Latest / The Parenting Podcast / Inside Out Parenting: Understanding the Real Reasons Behind Behavior | Ep. 130

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Inside Out Parenting: Understanding the Real Reasons Behind Behavior | Ep. 130 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:06
  Sometimes, things are not what they appear to be.
• 0:11
  And that can be especially true in the rollercoaster ride of parenting.
• 0:17
  Could what looks like defiance actually be a cry for connection?
• 0:23
  Today on the Parenting Podcast, In response to a parent's letter, we unravel some of the layers of our children's behaviors to see what lies beneath, digging deeper to get to the heart of the matter and of our child.
• 0:39
  Is it deception?
• 0:41
  Or something else?
• 0:44
  I am Cheryl Ang, your host, and I'm glad you've joined us as we explore how looking inward might reveal some surprising truths.
• 0:54
  Let's get started.
• 1:01
  Cheryl: Well, we have a birthday girl in here this week.
• 1:05
  Cheryl: Yeah, it happened.
• 1:06
  Cheryl: Here I am,
• 1:07
  Christie: 45.
• 1:07
  Christie: Happy birthday, Christy.
• 1:09
  Christie: Thank you.
• 1:10
  Christie: So
• 1:10
  Ellen: You're officially middle aged.
• 1:12
  Christie: Yeah, I mean, I guess if I'm gonna make to 90, this would be the middle, so Yeah
• 1:16
  Cheryl: yeah.
• 1:17
  Cheryl: That's true.
• 1:17
  Cheryl: I think your birthday ended up being a little different than what you thought it would be.
• 1:22
  Cheryl: Like Tuesday night?
• 1:24
  Christie: Oh, yeah.
• 1:25
  Christie: Well, we were supposed to get together and the weather looked like it was going to be hairy.
• 1:30
  Christie: So we canceled.
• 1:31
  Christie: And then, of course, nothing happened.
• 1:33
  Christie: So that was disappointing.
• 1:35
  Christie: But That's the rule.
• 1:36
  Christie: Yeah.
• 1:36
  Christie: I know.
• 1:37
  Cheryl: I mean, every Our listeners probably go, is the weather always like this in Oklahoma?
• 1:42
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 1:42
  Cheryl: It has been
• 1:43
  Christie: this
• 1:43
  Cheryl: year.
• 1:43
  Cheryl: It sure
• 1:44
  Christie: has
• 1:44
  Cheryl: been.
• 1:45
  Cheryl: Yes, they warned
• 1:46
  Christie: so much, so then you have to tell everybody to stay away.
• 1:48
  Christie: Right.
• 1:48
  Christie: Well, yeah, I mean, that morning we had woken up to seeing people flooded in more and
• 1:53
  Cheryl: Yep.
• 1:53
  Christie: Thought, you know, gosh, I don't want to put everyone in that position.
• 1:56
  Christie: And then the next morning, it was more again, I think, same area got hit again.
• 2:01
  Christie: So yeah.
• 2:02
  Christie: Yeah, it's been quite the storm season.
• 2:04
  Ellen: Yeah,
• 2:04
  Cheryl: it's just a mess.
• 2:05
  Cheryl: And so, my daughters and I drove to Austin to see my son and his wife this weekend.
• 2:10
  Cheryl: And we saw so much, because we were south, and then places there, and it warned us going and coming about flooding and everything else.
• 2:18
  Cheryl: And it either hits or it doesn't, but you have to be prepared either way, so.
• 2:24
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 2:25
  Ellen: It's really been something.
• 2:26
  Ellen: We spend a lot of time in Oklahoma being prepared and listening to the radio or staring at the television.
• 2:32
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 2:32
  Ellen: You get a
• 2:32
  Christie: blow by blow.
• 2:33
  Christie: It's funny when my daughter and son in law were here visiting during those first storm weeks that we had, my son in law said, yeah, we don't have the relationship with our weather people that you all do here.
• 2:45
  Christie: Yes.
• 2:45
  Christie: It's true.
• 2:46
  Christie: They are local celebrities for sure.
• 2:48
  Christie: It
• 2:49
  Cheryl: really is.
• 2:51
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 2:52
  Cheryl: So, what I have here is.
• 2:54
  Cheryl: is a really, actually quite long scenario and question from one of our listeners.
• 3:01
  Cheryl: And I I edited a little bit.
• 3:05
  Cheryl: Y'all can see it's really long, but I think it addresses, not only for them, but some issues that we all struggle with in parenting, whatever ages of our kids.
• 3:16
  Cheryl: So, how about if I just read all of this, and then let's address it and see what you want to do.
• 3:22
  Cheryl: Sure.
• 3:23
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 3:24
  Cheryl: Hi, you all.
• 3:25
  Cheryl: I have a dilemma with my 14 daughter.
• 3:29
  Cheryl: Ever since she was a little girl, she's been strong willed, a go getter, a push the limits type of person.
• 3:37
  Cheryl: And I hate to say it, but there's been a lot of deception.
• 3:41
  Cheryl: I would say a pattern of deception.
• 3:44
  Cheryl: Not in major heinous offenses, but in smaller yet still concerning areas of her life.
• 3:51
  Cheryl: Let me share some examples.
• 3:53
  Cheryl: When she was nine, we got her an mp3 player to listen to music and thought it was straightforward and safe.
