Latest / Forget The Noise / 18. Jambalaya | Featuring Brad Poulos
Transcript
- speaker-0: They say motivation something you want. Discipline is something you need. Obsession is something you have to have. I'm gonna show you what I wanted, how I got it, and how I was obsessed to get there. All right, another episode of Forget the Noise podcast. We have Brad Poulos here today from Chicken Farms working to working at a university, but there's no stone left unturned in between. I looked at his bio, I think I got everything. I apologize to him ahead of the episode. So we got Candid First satellite internet company. We have a freelance jeweler, zero to number eight on the profit 100 list, taking a company public. Multi-title author, as you guys can see on the table. Grandfather, he smashes keys in a band, sales as a hobby, practices taekwondo, hates cucumbers, and keeps it all balanced with Zen Buddhism. So I don't know what we're gonna touch on today. I prepped an episode. I feel like this is gonna be one of those episodes where it's gonna go in left field real quick. We align on a lot in life, business, where we're at. So I'm gonna let Brad take the floor, give everyone A five minute intro, two minute intro, thirty seconds speaker-1: Well, why don't I start at the beginning? Yeah with the chicken farm. So my I come from a family of entrepreneurs. My grandfather came from Greece. He he's Greek, so he had a restaurant. What else do you do, right? And my dad, ⁓ my dad owned a motel in Niagara Falls, and it was out in the country, so kind of out on Lundy's Lane. And we had ⁓ 17 acres. So at age 14, I got this great idea to start a chicken farm. So I built I built speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: chicken coop. My dad's very handy. He kind of taught me. Yeah. You know, probably not quite as handy as you, but ⁓ but so I built ⁓ at 14 I built the chicken coop and went around and went and got some hens and got one rooster and for several months I was selling eggs to the local to the neighbors basically. Yeah. And then in one afternoon my German shepherd put me out of business. So I decided to retire from ⁓ farming and carried on with my studies. But I was lucky enough that in high school I was part of this organization called Junior Achievement. And ⁓ it's not really it's kind of a shadow of its former self now, but at the time it was a great organization and it taught young people about business. So we actually started a company in September and ⁓ operated it, capitalized it. We had to sell shares for a dollar a piece. the c the company at and you can only sell one share to any if any given person. So we had to go around and get the money to start the company, come up with a product, sell it, ⁓ then liquidate the company, write an annual report, and give ⁓ whatever you could give back to the shareholders. So in in our case, it was all in all five years that I was in high school, because I went to grade thirteen, ⁓ we returned more than the dollar. So they got their entire investment back plus a dividend. So that really, that really I I was totally bitten by the business bug by then. speaker-0: So you got little preview before you went public with the company, which we're gonna get into a little bit later, but for sure like foreplay in there, right? ⁓ speaker-1: Abs absolutely. So I I yeah, I mean I was a I was very entrepreneurial as a youngster and then I did have a fifteen year corporate career, but for the almost the entire time I just couldn't wait to get out and do something on my own. So speaker-0: That's cool, yeah. No, I find a lot of people Have that itch once they're in there. It's like, which we'll get into again later on. but they all have that itch where it's kind of like once they have that itch, it just it doesn't go away. Even as an entrepreneur, I find myself, like, I'm always like, okay, but I could build something else. Like I can, like I was telling you with like my construction company piggybacking into the business solution company, I'm like, well, this is kind of linear. Like I've used experience in one to build out experience in another one, right? So it's kind of done with that. speaker-1: I've also figured out that ⁓ it took a long time to actually get to the root of it, but I figured out I don't really like having a bus. And so that was I think that was a big part of it. And ⁓ you know, so I d ⁓ how how it really came home was when I was running the public company, yeah, I had four thousand shareholders. And the the previous CEO had kind of created a culture where they not all of them of course, but many of them thought that they could just call any time and talk. And I realized I don't really want your input. And then when I looked back on prior to s having the publicly traded company, we s we had sold our company to into that company and then I I became the CEO of the company that bought us. And I had had two partners, my brother and another individual. And for many years, I was the only one of the three of us that worked in the firm. They were on the board, they were my co-shareholders, but they didn't work in the company. And I realized looking back, I didn't even really like having their input. I'm very much of a lone wolf. And so being an entrepreneur, ⁓ you know, is kind of made for me. And also being a professor, because the dirty little secret of university be working at a as a university prof is you don't really have a boss. Not in the conventional sense. speaker-0: So we're gonna get into that because I want to learn about that after. and see, and that's surprising because now with my next ventures, I'm actually looking at partnerships. I'm actually looking like how can we utilize our resources with other entrepreneurs to build something up? And you're giving me the I didn't like having partners, and I'm like just experiencing the idea because I've never had a partner. Well, I have my wife as a partner in the company, but that's like a paper thing, right? speaker-1: It's actually not that. So I don't mind having partners. So when my brother, for example, my brother later jumped into the company and we worked together for several years and grew it before we sold it. Okay. I liked that. I don't like having bosses. speaker-0: ⁓ the bosses aspect of it. Yeah. Because like I'm actually thinking of a business venture with like T Bone here where because he has a media part of it, I'm doing the podcast and we find there's so many people that want a space for like branding or like photo shoots or you know, talking heads or even their own podcast. I'm like, why don't we get a little thousand square foot space and open a studio? You can do all the audio and video, I can build it out, and then we'll just split on the revenue that way. Like you what I So my next ventures I'm actually looking for partnerships. Like that's speaker-1: make perfect sense because they they basically expand your capabilities. Yeah. You're you're not gonna go and partner with somebody who has the exact same skill set that you do. Exactly. But you're gonna find somebody with complementary skills and together, you know, hopefully the the whole is greater than the sum of the two parts. speaker-0: Exactly. I like that. The hole's bit greater than the sum of the two parts. ⁓ I'm starting to find a lot of like co hosts, ⁓ I'm like can people just completely outsmart me on the podcast. To leave the world better than I found it, what's better to you? 'Cause that was one of your goals. That's not true, right? speaker-1: lot of lot of ways that you can slice right so one is ⁓ t try to be helpful whenever you can. Yeah. So and that that just that permeates through my entire life. So I I get a lot of opportunity to do that because I teach at the university and I also mentor in a couple of the incubators there. ⁓ that's cool. So at at T ⁓ U we actually have ten incubators. So wow. Yeah. We have the world famous DMZ, which last year or the year before was literally awarded the got the award for the the top university based incubator on the planet. And then it it kind of it was the genesis of nine others that are more sector specific. Yeah. Sector or capability. So speaker-0: Like, what an incubator is for everyone listening. speaker-1: So an incubator is just it's it's a space, but it's also a program where young companies go for mentorship, for support, that sort of thing. And they may be ⁓ like really right, you know, just having just been created, depending on the incubator, or they might be a little further along. In the case of the DMZ, you sort of have to have some traction before you get in there. But the idea is to sort of accelerate your your progress by providing mentors in various different areas and support in lots of different ways, sometimes even money. A lot of accelerators w ⁓ we call ours incubators. We don't take a piece, but a lot of accelerators actually give you some money and then take a portion of your yeah of your your company as a result, right? So so we have the science discovery zone where I've done mentored several companies. ⁓ the design fabrication zone and then we have sector specific stuff like the biomedical zone. There's a legal One, ⁓ fashion, that sort of thing. So I've I've mentored in several of those, and that's all work that you do for free. So that's one of the ways that I like to, you know, make the world better. ⁓ and then volunteering as well. I think it's important that for everybody to, at least when you get to a certain point in your life, to give back. speaker-0: And that's one of those ⁓ things where I find people don't realize you just feel like you have to do. I I I I'm at that point where it's like I was sorry, I'm pe I'm beyond the compete, I'm in the collaborate, I want to get back, I'm part of like while I'm trying to help out with the small business enterprise here in town. Nice. I'm part of D bot, like definitive trade. I just got on the board of directors there. I'm in a multiple mastermind groups where I try to like some of them might even pay to be in and I mentor people in there. I'm paying to mentor someone. Like you know what I I also pay for friends. I know it sounds horrible, but in a mastermind group when you're paying to play, like the connection are just different. You know, people there are serious, right? Yeah. But there is just like the entrepreneurship itch, there is a give back itch with a certain level in life. And I'm fortunate enough that I have that. And there's no like direct ROI, but like You can't explain the ROI on that. Like, I I don't know how to explain it. Just it just feels good. I'm actually just had one of the small business enterprise kids in my office yesterday, and he's like, I just don't know how to do this. I'm okay, let's get on the phone, just cold call now. Like that's your next step. Let's just do it. Like it's gonna suck. You're gonna get a bunch of no's, but like, let's just do it. And I think he felt more confident with me beside him doing it. But like then he landed like two clients out of them. I'm like, this is awesome. Like, you what I mean? This is great kind of thing, and you do get that itch. speaker-1: I think the ROI is internal. speaker-0: It is, yeah, but you can't explain it. Like you I don't know how to explain what it is. People like, you know, you volunteer, what do you get out of it? I'm like, you feel good? Like I I don't know how to put it in words, just it feels like something you have to do. Like speaker-1: I think it's the natural order of things. If if the world has been good to you exactly you owe it to the world to be good back. speaker-0: Exactly. Your cup can only be so full until it overflows. So let it overflow. Right. Kind of thing, right? Out of your resume though though, what do you think has resonated the closest with the w leave the world a better place? Like is there something out of my take away the like volunteer, just like work wise, like running a company, making a paycheck for other people, like creating a lifestyle for people or teaching? Yeah. speaker-1: Doesn't matter. It has to be teaching. Yeah. So I I keep track. ⁓ a couple of years ago I went back and I I dug dug out all the records 'cause I've been teaching since two thousand and nine. And I dug out I dug out all the records to figure out how many sections, which is essentially a class, have I taught, but more importantly, how many students have I touched? And the number's over seven thousand five hundred now. So when it comes to giving back to the world, although I get paid, yeah I'm you know, I'm paid decently to do that work. no question that in terms of leaving a dent in the world, that's that's probably the you know, b much bigger than any of the other jobs that I've had. speaker-0: That's cool. Yeah. And I actually haven't had anyone move into the teaching sector that I know directly from entrepreneurship. I've had people move into the mentorship, but actually like teaching students. I feel like mentorship they're already foot's already in the door. Kit like, you know, it's a student, they're so young and moldable. Like