Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Inside the Gang Crisis: A Former Cop Speaks Out | Pat Boyle

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Inside the Gang Crisis: A Former Cop Speaks Out | Pat Boyle · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Approche production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand. For a long time, there's a been a
0:19
Speaker 2: perception that youth is out of control. You can find
0:22
Speaker 2: graffiti on the walls of Pompeii from five hundred BC
0:26
Speaker 2: bemoaning the lack of respect from young men about society's
0:29
Speaker 2: norms and engaging in what we might call gang culture. Today,
0:33
Speaker 2: these days, we have a pervading sense of crisis about
0:36
Speaker 2: youth crime, shoplifting, ram raids, home invasions, and gang crime.
0:43
Speaker 2: Almost daily, we have stories in the news of violent
0:46
Speaker 2: confrontations between machete wielding gangs in the streets and shopping centers.
0:51
Speaker 2: Seventeen ages have been charged with murder after stabbing deaths
0:54
Speaker 2: of two boys in Melbourne. Young men breaking you to
0:58
Speaker 2: homes to steal vehicles and lead the police on wild
1:01
Speaker 2: and dangerous pursuits.
1:02
Speaker 1: So gunman is on the run this morning after daylight
1:05
Speaker 1: execution style shooting of a twenty one year old man.
1:09
Speaker 2: We have a court system that ours on the side
1:11
Speaker 2: of bail. Too often. We have repeat offenders whose lines
1:14
Speaker 2: are destined to be lived in jails. What's the answer?
1:20
Speaker 2: Former Victoria policeman Pat Boyle warned about the rising tide
1:23
Speaker 2: of gang culture in Victoria almost twenty years ago. As
1:28
Speaker 2: a cop specializing in street gangs, he could see the
1:31
Speaker 2: future we're living today. He wrote a master's thesis, the
1:35
Speaker 2: first ever undertaken in Australia, which set out the problem.
1:39
Speaker 2: Did they listen to him? I'll let Pat answer that.
1:43
Speaker 2: Welcome to real crime, Pat.
1:45
Speaker 1: Thanks Adam, and thanks for the introduction.
1:47
Speaker 2: Absolutely pleasure. Great career puts you on the cold face
1:52
Speaker 2: of these sort of issues. When did you first start
1:54
Speaker 2: to see what we now call a gang problem emerging
1:58
Speaker 2: in Victoria in two.
2:00
Speaker 1: Thousand and three? Was the first time I saw a
2:03
Speaker 1: rising concern. I was seeing things happening that weren't the
2:06
Speaker 1: norm in Victoria. And basically at the time, I was
2:09
Speaker 1: inspector in charge of the Ation squad and I was
2:12
Speaker 1: seeing escalation in violence Asian on Asian situation, usually Vietnamese
2:18
Speaker 1: and a triple shooting in Chinatown and what started my interest.
2:23
Speaker 1: So I got a call out to that event and
2:25
Speaker 1: then from there I saw three more incidents, drive by
2:29
Speaker 1: shootings at restaurants, gangs meeting to have a fight and
2:34
Speaker 1: basically finding a location and then deciding to move away
2:39
Speaker 1: from that location, and then the gang then followed each
2:41
Speaker 1: other to another location, and one guy popped out of
2:43
Speaker 1: the roof of the sun roof and started shooting at
2:46
Speaker 1: the gang behind him. So it was just something that
2:49
Speaker 1: wasn't the norm for us, and so I started creating interest,
2:54
Speaker 1: and so I started looking into gang behavior, and it
2:58
Speaker 1: all sort of moved from there. I undertook a Churchill
3:01
Speaker 1: fellowship and went overseas and looked at the problems in
3:05
Speaker 1: the UK and Hong Kong and New York and Canada
3:09
Speaker 1: for three months and came back, and then I decided
3:13
Speaker 1: to take it even further and undertake a master's degree.
3:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised to hear you say that this gang
3:20
Speaker 2: problem was only apparent in the early two thousands. I
3:23
Speaker 2: think Victoria has done a roaring trading gangs going back
3:27
Speaker 2: to Squezy Taylor and the Painters and Doggars and all
3:30
Speaker 2: kinds of gangs we've seen. But what makes what you
3:33
Speaker 2: were seeing in this period more distinctive than what we've
3:36
Speaker 2: seen before the organized crime of Victoria.
3:38
Speaker 1: The extreme violence was probably the difference. Obviously, back in
3:42
Speaker 1: those days that you mentioned that gangs were present but
3:45
Speaker 1: it was a different situation then. You know, a lot
3:48
Speaker 1: of that situation was more organized crime. This situation isn't that.
3:52
Speaker 1: It's spontaneous incidents or opportunistic in a number of cases,
3:58
Speaker 1: or sometimes planned as well. You know, but the fear
4:01
Speaker 1: factor is the big thing at the moment, and the rapid,
4:03
Speaker 1: rapid rise. It's just escalated so fast.
4:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we've seen people describe the concerns about gangs
4:11
Speaker 2: as being a moral panic. That was probably a few
4:14
Speaker 2: years ago. Now we're seeing it writ large on the
4:16
Speaker 2: streets where it is a serious problem. It's gone well
4:19
Speaker 2: beyond the moral panic. What could you see coming in
4:22
Speaker 2: those years that really made you focus on studying this
4:25
Speaker 2: problem as it was emerging.
4:27
Speaker 1: Well, the reason I undertook the study is because lack
4:31
Speaker 1: of knowledge and then lack of ability for a response,
4:35
Speaker 1: and also denial by command at that stage too, you know,
4:39
Speaker 1: we didn't have gangs. We had use who were causing trouble,
4:42
Speaker 1: so to speak, groups and that gang word was a
4:46
Speaker 1: bit of a dirty word that was used and they
4:48
Speaker 1: didn't like it. But behind the scenes they agreed that
4:53
Speaker 1: there was a gang, but there wasn't politically correct to
4:56
Speaker 1: say that. But in time, it got to the stage
4:58
Speaker 1: where well you've really got no choice here, and then
5:01
Speaker 1: you've got me in the background saying well, we've got
5:03
Speaker 1: this situation. With a change of command, it went from
5:07
Speaker 1: Christine Nixon to ken Lay, and ken Lay he knew
5:11
Speaker 1: me very well and approached me and says, you know,
5:13
Speaker 1: what is the situation? He started changing things. Obviously, in
5:17
Speaker 1: between that, with Simon Overland, it's another story again, he
5:21
Speaker 1: didn't show any interest either. We formed a gang task
5:24
Speaker 1: Force within the Asian Squad in response to that triple
5:27
Speaker 1: shooting because I note I saw that there was a problem,
5:30
Speaker 1: met with command at the time and they decided that
5:33
Speaker 1: I was right, let's look at this situation. We had
5:36
Speaker 1: a task force running for about a year and that
5:38
Speaker 1: task force agreed that there was a gang problem. We're
5:42
Speaker 1: looking specifically at Asian crime at the time, and out
5:46
Speaker 1: of that came nothing. A really good report said we
5:49
Speaker 1: had a problem. My recommendations, and one of those recommendations
5:52
Speaker 1: was to increase my crew by one by sergeant and
5:56
Speaker 1: three to specialize and keep working on gangs because you've
5:59
Speaker 1: started something and now you've identified it, so you need
6:02
Speaker 1: to keep searching.
6:04
Speaker 2: And that was not back knocked back.
6:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was noted back.
6:08
Speaker 2: So all you were after was one unit of three
6:11
Speaker 2: people and a sergeant.
6:13
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.
6:14
Speaker 2: What would that have costed?
6:16
Speaker 1: Oh jeez, well probably four and a grand I suppose
6:19
Speaker 1: when I think about it, when you sort put all
6:21
Speaker 1: the wages together in superannuation. But the point was that
6:25
Speaker 1: we had a task force to establish whether we had
6:28
Speaker 1: a gang problem, and then when you prove you have,
6:31
Speaker 1: you then say you don't do anything about it because
6:35
Speaker 1: you just walk away, which doesn't make sense to me
6:37
Speaker 1: at all.