• 4:00
  Cheryl: And then she figured out how to access the internet with no guards or oversight.
• 4:05
  Cheryl: And it was several weeks before we found out.
• 4:09
  Cheryl: And then there was a time when she was 11, she sneaked a laptop into her room overnight, and over the course of a couple of days had secretly created a website, a Pinterest account.
• 4:21
  Cheryl: Smart kid.
• 4:22
  Cheryl: It was a problem.
• 4:24
  Christie: Uh huh.
• 4:25
  Cheryl: A Pinterest account to market some products she had made despite our media rules about it.
• 4:31
  Cheryl: And now she's 14.
• 4:33
  Cheryl: She's figured out how to get around her screen time limits that we've set for her and changed the time zone on her phone so she can simply access her device at her whim.
• 4:46
  Cheryl: These are just several scenarios that give you an idea of how smart she is, but there's an underlying theme of deception and breaking the boundaries we as parents have set for her, I'm at a loss of what to do.
• 4:59
  Cheryl: We're intentionally trying to give her more freedom like you all recommend, like birthday boxes, and releasing her incrementally and intentionally.
• 5:07
  Cheryl: Yet we're hitting these walls where she's abusing the privileges and deceiving us.
• 5:12
  Cheryl: I feel like my hand is forced and I'm in a position to police her every move and be constantly suspicious and checking up on her.
• 5:20
  Cheryl: But this hurts our relationship.
• 5:22
  Cheryl: and breeds more deception, and isn't helping us in the big picture of trying to release her towards adulthood.
• 5:30
  Cheryl: Is it possible that I can have a good relationship with my daughter?
• 5:33
  Cheryl: How can I keep her safe and let her grow up at the same time?
• 5:38
  Cheryl: What would you recommend?
• 5:40
  Cheryl: how do we address the deception, which is in other areas as well, and also try to release her and help her to grow?
• 5:47
  Cheryl: I'm feeling pretty worn out and desperate.
• 5:50
  Cheryl: Can you help me?
• 5:52
  Cheryl: And how do I parent her heart and let her grow up and keep our communication open?
• 5:57
  Cheryl: Thank you all so much.
• 5:59
  Cheryl: I need some wisdom.
• 6:01
  Christie: I just, I feel this mom's exhaustion.
• 6:05
  Christie: Yes.
• 6:06
  Christie: And the weight of just yet again, yet again, yet again.
• 6:10
  Christie: What am I to do now?
• 6:11
  Christie: And I just feel for her.
• 6:13
  Christie: Yes,
• 6:13
  Cheryl: and she expanded it some more that it wasn't, Just about devices, but it's also like sneaking candy or just it's kind of been a pattern this child's whole life of Well, I sneaking and deceiving.
• 6:31
  Ellen: I think the key was when she said she's strong willed All right.
• 6:34
  Ellen: So what do you mean by that?
• 6:35
  Ellen: Well, I know as a strong willed person the minute you give me too many things that I can't do I just naturally lean to i'm going to figure out how to do them
• 6:45
  Cheryl: Yeah,
• 6:45
  Christie: yeah, and it almost sounds like it's not even about the thing.
• 6:49
  Christie: Yes.
• 6:49
  Christie: It's about wanting better Daughter's wanting the control over herself and being able to do whatever she's been told not to do.
• 6:59
  Christie: It could be, you know, anything.
• 7:01
  Christie: It's not so much about the actual thing that she's being held back from.
• 7:05
  Cheryl: And as a child, I was a good kid.
• 7:08
  Cheryl: I didn't struggle like this, but I was willing to lie to keep out of trouble.
• 7:14
  Cheryl: Well, I think we all are.
• 7:15
  Cheryl: I mean, that's basically, we're born that way.
• 7:17
  Cheryl: I wasn't a good kid because I had this desire for a righteous, wonderful
• 7:21
  Carol: life Well, you get rewarded when you're a good kid.
• 7:24
  Carol: You sure do.
• 7:25
  Carol: But one of the things I understand, that catastrophizing, you know, one that seems to have a bent to lie, or you can't.
• 7:35
  Carol: You don't know if you can trust what they say and it catastrophizes that and see a whole lifetime of this and, um, it's hard.
• 7:45
  Carol: Yeah.
• 7:46
  Ellen: I was going to say, I think one of the things that's really important, especially with a strong willed child that's bending towards not giving you truth, you have to be careful you don't make everything an issue,
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: you know,
• 7:58
  Ellen: cause one thing for children in general, like They want to have some choices.
• 8:03
  Ellen: Compliant kids don't care.
• 8:04
  Ellen: You can tell them this is what we're doing, they're fine.
• 8:06
  Ellen: But strong willed kids want to say, well, how are we doing this?
• 8:10
  Ellen: What do I get to do?
• 8:11
  Ellen: Da da da da da.
• 8:12
  Ellen: So you, if you have a strong willed child in particular and they're lying, you have to get to the root of why do they feel the need to withhold truth from me?
• 8:23
  Ellen: Do they feel like every time they do something wrong, I'm going to come down on them and they're going to be in trouble for that?
• 8:30
  Ellen: And that's just, that's not What's going to motivate them to tell
• 8:33
  Christie: you the truth?
• 8:34
  Christie: Yeah, I think motive and the reason, like you were saying, Cheryl, that you would lie to not get in trouble.
