuroplasticity works, change your thinking, change your life.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Also seeing a lot of in different church settings and ministry settings, they talk a lot that I've been in, they talk a lot about how unforgiveness can manifest physically in your body.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen people who have thyroid issues and tuber and just a lot of mental health situations, when they forgive, the things just they're healed.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: They'll go back to their doctor and get confirmation of these things disappearing.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it, yeah, I just also think looking at scripture and seeing those who came to Jesus, notably the man in John 5 lying by the pool, Jesus is like, Hey, do you want to be healed?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And healing was always in scripture, we see healing as a choice that people had the option to opt in.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to be healed?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then there was something that followed.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Take, take up your mat and walk.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or there's different things, but it was it was never outside of their control.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those three things, we have choices.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Are we gonna choose the path that leads to healing, or are we gonna continue perpetuating what we've been living in?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely, 100%.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So one line that stayed with me was waiting in the waves is about stepping into our deepest pain and inviting God to meet us there.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk more about that?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the title, Waiting in the Waves, and one of the books that I read previously, forgive my memory, it was called The Roar, God's Sound in a Raging World by Bob Hazlitt.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he talks about this, Psalms 427.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the word it's deep calling into deep, when the roar of your waterfall that all your waves and breakers crash over me.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it was written by the sons of Korah in a time of exile, and it's talking about a deep longing for hope for God, yet acknowledging a form of uh connecting with the presence of God.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: But he doesn't, he doesn't use it in that terminology.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's this is a water spout, which is a water tornado out of water, and he pulls the connotation of what he shares is that it's pulling the deep things, it's deep calling into deep, and it's the it's meeting in that meeting place.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that just struck me because it's the presence of God meeting us in our times of distress, turmoil, despair, and waves.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Weaves are continual, they're unknown, they're unpredictable.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the depth, sometimes there's a drop-off, sometimes there's a sandbar, sometimes you don't, you don't ever know.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it's those challenging places, those unknown places, it's those deep things that we carry.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: That, oh, all of these seven core issues are really deep, nuanced.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: They change on lots of different, depending on lots of different things.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just inviting God to journey with us in those places.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so good.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think so many people are afraid to step into their grief or their discomfort?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Questions without answers.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Grief doesn't really have it come with answers, it doesn't come with a book.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of uncomfortability, feeling all of the things because I don't know what's gonna happen.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of fear of being vulnerable.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's just a lot of straight up fear.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of, I think, a lot of the fear comes a lack of control and a lack of feeling safe.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Safe in your skin, safe with all of these emotions and experiences, the expectations of maybe ex people around you of how you're gonna process this and what it's gonna look like and how it's gonna impact you.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, yeah, it's just a lot of uncomfortability, unknown, and fear.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna talk about safety a little bit later, too.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you believe happens when we avoid pain for too long?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh we know this scientifically and statistically, uh, you become emotionally numb or detached, physical and mental health challenges arise, increased feelings of anxiety, stress, depression, detachment, all of these things.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Your body holds it all.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't do it, your body begins to come down.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to hear you say it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I say it all the time, but I just wanted to hear you say it.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so in the boardwalk chapter, you say, right now, I give myself permission to be uncomfortable as my feelings are not necessarily an indicator of safety or reality.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting how these connected, what you just described.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I loved that so much.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So can you speak into the difference of feeling unsafe versus feeling uncomfortable?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I when I think of uh feeling unsafe, it's when you're under an external threat of physical or emotional danger, you're physically, and your body comes and sees it as a survival threat.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: We see the fight, fight, flight, fight, flee, freeze, or fawn response.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And more when you're feeling uncomfortable, it's it often I connect that with when we're doing something uncomfortable or new.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: You might feel awkward.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: There might be a little bit of anxiety around it, but I think a way to differentiate it is saying, am I physically in danger?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this something that's new and I'm stepping out of my comfort zone?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the important things, even when you refer to fight, flight, fawn, freeze, and flop, you know that's a new one, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Have you heard about that one?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't heard about flop.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, flop is the is basically shut down depression.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: But when I think about all of those, I think of looking at my body and asking it, am I in danger right now?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like what you were talking about.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Am I in danger or am I remembering danger?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is this reminding me of something that happened in my past?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I had a situation in my marriage at one point where there was a moment of trying to be close, and I immediately had this flashback to nothing.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember it was like a white sheet.