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#77 Is Your Brain On Shuffle: Surviving ADHD in College · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

College Is Fine Podcast (00:00) All right, listeners, I'm really excited today that we have a guest on who is really a long-term ADHD expert, has personal and professional experience, and probably the best person we could have on to talk a lot about ADHD learning in college. And I would love for you to introduce yourself. Rae Jacobson (00:22) Hi, thank you so much for having me. My name is Rae Jacobson. I'm the lead of insight at understood.org and I was a senior editor at the Child Mind Institute before that and I have ADHD. College Is Fine Podcast (00:31) Thank you, Ray, for being here. You're doing a lot of things which I feel like was not in your entire introduction, but I want to tell listeners will be in our show notes that we... I mean, you are a podcaster. ⁓ Rae Jacobson (00:38) Yeah, right. I forgot to mention the podcast. I'm not that good at that. Right. Also, I host Hyper Focus, the podcast, Ununderstood, which is a journalistic approach to ADHD and learning. College Is Fine Podcast (00:50) Right. Awesome. So we'll include that in the show notes. And I definitely think that if you want to kind of dive in and hear a lot of interviews with experts on ADHD topics, it's a great lesson. OK, so maybe you could just tell the listeners a little bit of a landscape of like how you got here. How did you end up like in the 80, 80, 80 and like learning disability world? Like, what's your story and why is it important to you? Rae Jacobson (01:14) I came by it very genetically. I have ADHD and a tentative type and I have dyscalculia. And so I took a very kind of, I don't wanna say typical path through school for people who have that type of brain, but there's a lot of failure, a lot of struggle, a lot of like, well, you're really smart. Like, why can't you just do better? And by the time I reached college, I was pretty demoralized. Like I really, didn't have an ADHD diagnosis yet. I was diagnosed at 21. which is young for a lot of women, but still considerably older than would have been helpful during my school career. And so I went to college unprepared. I was so thrilled to get into college at all and failed out after a year. And then I was home, I was working, know, freelancing and pretty miserable. And my mother who also has ADHD had gone to this tiny college in Vermont called Windham College. College Is Fine Podcast (01:46) Right. Rae Jacobson (02:06) which closed down, I think, because everybody just smoked pot and did nothing else there, just a guess. She told me they allowed St. Bernard's to live in the dorms, which sounds both wonderful and completely nuts. But after it closed down, and a brief stint, think, maybe as a women's prison, it became Landmark College, which is an all-LD, and when I say LD, I mean learning disability and ADHD college. And she convinced me to go look at it. And I was very resistant, and I didn't really associate myself with that. College Is Fine Podcast (02:24) Yes. Rae Jacobson (02:35) label and I wasn't sure what I would think and I got there and it was life-changing immediately. I suddenly saw people like myself who seemed smart and interesting and had learning disabilities and I'd never seen that before and it fully and 100 % changed my life. I know I sound like an ad for Landmark right now but it was huge for me and while I was there they went through my testing with me and said you know did you never really suspect you had ADHD? said no I have what was at the time called learning disability NOS. College Is Fine Podcast (02:47) Mm. Rae Jacobson (03:01) So not otherwise specified, which is I think code for girl with ADHD in the 1990s. And they went through it and I got a clear diagnosis and it launched me into a 20 year career because I thought, God, if people had known more, if I had known more, if there was more information about this, I would have had a very different path. And I want to know, like I'm very lucky. I had the resources to do these things. I had a lot of backup from my family. I had a mom who was very much behind me and that was huge. College Is Fine Podcast (03:03) Right. Hmm. Rae Jacobson (03:29) ⁓ she herself had been through school with ADHD and diagnosed and struggled. So I was lucky and I thought people shouldn't have to get lucky to get help. And so I've made it my career and I've been lucky enough to, you know, the luck continued. I get to do this as a job and it, it's such a wonderful privilege. College Is Fine Podcast (03:38) Hmm. There's so many things I would love to ask you more about your story, but the thing that comes to mind that I think might be more time sensitive is, you know, I work a lot with college students and teenagers and applying to college and, a lot of kids have this idea of like what kind of what college is, what school they're going to go to. And maybe don't pay attention to. One, their readiness for college and also what college is a good fit for them, right? but like there might be elements of a school that fit your learning profile or have resources available to you that other schools might not have. Aside from a mom who has maybe had a lot of insight, awareness and ⁓ was pushy maybe to kind of get you there. What helped you be more flexible in your thinking about school and landing there? And what would you recommend for high school students as they kind of go through the college application process that might be helpful for them to consider? Rae Jacobson (04:38) I think it's a really good question because I think you mentioned that one of the things that was nice about Landmark was that it had this sort of the help for people who learned differently, it was baked in to everything. But I know a lot of people get that from