it it's gotta be a cool mindset to kind of work with and see where they're at, what You you know what they're gonna r in I guess entail or face as they like move into those different stages of life. But it's like an entrepreneur that walks in the door, like that kid there, he's like, I already had someone not pay me. I'm like, Well that's a lesson you're gonna learn. But these kids that you're teaching being a professor for, they don't know that yet. You know what I mean? Yeah. speaker-1: It's it's really satisfying too seeing some of them go out and, you know, just kill it in the world. I know it's cool, right? Yeah. speaker-0: And it's like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, I forgot about them. Yeah, that's crazy. Right. you talked a lot about luck. So wild success can be explainable by skills and labor. Wild success is attributable to variance. And you said hard work helps too, but most importantly, you can't underestimate the importance of luck. Yeah. My question is, since you consult and teach at the university, you have a 25-year-old. They're grinding, they eat shit over and over, day in, day out. Like at what point if they're not progressing and they're not getting the luck, like what point did they give up? speaker-1: Well it depends on the individual. And ⁓ one of my philosophies around failure is you can really only be a failure if you stop. You gotta keep going, right? Now it doesn't mean you keep going with what you're doing. speaker-0: Okay, so that's a better way to put it. So like say he's j they're just not moving forward and you said luck has something to do with it. At what point should they turn around and just say, I just I've done the work, I've put in the effort, done everything I can do, luck's just working against me, when do I pivot? speaker-1: And it may not be luck. It might be that you've just chosen a bad idea. Right? And it's really important it's really important to live it live live ⁓ to listen to that evidence and to then pivot. Like, you know, you you you took a term right out of the lean startup nomenclature, right? So you gotta know when to pivot. In fact, so I I have like a kind of a complicated view around failure. So first of all, that notion that you can only really be a failure if you stop. Because fa failure's a post facto term, right? It's looking backwards. So if you're still moving forward, how in the heck could you possibly be a failure? It's only when you stop. Yeah. But there's another ⁓ I think there's a nuance to that that's really important, which is that you gotta listen to the evidence. And if you so my my new definition of failure, it's not really a definition, but I when I'm talking to my students, I call it my definition of failure. Yeah. You wake up in the morning. You finally figure out that you've been doing the wrong stuff, meaning you're working on the wrong idea, or your idea's just not good, or it's not gaining traction in the marketplace or whatever, and you just keep going. That's failure to me, right? Yeah. You gotta know, you gotta know when to fold them, move on to something else, try some try another idea, that sort of thing. I'm a firm believer in evidence. And there's a great book called ⁓ have you ever have you read the book Good to Great? speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: So you might remember from there the Stockdale paradox, which is the idea that you have to accept the bitter reality of where you are, right? Yeah. And it's only a fool that doesn't do that. So you accept the bitter reality of where you are and you figure out something else to do. But if you keep moving forward, you're not a failure. You're just in the process of succeeding. speaker-0: See, and when I read that, I kinda took it the wrong way because like my hand my brand is whole like belief over everything. Like I'm like we were just talking, you're like, someone told you no. And I'm like, yeah, someone told me no. Like that that was it. Kind of so like I'm very like, shut up and work harder. I know it's not the best mentality, it's not the best motto. I've talked about extensively about how it's probably not the best thing for anyone, right? But that's the way I'm wired. I know I've learned myself, like you were saying, like you just can realize like a bad situation. I I know I'm a bad situation. I I'm just a horrible like pot of like bad ingredients. It's like shut up and work harder. If I believe it, I'm gonna do it. It's tell me no one, I'm gonna prove you wrong. It's like speaker-1: My back has to be against the wall. speaker-0: Back has to be against the wall for pressure. Like, yeah, if my company's doing well, I'm like, I'm gonna put us in a bad position because I know I'm gonna excel out of it because if I'm just coasting, nothing gets done. Like I'm just that person. So I that's my belief. And then I heard you on your onboarding forum say luck, and I was like, I've never had luck. I just I do everything the hard way. Like Yeah. speaker-1: degree you make your luck. So one of again, I've got lots of stock sayings that I've been I've honed over my 17 years of teaching entrepreneurship, right? And one of them is there's no luck on your parents' basement couch. Get off your ass and do something. If you're not sure what to do, do anything. Because anything is better than nothing. Right? So you make your luck. But my but what my point when I when I ⁓ filled out your onboarding form and when I said that to you, what I really was driving at is that. So let's Take let's take millionaires, okay? Yeah. There's not a lot of stupid millionaires. But what's the so so ⁓ you know being smart can get you to be a millionaire. But to get to be a billionaire, being smart's not enough. You gotta have some luck too. And I think the really the best ones, they acknowledge that. They acknowledge the the the ⁓ the part that luck has played in their life. And yes they worked hard, and yes they were smart and yes they were cunning and all of those things, but they also had a little bit of luck along the way. And I had a boss back in in my corporate days. and he had a saying, and I didn't really understand it back then when he used it. It I I had to get older before I really got it, but ⁓ you're probably wiser than me, so you'll get it right away. And the term and the saying was, you know, Brad, I'd rather be lucky than good. speaker-0: I get that. I I I I completely get that. Like because yeah, because I find like if you're lucky you can you you have a stepping stone. Right. If you're good, you gotta work hard for it. You gotta create that luck. See I find like with me speaker-1: Well imagine you only get to have one. You can either be lucky or good. But if you're good with no luck, that can that can be a an awful lonely place. speaker-0: It it is. And like that's what resonated me with me with when I heard the luck thing, whereas like I haven't had luck. And I started thinking about I'm like, I did a lot of stuff in my business, not like for my business rather than during business. I don't know how to explain that. Like I made opportunities of like not working on the tools to go to networking events, which ended up l landing me like a flagship project. But I The choice I made by working harder and saying, you know what, I'm gonna go do this at 6 p.m. Because no one else is going out at 6 p.m., I'm gonna go in six p.m. My hard-headed mentality where it's like, I'm just gonna work an extra hour longer than everyone else. Right. It created luck to be at that event to land that starship, the flagship project. So it's like you almost create luck by pushing forward. Like you don't have to have just your luck. And I think with luck, people have this like, well, it's just good luck. Mommy and daddy had money, or they won the lottery. I'm like, No, you can create luck. You can create your environment and create circumstances based on your efforts every single day. speaker-1: I'd I'd I'd consider the being born with a silver spoon in your mouth more good fortune. Luck? That's perfect dialect there. So the o you created the opportunity by going to the networking event and whatever, but you've also spent your entire at least working life or or your whole life getting prepared. Yeah. Right? So it's the two things together, that's what creates luck. Yeah. Having a millionaire daddy, that's just good fortune. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And like even when I started my company in twenty nineteen, like COVID hit it right after that. And like renovations went crazy. So I got lucky in the timeline. But I know a lot of guys struggling right now out of COVID where they're like, I just don't have the work. And I'm like, we're good. And we have employees and we open an office and we have staff. And I'm sitting here on a I don't know. I said the wrong day last time, Tuesday afternoon, like shooting a podcast for a hobby. Like that I'm paying for. Like, you what I mean? It's one of those like, so I'm like. Well, it's the work I did during COVID that's now paying off now. So sure I was lucky COVID hit, but I played my cards right during that time to set myself up for five years down the road, right? speaker-1: Yeah, I would have to wonder what did those competitors do during call. speaker-0: Buy boats and two hundred thousand dollar trucks and you know, all that stuff and yeah and speaker-1: Enjoy their time off. Like they were setting the stage for when things opened back up and were ready to fly when that happened. speaker-0: Yeah, and I like don't get wrong, I was stupid some days too, where I'd be like in the home office and my always like, What are you doing tonight? I'm like, I'm pulling all nighter. She's like, Doing what? And I'm like, I'll find something to do for the business. And she's like, just to say you pulled an all-nighter? I'm like, pretty much. But like it built that resilience. And actually, I did something that night, right? Kind of thing. This one I want you to explain. Don't believe your own headline. speaker-1: So I'm not sure where that came from. speaker-0: I read it somewhere on the onboarding form. speaker-1: I don't remember writing that. So don't believe your own headline. To me, what that what that means is, you know, basically keep your head out of the clouds. Right? So don't ⁓ I I'm a firm believer in humility in business. I think it goes a long way. speaker-0: That's where I read it. Yeah. And I I I was going through it and I have like a section of humility. And that was a quote I saw in the humility section in my little notebook there. Yeah, because I have that and I have the first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. So that's kinda yeah. That falls into the humility thing. Yeah. So like where do you stand with the whole humility thing? Like, because business is hard. Business is cutthroat some days. Where do you draw the line and what have you learnt over the years? speaker-1: I it's like everything else I think in business, it's a it's a balancing act. So it's pretty hard to do really, really well in business if you don't have a fair bit of confidence. So you've got this underlying confidence. But humility is more about a way to act. I mean, yes, you know that you're good at some point, but but You don't have to act like Donald Trump to be a success in business, right? And people, I think people are more they they gravitate more to people that are s a little bit more humble. And in fact, going back to that book we were just talking about a minute ago, ⁓ the level five leader that they talk about in good to great is a combination of ⁓ an intense amount of personal will, which you have. Yeah. You've demonstrated that I think, ⁓ combined with humility. Yeah. So letting the team take the accolades. It's not really all about me. Now, underlying that of course is usually a fair bit of confidence because it's backed up with a fair bit of competence. So it's ⁓ but humility I think is more about how you present yourself to the world than really what what you feel inside. Of course, inside you know you're pretty good. Yeah. yeah, you just th it's obvious because of where you've gotten to in life. But you don't have to be you don't have to be sh showing that off all the time. speaker-0: I find a higher percentage of people I meet personally have more humility with the more seasoned they are. I think that comes with a sense of maturity, age, experience. Very few young, it doesn't matter if it's a student, doesn't matter if it's an employee, doesn't matter if it's a business owner. I find as people get older, I see more humility in them rather than a younger generation. I hate to say full of piss and vinegar, but I find the younger generation does have a little bit of this competitive full of piss and vinegar, but I also step back and say, is this, you know, the youngest child syndrome or the middle child syndrome where it's kinda like they feel like they have to kick and scream because they're just getting their foot in the door. speaker-1: It's I think it's partly that it also might be ⁓ the fact that today