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SMNTY Classics: Women Candidates, Misinformation and Disinformation · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You production of Iheartradium, And today we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: are bringing back a classic that we did with Bridget
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: around politics and misinformation and disinformation. Because we are in
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: perpetual election season, it seems there's been a lot of
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: headlines recently about some AI generated photos that are misleading,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: outright lies in some cases. And then I got this today.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I got a message about this, and I think we
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: should come back into a whole episode about it. But
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: it was from an article called women are Getting Off
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: birth Control a mid misinformation explosion. It's from the Washington
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Post and I read it and I was very concerned
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: about it. It was all about like these lies that
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: women are being told about birth control that they're getting
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: from social media, largely things that are like it'll change
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: you're attracted to. It'll be somebody who's less traditionally masculine. Yeah, no, yep,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: horror of horrors. I don't even know what you I
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: know what you mean, but I'm like, really, I.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Mean, I feel like they're saying like the stereotype of masculine.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it'd be that what we see is like
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: them calling themselves alphas or just dicks exactly, and therefore
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: how I feel, and that has nothing to do with
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: birth well, it was kind of a birth control. I
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: don't want to have a baby with you.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Right right, That's that's about how I feel. But also
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: like honestly threatening women that they'll gain weight, which I
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: think is very toxic, that you should just be cycling,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: like timing yourmnstruation cycle for your brick control, which yea
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: science is that's not there. And surprise, surprise, there is
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a very conservative push behind this, which is terrifying because
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: everything that's going on with abortion, a lot of people
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: have been coming in saying like I've been doing this
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: that I've read on that I saw on social media.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Now I'm pregnant and I can't get an abortion, and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: the doctor's sort of like I also read this quote
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: from the article. To be anti fertility is to be
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: anti woman. So what when we like talking about our
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Comstock episode we recently did. They're putting the roots down
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: even harder now with this. They are really like trying
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: to set the stage for what they're going to do
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: into further making it difficult to get access to reproductive rights,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: to healthcare it is a bigger issue than I can
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: talk about. Obviously, I hope in a classic intro because
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: there's other pieces at play here for why it's exploding
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: right now. But all that being said, we are seeing
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: a huge wave of misinformation, so please keep that in mind.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I believe our listeners are very savvy. But it's just
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: worth saying because I've had two friends of mine tell
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: me a piece of news lately and I was like,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: that doesn't seem right, and then when we got.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: To the bottom of it, it was not. It was
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: not right, So can.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Happen to anybody? Please be aware, yes, But in the meantime,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Steffan Never Told your protection of iHeartRadio.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Today listeners.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: We are so excited we have such such a et
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: episode for you, and we have such a wonderful guest,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Bridget Todd, past host and host of There Are No
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, the podcast, which you should absolutely
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: check out, is here joining us today.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Hello, I'm so excited to be here hang out with
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: you guys during the quarantine.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, we're so excited to have you. And we're
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: also excited because this is the first of a regularly
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: occurring segment about women about the Internet. Would you like
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: to describe kind of what you're envisioning for this segment.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what I'm envisioning is, you know, I'm the kind
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: of person who is online all day, every day on Twitter,
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: looking at memes and all of that, and from all
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: of that time, useless time spent online stories about women,
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: about marginalized voices about you know, how we are showing
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: up online always occur, and so I thought the smintee
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: listenership might appreciate going into those rabbit holes with me
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: and talking about some of the ways that a our
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: stories show up or don't show up.
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: On the Internet.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the listeners know. I'm a big fan of
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: a good Internet rabbit hole. I like to spotlight a
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: rabbit hole today because you never know what you'll find.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: And I've been like racking my brains trying to think
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: of a clever name for this segment. So if you
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: have any ideas on that, Bridget or any listeners have
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: any ideas, just just I'm all ears. I love a
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: good title for things. Yeah, I want to I want
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: to throw much to the listeners.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: I bet listeners probably have some good some good ideas.
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: I hadn't thought about that though.
• 5:39
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we love good title alliteration is even better, So.
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: Alliteration can't be that yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And I keep saying segment, which isn't totally accurate. This
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: is like a series, and for today, as we are
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: in the United States, we're in this. It feels like
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: more season is not accurate to say, but that's what
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: most people call it. We're talking about disinformation and misinformation
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and election season and women and how all of that
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: interacts correct exactly.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was partly inspired by the episode that
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: y'all did on q Andon and women.
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: I think that we often assume.
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  Speaker 4: That when things happen online, you know, the deep ball
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: assumption is that the person online is a white male,
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  Speaker 4: and so as we know that is not true, we
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: often kind of leave out this very critical and growing
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: section of people who are having these important experiences online.
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: And so I was really happy to see that y'all
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: spotlighted women and QAnon and that very strange intersection there.
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: And yeah, it was just really inspired.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: By the work that y'all have been doing.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another interesting aspect too, because, as you say,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of the default assumptions are this internet user
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: is white male, and even when you think of QAnon,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: you think white male.
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: It is a.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Growing phenomenon that more and more women are becoming involved
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: in QAnon and being involved online in QAnon, which is, yeah,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: you're not hearing too much about that, but we really
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: should be looking into why that's going on exactly.
• 7:30
  Speaker 6: That's what we were talking about with the major candidate
• 7:33
  Speaker 6: that's running for the US House of Representative here in Georgia,
• 7:36
  Speaker 6: Marjorie Green, who is a QAnon advocate and has used
• 7:41
  Speaker 6: that as part of our platform and is winning and
• 7:44
  Speaker 6: is winning and is most likely going to be elected
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: because she's not being contested. The one man who was
• 7:50
  Speaker 6: contesting her in the Democratic Party dropped out because of
• 7:53
  Speaker 6: unknown threats. So that says a lot in itself. And
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: that's kind of one of the things that I love
• 7:59
  Speaker 6: that we're talking about this because not only are they
• 8:03
  Speaker 6: playing and I say they as a broader day of
• 8:05
  Speaker 6: QAnon and people of conspiracy theory, which originated as possibly
• 8:09
  Speaker 6: a joke to see what they can fish fish out
• 8:13
  Speaker 6: into this fear of motherhood and children and It's kind
• 8:17
  Speaker 6: of just opened up this huge world of oh my god,
• 8:21
  Speaker 6: what is happening and why are we being so misled
• 8:24
  Speaker 6: and why does it seem to be specifically targeting women
• 8:29
  Speaker 6: in this misinformation?