colleges that just are smaller or more intimate or where you can get more personal attention or where, for example, you don't have to take the classes that held you back in school. But. College Is Fine Podcast (04:51) Mm-hmm. right, right. Rae Jacobson (04:57) I think that's kind of like jumping ahead almost. Part of it is really just sitting with yourself and saying, am I ready for And I think this is echoed for a lot of people. When I went to college, all I wanted was to not get left behind. I just didn't want to be the one that didn't go anywhere. And I think if I had had a different take on it then, thought like, well, there's a lot of things I could do. Take a gap year, do something else, try a different type of school. That might have given me the flexibility I needed to College Is Fine Podcast (05:21) Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (05:23) do well from the get. But as it was, I just wanted to be, quote unquote, normal and do what my friends were doing. And I don't mean that in a peer pressure sort of way, but it just the idea. Like, I am the one of these things that is not like the others and that does not feel good. That's very powerful. And I think, you it's like, ⁓ it's powerful for teenagers, but it's powerful for everybody. It's a real feeling. It's like validate that in yourself, but also look and say, like, how will this benefit me now? Like if you go to a school, College Is Fine Podcast (05:29) Mm. Yeah. Rae Jacobson (05:51) And I've used to work with clients who are transitioning to college. have a master's in counseling and talking to them about like, if you go to school, say you go to the college you can get into, which usually if you've struggled in high school might not be the dream school, how will you succeed there? What will be different? And if you really have to sit with that question, you kind of start to think about, it might end up that you're like, here are the things that I need to do to make this different. College Is Fine Podcast (06:02) Right. Rae Jacobson (06:12) But if it's just like, I'll just be in a new place and I'll at least I'll be in college and it'll just be different, that is something that needs further investigation. Like if you can ask yourself what's gonna change, not what will just change because I'm in a new place, but what am I going to do internally to change the way that I work? That can be a big decider for kids. And I also think... College Is Fine Podcast (06:26) Mm. Rae Jacobson (06:32) not counting on college to be like a panacea, a cure-all, like a utopian learning experience because it's still school. It's just school with less support. Like I think that's a very important thing too, because I don't know about you, but when I transitioned to college, I was like, I never have to take math again. Everything's going to be great. It's just going to be all creativity forever. And like, that's not really true. So I think you have to kind of be realistic both about yourself and about where you're going and about where those two things meet. College Is Fine Podcast (06:42) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wish I mean, that would be a longer conversation and talk about how we can do that at the at the high school level. Right. And what could be embedded within our school systems to help have meaningful conversations like that. But I do think some things that are takeaways from what you said, I think are important that, you know, one, a change of environment might not cure all problems. Right. And to also be right. And to also be realistic that Rae Jacobson (07:24) Yeah, wherever you go, there you are. College Is Fine Podcast (07:28) learning and being a student is basically the core of what college is, right? And so making sure that's something that you're interested in doing and then having some awareness about if you want to be successful doing that, what might need to be there for you. Now you went to, you kind of described, you went to maybe a school that was a really good fit for your learning profile, right? What did you find that was most helpful to you during those years? Rae Jacobson (07:57) You know, again, I think it was a very specific thing and I think you can find these things in different ways depending on who you are, wherever you go. But for me, one of the things that was genuinely helpful that I wish everyone did for everyone all the time was teach basic organizational skills as a class. And it's, if I got on a soapbox and this would be it, is that everyone should have to take a class on executive functioning skills. And everything from how to organize a notebook, to how to manage your time. It's incredibly helpful whether you learn differently or not. And that was truly life-changing for me. But if you know you struggle with that and you don't have that option at school, seeking out maybe some help or support to get those things a little bit more firmly together before you go is really key because you don't have someone handing you your backpack. You don't have any type of, you know, College Is Fine Podcast (08:27) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (08:47) outside support checking on you and saying, you you didn't go to class today, like, is everything okay? It's really about self motivation. And if you don't know how to do the things you need to do to get things done, it's very hard to be motivated. So that's one thing that really stands out to me. The other thing was that I got to be around other people who, it wasn't even so much that they had hacks or they, ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast (09:07) Yeah. Rae Jacobson (09:07) you we're we were sharing tips, it was more like you just got to sort of undo some of the sense of being like unpleasantly unique that comes with being a person who learns differently. Like if you