the heroes that people see on social media on it's primarily social media nowadays, like who actually watches Tolkien? Right. ⁓ they're not great role role models. speaker-0: This whole manosphere thing, like it bugs me. Like this like ego Yeah, and I'm like, I can't fucking do this anymore. Like I I just I'm so over it, it's like I get it. speaker-1: That's exactly what I was going at. And tell me tell me how like let's let's pick the classic example, okay, Andrew Tate. How has he been successful other than as a as a moderate success as a mixed martial artist? Yeah. What other success has he got to point to? speaker-0: He resonates with someone on a bad day and they go viral. That's honestly that's where I feel like it is. No. Or someone just down on confidence that needs, you know Right. speaker-1: Absolutely not a role model. speaker-0: just something to push them to make them feel like they're bigger than someone. It's like a school bully. That's ultimately what it is. They pick on someone that they know they can bully. It's like that same kind of mentality brought into there, right? And like that manosphere kind of whole culture. I'm like, I just I don't have the I don't have the time for it, I don't have the effort for it. I think it's horrible on like speaker-1: I'm hopeful that it'll be a blip on a timeline. speaker-0: I think it's starting to phase itself out, like you know what I mean? But I was actually just listening to a bunch of videos, I got into a wormhole there about this like I guess negativity around like self-improvement now. And I'm like, it's an actual thing, and there's so many articles on it saying like morning routines and you know, like cold plunges or like personal health and like spending time at the gym rather than spending time with your friends is wrong. And I'm like, ⁓ my God. I'm like, why are we going this way now? Like You know, I don't know if it's because it's gone so extreme in the personal development phase like I guess perhaps sector and category has been so big everyone's starting to like shit on it. I hate to say that, right? But I feel like the Manosphere thing is the same way. Like so many people jumped on the bandwagon, now it's kind of hoping it's starting to phase out. Or maybe I just don't give it the time of day, so it's not as big a to me, but maybe it is still a big thing. I'm not sure. But like I just I completely agree with you on that. The Andrew Tate thing or humility where You don't have to act like Donald Trump to be successful. Because, like, I have torn opinions on Donald Trump. Like, you put him like as a president, like you look at the numbers and everything. I'm like, he's not a bad president. Is he a douche? Yeah, 100%. Like, do I like the guy personally? Would I have dinner with him? No. But like, remember the whole, like, what was it, the Mexican wall? And he's like, I'm gonna build a wall. And then he vote voted, got voted in as president, starts to build a wall. Everyone's like, ⁓ he's building a wall. And I'm like, Well, we always complain politicians don't do what they say, and now he's doing what he says. I'm like Guys gotta pick your battles here, right? So I don't know. speaker-1: Yeah, I I I tried to I try to stay away from the whole left-right thing, right? And I just look simply look at every single issue ⁓ on its own merits. Yeah. And one of the things that I to me I fundamentally believe that if you're going to have a country, by definition, it must have a border. Yeah. And the border must function. Yeah. It's very important for that border to function. So I yeah, I think that that whole that stuff gets blown out of the water. Now the other thing. thing is and I d I'm sure we don't want to get too far into politics, but the the way that they choose to go and round up illegal immigrants is not really the way I would go about that. speaker-0: Yeah, and the thing is like it hits more news and it's actual stat. I think I read it. It was like two hundred and ninety-four thousand under the Barack administration and Donald Trump was only like a hundred and ninety-six thousand or something like that. But he's actually rounded up less illegal immigrants, but he's done it in a more dramatic way. You know what I mean? Where it's like at the border, it's like I'll separate parents and kids. If you're coming across the border, like both of you guys are gone. Like kind of thing. Like so it's a little more harsh way to do it and less human speaker-1: I think one of the reasons for that is that because Donald Trump signaled so much that he was going to have strong borders, there are fewer illegal immigrants coming in. Yeah. So therefore Barack Obama had a be a better opportunity to deport them because there were simply more of speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. ⁓ yeah, and I agree with your thing on the politics. I find I can't talk to many people about politics because like I look at it as two different perspectives. Like if I talk to someone that works like a nine to five, my political, I guess, benefit of who I vote in is gonna be different because I'm a business owner versus someone who works in nine to five or in, you know, the private or public sector or something like that, their vote is gonna lean towards what's best for them. And my vote's gonna by find I just can't if mine is different, it doesn't matter which way, if I'm left and they're right or I'm right, they're left, we have this like divide where it's like it's wrong to be on the other side. I'm like, why? Like vote your way. I don't care. Like whatever works out best for you. When I go growth store, I don't tell you what name brand to pick of crook cookies. Pick your chips ahoy and I'll get my Oreos. Like who cares? Like that that's what works best for you. You like Chips Ahoy? Like pick them, right? speaker-1: So Yeah, there's also a reason why why they often say that you know you shouldn't really d spend too much time discussing politics or religion. And it's because you're probably not going to change the other person's mind. So speaker-0: I would love for someone to change my mind. And that's part of this podcast. Is like I want someone to give me their opinion where I'm like, Okay, yeah, no, I I can I can get behind that. Like Because that's part of the reason I had the podcast, is it learn stuff, change my mind. Like I want to be open-minded. I think there's too much in the world where people are closed-minded, where like I wanna be that change where like if you can change my mind, change it. But like there's gotta be some grounds on it. Not just, hey, this, you're you're d you know, you're thinking wrong. And I'm like, well, why am I thinking wrong and why is it better for me to think a different way? kind of thing, right? speaker-1: I also think it's good to have a willingness to hear the other side, to listen to it, even if you're not going to change your mind, to really understand what the other person's perspective is. I think it just like I have a I have one friend who we're very, very different politically. Yeah. But we get into these deep political discussions and they never get personal. Yeah. Because we both really just seek to understand why the other person believes what they do. And probably we both have pulled the other one. you know, in our direction a little bit on one issue or another. speaker-0: And that's the thing. People look at it as a whole, like, you know, let's use red and blue, right? People look at it as very red and blue. And I'm like, well, no, let's talk about the topic. I really think when I talk politics, we can't talk about the topic. We have to say, well, it's party A, party B. And I'm like, No, I I just think W do you notice there's no center left or center right anymore? There's either right or left. Do you remember when there used to be a center right and left? Yeah. That was a thing back then. Right. So all the kids listening. You didn't have to go left or right. You can go in the middle. That was a that was like a huge thing before. A lot of people sat there, but speaker-1: Well, in fact, for for most of my adult lifetime, we had center left liberals, center right, the progressive conservatives. Yeah. And they were called progressive conservatives at the time. And ⁓ then when they got in, they would govern it from the middle. Right. And they they really like very probably very few young people watching this podcast would know this. That ⁓ we ran up massive deficits in the 80s under the conservatives. Yeah. We voted in the liberals, and they got rid of the Deficits. Now that that's not what you would think, right? You would think that that would be the other way around. But because because they all kind of governed from the middle back then, and you know, there's there's there's a global situation as well. Like part of the reason we had deficits was because of g interest rates and the it's the situation we found ourselves in. So it's not it's not all the conservatives' fault that we had these but it happened under them and then the situation changed and it was ⁓ you know, Paul Martin and Jean Cretchen who got rid of our deficits and they're they're liberals. So it's just prove speaker-0: It was conservative. speaker-1: That they used to govern from the middle, and it's become much more polarized now, ⁓ unfortunately, I think. You know, it's no it's to our detriment. speaker-0: Yeah, it is. And it I think it's just a spiraling factor where I believe the pendulum goes either way. So I I I think it's gonna go way the other way eventually. I don't know if it's gonna be with the next generation or two generation, but I think it will go that way. So speaker-1: Are you familiar with the concept of entropy? No, dude. So it's ⁓ it's a it's a concept in physics, but I think it applies to society. So in physics, ⁓ things naturally move to disorder. They they naturally become more chaotic, not the other way around. And and I think society is the same way. So I think we're headed for more chaos before less, unfortunately. No. speaker-0: So you don't think we're at the top end yet? speaker-1: I really don't, unfortunately. That's it's a cool concept. For people. speaker-0: What was it called? Entropy. Entropy. ⁓ I gotta write that down. Actually, I have video footage of it. Now you can go back to it. subscribe to it. It was actually really good. You be follow flawlessly efficient at the wrong things and call it a good week. I love that. I love because I see so many people like that because we were just talking on the last pod. No, two three podcasts ago, busy is a badge of honor. I'm like, no. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. I love that. No it's not. speaker-0: When I read that, I'm like, I don't know if because I'm in that season, I'm around so many people where they're resonating with that, where they're like, ⁓ so busy Tim, like, what'd you do? Well And I'm like, Why you why are pausing? Like, you know what I I'm like, you're busy, but you didn't do anything. Like I I feel like I have so many people in my life at that point where I'm like speaker-1: Like the I think the killer question i there is, ⁓ really, what did you accomplish today? Yeah. Right? What did you check off the list? speaker-0: Where did the needle move? Right, yeah. Hundred percent. so not everyone read your whole podcast or podcast, read your whole newsletter, but in a nutshell, like explain your whole thought process on speaker-1: on th the the issue that came out today. So what you're talking about there. Yeah, so ⁓ there's a difference difference between efficiency and effectiveness, right? So efficiency is doing something quickly, ⁓ with minimal resources, whatever. Effectiveness is doing the right stuff. And I think too many too many entrepreneurs, small business owners especially, you know, they're running around trying to be as efficient as possible, but not necessarily effective, not necessarily working on the right things. And you know, part of it is there's this cliche that comes from this book called the EMyth. And I'm sure you've heard it. Working on the business, not in the business, right? Yeah. It's the owner's job to f as you did, you mentioned to me earlier how you got off tools fairly quickly after starting your company. That's that's so important because if you're on tools, there's no way you can work on the business. You're too busy worrying about whether or not is this wall plum or you know, the well, how does the grout look on this tile job, right? So you can't you can't be working on the business which is developing ⁓ you know essentially finding new customers figuring out new products and services to sell opening new geographic or other forms of markets all of those kind of things right speaker-0: Yeah, and I find a big thing is cash. They have no problem going for lunch every day. They have no problem buying that fancy tool. But I'm like, sometimes we spend money on the business, like hiring an administrator. It's like I know there's not an immediate return on your investment on that, but I'm like, you're buying back your