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's These are all great points.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: I think that you know, you brought up this connection
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: between like QAnon and like fear of motherhood. I think
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: that it really goes down to the fact that women
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: often are marginalized or not supported, They're not heard, and
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: so we have to take these issues that are very
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: real issues in our life to the Internet, and I
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: think that that can make us vulnerable in these like,
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: very specific ways. Combine that with the fact that people
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: assume that Internet users are all men.
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: The way the very specific.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: Ways that women are being targeted and are vulnerable for
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  Speaker 4: this kind of exploitation just go unexamined, untalked about. And
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  Speaker 4: I think there's also an assumption that quote unquote women's
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: spaces online, you know, uh, places like Pinterest or places
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  Speaker 4: like Facebook groups for moms or like anti vacs Facebook groups,
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  Speaker 4: things like that, there's this assumption that there's nothing worth
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: investigating going on in these groups. But we know that
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: this allows them to be hotbeds for disinformation and misinformation,
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: which is actually really harmful.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, And actually, before we get too deep into this conversation,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: would you mind explaining the difference between disinformation and misinformation.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's a question I get a lot. So misinformation
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: is misleading or incorrect information that leads to somebody being misled.
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: They might not actually have, you know, bad intent, or
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: they're not there may not they may not necessarily be
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: like spreading bad or inaccurate information on purpose, but they
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  Speaker 4: are leading somebody to be misled. Disinformation, on the other hand,
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  Speaker 4: is nefarious intentional spread of inaccurate information. And so a
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: good way that you can think about it is misinformation
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  Speaker 4: is misleading. Disinformation is a damn lie. Right, This is
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: like someone is lying to you on purpose to cause
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: some kind of problem.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've seen a lot of that unfortunately during
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: this election cycle. And also it's been interesting seeing kind
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: of social media companies struggling to deal with this and
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: hearing a lot about that in the news of you know,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: flagging this tweet is false or whatever. What in your
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: experience as someone who is on the internet a lot,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: what kind of disinformation strategies are you seeing?
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: So many.
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  Speaker 4: Right, So a big one that people are probably kind
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: of familiar with is people will impersonate, marginalize people, oftentimes
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: black women, to just honestly so discord and confusion. Right,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: So that's one when it comes to women candidates really
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: playing into biases, so you know, spreading falsehoods about women
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: candidates being you know, shrill or unstrustworthy or incompetent. We
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: know these things are not grounded in fact, but these
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: are messages that really take off on social media and
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: I can really have a lot of a lot of
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: a big impact. Things like cheap fakes. You know, we
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: people are pretty familiar with deep fakes, these videos that
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: are you know, not real or manipulated in some way,
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: but we also have cheap fakes where a video is
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: taken out of context and spread on social media, you know,
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: saying as if like, oh so and so has said
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: this thing, but actually it's a it's an out of
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: context snippets that's a cheap fake.
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  Speaker 5: But all of these different ways that are.
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: Really meant to create confusion in voters and really meant
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: to have people, particularly women and people of color, just think, well,
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: the system is rigged, The system is so confusing.
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: It's so chaotic.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: That I'm just going to check out of the democratic
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: process altogether. It's not worth it, right, Yeah, And you know.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about on this show those words
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: that you kind of use that we see leveled at
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: female politicians, and how ambition is like my favorite one,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: where like a man being ambitious is great, but a
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: woman being ambitious Wait a minute now, And then I
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: remember the episode you and I did bridget where about
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: reporters in India getting slutshamed and just like waking up
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: to an inbox full of these very disturbing images of
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: your face on some other woman's body and some like
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: horrific act like violence being perpetrated against you, and sharing
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: those images with your family, with the world, with everybody,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: And just how like even me thinking about that that
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: makes my just tense up, Like that's it's so awful.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: And I was just wondering if you could speak to
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: sort of this gendered attack and gendered disinformation.
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: There was actually a recent study by Lucina di Meco,
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: who is a senior expert and advocate and a writer
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: on women's leadership in gender equality. The study is called
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: She Persisted and it really shows the ways that disinformation
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: is so gendered, and so that's one of the reasons
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: why it's so important to.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: Talk about it through this lens.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: You know, social media can really be a double edged
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: sword for women in politics. On the one hand, it
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: really allows women to have this platform to cut through
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: chatter and have direct communication with the public, but also
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: that is where we get these incredibly biased, gendered, sexist attacks.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: So the thing that you talked about with the journalist
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: in India, sensitive images, whether they're like sometimes doctored, sometimes
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: not real, that is a common occurrence for women running
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: for office or women in politics in general. And I
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: would even take it a step further and say women
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: in public, women who speak their mind or have an
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: opinion in public, right, Like, there is nothing people love
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: to pile on more than a woman who has an
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: opinion in public. And oftentimes the way that these attacks
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: are framed are very gendered. You know, research actually shows
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: that men, even men of color, when compared to their
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: female colleagues of color, don't get the same kind of attacks, right,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: And so they're highly racialized and highly gendered.
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: And I think it's really interesting when we talk about
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: women of color being really ridiculed when we look at
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: Kamala Harris and her even debate style, the fact that
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: the matter was that she was holding back, but even
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: with our holding back and making a few faces still
• 15:03
  Speaker 6: made her a target as being overly disingenuous, untrustworthy, and
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: according to Trump, a monster. Like with that, how do
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: we actually talk about this kind of level of misogyny
• 15:16
  Speaker 6: slash racism, especially when we're in this type of debate,
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: especially in this type of election, Well, how do we
• 15:22
  Speaker 6: address it? How do we make sure we call it
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: out as we see it?
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: One of the organizations I work with, Ultraviolet, actually created
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: a media guide.
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: You can find it if you.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: Just google Ultraviolet Media Guide. I'm sure you can find
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: it to help us spot and talk about these incredibly racialized,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: gendered attacks on not just Kamala Harris, all women of color. Right,
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: they could often be very subtle, things like calling Kamala
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: Harris quote aggressive.