go through school and you always feel like you're one step behind or one step to the left and everything is a little bit confusing and you don't really want people to know and you've spent all this time on masking, getting to a place where you don't have to do that anymore is like, I can't even describe the weight that comes off. So maybe it's College Is Fine Podcast (09:15) Mm. Hmm. Rae Jacobson (09:34) You know, there are not that many colleges like that. Most people don't need a college like that. If you go to a place and you just find your people and they get you and you don't have to hold up the mask, that is huge. That is a big thing. College Is Fine Podcast (09:38) Yeah. Yeah. you know, when you were talking about that, I'm a huge proponent of group psychotherapy and all my teenagers and young adults are like, you're joking, right? And I'm like, well, one, like research-wise, like the treatment effects of group alone tend to be as beneficial. It's cheaper usually than individual. Like there's so many things, but the piece that I really love is this like, Rae Jacobson (09:51) I am too. College Is Fine Podcast (10:08) feeling heard or understood even without words, That you can kind of see similarities. You can like maybe experienced the world similarly to you. And it seems like you're really lucky to have that when you were in college. And that for many students, finding people that might experience the world in the same way that you do, so that it can both, I think, reduce some shame and embarrassment that people have, and also, a sense of, validation or feeling understood would be helpful for sure. So, okay, what would be your advice, and maybe if you had any personal experience like this in high school even, maybe you didn't, because you didn't have a formal diagnosis yet, but you've worked with clients, you've heard a lot of stories. You know, I do feel like there's a lot of shoulds that college students put on themselves, right? And definitely from before college about... what a typical student should kind of look like, Being self-sufficient, not needing a lot of support, not needing to go to office hours, being able to self-teach and learn and kind of like do everything on your own. And there is almost this expectation that you are on your own, right? Like your parents aren't reminding you anymore, et cetera. But we know that like the college students that are successful actually do have a lot of social support. Rae Jacobson (11:02) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (11:23) emotionally and academically. So what would you say to a student that maybe have, you know, a different learning profile than a typical student or be struggling and are struggling with these feelings of shame and embarrassment about reaching out for help? Rae Jacobson (11:37) Mm-hmm. I mean, it's tricky because it's so much about how you experience yourself. You know, it's easy to just dispense advice and say like, well, here's how you should handle it. But depending on where you are in your journey, that's going to look very different for different people. So I can give what is my best advice for someone who is open to it, is ready for it. And maybe it's, if you're not in that place, it's something to work towards. But you know, one of the things, the easiest thing to me, honestly, is College Is Fine Podcast (11:46) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Rae Jacobson (12:06) find a friend who helps you stay accountable. It doesn't have to be a teacher, a mentor. You don't have to go to disability services right away. We'll get to that later. But if you just have somebody who says, know, like, hey, I need you to do, we're going do in that project. We're going to sit together and do it. You know, they call it body doubling sometimes where you're working with someone that is really helpful because it feels very natural and it feels in very comfortably to the college mode. Like that is kind of the vibe. You're trying to find ways to like, College Is Fine Podcast (12:23) Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Rae Jacobson (12:33) do what you'll do in life, right? Like find friends who help you navigate tough situations. Like no reason not to start then. In fact, it's one of the most helpful things you can do. And then you have someone who you can turn to and say like, I'm having a really hard time and they can show up for you also. That's really beneficial. Beyond that, you one of the things that's nice about college is it is a little bit more egalitarian in terms of how you interact with teachers, with administrators, with your advisor. Find people you really connect with. Like I had a teacher who I still correspond with, who's still a friend of mine. College Is Fine Podcast (12:35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Rae Jacobson (13:01) It's not so much like a top-down feeling. If you have trouble, they want to know. Like they actually want to know. They don't want you to just be the kid in the back who disappears. They actually want to understand how they can help you. And that is something you can absolutely take advantage of, even to the point like that. If you're behind on something, if you're struggling with something, you can say, this is just really hard for me. I need a few more days. You're much more likely to have somebody who's receptive because you're talking to them like a person. Go to them, be yourself. You don't have to hide things. Be as open as College Is Fine Podcast (13:06) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rae Jacobson (13:29) you're able to be and see where that takes you. College Is Fine Podcast (13:32) Two of those things you said, like the first part, you know, remind me of this conversation I was having with a college student who has ADHD and anxiety. They were getting really hard on