Latest / Coffee People Podcast / Chuck Patton, Chuck's Roasts and Patton Coffee Consultants (VIDEO)

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Chuck Patton, Chuck's Roasts and Patton Coffee Consultants (VIDEO) · Coffee People Podcast

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1:18
None. Hey there everyone, welcome to
1:19
the Coffee People podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Waltz.
1:22
This show is presented by Rostar Coffee Packaging found online at
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rostar.com. They've been a great source of
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support, helping enable us to tell the stories of people in
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the coffee industry and we really appreciate that.
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You can also go to roastwestcoast.com to find
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recaps of this show, our Coffee Smarter podcast, so much other
1:42
coffee content. And if you haven't poured
1:44
yourself a cup of coffee like I have, now is the time to get
1:47
started. Our guest today is Chuck Patton,
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the founder and head roaster of Chuck's Roasts.
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He's also the human being behind Patent Coffee Consulting and was
1:56
the original founder of the iconic Bird Rock Coffee
1:59
Roasters. You can find him online at
2:01
chuckroastscoffee.com. Course.
2:03
Those links will be in all of our show notes wherever you're
2:05
listening. Mr. Patton, welcome to our
2:08
podcast today. Well, thanks for having me.
2:10
I'm excited to be here. I should memorize all that.
2:12
I've said it like 300 times, but it just seems like a lot of
2:15
work. I mentioned that at the top
2:19
there that you got started, or at least I, I know of your start
2:23
as Bird Rock Coffee, but I'm wondering if before that even
2:27
what got you into coffee in the 1st place?
2:29
You know, was there a moment or memory that you thought, Man,
2:31
this is interesting. Yeah, You know, I, I was
2:35
thinking about that and then I guess my earliest memory of
2:38
coffee. I grew up here in San Diego,
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actually very close to where we live now in Bird Rock.
2:44
And I think my, my earliest memory of coffee, my, my parents
2:49
would entertain quite a bit, have friends over all the time.
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And every time they had company, I would go with my mom and we'd
2:57
go over to a place called The Panic and which was really known
3:00
as one of the first coffee houses, not just in Southern
3:03
California, but definitely in San Diego and kind of an iconic
3:06
place, but across the street from the Panic.
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And they had a store, they would sell coffee equipment and of
3:15
course, roasted coffee and bulk tea that kind of, and I, I will
3:21
never forget the smell of walking into that, that, that
3:24
powerful roasted coffee smell when you go into a store that
3:27
has bins of roasted coffee. And my mom would buy some coffee
3:31
there and then go home and after dinner, she would brew that
3:33
coffee in a, in a Chemex. And this is probably, you know,
3:36
mid 70s, late late 70s. And I can distinctly remember I,
3:39
I didn't, I was too young to drink the coffee, but I just
3:41
remembered loving the smell. She would grind it up on one of
3:44
those little home grinders at the time.
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They were kind of like a, it was kind of like a spice smell
3:48
basically. But it was the smell and just
3:51
watching the process and the ritual that always, always
3:53
fascinated me, especially because what they drank was U
3:57
ban in a can with a Mr. Coffee, you know, seven days a week.
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And so this was kind of a special event and and certainly
4:07
the smell was nothing, you know, the smell of that fresh, fresh
4:11
roasted coffee was nothing like the smell of EU ban.
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And so I guess that would be my first real kind of memory of
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coffee and how special coffee can be and how and how people
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use coffee and, and the ritual of coffee and that and that
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comes all wrapped up into that that event and then kind of got
4:28
into to to drinking coffee. And as I got older, of course,
4:32
in, in high school, it was more about getting the buzz, the
4:37
caffeine buzz and, you know, having that before, you know,
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going to school, meeting some friends for breakfast or
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something and seeing how much coffee we could drink and, and,
4:45
you know, getting the shakes during that first period of
4:47
class. And then I think probably I was
4:52
kind of starting to get into coffee in, in college.
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And certainly right after college, my wife and I moved to
4:59
Japan for a year and I was seeing things in, in Japan that
5:03
I hadn't hadn't seen here. Their coffee culture was was far
5:06
different than at least what was going on in San Diego at the
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time. And this was to been mid 90s
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ninety 3. And a lot of the cafes there
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used as the siphon or the vacuum brewing and they were all into
5:19
brewing by the cup. And I thought that was
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fascinating. And the and the flavor, you
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know, blew blew me away a lot of the times there.
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And then when we moved back, we actually ended up in San
5:28
Francisco and that had a little bit more of a coffee culture
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going on than than Southern California at the time.
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So many of the so many of the, sorry, I was going to say, so
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many of the stories I hear from people, their first coffee
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memories involve a grandmother usually.
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And I think that's such an interesting way to connect.
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I have these tin enamel coffee mugs that my grandmother had in
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her house and I still have the cast iron grinder that was
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mounted on the wall of the kitchen at the farm.
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That's awesome. I've used.
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It. It doesn't work well.
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That was in central Wisconsin that that grinders kind of like
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taking 2 cast iron pans and just smashing them together.
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There's not much delicate balance there.
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Well, I think that's, that's how powerful coffee is.
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I mean, we, we, we kind of take it for granted.
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But there are also many moments over coffee or the, OR like I
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said earlier, the ritual of coffee that you're exposed to as
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a, as a, as a young kid that just stay with you or can stay
6:30
with you and have that power to, to, to make you think about
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coffee as something different from just a commodity and
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something different from a way just to make it through work or
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make it to school. So you come back from Japan.
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Japan's coffee culture is always seemingly a step or two ahead.
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To everyone else, and like I said, I had never seen anyone
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even attempt to do coffee by the cup before, and that's kind of
6:55
was an interesting concept. And then it was San Francisco
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and I was more, you know, San Francisco had some independent
7:01
cafes, but it was certainly wasn't 3rd wave coffee level.
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When we moved back down to San Diego then it was kind of
7:11
starting to get into the espresso thing, getting an
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espresso maker, getting an espresso.
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And then and about 9097 or or 98, my wife got me a home
7:22
roaster. And that's really when I started
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to, to experiment with, you know, obviously roasting, but
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really appreciating the differences between the
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different origins and, and varietals.
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I mean, before that it was, it was either Starbucks or Pete's.
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And, and even though those two companies would sell a Sumatran
7:40
coffee or Colombian coffee based on their, their level of roast,
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it was often not a huge difference between between
7:49
their, their, their so. So that was pretty cool, you
7:53
know, getting all the beans from, I got all the beans from
7:55
Sweet Maria's. And, and yeah, that was really
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the start of it. I was still teaching at the
8:00
time, but that was. I was going to ask that you you
8:03
must have had another career. You're you're teaching.