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: We know that's a dog whistle for.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Black women who speak their mind are very assertive in
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: their speech style. So sometimes they can be really subtle.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: Sometimes they can be really obvious, right, like Trump calling
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Kamala Harris a monster, you know, after her debate style,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: we know that these are just you know, especially when
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: you think about Trump, he has a pattern of lashing
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: out at black women when he feels attacked, and so
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: this is nothing new from him. But I also think
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: the media really plays a role in shaping how we
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: talk about and think about these kinds of sexist, gendered attacks.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: And so one of the things that we've really been
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: working on with Ultra Violet is trying to have a
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: little bit of a media accountability and say, you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: if Trump says something that is a racist, sexist attack
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: on a black woman in politics, don't put don't repeat
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: that in the headline so that it goes all over
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: social Because evidence shows that the more people see something,
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: even if it's not true, they believe it. And so
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: if Trump perpetuates a racist, sexist attack on a black woman,
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: if a news article puts that attack in the headline
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: and it just goes all over social media, people will
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: start to believe that, right, even if we all know
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: it's to be as And so really making sure that
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: we understand and know how to spot these attacks and
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: that we're able to hold the media accountable when they
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: you know, unwittingly perhaps, you know, perpetuate it.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I know last time you were here,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: you spoke about how in twenty sixteen there were these
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Russian actors. There was a Senate inquiry that found that
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: these Russian actors were behind a lot of disinformation attacks
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: that were specifically targeting black people to keep them from
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: voting in twenty sixteen. And is that our foreign countries
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: normally behind disinformation.
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: That's a great question.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: So in that case in twenty sixteen, you know, the
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: Senate inquiry did ton affirm that these were likely Russian assets.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: But I almost find that focusing on foreign entities and
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: foreign and bad actors makes us let our guard down
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: for the reality, which is that a lot of these
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: tax and campaigns are actually domestic. They're you know, homegrown
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: attacks on women and people of color. And so I
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: think it's really important that we say, like, yes, we
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: have documented evidence that these things happen in twenty sixteen,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: but also in twenty twenty. It's not just foreign actors,
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: it's people right here in the United States who are
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: trying to sow chaos and distrust, right.
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: And I noticed the surge of accounts coming up with
• 18:29
  Speaker 6: stock photos of black men or black people who are
• 18:33
  Speaker 6: saying and it's all the same tweet essentially saying that
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: they were no longer going to be voting for Democrats
• 18:38
  Speaker 6: because they no a long with trust the system and
• 18:40
  Speaker 6: now are going to be Republicans and have for the
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: first time, you know, voted as a Republican.
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: What is this surge?
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: And is this kind of like the lazier form of
• 18:48
  Speaker 6: the buye because it's obvious stock photos when you start
• 18:51
  Speaker 6: like looking at it, but then it's kind of like, wait,
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: why even put that effort?
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's almost kind of funny when you
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: look at it. I actually did an episode with this woman,
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Shapeka Hudson, who you know, she started the hashtag your
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: slip is showing to call out some of these fake
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: accounts posing as black people. And what's funny is that
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: when you actually at first glance, you're like, oh, this
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: is a suspiciously good looking black person who is leaving
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: the Democratic Party after years, okay, But then when you
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: actually keep looking, you think like, oh, well, this the
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: way that he's phrased this sounds like this other tweet
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: I saw, or oh the way that he's using you know,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: he's he the way that he's using like African American
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: vernacular English just seems a little bit off. Honestly, if
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: you dig into them and like look at them enough,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: I think that they have these little tells.
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: But yeah, I.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: Think, you know, creating this impression that there is a
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: mass exodus of black people from the Democratic Party by
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: using these fake accounts. I could see how it would,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: you know, just be so confusing and like, I mean,
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: he's like, you see these tweets and you're like, what's
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: going on?
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: I could like the ultimate goal.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Was to get people to just be like, the political
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: process doesn't make sense to me. It's so confusing. I'm
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: not even going to be involved. And I can see
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: how that would actually, you know, lead to that. What's
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: funny is that in twenty sixteen, somebody sent me a
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: link to a Twitter account that used my picture from LinkedIn,
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: like an old headshot, and this person was saying all
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: of these very strange things about Hillary Clinton, and you know,
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I flagged the account and it was taken down, But
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: I never quite figured.
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: Out what was going on. It just was a very
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: weird situation.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: And this was way before we knew or I knew
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: any of this, and you know, I never.
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: I was just like, what is this?
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: Who would who would take my LinkedIn picture, make go
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: through the trouble of making a Twitter account and then
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: have these like incredibly like I don't know how to
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: put it, but incredibly fake bad like obviously not.
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: A non black person trying to pretend to.
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: Be a black woman kind of tweets like who would
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: do this?
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: Now? I know?
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: Well?
• 21:07
  Speaker 6: And on top of that, as we were reading, we
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: know Canice Owens, who has been a big proponent for
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: Trump talking about black people for Trump, she actually created
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: a blexit event Like that feels like a whole new
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: level of trolling. And on top of that, admitting like
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: allegedly paying a few of the attendees to even.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Come to this event.
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, what kind of level is this? And
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: I have to say, you know, I live in Washington,
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: d C.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: This happened, and this event happened at the White House.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: I was so sam I like all the things you
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: just said, yes, yes, yes, But also I was so
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: curious when that event was happening because I'm thinking, you know,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: there's still a pandemic. You have a group of black
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: people who are you know disproportionately impacted by COVID you
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: group'im on the White House lawn?
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: Who knows? Max? Who knows? Right?
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: Who knows?
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: I was furious to see that, literally imber thinking from
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: what I understand, people got there lodging and.
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: Meals paid for by attending the event.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: The idea of these people being like unleashed on my
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: city and going into restaurants.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: I was furious, furious.
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: As you should be because that's irritating as well. But
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: speaking of canus Owens, I didn't want to kind of
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: talk about her whole play because it again coming back
• 22:25
  Speaker 6: to Kamala Harris and just anyone in person of color
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: in general coming out attacking Kamala for not being black enough,
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: not being Indian enough, not being able to qualify as
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: this type of person and able to speak and say yes,
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: I am a person who is making kind of headway
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: and trying to be in leadership. Why do you think
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: that this type of rhetoric is not only harmful but
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: can work in some cases in deterring people to vote
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: for her.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: Well, I think that we just really don't understand how
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: to talk about race and ethnicity and our heritages. I
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: really don't like Candice Owen, but you know, she tweeted,
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: I am so excited that they get to watch Kamala Harris,
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: who swore into Congress as a quote Indian American, now
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: plays a black woman card all the way to November, right,
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: Like I have to say, if you were someone who
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: was hell bent on misrepresenting people's identity to weaponize it
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: against them, that's effective, right, And so.