• 8:40
  Christie: Well, your motivation was to be perceived as a good person.
• 8:44
  Christie: And this, this child sounds like maybe her motive is more having that autonomy and wanting control and, and not conforming to what is expected of her by other people.
• 8:58
  Christie: And so I, I think you're right on like the motive.
• 9:01
  Christie: The more free range she can have may satisfy some of that craving, but it might just not.
• 9:09
  Christie: That's the thing.
• 9:10
  Christie: You know, every kid has their thing that they're going to just struggle with.
• 9:14
  Cheryl: You have to get to
• 9:15
  Ellen: the root of.
• 9:17
  Ellen: Why do they want to be deceptive?
• 9:19
  Ellen: You know, I mean, that's a really important thing.
• 9:21
  Ellen: Because sometimes they'll be deceptive over the stupidest thing.
• 9:25
  Ellen: And I think as parents we've all like, Why did you feel like you had to lie about that?
• 9:28
  Ellen: You wouldn't have even gotten in trouble.
• 9:31
  Ellen: And I think if there's a kid that feels like they constantly have so many boundaries, I remember my youngest daughter, I don't know what it was, but um, her husband said to me, he goes, And I don't remember, it's hard because I can't remember what the scenario was.
• 9:47
  Ellen: He said something to the effect of, well, why didn't you, you know, not let her do that?
• 9:52
  Ellen: And she was a teenager.
• 9:54
  Ellen: And she was not strong willed at all.
• 9:55
  Ellen: No, not at all.
• 9:56
  Ellen: And I said, because if she wanted to, she could just open the bathroom window and leave.
• 10:01
  Ellen: And my daughter started laughing and she goes, yeah, my mom did the right thing by letting me have some choices in this because I, I might've done that.
• 10:10
  Ellen: So sometimes.
• 10:12
  Ellen: Because if we're a compliant person or we don't have a tendency to be deceitful, we don't understand that.
• 10:19
  Ellen: I guess I'm advocating for strong willed children because I grew up constantly butting heads with adults that thought, this is all you can do.
• 10:28
  Ellen: Because
• 10:28
  Cheryl: that
• 10:28
  Ellen: is
• 10:28
  Cheryl: true.
• 10:29
  Cheryl: because it is different.
• 10:30
  Cheryl: Like, This pattern, particularly the strong willed.
• 10:34
  Cheryl: Yeah, when I think about your lifetime and all of it Barriers are to be kicked down was the way you saw it
• 10:42
  Ellen: yes
• 10:43
  Cheryl: rather than they're the bowling alley bumpers To keep your ball inside right right.
• 10:50
  Cheryl: Um, it takes a different kind of parenting.
• 10:52
  Cheryl: And it
• 10:52
  Ellen: takes a different mindset as a, as a parent of a stronger willed child.
• 10:56
  Ellen: Mm hmm.
• 10:56
  Ellen: You have to just think they're probably not going to be compliant so how many choices can I allow this child to have?
• 11:04
  Ellen: Mm hmm.
• 11:05
  Ellen: And not be so concerned with, oh, they broke the rule and now I'm confronting them and they feel the need to lie.
• 11:10
  Ellen: Right.
• 11:10
  Ellen: Because that's the pattern that you set up.
• 11:12
  Ellen: Whether you mean to or not, that's what happens.
• 11:15
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 11:16
  Christie: And I feel like this, this kind of child takes pick your battles to a whole nother level.
• 11:22
  Christie: Because really you're having to deal with the biggest fire burning.
• 11:27
  Christie: And it may not be that your biggest fire right now is, you know, what they can wear or, or social media or, you know, all those things.
• 11:37
  Christie: It might be that the biggest fire burning is.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Christie: The deception that you've, you've got to address, or at least try to explore.
• 11:44
  Christie: You may, you're probably not going to solve this.
• 11:47
  Christie: It's probably going to be a long running
• 11:51
  Ellen: struggle
• 11:51
  Christie: for this child.
• 11:52
  Christie: Yeah.
• 11:53
  Christie: But.
• 11:54
  Christie: Start trying to explore what the motive is and try to think through what their thinking is and get some, some kind of handle on it of what their intentions are because it might be like, I mean, probably not with this child that it was that they wanted to be seen as a good person.
• 12:12
  Christie: Yeah, that's not the issue.
• 12:13
  Christie: So you've got to look at, you know, it's, it's probably more, maybe they have some frustration about.
• 12:19
  Christie: You know, other things in the family or other things in the relationship that they're acting out in the sometimes they
• 12:25
  Ellen: don't feel heard.
• 12:26
  Ellen: I think that happens with a strong willed kid, because your parents starts looking at you through this lens of, well, if I tell her not to do that, she's going to do it anyway.
• 12:35
  Ellen: So, and you're there, the parents always on an alert and the Kids always on an alert because they're just going to tell me I can't do it.
• 12:43
  Ellen: I was thinking of, I don't know if you mentioned it here or was that the bowl of candy that Well, I just mentioned Okay, yeah, I didn't know Yeah,
• 12:50
  Cheryl: yeah, that even as a little one she would sneak candy
• 12:54
  Ellen: I was going to address that in a sense that I learned that, you know, if my parents said you can't have this candy, then of course I wanted it.