8:07
What made you decide that you wanted to take the step from
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hobbyist to I think I could make some money doing this, and then
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I actually want to do this every day?
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I was, I was an adjunct at Grossmont College, City College,
8:22
National University. I think I was also doing a gig
8:28
at an ESL school at the time. So, I mean, part of it was, it
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was, it was a profession and I, I worked more than full time,
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but I, I didn't have a tenure track job.
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And so, and it's kind of known as a freeway flyer.
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I would drive out to Grossmont in the morning and then downtown
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in the afternoon and National City in the evening.
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And that was just a grind. And, and I was kind of really
8:54
enjoying the coffee thing. And then what I started to do, I
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started to do both at the same time.
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The La Jolla farmers market I got, I got a booth in the La
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Jolla's farmers market. So I would roast, you know,
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maybe Thursday or Friday night out of my garage and then I
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would sell that coffee on Sunday morning at at the LOI Farmers
9:13
Market while still teaching full time Monday through Friday.
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Sure, you had a side hustle before the rest of us.
9:18
Yeah, I think, you know, that was that was good.
9:23
And then as that started to get a little bit more popular, you
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know, my wife had a really stable job at the time.
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And, and she was, we had good insurance.
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And so I was able to kind of make that leap because you
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can't, you can only do that side hustle for so long and then you
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have to either forget about it or, or, or go for it.
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And so luckily I was afforded the opportunity to go for it.
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And then we evolved into having the Cafe in in Bird Rock and
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then rest of history, I guess, and.
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I don't want to spend this whole show talking about bird rock.
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I think we usually could. There was a lot of history there
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and I look, I kind of think of Bird Rock as, as I'm looking
10:07
around San Diego's coffee scene now, it's like the coaching tree
10:12
in football. So many people that have their
10:14
own coffee shops or their own roasteries now got their start
10:17
there or learned there or, you know, and, and moved on.
10:20
And that's a legacy that, you know, just continues to expand
10:23
and expand. I'd also like to take a moment
10:26
to toast to your wife and to my wife who also has good insurance
10:29
and enables me to do what I am doing, at least right now.
10:35
You, how long were you? Was Bird Rock running as a
10:39
roaster under you and your and your family?
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Well, I found it in 2002 and at the time, you know, I didn't
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really have a location. Like I said early on, I was just
10:50
roasting out of my garage and then that was technically
10:54
illegal. I had, you had to use a
10:56
commissary to do any food prep. And so the, the VFW, there's a
11:00
VFW on turquoise and they allowed me to roast in there
11:03
once they started to, to get a little more volume.
11:07
And then I think I'm going to say around 2003 or 4, I actually
11:15
purchased a, a company called Destinations and we did it with
11:18
a home equity line of credit. And it was a guy who was
11:22
operating in La Jolla. And it was just a wholesale
11:23
business that he had out in Miramar.
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And around that time, I, I needed to buy a bigger roaster.
11:29
I think I was using a Dietrich IR 3 and operating out of a
11:32
kiosk on Turquoise. But I really needed to, to step
11:35
it up because I was starting to get some wholesale accounts.
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And so I bought, we bought his company and his book of sales
11:42
and the roaster and that was out in Miramar.
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And then we moved everything in in 2006 to the Bird Rock
11:48
location. And then we opened the roasting
11:52
facility on Linda Rosa, I think in around 2014 or 15.
11:57
And then the shortly after that, the Little Italy location.
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And then we sold in 2016, so 2002 to 2016.
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That coincides with my arrival here ever.
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I mean, the news that you were selling was big news to the
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people that, you know, I was in hospitality and I'd met a few
12:14
people and I lived in that area just South of of Bird Rock
12:19
Coffee's original location there, that Cafe location.
12:22
And so it was certainly something people were talking
12:24
about. And it, it was kind of a
12:27
precursor to a bunch of brewery sales that were about to happen.
12:30
And in our marketplace, what was the impetus?
12:34
You're running a business from the outside.
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People are going, oh, this is cool.
12:37
And it must be a lot of fun and doing this.
12:39
What? Why sell?
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You ended up selling to Jeff Taylor of P TS Coffee.
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Right. Yeah, I think we, we just, we,
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that's a difficult question to answer and I'm trying to figure
12:52
out a good way to answer this. I think.
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I think really in a nutshell, we never figured out how to run the
12:56
company, how the company would run without us.
12:59
And so I think some owners are really good at, at say pros and
13:07
cons to it, but some owners are really good at, at being able to
13:09
step back and saying, Hey, this is your manager's
13:11
responsibility. You know, you deal with it.
13:13
I'm, I'm going on vacation for, for two weeks or whatever.
13:15
And we were never able to really figure out how to do that.
13:18
So it was really a seven day week operation.
13:21
And when you get up to about 50 employees in multiple locations,
13:25
you're pretty much dealing with something every couple weeks,
13:28
either an employee issue or you're dealing with equipment
13:31
issue or a customer issue, obviously.
13:35
And it just begins to wear on you after a while.
13:37
And, and it was basically, we were just overworked and
13:44
starting to get a bit burnt out. And then, so I think there was
13:49
actually one Sunday in particular.
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I was, we, we decided to not work on a Sunday.
13:55
It was, you know, crazy, right? So when we decided to take our
13:58
bikes and, and go around the Bay and I remember we were halfway
14:01
around the Bay and I get a call from Bird Rock saying the some
14:04
plumbing issue that they couldn't figure out what the
14:06
problem was because I put the plumbing issue in.
14:08
So I knew exactly what the problem was.
14:09
So of course I had to turn the bike around and ride up there
14:12
and on the way. I'm just saying this isn't
14:13
really a quality of, I mean, the quality of life that we're
14:17
living isn't really what we should be enjoying.
14:20
So it was really about that. It was really about if I maybe
14:23
in hindsight, if we had figured out a better way to take time to
14:27
step back and and do some, you know, self-care or more
14:32
vacations or recharge, so to speak, we maybe would still own
14:36
the company, but we didn't. Now, now that can be thought of
14:41
as kind of a negative, but the positive was, I mean, I visited
14:46
every location every day and I was constantly involved in the
14:50
quality control and I was constantly involved.