6:37
Speaker 2: Because we did see various high ranking police officers stand
6:41
Speaker 2: up in front of the media and say there are
6:43
Speaker 2: no gangs in Victoria. You're right. It was political correctness,
6:47
Speaker 2: and what their members were seeing on the streets was
6:49
Speaker 2: very different. Yes, Why do you think that they were
6:53
Speaker 2: so wrapped up in political correctness when you could see,
6:56
Speaker 2: for instance, the overrepresentation in the crime stats of young
7:00
Speaker 2: men in particular, and assaults specifically.
7:05
Speaker 1: I really wish I could answer that. It seemed common
7:08
Speaker 1: sense to say, you know, you're saying this to the public,
7:11
Speaker 1: but the public can see that it's there, so why
7:14
Speaker 1: would you deny that? And it was just avoidance of
7:17
Speaker 1: using that word, even though they knew that that was
7:20
Speaker 1: the situation. Look in some cases it wasn't a gang
7:24
Speaker 1: at all. It was just a bunch of use that
7:27
Speaker 1: were causing problems, you know. And unfortunately we use the
7:30
Speaker 1: gang words too loosely, and I was very much pushing
7:33
Speaker 1: for that too, that not to use it as strongly
7:36
Speaker 1: as what it has been used by the press, and
7:38
Speaker 1: so ensure through intelligence led policing that we've established this
7:42
Speaker 1: as a gang and then say it's a gang. My
7:45
Speaker 1: cycle gangs, you can identify them quite easily, and you
7:50
Speaker 1: use the names of those particular gangs quite loosely as well,
7:53
Speaker 1: because they've been around for so long. But with street gangs,
7:55
Speaker 1: when you start naming names, you then cause influence and
7:59
Speaker 1: you cause interest, and other kids then join that gang.
8:03
Speaker 1: They gravitate towards it because it's the it's the flavor
8:06
Speaker 1: of the month.
8:07
Speaker 2: You are so right. I did my research. I should
8:09
Speaker 2: have got a PhD for it. Going on the outloor
8:11
Speaker 2: motorcycle clubs, and I called them clubs deliberately because in
8:14
Speaker 2: the media it was all about outlaw motorcycle gangs, and
8:18
Speaker 2: what I was seeing inside a couple of clubs like
8:20
Speaker 2: the finx Hell's Angels. Was this media hype was making
8:24
Speaker 2: these clubs more attractive. I was seeing a particular things.
8:28
Speaker 2: There was a queue of people trying to join.
8:30
Speaker 1: There's a recruiting drive. That's what it is. And that's
8:33
Speaker 1: why I got very nervous. Whenever the media used to
8:36
Speaker 1: call me about particular gangs and who is it, I said,
8:39
Speaker 1: I'll never tell you that, because you know, once it
8:41
Speaker 1: gets the court, well well it would be discussed there.
8:44
Speaker 1: But in between, you're actually providing kudos, and it's free advertising.
8:50
Speaker 1: You can't pay for this. You couldn't pay for the
8:52
Speaker 1: amount of publicity you get from what's seen in the
8:54
Speaker 1: newspapers and on the news. In some new paper articles
8:59
Speaker 1: us to show the lists of gangs across the across
9:03
Speaker 1: the state and where they're located. Thinking, oh my god,
9:06
Speaker 1: you just you can't pay for this.
9:08
Speaker 2: You really can't. I mean, I've read your thesis all
9:11
Speaker 2: one hundred and ninety five pages. Some of it are
9:13
Speaker 2: skin but one of the real things you zero in
9:16
Speaker 2: on is the question of definition or description. Explain the
9:20
Speaker 2: difference with.
9:22
Speaker 1: A definition you're locked in, and I'll give you sort
9:24
Speaker 1: of an idea. Say, look, I always use a description
9:28
Speaker 1: of say killer going back thirty years ago, is that
9:31
Speaker 1: the same sat Kilda today? No, it's not. It's totally different.
9:35
Speaker 1: It's trendy to be there. Yes, there are still problems,
9:38
Speaker 1: as with any any suburb, and unfortunately some people gravitate
9:41
Speaker 1: towards that suburb. But what it was, if we described
9:45
Speaker 1: it thirty years ago and stuck with that definition, we'd
9:48
Speaker 1: have a definition that's totally wrong and it's not what
9:52
Speaker 1: it was. It's the same with gangs. Unfortunately, with a definition,
9:56
Speaker 1: it actually locks you in. In the US, they have
10:00
Speaker 1: definitions for gangs and that's then a legislative requirement, and
10:04
Speaker 1: then sometimes that's doesn't necessarily match what the gang now
10:08
Speaker 1: looks like in comparison to what the situation was before.
10:12
Speaker 1: So it was easier to go with a descriptor, so
10:15
Speaker 1: you can actually give an overview to say, well, this
10:18
Speaker 1: is what you're seeing, this is what's possible it is,
10:22
Speaker 1: and it's gravitating towards that. So it's basically a number
10:25
Speaker 1: of academics have agreed with me in relation to what
10:29
Speaker 1: I have to say, and there's other academics that went
10:32
Speaker 1: along this line as well that said that descriptors are
10:35
Speaker 1: a better way to go because times change and you're
10:38
Speaker 1: locked into something, so you're.
10:40
Speaker 2: Looking more at the behaviors and the anecdotes and the
10:45
Speaker 2: lived reality rather than some sort of high fluding definition.
10:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, because some definitions in the US locked in descriptors
10:53
Speaker 1: and a name of the gang and clothing and tags
10:58
Speaker 1: and all those sort of things. Now, you see a
11:01
Speaker 1: lot of our kids, you know, the only thing that
11:02
Speaker 1: we see with gangs now at the moment or this
11:04
Speaker 1: gang behavior is they're all dressed in black. That's about it.
11:08
Speaker 1: Whereas there is a uniformity in the US with types
11:12
Speaker 1: of clothing that would wear. And in some cases these
11:15
Speaker 1: gangs don't necessarily have a name that's sassarily as well,
11:18
Speaker 1: you know, they're not necessary. They're shoying away from that
11:21
Speaker 1: because that's an identity. It attracts police attention.
11:25
Speaker 2: Yes, you've got a couple of definitions or descriptors in
11:28
Speaker 2: your thesis, which I think is sort of useful. I'll
11:30
Speaker 2: run this one past you. A gang is a group
11:32
Speaker 2: of recurrently associating individuals with identifiable leadership and internal organization,
11:38
Speaker 2: identifying with or claiming control over territory in the community,
11:42
Speaker 2: and engaging either individually or collectively in violent or other
11:45
Speaker 2: forms of illegal behavior. Is that a useful one?
11:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good. But the one I came up with
11:53
Speaker 1: is a street gang is a durable, street based group
11:56
Speaker 1: whose members collectively exhibit unity and identity through their behavior
12:01
Speaker 1: and criminal activity. So the other one's quite long windowed
12:05
Speaker 1: minds two sentences. But then with that description, I then
12:08
Speaker 1: make sure with my descriptor that each part of it
12:12
Speaker 1: is broken down into durable, street based collective unity and
12:15
Speaker 1: behavior and what those actually mean, so that people can't
12:19
Speaker 1: construe their own theories about what I'm trying to say.
12:23
Speaker 1: But the main part is a unity and criminal behavior,
12:27
Speaker 1: and that's really what it's all about. But the unity
12:30
Speaker 1: part of it is quite obvious. And the durability that's
12:33
Speaker 1: another thing as well, because I say gang today, gone tomorrow.
12:37
Speaker 1: So you've got a bunch of kids that are allegedly
12:40
Speaker 1: a gang and then they just disappear. But it's got
12:42
Speaker 1: to be over time. It can't be oh, they just
12:45
Speaker 1: formed today and then suddenly the gang. They've got to
12:47
Speaker 1: be some sort of history with that particular group that
12:50
Speaker 1: say that they're gang. But I have this but only
12:52
Speaker 1: as a guide to people a guide to the police
12:56
Speaker 1: officers to make a decision about what they've got because
12:59
Speaker 1: we have no legislation that makes an offense to be
13:01
Speaker 1: in a gang.