• 13:01
  Ellen: Right Rather than if my parents would have said Here's the three pieces of candy you can have today.
• 13:06
  Ellen: I'm going to leave them out for you.
• 13:07
  Ellen: You can eat them all at once or you can make them last the whole day.
• 13:10
  Ellen: But I'm going to put the bowl up so we can have candy for other people.
• 13:14
  Cheryl: This is so good because this is why you want people with various
• 13:19
  Carol: perspectives in your life to speak in because your take on this is so radically different from how I saw it because you're right.
• 13:28
  Carol: because I did catastrophize their lying to me, because I said to one of my daughters one time, I don't lie to you, I'm honest with you, why would you have lied to me about this?
• 13:40
  Carol: And she just said, Mom, we didn't want to disappoint you.
• 13:44
  Carol: So see, a compliant would be willing to lie.
• 13:49
  Carol: To not disappoint.
• 13:50
  Carol: But a strong will, they don't care if they disappoint their
• 13:53
  Ellen: parents.
• 13:54
  Cheryl: Yeah, I mean.
• 13:54
  Cheryl: And this, I happen to know this mother.
• 13:57
  Cheryl: And she, guess what, she's a compliant rule follower.
• 14:00
  Cheryl: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:01
  Cheryl: You know, so, to even understand.
• 14:02
  Cheryl: It's hard for her to get her head around what her child's
• 14:05
  Christie: thinking then.
• 14:06
  Christie: If, if the child's doing it for the thrill of the very opposite, like, I like the thrill of knowing I'm doing something that would be non compliant.
• 14:16
  Christie: Wow.
• 14:16
  Christie: You know, I, I think.
• 14:18
  Christie: Some, some kids just feel that, and it may be that they're
• 14:22
  Ellen: just going to go, I want to do it.
• 14:23
  Ellen: I don't care if it makes my whole family mad at me.
• 14:26
  Ellen: I want to do it.
• 14:27
  Cheryl: And just in general, deception and lying, I think we, as I will say, particularly moms, make it
• 14:35
  Carol: a
• 14:35
  Cheryl: much bigger deal, right?
• 14:37
  Cheryl: Oh, yeah.
• 14:38
  Cheryl: And that catastrophizing again, uh, rather than realizing this is a normal part of development and how we want to deal with it.
• 14:48
  Christie: Yeah Another thing I'm thinking about too is since it has been a pattern that's been going on for a while at some point I have seen kids that almost start owning the behavior as their identity.
• 15:05
  Christie: Oh my.
• 15:06
  Christie: Talk some more about that.
• 15:07
  Christie: That's really good.
• 15:08
  Christie: Like, you know, if, if a child got in too deep into a pattern and now 14 years in, they're, they're kind of feeling like, well, this is just who I am.
• 15:18
  Christie: It may Oh, I'm the bad kid.
• 15:19
  Christie: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Christie: And it may be, it may be good and, and maybe it's not necessary or needed.
• 15:23
  Christie: I might be.
• 15:24
  Christie: Assuming, but it might be good to at least offer some kind of encouragement and speak some positivity over the child of This is what I see in you and try to elevate some some things in them And and call them to the occasion that you want them to walk in It might help to diffuse some shame that the child's not Expressing but feeling over what they've done
• 15:50
  Carol: Ellen, as a Strong Will, did you feel shame in any of it?
• 15:53
  Carol: Um, A
• 15:54
  Ellen: little bit, but mostly I felt anger because I felt like you're not listening to me.
• 16:00
  Ellen: You know, you have a preconceived idea of this is how I'm supposed to do this.
• 16:05
  Ellen: And you're not, especially as a teenager, you weren't, you're not allowing me enough choices to express myself.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: When my
• 16:12
  Ellen: parents would allow me choices, I usually would go, I would do that.
• 16:16
  Ellen: But it was having the choice, having a say and having a voice.
• 16:20
  Ellen: For more compliant people, they don't care.
• 16:22
  Ellen: They'll go, Okay, that's what everybody wants to do.
• 16:24
  Ellen: I'll go along with it.
• 16:25
  Ellen: Strong willed people go, Hmm, why should I go along with it?
• 16:29
  Ellen: What, what are the pros and cons?
• 16:30
  Ellen: Oh, I don't like that idea.
• 16:32
  Ellen: I'm not going to do that.
• 16:32
  Ellen: I mean, I do that now as an adult.
• 16:34
  Ellen: Maybe not as rudely as I did when I was a kid.
• 16:37
  Ellen: But I naturally go, Well, why would I
• 16:39
  Cheryl: do that?
• 16:40
  Cheryl: You know?
• 16:41
  Cheryl: And see, I'm listening to you.
• 16:43
  Cheryl: And I hear respect in that.
• 16:45
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 16:45
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 16:45
  Cheryl: Yes.
• 16:46
  Cheryl: That's perfect.
• 16:47
  Cheryl: That actually, what you want, it's not you want to kick the walls down.
• 16:53
  Cheryl: Right.
• 16:54
  Cheryl: Maybe, would this be accurate?
• 16:56
  Cheryl: That you actually have an elevated sense of wanting to be respected.
• 17:00
  Cheryl: Absolutely.
• 17:02
  Cheryl: I can see
• 17:03
  Christie: that, yeah.
• 17:04
  Christie: And
• 17:04
  Ellen: strong willed people, you can almost across the board ask him.