14:52
Obviously Heather and Tony were, were our roasters and, and then
14:56
Nick and Heather and, but I was, still had a hand in the
15:00
roasting. And so I was still intimately
15:03
involved in the business. And I think that the plus side
15:06
of that is as far as a quality and from a, from a customer's
15:09
perspective, I mean, there was, I think very rarely a quality
15:13
issue on the customer's part. And that was primarily because I
15:16
was so involved as an owner and making sure the place was clean
15:20
and, and making sure, you know, helping out when I needed to
15:22
help out. So all was kind of available.
15:23
So that's kind of the flip side of of being kind of a more of a
15:26
hands on owner. Yeah, I mean, nobody will ever
15:29
see it the way that you see it. It's yours, you know, it's I
15:33
always tried to to treat places I worked at like that.
15:36
But even then there's a step between me and whoever was the
15:40
owner or whoever was the thing, because I could only see so much
15:43
because I didn't have maybe all the context of every location or
15:46
whatever it might be. Well, plus you want your
15:50
employees to to understand that the owner is invested and
15:53
involved and, and, and there I never wanted to give the idea
15:58
that the employees were working for a manager.
16:01
I mean, obviously there was a manager in charge or shift lead
16:03
in in charge. But everyone I think needs to
16:06
understand that, OK, the owner has a vested interest in this.
16:09
The owner's actually coming into work.
16:11
The owner's, yeah, actually willing with some stuff.
16:15
So I think that's important. I think mostly.
16:18
Came from Martin Dietrich. I, I, I got to give Martin all
16:22
the credit in the world of that before we opened, I went up and,
16:25
and sat with, and for those of you who don't know, Martin
16:27
Dietrich was, was part of the Dietrich coffee brand that was
16:32
pretty ubiquitous in Southern California.
16:34
And of course, Dietrich Roasters is, is the same family.
16:39
And he just gave me that piece of advice.
16:41
He said you never want to expand to the point where you can't
16:43
visit every location every day and that was how he designed
16:47
Keen Coffee, which is what he is his company is now.
16:50
And I, I kind of took that to heart and it made a lot of sense
16:53
to me. I never wanted anyone to think
16:55
that I wouldn't do what I was asking them to do.
16:58
And I think most of my employees always just felt bad for me.
17:02
And so they step up to do more because they saw how tired I was
17:05
all the time. So you sell and all of a sudden
17:09
you have this kind of clean slate, you know, what are you
17:13
doing with yourself? You know, and now it's been how
17:16
many years you've decided to come back.
17:18
How did that all transpire? Yeah.
17:21
Well, I, I wasn't exact. Well, you know, I worked for for
17:23
Jeff as a coffee buyer and kind of helped make that transition
17:27
for our growing partners for about a year or so.
17:32
And then I went back to teaching at USD.
17:37
In this case, I taught for about a year at USD and I think I
17:42
didn't want anything to do with coffee for a while.
17:47
But as I was teaching, and I also was teaching at an ESL
17:51
school and then up at Nam, which is the National Association of
17:54
Music Merchants. We have a headquarters up in
17:57
Carlsbad and I was working with their museum up there.
18:01
But kind of gradually I kind of got back into, you know,
18:05
thinking about coffee and if I was going to get back into
18:07
coffee and how, how would I do it and how, what would I not do
18:10
and what would I do better? And, and really what it came
18:14
down to in a, in a nutshell, was trying to set something up that
18:17
was more education based and high, you know, super high on
18:22
quality coffee. On the education part.
18:25
I, I, I love my, my part of my favorite things about, about
18:30
having Bird Rock coffee was educating the customers about
18:34
either how coffee is bought and sold.
18:35
And I did a weekly free cupping every Friday in Bird Rock for
18:40
well over 10 years. And that wasn't just an awesome
18:43
opportunity for me to explain, you know, what exactly is coffee
18:47
buying and how do people do it? And I want to continue to do
18:50
that. And then the the act of teaching
18:52
people how to roast and then also helping other people coming
18:56
up in in the coffee business as far as kind of giving them some
19:01
advice or counsel about how to start a coffee business and
19:05
maybe some things they should avoid and some things they
19:07
should do should should do as they're as they're figuring
19:10
stuff out. So how can I kind of put all
19:12
this stuff together? Then during COVID, I bought AI
19:15
guess small decent from a company in Cape Town that wasn't
19:18
using it. And it sat in our garage for
19:20
about two years in a crate to, to Elkie my wife's dismay,
19:24
because it was taking up a lot of space.
19:26
But then I was kind of throwing these ideas around, kind of
19:31
conceptualizing what was going to happen.
19:32
And then it came down to, OK, where am I going to put it?
19:36
And it doesn't really it it well, I was thinking at least at
19:40
first, didn't really pencil to rent my own space because I
19:44
didn't know how it was going to go.
19:45
And it was I knew it was going to be super small scale.
19:47
And then Chris from coffee cycle was opening up the OB space and
19:52
offered a little kind of corner in his face to sublease.
19:55
And that was really a perfect opportunity for me to to pull
19:58
the trigger and and see what's going to go, see how this is
20:00
going to go. So that's that's where I am now.
20:03
Well, and it's a little bit full circle because I think Chris
20:05
worked for you for like 7 years at at Bird Rock before going off
20:09
on his own to do coffee cycle. And then I worked for Chris for
20:14
a year when he opened his cafe. So there's this kind of weird
20:17
connection here. One of the things with Chuck's
20:21
roast. Obviously you, you went, you
20:24
know, on the nose. It's my coffee.
20:26
I'm roasting it. Let's call it Chuck's roast.
20:28
That was a bit. Of a problem because yeah, I
20:32
mean, part of it is marketing marks off and my expertise and
20:35
the ability to source coffee and roast coffee.
20:37
But like, you know, it's funny, when I was trying to think of of
20:41
a name for the company, all the cool names are now taken.
20:43
It's totally different than it was 20 years ago.
20:45
And I was asking, you know, I have, I know a couple of great
20:48
and a tube amp maker in town. And I was saying, Hey, can you,
20:52
are there any cool names of old amps or, or vacuum tubes I can
20:56
use? And, and the ones he presented
20:57
me were actually already taken by other coffee companies and,
21:00
you know, guitar maker kind of the same thing.
21:02
And so it came down to Chuck's roast, and it came really from a
21:05
joke with my friends trying to come up with a name and ground
21:09
Chuck what might have was in the running for a while.