13:03
Speaker 2: Well, we've tried that areous states, These addy association laws,
13:07
Speaker 2: mainly with the biker clubs. They really haven't worked. I mean,
13:09
Speaker 2: we've driven them underground mostly. So I mean, is that
13:12
Speaker 2: political policing again, people trying to quell a sense of
13:16
Speaker 2: disorder in the community rather than actually solve the problem.
13:20
Speaker 1: Yes, I suppose that's right. But we have that situation
13:23
Speaker 1: here where we've tried to bring our own gang legislation
13:26
Speaker 1: in to tackle omcgs, but unfortunately with our Human Rights Charter,
13:30
Speaker 1: or I say unfortunately, I don't mean it that way,
13:32
Speaker 1: but it has caused a problem for us that to
13:35
Speaker 1: bring in some of the laws they say available in Queensland.
13:38
Speaker 1: We've tried to bring them into Victoria, but the Human
13:41
Speaker 1: Rights Charter won't allow it, and we've worked around it,
13:44
Speaker 1: worked around and still haven't been able to address that.
13:48
Speaker 1: So so of our powers aren't as strong as what
13:50
Speaker 1: they should be, or what we'd like them to be.
13:53
Speaker 2: But can you legislate that sort of reaction? Because I've
13:57
Speaker 2: seen most of those laws around the country get to
13:59
Speaker 2: the High Court and they get knocked down, and often
14:02
Speaker 2: the High Court justice says, well, listen, all the the
14:05
Speaker 2: existing powers you need, you already have under the Crimes Act.
14:09
Speaker 2: You should be going stronger on criminal proceeds type legislation.
14:13
Speaker 2: You should do more about local policing. And I remember
14:16
Speaker 2: one of the old coppers I know, Brian Francis Murphy,
14:20
Speaker 2: he said, listen, with these biking gangs, all you need
14:22
Speaker 2: is a local sergeant on a bicycle to go past
14:25
Speaker 2: every week and work out what's going on. So I
14:28
Speaker 2: think we have abdicated the streets to the gangs.
14:32
Speaker 1: Yes, right, Look, I think I remember quite some years
14:36
Speaker 1: ago when I was in the Organized Crimes myself of
14:39
Speaker 1: the inspector, sat down and had a chat and looked
14:41
Speaker 1: at the overseas situation FMG situation, and we said, look,
14:45
Speaker 1: you know, why don't we call them in and have
14:47
Speaker 1: a chat and we're going to do a run between
14:50
Speaker 1: one location to another. And we know everyone talked to
14:54
Speaker 1: West Australia how they handle it and so on, but
14:56
Speaker 1: no one's ever sat down and just have a chat
14:58
Speaker 1: with them. And he looked at me and he said
15:00
Speaker 1: that's not a bad idea. So we did that and
15:03
Speaker 1: that's how it was started. Having that, having to chat
15:06
Speaker 1: with them. They thought well, you know, they thought, well, geez,
15:08
Speaker 1: something's going on here. Why are you calling us in anyway?
15:11
Speaker 1: We sat from Danny said, oh, no one's ever sat
15:13
Speaker 1: down with us before, and well it's a good start,
15:16
Speaker 1: isn't it. And so you get sort of one they
15:19
Speaker 1: know you're looking at them, and two, we just want
15:21
Speaker 1: to sort out a problem here because you're going to
15:23
Speaker 1: cause chaos. And that's when things have developed over time.
15:27
Speaker 1: But you know, it hasn't addressed the problem totally. But
15:30
Speaker 1: that's sometimes we just missed the point. We should just
15:33
Speaker 1: sit down and talk to people and say, right, how look,
15:35
Speaker 1: warn them, address it and say well you're on notice.
15:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think getting back to that difference between definition
15:43
Speaker 2: and descriptives is particularly apt with the bikey clubs. Yes,
15:47
Speaker 2: where my experience was going inside that there. It wasn't
15:51
Speaker 2: a criminal unit per se. There were people who had
15:54
Speaker 2: criminal records in there, but you had cells within the
15:58
Speaker 2: club that was doing business with other clubs, even some
16:02
Speaker 2: of their real rivals. For the business was being done
16:05
Speaker 2: sell to sell rather than the clubs being the unit
16:08
Speaker 2: of the crime, and that to me was a big
16:11
Speaker 2: stumbling block to do anything meaningful.
16:14
Speaker 1: Yes, you're right, you're right, But as with anything of that,
16:18
Speaker 1: it's for their identity to remain or to be ongoing.
16:23
Speaker 1: Money is the factor, you know. They don't just have
16:27
Speaker 1: club fees just like you have at a bowling club.
16:30
Speaker 1: They have to survive, and obviously they do survive through
16:34
Speaker 1: criminal activity. But as with anything, you know, the people
16:39
Speaker 1: who join that are looking for a sense of friendship, family,
16:43
Speaker 1: loyalty to themselves and to others. And what I find
16:48
Speaker 1: though in time, if something goes astray, they get arrested,
16:53
Speaker 1: caught up in some other activity. Well basically they're white,
16:57
Speaker 1: so suddenly there's unity is there, But this unity is
16:59
Speaker 1: suddenly gone. You know, Wait till you go into prison
17:01
Speaker 1: and see how often they're coming to visit you, you know
17:03
Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
17:05
Speaker 2: It does vary from club to club, but I think
17:07
Speaker 2: you're dead right. And I was seeing guys in there
17:09
Speaker 2: whose decision to join was based around family breakdown, often
17:14
Speaker 2: lack of a strong male role model, often domestic violence
17:18
Speaker 2: against mothers. I had one guy who told me, you know,
17:21
Speaker 2: mum was getting bashed by her husband for years until
17:24
Speaker 2: one day at Christmas dinner he bashed her again. I
17:27
Speaker 2: went out and got a shovel and bashed him over
17:28
Speaker 2: the head. That was the last I saw of my family.
17:30
Speaker 2: Then I went to jail and I met Bikey's, who
17:33
Speaker 2: I felt were much more sturdy role models than what
17:36
Speaker 2: I've been exposed to.
17:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's looking for something and now he's found
17:40
Speaker 1: an answer. And that's sometimes like his and or street
17:44
Speaker 1: gangs are looking for that loose entity that needs somewhere
17:48
Speaker 1: to go, and suddenly they throw their arms around them
17:50
Speaker 1: and now they've got a new member in their group,
17:52
Speaker 1: and now you're locked in. And the only way a
17:55
Speaker 1: lot of the times they do leave, as in that
17:57
Speaker 1: case is possibly meets a girl as a child. Besides,
18:02
Speaker 1: I can't keep going like this. Or I did a
18:04
Speaker 1: job in a side, Well, this sort of life is
18:07
Speaker 1: going to interfere with the outcome of me having this job,
18:10
Speaker 1: and so they then straight away and then there's repercussions
18:14
Speaker 1: with that as well, because I don't know that so much.
18:17
Speaker 1: With street gangs, it has happened in the US and
18:19
Speaker 1: other locations are known about Victoria, but you know with omcgs,
18:23
Speaker 1: it is a straight away. I think there's a bit
18:24
Speaker 1: there's a bit of an issue there with them in
18:26
Speaker 1: relation to initiated in initiated out so to speak.
18:30
Speaker 2: Well, you're right. I think what's happened in recent years,
18:33
Speaker 2: particularly in response to the media moral panic about this,
18:36
Speaker 2: which as I said before, has elevated the status of
18:39
Speaker 2: these clubs to criminal gangs. We've seen clubs recruiting muscle,
18:43
Speaker 2: recruiting crooks from outside their normal recruiting area, from underworld groups,
18:49
Speaker 2: and these people get drawn in, used and spat out
18:53
Speaker 2: the other end. And I've met a few over the
18:55
Speaker 2: years who have had a very sobering experience about how
18:58
Speaker 2: that goes. It's all brotherhood and love and blood loyalty
19:02
Speaker 2: until you're in the dock by yourself, that's right.