• 17:07
  Ellen: If you don't have my respect, you have nothing
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: You
• 17:11
  Ellen: know, and I might be kind to you and I might be pleasant to you, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, I don't respect this.
• 17:17
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 17:18
  Cheryl: That's so interesting because, a compliant, doesn't
• 17:23
  Carol: factor respect into it.
• 17:24
  Carol: You get your reward for being compliant.
• 17:26
  Carol: The identity is what other people think.
• 17:29
  Carol: Am I towing the line?
• 17:31
  Carol: Am I the good girl?
• 17:32
  Carol: You're right, I've seen it in other instances where there's a very strong will, and they so don't respect the ones that are saying, well, do the right thing because it's the right thing.
• 17:45
  Carol: Well, my
• 17:46
  Ellen: little sister was like that.
• 17:47
  Ellen: There was just two of us.
• 17:48
  Ellen: Oh, that's true.
• 17:48
  Ellen: She was compliant.
• 17:49
  Ellen: She's a wonderful, she's passed away, but she was a wonderful person.
• 17:53
  Ellen: But I hated her guts.
• 17:54
  Ellen: Mmm, no.
• 17:55
  Ellen: All through.
• 17:56
  Ellen: school and high school because she was to me she always did what she was told.
• 18:00
  Ellen: And I was like, what's wrong with you?
• 18:01
  Ellen: And of course she got rewarded because she always did what was right, never gave anyone.
• 18:06
  Ellen: She wound up as an adult having a little bit harder time.
• 18:10
  Ellen: Whereas by the time I got into adulthood, I had already kind of fought against the man and she.
• 18:17
  Ellen: And I had to do that as an adult, and that was a lot harder.
• 18:20
  Ellen: And I always kind of understood that even growing up.
• 18:23
  Ellen: I worried about her because she was conforming to what everyone wanted to make everyone happy.
• 18:29
  Ellen: Wow.
• 18:29
  Ellen: So
• 18:30
  Christie: interesting.
• 18:31
  Christie: Yeah.
• 18:31
  Christie: And.
• 18:32
  Christie: I'm thinking back to when you guys were talking about respect, I was just thinking, listeners maybe think, what does that look like to respect your kids?
• 18:42
  Christie: Because a strong willed child, just the fact that you acknowledge they're a child, they're offended.
• 18:47
  Christie: Yeah, that's true.
• 18:48
  Christie: I mean, I remember we were in this, this parenting class and the, the person leading it said, if you have a firstborn girl, raise your hand.
• 18:57
  Christie: And so.
• 18:57
  Christie: We of course did.
• 18:59
  Christie: 'cause we only had girls, and he said, your first born girl basically says, mom, dad, what are we gonna do with these other kids?
• 19:07
  Christie: because they think they're the third parent.
• 19:09
  Christie: And you said, this is the first born, this is the firstborn.
• 19:12
  Christie: And so just the fact that they're probably, I mean, first born girls help with the siblings, they help with the house, and then there's.
• 19:19
  Christie: It's still held to the standards of the kids.
• 19:22
  Christie: It's a really tough place to be.
• 19:25
  Christie: And I wonder if that, that could be a factor.
• 19:27
  Cheryl: That's true.
• 19:28
  Cheryl: Firstborn plays into this.
• 19:29
  Cheryl: Number one, firstborn gets more responsibility.
• 19:33
  Cheryl: You're expected to stand up and do the next thing.
• 19:38
  Cheryl: And you're seven years old now.
• 19:40
  Cheryl: You're 10 years old.
• 19:41
  Cheryl: So many unspoken expectations, and particularly the combination of being strong willed.
• 19:47
  Cheryl: Um.
• 19:47
  Cheryl: Well, but you're not giving me all the freedom and respect I deserve, but you're expecting all this responsibility.
• 19:55
  Cheryl: And I'm not the one who's going to go, please give me more responsibility, right?
• 19:59
  Christie: Because
• 19:59
  Ellen: I didn't understand that I was supposed to comply with the parental units.
• 20:03
  Ellen: You forgot that.
• 20:04
  Ellen: They
• 20:04
  Christie: forgot to tell you that.
• 20:05
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:06
  Cheryl: I didn't get that manual.
• 20:07
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Cheryl: This has been so interesting.
• 20:09
  Cheryl: I had no idea we would go this direction on this.
• 20:13
  Cheryl: Okay, so now The parents are listening to this, so let's speak directly to this to give encouragement and what would be suggestions that you would offer, how to deal with this, because if there is deception, you have to correct deception just as the wrong, whatever else one does wrong.
• 20:31
  Cheryl: But it has to be a level.
• 20:33
  Carol: Okay, They can't all be, you can't just go, this is deception and it might be that you, the child said they.
• 20:39
  Carol: Okay.
• 20:39
  Carol: did this and they didn't do it versus they just out and out made up this huge thing so if you're a compliant person or you really don't deceive very often you can't even get that your kid might just naturally do that and just go oh she's putting me on the spot well am i going to get in trouble because if you get in trouble a lot then you start having to figure out ways to get out of trouble wow so you have to change the narrative
• 21:04
  Cheryl: and i will say my more difficult challenging children I had to be careful not be predisposed to expect pushback and flack from them or disobedience.