themselves that they couldn't, you know, complete tasks, procrastination, lack of motivation, they're lazy. Like the very, I think, common story that I hear, particularly for people who have anxiety and ADHD. And I was like self-disclosing. was like, do you think, I don't have ADHD or anxiety, but do you think I don't need accountability like for my environment? Like the amount of times I say to my husband, I really need to write my notes tonight. Do not let me watch TV before I do my notes and send these emails. so that it is, for some reason it becomes like almost this like pathologize that you're like leaning on. Rae Jacobson (13:59) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (14:16) or dependent or burdening other people when it really is something that understanding the context in which you're in and like what would help you kind of engage in behaviors more effectively. It's a really helpful tool, right? And to kind of, I think, challenge these beliefs that you're different because you need this, right? It's more about being effective and actually more people do it than I think a lot of. Rae Jacobson (14:16) Yeah. Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (14:39) individuals with ADHD realize like myself, right? Rae Jacobson (14:42) Absolutely. mean, honestly, not to be like textbook about it, but to go back what you were saying about group therapy, Irving Yalem, one of my very favorite therapists ever, like in the world who came up with these tenants of group therapy, disconfirmation of uniqueness, like you are not alone. You are not unusual. This is like a lot of people struggle with this stuff. And one of the other ones is the ability to like impart knowledge and gain knowledge. Right? So when you do that kind of stuff, it's not just you who's getting the help. College Is Fine Podcast (14:50) Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (15:07) you're actually offering that to someone else because just because someone doesn't have ADHD or a learning difference doesn't mean they don't need someone to stay up with them and make sure that paper gets done. It's really important. College Is Fine Podcast (15:15) Right, right, right, right. The second point that I wanted to make was, and I feel like at this point, this might be my soapbox in terms of what I stand on, is the importance of utilizing professor relationships in college. Not only do I work with a of students that leave college and they're like, I want to go to grad school, and they're like, I don't have a meaningful relationship with a single professor. Or they think they're bothering their professors, right? That like kind of reminding yourself that like most professors go into working at a college because they want to help, right? And that aside from teaching, I mean, they're actually required to have office hours. And the point of those hours is not just to ask for help, you know, like there are life skills, there are things like they're most knowledge, right? About what the life of a college student is like. So Rae Jacobson (16:00) Yeah. Absolutely. College Is Fine Podcast (16:06) I'm glad to hear, and I'm someone who similarly has contact with a lot of my undergrad professors still to this day. Rae Jacobson (16:13) They can be lifelong, not just resources, but friends. And it's also something where like, I don't know, when you go to college, one of the benefits is that you suddenly have access to an entirely different set of adult thought. You know, there's all these people you can talk to who have different perspectives than you've heard before, and that's useful on every level. College Is Fine Podcast (16:23) Yeah, right, right. Right. OK, so let's talk about, and this is I think it's a difficult topic, but and one that I'm always counseling families to really cope ahead for and think about in terms of what resources are available for students who have learning differences or have ADHD or have a disability, because I'm always shocked that sometimes what's advertised does not necessarily. Rae Jacobson (16:53) is not what's there. College Is Fine Podcast (16:54) is now it's there. And also, a lot of college students struggle with self-advocacy and kind of like following through. And they're kind of used to, I think, the halls of a high school where someone will see you and be like, hey, like a gentle reminder, come to my office on Friday. Like that's not really going to happen. So I don't know, what are your thoughts about kind of campus mental health or disability services and maybe as it applies to ADHD, is like where could we maybe make some improvements or what would you want families to know that, you know, might be in their first semester at school, maybe they're struggling and. Rae Jacobson (17:16) you Yeah. I mean, it is, that's a tricky one because you love to be able to say like, just go to that office and get what you need. And I, in my experience and with the people I've worked with, that's very frequently just not the case. it's disability services could be better across the board. And even in some of the best schools in the country, they're shockingly unhelpful. College Is Fine Podcast (17:32) I know. Right. Rae Jacobson (17:57) That said, they do exist and they do have value and there are things you could use them for depending on who you are. But I think one of the realities that I really like to bring up because I think it's something that we sort of, if you're asking someone who's already having a hard time to do more, that is a big ask. you're struggling? Well, you should go to the disability services office. Just find that time and then go disclose. College Is Fine Podcast (18:12) Mm. Right, right, right. Rae Jacobson (18:18) and then navigate whatever bureaucracy they have and you got it. It's all you need to do. That I think is far less realistic for most