21:12
And the great thing about Chuck roast is or chuck's roast is not
21:16
the great thing. But the thing I didn't really
21:18
think about it is how hard it is to now do a search for for
21:20
chuck's roast and you get a bunch of Chuck roast recipes.
21:23
You know, it doesn't actually. Yeah.
21:25
So I didn't really think that probably threw him all the way.
21:27
But yes, that's, that's what I'm stuck with now.
21:29
It's Chuck's roast. But overtime, overtime it'll
21:32
grow. But I want it.
21:34
I want to, I, I wrote this down. I just want to make sure that I
21:39
get it right. One of the things that I thought
21:41
was really interesting about what you're doing now is you
21:44
kind of you're, you acknowledge you're kind of looking beyond
21:49
just the baseline of specialty coffee.
21:51
I think, you know, it's specialty coffee, what we
21:55
describe as it or the quality level of it, say 83 plus points
21:59
if you care about that sort of thing.
22:01
It's pretty ubiquitous. You can go to almost any town in
22:03
America and get a, a pretty damn good cup of coffee.
22:06
Excuse my language. What I've noticed with some of
22:10
the offerings that you've been putting out and some of the the
22:12
way you've been presenting it is something special and unique.
22:15
How do you go about sourcing something that's the next thing
22:18
beyond what people have been drinking now for, say, 10 years?
22:23
Well, that opens up a lot of questions as far as how much of
22:25
that is out there. And, and there's been this kind
22:28
of side discussion that specialty coffee's over and
22:31
there's no more real good coffee.
22:32
And, and I think there is an you could make an argument that a
22:37
lot of the the top people aren't really selling exceptional
22:42
coffee, they're just selling good coffee.
22:43
So it's definitely not easy. And this is, this is one of the
22:50
things that's going to be difficult obviously going
22:52
forward is because a lot of times that I may only offer one
22:55
or two coffees on my offering sheet.
22:57
And I'm, I think what I would like to do is just offer copies
23:05
that, well, I mean, I said on the site just copies that I
23:09
like. And that kind of eliminates a
23:12
lot, a lot of coffees out there. Not, not or I really like, I
23:15
guess I should say. And so to go about sourcing
23:19
those coffees, you know, it takes a lot of, a lot of work, a
23:23
lot of getting samples in and not really worried about the
23:26
price of the coffee. And, and hopefully the consumers
23:30
that are going to buy coffee from me aren't so much worried
23:32
about that because a lot of them are going to be on the spend
23:35
your side. But for now, it's kind of
23:38
leveraging a lot of the contacts we had in at Bird Rock as far as
23:43
the brokers and the importers and going through some of their
23:48
offering sheets. Of course, you know, a cup of
23:49
excellence. Looking forward to doing that
23:51
this year. I'm not going to be doing as
23:53
many sourcing trips as I did and it doesn't really pencil with a
23:57
small scale that I'm doing. But I probably will go to at
24:00
least Panama this year, probably March and and maybe one other
24:06
Central American country. Not to get too personal and you
24:09
can tell me, you know, I'm not answering that you're on your
24:12
own. Does the does the, the finances
24:17
of this whole operation, How important is that over the, the
24:21
coffee, getting these coffees out to people?
24:23
And because when I think about, say, if I were talking to
24:27
somebody who was looking to start a coffee company and they,
24:30
you know, when we talk about coffee companies serving just
24:33
good coffee, maybe not great coffee, part of that is because
24:37
there's a mass audience there. There's a level you have to get
24:40
at. So you're making enough money to
24:41
stay in business, right? Is that something you're
24:44
factoring in here or is this more about, no, this is
24:47
important to me That'll come. I want this type of coffee to be
24:50
in the marketplace. Well, I think that'll come.
24:52
I, I do, I do think, and, and I can't, like I, I don't, I think
24:57
it's a mistake for a lot of younger coffee retailers, unless
25:01
you have a retail location to offer a wide range of coffee #1
25:06
So if I look at, at someone's like, let's just, if you're
25:09
imagining, OK, who the hip people are in the country that
25:12
are considered, you know, the best coffee people.
25:14
And a lot of them have 10 or 15 options on that.
25:18
And I think if you eliminate the eight of those, you're probably
25:25
going to be left with a couple really exceptional coffees.
25:27
And, and that's really what I'm, I'm, I'm going for as far as the
25:32
finances, you know, I would be first to say that this, we're, I
25:38
mean, this is the fourth month that Chuck roast has actually
25:41
officially been in business. And, and if we were renting a
25:45
place, it would not be sustainable at this point.
25:47
There's, there's no way. And you know, I, I, I owe Chris,
25:52
you know, a lot of that. It's just subleasing space and
25:54
not having utilities and a lot of the extra costs that are
25:58
associated with renting a space allows me to kind of get to the
26:04
point where maybe the, the brand is known and the, and the
26:08
coffees are becoming known before I get to that next phase.
26:12
Now, obviously they'll come a day when Chris needs the space
26:17
that I'm in, you know, as they're, as they're growing that
26:19
roasting operation and or they're going to have to roast
26:21
every day. And right now it's working out
26:23
really well because they aren't roasting every day and I'm
26:25
roasting on the days that they aren't roasting.
26:28
So I know that there's an end point when he's going to say,
26:31
Chuck, it's time for you to move on.
26:33
And I'm hoping by that point that I have.
26:36
And it's basically this whole situation has given me time to
26:38
kind of see if I can get to that point where I'm just offering a
26:43
small, small handful of coffees. Is that going to be sustainable?
26:46
Does, is this going to be penciling?
26:48
And I, I'd like the direction we're going.
26:50
I, I'd certainly like some of the successes I've seen so far.
26:52
But yeah, we'll see. We'll see.
26:57
You know, as somebody who drinks a lot of coffee from a lot of
26:59
different places, in part because of my work and in part
27:02
because of what I, I just enjoy going to new places.
27:06
I, I think you, you do have a, you hit the nail on the head
27:11
saying there's only so many excellent coffees being offered,
27:15
in part because I can count, as you know, it's the beginning of
27:17
2025 and I've been reflecting a little bit on 2024.
27:21
I think on one hand, I can count the number of coffees I drank
27:25
last year that when we stop and go, oh, that's exciting.
27:31
So when you're out there, you know, looking for those coffees
27:34
or when you're sourcing and, and trying to do that, you know,
27:39
what else is coming into play there?
27:41
I ask a little bit because I'm thinking about sustainability
27:44
and about our changing coffee culture and climate.
27:47
Are you able to find those excellent, excellent coffees?