• 21:17
  Cheryl: You know, and particularly, look at this track record, how hard it is to fight that prejudice.
• 21:24
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:25
  Cheryl: And I found I had to fight it sometimes because we have to grow up with our children.
• 21:30
  Cheryl: Absolutely.
• 21:30
  Cheryl: I had to fight.
• 21:31
  Cheryl: Not being quick on the trigger with my harder children and easier on the ones.
• 21:37
  Cheryl: Let's say this one lies and disobeys ten times a week.
• 21:41
  Cheryl: This one only does it three times a week.
• 21:43
  Cheryl: I might be faster to jump at the harder one trying to stop them.
• 21:48
  Cheryl: And then go, Oh, come on.
• 21:49
  Cheryl: They only did three times a week.
• 21:51
  Cheryl: I'm just saying my own prejudice.
• 21:52
  Cheryl: You're on high alert.
• 21:53
  Cheryl: to bring that high alert down.
• 21:55
  Cheryl: That's good.
• 21:55
  Cheryl: That is a good way to say it.
• 21:57
  Ellen: And I think it's really hard, I mean, when I was a parent, coming from a strong male point of view, I just assumed my kids always lied to me, you know, and they had to change my mind.
• 22:07
  Ellen: I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say that to their face, but whatever.
• 22:11
  Ellen: Yeah.
• 22:11
  Christie: You know?
• 22:11
  Christie: Well, and that's really good because that kind of goes along with what I was going to say.
• 22:15
  Christie: Something I, I was kind of the opposite.
• 22:18
  Christie: I, I didn't think my kids would lie.
• 22:21
  Christie: I probably trusted my kids too much.
• 22:23
  Christie: And so now that we're all in our adult life together, I'm hearing about a whole lot of confessionals and at first, and I think this is what I would say to this mom is, at first it was heartbreaking for me to hear my kids confessionals.
• 22:38
  Christie: You know, when they would say, Oh, you thought I was doing this, and I was actually doing that.
• 22:41
  Christie: Yes, now that they're telling me, and I think, Oh, gosh, I failed.
• 22:45
  Christie: I really missed the mark.
• 22:47
  Christie: I, you know, I was a horrible mom.
• 22:50
  Christie: And I've just come to terms with the fact that Your kids are going to do dumb stuff.
• 22:56
  Christie: Yeah, right.
• 22:56
  Christie: I mean, they're just, they're going to mess up.
• 22:58
  Christie: And so that was actually a healthier place to be, Ellen, I think, for you to assume your kids were little liars.
• 23:04
  Christie: Because I, I just thought, Oh, how could you do this to me after all I've done for you?
• 23:09
  Christie: You know, were the first thoughts that came to mind.
• 23:12
  Christie: And the, giving my kids the freedom to be human and to have, you know, flaws and to have struggles that they struggle with.
• 23:20
  Christie: Yep.
• 23:20
  Christie: It has been a journey for me.
• 23:22
  Ellen: And they have to take ownership of it, because that's what we really want to do as parents, say, this is the better way to do things.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: Mm
• 23:31
  Ellen: hmm.
• 23:31
  Ellen: And you need to decide, do you want to take ownership of it?
• 23:34
  Ellen: Right.
• 23:34
  Ellen: You can go this way over here, and it's going to be a lot harder to get to the end of the race.
• 23:40
  Ellen: Or you can do some of these things and it makes the race a little easier to run.
• 23:44
  Christie: And giving them the freedom and responsibility both of that.
• 23:48
  Christie: I mean, I think if this mom's anything like me, the part of the exhaustion is the personal wound that she's taking on because of her daughter's behavior.
• 23:58
  Christie: Yes.
• 23:59
  Christie: That it feels very personal.
• 24:00
  Christie: And it
• 24:00
  Ellen: probably is a little bit yes and a little bit no.
• 24:03
  Ellen: I mean, I don't know, I'm just asking.
• 24:05
  Ellen: I'm doing it in general, but I know that if, as a strong willed person, anytime people start laying down too many rules, rather than just asking me to do something, and, you know, If I blow it, don't turn it into a ten, you know, if I said, if I said, yeah, did you sneak and get candy?
• 24:25
  Ellen: No, no, I didn't do that.
• 24:27
  Ellen: Well, you got chocolate all over your face.
• 24:29
  Ellen: Well, rather than turn that into a major high crime, you know, just go, yeah, I know it's really hard because I really like candy too, but I'm just trying to help you not to eat so much candy so you don't have to go to the dentist very often, you know, and kind of because stronger willed.
• 24:45
  Ellen: Determine people need explanations.
• 24:48
  Ellen: They because they're not compliant.
• 24:50
  Ellen: They need to know why you want them to do things Sometimes as a parent we feel like we don't owe them a reason But if you're having struggles with your kid telling you the truth Sometimes if you give them the reason up front why you want them to do that then that allows them to make some choices
• 25:06
  Christie: Well, and I love that response that you're giving because it's so compassionate and so relatable saying I, I struggle.
• 25:14
  Christie: I may not be lying, but I struggle with doing the right thing sometimes, too, and that just means a lot.
• 25:20
  Christie: to a child, I think, and I know this person would have been offended if I'd even used the word child because they're getting close to the age of being peers with their mom and, and to be able to relate that way with their struggle to do the right thing would be really meaningful.