students than utilizing natural supports. Like we talked about your peers for bodily doubling, body doubling, accountability, for someone to talk to. professors, your advisor can be super helpful, especially if you have a good relationship with your advisor. It's worth maybe switching advisors until you have a good relationship with your advisor because that can also be really helpful. They can help you figure out how to advocate. They can help you figure out how to stay on track with your grades. I just feel like I don't want to knock disability services across the board. think they do have some value. But I think in general, it's really important to put them where they belong in the schema, which is like, College Is Fine Podcast (18:41) Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (19:04) pretty low on the levels. Like you're not gonna, that's not like the thing you're looking for. Things I would be more interested in if I'm going to a college is how easy is it to get from your dorm to your class? Right, is it in a snowy place and you have to walk really far? Cause that's gonna make a lot of people less likely to go. How easy is their software to navigate? If you have Blackboard, if you have... College Is Fine Podcast (19:05) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (19:24) whatever your thing where you see your grades and your syllabus, is that an easy thing for you to navigate? Can you get a preview of it beforehand so you can sort of work through it with somebody who can help you if you're having trouble? Because if your school uses it and you don't know how to, that's gonna be a big setback. Like there's these very specific things that I don't think we think about that make a bigger difference usually than even having, you know, someone on campus you can talk to about your learning challenges. It's really looking ahead and saying like, all right, what's hard for me and what does this school do? College Is Fine Podcast (19:32) Mm. Right. Right. Rae Jacobson (19:51) to support it and where will my biggest challenges be? But I want to follow that because there's something that I think is really important about all this stuff. And it's a little bit of a turn to stuff that parents feel very worried about, but I think it's really important to address, which is there is a lot of comorbidity with ADHD. And this is not like small stuff. We're talking binge drinking, drug use, eating disorders, bipolar disorder. There's a lot, lot, lot. College Is Fine Podcast (19:53) Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (20:15) And it's really important to not just think of this as something that exists in a vacuum, but something that can end up clashing with a lot of the challenges that come with college. And so school mental health services, that's a different thing. That's really important. And if you know that you have a hard time, maybe just even walking to find out where the office is, seeing what kind of stuff they have to offer. That's a situation where peers probably aren't your best choice, especially if you're going through something that feels College Is Fine Podcast (20:20) Hmm. Rae Jacobson (20:39) scary or dangerous or upsetting like suicidality or an eating disorder. So I don't want to like flatten those two things and put them together. I think I have my fidget in my hand as you can see, but I forgot. But I do think it's important to separate those and maybe get acquainted with both, but I would put school mental health services higher on the list of things that you want to be aware of and how to access. College Is Fine Podcast (20:45) Right, right. Yeah, we talk a lot about too, like, and I think this kind of wraps into what you were saying, like, don't wait till the five alarm fire, you know, even surprised, like, people ask me, I'm like, I, you know, some universities, you really can just go for a crisis, and you can't have individual sessions in their counseling center. So like, you should know that what do you have access to in terms of resources I wonder how you would feel about this, but like it sounds like if having awareness around what are your strengths and kind of deficits around executive functioning prior to going to college to kind of seeing like, is there something potentially over the summer? Like, is there a course or something that I could do? Is there something my school offers around executive functioning? Or could I work with someone or individually to kind of really? examined the landscape of like, am I gonna have to navigate in college that for somebody who has executive functioning deficits might be challenging, would be something that might be more beneficial than, know, disability services sending an email to your professor, letting them know about extra time. Rae Jacobson (22:03) Yeah, think it's, you know, again, soapbox, think it's the most important thing. College Is Fine Podcast (22:07) Right, right. Okay, so we've talked about so many things. I'd like to talk a little bit about your podcast. So the podcast is called Hyperfocus. I mean, I'm a little interested about the name. I would love to know, is there anything that you tend to get really hyper focused on? this is like the blessing and sometimes the downside of ADHD, but I find it fascinating. Like I was talking to a patient the other day, she was telling me all about. black holes and like how she's really hyper focused on them right now. And I was like, my gosh, you know so much about this. Rae Jacobson (22:35) It really, it really depends on the week. got to tell you, who knows what it'll be. Well, I, know, I am lucky in that the thing that I get to hyper-focus on is also the thing that is my job for a lot of time. Like I genuinely love talking about this stuff in case you can't tell, like this is my joy. So the podcast is my chance to talk about things