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: I think that she really I think that people.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Like Owen really play into the fact that people don't understand,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: you know, people's identities in this country. The idea that
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: Kamala Harris, you know, her identity can contain multiple things.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: That's how identities work. We don't have a lot of
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: I think that people don't really necessarily understand how to
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: talk about that, and so it leaves the issue very
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: vulnerable to be exploited by people who you know, want
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: to weaponize someone's actually like someone's identity, like who they are.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Kamala Harris has been even before she was in the
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: national spotlight, has been so clear about the ways her
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: Indian American heritage and her you know, African American heritage
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: have really made her the person that she is, you know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: grounded her in her identity, and that's so beautiful and
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: so rich, and honestly, it's such an expression of I
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: would say, the platonic ideal of America, that someone could
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: have different identities and those identities could enrich them and
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: become part of who they are and their legacy. To
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: tear that down and then try to reframe that to
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: weaponize it against somebody I think is so like vile,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: but unfortunately it's effective.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And speaking of Kamala Harris, I know that when
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, forever ago, we saw these attacks on Hillary Clinton.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I remember being, oh my gosh, back.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: When you could go out and do things.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I was at a rally and somebody had a sign
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: for Hillary Clinton and this was a college in Atlanta.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: That said like go back to the kitchen.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: So how would you say, like the difference, what differences
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: do you see in these attacks on Hillary Clinton and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the attacks on Kamala Harris.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, you know, I remember those attacks
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: on Senator Clinton.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: You know, oh gosh, I mean it seems like forever.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: Ago now, but you know, so many gendered attacks, like
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: do you remember when she had pneumonia and people acted
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: like she was, you know, one foot in the grade
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: that store.
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, she needed to quit, immediately, quit campaigning, quit everything
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: because she was about.
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: To die exactly. I mean, yeah, people, it's just so simple.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: People just don't like women, right, And so definitely she
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: we all saw it. She had these incredibly gendered attacks
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: on her character. But I think when it comes to
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: you know, Kamala Harris, I think whenever you occupy intersecting identity,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: So if you're a woman and you're also black or
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: you know, whatever intersection intersecting identities you have, that always
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: makes attacks more salient, right, because people are exploiting your
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: identity to create this sort of layered attack. And so
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: she's not just being attacked because she's a person of color.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: She's not just being attacked because she's a woman. She's
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: being attacked because she's a woman of color. And it
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: has the added problem of the fact that if we
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: don't really know how to talk about race, and so
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: these attacks often go overlooked. It's almost kind of like
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: a gas lighting, right that she could be the recipient
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: of these gendered, racist attacks. But that because we don't
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: know how to talk about race, we would pretend that
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: they're not happening right when we're not talking about them.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: And so I think that that it's always going to
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: be you know, it's hard for women, but I think
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: that for women of color it will always be disproportionately
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: more difficult.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I it's strange because twenty sixteen does feel
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: so long ago, but it also feels like the specter
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: that's just like hanging over and it's I've seen arguments
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: still to this day of people being so hurt and
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: understandably so from that election. And that was, at least
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: in my case, one of the first instances I got.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I was familiar with disinformation, and especially on online social media.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: As we are.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Entering twenty twenty, the people are voting now I voted,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: what strategies?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: How do you think it will be different?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: How do you think disinformation will be different in twenty
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: twenty or what what do you think what do you
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: expect is going to happen in the realm of disinformation
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: and this twenty twenty election?
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: And can I add to this too, because now we're
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: also seeing not only disinformation from outside people, we're seeing
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: it directly from the source of our president at this
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: point in time, that he's retweeting things in disinformation, real
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: disinformation that are harmful to many people out there, and
• 28:09
  Speaker 6: we see that as contant. He's getting on the damn
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: phone with people and going off rants with disinformation that
• 28:15
  Speaker 6: is being heard by instead of social media just being
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: by the forties fifty year old boomers, like the senior citizens,
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: who may truly believe what he is saying and ranting about.
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: Can you talk about that as well, and how that
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: is affecting this year's election as opposed to what it
• 28:28
  Speaker 6: was before.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Sam, your point is so accurate. With
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Trump in the White House, it is like a disinformation
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: super spreader of like event every day. You know, there
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: was just a study I can't remember the exact study,
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: but I can find it that said that Trump is
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: the number one spreader of COVID disinformation and misinformation, right,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: And so think about that something that could impact someone's health,
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: something that in like physically harm communities. He is the
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: number one person who is spreading it, right, things about
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: false cures, things about you know, like when he when
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: he talked about how like like just in like completely incorrect,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: harmful information. And so I think what's different this year
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: is that we do have someone who is has proven
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: time and time and time again that he is not
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: above spreading disinformation and misinformation, no matter how harmful it is.
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: And so I think that is a real difference.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: You know, one of the things I've seen in my
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: research on disinformation is the way that when Trump tweets something,
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: it can get picked up on so quickly and spread
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: so fast, right, And so I think that's a real
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: difference that we are going to have to contend with
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, that we have someone who is so
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: powerful and has such a huge megaphone and has so
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: many people's ears, like you said, you know, spreading this
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: information that could really get somebody hurt and really impacts
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: our democracy. I think I would say another thing that
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: we are seeing a lot of in twenty twenty that
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: I think has gotten worse is bad actors' willingness to
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: exploit existing fractures in our communities. And so, you know,
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: I did an episode of my show There Are No
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Girls on the Internet about Vanessa Yinn, the soldier who
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: was killed, and you know that was during that happened
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: during earlier in the summer, when we had all of
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: these uprisings for you know, black lives, folks like Breonna
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: Taylor and George Floyd. And we saw bad actors online
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: putting these messages on huge Facebook pages with lots and
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: lots and lots of reach, saying things like why should
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: the LATINX community support the Black community when quote they
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: killed one of.
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: Our own, right, And so everybody knows that.
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: Marginalized communities are stronger when we work together, but it's
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: very savvy how they exploit these existing fractures in communities
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: to continue to cause chaos and spread confusion, right. And
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: so I think that in twenty twenty, we've seen a
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: lot more willingness.