• 25:35
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 25:35
  Cheryl: And I'm listening to you and going, yes, because she said, what do I do about my daughter's
• 25:40
  Carol: heart That needs to be the priority.
• 25:43
  Carol: Right.
• 25:44
  Carol: And, you know, if she becomes a.
• 25:47
  Carol: World famous hacker and, you know, and her skills were really impressive in court on CNN or whatever.
• 25:56
  Carol: Okay.
• 25:57
  Carol: But let's work on the relationship and particularly I'm thinking for this mom because she's a compliant bring it way Way don't make it a ten
• 26:07
  Ellen: right
• 26:07
  Cheryl: way down and work so hard.
• 26:10
  Cheryl: You're talking about affirming Affirming and engaging and tell her
• 26:15
  Ellen: what a great hacker.
• 26:16
  Ellen: She is.
• 26:16
  Ellen: I mean those, you know, I would have said okay you're in trouble for some things here.
• 26:20
  Ellen: But that was really impressive with your computer skills.
• 26:24
  Christie: And that's very true.
• 26:26
  Christie: Making light of it doesn't necessarily endorse the behavior.
• 26:32
  Cheryl: Maybe not making light, but not catastrophizing.
• 26:35
  Cheryl: Right.
• 26:35
  Cheryl: Yeah, that's a great thing about it and saying, wow.
• 26:39
  Cheryl: I would have no idea how to do that.
• 26:42
  Cheryl: That your conversations are as relaxed as we are right here rather than coming into it thinking I've ruined my daughter, my daughter is ruined, our relationship is ruined.
• 26:53
  Cheryl: Because you
• 26:54
  Ellen: are ruining your relationship if you're constantly looking through your child through a certain lens.
• 27:00
  Ellen: And you're still hurting that child because you're constantly bringing up in their mind everything they've done wrong.
• 27:06
  Ellen: Okay,
• 27:07
  Cheryl: so let me ask you this to our resident strong willed
• 27:10
  Carol: So let's say one of these things, whatever it is, where she's sneaked something in and she's done something and very clearly, okay.
• 27:18
  Carol: Um.
• 27:20
  Carol: Would it be appropriate when you talk about say, however, in talking all about this and everything else, there do need to be some consequences.
• 27:28
  Carol: Would it be appropriate to say, what do you think the consequences
• 27:30
  Ellen: would be?
• 27:30
  Ellen: Oh yeah, that's the best way to do it, is let your kid figure out the consequences.
• 27:35
  Ellen: But also we think, especially in a situation when you're starting, your child's pulling away from you because they feel like you're being too hard on them.
• 27:41
  Ellen: Being overbearing with too many rules and different children.
• 27:45
  Cheryl: Because
• 27:46
  Ellen: if you're compliant, you're happy because you know the rules.
• 27:49
  Ellen: You know what to do.
• 27:50
  Ellen: If you're a strong willed person, you just go, Oh, you just, you just put 10 fences around my tiny,
• 27:57
  Christie: you
• 27:57
  Ellen: know,
• 27:57
  Christie: well, and, and, and.
• 27:58
  Christie: I know this has been a lifelong pattern, but at 14, they're starting to, and she's probably been at this mindset for a while, but starting to decide what their moral code is in comparison to her parents, and I mean, two, two people that are decently good people can still have it.
• 28:19
  Christie: Some gray area that they disagree on what the moral or ethical, I mean, my husband and I, all the time there's something I'm like, I can't believe you did that.
• 28:26
  Christie: That's horrible.
• 28:27
  Christie: And he's like, it's fine.
• 28:28
  Christie: It's not that big of a deal.
• 28:29
  Christie: You know, whether it be like returning something to the store that, you know, unethical thoughts that we might have on things.
• 28:36
  Christie: This, this child may be starting to feel like mom's uptight about these issues.
• 28:42
  Christie: I disagree.
• 28:43
  Christie: And there might be some wiggle room in there too.
• 28:46
  Christie: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Christie: To start saying what if as a parent, what do you think I should do with this?
• 28:52
  Christie: That's great.
• 28:53
  Ellen: And also Why did you feel the need to do that?
• 28:56
  Ellen: You know, here's what I said not to do So why did you feel like you had to or wanted to do it?
• 29:01
  Ellen: And what did you get out of it by doing it?
• 29:03
  Cheryl: Okay, and but what
• 29:04
  Carol: this mom
• 29:04
  Cheryl: gonna have to do Is be transparent and genuine and honest Open and relaxed enough.
• 29:12
  Cheryl: Yeah, so it's not an interrogation.
• 29:14
  Cheryl: No.
• 29:15
  Cheryl: It's a conversation.
• 29:16
  Cheryl: Hey, let's go out and get ice cream and then let's really talk about this.
• 29:21
  Cheryl: Because I do see releasing you as my job.
• 29:24
  Cheryl: But I also have to walk with you and parent you.
• 29:27
  Cheryl: Then you bring it way down.
• 29:29
  Cheryl: And
• 29:29
  Christie: that's circling back to the respect issue.
• 29:32
  Christie: Yes, sure is.
• 29:32
  Christie: That she's probably wanting.
• 29:34
  Christie: And I think some of the most fruitful conversations I've had with my kids have been those times that I, I was able to invite some compassion from them as me, to me as the parent so that I could let them see a little bit of a peek behind the curtain and say, Hey, you know, here's the deal.