that I am really into and to do this thing that is my overarching hyper-focus, know, black holes also cool. Don't get me wrong, but. College Is Fine Podcast (22:37) Right? That's right. Yeah. Rae Jacobson (23:04) That is, I feel very strongly, very, very strongly that if you put good information into the world, that's a way of doing a service. And there's so many things that we're still learning about ADHD and learning and how it intersects with mental health and, you know, body changes and our lives and all this stuff. And it can be really hard, especially now. I mean, when I started doing this, nobody was talking about ADHD, especially no one was talking about ADHD and women. That was like, College Is Fine Podcast (23:28) Yeah. Rae Jacobson (23:29) you must be kidding kind of a thing. Like I would try to bring it up with people and they'd be like, you know, and now it's a pretty big conversation, but not all the parts of it are, true or good information as is so often the case when things get kind of like a little zeitgeisty. So we've had the chance to bring on some of my like absolute heroes, like Dr. Kathleen Nadeau, who was one of the sort of godmothers of women with ADHD talking about what it was like just like battling through sexism. College Is Fine Podcast (23:43) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (23:56) just to get people to acknowledge that women had ADHD at all. We had this incredible woman, Dr. Catherine Burndorf, who runs the Motherhood Center in New York come on to talk about the serious and vast, yeah, between postpartum depression and ADHD, which would have been extremely helpful to know before I had a child. There's a lot of stuff that is, it's like a hyper focus and then it's granular and like fascinating, but it's... College Is Fine Podcast (23:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rae Jacobson (24:22) very quiet when it's in the larger conversation about all of these big, big topics. So the show has been a wonderful opportunity to highlight these things that I'm like, I really want people to know this. You know, I mean, take your pick. There's a thing. And they let me sort of run around with my own brain, which is both a blessing and a curse. You know, I'm interested in this and I'm interested in this and I'm interested in this. We have not yet done ADHD and black holes. Hold for that. I'm sure it's coming. Uh, rabbit holes. We have to need to see rabbit holes. College Is Fine Podcast (24:26) Right. You Rae Jacobson (24:49) But, you know, it's been like an incredible privilege. I'm so excited to be doing it. I've been writing about ADHD forever. It's a new medium for me and I'm really enjoying myself. So yeah, I hope everybody checks it out. We haven't done college yet, but maybe we can have you guys on to talk about it. College Is Fine Podcast (25:03) Yeah, wonderful, would love. Okay, let's end with this because you were a college age when you were diagnosed with ADHD. How has your own understanding of ADHD either evolved like through your work or your self understanding since then? Rae Jacobson (25:17) That's a great question. I mean, lot of it in myself was, know, it's, there's ADHD is vast, right? So you have to deal with all of the practical parts of it. Not messing up at work and, you know, remembering when you're supposed to be somewhere and not losing everything that you touch and all these kind of like very real, very important things that require a lot of skill building. But for me, what has been most life-changing and prominent has been like coming to terms with it. for myself, like the, the negative self-talk, not, you know, like I have a tendency to be like, what is wrong with me? Whenever I do something that is just ADHD, it's just ADHD. And now I have a daughter with ADHD. And so I am able to sort of like see her in a different light than I see myself. And that can be a little bit like reflectively kind, you know, where I'm like, I don't want her to say this to herself, geez. And so that's been really helpful. But overall, like I said, when I started doing this, I mean, nobody wanted to talk. College Is Fine Podcast (26:00) Right, right. Rae Jacobson (26:07) this. It was little boys and everything else was sort of like a weird tag on and isn't it caused by like video games and isn't it you know maybe you should just take vitamins and like try harder like it was such a different landscape than it is today and I've been really privileged to be part of you know pushing for change in that way through my work but watching these new things rise out of it like being able to talk about postpartum depression like being able to talk about the way that ADHD affects the body. College Is Fine Podcast (26:16) Yeah. Rae Jacobson (26:35) like being able to talk about how ADHD infects incarcerated people. There's so, so much more we can say now because a lot of the general tone has come up. And I love being able to finally focus on, on the more granular aspects of it and see maybe where more, I don't know, benefit sounds like a weird word, but where we can do good, where we can make things better for people who learn differently, who have this neurotype. So it's been kind of like a fun. College Is Fine Podcast (26:39) Mm-hmm. Right? Rae Jacobson (27:01) an exciting professional journey and a very sort of slow moving but really wonderful personal journey too. College Is Fine Podcast (27:07) Ray, you really ended that on such a note. I don't even know what to say. mean, I, how lucky I think ⁓ listeners are to have your podcast and your writing. And we really appreciate your time, your wisdom and your honesty. And if you'd to learn more about what Ray's doing, like I said, we'll put that in the show notes. And thank you so much for being on. Rae Jacobson (27:26) Thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful.