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The Real Followers of Buddha: Investigating Early Buddhism · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:01
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Curious
0:05
Mind podcast. My name is Gabriel Ellis.
0:07
I'm a psychologist, a psychotherapist, and a Buddhist
0:10
scholar who is also interested in generally the philosophy of
0:15
consciousness. And last time I started a small
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series about original Buddhism. What is original Buddhism?
0:23
What is it that the historical Buddha actually taught and what
0:27
might be misconceptions about Buddhism that are based on
0:34
either not Buddhism at all or on additions to early Buddhism that
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came from a time about 200 to 400 years after the Buddha,
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during which those oldest Buddhist teachings that we have
0:47
in writing were compiled. Again, to repeat from last time,
0:54
the teachings of the very earliest of Buddhism were not
0:59
fixed and written down centuries after the lifetime of the
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original Buddha, probably around 200 to 400 years.
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And during these years Buddhism has changed, the society around
1:13
Buddhism has changed, and so have the teachings changed as
1:17
well that we find recorded. So if we go back into the oldest
1:22
Pali or sometimes called Tirabada Buddhism literature, we
1:26
cannot expect that we find what what we find in those oldest
1:30
texts are indeed the teachings that the original, the
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historical Buddha gave to his disciples.
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Today I want to cover a few more fields where until next time
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when I will conclude this small series with going finally in
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depth into what the teachings of original Buddhism were.
1:55
So there is kind of a an image of the Buddha that he freely
1:59
gave his teachings about liberation to anyone who asked.
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So the ideas that he walked around, that he was preaching,
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that he met people, be it rich donors, laypeople, ascetics from
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other sects, and of course, Buddhist monastics, and that to
2:19
each and everyone, as long as they were interested, he was
2:23
teaching liberation. But if we follow the texts
2:27
diligently and we'll go into the details, it is most probably not
2:32
correct. First of all, it's good to
2:35
distinguish the kind of the audiences that the Buddhist
2:39
teachings have and those oldest texts.
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And generally we can distinguish three groups of people in the
2:47
Buddha's time. So there were the Buddhist
2:49
monastics, the monks and nuns that the Buddha of course spoke
2:53
to, taught, inspired, and so on. Then there were ascetics of
2:59
other sects. So these were religious
3:02
professionals, we can say, who dedicated their life to
3:06
spirituality, to spiritual liberation, but they just
3:10
followed other paths than the Buddhist path to follow followed
3:14
all the paths. And there was the big group of
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lay people, the Buddhist monastics.
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They were, per definition, the man and woman who ordained into
3:26
the Buddhist order. And then they followed the
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teachings and the monastic code of the Buddha mentioned last
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time. The oldest teachings consists of
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the monastic code which defines how the monks and nuns are
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supposed to behave within the monastic community and outside
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of it. And there are those core
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teachings that are more about spiritual liberation that this
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the so-called Dhamma or in Sanskrit, Dharma.
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I want to read to you a passage that appears in a few of those
4:02
sutas, and it contains quite interesting information.
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In some occasions the Buddha met or encountered laypeople who,
4:12
after talking with them, realized that they have the mind
4:19
that is ready, ready for spiritual liberation.
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And in those circumstances the texts then say.
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Then the Blessed 1. The Buddha gave a progressive
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discourse, that is, a talk on giving, virtuous behavior and
4:35
heaven. He revealed the danger,
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degradation and defilement of central pleasures and the
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benefit of renunciation. Then he revealed that Dharma
4:47
teaching special to the Buddhas suffering, its origin, its
4:52
cessation and the path. OK, this is a dense passage and
4:59
let me open that package for you.
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We have 3 segments here in this passage.
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So first the Buddhas spoke about giving and virtuous behavior and
5:17
that it leads to a heavenly rebirth.
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So again, so talk and giving virtuous behavior in heaven.
5:23
What it means is that he pointed out the benefits of giving,
5:29
selfless giving, donating, supporting, aesthetics and so
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on. Virtuous behavior, thinking,
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acting, communicating in a non harmful way, and that this
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results in a heavenly, heavenly rebirth.
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This is what laypeople were interested in.
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To reap as a reward for a good mundane life.