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it felt like.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And my whole body froze.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And my partner at the time was a little taken aback by my response.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I had no, I didn't know what to tell him because I do feel like I'm in danger right now, but I know I'm not.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm flashing back to is nothing.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what I realized later was it was really my fear of bonding, attachment, whatever.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it was wrapped up in this before language experience.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it didn't, at the time, I didn't understand.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to learn.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see what I'm saying?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're you're following me here.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because so there was something that happened.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So my I'm a social worker, and my specific job is to prevent children from being placed into foster care.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I bad day for me is when children get placed.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember I'd been in this job for maybe four months, and I was present for my first placement.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: But state troopers rolled.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: There were six state troopers rolled up, put the kids in the car, CYS came, and they left.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was sitting with the parents and just being present, trying to be present with them.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was not okay for two weeks.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I couldn't name it, I couldn't tell you what it was, but my body remembered something that I had no conscious memory of.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I, my boss was Anita, you you're not okay.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I can't tell you.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's that there was something about that that I remember, but I don't, I don't know how to process it and I don't have words for it.
• 14:00
  unknown: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm exactly tracking with you.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: You get it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when I tried to explain that to him, he didn't understand.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why would he understand?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't expect him to.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just an uh interesting thing to call attention to that we have to think about things as are we replaying something from the past or is it actually reality?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's helped me so much.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is I can I can step out and choose healing over that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I know I'm actually safe right now, I'm actually safe.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a little uncomfortable.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So good stuff.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: In the what is your garden and what are your trees chapter?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: You ask, do you believe you were adopted because you were banished, unwanted, too much, or not enough?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why do those meanings root so deeply in adoptees?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I hear them all the time, and many other variations of these.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think they're so deep for us?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's because the primal wound.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we have conversations all about the primal wound.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's also the ambiguous loss we perceive ourselves as a problem due to not having a cohesive narrative or answers or the presence of birth parents.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And with the primal wound, it creates trauma, which is imprinted on our nervous system.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Even in utero, the trauma occurs which impacts our attachment styles and ability to trust.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we when we when we have that innate sense of unworthiness, that's that's what we we end up with.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: That and then the hypervigilance and this our bodies being stuck in a high stressed response all the time.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, because it right.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's trauma that's been imprinted, and there's no there's been no healing or reintegration of of reality or truth with that.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's why we start from that, because all the pre-verbal things and there's no Yeah, it shapes in a lot of ways, it shapes, I think, those meanings and that experience that you just described shapes our identity.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to, but it does initially because we don't know any different.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's what we're born into.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think of your story, you weren't adopted until you were four years old.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I get the chills even thinking about that.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had a client who was four when she was adopted, and the memory, she has memories, and she does.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I I think you don't.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think you and maybe you have, you've found some since you've written the book.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I was adopted at seven weeks, and I still carried a ton of stuff, right?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I just think it's really fascinating.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: It does quietly shape our identity, you would agree, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Cause yeah, the fun what you fundamentally believe about yourself, especially coming out of trauma and with all of the the yeah, all that ingrain, you're gonna believe that you're inherently bad.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't believe that you're inherently bad and be able to receive worse.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Those two things don't right.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get rid of, you have to actually uh what I call is pull them out by the roots.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get those out in order to and let them go, but that's not easily done.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it takes it takes some work, as we very well know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do really believe that we are born with CPTSD.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it there's nothing you can do about the fact that a child is born severed from their parent.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that immediately, in my opinion, is trauma, but complex because there's so many different things that are happening in those first hours of our life, depending upon what they are and what happens, that I mean, goodness gracious, it's just craziness.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you also ask, since God declared you very good, so here we go, we're getting to this part where you we believe we're inherently bad, but God declared us very good.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So what does that mean?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, why is it so difficult for adoptees to actually feel inherently worthy?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I think you already answered that.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: But what does it mean that God declared us very good?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think I'll turn that on its head and just ask.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something that you have to answer for yourself.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think God, God, because there's so you have so many different relationships.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a different relationship with God and you have a different relationship with goodness, and you can have a different relationship with God being good.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can have just one relationship with all of them, which I think is probably most simple.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the reason I asked it is because I can't, I can't tell you what that means for you.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because what you say that that changes and impacts a lot of how you're gonna journey this out.