19:05
Speaker 1: They suddenly they disappear, And that's what happens with the kids. Basically,
19:09
Speaker 1: they're looking for something that they haven't got. Sex, drugs,
19:12
Speaker 1: rock and roll, you know, the whole bit. But the
19:14
Speaker 1: main thing as they're looking for is some sort of
19:16
Speaker 1: friendship and to be seen because they're not being seen otherwise.
19:20
Speaker 1: And they join and then suddenly they're dragged into something
19:23
Speaker 1: that maybe they didn't expect to happen in the first place,
19:26
Speaker 1: that they didn't know. Well, I didn't know it was
19:28
Speaker 1: going to go this far, and it's too late then,
19:30
Speaker 1: and unfortunately then they go into the youth training system
19:33
Speaker 1: and then they're never seen a game by the rest
19:36
Speaker 1: of the game.
19:37
Speaker 2: That's true. Fortunately, the high level of dissatisfaction is an
19:42
Speaker 2: advantage for police who in certain clubs have managed to
19:44
Speaker 2: turn important members into giving evidence being informers.
19:49
Speaker 1: Oh, that's definitely right, But the hard part is trying
19:52
Speaker 1: to identify who those people are, you know. But yes,
19:55
Speaker 1: as a prime way of doing it, obviously you're getting
19:58
Speaker 1: the inside knowledge that you haven't you would have had before.
20:01
Speaker 2: How much did you gather from those sort of informers
20:04
Speaker 2: when you were run the Asian Squad, for instance.
20:07
Speaker 1: The staff I had were really really unique in the
20:11
Speaker 1: way they approached their work because our role of the
20:13
Speaker 1: Asian Squad. It was formed by the Asian community for
20:16
Speaker 1: the Asian community, because they were being extorted by their
20:19
Speaker 1: own people, and it was not the norm for them
20:22
Speaker 1: to come forward and speak to the police because of
20:25
Speaker 1: the fear factor from when they were in Vietnam. But
20:29
Speaker 1: they trusted us so over the years a squad existed
20:33
Speaker 1: for twenty one years and unfortunately under the Major Crime
20:37
Speaker 1: Review within Victoria Police it was dissolved. But it was
20:41
Speaker 1: one of those units that had the primary role of
20:44
Speaker 1: getting out into the community and meeting with them, going
20:47
Speaker 1: to all those social events. But as a result of that,
20:51
Speaker 1: we built up rapport and trust and so there would
20:55
Speaker 1: be an example would be a stabbing and that victim
21:00
Speaker 1: is in hospital. The police attend to talk to the victim.
21:04
Speaker 1: The victim's not going to tell you anything. When we
21:06
Speaker 1: come along, they identify us, they know us, they build
21:09
Speaker 1: up trust and we warn them so we'll handle this.
21:12
Speaker 1: We don't want revenge situation to him, the repercussions, and
21:16
Speaker 1: as a result of that, it's just a slow buildup
21:19
Speaker 1: of trust and then leave it with us. We will
21:22
Speaker 1: fix it. But that's why a lot of times they
21:25
Speaker 1: would only speak to members of the Asian Squad. And
21:27
Speaker 1: on top of that, my guys knew everyone. There was
21:32
Speaker 1: a murder in Collingwood Flats in the high rise towers there.
21:36
Speaker 1: Charlie Bazina came to us with pictures of three entities
21:40
Speaker 1: in the lift in the elevator and we just went bang, bang,
21:43
Speaker 1: bang and He couldn't believe it, you know, he said, well,
21:45
Speaker 1: who is that person? That person's this person and that
21:47
Speaker 1: person there that we can't see, Well, he associates with
21:50
Speaker 1: that person, so era be him, you know that sort
21:54
Speaker 1: of stuff. It was just a really good rapport and
21:56
Speaker 1: they would feel very safe coming to talk to us.
22:00
Speaker 2: Yes, that's Charlie Bizen, an ex homicide and a great
22:02
Speaker 2: detective in his own right. Another great police officer, the
22:05
Speaker 2: late great McK miller. And I'm sure you probably started
22:09
Speaker 2: your career under Mick. He used to say that police
22:11
Speaker 2: can only work with the assent of the community. When
22:14
Speaker 2: you talk about getting communities on side, that's when you
22:18
Speaker 2: get results and trust. That's kind of lacking these days.
22:21
Speaker 2: From what I can see, it.
22:23
Speaker 1: Seems to be that way. I don't know why, you know, obviously,
22:27
Speaker 1: I've been retired about three years now, but I do
22:30
Speaker 1: see on social media where officers veterans are talking to
22:35
Speaker 1: each other about different things, and some of the common
22:37
Speaker 1: things are is that these veterans, who you know, very
22:41
Speaker 1: very vast experience, and here they're seeing crimes being committed
22:44
Speaker 1: and actually reporting them. They're finding that the response to
22:48
Speaker 1: those crimes by those officers to those walk up starts
22:52
Speaker 1: for what of a better word, are none responsive and
22:56
Speaker 1: they just start to understand, don't understand what's going on.
22:59
Speaker 1: You know, you've got a cop, the most reliable witness
23:03
Speaker 1: you could possibly haveving you a head start, and it
23:06
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be happening. And I mean that's not
23:09
Speaker 1: in every case. It's not in every case, but it's
23:11
Speaker 1: just sad that's being said sometimes. You know, I love
23:17
Speaker 1: vic poll you know, it was my career for forty
23:19
Speaker 1: six years. But yeah, there are there seems to be
23:23
Speaker 1: some changes and I don't understand why. It's probably unfair
23:26
Speaker 1: to some of those people that aren't like that, but
23:29
Speaker 1: there it just seems to be some officers are seeing
23:32
Speaker 1: crimes and giving place a help start and it's not
23:37
Speaker 1: going anywhere.
23:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it must be frustrating to you. You're one of
23:42
Speaker 2: the most well qualified gang experts in the country. You
23:45
Speaker 2: were at the coal face, you were advising Victoria Police
23:49
Speaker 2: and do you think they could have done better with
23:52
Speaker 2: what we're seeing today had they adopted what you were saying?
23:57
Speaker 1: I think so. I always said when I was talking
24:00
Speaker 1: to any members of Commander, we've got an opportunity to
24:03
Speaker 1: get it right, because in the and following on for
24:06
Speaker 1: the UK, it's only grew and grew, and there were
24:11
Speaker 1: ways to approach these things this rapid rise, but we
24:16
Speaker 1: just didn't do it. We talked about it. They were
24:19
Speaker 1: pushing me in twenty fifteen when I've just about finished
24:21
Speaker 1: this thesis about my descriptor, you know, so they can
24:24
Speaker 1: use that to gather intelligence and assess properly about what
24:30
Speaker 1: the situation is. Is it a gang or isn't it
24:33
Speaker 1: And that's never still hasn't been used. And you know,
24:35
Speaker 1: along with that, in the back of my thesis, you'll
24:38
Speaker 1: see there's a document there which is a descriptor for
24:41
Speaker 1: police officers on the street, a little notebook so to speak,
24:45
Speaker 1: so you have a flick and tick. It's a prompt
24:47
Speaker 1: sheet and on the rear of that you can then
24:49
Speaker 1: look at that the answers you've got against the descriptor
24:52
Speaker 1: and say, well, possibly i've got a street gang here,
24:55
Speaker 1: and then hand it into the sergeant and then you
24:57
Speaker 1: gather the intelligence and work out, right, we've got to
25:00
Speaker 1: target that particular group, or we've got to make sure
25:02
Speaker 1: that we have the right people in place to talk
25:05
Speaker 1: with these kids. And you know, social workers. That's another
25:08
Speaker 1: issue as well, because the way it is at the
25:11
Speaker 1: moment is that the police have given the job of
25:13
Speaker 1: doing everything. You know, they're they're the social worker, mental
25:17
Speaker 1: health expert, and law enforcement. And basically what should be
25:21
Speaker 1: happening with these kids is that they're arrested, they handed
25:24
Speaker 1: straight to a social worker. Not weeks later after when
25:27
Speaker 1: it comes up for court and magistrate, kids said us,
25:30
Speaker 1: so I was this kid being nessessed yet no, Oh,
25:32
Speaker 1: there's a further delay and a further delay, And so
25:35
Speaker 1: it should be along those lines. Les's twenty minute hour
25:38
Speaker 1: where I were great friends. He always advocated for that.