27:50
And then also meet all the other factors or other criteria that
27:54
you might have personally putting into it.
27:58
Well, you know, that's a good, that's a good question.
28:01
And again, well kind of take a part of a couple things that you
28:07
said as far as thinking back on having a couple coffees in 2024
28:10
that you really made you stop and that would be the goal of my
28:14
entire offering sheet. So any coffee that someone gets
28:19
from Chuck's roast would have that effect on something.
28:22
Now, the, the flip side of that is everybody has different
28:26
tastes and different appreciation for a different
28:30
appreciation of coffee. And so sometimes when I'm
28:32
sourcing coffee, I'm, I'm definitely thinking of it from
28:35
from my perspective. So I chose to kick this company
28:41
off with that Yemen coffee because Yemen coffee had a huge
28:46
impact on me when I was good starting my coffee journey as
28:49
far as the wildness of it. Now, not everyone digs Yamini
28:55
coffee because it is super particular and super
28:58
interesting. But so that was really coming
29:01
from my head and my space. Hey, I want to do this.
29:05
This is important to me. Maybe someone else will dig it.
29:08
Now I have a, a couple canyons which I, I'm selling now that I,
29:12
I know right when I tasted them. OK, this is people are going to
29:16
dig this. So I'm going to by these coffees
29:19
now with I have a Colombian coffee that's incoming.
29:23
And again, it was a very personal move.
29:25
It's a it's a it's a solid, great cup.
29:29
But again, it's coming from a place that OK, this cup reminds
29:33
me of of of sourcing in Colombia.
29:36
And this is what I always liked about Colombian coffees as
29:38
wrapped up in this cup. Now again, it's going to be kind
29:41
of like the Yemen will will other people get that same vibe?
29:44
But I'm really sourcing coffee from a kind of a personal
29:47
perspective a lot of the time. And now when it comes to
29:50
sustainability and, and climate issues, if I'm not actually
29:56
doing the sourcing on my own, obviously I'm dependent on, OK,
29:59
who's bringing this coffee in. And, and the people I'm using
30:03
have that same ethos like Cafe imports.
30:05
I, I use for that, for that Yemen.
30:08
And, and of course they have a long history of, of being
30:10
sustainable and, and doing things at the farm level.
30:14
Of course, I've used, you know, Red fox and, and Aleko, you
30:19
know, also I, I trust what they're doing and know that they
30:22
do good work as well. So I'm kind of reliant on, on
30:25
those people. I.
30:26
Don't know if you can see it, but I I don't think you can.
30:28
But I actually have a red fox burlap sack behind me behind
30:32
this little stand here blocking the view of the closet behind
30:36
me. I saw a a article about your new
30:41
venture in Daily Coffee News that referred to you as a
30:45
legend. When you look in the mirror, do
30:48
you think to yourself, I am legend?
30:50
Chuck Patton going to work today.
30:51
Like how does that make you feel?
30:54
I try and remind my wife all the time when I get in trouble.
30:57
Hey look, I'm a legend right there in front.
31:01
I'm allowed some some mistakes every now and then.
31:05
No, of course not. But yeah, that was a pretty
31:10
nice, nice compliment. But well, I mean, I do.
31:15
There is, I mean, I guess a certain amount of ego involved.
31:18
I mean, I am proud of what we accomplished with with Bird
31:20
Rock. I think we were able to do some
31:24
things that hadn't been done in San Diego and maybe some things
31:27
that had not been done by a lot of other roasters anywhere.
31:33
There were times and and I was reflecting last night, you know,
31:36
looking forward to this interview.
31:37
And I was kind of reflecting about, you know, there were
31:40
definitely times in in when I was running Bird Rock when I
31:43
knew for a fact that we had the best say offering sheet than
31:47
anyone else in the country right now.
31:48
Not, not all the time, of course, but maybe there was a
31:51
month and a year where I know there was no way there, there
31:53
wasn't. I don't care.
31:53
Stump down. I'll just see any of those guys.
31:55
I know our coffee's better. And so there was certain amount
31:58
of ego and there was definitely amount of pride in, in, in
32:03
running that. Now, like I said earlier, as far
32:07
as, you know, calling the company Chuck's roast, part of
32:11
what I'm selling is, is the past success and expertise going as
32:17
far as legend. You know, I don't know about
32:19
that, but I, I do, I do have to kind of rely on the fact that
32:23
I've accomplished XY and Z and, and that's kind of what I'm
32:26
building on for this new venture.
32:28
Sure. Well, not for nothing, somebody
32:31
once told me that I was possibly the best restaurant manager they
32:34
ever had right before they fired me.
32:36
So you never really know if you're up.
32:38
You might be up one day and you might be down the next.
32:41
So you know, you just never really know.
32:44
You obviously have extensive roasting experience and with you
32:47
know, what you were doing at home and then Bird Rock and now
32:50
with your, with your new venture where you're kind of exploring
32:52
some really cool coffees. If if a young roaster came to
32:57
you and just asked, you know, what would you, what advice
33:00
would you give them? Said, Hey, you know, if I could
33:02
get any piece of advice from you, what would you say?
33:05
And I'm saying specifically like someone who wants to be actively
33:08
roasting the coffee. Yeah, I would say don't use
33:11
roasting software. I, I think it's a mistake to
33:13
learn and, and start out using roasting software.
33:17
And, and the reason I say that is because I think what happens
33:21
if you're learning how to roast and you're using software at the
33:24
same time, the Cropster, for example, or, or artisan or.
33:28
I think what happens is you become sucked into this graph
33:33
and these. And then at the same time you're
33:36
listening to these experts in the field.
33:39
And there are some some great people in the field talking a
33:41
lot, but a lot of the message that they that they are
33:44
presenting young roasters is you must be absolutely consistent.
33:48
You have to stick with this roast curve.
33:50
If you wait more than 6 minutes between your roast, then you
33:54
know you're not going to have the consistency.
33:56
And I think that's bullshit. I think, I think roasting the
33:59
approach, especially early on, more like cooking.
34:02
And sure, you have a recipe here, but you should be a little
34:07
bit flexible with it and maybe try some things out.
34:10
And I think going down that roast curve and the software
34:12
kind of stifles creativity in a lot of ways because you have
34:15
this, you're looking at this roast curb and say, Oh my God,
34:18
I'm almost spent 8 minutes, 15 seconds in this drying phase.
34:23
I, I got to hurry this up. And you know, well, maybe not.