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: Of bad actors to exploit really.
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: Sensitive topics, topics that take nuance or thoughtfulness to discuss publicly,
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: and just collapsing them into you know, us against.
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: Them, or this is why we shouldn't vote.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: Democrat, or these things that divide us instead of unite
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: us because we're so much stronger when we're united.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: We have some more for you listeners, but first we
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: have a quick break for word from our sponsor, and
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: we're back.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you sponsored.
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: As you're talking about the issue with the one marginalized
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: group up pitted against another in order to break down
• 31:54
  Speaker 6: and divide of I've just recently read an article talking
• 31:57
  Speaker 6: about how men in the Latino community are there's a
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: big chunk of them that are voting for Trump because
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: the appeal of his matismo, as they say, is like
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: that the manliness of his appeal has actually spoken to
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: this group of people. And I find that very interesting
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: because we see that played time and time again as
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: where he's exploited that I'm a man's man in order
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: to get these votes and get this louder vote, and
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: even to the point that we have groups that are
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: talking about make women great again.
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: Have you seen this?
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: No, So it's this whole campaign where they are there's
• 32:32
  Speaker 6: a group of men, right wing men who are going
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: around trying to take money for women to come to
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: conventions to be taught to be womanly, feminine and back
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: into the original role of what women should be.
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: But it's kind of they've taken.
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: This huge art on being who they are and playing
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: on it because of this new found need to have
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: this conversation about we need to be more manly but
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: community and Trump is getting us to be mainly again.
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: Have you seen this as a part of like a
• 33:01
  Speaker 6: push in this disinformation. Is this manly machismo kind of rhetoric.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Oh, first of all, I just have to I have
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: to ask, like, what the hell kind of things do
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: you think they're teaching women in these trainings?
• 33:15
  Speaker 6: Like I oh, oh my gosh, I think it's like
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: how much money was like ten thousand dollars. It was
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: at their Florida convention, ten thousand dollars, and then they
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: gave this march huge marked down price and it's just
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: like ten men talking to women about being feminine.
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: Oh my god.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: If I if I could like wear like dress up
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: in some sort of disguise.
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: And go to one of these with like a camera,
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, look out.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: It's such a good question, though, I think that, you know,
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: you make such a good point. I think that it
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: really comes down to Trump's willingness and effectiveness at exploiting
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: these biases that exist in our society, so biases around women,
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: misconceptions of like what it is to be like.
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: A manly man or a womanly woman. You know.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: I think that Trump is very effective at exploiting these things.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: And the reason why they work is because these old
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: these old school stereotypical notions of what it means to
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: be a woman, what it means to be a man,
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: all of these sort of traditional ideas.
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: They have been baked into our society for so long.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: I mean you you all do such a good job
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: of breaking them down every week.
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: We know that these things have staying power, and that's
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: why they're so effective for people at Trump and these
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: this group of whoever who is who was like charging
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars also talk about that price point that
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: is a lot of money.
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: That might be over exaggerating, but it was a lot
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: of money, and I was like, who the hell is
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: going to pay this?
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: What? I know?
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: I'm so curious. I would love to get a syllabus
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: for this.
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: Court web page and it's yeah, it's incredible. But yeah,
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: there's also this whole level of him coming after suburban wives.
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: Literally at the recent rally, he is begging suburban women,
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: please vote for me, please like me. I'm trying to
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: make your community safe again.
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: I think it really just goes back to his willingness
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: to try to exploit these very traditional ideas of.
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: What women want.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to sit here and say that I
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: think that Trump has any kind of a good read
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: on what women want. But I think it's like his
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: him trying to him, assuming that he does, and trying
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: to trying to exploit that.
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: It really makes me think about how in earlier waves
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: of the alt right and things like that, organizing online,
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: all the ways that they were kind of appealing to
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: manly men who were sick of these like soy boy,
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: betas right it really it really, I mean gender the
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: jet like gender norms are our mother fer That's all
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: I can say, right, it really, really we are so
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: our society is it's so bake into our society in
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: these toxic, harmful ways that watching them play out on
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: you know, the election stage or in politics or online
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: in these ways, it's just so it's just truly so bizarre.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: On top of that, as we're sitting here talking about it,
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: I have kind of named off every person that he's
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: been begging to notice him, whether it's using token black
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: people in order to get them into line and not
• 36:23
  Speaker 6: doing the blexit, or appealing to suburban women. But the
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: one group of people that he's really not talked to
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: or actually even notice are typically marginalized women women of color,
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: specifically black women.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: Oh of course, right, if you look at the numbers
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: of black women who voted for Trump, we knew better.
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: Like black women were not falling for it, you know,
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: and I mean they always It's almost like a cliche
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: at this point when we talk about politics, like listen
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: to black women, black women do we do know what's up?
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: But like whatever he was selling, we were not buying.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: We see him attack black women, our sisters, like Kamala Harris,
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: like White House correspondent, you, michelsondor, you know, like April Ryan.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: We see him attack our sisters every day. There's just
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: we're not We're not We're not going to do it.
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: Like there's nothing We're not buying what he's selling.
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: No.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: It is funny that it's like he's he's he realizes
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: like I'm not gonna win with them.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: It may I may as well just cut my losses.
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: You really, he's like literally just like throws his hands up,
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: like never mind.
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: Next.
• 37:24
  Speaker 6: It's really interesting when you really focus on his his
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: goals and you're.
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: Like, oh, we see who you're afraid of exactly.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I do want to add in here too.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: One idea I was reading about this a couple of
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And it's just really stuck with me.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Is if you look at the here in the United States,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, there's almost been
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: a masculinization and a feminization of like masculinization of the
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Republican Party, feminization of the Democratic Party, and just seeing
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: that play out, and and the Republican Party really really
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: leaning into that because in our society, masculine is better, Right,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: be aggressive, be rude, tell women that they belong in
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the kitchen or whatever whatever, because you're speaking your mind,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and that's okay. But that is something that I've been
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: thinking about a lot, and I feel like I am witnessing.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, just look at the way that they
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: talked about masks at the debate between Trump and Biden, Right,
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: Biden wore a mask his people he was with war masks.
