Latest / Learn Literacy Podcast / 7. Rima Patel - OG Practitioner
Transcript
- Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Learn Literacy podcast. Here at Learn Literacy, we support language for life through ⁓ teaching literacy through structure and language. So today I'm really excited for this practitioner profile and I'm here with Reema Patel and she's in England. So welcome Reema, thank you for being here. Rima Patel: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here today. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Well, anytime we can talk about OG and literacy is exciting, think, for everybody. ⁓ thanks so much for being here. ⁓ I usually start by asking people about their OG journey. And I'm particularly interested in yours because you don't ⁓ come from an education background. You found OG and are now here, which is exciting. Rima Patel: Yep. Yeah, I think in a way OG found me. I only knew about, found out about OG about just over a year ago. I never knew about it before. It was just, I have two little boys that were six years old at the time and they're learning to read. And I was in a place in my life where I wanted to stop, like move from healthcare. And I wanted to go into teaching because I was very interested in phonics and I was helping with phonics at home. Cheryl Urbanczyk: of meat. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: And I'd moved from being a pharmacist to teaching pharmacy. But I wanted to move from that to teaching children. I didn't know how to. And just it happened to be an ad going around in the school about Orton Gillingham and if you'd like to know more. And, know, it's a structured literacy program. And I thought, what? And it said no experience required. And I thought, OK, maybe they consider me. And when I for the interview, ⁓ I did mention I know phonics and I'm helping my boys with that. don't know and they said that's absolutely fine. Skills are transferable. And when, and I was fortunate enough to actually shadow a, well the tutor at the time was associate level, six months and I found it amazing. And I started using these techniques just from shadowing with my boys to help them at home with their phonics. And I thought, what, I want to do this. And then I went on to the course and just from having that six months of observation, it really helped me understand the approach and I felt like it all just fitted together. So that was maybe my journey, yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Well, neat. It's probably made the training more rich when you had some of that exposure ahead of time and maybe helped you fit the pieces together. Yeah. Rima Patel: It really did. Yeah, it really did because when I went on to the course, a lot of things like, oh, I've seen that and I've realized why you do that now. And I think some of the people that were on the course, they were asking questions that probably if they had shadowed before, they wouldn't need to. And I think shadowing something, if anyone's thinking about teaching or doing or thinking, just find someone, if you can shadow them, definitely do it because it... Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. Rima Patel: makes the process so much easier, you understand a lot more. Coming from me who doesn't know anything about teaching, so I know a lot of people that does the course are teachers, it would be second hand really, yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. But that's the interesting thing though, because many of them learn how to teach literacy under a completely different approach or viewpoint. when they took teacher training and, literacy approaches have gone through, I don't know, swings back and forth on phonics, or is it this or that? And so a lot of them are coming and sometimes you have to unlearn things to make space for new understandings and learn to move forward. Whereas you're coming just like, just ready. ⁓ Rima Patel: Yeah, blank slate, blank slate. I mean, I knew a little about the phonics because how they teach in school is not ideal in our school. And I know in England how they teach is large chunks of sounds in one week, be 10 new sounds. And all of a sudden you just have to flash the cards and you're meant to learn. And it might work for all the children, not necessarily for all of them. And obviously if you have dyslexia or other learning needs, it's not easy at all. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Right. Rima Patel: And it did open my eyes and I thought if it has opened my eyes so much, if it's for a teacher to discourse, just blow your mind. They'll think, okay, I can use things in my class to help these students who are struggling. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so when you say it opened your your eyes like what's an example of something? Rima Patel: Well, for one it's like, think one of my, because I have twins, one of them got the sounds just like that, like in phonics they have different phases here. One was struggling, so I used when I was shadowing the approach was just one sound at a time, until he's mastered it. The next one, because just giving them so many sounds is very confusing, it's stressful for them and they don't want to read because they find it hard, they don't enjoy it. And I think if a teacher found them in school, find that students that struggle, get, well, lucky enough to have teaching assistants and the teaching assistants will try to help them. ⁓ But course the teaching assistants are not qualified. So they don't know, they end up just babysitting these children ⁓ and children don't get anywhere. And the parents are told, ⁓ they'll catch up eventually and they never do. But if had this training, these teaching assistants would be able to help these ⁓ students that struggling. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: in small groups perhaps or even one on one. So I think that's what the eye-opener would be if teachers took this course as well. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Yeah, well that's really neat. So how do you find, let's say, supports for kids in school? Like you mentioned the teaching assistant, but for kids with very extensive needs or like dyslexic or learning disability, do they have any programs or supports from what you've seen? ⁓ Rima Patel: From what seen, they don't. I think it's a shame that they don't. I feel like kids just struggle. And they do in our schools, they send them back for phonics, they send them back a couple of years ⁓ to phonics with earlier years. ⁓ But approach is still the same. So those children still can't get past it. They've had that approach before and it's not working. ⁓ And like you're just going up an escalator, going down, ⁓ trying climb up and you're not getting anywhere. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. This is this is this right. Rima Patel: ⁓ So I feel like with schools, even with testing in England especially, children don't get tested unless the parents really push for it. it's thought because parents don't realise until it's too late sometimes ⁓ because keep thinking they will catch up. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Well, when you're, yeah, when you're told they'll catch on or, some of these other things, late bloomer or whatever, what have you, ⁓ you to trust the expertise of the people talking to you. ⁓ Rima Patel: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: But I really liked your escalator analogy. I think that's really neat. And it reminds me a bit of my daughter's journey because other kids, like a lot of times they get the same thing again, but just time, ⁓ like slower. And ⁓ after a couple of times in that, it's still not working, we keep doing that same thing over again, ⁓ just more slower. ⁓ ⁓ Rima Patel: Yes. Yeah. It's actually with a boy I have right now. He's in the same year as my boys and his mum came to us because it wasn't, we advertised as struggling readers. doesn't, you don't have to be dyslexic. She doesn't know because he's not diagnosed. But she the school, she goes she's left it too late. She said the school said he'll catch up and she feels like he hasn't got anywhere. And he started us about six months ago and he could not even put Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: I mean, CVC words together. And now he's putting six words together just from this approach. So it makes such a big difference. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Amazing. how do you ⁓ your work? Do you do tutoring only virtually or in person? ⁓ Rima Patel: So most of my students are virtually, but with that six year old I mentioned, he is face to face because he has, I think, other undiagnosed learning needs that we, know, but virtually online I have about eight students now, which I think I'm at my now, it's one of the best. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Wow, ⁓ Rima Patel: I really enjoy it and the students, it's just amazing to see the progress they make in such a short period of time and I feel like they can see it as well after a while. I just had a session before I had this and the girl said to me, she's a 14 year old girl and she said, oh I feel like I read a lot better now out loud and I said yeah I'm glad you noticed that and I said your comprehension is getting better too and I think she feels that and it's really amazing to see, you feel like you're making a difference for these children. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mmm. Thanks. Yeah, that's so profound that example, especially when the students notice and I think, those instructional principles of that individualization, that emotional soundness that paying attention like to the mental health and well being of the structure of the lesson and showing the students that they can be successful after years of not ⁓ successful ⁓ is really Rima Patel: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Okay, I have a question. And this could be maybe because I'm not familiar with all the dialects in England, but in your virtual lessons, does everyone kind of speak the same British dialect as you do ⁓ not? And so how do you support that? Because I have like, different sounds in my brain of different dialects. So how do you engage with that and support the student? Rima Patel: No, absolutely not. I have a boy who's up north, I'm pretty much in the middle of England. I don't know, have a London accent. That doesn't help. But he has a very Northern accent. And you find with Northern accents, another girl actually, and they schwa a lot of the sounds. And I find like, I have to stop myself from doing that as well because when you speak normally in the British accent, you do schwa the sounds because it's like slang. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rima Patel: We support that because I just demonstrate, I'm always very aware of the schwa sounds and I keep demonstrating whenever they schwa a sound and they get them to repeat and eventually they do it themselves. So the only way. ⁓ the other accents it's not too difficult. ⁓ don't know, it because I just live in England and I used to the other accents? ⁓ But it doesn't seem too bad. I will say ladder. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maybe, ⁓ Rima Patel: but they say and they still spell it correctly so ⁓ it's just you understand them, just the understanding of it, yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Okay. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. exactly. ⁓ like the short vowel keywords and things aren't too much of a concern. Kids just do that out and stuff. ⁓ that's neat. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. that's neat. Yeah, sometimes like it makes me wonder. Rima Patel: and not, no, no. You can just demonstrate once they copy, they pick it up so fast and they'll just start copying you eventually, Cheryl Urbanczyk: know, within our context here, the more concern is multi-language learners as opposed to like a lot of different dialects of English. ⁓ it's interesting to think about how we can support the students and what they're bringing to the lesson and figure out how to still work with the sound structure and ⁓ things like Rima Patel: Yeah. Right, yes. Although I haven't got anyone in Scotland, think if I had a child in Scotland I would find it difficult too because I find Scottish accent very difficult to understand. you never know. I might have to give you some feedback on that if I ever do get a child from Scotland. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That would be really neat. Exactly. so in terms of your OG practice, ⁓ you ⁓ seen impact and things like that. Is ⁓ someone who's new in their practice, what do you finding as, key learnings for yourself or challenges that you've seen or even surprises in what you're doing? Rima Patel: ⁓ I think the key learnings I had was never underestimate approach or the child just ⁓ just because, yeah, just because I have, I had a child start with me, it's been a few months and she know half of my letter names. ⁓ And when Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ my gosh, I would love that. It's easy to do both. ⁓ Mm-hmm. and how old is the student. Rima Patel: When I did the assessment, I found and I thought, how long will this take? I was wondering how long will I have to do letter names? And it turned out the time we'd done four sessions, she knew her letter names. And ⁓ just blew my mind, like how powerful this approach is. And ⁓ mum, who is a teaching assistant, couldn't believe it. She just, she said, I went to school and I said, I can't believe ⁓ my daughter knows the difference between you and why. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Yeah. Rima Patel: and it's only been a month and she must have tried with her for a couple of years at least to do it but obviously the approach they're using is not the right one so it doesn't stick in their long-term memory and I think just me being new to teaching it just I just thought wow and I mean in terms of challenges I think the main challenge I have is probably like balancing the repetition Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: with attention and motivation. Because OG there's a lot of over-learning and some kids will be like, okay I've already done this before but it hasn't stuck yet, it's not in long-term memory. So you really have to be creative and ⁓ of games and way to teach it to keep them engaged. ⁓ I think that's challenge and probably another challenge would be where can we students who don't have a formal diagnosis? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: Because when you see a diagnosis, can tell, these are the areas I need to work on. But when they don't, you just have to really go by what you see in the session, what your observations are. So a couple of challenges, yeah, as a new teacher. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ that's neat. So, OK, I'm trying to think what want to follow up on. ⁓ I think in terms of not underestimating ⁓ student or the method, that's so... insightful because I think a lot of times people just want to rush to rush fast. You know what I mean? Like, ⁓ see this kid, they need so much remediation, but it is a process and it takes time and just kind of trusting that process and even trusting yourself as a practitioner delivering that, that you can get there. And then how old was that student that you mentioned? Rima Patel: Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Eight years old. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Eight. Yeah. So still significant delays based because you would think, okay, by kindergarten or age five or whatever they call kindergarten in England, that they would have had all their letter sounds, so that's, that's. ⁓ Yeah. Rima Patel: yes, absolutely. And I think that's what shocked the mum as well. But like you said, with rushing, I think I would advise any tutor, what you do is never rush, never rush the process for the student or for yourself, no matter how tedious it seems. That's one thing I've learned because it takes time, but you will get there. It's a marathon, not a sprint. So that's the main thing. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that's so true. Yep. Yeah. I that the ways of making that repetition or practice ⁓ look and meaningful ⁓ is challenge everyone, regardless of where you are on the spectrum. ⁓ think, just more experience you get, or maybe you get different resources, it, I feel like I have 20 versions of the same thing, but the kids don't know. It's all that, ⁓ but it is Rima Patel: Yes. Yep. Cheryl Urbanczyk: And I think too, because can tell me what you're, think of this, that in school, they're so used to just like a quick review and the next thing that they don't, they don't get why the quantity of review is there, because it's just so different. Rima Patel: Yeah, yeah, I think school, just, they have a schedule to follow and it's quite difficult. And I understand it. They do have a lot to get through, but then the ones that fall behind just, I mean, the school just carries on and then there's this gap gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And then it gets to a point of like, okay, it's like almost crisis level, right? And the gap is so big. Rima Patel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. yeah. Especially when they get a little bit older. I've got a couple of 14 year olds. And I think the parents have come to us were in panic mode, because they've just been like they're 14. And, in here, we have GCSE exams at 16 before they go on to do their A levels, but the parents Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: do seem to be like, ⁓ can they be GCSE ready? And you're thinking, well, no, we can only go fast as the child. Yeah. So I mean, hard, it's hard. I can understand in the parent's point of view, you are, you're stressing ⁓ you're worried about your child. And it's hard. It's a hard process, they just got to allow the process. I said, you need to stick with it. It's the main thing. Stick with it. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, just give it a month or two, right? It is hard. It is hard. Yes. Rima Patel: Consistency, turn up to all your sessions. Do not miss and give it time. Give it time and you will see a difference. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm hmm. exactly. ⁓ the analogy I like to use is, when you look down a road and it kind of meets at the end, that's kind of our goal, but it's ⁓ way over there. like time to get there. Rima Patel: Yes. Yes. That's good and I'm here. Cheryl Urbanczyk: What do you think is some learning for you that you would like to explore to adding to your background knowledge or experiences or instructional practices? Rima Patel: I think I would probably want to learn more about the for younger learners ⁓ or especially with autism. As I I do have a very young one that I have a face to face session. I think perhaps we suspect undiagnosed on the spectrum. obviously, you you have barriers. And I sometimes feel like can hit a wall and then I feel like okay how how do I get over how do I overcome this and I think perhaps I'd like to learn more about that especially with the younger ones because the younger ones it's hard to get them to sit down sometimes let alone let them get through a whole lesson so ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think attention span just because of the age, right? And then if they have more things going on than, ⁓ say, just reading it, it is a little different. Yeah, ⁓ had in of the trainings I ⁓ did, was a person who has an autism background and Rima Patel: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: did ABA her ⁓ in the class was really interesting because she thought OG and their approach were very similar in that it breaks down things into very small, discrete steps and then you kind of build things back up again. like I'm you on that because I think we get so many kids for tutoring that have other things ⁓ that with them and ⁓ we a wider. ⁓ Rima Patel: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: toolkit or whatever the phrase is to support and and know to meet them where they are. ⁓ Yes. ⁓ Rima Patel: Yes, definitely with the overlapping profiles. think a couple of mine that are diagnosed with dyslexia also have ADHD. So one of them actually sits on an exercise ball, which keeps her attention focused. One of them I find I have to draw the attention back in, like, come on, first focus, let's focus. And she tends to wander off into different conversations. And I have to draw. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Okay, right. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: but that might be bit of avoidance as well, avoid doing the work. But yeah, it is hard to just get through a lesson sometimes all the other distractions going on. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. exactly. No, so true. So what do you find about awareness in general of Orton Gillingham in ⁓ and ⁓ areas? Are people very aware of it or not? Or it's ⁓ of new still or? ⁓ Rima Patel: I feel like if you say Orton Gillingham in England, no one will know what we mean. The British Dyslexia Association, I mean the training they provide is based on Orton Gillingham, but there's nowhere, have they written that? They've taken basis of it and the approach and they've developed a training program. I feel like right now we are working on trying to raise Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Okay. Rima Patel: And I've made a British Orton Gillingham page on Facebook, which only some of the mums have joined, but slowly we're thinking school by school, we want to raise awareness and hopefully in the future we'll have a fellow in England where we want to train people in schools. That's the aim. That is the aim. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Exactly. wow. That's a lot of work. And thank you for doing all that. That's amazing to bring things forward. ⁓ I Canada is somewhere in between. ⁓ Like, there's growing awareness OG, but... Rima Patel: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: we don't have enough people with, let's say fellows or training to, to manage the whole country, there's lots of room for learning and and stuff too. I find people who do start tutoring, they fill right up and, amazed at how fast Rima Patel: Absolutely, yeah. we need. Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: it takes to get filled up. doesn't take long. Rima Patel: know. As soon as you say is your child struggling to read, you'll probably have so many within 10 minutes come up to you on a Facebook group and you think okay I don't have time, I want to help everyone but I don't know how to do it. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, high capacity, exactly. It's hard. puts lot of pressure on families when they have to find ⁓ ⁓ themselves if the school system doesn't have the supports in place. ⁓ Rima Patel: Yeah, absolutely. Cheryl Urbanczyk: All right, let's see. What are your future goals and plans? I know you're working on your practicum at the associate level. Where do you see, after that, do you have any idea about continuing training or learning or, keep tutoring for a bit? What are you thinking? Rima Patel: I think probably I'd want at least a good couple of years under my belt to get very much experience. ⁓ And like I said, we have someone working on being a fellow in England. So she might need a backup for me to be her one person because I think it's only once I qualify, hopefully fingers crossed, there will be only three in England, ⁓ which is not many, but. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thanks Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: think if you really want to push it in and I do want to take the next level and carry on training and try to go around to as many schools as possible and just say there's this training available ⁓ and get many teachers on board as we can. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm, that's amazing. And I think, because you have a community of people there who can support each other, that's ⁓ really good So you're not working in isolation and, ⁓ help solve problems or, do I do this with this student? It's nice to have ⁓ someone to talk to. ⁓ Rima Patel: Yes, it's nice to have also someone who's got experience and give you some advice. Sometimes it's really simple, but you just haven't thought of it. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Well, and that's it. And that's what learning is, right? Sometimes you can just not see it yourself. yeah. Okay. Well, as we wrap up, I like to ask people what advice they like to give. And I know you shared some already, but I didn't know if there was any other of advice you'd like to share with practitioners or maybe something you would have liked to have heard or learned as advice along the way. Rima Patel: So be aware that Orton Gillingham ⁓ ⁓ but not rigid, ⁓ it's But I just want to add that that structure does matter, but the responsiveness matters just as much. ⁓ So ⁓ it's all what the child does in that particular session, in that moment. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rima Patel: what you do next. it's good to have that structure ⁓ but free to do once you've done this course and you've really got it under your belt you know what you're doing. You can see how you can help a child you can really see like okay well he needs help here or here. Yeah like I said it's the main thing is rush ⁓ and responsiveness ⁓ flexible structure that's the thing. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you have so good gems to share. It's amazing. But I just love that because, ⁓ sometimes, if you from having a book and a script, it's hard to think kind of, I don't know if outside the box is the right phrase for that or not. But you have that tension or interplay between, ⁓ my knowledge and how do I respond? And I think that's where sometimes the gap is for, even me or other practitioners like, ⁓ I see this, ⁓ what do I next to help the student? And you, you know, you learn, you figure it out, you move from there, but it's all in response to what the student is giving you instead of, okay, now I'm on page 63, now we're on page 64. You know what I mean? ⁓ Rima Patel: Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly it. Cheryl Urbanczyk: And so that's really amazing. awesome. ⁓ so you, ⁓ will continue doing OG with your own children to help them with their literacy and keep using them as like practice? ⁓ It yeah. Rima Patel: Yes. I do, it's very difficult to teach your own children. But I do try doing small chunks and they do like doing it because I use an online version of like blending and things like that. So they just find it is different, but it's very different when it's mommy teaching and not a teacher. yeah, yeah. But I'm definitely gonna try, especially to help them with their spelling. Because I feel like they learn their phonics and all of sudden, Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ neat. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It always is. Yeah. No, for sure. next Rima Patel: They just need to know all these spellings off by heart, but they don't know how or why. Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ Okay, so in schools there's not that connection like in the OG lesson between reading and spelling ⁓ would say here too like ⁓ have a lot of push for phonics but not the spelling side of things so hopefully maybe that'll be next we'll see. ⁓ ⁓ Well you very much Rima I really appreciate you being here with us today and Rima Patel: No, it's absolutely not. Yeah, I guess it's the same around the world. Cheryl Urbanczyk: sharing your experience and your excitement and enthusiasm. And I think, your care for OG and the students you serve just comes through. And I think, they're really lucky to have you working with them and getting all that great forward momentum and movement in their literacy skills. So thank you. Yeah. ⁓ Rima Patel: Thank so much. Thank you for saying that. I hope I just grow and grow and get better and better as I go along. But thank you so much for having me. Cheryl Urbanczyk: you're welcome. Thank you. ⁓ Rima Patel: Thank you.