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To reap the reward of an afterlife that is blessed with
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being in the company of divine beings in some heavenly realm.
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This is culturally, this is part of the ancient Indian
6:06
subcontinent's belief system. So this is 1 segment, and then
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the next one is it revealed the danger, degradation and
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defilement of central pleasures and the benefit of renunciation.
6:20
What that is, is the danger of sensual pleasures, the benefits
6:25
of renunciation. So here he's advocating or
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pointing out the benefits of having the life of a recluse, of
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an ascetic, not a Buddhist ascetic, but it's an ascetic.
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And now comes the interesting part.
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Then he revealed the Dharma teaching special to the Buddhas.
6:48
And then this is the Noble 4/4 full path.
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Sorry, the four noble truths and Buddhism for anyone who is
6:56
familiar with the Buddhist teachings.
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So that's suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of
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suffering, and that there is a path to the cessation of
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suffering. The so-called 4 noble truths of
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Buddhism. OK, so this passage says that
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this is the teaching that is special to the Buddhas, which
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means that the teaching on giving and virtuous behavior is
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not special to the Buddhas, and also that central pleasures are
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dangerous is also not special to the Buddhas.
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And this is quite clear because again, as I pointed out last
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time and also now we had, we have a very fertile spiritual
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landscape in the Buddha's region.
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At the time there were many sects, many beliefs, many
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spiritual practices that professional ascetics followed.
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This was not original to Buddhism, and in fact we know
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that with many hints that there were.
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Previous to the Buddha, there were other spiritual practices
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and paths to a supposed spiritual liberation.
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So to live a virtuous life, not specifically Buddhist, and to
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renounce from central pleasures also not special to the Buddha.
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And the Buddhist teaching, what is special to the Buddhist
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teaching was unique to the Buddhist teaching, is the
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teaching of suffering and the path to end the suffering
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additionally to that. So this is something that we
8:32
keep in mind and of course I will come back to it in the next
8:37
episode where I go more into the content of these specific
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teachings. Apart from that, some
8:45
researchers and we included, we did statistical analysis of the
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Sotos. The Sotos are the the core
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teachings of the Buddhism and we revealed that the Buddha taught
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two kinds of Buddhisms with very little overlap.
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He either taught the 8 full path, which is the path to the
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cessation, the path to ending of suffering.
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So he either taught the 8 full path, jhana and samadhi
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meditation. The 8 full path includes also
9:15
virtuous behavior and then it ends up with the high meditation
9:19
states. So he either taught the
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meditation path and brackets potentially to brahmins who
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believed in some form of soul or self.
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We have some statistical hints that this was the case.
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This on the one hand or on the other hand he taught the path of
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an ATA which means not self, probably to people like non
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brahmins who didn't have a strong belief in the spiritual
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self. The hypothesis here is that the
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teaching of an ATA was indeed core, fundamental original
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Buddhist, but that the Buddha had to deal with many people who
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were who came with the such a deeply ingrained belief and
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conviction of a spiritual self. Something like a soul
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equivalent. Of course, in the Indian culture
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that they might have had difficulties to adapt a practice
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and a teaching that is based on not having a soul, not having a
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self. And so that the alternative was
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to teach them a path of spiritual liberation for deep
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meditation. And that this might have led to
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the same insights, to the same spiritual liberation of nirbana
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as the other path. And the hypothesis is that
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whoever was more receptive to something more fundamental and
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unique of the Buddhist teaching, that they might have been given
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the path of anata, or not self, or the practices of another or
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not self. The ascetics of the Buddha's
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time and place. Like I mentioned, there are
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many. If you want to look into the
11:18
Buddhist teachings, there are also publications about it.
11:22
They are most likely not yet Brahmins.
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As I described last time. The Brahmins, most probably
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during the Buddha's lifetime, were about to settle in the
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regions where the Buddha lived, but we're not settled so much as
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they would constitute a big amount of the spiritual
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community of the spiritual professionals there.
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Instead, we find spiritual practitioners who are who belong
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to the region of Magada or Kosala where the Buddha lived.
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And I want to give you 2 examples, 2 examples of which we
11:59
know. Also a little bit more about the
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spiritual practices. Unfortunately those spiritual
12:07
traditions don't provide teachings and scripts that come
12:13
from around the time of the Buddha.
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So the Buddhist texts are the oldest in from this region.
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But we have a spiritual group that is also alive today.
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These are the so-called Jains. They were called in the Buddhist
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siddhas. They had a different name.
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They were called the Nagantas, which means something like they
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were free from all ties. This is the name that they were
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given in the Buddhist texts and Jainism still persists today.
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They have as a core fundamental practice of the Jain monastics.
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They have an extreme form of non violence.
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They very often the spiritual professionals, the monastics,
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they are naked or almost naked. They if you've seen documentary
13:05
about India, they might have a cloth just at the mouth so that
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they don't accidentally breathe in and thus kill insects.
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They might sweep the floor in front of them in order not to
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step on ants. So this is a very strong
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commitment of those practitioners to non violence of
13:27
to not harming. But unfortunately we have
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written texts only later than of Buddhism.
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It would be fantastic if research could discover and
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analyse teachings that come from around Buddhism, because that
13:47
would give us such a clear idea how Buddhism differentiated
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itself from those other traditions and from Jainism or
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the Nagantas as they are called. Nonetheless, we have some
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description of what those teachings of the Nagantas were
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from the Buddhist perspective. They seem to have as a goal a
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termination of Kama Pali, Karma and Sanskrit, which actually
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means action actions or the results of fruit of action
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activities, mental activities, bodily activities and actions
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are. And this is something that is a
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very common belief in understanding in the Buddha's
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region, that actions and their results are something like the
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fuel for the momentum of the rebirth machine.
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So as long as we act and we act upon the results of our actions
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and so on, that this is a never ending movement and that this
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allows after the death of the physical body for a rebirth to
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happen in an endless cycle of karma and rebirth.
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And the end of that cycle of rebirth is with a little bit of
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simplification, the goal of most of those spiritual traditions
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that were around that time. So this is not specific to
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Buddhism. It's probably not specific or
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originated from Jainism, but it's something that somehow was
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a belief system in the culture in Kosala and Mahagatha.
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So accordingly also for Jainism, the termination of karma, of
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karma was the path for salvation.
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As I mentioned, non violence was a main practice also in the
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sutas and the during. So from the perspective of the
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Buddhists at the time, to give you an example of the practice
15:54
of this there there is a rule for monastics that they're not
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allowed to dig in the ground and that in order not to harm
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animals that live in the ground. And it seems that this rule for
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the Buddhist monastics was introduced because they lived in
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an area where people followed something like Jainism.
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And that it was not inherently a Buddhist commitment to such an
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extreme non violence. But that the population was
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following the spiritual teachings of, for example
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Nagantas or Jains and was averse against spiritual people who
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would dig in the ground and such.
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And as a consequence of that, the Buddha advised or told his
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monastics to adopt this rule. Don't dig into the ground
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because we don't want to alienate the lay population that
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has the strong commitment towards non violence.
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OK, so non violence is a core teaching of Jainism.
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And another one is that the path to the salvation, the path to
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the ending of karma, of actions and their results is partly
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brought about by austerities. Austerities means it's a
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practice of enduring hardship and pain.
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And what is important here, it's a practice of endurance and
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pain. And this is something that the
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Buddha was against. So Jains Nagantas, they were,
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for example, practicing to stand continuously, for example, in
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the sun or to lie in the scorching sun or to stand on my
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one leg. This is these are practices that
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we know from later times and that are partly practiced even
17:47
today in India by some aesthetics.
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And the idea is that I'm I, I endure this hardship, I endure
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this pain. I feel uncomfortable feelings of
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pain, discomfort and so come up and I don't react to them.
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So here I have created pain and I stopped the reactions to pain.
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So in this, in the system of belief is this is already some
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limitation, some ending of karma, because I kept myself
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from the instinctual reaction to hardship and pain.
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And eventually, I guess the idea here is that eventually I dry up
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the source of the ability to feel discomfort and pain and of
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course the ability on the other hand to feel pleasure from
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following my sensual desires. That, of course, was shunned as
18:54
well. Other austerities are to eat
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very little, too fast and intentionally too fast, to
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owning little or nothing, to endure the physical hardships of
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daily life and aesthetic life, and this without complaints, to
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endure heat, cold, hunger, thirst, and so on.
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Another important aspect for the Jains is truthfulness and, as I
19:28
mentioned, to avoid central pleasures.
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Similarly to the Jains, especially original Buddhism,
19:37
this changed later in later parts of the texts.
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Original Buddhism also practiced austerities and saw a benefit in
19:48
practicing austerities. For example, the rule to eat
19:52
only once a day. This is something that the
19:56
Buddhist monastics have been dedicated to.
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Also early layers of the texts described in a positive way to
20:06
endure hunger and thirst, pain and insults, insults from from
20:11
ignorant lay population. The difference here is.
20:17
That the Buddhist monastics are not supposed, They mustn't
20:20
inflict it to themselves. They're not supposed to bring
20:26
hardship and pain voluntarily or forcefully or willingly unto
20:32
themselves. If it happens, then this is
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something that I'm supposed to endure.
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If I'm currently walking in a in a countryside where they are
20:42
insects and mosquitoes, this is something that I have to endure.
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If there is little food, I still stick to the eating once per day
20:50
rule for example. So I accept what comes along,
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but I don't inflict hardship of on myself.
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So this is here a difference between original Buddhism and
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Jainism. Another difference is we cannot
21:10
tell it for sure. There are exceptional states of
21:13
mind that come along with this Jain or Naganta practice of kind
21:19
of non movement physically and emotionally.
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But it seems that a huge difference in terms of real
21:27
spiritual practice of original Buddhism was that they had a, a
21:32
high, really high development of specific meditative states.
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Not just those exotic states of mind where we become kind of
21:41
elated and feeling of self-control when we overcome
21:47
the discomfort of physical pain. But much beyond that
21:50
development, a almost scientific development of the mind, of
21:55
meditative states, of understanding, of the mind, of
21:57
gaining wisdom and so on. Of course we only have the
22:00
Buddhist perspective here, but it seems that this was truly the
22:05
case, that the Buddha and his immediate followers truly had
22:09
deep insights into the meditative mind.
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I want to discuss a second group of people.
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These are the so-called Aggicas. They had a teaching of
22:22
predetermination, of destiny and of fate, sorry fate.
22:28
They taught that there is no free will and there is no
22:31
control and nothing like, you know, one's own strength to
22:35
overcome obstacles. And here I want to read a small
22:39
quote from you of how the Ajibicas were described in the
22:43
Buddhist texts. Just as a ball of string when
22:48
thrown runs till it's all unravelled, so fools and wise
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run on and circle round till they make an end of suffering.
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What this means is that here the Ajibica teachers say that you
23:06
can do whatever you like. Your destiny is already written,
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you can practice spiritual teachings, you can meditate, or
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you can just live a completely mundane life.
23:19
There will be an end to the round of rebirth, there will be
23:22
an end to suffering, but it is not something that you bring
23:26
about. It's just something that
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happens. This is one aspect that we can
23:32
identify as a teaching of the Ajdikas at the Buddha's time.
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And here the Buddha is very strong in this rejection of this
23:43
teaching. Why?
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Because this goes so counter his own teaching.
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The Buddhist teaching is based on strong will of energy, self
23:54
determination, you know, struggling through the
23:57
meditation in order to climb this ladder of the more and more
24:00
purified mind. This was the basis for the
24:04
practice of the Buddhist teachings.
24:07
And proper proper effort will determine a better rebirth or
24:13
liberation and not fate. And fatalism will make people
24:20
not to practice. If you are told it doesn't
24:23
matter what you do, whatever will happen will happen anyway,
24:27
then this will. And particularly from the
24:29
Buddhist perspective, this will discourage you from trying to do
24:33
better. And here the he saw the Ajudica
24:37
teachings as a very detrimental and dangerous to pursue.
24:45
Good. Now I come to the third group
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that I mentioned before. So we have the Buddhist
24:50
monastics, we have the followers of other sects, and I point out
24:54
the two examples of the Jains slash Nagantas.
24:58
And the second group was the Agvicas, and the third group of
25:01
people are lay people. As I mentioned before the
25:07
beginning, mostly people were taught the path of veneration,
25:12
venerating the Buddha and the Sangha, which is the group of
25:15
the Buddhist monastics, the path of veneration and the generosity
25:20
towards the Sangha to provide food, to provide shelter, to
25:25
provide support in other ways. And the we're taught ethical
25:30
behaviour. Now there is something
25:33
problematic about that. Why?
25:36
Because from the point of view of the more exclusive, the more
25:39
hardcore Buddhist teachings, the promised heavily rebirth for
25:43
generosity and for ethical behaviour is only temporary.
25:48
So monastics, we're taught that they should not cling to their
25:54
successes and meditation that is supposed to lead them to a
25:57
heavenly rebirth. Why?
25:59
Because the divine beings eventually will get reborn again
26:03
in the lower realm. This is not, it's not you cannot
26:08
get it as a as a ladder that you will get reborn in a heavenly
26:12
realm and then you will continue on more easily to Nirvana or
26:16
liberation. The monastics were warned
26:19
against such a perspective. So why then were laypeople
26:23
taught to be or why were they lured into ethical behavior and
26:29
generosity with a promise that it would give them a heavenly
26:32
rebirth? Well, for one, the laypeople at
26:35
that time just had this interest.
26:40
There was a strong motivation in managing the afterlife and to
26:45
create conditions so that they will be reborn in a very
26:50
pleasant divine realm. So we can assume that lay people
26:53
just had this idea. Another hypothesis is that it
27:00
would have been quite difficult to convince them of the
27:05
opposite, to tell people with such a mundane kind of interest
27:10
in the afterlife and a pleasant place in the afterlife.
27:13
To tell them that actually their belief is wrong and it would
27:17
entangle them even more. Or wouldn't, would not let them
27:23
give them a path to get out of the cycle of rebirths.
27:27
This probably would have been a difficult pill to swallow for
27:31
the light population. So it might be that the Buddha
27:35
that his closest disciples, they focused on teaching the truth,
27:41
so to speak, to the monastic minority and to tell it to lay
27:48
population only when these kind of exceptional individuals
27:54
showed a real spiritual talent for these teachings.
28:02
As I mentioned in the last episode, it is likely that many
28:04
of the teachings to lay people are in fact the product of later
28:09
Buddhism, when monastics were less living and meditating in
28:13
the forests, but lived close to urban areas, and so they
28:17
adjusted the teachings to the needs of the lay population.
28:20
So where we find those teachings on generosity, on donations, on
28:27
ethical behavior for the lay people, when we find that so
28:30
often in the Buddhist texts, it might well be that a lot of this
28:33
material actually comes from or is rooted.
28:38
And the fact that Buddhism in the 200 to 400 years until the
28:43
texts were fixed, moved closer to the urban centers and
28:47
satisfied more the needs of lay population.
28:52
Speaking of divine rebirth, of course we have to talk about the
28:56
gods. Often enough people in the West
29:00
believe that God or the gods don't have a lot of room in the
29:06
Buddhist teachings. And strangely enough, the
29:09
Buddhist texts are obsessed with heavenly beings, with heavenly
29:15
rebirth and so on. Partly because of this late
29:18
interest. But beyond that as well, the
29:22
Buddhist texts they deal with, for example the traditional
29:25
Vedic gods like Indra. Indra was the main God of the
29:30
Flick Veda, the oldest Indian spiritual texts of Brahmins.
29:35
But as I described last time, the Vedas were conceived more in
29:39
the West. It was in Kulu and Panchala
29:44
which was to the West of where the Buddha lived.
29:47
And only slowly, only with time the Brahmins moved to the east
29:52
and established themselves there.
29:55
Nonetheless, the Buddhist texts, they mention the Vedic gods like
29:59
Indra and the so-called gods of 33.
30:03
This was an established, an established group of Vedic
30:07
deities. They mentioned also local
30:11
deities from Magala and Kosala mentioned demigods.
30:15
And there is even a long list of gods specific to the Buddhist
30:19
teachings which correspond to, and this is interesting to
30:23
meditation States and we'll talk a little bit more about that in
30:28
a bit. There is also an evil deity
30:32
called Mara that wants to keep humans from getting spiritually
30:37
liberated. All in all, this excessive
30:41
interest in deities probably comes from later periods and the
30:46
focus on the lay population. But they're also like, All in
30:52
all, there's so many references that also the deities, not for
30:58
the lay populations, but the deities that address those
31:01
higher meditation states, They are more genuine to Buddhism,
31:06
but not to lay Buddhism, but to monastic Buddhism.
31:11
We have to assume that even among the monastics who were in
31:16
so many other places discouraged from pursuing rebirth states as
31:21
deities, that they still had a strong interest, that there was
31:25
still a strong interest in the monastic community, in the level
31:29
of on the on those heavenly realms and the rebirth as
31:33
heavenly beings. The content of those sutas that
31:38
relate to gods and deities is mostly to show that the Buddha
31:44
is far more worthy, far more superior.
31:47
He's worthy of worship, He's more powerful, he's more wise
31:51
than those deities. This is mostly the content of
31:54
these God or gods related sutas. Another group of suchas has
32:00
almost like a scientific aim. And this is to show that
32:05
specific states of mind correspond with specific realms
32:11
of rebirth. Why scientific?
32:18
On the one hand, we have, like I said, a deep understanding, a
32:25
deep classification of meditation states with higher
32:29
and higher realms of purification, subtlety, loftness
32:35
and so on. And then it seems that a certain
32:40
group of more academically or scientifically inclined
32:44
monastics developed the concept that each of this distinct
32:48
meditation states, if for example, a monastic died without
32:54
being liberated, that this meditation state should result
32:58
in something that is higher than just a basic heavenly realm.
33:04
That a high meditation state should result in a high DT
33:08
rebirth, and the even more subtle meditation state should
33:13
result in an even more exalted divine realm.
33:16
And so we have kind of those those mattresses matrixes where
33:23
the meditation stage corresponds to the rebirth realm.
33:26
And this is quite pedantic in a large group of such as, again, I
33:33
can refer you to my dissertation where I show this the
33:36
development of the content there.
33:40
And we can not expect that these kinds of pedantic correlations
33:46
between meditation States and rebirth realms are in fact
33:49
teachings of the original Buddha of the earliest stages, stage of
33:55
Buddhism that breathes a different, more pedantic spirit.
34:00
An exception I want to talk about more in detail next time
34:04
is the DT and the spiritual concept of Brahma.
34:10
In contrast to the other deities, Brahma is more deeply
34:14
connected and entangled in the Buddhist teachings.
34:17
There's so many more frameworks, references about Brahma and
34:21
Brahma states than with those other deities.
34:25
And especially the concept of Brahma is connected with high
34:29
meditation states that are achieved by meditating on the
34:34
purification of the heart. So this is quite an important
34:39
part in the meditation practice, and so I will give it a deeper
34:45
notion next time when I try to sum up what we can more or less
34:53
safely say about the teachings of original Buddhism.
34:57
OK to summarize, what seems to be teachings of original
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Buddhism is the teaching of spiritual liberation by deep
35:05
meditation, including the meditation on the purification
35:10
of the heart. And the second path of
35:13
liberation or aspect of liberation is by realizing the
35:18
fundamental non self, the not self nature of the mind.
35:24
Early Buddhism was positive towards asceticism.
35:28
Like I said, early Buddhism embraced endurance and hardship,
35:34
but it was against in contrast to the Jains and the Ngantas.
35:38
It was against self-inflicted harm and intentional fasting,
35:43
excessive fasting. Original Buddhism strongly
35:47
emphasized self determination and energetic resolve towards
35:51
liberation. This was in contrast to the AGD
35:54
cast who promoted the spiritual teaching of destiny and fate,
36:02
and probably not geared towards the lay population, but not
36:06
exclusive to Buddhism. We're teachings of generosity
36:09
and heavenly rebirth as a reward for good behavior.
36:14
This is something that seems to have been in the spiritual
36:17
discourse of the time. Anyway, a bit more interesting
36:22
is as I mentioned, the spiritual concept, the DT of Bhama and I
36:27
will go into that next time. I will discuss also the concepts
36:33
of the noble for the Four Noble Truths, of Buddhism, of the deep
36:39
meditation States and of not self and karma.
36:43
Thank you for your attention this time.
36:45
I hope it was interesting to you.
36:47
Let me know if you have further questions and I hope to see you
36:51
in the next episode.