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: I think it was a Republican commentator Tommy laren or
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: I don't know if that's her name, however you say it,
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: who tweeted something around along the lines of nice mask,
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Biden may as well carry a purse what?
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: And this was after Trump and them tested positive.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: Right, Like, do do some of these Republicans think that
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: you can be manlier than a virus, like you can
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: be you can sort of out masculine a contagion. What
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: do they think this this this equation with people on
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: the left with like feminization. So if you are wearing
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: a mask because you want to protect you and your
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: and your the people around you, that's you know, you
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: may as well be carrying a purse, right, you know
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: this idea that being I mean, they've they've even shown
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: that one of the big problems when it comes to
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: COVID is that men don't feel manly when they wear
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: a mask, so they don't And just think about how
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: how how sick that is, how how toxic that traditional
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: gender roles?
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: When when when, when like taken to.
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: This level, how harmful it is that people are willing
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: to get sick and make others sick just to conform
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: to these rigid ideas of gender. Is it really is
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: so sad, like gender is a hell of a drug.
• 39:45
  Speaker 6: Really, I mean, it really is kind of funny because
• 39:47
  Speaker 6: they did make this a masculine thing, to the point
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: that when Trump was sick and came back, they were like,
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: he beat it, He's a real man.
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: He out did this and he's.
• 39:56
  Speaker 6: Too strong for that, like literally putting on these things
• 39:59
  Speaker 6: as of he fought in a wrestling match and beat
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: a world champion, like it was that level.
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: And that's what people were pushing.
• 40:07
  Speaker 6: Even to the point that he's talking about being immune
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: and of course spreading more disinformation, causing this whole conversation
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: about wanting to kiss people, which is a whole different
• 40:15
  Speaker 6: weirdness that I was like, what is happening? But all
• 40:20
  Speaker 6: of that to say is like it has become this
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: fine line. And it started at the very beginning of
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: the virus, like at the very beginning when they're like
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: this could be preventative, let's try this, it became a
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: a is a female versus male thing, it's a feminine
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: versus a masculine thing. And it's played even deeper as
• 40:37
  Speaker 6: more and more, over two hundred and what fifteen thousand
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: people have died in our country and it's kind of like,
• 40:43
  Speaker 6: what is happening in this point as well as the
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: fact that the majority of people who are really affected
• 40:49
  Speaker 6: is the black community, is the elderly community, are those
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: with morbidities, and why are we seeing that as a week?
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up. I hate
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: that so much. I think that there's so much wrong
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: with this equating. You know.
• 41:05
  Speaker 5: So if you follow that logic.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: That Trump is strong because he was able to quote
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: unquote beat COVID, you know, so whatever you know, does
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: that mean that the over two hundred thousand people that
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: we have lost were week And I also think it
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: really plays into this ablest trope around sickness, around healthy bodies.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: You know, I really I hate the way that we
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: talk about it. I truly do. And I think we
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: saw it at the beginning of the pandemic when the
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: party line or the standard line was only the sick
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: and weak will die, and there was this sort of
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: implication of you know, A, they're expendable and B there
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: was a sort of unsaid vibe at least that I
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: felt like I saw where it's like, wouldn't we be
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: better off without them anyway?
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: You know? And I just think that like it really.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: Played into these incredibly disturbing ablest tropes around you know,
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: whose lives are valuable and whose aren't, and who's are
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: expendable and who's aren't. Just because you're somebody who is
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: older or somebody who is you know, chronically ill.
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: Your life matters. You deserve to live a fulfilling.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: And enriching life. You're not expendable in society. People talking
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: about like their grandparents. Just because your your grandparent is
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: elderly doesn't mean that they can just.
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: Die and it's fine.
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: I really, I really have a big problem with the
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: way that the way that that was framed early on,
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: and certainly the way that Trump talking about COVID as
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: you beat it like as if it was a wrestling match,
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: the way that that kind of played into it, I.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: Really really hate it.
• 42:43
  Speaker 6: Right, and then again him counting this whole herd immunity,
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: which the World Health Organization just was like, police, this
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: is unethical and immoral to play pretend like this is okay,
• 42:54
  Speaker 6: because what you're saying in the herd immunity mentality is
• 42:57
  Speaker 6: people should die and they'll be okay. That literally giving
• 43:00
  Speaker 6: permission to kill off people because they're not quote unquote
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: strong enough when in actuality, we don't know who is
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: affected exactly why. I mean, we obviously know that some
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: of the people who have been affected, with not some
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: a lot of people who have been affected have com
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: abilities and have died. Doesn't mean they should have died,
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: doesn't mean they would have been dead without that. This
• 43:19
  Speaker 6: is kind of the argument that I've had to have
• 43:21
  Speaker 6: with people. I'm like, yeah, but tell me this, because
• 43:23
  Speaker 6: the same argument that was like, well, everybody's dying of
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: COVID nowadays, even if it's not COVID, they're just putting
• 43:29
  Speaker 6: it on death certificate. So I'm like, but tell me this.
• 43:31
  Speaker 6: If it wasn't for COVID, would they be alive right now? Well, yeah, okay, then,
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: oh my god. It's this whole mentality.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: Bless you for entertaining these conversations and trying to inform
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: the masses a loss of.
• 43:46
  Speaker 6: My family, to be honest, But anyway, uh yeah, that's
• 43:52
  Speaker 6: just such a whole big thing. But it kind of
• 43:54
  Speaker 6: comes down to once again this whole like masculine versus
• 43:58
  Speaker 6: feminine point of view and why we continue to have
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: to have a fight about what's wrong and what's right,
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: and we know, let's talk about the current Supreme Court
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: hearing in confirmation is the fact that there is a
• 44:10
  Speaker 6: lot at stake, especially for marginalized people, most likely for
• 44:15
  Speaker 6: mar Yeah, absolutely, can we talk about this whole like
• 44:20
  Speaker 6: they're trying to make her a hero because she is
• 44:23
  Speaker 6: a mom who has adopted black children, which I want
• 44:27
  Speaker 6: to vomit, but just go ahead and add that there
• 44:29
  Speaker 6: be because that's nothing more infuriating than tokenizing children because
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: the family may have done something that is just fine
• 44:37
  Speaker 6: and responsible, and it is that something you're called to
• 44:39
  Speaker 6: do and if you find yourself in a good place
• 44:41
  Speaker 6: that you can adopt these wonderful children that need Holmes
• 44:44
  Speaker 6: was great, But we also know that a lot of
• 44:46
  Speaker 6: times this comes with white savior complex, which has a
• 44:49
  Speaker 6: lot of implications and a lot of trauma behind this.
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: And now we're seeing it played as her plant being
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: the hero and they're touting her.
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: As a new RBG.
• 45:00
  Speaker 6: Can we talk about how social media is kind of
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: helping in this rhetoric.
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's funny that you say this.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: So my in one of my day jobs, I'm working
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: with feminist groups and women's groups to you know, track
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: this and you know, keep an eye on how messages
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: about her are being framed online. And you're exactly right
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: that she is being framed as this feminist hero. And listen,
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: Sam to your point about the way that she has
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: been framed as a hero for adopting black children. I mean,
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: just one proximity to blackness does not make someone anti racist.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: So being so saying like I have an adopted black daughter,
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: I have a black you know spouse, I have black friends.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: Obviously that doesn't make somebody anti racist. And two, what
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: really makes me sad is that that thinking, the thinking
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: that she is a hero for adopting black children, it
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: really just it really leaves out the adopted kids.
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: I just really hate the way that when we have
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: these conversations, they often cent her, the white person who
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: adopts did children you know, their story, you know, as
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: a hero, or their story as someone who you know,
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: did this great thing, And it really just leads doesn't
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: leave a lot of room for the agency of the kids.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: And I think that like most people who I know
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: who have adopted children for them, they say, you know, oh,
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: don't tell me that my kids are so lucky that
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: I adopted them. We are the lucky ones that we
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: adopted our kids. And I think that most people who
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: have adopted kids really want to center their kids and
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: not make it seem like they's some kind of a
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: hero for what.
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: They did, right. I think it's fun.
• 46:35
  Speaker 6: I found it interesting because one of the first things
• 46:38
  Speaker 6: I saw about her was of course a misleading post.
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: Not misleading, it was misleading because they posted a picture
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: of her sister instead of her and their black children,
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: which I.
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: Hilarious, just walk about.
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: You can't even find their like hell family, I mean,
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: come on, But that's the first thing they wanted to
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: tell was well, obviously she can't be racist because she
• 47:00
  Speaker 6: has two children. Obviously she uh is anti choice because
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: she believes an adoption. And of course I am adopted
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: as well, And I get told that often to my face,
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: that I should be anti choice because I was, you know, saved,
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: because I wasn't aborted, And I'm like, well, no, there's
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: a whole lot of other complications to that story, and
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: we won't we won't go there. But being told that
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: you should be grateful and having these things, but honestly
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: putting this on a platform and making her the idealist.
• 47:28
  Speaker 6: But we know that, uh, the white couple that actually
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: drove the children off the cliff and killed themselves and
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: the children with them. We see things like that which
• 47:37
  Speaker 6: doesn't always happen. I talked about a family recently who
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: are YouTube families, adopted an Asian child who was autistic
• 47:43
  Speaker 6: and then gave them away.
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: I remember that. I remember that.
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: And what's what's a lot about that story is that
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: when they were trying to adopt their child, Hutsley, they
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: gave him a new name, but they chose was Huxley.
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: They were before that, they were on message boards asking
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: people were looking to adopt someone from another country who
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: has disabilities, but as they put it, like disabilities that
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: are easier to manage, you know, like they were it
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: seemed as if they were trying to gear upon Yeah,
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: they were hand picking.
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: You know, their child for what.
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: It seems like we want to get, we want to
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: get the attention that comes with this, but we don't
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: want it to be that hard. Like I really that story.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: Not to go off on a tangent, but that story
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: just broke my heart. It really broke my heart. When
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: people say things like this to your face about how
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: you must feel about abortion because you're someone who was adopted.
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: What like what is that like? Like, what is your response?
• 48:37
  Speaker 6: Oh girl, this is a whole big conversation. But a
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: lot of I mean a lot of this has to
• 48:44
  Speaker 6: do with the anxiety of being having an imposter syndrome
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: and being told this is about what I should feel
• 48:49
  Speaker 6: and when I am against it or what I don't
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: feel that way, having to backtrack and explain myself even
• 48:54
  Speaker 6: more because I feel like I have to justify something
• 48:57
  Speaker 6: that shouldn't have to be automatically justified. That makes sense, Yeah,
• 49:01
  Speaker 6: and so yeah, it's this is a whole narrative that's
• 49:04
  Speaker 6: placed on me that I'm like, grew up with saying yes,
• 49:07
  Speaker 6: I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful, don't say anything bad,
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: don't say anything bad, and then waking up as an
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: adult be like that sucked. Some of these things are
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: really bad and having to acknowledge that. And that's kind
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: of the thing. Is like when you sit here in
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: the background and she's not necessarily she because I can't
• 49:24
  Speaker 6: say she did it, but whoever is trying to push
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: her forward as a saint is using her children as
• 49:30
  Speaker 6: the narrative, as subjects, as tokens for her her. It's
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: an incredibly distraught type of moment of like, what the
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: hell are you doing? You're using these kids without knowing
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: what the hell is happening behind behind the scenes, and.
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: Kids aren't props, you know, kids aren't props. To further
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: some rhetorical message or you know idea. It's just it's
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: so like I said, I just feel I feel bad
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: for kids who have to whose stories get reduced in
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: public in this way. And I can't even imagine what
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: that feels like.
• 50:02
  Speaker 6: Right well, I mean, just now that I've gone on
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: my tangent, just to go back, it's kind of incredible
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: to see how social media has been pushing her this way,
• 50:11
  Speaker 6: even the White House tweets have been pushing her in
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: this way of trying to a make acb happen, as
• 50:17
  Speaker 6: if she is the new you know, Ruth Bader, and
• 50:21
  Speaker 6: I'm like, no, stop it and be trying to hide
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: any of her past stuff, including the several conversations and
• 50:28
  Speaker 6: seminars that she was a part of that was very
• 50:30
  Speaker 6: anti choice. And it's kind of interesting to see how
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: the social media narrative has really dwindled it down to
• 50:37
  Speaker 6: making her the hero.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, oh yes, And I think that you know,
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: I like if you if like so. The hearing is
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: going on today right now as we're as we're recording this,
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: and I checked into it earlier, and the conversation on
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: social media one is really being dominated by folks on
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: the right who are doing exactly that. And so I
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: do think that they are just kind of hitting this message,
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: like you know, the idea that if you say something
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: a million times, it kind of makes it seem true.
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: They're just continuing to hit this message like she is
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: the new feminist hero. Isn't it great that we that
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: we get to, you know, have this new feminist hero.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: Something that someone said when RBG died is that so
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: many of the things, the specific policies and things that
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: RBG gave us, you know, things that have made not
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: just the lives of women, but everybody better. It's like
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: RBG opened the door, and now the person who is
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: trying to take her place is shutting.
• 51:30
  Speaker 5: That door for so many of us. And it's just
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: it's like twisting the knife.
• 51:34
  Speaker 6: Man.
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: I don't know, it's so it's so hard.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: It's been a rough it's been I mean not to
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: be too dramatic, but when.
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: RBG died, it was.
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: The cherry on like it felt like the cherry on
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: a sandwich of a year. Like that's the one I
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: can say it.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: We have a little bit more for you listeners, but
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: For word from our sponsor and er back, Thank you, sponsor.
• 52:15
  Speaker 6: What are some things that we can do to stop
• 52:19
  Speaker 6: some of this misinformation from being spread right now?
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: Well, the most important thing to think about is, you know,
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: there's so much disinformation and misinformation out there. The most
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: important thing that all of us, anybody listening.
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: Right now, can do is to become.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: A trusted source of accurate and positive information. Right so,
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: you know, make sure that the people in your community
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: have the accurate information they need to vote, make sure
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: that they understand what they're voting for, who they're voting for,
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: make sure that they have that information, and kind of
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: become an influencer.
• 52:51
  Speaker 5: In your own little pocket of the internet.
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: Even if you only have five ten followers, somebody on
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: your timeline, whether it's your family member, your friend, probably
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: look to you and.
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: Thinks this person knows what they're talking about.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: I can count on this person to provide accurate information.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: So focus on, you know, becoming that person in your
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: online community.
• 53:11
  Speaker 5: And really that is a good the most.
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: Important thing we can all do to inoculate our communities
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: against disinformation. Another important thing to note is you don't
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: want to inadvertently help disinformation or misinformation spread.
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: I see this all the time on social media.
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: Because of the way that social media works, it's algorithm based.
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: People you know, will see a tweet that's wrong or
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: misleading and they'll retweet it to debunk it. But because
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: the algorithm is just like pushing it into more people's
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: feed so you're actually helping it grow. So never retweet,
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: never share, even if it's to debunk it, because you're
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: only going to make it grow. So instead focus on
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: just posting positive information and accurate information about how people
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: can vote and make sure that folks know, make sure
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: that people have the information they need to vote in
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: these new, these different ways that we're doing it now,
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: vote by mail, all of that, make sure that they
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: have the information they need to do it safely, and
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: just focus on putting that message out.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Oh those are great tips.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: What are there any resources you want to shout out
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: or any groups you want to shout out who are
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: particularly fighting disinformation right now?
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: Well, Ultraviolet, a groups that I work with, is really
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: doing a lot of work to make sure that just people,
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: you know, everyday people have the information they need to
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: you know, not make disinformation spread. Also, groups like the
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: Pen America Foundation are putting together guides. Sam you mentioned
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: that you often have conversations with your family if you're
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: someone who's listening and you're like, yes, I know this,
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: but my wild uncle posts wild things in the group
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: chat or on the WhatsApp group or on Facebook.
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: Pen America Foundation has a great.
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: Guide about how to talk to the people in your
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: community about their use or spread of disinformation or misinformation,
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: Because nobody wants to be the person that's like getting
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: into a long ass Facebook back and forth with your
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: uncle that you're going to see at Thanksgiving and it's
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: going to get awkward, and everybody's going to be seeing it.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: Like nobody wants that. There are better ways to do it,
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: So definitely check out pen America's guide.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Love it are there.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: What do you think like social media companies should be
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: doing to deal with all of this?
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I mean they've pretty much done nothing,
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: so I think they could start by doing something. You know,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: I think we really have to have a real reckoning
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: around the ways that social media platforms like Facebook and
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: Twitter have allowed disinformation to run rampant and really cause
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: chaos and our democracy. So at the very base level,
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: I would love to see, you know, Facebook be more
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: transparent about their policies and how they are enforced. Enforce
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: their existing policies that are on the book, you know,
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: every now and then when they have some sort of
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: big pr disaster like that kid out in Kenosha who
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: shocked those two protesters and used Facebook events to organize
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: you know, come to arms or you know, beare arms rally,
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: that event went against their policies. So you know, it's
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: difficult to trust Facebook when they come and say like, oh,
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: we're gonna have a new policy, we're gonna crack out
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: on this, or that they should be enforcing their existing
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: policies and you know, having more transparency around how those
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: policies are enforced. So that's the very baseline thing they
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: can do to help prevent the spread of harmful disinformation
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: and misinformation and also violence on their platforms.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I hope that. I hope that happens
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: because I know all of us are being exposed to
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: this more and more, and we have people we care
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: about being exposed to it more and more. And I
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: hope that next time you're on show, Bridget our conversation
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: is more positive and upbeat.
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: I don't know where.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: We'll be in a month from now.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: But fingers crossed, fingers crossed.
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: I hope so too. I hope so too.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so thank you so much for being
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: here and having this conversation, much needed conversation. So looking
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: forward to having you on the show in the future.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: Where can the listeners find you in the meantime, Well, you.
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: Can listen to and subscribe to my podcast. There are
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: no girls on the internet. On iHeartRadio, this very network,
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: we don't just have enraging conversations.
• 57:25
  Speaker 5: Some some of them are fun and.
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: Interesting and insightful or touching.
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: They are not just in raging, I promise.
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: And you can follow me on Twitter at at Bridget
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: Marie or on Instagram at Bridget Marie and.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: DC awesome and definitely do that listeners if you're not
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: doing it already. If you would like to contact us,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: you can Our email is Stuff Media Moms Stuff at
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Instagram at
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard.
• 57:53
  Speaker 5: Thanks Andrew, and.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You,
• 57:56
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• 58:01
  Speaker 1: favorite shows.