25:43
Speaker 1: That's the way that it should respond. There's a priest
25:46
Speaker 1: in La father Greg Boyle, no relation, but he set
25:50
Speaker 1: up Homeboy Industries. I visited him two or three times
25:53
Speaker 1: in the US, and basically he had a situation where
25:56
Speaker 1: he would bring the kids in and basically they were
25:59
Speaker 1: looking for avenues of getting out of the gangs. But
26:02
Speaker 1: who do I talk to? And obviously the priest along
26:04
Speaker 1: with social workers, basically removing tattoos, giving them a job,
26:09
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. You got to start somewhere.
26:12
Speaker 1: And at the moment, it's just law enforcement responding and
26:17
Speaker 1: I'll just add to that. In two thousand and three,
26:19
Speaker 1: there was a woman by my name, Karen McCluskey, who
26:21
Speaker 1: was a nurse in Glasgow and Glasgow had that point
26:25
Speaker 1: that had the worst crime rate in Europe and it
26:29
Speaker 1: was all based on street gangs and kids. The police there,
26:33
Speaker 1: they brought her in to assess the situation and what
26:36
Speaker 1: she saw. She was a nurse, pluster psychologist. She saw
26:40
Speaker 1: that the police were doing their job but no one
26:42
Speaker 1: else was. So all the social workers, mental health experts,
26:46
Speaker 1: health department, all these agencies were not doing their job
26:50
Speaker 1: and so she held them to account and so there
26:53
Speaker 1: was pressure and pressure. Two years later, forty nine percent
26:57
Speaker 1: drop in the crime rate based on what she was doing.
27:01
Speaker 1: We invited her out here in twenty thirteen and she
27:04
Speaker 1: spoke at a family violence conference about crime in Barsgow.
27:09
Speaker 1: It was family violence plus violence as well on the street.
27:13
Speaker 1: She spoke again in twenty thirteen and what do we
27:16
Speaker 1: do about it? Nothing? Now, that was the response. I
27:19
Speaker 1: even think Ross Gunther, retired Deputy Commissioner. He did an
27:25
Speaker 1: article with John Sylvester. He talked about there should be
27:27
Speaker 1: a summit getting together where all these groups who have
27:31
Speaker 1: responsibilities to address this crime and work on it together.
27:36
Speaker 1: And what happened. I think clinically he was told off
27:40
Speaker 1: for approaching things that way. It was it was just crazy.
27:46
Speaker 1: It's just crazy that we are left up to doing
27:50
Speaker 1: the job when there were so many others have got
27:52
Speaker 1: responsibility to do that. They're their part.
27:56
Speaker 2: Pat, I can see how it pains you to criticize
28:00
Speaker 2: your former employees. You invested your life in Victoria Police,
28:03
Speaker 2: but you can love the organization and take issue with
28:07
Speaker 2: decisions of individuals. Yes, and I think it's great that
28:10
Speaker 2: you're speaking out now because we have this major problem.
28:13
Speaker 2: These gangs are brave and getting braver. We're seeing gangs
28:16
Speaker 2: organizing confrontations inside train stations, in shopping malls. They're running
28:21
Speaker 2: around with machetes and things. It's quite terrifying for the public.
28:25
Speaker 2: And it just seems that the police, not just in Victoria,
28:28
Speaker 2: but in New South Wales as well, probably all across
28:30
Speaker 2: the country, they're just reactive rather than trying to address
28:33
Speaker 2: the issue its source.
28:34
Speaker 1: Yes, it appears that way, and I look at the
28:38
Speaker 1: other side of it too. Is obviously resources as well,
28:40
Speaker 1: and I think the police now are sort of busier
28:43
Speaker 1: than they've ever been running from job to job. You're
28:46
Speaker 1: just like, it's just like being a clerk. You know,
28:49
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to that job, go to that job,
28:51
Speaker 1: and then some stage we'll try and work out how
28:53
Speaker 1: to address that crime. But yes, it's not the way
28:57
Speaker 1: to operate that you have to respond all the time.
28:59
Speaker 1: We should be trying to address it before it happens,
29:03
Speaker 1: and unfortunately it's just the way things are at the moment.
29:06
Speaker 2: And the political response here from the Allen government of
29:09
Speaker 2: Victoria when they've seen a machete attacks in the shopping
29:13
Speaker 2: center is to ban the machete And I'm thinking, well,
29:16
Speaker 2: Bunnings is full of murder weapons, but why don't they
29:19
Speaker 2: have switched to something else.
29:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is no different than selling spray cans under eighteen.
29:25
Speaker 1: You know, you can't buy them. You know, it's a
29:27
Speaker 1: similar thing. And unfortunately the government with this response and
29:32
Speaker 1: with the bail laws, we had the strongest bail laws
29:35
Speaker 1: and then under the Andrews government we got rid of them.
29:37
Speaker 1: And now they say we brought in these new laws.
29:40
Speaker 1: They were not new laws. They're the old ones, the
29:42
Speaker 1: old ones that we already had. You just brought them
29:45
Speaker 1: back in againsted off the paperwork and said ask you
29:47
Speaker 1: here we go, here's your laws back. But they sort
29:50
Speaker 1: of announced it like we're a bit of chessbirding, We're
29:52
Speaker 1: out to fix this problem. But it was just a
29:55
Speaker 1: revolving door for a lot of the kids. It was
29:57
Speaker 1: just a joke.
29:59
Speaker 2: Well, and you're seeing kids now, not just in Victoria,
30:01
Speaker 2: across the country getting bail on bail on bail, they're
30:05
Speaker 2: getting freed. There's an attitude which is probably waning now
30:09
Speaker 2: that once you lock a kid up, you're now locking
30:12
Speaker 2: him into a criminal future. Is that a fair comment?
30:15
Speaker 2: Do you think?
30:16
Speaker 1: It's hard to say really. We mean, there's ways of
30:19
Speaker 1: separating kids from other kids who are the problem, you know,
30:22
Speaker 1: but that's a process within the youth justice system that
30:25
Speaker 1: they've got to look at. But what seems to be
30:28
Speaker 1: happening a lot of the time, you know, all these
30:30
Speaker 1: people who are civil libertarians, which yes, they have their role,
30:34
Speaker 1: but the point is they'll be expressing their opinion about something,
30:37
Speaker 1: and if they actually looked at the facts and looked
30:39
Speaker 1: at what how many kids are within the youth justice
30:41
Speaker 1: system at the moment, There's not too many ten year
30:44
Speaker 1: olds in there, but they keep harping on about we're
30:47
Speaker 1: locking up all these really young kids. The ones that
30:49
Speaker 1: they are remanding are ones that are a real risk
30:52
Speaker 1: to the community. It's very very hard for a child
30:57
Speaker 1: to be either remanded and or sentenced to a period
31:00
Speaker 1: of imprisonment or custody. It's very very hard, and so
31:05
Speaker 1: the ones that are in there, it's actually, well, we've
31:07
Speaker 1: got no choice. We've got to protect society from these kids,
31:11
Speaker 1: and we've got to then address the behavior of those
31:13
Speaker 1: kids as well while they're in there, and how that
31:15
Speaker 1: system works. I haven't got the experience there, but that's
31:19
Speaker 1: where it's falling down. If they are then sentenced, well,
31:24
Speaker 1: they've then got to be looked at and said, well,
31:26
Speaker 1: how do we get this kid back to what he
31:29
Speaker 1: or she was before they were arrested.