34:26
Maybe the coffee's going to be better this time if you just let
34:29
it, let it go. And I think a lot of times when
34:33
I'm seeing younger roasters roast, they're not even looking
34:37
at the beans. They're not smelling the beans.
34:39
They're not taking the dryer out at all sometimes during the
34:42
roast. And I think that's a huge
34:44
mistake. Now, once you learn how to roast
34:47
in an analog fashion, when you're looking at the beans,
34:50
when you're experimenting more than I think roasting software
34:54
is, is very important. And I think it can help you not
34:57
only with consistency, but I think it can help you identify
34:59
maybe where you went wrong with a particular post.
35:02
But I do think it's a mistake to go down this software and even
35:07
this, this very rigid approach. And you know, of course, it's
35:11
science based. And of course you have my
35:13
reactions and, and of course you're dealing with moisture
35:17
evaporation and you're dealing with airflow and all that, of
35:20
course. But my point is, is that if
35:24
you're not paying attention to the actual beam, I think you're
35:27
missing out on on your potential as a roaster.
35:32
Now, we started when we were roasting.
35:34
We didn't use software from the time we opened and even before
35:39
the time we opened Birdrock all the way until we got our Loring
35:42
roaster in 2014. So we got roaster of the year.
35:44
We got all kinds of high scores on coffee review without using
35:48
any roasting software. We we kept manual logs of rate
35:52
of rise and you know, power adjustments, but that was about
35:57
it. And so I don't subscribe to the
36:00
belief that I think a lot of young roasters are, are getting
36:04
into where they have to have roasting software, they have to
36:06
have X percentage in, in, in development or have to have X
36:11
percentage of their roast in, in drying.
36:13
I think part of it is, is all about experimentation.
36:16
And, and even the other thing I would tell a young roaster is
36:20
even when you think you've dialed in a profile, OK, stick
36:22
with that profile for a month. And if you still have the
36:25
coffee, start over because maybe maybe you've learned something
36:30
in that month and, and maybe the coffee's changed a little bit.
36:32
And, and I just did this with one of our copies.
36:34
I did, I did. I was doing a roasting class and
36:39
I decided to use one a coffee that I've had one of the the
36:42
Ethiopian 1 and I decided to do 3 different with, with the
36:45
student to do 3 different completely profiles on it.
36:48
And one of the profiles I'm going to switch to going forward
36:51
because it's actually better than the profile I've been using
36:53
for for the last two months. And so I think there is also
36:55
that belief with, with young roasters that once they dial
36:58
something in, they can't change from it.
36:59
When in, in reality, like I said, it should be more of a get
37:04
your feeling, you know, get a feel for what the bean is doing.
37:07
Get it, get it loosen up a little bit, I guess is what I'm
37:10
trying to say. And I think the software and,
37:12
and again, a lot of the advice that they're getting is, is
37:15
don't be loose, you know, be rigid the exact and.
37:20
I think rigid is the word that I was was running through my head.
37:23
Rigidity, you know, it's a little bit of a get off my lawn
37:26
moment for me because I think we are have been teaching people,
37:31
younger people in particular, whether it's in careers or in
37:34
schools that this is the the path, this is the way you do
37:37
things here's resources to help you do them exactly this way,
37:41
but they never quite learn what to do if things go off the path
37:44
they. You know what?
37:46
What if the software goes? Down right like they did and I,
37:49
you know, thinking creatively or problem solving are things that
37:52
you know we've in our in our American kind of ideal of
37:58
getting things perfect or exact or excellence.
38:01
We've set a standard. This is what that is and this is
38:03
how you get there. And all of a sudden, if you
38:05
start falling off that path, I think those are the best things.
38:09
You know, This is why my wife, I do most of our cooking and she
38:12
hates it because whenever I make something she likes, she goes,
38:15
Oh, well, you can you make this again?
38:16
I'm like, well, sure, but I got no idea how I got here.
38:18
Like it's. Yeah, but you're consistently.
38:21
Good. You might have might not have a
38:23
consistent product you have consistently.
38:26
Yeah, I, I know. The same, but it but it's a
38:28
consistently good product and that was I, I remember getting a
38:31
complaint like that because we'd always change our espresso blend
38:34
because I was trying to be more seasonal and the customer said,
38:37
well, how are you going to maintain consistency when and
38:40
well, well, it's consistently good and and that's just like
38:43
how I approach roasting. I mean, it's, it's obviously
38:47
when you, when you nail a roast and especially if you get,
38:49
let's, let's say a coffee review score, you, you want them to be
38:53
exactly, you want people to experience exactly what the
38:57
coffee review score on that coffee.
38:58
So you follow that exact profile and that's a very specific
39:02
event. But, but yeah, you're, you're,
39:04
you're absolutely right. I, I, and that's kind of how I'm
39:07
trying to teach roasting. Is, is with that in mind, OK,
39:10
it's going to be analog. You're going to look at the
39:11
bean, you're going to smell the bean.
39:12
What are the differences between that?
39:14
Because I want people to roast with confidence and the ability
39:18
that they can do it without using any software.
39:23
And, and when you remove that software pod, then part of it,
39:26
then they kind of get more creative and then they're
39:28
looser. And I think the coffee will
39:29
benefit from it in the long run. I have no plans of ever being a
39:33
roaster myself, but I'm feeling very inspired right now.
39:35
Chuck. What comes next for Chuck's
39:39
roast? For next for you as a
39:40
consultant? You know what?
39:41
Do you see the the future path being for you?
39:45
Well, I think like I said, you're getting building the
39:48
brand, making it a sustainable brand.
39:52
And like I said, I mean there will come a day that Chris will
39:57
say, hey, but I'm trying to move out.
39:59
And so I was kind of thinking about that.
40:02
What I really would like to do is have the training be a bigger
40:06
part of the business and to have a a space where I can do that on
40:10
a more regular basis. And what I'm, what I'm kind of
40:13
toying with is to have a space that I could offer a little bit
40:17
of retail in the morning. I never want to get back in the
40:20
espresso game, but I in, in theory it would be with, have
40:23
you heard of the ground control units?
40:24
You know, those Brewers? So we hosted their, one of their
40:29
first prototypes at, at Little Italy.
40:30
And so we worked with those guys before that came to market.
40:34
And I was always fascinated with it and I thought it was a such a
40:37
great tool. And I think I really believe the
40:40
way Eli and that and that group have designed it that you can
40:44
run, you can run a, a coffee retail location without an
40:49
espresso machine and just use that.
40:52
And that's what I want to do. If, if, if, if I ever found a
40:55
really small location to have a little bit of retail, but just
40:58
use the ground control. So just offering brewed coffee.
41:01
And it also brews a concentrate. And so you can't, you have a
41:04
little bit more flexibility, flexibility there than than say
41:07
a Curtis Brewer. And to offer really perfectly
41:10
brewed coffee and as a way to sell coffee beans, you know, in
41:14
the morning and then run some classes and and consulting in
41:16
the afternoon, that would be that would be ideal.
41:20
So yeah, I guess that would be the long range plan of Chuck's
41:23
roast. I, I don't know if you got this
41:26
message I sent kind of late, but something new that we've been
41:28
doing on the show is just asking people about the things that are
41:31
important to them and if they have any sort of charitable or
41:33
nonprofit efforts that they care about or that they support.
41:36
And if so, we want to share it on the show.
41:38
You know, I, I haven't really thought about that, but I, I
41:42
have always had a soft spot for grounds for health And, and we
41:46
aren't, you know, to the point where we, we can do a lot of
41:49
charitable work right now or Chuck's Broast isn't, I can say
41:51
I'm not to the point, but that was a company or an organization
41:56
that we always love to support and, and hopefully we'll get to,
41:59
to support that again as we grow a little bit.
42:01
We'll definitely share that in our podcast show notes and
42:03
everywhere that the show comes out, when you're out exploring,
42:08
maybe not an origin show, maybe you're just running up the coast
42:11
somewhere and you pop into a new place, what are you going to
42:13
order? I always just order brewed
42:17
coffee and, and I think you can tell a lot about us, the place
42:20
and, and how they present that to you and, and you get a feel
42:24
for how they're roasting or, or how their roaster is roasting.
42:30
I very rarely get an espresso or curtato or, or strata.
42:34
I always gravitate towards, OK, how's the brewed coffee?
42:37
And so that's 99% of the time. That's that's what I.
42:40
Do did I miss anything today that you wanted to share?
42:48
No, I think, I think, I think, I think we're good.
42:50
I want to thank you so much for giving the opportunity to come
42:52
on here and and talk a little bit.
42:54
Hey, I'm the one talking to a legend, Sir, and it's been a
42:59
pleasure. I appreciate you being here.
43:01
To everyone else listening, you'll find all the links that
43:03
we chatted about in today's episode, including the one to
43:06
Chuck Chuck roastcoffee.com. That's also the Instagram at
43:09
Chuck Roast Coffee. Yeah.
43:10
And that that's kind of a mouthful Chuck's
43:12
roastcoffee.com. But it's actually, so we have a
43:14
a workaround of that is Chucks Dash roast.com.
43:17
That's a little easier and it it links to that thing.
43:20
We'll make sure people can find it.
43:21
It's in our show notes. It's in our newsletter.
43:24
This show is part of our Roast West Coast Coffee Network and
43:27
can be found on all the favorite podcast platforms.
43:30
Apple and Spotify. Just search for coffee people.
43:33
And shout out to our presenting sponsor, Rostar Incorporated.
43:35
We appreciate their efforts and their coffee packaging company
43:39
helping small businesses tell their big story.
43:42
That's all for today. Anything to anything to say?
43:45
No, I think, I think we're all good.
43:47
Thank you so much, Ryan all. Right, We're out for listening
43:49
to the stories of coffee people. Tip your baristas and be sure to
43:52
drink your coffee. That's it.
43:59
Yeah, You're welcome. Just call in and say hello.
44:06
You're more than welcome here. Certainly appreciate that.
44:10
I already hit the, the recording thing and I, I saw your e-mail
44:15
and I mean, we talked about so much stuff last time.
44:18
I didn't want to run out of time, but you in addition to
44:22
like making good coffee, you teach people and I was hoping
44:25
you. Excuse me.
44:28
That was the thing I was thinking about after I talk to
44:31
you because we were talking a lot about feasibility of just
44:34
offering a couple awesome coffees rather than a line of 10
44:37
coffees. Those are awesome.
44:40
And it is maybe a A. On the surface, it may seem like
44:45
a difficult thing to pencil out, but the other part of this
44:50
business is, is the education part.
44:52
And that's really what got me kind of back into coffee was the
44:55
hope, you know, to teach people about coffee, to continue on
44:58
with the, the coffee cuppings that I did at Bird Rock Coffee,
45:02
to do that again, to teach people how to roast coffee.
45:05
And then business consulting. That's a big kind of a, a big
45:09
part of the, of the business. And Chuck's roast is really the,
45:12
the coffee line. But patent coffee consulting is,
45:15
is the education part of it. And that's really kind of what I
45:18
wanted to say. I guess how important that part
45:22
is to me because I've been a teacher for so long.
45:24
I, I, I think this would be a great opportunity to continue to
45:27
teach and do it in a way that would kind of help people grow
45:31
as, as coffee people, either on the roasting side or on the
45:35
business side or as the employee side, or even the hobbyists too.
45:38
I mean, a lot of people who come in to, to, to the cuppings are
45:43
usually just people that want to learn about coffee.
45:45
They're just, they like coffee and they want to learn more
45:46
about it. Whereas the, the coffee roasting
45:49
classes are usually, maybe sometimes it's, it's been a home
45:51
roaster and other times it's been someone who's just starting
45:55
a coffee business. And so that's a a great
45:58
opportunity. I saw a photo of a recent class
46:02
that you were offering at the shop there.
46:06
I know you have, you've all this experience and obviously you
46:08
teach on the, you know, in your other life, but do you get, did
46:12
you get nervous kind of getting back into it where you're
46:15
telling people your coffee information and going, Hey, I,
46:18
I, I know this, I've done it, but I'm doing it again for the
46:21
first time. That was a great question.
46:23
I forgot, you know, because I kind of had a stick because for
46:27
from basically 2007 to 2016, every Friday I would host
46:31
cuppings for the general public at, at at the original Bird Rock
46:34
location. And so I, I, I different coffees
46:38
every week, but the same kind of stick as far as how coffees are
46:41
processed, how coffees are grown.
46:43
And I think it was one of the first times I did a cupping
46:45
after not doing it in, in public for so many years.
46:48
I forgot how to explain the wash process and I was stumbling over
46:54
and I had totally just like I couldn't, I couldn't explain to
47:00
the guests properly what washed process coffee is.
47:03
And that's really the most basic thing you should know if you're
47:06
if you're going to do a coffee cupping.
47:08
So yeah, definitely had had some stumbles early on and it but it
47:11
was just it then it's just kind of like muscle memory.
47:14
Once you get going it, it's pretty easy again.
47:17
Is that not a not, I never taught people how to to roast
47:21
coffee before. So that's a a brand new Lesson
47:23
plan. And what we're trying to do or
47:25
what I'm trying to do is not teach roasting on a home
47:28
roaster, but to do it on the decent.
47:30
So they actually have some experience roasting coffee on an
47:36
actual commercial roaster. And the customer for that then
47:40
just to clarify, maybe somebody who's already tried a little bit
47:43
of home roasting on a 1 LB roaster or something, you know,
47:46
small roaster they're looking to see, can I take the next step?
47:49
That's the person. Absolutely right.
47:51
And that's pretty much everyone who's taking the class before.
47:53
And I have one person who's been in the business for a while just
47:57
needs to refine kind of what they're doing.
48:00
And I gave him some tips over the phone and, and he's going to
48:02
come down and, and take a lesson and, and we're kind of work on
48:05
some refining with his style of roast.
48:08
But as far as approaching those roasting classes, as I was
48:12
talking about earlier, I don't think young rosters should rely
48:17
on software. And when I teach a roasting
48:20
class, it's all, it's all analog and they're, I'm having them
48:25
really write down temperature tracking and they're not relying
48:28
on the software basically at all until they do a couple rows.
48:32
And then I can kind of teach them how software works and how
48:34
software can help you with consistency and stuff.
48:36
But, but I do think it's crucial, as I was saying
48:38
earlier, when you're teaching someone or when someone's just
48:41
starting out to kind of do it the analog way at first.
48:44
So that means I. Have to ask about.
48:47
No that's OK, I have to ask then.
48:50
There was an article that I saw recently, this is over over the
48:54
pond, where a roaster developed an entire profile and roast
49:00
using only chat GPTAI prompts, didn't tell the anyone that's
49:07
where it came from and put it out as one of their own coffees
49:10
next to their other coffees. I bet it, I bet it was great.
49:14
What do you say? What?
49:16
What do you say? They're saying that it's one of
49:19
their most popular coffees at this point, that they went
49:22
through the process. How?
49:24
How do we move into this new world where we can do that?
49:28
Well, well, well, well, wait a minute.
49:30
Now a couple things now, now chat GT is a little different
49:33
because it's kind of going back to, you know, that methodology
49:36
of how people I'm sure it's science based method.
49:38
You know what happens the chemical reactions when you
49:40
should do it. But my point is, is that what
49:43
you actually said in the last in the last and our last chat was
49:48
the rigidity of how people are supposed to roast down.
49:50
And that's a great demonstration of you can maybe do it a
49:53
different way and still come up with a different result, you
49:56
know, and be open and be open to new things and and mistakes
49:59
even. And that could lead to some some
50:01
great coffee. So I'm sorry, what was the
50:03
second part of your question? Not no ro, just curious about
50:05
your your feeling about it. You know you're talking about
50:08
analog and writing things down on a piece of paper that's.
50:11
The idea? Yeah, for our younger audience,
50:14
paper is like this thing that comes from like, trees that get
50:16
cut up and mashed and then they dry it and you can use charcoal
50:19
to write on it. It's cool.
50:21
I'll look into it. But I, you know, it's just a
50:25
totally different, you know, model.
50:26
There's going to be a generation a few years from now coming out
50:29
that that's how they'll get started.
50:31
That's how they'll learn the basics.
50:33
And so. Yeah, I.
50:34
I do, and, and I'll go back to the cooking analogy too.
50:36
I mean, you, you can, you have a recipe for anything you're going
50:39
to cook. And it's just about, I think
50:41
what we, what we're kind of losing is that feel is that kind
50:47
of sensory feel that just just trusting your intuition and when
50:51
you, when you're kind of feeling, OK, I think I should
50:54
make an adjustment here. I mean, that's OK to do that.
50:56
It doesn't have to wait for a sign and a signal to tell you to
50:58
do it. Once you've roasted several
51:02
coffees, it's just like cooking a dish for a while.
51:05
You know, the, the temperature might be different.
51:08
So that's so whatever protein you're cooking might, you know,
51:12
work differently or might something might be different.
51:13
Just be open to that and go with it.
51:15
And what do you feel about it? Trying to get people to that
51:18
state where they're not, where they're kind of, I guess what it
51:21
is, is getting getting to the point where you're confident
51:23
enough to trust how you're feeling about a roast and not
51:27
depending on what something is telling you to do in a
51:29
particular time. Sure.
51:32
Anything else that we missed when we talked last time?
51:36
Well, I, I think the other one little thing I wanted to bring
51:38
up was, you know, as far as the coffees, I do have a couple
51:42
coffees I'm kind of excited about right now.
51:44
We have a, a couple from Kenya, one called a key Kenya Key,
51:48
which is the middle name, and then another one, Rune Ghetto.
51:51
And they're very, very different Kenyan coffees.
51:54
Coffee review just gave the key at 94 and that'll probably be be
51:59
published next week. But the key is kind of real
52:01
peachy. It's one of my favorite canyons
52:04
of all time. It has it's just a little bit
52:06
more delicate than a traditional Canyon, but the rune ghetto is
52:10
more of a traditional Canyon. It's really heavy bodied, dense,
52:13
thick black currant and and the key is more, you know, Peach
52:18
kind of tropical. So there it's kind of a nice
52:20
pairing. I'm kind of happy with those two
52:22
Kenya's that I'm offering right now.
52:23
And we have a wonderful Columbia coming in next week that I'm
52:26
really excited about. And then later in the month we
52:28
have a or late, late, early next month we have a Washington
52:32
coffee. I watched Geisha from Peru
52:36
that's coming in that should be outstanding.
52:37
So those are the things I'm kind of excited about as far as our
52:39
offering sheet at. The moment we'll make sure that
52:41
we share those with everyone. I brewed a coffee in an
52:45
automated machine at the car dealership this morning, and I
52:48
bet every one of those is going to be a lot better than the one
52:52
that I dumped in the grass outside the car dealership.
52:56
Did you buy a new car? I did not, no.
53:00
But I am deciding whether or not I'm going to spend a bunch of
53:03
money to do all the things that they want me to do in the
53:05
service department. So that's always fun.
53:09
Chuck well, thanks for popping back in.
53:11
I'm glad we were able to clarify that with people and make sure
53:15
that we send. The.