• 18:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wanted to challenge the belief of being inherently bad.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe God makes mistakes.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he declared you very good.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Having the past that you have, having the current life situations that you have, having made all the current life choices that you have that he's declared you very good.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's them being able to explore.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: My business name is coming home to self.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's learning how to get back to who you are, that inherent worthiness that you actually do have.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's uncovering that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what is that for you?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's me helping a client actually find it within themselves.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's there, it's already there.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to bring up a story from day 14 because honestly, it gave me chills when I read it.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I said out loud, oh my gosh.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you write about a day during prayer time, I think you were at a camp or something, when a classmate was praying for you, and he said, which is really interesting because he repeated him himself a couple of times, but he said, Anita, it's time to get dressed.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to be the daughter you are called to be, time to take off the rags and get dressed.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to get dressed and be the daughter God has called you to be.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get dressed.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I read that and I was like, okay, what where is she going with this?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and you said back to him, I am dressed.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, No, you are living as an orphan and called to be a daughter.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Change your clothes.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I literally have the chills right now.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's I just went, oh my gosh, I need to meet this guy.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So can you take us back to that moment?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: What was happening in you, in you, in your body, if you can remember when he said that?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I really didn't understand.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was fully going back through my mind of modesty.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was wearing a long sleeve hoodie, I was wearing a baggy hoodie, I was wearing long pants and shoes, which is for me a rarity.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, dude, I am fully clothed.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I am dressed.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, I think when he when he was, no, you're called to be a daughter and you're living as an orphan, and he was there.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I included this part, but he saw a closet full of dresses.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I love they were like glamorous gowns.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, those are my favorite things to wear.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: If I could wear one thing for the rest of my life, it would be like gowns all day long, all year long.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: It would be amazing.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, as he was like, No, you're an orphan.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was, oh, so but I didn't know how to unpack, I didn't know what I was wearing that I needed to take off.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I did understand that part of what I was wearing, I used it as armor.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And for me to wear the gown, I couldn't I can't wear an armor and a gown.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: They don't go together.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really cool.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So what does it mean then at that time?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you can get where I'm going with this.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to live as an orphan even after you've been claimed or chosen?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm not a fan of that word.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or loved.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to live as an orphan when you've already you have a family?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I do, but you can you can keep the masks, you can keep the armor, you can you can keep your your moat.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Someone actually described me.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, Nita, I see this castle, it's called to be yours, and uh you're in the castle and there's a drawbridge and there's a moat, and you put alligators in the moat, and the drawbridge is up.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna let it down?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh man, but I I have a family.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just hadn't chosen to let them in.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't chosen to let me out.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't trust.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't, I wasn't a friend with honesty.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was not transparent.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, there was a lot of just those were your those were your rags.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those were my rags, yes.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes, I'm perfection.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: I could shape shift and be a social chameleon with what I thought was the best of them.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But those people who see you always see you, and yeah, you'll get called out and you have a choice.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to continue or do you wanna do you wanna invite a little truth and honesty into your life?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and get dressed.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so again, here we go.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Practically, what does getting dressed actually look like?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: How does someone begin living as a daughter when their nervous system has only ever known orphan?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oof, oof, oof, oof.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Slowly.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's I think slowly is really important.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it was asking people that I were consistent in my life who were safe because they were consistent and they showed up and they saw me, which was the ability to actually see me with like, oh, I love you.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're amazing.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't trust you, I don't do people, but I like you.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Was huge.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And asking them to hold me accountable.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I want to do this is my goal.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanna, I want to learn how to do this.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also being a part of a church community is is paramount because God calls me daughter.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what the I don't know what that means, other than you belong to a family.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: But belonging to a family is not just something that happens overnight.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's progressive, and you choose it and you consistently choose it and you choose to show up.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the beginning is find your safe people, ask them to hold you accountable and be willing to be called out.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not, I'm being held account for my ability to for my greatness, not for the shame, not for the brokenness, not for I feel like sometimes accountability it has a negative connotation.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm it's not you're having someone hold you accountable to who you're called to be.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, there's no negative, but they're calling you higher.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're calling you into something greater and better for you.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important for you to know, hey, when they're calling you out on something you asked them to, it's there's no shame in it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Don't put shame on yourself, don't condemn yourself, don't get into the guilt trap, don't get into the pity trap.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just let them let them love you.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes love, love is really uncomfortable when it's gosh.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's changing behaviors and patterns that have lasted you a really long time.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Years, yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and we don't really understand the why.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And as we get older, I think we begin to.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think this whole orphan-daughter distinction, I think, maps beautifully with survival identity versus true identity or adaptation versus authenticity.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's so, so important.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so many adopted people are wearing clothes that their survival sewed for them.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's well put.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's so well put.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what it makes me think of actually in the garden when Adam and Eve, you know exactly what I'm gonna say.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: When Adam and Eve sinned or whatever, and then we find God sewing them clothes.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: How unbelievably beautiful is that?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I remember thinking he loved them so much that even though they didn't need clothes, but now they their eyes were open and they see they do it, he did it for them.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something as an adopted person that I have really taken as something I want to own myself as a daughter, not an orphan.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can be a victim or not.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just choosing am I gonna wear these clothes that survival sewed for me, or am I gonna get new clothes, like your friend said, right?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're gonna move into day 15.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: You do something, yeah, yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You do something that I found incredibly brave.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: I already talked about it in the beginning.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: You wrote a letter directly to adoption.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Not to your birth mother, not to your adoptive family.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: You might have done that, but in the book, you wrote it to adoption itself.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: You said, hey, adoption, and you said many other things, but this stood out to me.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was born brokenhearted and expected to be whole.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, before we get back to the episode, I want to tell you about something.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know how we talk about on this podcast that healing happens relationally?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I built a space for that.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is called The Refuge, and it is a monthly community membership specifically built for adult adoptees.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Every month you would get a live call with me, access to one revolution teaching call as a guest.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: You also will have your own refuge portal that I'm calling Netflix for adoptees, and a community of people who actually get it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: No explanation required.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you have tried a lot of things and still feel stuck, this is not more of the same.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is a trauma-informed, somatic, adoptee-specific space led by someone who has lived it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's$47 a month or$423 for the year you get three months off with the annual membership.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is open now, and I will put a link in the show notes.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: What made you decide to address adoption directly, like a relationship, almost like a person?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So this was a writing assignment.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many of our listeners are familiar with Adoptive Voices with Sarah Easterly, Jennifer Dying Ghostin, Alice Stevens.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Love them.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was a part of one of the cohorts, and the assignment was to write a letter to adoption.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just what came out when I sat down and was like, we're just gonna write something.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what came out.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it kind of sounds like a relationship because that's what I heard.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I sat down and I was Jesus, I don't know what I'm gonna say.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just I wrote that in like 10 minutes.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's amazing.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So what did it feel like?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's okay.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: What did it feel like to write that letter?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: As you wrote it, did you notice anything come up in your body?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my body felt tense, my body felt uncomfortable, my body felt really, really warm.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I felt a lot of grief, I felt a lot of angst, and I was surprised.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would have told you that me and adoption are fantastic.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: We are the best of friends, there's nothing there, it's perfectly fine, it hasn't been a cakewalk, but hey, it's it's fantastic.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was reading it and I was like, I think I have a lot of unprocessed things that I should probably process.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it was this wake-up call to be going, wow, there's still a lot there that I'm not quite sure how to process that.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think one of the things that you do is you you encourage and invite those who are reading the book to do the same, to write their own letter to adoption.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all need to unpack that.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really, really beneficial exercise.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I love that.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think happens when adopted people finally get to tell the truth about adoption?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not the grateful version, not the polished version, but the honest one.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we know when truth is present, truth in the person, there's always freedom.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there, I believe that there's always a little bit of healing.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when adoptees are able to tell the truth, then they feel a little they experience freedom.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they might experience a little bit of healing.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Would you encourage other adoptees to write their own letter, like I just said?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: What would you want them to know before they do?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I don't know that I'd say you need to know anything, because I feel like the journey's the point.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what you write will be telling.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're going into it knowing you're writing about something, and what you write reveals what's there.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's just encouraging them to be brave, encouraging them to be extraordinarily curious.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because curiosity suspends judgment, and just set the time and write.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe if you have other adoptive friends or trusted people in your life, invite them to read it to them or have them read it and have a conversation.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'll take it deeper.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: It'll connect you.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's where vulnerability breeds connection anyway.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there are two places in the book where you name something that sits at the very center of the work that I do.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: In Mud Pies, you wrote, My mind had forgotten, but my body remembered well.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first one.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in day 16, rejected, you write, I have no memory of being given away.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yet my body and spirit have internalized the trauma of the separation and subsequent feelings of grief, loss, isolation, fear of rejection, and abandonment.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: No memory, and yet the body carries all of it.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about how grief and trauma can live in the body long after the mind loses conscious memory or before memory was ever even formed at all?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think with pre-verbal trauma, everything in utero, it can be imprinted, for lack of a better term, on our nervous system, on our bodies.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so though we don't have cognitive memory, we do have implicit memory.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about implicit and explicit memory.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think even with the white sheet you were talking about earlier, in like the experience of watching a placement occur.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I had no, I didn't have any cognitive memory of being adopted.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: But my body was very much reliving it because it was my implicit memory.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any explicit memory, but my body, it was stored in my physical body, and my sensations and my emotions were reliving what happened.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's actually what you just said is a good answer to the next question that I was going to ask you, which is basically which is so funny.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: You were just a baby, you can't remember, so it can't affect you.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about us actually consciously remembering.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's not even the point.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the point.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: If it happened, it it if it affects you.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think our lived experience, nobody can nobody should question our trauma, but so many do.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what is really important.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, what's going on with that facial expression?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all, if you're watching, she's got something going on here.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: I find I was really curious where you're gonna go with that because I feel like everybody questions trauma.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think some people have a narrative, a single narrative of what trauma, oh, you were adopted, this is what it looks like.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reminded of the TED Talk, The Danger of a Single Story, and just talking about how damaging that can be to have one expectation for, oh, this is your story, then this is what happened, and this is what it looks like.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was, yeah, it's just super cute.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, that could open up a ton of no, it really can't that we could.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we don't have time to go down all those.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I do know is that people question it, they have a hard time believing it.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember my mom, uh, when I was first really exploring all of this and realizing that it had impacted me, I said to her, Mom, I this isn't about you.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's about what I experienced before you, actually.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the one that raised me, sorry.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember her saying almost in defense, they told us you were a blank slate.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was, oh my gosh, they really actually said those words.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, Yes, Julie, they told us that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that I got chills all over my body.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Mom, that is clearly not true.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: That has been proven wrong, but no wonder you thought all the things that you did that I what I just said, that you were just a baby, you can't remember, it can't affect you.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it did.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I just found that really fascinating.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how does early pre-verbal rejection show up later in life?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And did you notice that it showed up for you?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: This early pre-verbal rejection.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I well, it was my self-protection strategy.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'd reject you before you could reject me.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was my greatest fear.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if I sensed it anywhere, or you might even be considering rejecting me, oh bye, bye.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was the same one.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it yeah, I didn't get close to people, I didn't trust people.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I could talk to strangers all day long.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: I could strange men.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: My mother was like, You could talk to strange older men all the time.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: You were great at that.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if it had any family, would not would not get close to you, would not talk to you, did not build healthy relationships, just was really, really challenged with healthy, secure attachment and trust.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Trust.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's big partly how it showed up.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even I think now there's moments when I when in dating world that there's moments that I'm afraid of it, it like it pops up.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I had dealt with fear of rejection or trust issues, or but yeah, it still appears.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Totally hear that.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think with all of this that we've just talked about, pre-verbal trauma, implicit memory, the nervous system holding what we can't actually communicate with words yet.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about somatically how our body holds it, I think the question is never what is wrong with me, although that's what we think.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: We think something's wrong with us.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's more what is happening in me.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to let the conversation go there because I think that's the heart of what we experience, but we are so afraid to go there and we are so disconnected from our body.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, I know you get this.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to say that out loud because I think it's important.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I say it all the time in the things that I post.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing's wrong with you.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be fixed.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what this is about.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're not broken.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: But yet we believe we are, and that's the whole point of pulling these out from the root and beginning to notice what's actually happening inside of me, within me.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So just wanted to say that out loud.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking actually, another answer to your question, I think one of the reasons I talk with my face is because my my didn't my voice wasn't trusted and I got in trouble a lot, and I was afraid of being rejected or punished because I said or did something.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I learned to internalize.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think with my face.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm the same way.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was my coping mechanism, is because I can think things and not get in trouble for them.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's no repercussions for what my face says in most situations.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, having being a aware of okay, what is going on?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is happening in me?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: So another thing that really stood out to me was you wrote that Jesus understands what it is to be adopted.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, the I want to read that um because it really stood out to me.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was amazing, actually, how you described it.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here it is.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I love about Jesus is that he understands what it is to be adopted.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: He gets it.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: He understands the messiness of adoption, family drama, and longing to be with his biological family.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus was born of God and nurtured by Mary and Joseph, his adopted dad.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think we need to state the obvious that that is the truth.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think in a lot of ways Jesus does understand adopted people.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Can you unpack that even more?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else you want to add?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think so many times we write Jesus off as he doesn't get it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that there's any life experiences that he doesn't understand or have experienced to some degree.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like those of you who've are experiencing the complexities and nuances of adoption, as we are, he understands you.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: He understands you.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what a lot of us are longing for is someone who just who understands.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's true.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Who really does understand, yeah.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we can have the conversation knowing that he understands.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to ask if he's safe.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: You might have to ask, do you feel safe with him?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: But he understands.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think yeah, I don't know that that I have much to add, but I'm I it's just knowing he he gets it.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, on a real lived experience level, he gets it.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: So how has your faith changed the way you understand adoption, belonging, longing?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: How has your faith shaped that?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yikes.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: How was my faith?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: My faith has really changed the way that I understand adoption, belonging, and longing because it's empowered me to reframe my experiences of rejection.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture says that we were chosen in him, in the Lord, before the foundation of the world, and that truth has been really, really healing for me.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: While my earthy experiences came with grief and loss and rejection and confusion and lots and lots of questions around my identity, faith has allowed me to reconcile parts of my story, reframe some of my expectations, and see God really redeems all things.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think faith has helped me believe and realize that even the painful parts of my story can still hold purpose, can still hold beauty.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't erase the hard things, it doesn't erase the hard experiences, but it gives it gives a new meaning to them.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think belonging is is huge.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And faith has changed the way that I understand belonging because I think growing up I didn't really understood belonging.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just I feel out of place.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I adapted behaviors, and I actually I created a list in third grade of 13 to 17 characteristics of the person that everybody needed, and I modified my behavior to fit that person to it.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I read about that.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about that in your book.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a reality for a lot of us, actually.
• 41:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: And Elena didn't have to be that.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord and I had a conversation about that list.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: He's let's talk about that list.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't create, he didn't love the list because it was created out of fear.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, Anita, I don't champion anything created out of fear.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's true things of who you are on this list, but it was birthed out of your need to prove, to perform, and it was birthed out of a thing of fear.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think faith has helped me learn that I was created for belonging.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't created for a need to belong, and that God loves, He loves family.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: He really, really, really, really, really loves family.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think longing has been the hard part because I don't know.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: My my experience has not been one where I have a deep longing for my biological family.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that I had some curiosity, a deep sense of curiosity, and wanting to understand where I came from, but not really questioning who I was, if that makes sense.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: But even I think faith helps me hold that curiosity without like shame or guilt or blame.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it taught me that I could have questions and still be really grounded in who I am and that my identity and belonging weren't depending on having answers, but on being known and loved by the Lord.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So what I wanted to know with all of that is I kind of wanted to switch gears because forgiveness is a big thing for you, and you talk about it a lot.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do you define forgiveness now?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, when I look throughout scripture, forgiveness is almost always the act of releasing debts against you.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's about releasing the bitterness and resentment, and it's choosing to not rehearse or retaliate against the other person and releasing the person into God's hands.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily saying what you did was okay.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's typically never a justification of whatever actions or behavior happened, or even a denial of wrongs, but it's it's a liberation for yourself.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the difference between Forgiveness and bypassing pain.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like forgiveness is releasing yourself from prison.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And bypassing pain is saying in prison, telling yourself you're not in a prison.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's denial.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or putting on a mask or pretending that the wound didn't happen, yet it's still gaping and bleeding.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's denial, that's avoidance.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And forgiveness isn't ever about denial or avoidance.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's acknowledging what happened and choosing making an intentional choice to release.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: But now here's the next question: Can forgiveness exist without honesty?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because no, true forgiveness cannot exist without honesty.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I am suffering from, I want to say heart palpitations because of unforgiveness, me saying I forgive you and my heart palpitations should, my heart palpitations should go away if I actually forgave you.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like making it that significant, but I feel like sometimes it is.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: We we are burying things in our bodies because we're choosing to not forgive, and we're saying, oh, I'm forgiving someone, but I'm still carrying in my body and in my life the wounds and the reality that this is still a thing that I haven't let go of.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: So no, true forgiveness.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: True forgiveness leads to freedom.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're actually gonna be if honesty is a part of it, then you have no, no.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think part of it is we have to be honest with ourselves.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say, for example, in my relationship with my ex-husband, okay, I'm gonna bring this up.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really about uh adoption, but the reason why I'm saying this is because I didn't have honesty from him.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I really did feel like I was able to forgive because I had to make peace with the fact that I may never get closure.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't have honesty from him, but I was very honest with myself.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: I knew my part, I knew what I had done, my own stuff.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: He just wasn't being honest with his.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's where I'm like, that's really interesting because I do feel like we need to be honest with ourselves for forgiveness.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if somebody else is not going to give us authenticity, there's nothing we can do about that.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: We still have to, for our own sake, let go, forgive to be able to move on.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see what I'm saying?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're you don't you don't forgive for the other person, nor can you forgive for the other person.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, being honest with yourself is the only thing you can do.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying the same thing.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, so a couple of last final things that I wanted to ask you.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do you feel like healing actually looks like in real life?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: What does healing look like in real life?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm always reminded of like conversations that I had that when we talk about healing in versus the miraculous, miraculous is an instantaneous supernatural event, and healing is a process, it's a journey.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think healing in terms of all of the things that we've talked about is is choosing one thing.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think the book goes through eight different topics, and the first topic is God and dealing and processing and inviting him along for the journey, but processing all of your thoughts and feelings about him and if you believe that you're good.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when it comes to wading in the waves and wading through all of these intricate, intrinsic, deeply nuanced experiences and topics, you have to say, okay, where do I want to start?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: What topic do I want to start with?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think when we talk about diving into these things, you have to first lay a framework for yourself because we talk about about safety.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of we won't engage in things if we don't feel safe.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think identifying what safety is for you, I think, and identifying who is a person or people that are gonna walk this out with you, I think would be where I would start.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not gonna give you a specific topic because I feel like you have to that's for you and the Lord to to choose.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's just it's starting.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's identifying, it's being honest with yourself about what are your needs, what does safety look like, who are the people that you're gonna journey this out with, allowing yourself to be accountable with them and being consistent.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, being committed to show up and be honest.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: Be honest and be present.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think those are the two things we we don't do enough, or we need to be more intentional about that.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be more intentional about being present and being honest in the ways we show up and how we show up with the people in our lives.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone feels afraid to step into the waves, if you will, where would you encourage them to begin?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Stepping into the waves.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would say begin with God.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what you say in the book.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I just was curious if you were just gonna repeat it.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what you believe about God impacts everything in your life.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just the little bit that I know of him and I know him, that he doesn't want you to start anywhere else.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he wants to be your starting place, and so I would I would invite you to start with him.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't know what that looks like, one of my favorite things to tell people to do is called two-way journaling.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so my caveat for this is if what you hear does not line up with what you know of the character and nature of Jesus, not in scripture or scripture, toss it.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you take basically a blank piece of paper or a notebook or journal and you write a question at the top to the Lord, to you can say, Holy Spirit, Jesus, Father God, pick any of the above, all of the above, pick one or not, and then you listen to a response and you write what you hear, and just start, just start a conversation.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I call that listening prayer.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you hope that adoptees will specifically take away from your book?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: My desire above any and everything else, it's 300 and some pages, is for you to invite God to be a part of your life.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: To be you invite God to be part of your entire life, to you to give your life to Jesus.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: But my hope for you is just if you don't do anything else, invite him, connect with him, engage with him.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Everything else is secondary.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Perf.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: So then my final thing is what does coming home to yourself mean to you personally?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Coming home to myself is really about integration with self and with God.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's being fully free to show up, not being fragmented, and learning to live loved and worthy from a place of being deeply known, held, and loved.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel that.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Anita, thank you so much for this conversation.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's something really grounding about the way that you talk about grief, about healing, about identity, and even belonging.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not as things to conquer, but as places that we slowly learn to meet ourselves and God, more honestly, within.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I keep coming back to a few moments from today.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was born brokenhearted and expected to be whole.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: My mind had forgotten, but my body remembered well.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are living as an orphan and called to be a daughter.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Change your clothes.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: So these things stand out to me because that's the journey, honestly, for so many of us.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: We came into this world carrying a separation we have no conscious memory of.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, our bodies do.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: The grief, the fear of rejection, the bracing, the orphan posture, always earning, always proving, always waiting to be sent away or afraid of that.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: And healing doesn't happen by pretending the waves aren't there.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: It happens when we stop running from them.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: When we allow ourselves to listen to what our grief, our bodies, our longing, our stories have been trying to tell us all along.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when we begin to loosen the meanings we carried about who we thought we had to be, I think slowly and gently we begin taking off the rags, our survival clothes.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: The orphan identity that once protected us but no longer fits who we are becoming.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening today and something stirred in you, maybe in your chest, maybe in your throat or your stomach, I just want to encourage you, you don't have to rush your healing.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: You do need to choose healing.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to rush it.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: You do not have to force yourself to get through those waves.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: You just wade slowly and be honest and trust that God is willing to meet you there.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if no one has said it yet to you today, you are not an orphan.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can get dressed.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can find Anita's book, Waiting in the Waves, on Amazon.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna go ahead and link it in the show notes.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, if something came up for you in this episode, you can DM me on any of the socials or schedule a conversation with me.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'll make sure that link is in the show notes.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to connect with you.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if this podcast has meant something to you, a five-star review or a few written words would go such a long way in helping this work reach more people, more adoptees and those who love them, more people who need to hear that they are not alone in this because you are not.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: You are never alone in this.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad you were here.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you, Anita, for being with us.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see you next week.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: Peace.