31:31
Speaker 2: Well, I love also this term that we need to
31:34
Speaker 2: rehabilitate these kids. You look at some of the backgrounds,
31:37
Speaker 2: what they've been exposed to, family violence, all kinds of things.
31:40
Speaker 2: You think they've never been habilitated.
31:43
Speaker 1: No, no, sure, that's what Karen McCluskey in her research,
31:47
Speaker 1: she was finding some of these kids who were they
31:50
Speaker 1: were in care at foster care, but where they were
31:56
Speaker 1: located next door, a pedophile lived, or up the street
31:59
Speaker 1: there was another organized crime figure. So these foster parents
32:02
Speaker 1: were basically they were looking after this kid. The kid
32:05
Speaker 1: was in the middle of a melting pot of crime
32:07
Speaker 1: in that area. So there was all these little things
32:10
Speaker 1: that they should have been looking at when they're all
32:13
Speaker 1: factors about why kids get exposed to crime, or the
32:18
Speaker 1: foster parents weren't that good anyway, you know, although in
32:22
Speaker 1: it for was the money, but not to help the child.
32:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking earlier about the fact that lost souls
32:29
Speaker 2: find their way into gangs and motorcycle clubs and so forth,
32:32
Speaker 2: because there's a feeling of safety and security, and I
32:36
Speaker 2: think that's missing from our justice system. I'm old school.
32:40
Speaker 2: I think back to when my parents used to say,
32:42
Speaker 2: I'm going to send you off to a reform school
32:43
Speaker 2: if you don't start to behave and work out at school.
32:46
Speaker 2: And I have this, maybe it's a fantasy or a dream,
32:49
Speaker 2: that we could have a mentoring system based on prison farms,
32:53
Speaker 2: people getting out, not just being locked up, but actually
32:55
Speaker 2: the continuing education, working with role models, working with animals
32:59
Speaker 2: in particular. I think that's a very civilizing influence. So
33:03
Speaker 2: I think My view is we have to actually look
33:05
Speaker 2: at the punishment end to see if we can steer
33:07
Speaker 2: people in a different direction.
33:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you said too, some of these kids
33:13
Speaker 1: are the loose end and susceptible adjoining gangs. But some
33:16
Speaker 1: of them they've got no choice because it's all part
33:19
Speaker 1: of their family in the first place, and so it's
33:21
Speaker 1: just hereditary one of a better word. It's going to
33:25
Speaker 1: be a norm for them because that's where that's where
33:27
Speaker 1: they live, that's what their family does, and that's what
33:30
Speaker 1: we do.
33:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the big issues I'm seeing is also
33:33
Speaker 2: in the reporting of these events, particularly these aggravated burglaries
33:37
Speaker 2: machete attacks, there's a reluctance to say what the ethnic
33:41
Speaker 2: origin of these people are. We're shy of saying they're Africans.
33:45
Speaker 2: And I know for a fact that a lot of
33:47
Speaker 2: these issues are coming from Sudanese refugees, Somalians and other
33:51
Speaker 2: in that region who've come from really war torn backgrounds,
33:55
Speaker 2: and when the families get here, often the parents don't
33:58
Speaker 2: assimilate very well. So this reluctance to describe again you
34:04
Speaker 2: use that wordscribe the individuals prevents a proper discussion.
34:09
Speaker 1: It does it doesn't. It's obvious to the public because
34:15
Speaker 1: what ethnicity these people were that committed these crimes, because
34:19
Speaker 1: we were exposed to so much CCTV now than ever before,
34:24
Speaker 1: whether it be fixed cameras or people's phones filming an event,
34:29
Speaker 1: it's just the exposures there and basically straight on it's
34:32
Speaker 1: on our news every night. We basically see crimes just
34:35
Speaker 1: about live, you know, or shortly after the event. We're
34:38
Speaker 1: seeing what's happening, and we look at them and go, well,
34:41
Speaker 1: I know what possible ethnicity that person is because they're
34:45
Speaker 1: so tall and thin. But in other cases we can't.
34:49
Speaker 1: But yes, there's a reluctance there, but not as much
34:52
Speaker 1: as it used to be. Go back some years ago.
34:55
Speaker 1: It was just we'd never say anything at all, which
34:58
Speaker 1: is ridiculous because how does the public help us when
35:02
Speaker 1: we don't know what we're looking for, you know, or
35:05
Speaker 1: every ethnicity looks the same. It's not like that at all.
35:08
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, on the other side of it, too, is
35:10
Speaker 1: that we're stignifying every person who's that race, which is
35:15
Speaker 1: a sad situation because it's only a small percentage that
35:19
Speaker 1: are causing a problem, whereas the greater community aren't they
35:23
Speaker 1: here because they want to be here. They're trying to assimilate,
35:26
Speaker 1: and unfortunately a small few are giving them a bad name.
35:30
Speaker 1: And with the kids, it's basically what's happened is that
35:33
Speaker 1: mum and dad have come from these wart on countries.
35:36
Speaker 1: But when we say that now it's been probably thirty
35:39
Speaker 1: years they've been here now already, you know, it doesn't
35:41
Speaker 1: seem that long. But time flies, and the first group
35:45
Speaker 1: are happy to be here. And yes, their child may
35:48
Speaker 1: not have a mum or a dad or either, and
35:52
Speaker 1: so they're bringing brought up by the auntie and uncle.
35:55
Speaker 1: But it's not that auntie and uncle and that mum
35:58
Speaker 1: or dad that are a problem. It's the kid later
36:01
Speaker 1: who is the second or third generation that causes a
36:04
Speaker 1: problem because they haven't got any identity. They're trying to
36:08
Speaker 1: be the particular race that they are, but with other
36:13
Speaker 1: kids at school who are not of the ethnicity, and
36:16
Speaker 1: he's trying to assimilate with them, and they're lost. But
36:20
Speaker 1: if a group of those lost kids get together, well
36:23
Speaker 1: they're a family now, and then unfortunately, this is what happens.
36:27
Speaker 2: That's very true.
36:28
Speaker 1: Having to look quite regularly across the US.
36:30
Speaker 2: It has and this intergenerational trauma you're talking about. I
36:33
Speaker 2: went to Rwanda after the genocide in ninety four is
36:36
Speaker 2: just after it, and you told the stories. You saw
36:40
Speaker 2: the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people being murdered
36:42
Speaker 2: with machetes often and kids growing up with that memory
36:46
Speaker 2: and their parents going through that, and you think this
36:49
Speaker 2: cannot be a recipe for any kind of normality in
36:52
Speaker 2: their lives. And we've seen the same thing in Southern Sudan,
36:56
Speaker 2: We've seen it in other countries in East Africa, and
36:58
Speaker 2: they're coming here and being dropped into our society without
37:01
Speaker 2: much assistance. And there's probably another argument to hold another podcast,
37:05
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think police trying to deal with that.
37:08
Speaker 2: We go back to that question of assent and if
37:10
Speaker 2: police are not able to build bridges with the community,
37:14
Speaker 2: how on earth can you stop this?
37:16
Speaker 1: That's right, I mean that was one thing with the
37:18
Speaker 1: Asian Squad. We understood the culture. We you know, you
37:22
Speaker 1: take the shoes off when you go in the front door.
37:24
Speaker 1: You know, you hand them your business card with two hands,
37:27
Speaker 1: because that's your handing them your identity. I want you
37:32
Speaker 1: to know me. But they're the things that the street
37:35
Speaker 1: cup needs to know, so they can get off to
37:36
Speaker 1: a good start with anything to show respect for those
37:41
Speaker 1: particular groups. But these kids, that sort of approach wouldn't
37:45
Speaker 1: work with them. It's only going to work with the
37:48
Speaker 1: mum and dad. And unfortunately, the response now too seems
37:53
Speaker 1: to be that Vic Pohle are out there addressing ethic
37:57
Speaker 1: based crime, but these communities seem to think that that's
38:00
Speaker 1: the only people we're targeting, which is totally wrong. And
38:03
Speaker 1: unfortunately that shits you should happened recently in Footscray where
38:06
Speaker 1: that person was shot. You know, the response to that
38:09
Speaker 1: by the community was abhorrent. You know, to go out
38:12
Speaker 1: there the next day and protesting and making assumptions about
38:16
Speaker 1: something that they know nothing about, and just presuming that
38:20
Speaker 1: that's what happened, That this person was fatally shot for
38:24
Speaker 1: no reason at all. It's just crazy. And the outcome
38:28
Speaker 1: of that it just looked really, really bad for the community.
38:31
Speaker 1: They didn't do themselves any favors by what they did.
38:34
Speaker 1: And you know, I look at that and say, oh,
38:36
Speaker 1: this was a homeless person, Well where were you? Where
38:39
Speaker 1: was the community helping that homeless person? If they keep
38:43
Speaker 1: calling them that that they were harmless, well that person
38:47
Speaker 1: wasn't harmless. He was a risk to those members and
38:50
Speaker 1: a risk to the community. Yet I just I find
38:54
Speaker 1: sometimes we're walking on a tightrope about how we respond.
38:58
Speaker 1: Have the big pole responds to things I keep saying, well,
39:01
Speaker 1: because I forget that I'm lot a company.
39:05
Speaker 2: In the blue family. You're always part of it. That's true,
39:07
Speaker 2: but you're dead right, But you're also I mean, I
39:09
Speaker 2: think there's an assumption that police can shoot and kill
39:13
Speaker 2: people with abandon and I'm sure you've dealt with members
39:17
Speaker 2: have had to be in that situation, and this does
39:19
Speaker 2: leave a lasting impact, but it can also lead to
39:22
Speaker 2: bitterness and rivalry and more incidence of violence.
39:26
Speaker 1: Of course, the ken and it's just the fallout of
39:29
Speaker 1: that as none of those members ever want to do that,
39:32
Speaker 1: and that's the last thing in the world they want
39:34
Speaker 1: to do. And there's all the flow on effect later,
39:37
Speaker 1: you know, the mental trauma of what they did, the
39:40
Speaker 1: scrutiny being held to account for what just happened. But
39:45
Speaker 1: unfortunately the community responding the way they did, and even
39:48
Speaker 1: one of the persons there there they are, they've got
39:52
Speaker 1: an ankle bracelet on and they're assaulting the police, you know,
39:55
Speaker 1: as part of that group. And you look at the
39:57
Speaker 1: things that way, you could have done things a lot better.
40:00
Speaker 1: You know, really, it doesn't help you at all.
40:04
Speaker 2: It's very sad, entrenches the bitterness and issues. But let's
40:09
Speaker 2: talk about rights of passage. I think that's certainly part
40:12
Speaker 2: of what I've observed in motorcycle clubs and street gangs,
40:15
Speaker 2: and we're seeing now on the streets of our cities
40:19
Speaker 2: this situation where people are doing aggravated burglaries, stealing cars,
40:25
Speaker 2: going on the freeway and daring the police to chase them,
40:28
Speaker 2: and that's seen as part of a right of passage
40:31
Speaker 2: towards solidarity within a group of young offenders.
40:35
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I never lived through that. I've been involved
40:40
Speaker 1: in New Rumorus car chases, but nothing like what I've
40:43
Speaker 1: seen now. And I just wonder that these young people
40:48
Speaker 1: seem to think they have nine lives. You know. It's
40:51
Speaker 1: like watching a playing a video game where you know,
40:53
Speaker 1: bang bang bang, I shoot. Next minute, Well, I've got
40:56
Speaker 1: a second life and I can keep going. And it's
40:58
Speaker 1: the same with the cars. They're ramming police cars, and
41:00
Speaker 1: I don't know what they think is going to happen
41:02
Speaker 1: as a result of ramming a police car that their
41:04
Speaker 1: car going to keep going. You know, it just doesn't
41:07
Speaker 1: make sense. And I sometimes look at things and go, well,
41:11
Speaker 1: where do they think this is going to escalate to?
41:14
Speaker 1: You know, what's the outcome that they think is going
41:17
Speaker 1: to happen that they're just going to get away at
41:19
Speaker 1: the moment, you know, the chopper is up there more
41:22
Speaker 1: than it's ever been. It must be costing a fortune
41:25
Speaker 1: to have it up in the air, but it's the
41:27
Speaker 1: quickest response and the safest response to those sort of matters.
41:31
Speaker 1: But it just seems to be a standard outcome steal
41:34
Speaker 1: the car and get involved in the chase and ram
41:36
Speaker 1: the police car. It just seems to be second nature. Now.
41:40
Speaker 2: I don't know why it really is. I was talking
41:42
Speaker 2: to one two five one sergeant is on the night
41:44
Speaker 2: shift mostly and he says this every night, almost in
41:46
Speaker 2: the in certain times of the year. And I have
41:49
Speaker 2: to say that some of the police don't mind the situation.
41:50
Speaker 2: It's pretty exciting work, you know, with the chopper up
41:53
Speaker 2: and you've got the you've got the canine unit there,
41:55
Speaker 2: you've got the critical Incident Response team as well, and
41:58
Speaker 2: often they catch these fellas. And he said to me,
42:01
Speaker 2: he said, one day, this is all going to be over,
42:03
Speaker 2: you know, because I think the old it outs there
42:05
Speaker 2: is more technology to stop these cars without having to
42:08
Speaker 2: use stop this. I mean, we see these stopsticks with
42:12
Speaker 2: the spikes and barbs on them to stop these cars,
42:15
Speaker 2: and I guess what they're saying is we want to
42:17
Speaker 2: use these to catch cars at low speed, not fast.
42:21
Speaker 2: But I think some sort of governors on these cars
42:23
Speaker 2: would be a better technology to stop them.
42:25
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like a lot of responses the theft of
42:28
Speaker 1: motor cars. You put all the micro dots within the
42:32
Speaker 1: engine bay area, all that sort of stuff to try
42:34
Speaker 1: and identify cars back into the days of cars being
42:37
Speaker 1: stolen for all the other purposes, being transported overseas and
42:41
Speaker 1: things like that. But yes, in that case, it would
42:43
Speaker 1: be a great way just to stop the vehicle. But
42:46
Speaker 1: at the moment, it's just a it's a standard type
42:49
Speaker 1: vehicle as well that they want to steal. It's not
42:51
Speaker 1: your old hold in commodore. They want to they want
42:53
Speaker 1: to mark, and they want to BMW and they want
42:55
Speaker 1: to outy and they're planning where those cars are located
42:59
Speaker 1: and breaking into those homes. When I say breaking, in
43:02
Speaker 1: a lot of the times that they're leaving the doors open,
43:05
Speaker 1: which is I don't know how many times you have
43:06
Speaker 1: to tell people don't do that. I know, you want
43:08
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable in your own home and live the
43:11
Speaker 1: way you want to live. And unfortunately times are changed
43:13
Speaker 1: and you you've got to lock your premise.
43:16
Speaker 2: Well you're right, and also you've got you've got homes
43:18
Speaker 2: where and this is the way they built these days,
43:19
Speaker 2: townhouses with the expensive outer you park and the driveway
43:22
Speaker 2: it's it's not enclosed, and the offenders know if they
43:26
Speaker 2: kick the door in, they'll find the keys on the
43:28
Speaker 2: hook inside and if they go the I don't know
43:31
Speaker 2: why outer is. I mean, I've never found the very attractive,
43:34
Speaker 2: but they're the ones people want to steal it.
43:36
Speaker 1: Oh the AMG Mercedes, and you know it just seems
43:40
Speaker 1: to be the case. But then they feel they're going
43:42
Speaker 1: to outrun the police and then outrun the dog. There's
43:45
Speaker 1: a prime answer too. You know that the new chief
43:48
Speaker 1: is coming in. We's come from a police force where
43:49
Speaker 1: there's one hundred and twenty dogs in their police force
43:53
Speaker 1: and we'd probably got half that. And I look at
43:56
Speaker 1: it and say, well, you know the fear factor. Wise,
43:59
Speaker 1: you let a dog loose they're going to stop. They're
44:01
Speaker 1: worth three or four cops to tell you the truth.
44:04
Speaker 2: They are, And you're right. Our new New Zealand Commission's
44:07
Speaker 2: coming in they're going to have We've got fifty four
44:09
Speaker 2: dogs in Victoria and they can't get enough of them.
44:12
Speaker 2: They're valuable, valuable assets, and you're right. They do create
44:16
Speaker 2: compliance in a way that the officers can't and it's safer.
44:19
Speaker 2: Unfortunately that does put the dogs at risk, but certainly
44:21
Speaker 2: safer for human members.
44:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. But normally they hear the dog coming,
44:26
Speaker 1: they'll throw themselves on the floor, you know, because they
44:29
Speaker 1: don't want the outcome of being bitten.
44:31
Speaker 2: That's right. Listen, we've painted a terrible picture of doom
44:35
Speaker 2: and gloom here. But I think what you probably found
44:38
Speaker 2: in your research is that this youth gang culture, if
44:42
Speaker 2: they don't get entrenched in the criminal system, there is
44:45
Speaker 2: a point where they can change their hearts and change
44:48
Speaker 2: their lives.
44:48
Speaker 1: Well, of course there is. Yeah, there's definitely that. Not
44:52
Speaker 1: only your cliche kids were born bad. You know, they've
44:54
Speaker 1: been born into situations that they never had any control.
44:58
Speaker 1: There are kids that you'll probably never change, unfortunately, but
45:01
Speaker 1: there are kids that can be saved for sure. But
45:05
Speaker 1: the biggest way to do that is basically get on
45:07
Speaker 1: top of all these particular gangs and address who they are,
45:12
Speaker 1: what they are, and target them appropriately. Sometimes we think
45:16
Speaker 1: about gangs and we think, oh, we've got to go
45:18
Speaker 1: get the hierarchy downwards. But a lot of street gangs
45:22
Speaker 1: don't have a hierarchical structure. They're just the person who's
45:26
Speaker 1: a leader might be the person a leader for a
45:28
Speaker 1: day because they have a certain skill. They step up
45:32
Speaker 1: and fight. They're the best fighter. Well, we'll use them.
45:35
Speaker 1: He knows how to steal a car, or use him.
45:37
Speaker 1: He knows how to break into house. He's the leader
45:38
Speaker 1: for the day. They don't want to be led. That's
45:41
Speaker 1: the biggest problem. They don't want So sometimes the way
45:45
Speaker 1: you attack things that might be a bit different with
45:47
Speaker 1: omcgs and other organized crime, but not street kids. You've
45:50
Speaker 1: got to take up the whole group. You can't just
45:53
Speaker 1: take a singular entities because it's not going to make
45:56
Speaker 1: any difference.
45:57
Speaker 2: Okay. In a parallel universe, Victoria Police comes back and says,
46:00
Speaker 2: Patrick Boyle, you were right, we were wrong. I want
46:03
Speaker 2: you to come back and set up a gang squad.
46:05
Speaker 2: What would you do.
46:07
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it. A lot of our
46:09
Speaker 1: gang unit is basically all Melbourne based. It's within the
46:12
Speaker 1: crime squads, but where the crime is happening is out
46:16
Speaker 1: in the regions. So at a regional level, which they
46:19
Speaker 1: are I'm doing that in Southern Metro they have a
46:21
Speaker 1: group that's targeting gangs all the time and working on
46:25
Speaker 1: that and that's where there has to be units within
46:28
Speaker 1: regional locations who are trained and specialized in gang activity
46:33
Speaker 1: to get out there but also to be involved with
46:36
Speaker 1: all the social workers as well and understand and talk
46:39
Speaker 1: to them and say, hey, you've got this kid, got
46:41
Speaker 1: this kid, that got this kid and send them the information,
46:44
Speaker 1: say hey you got to go. You've got to go
46:45
Speaker 1: and visit that kid, because it's not our role to
46:47
Speaker 1: be visiting kids. You know that kid needs help. But
46:50
Speaker 1: at the moment, the gang unit we have, while they're
46:52
Speaker 1: out there doing a great job, but they're responding. Whereas
46:56
Speaker 1: the intelligence is out there in the regions and we
46:59
Speaker 1: need units within there to be able to solely look
47:02
Speaker 1: at this or from a local level and then feed
47:05
Speaker 1: that information into a central area as well, and also
47:09
Speaker 1: make sure that what we are gathering the intelligence wise
47:12
Speaker 1: is based on a descriptor. This is what a gang is,
47:16
Speaker 1: this is the one, this is the game we're going
47:18
Speaker 1: to target. But at the moment, I don't know what
47:20
Speaker 1: air intelligence looks like and who's making a decision about
47:22
Speaker 1: what actually is a gang if we don't have a
47:24
Speaker 1: descriptor to go by, so you're gathering in false information.
47:28
Speaker 2: How does the future look right now given the settings
47:31
Speaker 2: we have in place.
47:33
Speaker 1: Well, we're in a standstill, you know, we're not moving
47:38
Speaker 1: forward or backward. We're responding all the time, and it's
47:41
Speaker 1: just terrific to see it happening every night. But I
47:44
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have all the answers at the moment because
47:47
Speaker 1: you're sort of you know, you don't have all the
47:48
Speaker 1: intelligence in front of you. All I'm seeing is what's
47:50
Speaker 1: on TV. But I don't know what There's a big
47:53
Speaker 1: difference to what you see on TV and what is
47:55
Speaker 1: actually one our ability to address it and to a
47:59
Speaker 1: true understanding of what is actually happening, I'm not exposed
48:03
Speaker 1: to that anymore. I don't have the intelligence reports and
48:05
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff that you used to see
48:07
Speaker 1: before and be able to make an assessment correct.
48:09
Speaker 2: I've got a mantra, knowledge, courage, action. You certainly took
48:13
Speaker 2: that path in your research, and I can see a
48:15
Speaker 2: very useful place for a summit as you've not just
48:18
Speaker 2: in Victoria, across the country, because I think this is
48:21
Speaker 2: a problem in every state, probably around the world actually,
48:23
Speaker 2: So anyway, I really thank you for sharing your experiences
48:27
Speaker 2: in your service and continuing to advocate on this very
48:30
Speaker 2: difficult topic which is burdened by politics and lack of resources.
48:34
Speaker 2: Expediency which was one of mc miller's favorite terms. When
48:37
Speaker 2: there was a problem, expediency won the day, he would say,
48:40
Speaker 2: and that's what's working now. Thank you so much for
48:42
Speaker 2: your time today.
48:43
Speaker 1: Pat, Yes, sir, now is Adam? Thanks for asking me.
48:48
Speaker 2: That's Pat Boyle, ex Victoria Police, one of our most
48:51
Speaker 2: qualified specialists on street gangs. We are losing the war
48:55
Speaker 2: right now, and it is a war for our streets.
48:57
Speaker 2: We're losing our kids. I'd love to hear from listeners
49:00
Speaker 2: out there who've had these experiences. What are the street
49:03
Speaker 2: gangs in your area? What's going on? Are the police
49:06
Speaker 2: walking the streets? Do they know who's actually out there?
49:10
Speaker 2: We often see police officers driving around the suburbs now
49:12
Speaker 2: with the windows up, they don't hear what's going on outside.
49:16
Speaker 2: It's time they walk those streets again. But of course
49:19
Speaker 2: massive resources issues there to address. This has been real
49:22
Speaker 2: crime with Adam Shann. Thank you for listening. If you
49:25
Speaker 2: have any information you want to share with me, email
49:27
Speaker 2: me on Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com, or
49:31
Speaker 2: if you want to report a crime crime Stoppers one
49:33
Speaker 2: eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. Thanks for listening.
49:45
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