• 29:54
  Christie: I still have to give you a consequence because I'm a parent.
• 29:56
  Christie: Okay.
• 29:57
  Christie: But see
• 29:57
  Cheryl: what I hear in that is that shows so much respect.
• 30:01
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 30:02
  Cheryl: I'm not going to say, you're the bad little child, go sit in the corner, but saying, hey, come on.
• 30:07
  Cheryl: You're kind of inviting them into your life a little more
• 30:11
  Christie: Right.
• 30:12
  Christie: Because it would be similar to, you know, maybe you had a job where you were really close friends with the person who happened to be your superior.
• 30:20
  Christie: Yeah.
• 30:20
  Christie: You know, they would have to come to you and say, Gosh, I hate to tell you this, but I'm going to have to let you go, you know, or I'm going to have to not give you the raise or whatever, even though they're your superior, they're your friend, and there's a role to fill there.
• 30:33
  Ellen: And, you know, sometimes we think that our kids will do okay if we give them enough rules.
• 30:38
  Christie: You
• 30:40
  Ellen: know, and they never, most of the time, maybe with the compliant kid that does, because it gives them security.
• 30:45
  Ellen: Because they go, okay, here's the Ten Commandments of my life.
• 30:48
  Ellen: But it's not the way to release our children.
• 30:50
  Ellen: No, right.
• 30:50
  Ellen: And it's not the way to develop a person.
• 30:53
  Cheryl: I mean, it's the same, like, politically.
• 30:57
  Cheryl: I wouldn't want to live in a country, or you look at, uh, 1984, or any of those where they have all the rules Hunger Games, or any of those dystopian.
• 31:07
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 31:08
  Cheryl: Where they have all the rules and you have this nice, regulated life and you don't have to worry about it.
• 31:13
  Cheryl: Mm hmm.
• 31:14
  Cheryl: But you're
• 31:17
  Christie: Well, and now at my kid's age is now looking back, there are so many hills that I really wanted to die on that some of those confessionals I was talking about come from those hills Yes.
• 31:29
  Christie: And I think, why did I care so much?
• 31:32
  Christie: Like, it wasn't a, it wasn't that big of a deal, now, looking back, but it sure seemed like it at the time.
• 31:38
  Christie: Have a
• 31:38
  Ellen: sense of humor when you get your kids in the teen years, and you won't lose your mind quite as much.
• 31:44
  Ellen: You have to have, you have to figure out, Everything is not, like you said, Christy, a hill to die on.
• 31:50
  Ellen: And I think that happens.
• 31:51
  Ellen: You just kind of go, Oh, my kids lied to me three times this week.
• 31:55
  Ellen: They are a liar.
• 31:56
  Christie: Right.
• 31:56
  Christie: And it comes from a good place.
• 31:58
  Christie: We want to do a good job.
• 31:59
  Christie: We want to be good parents, but
• 32:01
  Ellen: the opening book of the Bible.
• 32:03
  Ellen: Gives us the two liars who sat in the Garden of Eden, you know, they stood before God and said, Oh, no, we didn't do it, it wasn't us.
• 32:12
  Cheryl: So this a brokenness deep inside the human race.
• 32:14
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 32:15
  Cheryl: And we do have boundaries of time.
• 32:18
  Cheryl: This has gone a long time, but this has been fantastic.
• 32:22
  Cheryl: Where were you all when I was raising my kids?
• 32:25
  Cheryl: I wish y'all could have spoken.
• 32:26
  Cheryl: Where was I when I was raising my kids?
• 32:29
  Cheryl: The smarter me.
• 32:30
  Cheryl: We're
• 32:30
  Christie: figuring it out.
• 32:31
  Christie: Yes.
• 32:32
  Ellen: as
• 32:32
  Christie: we go.
• 32:33
  Ellen: it's the worst.
• 32:34
  Ellen: Learn as you go.
• 32:35
  Ellen: Job.
• 32:36
  Ellen: Possibly.
• 32:37
  Ellen: If only we could go
• 32:38
  Christie: get psychology degrees real fast before we have children.
• 32:41
  Cheryl: Laugh Okay.
• 32:43
  Cheryl: But remember, listeners, hang in there.
• 32:47
  Cheryl: Keep loving, keep persevering because it's worth it.
• 32:57
  As I mentioned during our recorded conversation, I never expected our discussion to take the direction that it did initially.
• 33:05
  I was viewing the parent's struggle with their child through a one dimensional lens instead of lifting the surface issues to really consider what was beneath, and I love the emphasis on showing respect.
• 33:19
  Respect for the child instead of just focusing on their behavior.
• 33:24
  Why not take a moment this week to observe if respect underlies your corrections and interactions with your children.
• 33:32
  Pause and consider if there might be something deeper than what you're just seeing or reacting to.
• 33:38
  Man, parenting is undeniably complex, yet such an incredibly rewarding journey.
• 33:46
  We'd love to hear from you.
• 33:48
  Reach out to us on social media, visit our website, email us at contact at theparentingpodcast.
• 33:55
  com.
• 33:56
  Here at TPP, it's our honor to walk alongside you and encourage you in your parenting journey, even as we continue to learn ourselves.
• 34:06
  I look forward to reconnecting with you again next week.
• 34:10
  Take care.