time. Like you're literally buying back your time. Right. You're and on top of that, like my client experience is ten tenfold over everyone else because I have someone that don't only does communication. I pay my wife to do all the design for white club service. I have a project manager out there that's face fronting to the to the client day to day. I'm the salesman, I'm the big problem solver. If I walk on the job, you know something went down and I'm here to fix and you're gonna get a good answer because that's the only place my head is in kind of thing. And I'm like spending money on all those people is like it's getting us more jobs because their experience is better. And like people are like, I can't pay someone $25 an hour just to answer emails. I'm like, ⁓ my God, I'm gonna they don't just answer emails. Like they don't. speaker-1: Well the other the other way to look at it is, okay, so wait a minute. You can get rid of the job of answering emails by paying someone $25 an hour. Is your time not worth a lot more than $25 an hour? So the people I think that are afraid of that are the ones that don't know what to do with the time that's been freed up. speaker-0: Yeah, I know. speaker-1: They don't know how to get to that next level. They're not sure what they should be doing. Where I think for you it's a little more innate. I think it's a little more in intuitive. You you just get it. speaker-0: Yeah, and I wanted my time back. That's why I started a business. That's why I that was my goal, right? And now I'm at the phase where it's like, I want to be that person that pulls out the best in people. Like when I'm working with a client with consulting, coaching stuff, I'm finding, and I'm sure you can see it in your students, right? Where you're like, I see your good trait. What's it called? ⁓ I think it's called the Michelangelo effect. And It might be Michelangelo effect for like spouses and loved ones, but it's a same concept where someone sees the best trades in you and they work to pull them out. It doesn't matter if it brings them downfall or heartache. ⁓ speaker-1: The way Michelangelo saw the sculpture inside. ⁓ speaker-0: The stone, yeah. Before so it's like they see the best in it and they want to pull it out of you. Right. Even if it takes them like, you know, pain and hardship and hours and you know chipping away granite and stuff like that. It's like I see that in people. I'm like, just please let me work with you. Like let me help you. Like I'm like screaming at the mountaintop, like it's so easy. And a lot of it's just the obvious. It's just people are scared to do that. speaker-1: You you just hit it. It's fear. It's one fear fear is one of the greatest motivators, but it's also one of the greatest ⁓ it's demotivation isn't really the right word, but obstacles. Yeah. One of those things that gets in the way. speaker-0: I know and then like Setback, so many on people. ⁓ the hardest lesson to teach an ambitious person is that teaching the summit doesn't automatically mean you'll like the view. So we're gonna jump into I guess you walking away from the company. I am in a season of unteachable lessons. I don't know if because I've gone through so many headaches and problems and stuff. speaker-1: I I can speaker-0: But I'm finding no one wants to listen. And I'm like, I'm starting to really research this. And I'm like, people need to just go through stuff before they understand it. And I find it's with hardship, but I I'm finding so much more now it's with success. Like, I want to get to this point. And when they get to that point, it's like, you're not gonna be happy there. And it's like, well, no, that's what I want. That's what, that's what I want. I want to have a publicly traded company. I want to sell my company, make millions of dollars. I'm like, but is that gonna make you happy? They're like, well, it must. And I'm like, speaker-1: You the two speaker-0: It won't though. Like you know that and but I can't teach someone that without them going through it. And I'm realizing there's so much in life people actually need to go through before they actually understand it. And I'm like speaker-1: There's a reason why older people are wise. speaker-0: I know, but why don't we listen like why don't we listen to the person that's ten years ahead of us? Like why don't speaker-1: Maybe the smart ones do, but I sure didn't. So speaker-0: Yeah, so your experience on that, like you got to the top of the summit. You literally accomplished what ninety percent of people I know are trying to accomplish. And you're like, Right, I wasn't happy. speaker-1: Yeah, so first of all, happiness has to come from the journey. You cannot you you've gotta be you've gotta find a way to be happy in the moment, right? So and happiness is a choice too. Now, ⁓ look, if your grandmother died this morning, you're you're not happy today. I get it. But but those things aside, in general, happiness is just a decision that you make about your about your life. ⁓ So so that but but I wanna but to to the the whole careful what you wish for because you might get it thing, right? Yeah. So when I was Yeah. So when I was thirty five years old I was doing my MBA. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ speaker-1: And we took I took a course in organizational behavior, and as a as a part of that, the prof gave us these very detailed ⁓ personality studies. And so I learned a few things about myself. And he he to his great credit, he sat down with every one of the 50 students in his class and he gave us about 20 minutes or so, and we went through the results and he helped us to interpret them. And in as part of that process, ⁓ he asked me like, what's your overarching goal for ⁓ like business-wise, right? And I said, so I was 35. And I said, well, by the time I'm 45, I would like to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And he literally said to me, Brad, do you not think you should set a more realistic goal? I'm like, wow. You just lit a fire under my ass. I know. Right. Come back in. That's it. Yeah, that's it, right? So fast forward 10 years. Five days before my forty fifth birthday, I sold my company to a publicly traded company. I became president and CEO of that company. Five days before. Five days before. I would have called speaker-0: Called speaker-1: It but it was not on the Fortune five hundred. However, I went like check. And so there's a lesson there, which is good enough is often good enough. Right? So it wasn't the Fortune five hundred. Look how look how far I moved the yardsticks between that conversation and that day five days before my forty fifth birthday, right? So there's there's one lesson. But the other thing is, I hated it. Once I got there, I didn't like it. Like I said earlier, I don't like having bosses. And I didn't realize that about myself. So I had this very lofty goal, probably primarily driven by ego. By, you know, to be the big honcho and have the, you know, have the office and have the nice car and have the have the card that says CEO on it. Yeah. and then when I got there, I realized I don't really like this because a CEO's job primarily is to deal with the street, right? Wall Street. That's that's your job. And I realized I hate investors. I don't like dealing with investors at all. I love dealing with customers, employees, suppliers, ⁓ even the local government. I loved all that. But I did not like dealing with the investment community, and that was my number one job. And so ⁓ you know, like I say, be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. speaker-0: So going through that experience, because you had life experience, right? Do you think there's a way to teach an unteachable lesson? Like is there a way because I'm actually In my personal life, I'm trying to crack this code. I'm actually trying to like talk to people and say, like, I have a handful of people in my network that have gone through this. Like, don't waste your time. Like, I've learned what I've what I've learned. And like now I'm at the point I went through the shiny object syndrome. I went and bought the nice watch. You know, I went and spent money on stupid shit. Like, I've done that. And now I'm at the point where it's like, me and my wife are talking. I'm like, as we scale up and grow, we're gonna do stuff like I was actually talking to one podcast guest, and they have a house manager, shows up three times a week. House is clean, organized, appointments made, schedules made, grocery shopping's done, stuff. I'm like, we're gonna invest in a house major. We're gonna get a meal service so we don't have to spend our time cooking, and we can spend our time together doing other stuff. Like, I'm looking at things that are gonna buy back my time, right? People are like, well, and I'm just was talking to this kid, and he's like, I can't wait. I was just talking to someone else about I want to buy my dream car after a year in business. And I'm like, shiny object syndrome. I'm like, do not do that. That's stupid. And it's like, I'm like, I almost have to let him buy the stupid car to learn you don't want the stupid car. And I'm like, everyone at a higher level that's like past where I'm at, I'm like, is there a way we can teach people the unteachable lesson? Like I just don't I can't I can't crack it. I don't know how to do it. speaker-1: I think the only way is through stories, but it doesn't mean it's gonna work. Some people will listen. And if stories are by far and away the best way to convey those kind of ideas. But it doesn't mean that a hundred percent of the people that hear the story are going to internalize it, are gonna learn from it. And you know, you could try to teach, but that doesn't mean anybody's going to learn. ⁓ but some will. Yeah. And so you will have you'll you'll make a positive impact on the world by by doing that. But I I really think I think stories is the way. Right. And ⁓ you have to accept that your hit rate is gonna be way less than percent. Think about us as humans. And it's probably a sign, you know, having like I said earlier, you know, it's a combination of competence, confidence and ⁓ humility. But that confidence that we have will will probably push us toward thinking, yeah I know that happened to AJ, but that's not gonna happen to me. Alright, I'll be smarter, I'll be better, I'll be faster, I'll be whatever. So that's not gonna ⁓ that one won't hinder me. speaker-0: I it just it ri I don't know why it's bugging me lately. The past few months I'm like why? I don't know because I'm getting deeper into like mentoring and deeper into like working with clients as like coaching, consulting and stuff, but I'm like Maybe it's just something we just everyone says the same thing. They're like they just gotta speaker-1: I think I think to some degree you have to let that go. speaker-0: I'm I'm trying to learn the unteachable lesson. Like you know what I Everyone's told me you just can't teach it and I'm like, I'm gonna learn how to teach it. That's the definition. Yeah, I know. But speaker-1: It doesn't mean don't try. Right? So but there's a few things I can say to that. So one is ⁓ we have a saying in the entrepreneurship department and it it it it kind of applies here, it's a little bit different, but ⁓ you can't care more about their education than they do. So you can't care more about the other person's life than they do. Right? You've got you've gotta let them be the driver of of all of that and all you can do is like try to have try to make ⁓ you know try to make the best to try to do your best to get the the lessons across. ⁓ but Yeah. But the other thing, and like you mentioned earlier, I practice Zen, right? Which is mostly about meditation for me. But ⁓ there are a handful of principles as well that that permeate through all forms of Buddhism and Zen, I think particularly for this this one. And it's the notion of equanimity. It's the it's the this idea of It's sort it's kinda like the serenity prayer. You know? The the ⁓ the cur how does the serenity prayer go? The the ⁓ my gosh. I can't even remember how it goes, but it's about you know the wisdom to accept the things that I cannot change. speaker-0: Look up the Serenity there. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Right, just like ⁓ Joe Rogan does. Right. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah exactly, yeah. That's exactly it. ⁓ When I stepped back and looked at like everything you've done, again I found a quote and it says, He who can who can does, he who cannot teaches. We've done both. speaker-1: ⁓ So scrap I don't believe in that quote. Right, exactly. We had a we had a funny take on that when I was in tech school and that was he who can does, he who can't teach, and he who can't teach becomes the dean. Okay, I like that one. But you've got the serenity prayer? speaker-0: So you burnt it, yeah. Yep, so it says, God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. I yeah. Yeah. Bang on. We have a new responsibility to remodel. We're gonna start utilizing you, man. speaker-1: So you're you're Yeah, so anyway, I don't believe in that, ⁓ I don't believe that adage. It's it's cute. Those who can do, those who can't teach. But I I think on and you know I I bet I bet the colleges especially, but even to some degree the universities, are kind of full of people who can't do. But the thing is in our in our department especially, ⁓ business generally, but our department especially, we're full of practitioners. I would say there's six or seven of us that have been a CEO of a public. speaker-0: Do you find it's starting to change now? Because I found when I was looking at universities and stuff, like even friends, but it's like hiring an overweight personal trainer, right? Or hiring a mechanic who, you know, rides a bike. Like I don't know what it is, but it's like I need if someone's gonna show me something, especially something so important like entrepreneurship, you gotta go through it. speaker-1: Totally great. speaker-0: I want those unteachable lessons. Like you know what I mean? It's kind of like that, and I feel like there's more of that now. Like, even getting into like the consulting coaching space, like that's why I'm working so hard to build my resume. That's why I'm getting up before fifteen, because everyone I took ten coaches and, you know, influencers and public ideally my ultimate goal is to be a public speaker. Okay. Motivator, you know I guess, mentor, whatever it is. And I took like ten, fifteen of them. I'm like, I researched them all and said they all wake up at this time. The average time was like four thirty in the morning, I'm like, well, I'm behind them, so I gotta get up fifteen minutes earlier. I know it sounds like the weirdest like calculation, but I'm like, I'm not there yet, so I need that extra fifteen minutes a day, and I may start doing that. Yeah. And I started saying that standard with myself and then you know I'm like they all wrote a book so I'm gonna write a book and you know they all have a podcast, I'm gonna start a podcast, they all have multiple businesses, I'm gonna have two business like building that resume so when I get to that point, I'm like, I have that credibility like you do with the entrepreneur space, teaching entrepreneurship. I'm like, I think that in itself is so much value. Like it's sure ultimate golden basket of value and like knowledge. It's like speaker-1: You can't and you're gonna forge your own unique path. You know, you're not gonna be exactly like any of those individuals, but for sure, copying the strategies that others have used in the past is a is a great you know, it's a great thing to do and I would I would say also to the audience that, you know, you don't have to get up at four fifteen. I applaud you for that. That's really that's you know, extremely early. But being a morning person absolutely pays off. So I I've been the other way around. And I switched fifteen years ago probably, maybe twenty, ⁓ from being a a night owl to a a morning person, right? I go to bed d disgustingly early. But I I u I'm usually up around five or five thirty with no alarm clock. Right? But why? Because I went to bed early. And, you know, the time that I didn't spend watching T V or watching YouTube or whatever in the evening is is unimportant. And the time that I get back I usually I usually use it for ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: either an important the the at the time that I have before work starts. Yeah. ⁓ I use it either for reading or for working on a project of my own that ⁓ you know that's really important to me that isn't either client work or doesn't have to do with teaching or or that kind of thing. And I'm a firm believer in yeah, get up early and and get stuff done before everybody else is even in the office if you're you know that kind of if you're in that kind of a world. speaker-0: And my four fifteen came from I believe y you do have to walk the path of others you want to be like. Now, maybe you won't step in every stone they stepped on, but you should walk the path. And I feel like I don't know if it's a chip off my block, but like I have no school behind me. I have no like paper that gives me credibility and I'm like Out of respect for the industry I want get into, I just have to give a little more effort. I had to go through a little more pain just to get there because I'm like, I don't have a doctorate, I don't have an MBA, I don't have Barely even have a high school diploma. Like you what I mean? So it's like I have to really build up these businesses. I really have to show up every single day at 415 and prove I can do it. Will I do it forever? Maybe not. But like if I do it consistently for a thousand days, like Andy Priscilla says it, show me your last thousand days and I'll show you who you are. Right? Yeah. If I do that for a thousand days straight, it's like, okay, he's a real deal. Because to do it for a thousand days straight, it's like it's it's not an easy feat. Like, you know what I mean? So it's like one of those, like, okay, if I can do that, at least I build some sort of recognition. it's like, okay, he walks a walk, he talks a talk kind of thing, right? speaker-1: I I can drive that home too. I my my former business partner of of like we we're together for like twenty years running a handful of businesses. He's Korean and he told me about a Korean saying and I I'm I'm gonna butcher it. I'm barely gonna be able to paraphrase it. I certainly won't be able to quote it. But it but it's something along the lines of there is no man, there is no poor man, no no man who gets up at five AM will have a f poor family. Something like that. Yeah. Right? It's almost impossible. Right? So speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. It's true, but I think that just sets a standard, right? Like I think it just sets me apart from people because like when I walk in the door now, like even when I go into like a business meeting and have a networking event or something like that, like people are like, Hey, how's it going? Like, how's it going? I'm waking up four fifteen every and I'm like, Good like, how do you do it? Like I was just talking to T Bone boys. I'm like he's like, You're wired different. I'm like, Don't don't take away from my work I'm putting in. Like I'm not wired different. I'm just I just do what I say I'm gonna do and then coming into like doing business now with someone, they're like, okay, if he does that and he says he's gonna do it, I know he's gonna do it. Right. It just again builds that right unfortunately I need to do a little bit more because I don't have that credibility of a doctorate or MBA or some or like you know some diploma behind me. Just it's part of the process. It's paying your cheers. speaker-1: That this is But that discipline that you're building, ⁓ 'cause you are you know, you're s you're you it's a muscle, right? And you're you're strengthening strength strengthening that every day. That's gonna permeate your whole life. That'll permeate your your home life with your wife, right? And your kids if you have any and and your personal relationships and your hobbies and your business and speaker-0: It's funny you say that because I my son on a few weeks ago to actually like talk about like what he's learned watching me and the stuff I thought I was teaching him. He wasn't even learning. He was learning stuff I didn't even expect him to see. Like he was like throughout the summer, like I'll get up at like nine and like you're off to work already and you've already like I post a sauna talk every day on social media. So I'm in a sauna and I'm like and he's like I already see your sauna talk, I already see you did your workout, I already see you did ten things at the office, I already see you on field and he goes, I'm just waking up, like I'd get my ass in gear and I'm like, That's what you're learning from me? Not like all the like knowledge I'm trying to give you about running a business and like making a career. Like you're not picking up any of that. speaker-1: It's the meta stuff. ⁓ speaker-0: Exactly, like it's crazy to think that, so it's cool. Kate, I don't know how you're gonna feel with this one. Can we get into a dicey question? So like I feel like there's more to entrepreneurship than book smart. I'm I I'm a strong believer that a lot of the stuff that you learn in school with entrepreneurship, like there's a lot of shit like we were talking about, you're learn speaker-1: There's no daisy question. speaker-0: like being in the field and actually doing it. Do you think entrepreneurship in school, I know you're a professor, do you think there's a waste of money there for certain people and certain students? And it's just an expensive permission slip to run a business? Because I feel like coming out of that you're gonna get two people. Either people that are like, Okay, I got the basics, I got the foundation, I know there's gonna be more to learn, I have an open like mind to it and I'm willing to take in speaker-1: I can learn. speaker-0: with real life experiences then there's other people where it's like well I went to school for it so I'm gonna start a business and it has to be successful and there's that entitlement to it. Like people that come out of like school with like a literature art degree and they're like well I don't have a three hundred thousand dollar job like literature arts no care like I'm not trying to downplay the degree but you I mean though like sure there comes some sort of entitlement with it speaker-1: Imagine that. ⁓ there's lots we can unpack there for sure. Okay, so first of all, ⁓ although I I teach university entrepreneurship, I do not consider myself to be an academic. Okay, I'm a practitioner. Right? A practitioner who works in an academic environment. Yeah. ⁓ we're one of the l less academic disciplines. We're much more applied and practical ⁓ entrepreneurship than say you know, philosophy. speaker-0: I like I never thought about that. Yeah, okay, yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ I consider half of all university degrees to be bloody useless and I would not pay for my child to go get one of them. I w out of respect to the people who have them, I won't name them. but you can you can you can email me if you want the list. speaker-0: No, there there is stuff where like I'm now at that age where I have friends and their kids are speaker-1: Studies. What are you gonna do with that other than teach Caribbean studies? And that's a that's a that's a continuously downward spiral, right? Yeah so because there's not gonna be enough jobs. If we if we graduate thirty Caribbean studies grads, there's not gonna be thirty jobs teaching that at the university level, right? So speaker-0: So we're on the same level, that's yeah, you know the speaker-1: Yeah. So now but but back to entrepreneurship specifically. So I w a bunch of things I want to say. The first one, ⁓ are a couple of I'm thinking back to I stay in touch with probably maybe about a hundred of the seven thousand five hundred students that I've touched over the years. And a couple of the more successful ones didn't finish the program. They were too busy being entrepreneurs to come back for the fourth year. Okay. So there's that. I don't think for a second that you need an entrepreneurship degree to go out and be an entrepreneur. I think if you're bent that way and you've graduated from grade twelve, I do suggest you get your grade twelve. Gret, right? Get get I don't mean to make so so I suggest you get your grade twelve because because it's just it's it partly it's a symbol that you can finish something. go be an entrepreneur. Right? Don't don't spend what forty thousand dollars and four years of your life going and getting a degree. speaker-0: Yeah, but just jump. Kingsborn University soon. ⁓ speaker-1: It's about 10k a year, I think, roughly. I'm not even sure. that's not my my work in that part of the uni. So I so I think ⁓ I think you should just go do it. If you if you're already wired that way and you're nineteen, eighteen, nineteen years old, yeah, just go try it for sh for sure. ⁓ a lot of the students in our program actually are sent there by their so about maybe around a a quarter or a third of them have been sent there by their family. ⁓ And and they're gonna go back into a family business. So what they're trying to do is trying to kind of up their you know the the professionalism ⁓ in within their family biz. So I think that's a perfectly valid reason to take an entrepreneurship entrepreneurship program. ⁓ some of the some students are just not really sure what to do, and it sounds cool, and so they'll you know they'll take that program. And a lot of them end up going and getting jobs before they ever start their own business. But but in general, the the concept of teaching entrepreneurs. speaker-0: thought about that. speaker-1: So one is we so we don't teach about entrepreneurship. We make them do entrepreneurship. So we are we're the guide on the side. We're not the sage on the stage. We're not up there professing about entrepreneurship and telling them how things are and how they aren't. So that's much as coaching them. So in ⁓ in our capstone course, which I taught for the last three years, ⁓ so capstone is a fourth year course. In our case, it's a year long, so it's two semesters. You go from September to April and you're stuck with me, right? We make them do two big things. One, you have to start a business of your own. speaker-0: My speaker-1: So by the time you graduate, you've started a business. And the second thing that they have to do is in a group of six people, they have to go into an established business, not a startup, one that's been around for a while. They have to go and get it themselves. We don't provide them with the companies. They have to go sell themselves as fourth year students. And they go in and they do two things. So in the fall, they do a scan of the company, you know, they do deep interviews and really try to understand the company, but then also the expertise. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: External environment, so the industry and and other things about the you know the economy and all that. And then around Christmas time, they make a bunch of recommendations for things that they can implement in the second half. So so between basically between January and April. So by the time they've left, they've both done their own entrepreneurial project. he some of them are pretty modest, but some of them are not. So like they they're big enough that the student speaker-0: You're a plant breakup. ⁓ speaker-1: Or wanna be on their board. and then they've they've done these things inside ⁓ entrepreneurial things inside a larger company where they don't have to worry about the resources. The company has the money, they have you know that's that's the capstone, that's the final entrepreneurship course in your fourth year in our program. And I think it sets us apart. I I did some research. I I researched the top entrepreneurship schools, you know, Babson, Kellogg, ⁓ ⁓ a couple of the Canadian ones as well. Nobody else does that. speaker-0: That is see again, that's my ignorance. That's part of the reason I'm having this podcast because like from outsider I see like university, it's like entrepreneurship course. Like, what can they teach them without actually doing it? But then I talk to you and I'm like, the thing. Like this is actually kind of really cool what they're doing. Because I think especially that like getting into an existing business and finding problems, like even if you start your own business and you're an entrepreneur, like you get to a certain point where like speaker-1: We do it. speaker-0: You can run a zero to five hundred thousand dollar business. And I think at that point you need to step back and say, okay, where are the problems to get us to a million? And unfortunately there might be times where you're at a three million dollar business and you're like, I can't run a five million dollar business, so I need to bring someone in because the problems I see aren't problems I can fix. So having them inside an existing business and assessing an existing business gives them a whole different like world of like insight, which I think is like that's a really speaker-1: Yeah. See that wasn't dicey at all. There was no diceiness to that. I know, but it's But you thought I would be you thought I might be slightly insulted perhaps by the question. But absolutely, I think it's a valid question. Yeah. I think parents should absolutely ask that question about the whatever program that they're paying to send their kids away to. speaker-0: I know. Yeah, because I'm so ignorant of what entrepreneurship is because I was like, you know, live and learn. That's all it is. Like maybe I bought, you know, like a few entrepreneurship books, but it was what was like speaker-1: me, entrepreneurship is a process. So because it's a process, you can teach it. speaker-0: What I like about the program is like they're learning about not only starting the business, it's finding problems in the business. Now you're finding solutions to a problem. It's like I think that's actually really cool. I really like that part of the thing. Now with the students in your program. I find there's two types of entrepreneurs, ones that create a job for themselves and ones that build something. How good are you at just like walking into rooms like boom A B A B A B? Like because I find some of them don't realize they I you know, I have some friends that actually don't even want to build something. They're happy just creating a job for themselves. Sure. And they're that's where they're content, which is okay. speaker-1: Right. I'm not that great at picking off the students, but I will tell you, so I I spend my when I'm not teaching, I spend my time doing two things really. I'm building a digital business for small businesses that ⁓ essentially a a bunch of tools to help them r reduce the chaos. But I also have clients as well. Yeah. And ⁓ they fall into the A B category. Yeah. So you've got the builders, yeah. Right, the the ones that wanna the ones that wanna get off the tools. Get out of the way. they're trying to build the company and then the ones that I call it you don't actually have a business you just own your job now own so let's let's put let's pretend you weren't the way you are and that you're you're touching everything around here and you know you're you're on every job site and you're still you're still carrying a tool belt and and all that. Right? I would say, you know, you don't really have a business because you can't really go to Barbados and sit on the beach and you know cha-ching cha change cha change. So so you own your job. Now, but it's important to understand, owning your job is better than having a job. It's definitely better, but you don't want to own your job. You want to own a business. Yeah. And so and that that's the distinction, right? And so ⁓ I call it the eight million dollar pro problem. It's actually it's in the book. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. And we're gonna have links to all the books, everything. I didn't even steal those two copies. I need new book to read. speaker-1: So ⁓ those yeah, those are yours. So ⁓ the eight million dollar problem is it's something I I observed back when I I had a business where we we basically sold a lot of products that were ⁓ sourced from the United States, the t in the telecom industry. Okay. small business suppliers. They're in the kind of you know five to ten million dollar range and the owner still made every single d decision. And so my brother and I coined that. It's the eight million dollar problem. If you if you're okay being at eight million, you can still make every decision. But if you want to get above that, you've got to be able to let go. And there's a bunch of implications for that, right? So it means you have to create a management structure underneath you you. You have to empower those people. They have to be, they have to be, you know, they have to have the authority to make real decisions. You have to accept that they're going to make decisions that are different from the ones that you're going to make. They might not even be as good, and who cares? Not every single decision has to be the one. you would have made and not every single decision has to be as good as the one you would have made. Not everything in life has to be optimized. speaker-0: Ten or ten problems at 80% that you don't have to deal with is better than a hundred percent of one problem you have to deal with. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like yeah, so I I I get that. And I'm at that phase right now where it's kinda like I'm allowing people to make decisions and be surprised, it doesn't fall apart. Like literally it and the world doesn't end. speaker-1: And the way Even if it's different than what you would have done. Yeah. Right? Or not even if the real one is where it's not as good of a decision. Like difference fine, but not as good. So what? Not everything has to be optimized in life. And if you want to quote, optimize every decision, there's a huge cost to you of doing that. Which means now you're touching everything. And you no longer have this time that you pr that you cherish to work on your business. So there's a concept, probably a new word for you: satisfacing. speaker-0: Satisfaction. speaker-1: Satisficing. It basically means you don't optimize the thing. You just simply choose the first good option. The first option that's good enough. The example I use with my students is so usually I'm wearing like a button-down type shirt, you know, like not a dress shirt, but like a you know, a printed shirt, you're right. Button-down. And I say, you know, like I didn't optimize this shirt. I knew what pants I was wearing this morning. I went along Closet, I went, ⁓ that works. And I grabbed the first one that's good enough, right? I satisfied the decision. I could have optimized it, I could have spent more time and gone. Gee, what's the absolute best shirt out of my collection that I could wear with these particular pair of pants? Yeah. But you don't bother with that. You just take the first one that does the job. And most things in business satisficing is okay. And and the the last point is the real trick is knowing which ones are which. Which decisions had do have to be optimized. speaker-0: Subconsciously, humans do that anyway, though, because they have a priority list. And it's one of those, like, you know, you I'm trying to use an example. Like you go into the grocery store and it's like, do I want cheese crackers or regular crackers? Who cares? Just grab one. Like you're you're you're you're already subconsciously doing that, but where are those decisions on your priority list? We just need to learn to bring that in. And I really like that. That's a good thing for business owners to know. It's like speaker-1: What's the good result? Consciously. Yeah. Right? And so because it's actually the flip of that that matters more, which is which are the decisions that I can't satisfy. A great example is hiring. You optimize that decision, right? You you spend the time to make sure that you get the right people. speaker-0: I've kind of geared away from that. I know it sounds horrible. Like give me your opinion. Hire fast, fire fast. That's where I'm at. I feel like my industry, again, there's so much Yeah. And I'm probab and I'm talking about trades, labor, stuff like that. I'm like, Right. We just did a a speaker-1: Are you talking about the trades? But what about your sales manager? speaker-0: No, that I agree with. Yes. I think yeah, you're you're right. Yeah, I think because I'm looking for I'm looking for field staff right now. So like yeah, I think I'm in that. I mean it's been more time on a sales manager, project manager. Yeah, you're right. speaker-1: trades. You're gonna spend more time on that one, right? Yeah. Or even anybody in leadership position because they or Ford Friday they determine your Yeah, so touching the customer for sure. Or ⁓ a leadership position because that has a huge impact on the culture. Yes. That you're and you want people that are going to basically you know be an extension of the culture that you want to create in your customer. speaker-0: when we leave the office and you look on the board it's literally says culture eats structure for breakfast. It literally it's on my whiteboard right now. I tell everyone that. I'm like we build the culture and the structure will fall into place. If everyone wants to be here in a good spot, the the structure will fall into place because everyone will want to follow the process. Everyone will want to do the job for the next person behind them. speaker-1: Do you have your values ⁓ enumer enumerated? Have you written down your corporate speaker-0: We got yeah, so we got our mission statement, our core values. It's all in a binder in there. speaker-1: I'll tell you a funny st it's not a funny story, but you might find it interesting. So we we were up around ⁓ probably around fifty people at this point in time. And we decided to to do what you've already done, which is write them down, right? We had them, but ⁓ they hadn't been enumerated. We hadn't actually articulated them. So the the every company has values. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: You you can go observe them and then you could write them down, right? But the val the values can be observed just by how decisions get made. So I ⁓ I spent a weekend and I I looked around on the internet favorite concepts is you know I never had a good idea I didn't copy from somebody else. So I copied lots of lots of them lots of ideas from other companies and but I but I found the ones that resonated with me and I ran them by my two partners and we settled in on these values. And so then I said to our we had a like a communications coordinator person and I said ⁓ do me a favor. We had offices, ⁓ six offices in Canada. We had I think seven in South America and six in Mexico. So we had like, yeah, we're quite a few offices, right? Yeah. And I said, do me a favor. Not not counting the bathrooms, how many rooms do we have in this company? Go find that out, right? So he had to go and like how many okay, how many offices, conference rooms, and and count the lobby as a room. Right? So he came back with the number. I'm like, great. Now make up a nice graphic with these values and I want X number. I forgot the number now. speaker-0: Big room. speaker-1: One for each room in the company. And he's like, Why? And I said, Because I want to be able to say to people, don't ask me, look at those. Yeah. Right? I want it to be at like I want it to be really, really permeate our whole company, that the c like the culture of our company is that that we really believe those things. ⁓ and so one of the ways to do that is for the them to always be in view. And it's I know some people probably think it's a little bit extreme, but extreme sometimes works, you know. speaker-0: It does and I I'm guilty for not implementing them as much. Everyone knows where they are. We've had team meetings about them, but I should post them. I I should I'm guilty for it. speaker-1: Yeah. If you've got a small enough number, get a monk with them. Right? But yeah, find find interesting ways to yeah. So that so that they're more present. speaker-0: That's actually not a bad idea. I do like that. Because one thing I'm trying to implement now and I think slowly trying to do it is finding solutions before problems. So I'm gonna have a thing where my field staff, I'm like, if you come to me with a problem, I want two solutions with it. You can't come to me with two solutions. Yeah. Either A, you shouldn't be doing that job, right? Or B you don't belong. I need people with a brain, I want people that feel like they have an input. And that's I'm I'm slowly trying to implement that right now. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the segue because this book here, Most Problems Solve Themselves. So the book is not about Most Problems Solve Themselves. The book is actually fifty-two articles. ⁓ I needed to put I needed a title for this book. And so I picked one of the more provocative article titles to put on the front. And what most problems solve themselves is about is about just that. It's about pushing it back on the employee. and s like yeah, the bring me speaker-0: Agree. You do this job every day, you run into this problem. You should probably have the best solution. So I am gonna trust that. If it's really that bad of a solution, I'll kibosh it, but you've made the effort to do that. But at the of the day, when it comes to like pay raises and stuff, and I sit down with them and I'm an advocate for if you're making us more money or doing more responsibility, I'll pay you more. If you're doing less or the same, I'm not gonna pay you more kind of thing. And I'm like, now we can sit down six months and say, Hey, you know, like you know, one, two, three. We've gone through 50 problems and you've come to me with a solution and you've solved 48 of them. Yes, I believe you should be paid more, and I'm gonna give you more responsibility with that. Because you've shown initiative, you've shown some. I I I just want to embrace people and lift people up, but I've got to create an environment where I'm giving them the opportunity they can do that. I'm always closing doors on them and saying, you come to work, you only do this, and you only do that. Well, they can never grow as a person. speaker-1: But yeah. Well, yeah, you're so right. So a couple of things. One, you should default to their solution. Yeah. Right? So, and there's a couple of reasons for that. So one is eventually so so I I I have a way that I express this, which is that I used to travel a fair bit. Yeah. So people would come I called it the parade when people would come to my office on the Monday after I was away for a week. Right. And they'd bring me some problem. And I'd say, Well, you know, like if it was last Tuesday and I was in Winnipeg, ⁓ what would you have done? Well, I would have done this. I say, okay, well you know what I think we should do? I think we should do that. Yeah. Right? And so what you're doing is you're training them a bunch of things. One, ⁓ you trust them, right? You have the autonomy, because I'm I'm telling you to do what you wanted to do, right? So you have the autonomy. Over time, they'll bring less problems to you and solve more themselves. speaker-0: Well if you've been okay with it three times or four times and you mentioned JFK. I like what he did too. Like you said, the womanized thing, okay, yeah. Yeah, we'll push that aside. But like I can look at the actions, not the person. Kinda thing like that. speaker-1: Yeah. So well about speaker-0: Why why him? Like why why the hardshi I know he pushed hardship ⁓ about more for me. speaker-1: Yeah, I think he I think he was a president with a heart and ⁓ you know, the the work that he did around civil rights and I think he he moved that country along a fair bit, at least my understanding of it, right? My my hero worship of him goes back a l a long way like to my you know, to when I was a little kid. Yeah. Because my interestingly, ⁓ so I'm I was born in nineteen sixty, I'll give it away. speaker-0: Right. Secrets out. Seekers out. speaker-1: Yeah. So my first living memory is of my mother screaming. ⁓ she was at the ironing board and she's I was almost four and ⁓ she's screaming and that I I just that was my first living memory. I just remembered it and then when I was an adult I asked her like what any idea what that was? Like something happened, whatever? She goes found I was watching TV while I was ironing and I found a JFK had died, like it been shot. ⁓ wow. Right? And so that kind of crystal that that that made me feel good about the fact that I had, you know, kind of you know worshipped him as a as a child. And admittedly he was he he was probably blown up bigger than life because he died, you know, throughout the sixties and the seventies. But but it was because of his ⁓ vision, you know, the going to the moon and all of that. Think thinking really big. being a war hero as well. He wrote a great book too called Profiles and Courage, which I recommend to anybody. It's about it's about eight politicians that had the courage to do the right thing, but not the popular thing. So it's a it's a great book. He he wrote he wrote it while he was ⁓ flat on his back in the hospital because he he had a terrible back. He also worked through a lot of pain in his life, so so but anyway, I wanted to touch on the notion that you said about we're gonna do things because they're hard, right? So I have a philosophy, which is that everything in life is hard, but you get to choose your heart. I'll give you an example. Yeah. Okay? So you go to the gym pretty well every day or you know, five, six times a week, whatever it is, right? Is that hard? It is. You know what else is hard? Being 55 and obese. But you're choosing your heart, right? You're choosing a different heart than that one. Yeah. And the thing is, you get to by because you're choosing that hard. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: you putting yourself in a position where you'll always have the choice. If you didn't choose that hard, you'd be 53 and you wouldn't be able to you you can't turn it around at at that point. Yeah. Right. ⁓ another example is ⁓ getting up in the morning. Right? That's hard. But you know what else is hard? Living with everything that comes from not getting up in the morning. speaker-0: Right. It's like money, right? It's hard to say money, but then it's also hard Yeah. speaker-1: Hard not to have any So you get to choose your hard and I really suggest that in most cases choose the hard that's today. Right? university degree is another example, like despite what we said earlier about the value of them or not, right? You know, what's hard? Getting a university degree. You know what else is hard? Not having one. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah it is. Yeah, no, we everything's a little more of an uphill battle. It's true. No, I I totally agree with that. ⁓ I thought. I feel like there's so much I want to talk to you about. I'm trying to like flip through all this. ⁓ you walking away from your company. I kinda caught this on your onboarding forum. Walking away from your company, being silent about it but not being happy about it. Kinda like the speaker-1: Right. Right. speaker-0: When I saw his name, I'm like, hold on. Like, is that the right guy? Yeah, that was him. He left and kind of sour about it, but kept his mouth shut. He respected it. I'm like, is he hinting? And then I looked down and he had a little smiley face on there. I'm like, is he hinting on something here? Like It is like the same paradox. speaker-1: No, I wasn't drawing the parallel actually between interesting that you caught that. Yeah. But it is kinda like that, right? You obviously know a little bit about Dave Keon. Yeah. speaker-0: Like and if no one knows like he was a hockey player, clean player, didn't cut corners, he pretty straight shooter kind of guy. But like left the organization, was sour with it, but didn't go public on it, but just wasn't happy. Like there's a whole story behind it's a little bit more speaker-1: Yeah. You have to know the history of the leaves and the terrible owner that we had at the end. speaker-0: Right, so there's a whole history behind it, but like I guess the humility behind it is the same as you would leaving corporate America, right? Kind of thing. So I I found that kinda cool when you did that and I'm like, is he like lining me up for something here? I'm like, he tests me if I did my research and I should read it stuff like that. speaker-1: also never worn any number other than fourteen in ho playing hockey in probably fifteen different teams over my lifetime. So really? Yeah, never wore any number other than fourteen. That's yeah, except for one time in the call in ⁓ you in when I when I was doing my MBA, I arranged a hockey ⁓ speaker-0: That's fun fact. speaker-1: a hockey just a one game between our NBA, Western, and the Toronto U of Tree at Toronto ⁓ Rotman hockey like they basically the NBA program threw together threw together two teams, right? Okay, yeah yeah. And because I ⁓ organized it they made me the captain and they gave me number ninety nine which I was not comfortable wearing because I did not deserve that number by any means. speaker-0: 15. Speaking on that, not deserving. Okay, you see you're lining me up. This is just so easy. Ego demands a spotlight. Humility lets work speak for itself. I pulled that one because you said I recently just jumped into the sector and I don't deserve to answer this question when I was asking about the noise. And I'm like, you've lived every angle of the sector. Like you've lived seen so many different perspectives and angles. I'm like, have a say of speaker-1: Yeah. So I was approaching that from a really specific point of view, which is that I just launched five, six weeks ago this new digital business, right? So this is a new area for So what's a business too? So it's called the Confident Operator. Okay. And it's a series of tools for more established businesses, you know, for like five to fifteen million dollars to help them reduce the chaos, bring a little bit more order. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: bring some structure into the company and it's for it's for companies that have probably, you know, just naturally grown into a little bit of a chaotic situation. Probably ⁓ an owner that doesn't have a biz degree, right? So doesn't know some of the basic theory and tools. ⁓ Yeah, they they work their way into those, right? So so ⁓ that that's basically what the business is all about. And it's it's fully digital. I'm trying to build it so it totally scales without me having to be part of it. It's a bit of an experiment I'm running. ⁓ I don't feel I don't feel like I'm in any way an expert in that domain. I see. Yeah. So that's we should talk about it's speaker-0: That's what we're kind of building up too. So if we can help each other out some way. I have so many resources now, like Sure. Yeah, that'd be cool. I I do like that idea. So that's what you're talking about. Because I'm like reading this. I'm like, you don't have a right to say I'm like, I don't know. Like we were talking about. speaker-1: cana cannabis, ⁓ about telecom, about ⁓ entrepreneurship education, whatever I would feel quite yeah quite entitled to talk about speaker-0: No but you know what I mean I'm reading this and I'm like I I just read that whole resume in bio and I'm like, really? ⁓ you don't have a range to talk about so I was talking as a whole with your experience with everything you've gone through. Alright, so this is one thing I've been trying to dive into. I've been trying my best, honestly, but I just I don't know if I'm doing it wrong. I don't know if I'm just not following the steps. The whole meditation is end thing. I've tried it. I'm good at having my morning journal with my mission statement, writing my quote for the day, but the whole meditation thing, like you gotta explain it to me. I I I just speaker-1: It's not that hard. speaker-0: It is. It's so hard for me. I can't do it. I get like squirrely brain and I just can't dial into myself. speaker-1: Make squirry brain go away. That doesn't make it go away. It certainly diminishes it though. So I mean, so ⁓ in Zen we practice very simple form of meditation. Essentially it's go sit and stare at a wall for twenty minutes. Sure you can. ⁓ I can't. With all your discipline, of course you can. speaker-0: I can't do that. He won't with me so much of the time, like ask him, imagine me staring at a wall for twenty minutes. speaker-1: Not only that, you're not allowed to think. Yeah. But it's something, of course. speaker-0: I know. really want to get into it and I'm I don't know anyone that actually practices it daily and I'm like this is a perfect opportunity saying like how? Like how do you break that first barrier where like you're like speaker-1: Nom addicted. ⁓ it takes so it certainly takes some time to get good at it. And by good at it I simply mean that you're fairly good at keeping ⁓ thoughts out of like b the the idea is to try to essentially essentially have an empty mind for twenty minutes. ⁓ the the way you know, the way we all learn is you sit there, there's a certain way to sit. You can ⁓ you can even do it on a chair. I mean I don't, I sit on a mat, but but ⁓ you can also have a bench. It's lots of kinda ways to to physically align yourself. You l you pick a spot on the wall, you look at it, and you just can simply ⁓ count your breaths and Focus on your breath. So focus on the feeling of it going in your nose, down your throat, ⁓ into your lungs, and all of that and coming back out. And maybe a little bit of like, how how how am I feeling, how am I experiencing the floor against the ⁓ in steps of my feet? You know, basically you're you're ⁓ you're really thinking about your the physical, what's happening to you physically, and if you can stay focused on that, it pushes all other thoughts out of your mind. mind. Now what'll happen is typically most people will cut do a count to 10, right? So ⁓ you don't count on the in, you count on the out, you might get to three and then you realize that you're thinking about the concert that you're going to on Friday, right? And if you just start over you realize that you thought the thought, you push it away and you go back to your breath. speaker-0: So that's part of the practice is to kinda like And so do you do it for like a r a mental reset for a physical benefit? Why do you do it? And why did you get into it? speaker-1: There's a there's I guess. So I I got into it because a friend recommended that I try it, because I was in a a not a great place in my life at the time. I'd gone through a monastic divorce and I was I was a little mad at the world and I wasn't ⁓ wasn't in a in a good happy place. And so he gave me a book by a guy named John Kabat Zen called ⁓ Wherever You Go, There You Are. And that's kind of how I got started. He, my friend is into Zen as well, so he gave me some Zen reading to do. Just kind of started on the on the journey. I went on a couple of retreats where ⁓ so in b ⁓ in a well I I think I did it three times where you go, they're called silent retreats. You go on Friday evening ⁓ around dinner time, you stop talking. You don't talk again until Sunday dinner time. So you're and and intense intense meditation, so you'll do ⁓ like an speaker-0: Imagine me doing that. speaker-1: session on Friday night. An hour's a long time for me. My standard amount is 20 minutes. ⁓ So tw 20 minutes I think anybody can do that. And if you can't do 20, do 10. Because you know what? 10's better than zero. speaker-0: Yeah, because I'm really diving into the like Zen stoic thing. I'm like I speaker-1: Yeah, if you like stoicism I think you'd like a lot of the Zen principles as well. speaker-0: I just try to read think it up man and I'm like, I don't know what you're saying. I'm trying but I'm like, I'll get it. Like translating as I go. ⁓ and it's in English. That's why I say speaker-1: A lot of Buddhist stuff is kind of out there. Yeah. You know, it's it's I don't even know if it's meant to be understood. speaker-0: I read one the other day where it's like the most valuable part of a bowl is where there's no bowl and I'm like I get it because the empty part is where it's most valuable but I'm like why? Like why do we have to think that? speaker-1: Right. I don't I don't actually I I stopped reading all that stuff years ago. I'm not I'm not into any of that. There's a handful of things that I've glommed onto. And you know what I think like Buddhism is not a religion, it's more of a philosophy. But it's like a religion in the sense that like do you know any Catholics? You probably do, right? Cafeteria Catholic Catholicism, right? They take this that they like, they take this that they like, they take that that they like, right? And that's their form of Catholicism. And to me there's Nothing wrong with that. Like I don't think you have take the pieces that speaker-0: That's what I'm trying to do with Stoic Buddhism, right? I'm trying to I like, but I'm trying to learn what I like. And that's why I'm getting overwhelmed. I'm like, I hate reading their analogies, right? Yeah. I do like some of the perspectives, but can't sit there for an hour and meditate. But but you know what I mean? It's like I'm trying to like so I'm still at that early stage, but I'm like, I'm gonna get it, but I just try to talk to people about what they're doing because I feel like everyone that does it that's got into it, it works. speaker-1: You know who you should look up? You should look up Brad Warner, who's a real cool ⁓ practitioner of Zen. And he wrote a book he wrote a book called Hardcore Zen. He wrote a couple of others as well. ⁓ but he's a former like he he worked in Japan on Godzilla movies. He's a former bass player in like a punk band. He's a real cool dude. Yeah. And he practices Zen and he has his he has a YouTube channel. I really suggest maybe start with Brad because he pretty Brad Warner? Brad Warner. Pretty pretty easy way to to get into it for sure. Yeah. And I think some of the Buddhists love lists. So I think I think I think some of some of the lists you might like, like the five precepts. So you know I won't I won't basically I won't kill right. speaker-0: Sams green standard. speaker-1: I won't take that which is not given. Yeah. Which means, you know, don't don't steal. Now some Buddhists take it to the extreme of like if you don't give me a thing, I won't take it. Yeah. I I don't look at it that way. Right, ⁓ won't practice false speech, I won't engage in sexual misconduct. Yeah. Now sexual misconduct is because b Buddhism is not like religions in the sense that a lot of it's kind of open to your own interpretation. But for me it's just simply don't misuse sex. Exactly. And then the last one is that I won't take intoxicants. But a lot of people, so I'm now totally intoxicant free, okay? But ⁓ over the years I've partaken And lots of different intoxicants, right? Even while practicing Buddhism. And a lot of people, their take on that fifth one is that I won't allow intoxicants to let me go off the path of the other four. So in other words, there's nothing wrong with having a beer. Like the my friend, my friend who got me into Buddhism, he's he drinks. He doesn't drink excessively by any means. But he'll I don't drink anymore, but we go for lunch. He has ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Right, exactly. And and he and I've never seen this person drunk, right? So so and there's a few other lists that I think you'll you'll like. So so the the the notion of ⁓ we talked about it earlier of equanimity, right? Yeah. So some of these concepts I think would really probably resonate with you. Probably a lot more than some of the sayings and the you know, the the mantras and all that stuff. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, so that's a big thing on my list. I think that's where I'm at next phase is like lately I've become really at peace being by myself. Which again an an unt unteachable lesson. It's like once you get comfortable by your by yourself, it's a scary thing. It's like there's nothing that can like it's like, okay, cool. Like no problem. Like I'm completely okay by myself and it's it's actually like almost worrisome where I'm like, I can do anything by myself because like I'm that confident and comfortable we're like nothing can shake me anymore. It's like it's a really weird phase, but like now that I'm good by myself, I'm like maybe this is the next step to be able to like enjoy time by myself and benefit from it. speaker-1: And I think I think the payoff to you spending all this time by yourself and getting to the point where you're comfortable, what it means is you've probably, I don't know if you were already there, but you may or may not have been, you probably now well might not be now, you might have always, but you like yourself. Because if you're with yourself a lot and you don't like yourself, you're going to have to work on those things. speaker-0: I do eat. You hit the nail on the head. I like myself so much now that I enjoy being by by myself. Don't get me wrong, I love going for dinner with my wife and stuff like that. But if she's gone for the night, I have friends who have to go get wasted with their buddies and go to the bar and stuff. I'm like, I'm gonna sit on a touch and watch a movie. Or I'll go to the movies by myself. I'll go to dinner by myself. And even my wife, she's like, How do you do it by yourself? I'm like, I just go. I'm good. Like speaker-1: Yeah. Right. Enjoy. speaker-0: I when I eat a like I I go off and get a plate of pasta, I'm actually gonna concentrate on actually eating. Like it it's weird that like when you dial it speaker-1: That's another Buddhist concept of staying in the moment, right? Being present. And that's one thing that that ⁓ meditation actually helps you with is by b being in the moment. And really, really being I know it it sounds woo-woo and everything, but this notion of being present, the best example I can think of it is that when you get mad, after a while, when you've been practicing Zen, you'll still get angry. Like you're not perfect, right? speaker-0: Yeah, you have it. speaker-1: But you're aware that you're getting angry and you're actually choosing to. speaker-0: Yeah. Right yeah, yeah. No, I I get that. And not really trying to control my emotions, that's where even if I have a day where I get like overwhelmed, I kinda step back and what do I do? I'm like, you know AJ, you gotta move the needle, let's make a list. Let's make a list. If I start talking away at stuff on a list, I'm moving the needle, eventually all this over stimulation is gonna go away because everything that's moving the needle is gonna be gone. Right. Like I'm really good at kind of removing myself into like a third party perspective kinda thing. Okay, one or two more questions because I think Thrun's cameras are gonna die. Okay, we don't stop playing because we're old. We grew old because we stopped playing. Why aren't you gonna retire? speaker-1: ⁓ well a bunch of reasons. I I think ⁓ you know I'm planning to live till I'm 90. So that's it. Okay. Yeah, like that's kind of my I might make it longer. I might not quite make ninety, but that's kind of the that's my working plan. And it's based on a handful of things, right? My my mom made it to 84, my dad made it to 90. I've lived a better life than them from the point of view of, you know, I've been better fed and all the rest of it. Like and but yeah, life might get me. Well, like, remember, luck luck has me doing it. But that's my kind of working plan, right? So I'm I'm in my mid. I don't wanna sit around on my ass for twenty five years. Yeah. Right? I'm not saying I'm never gonna retire. I probably at some point I will totally stop working. But for me, and I think for a lot of people nowadays, because of just the way l life is structured, retirement's not a cliff the way it was for my dad, right? Like for for my dad it was like work, work, work, work, work, sixty five down. No, he he still lived twenty five more years. But at sixty five, he went from like speaker-0: A lot of speaker-1: 100% work down to zero work. And you know he lasted about I don't I don't know how long. It wasn't long. Probably not even a year. And he I mentioned earlier he's really handy, right? He went and got a job at the local hardware store and he was in heaven. And he worked four days a week, half days. So he's working what a total of two days. because we're we're not meant to sit around on our butt. Right? And yeah, I guess I could write or something, but that's not that's not what I'm driven to do. So for me, retirement's gonna be a ramp. Right? And I'm I'm actually already on it. I've like I've I've already started the ramp. Exactly. speaker-0: benchmarks your mind slowly degressing all right what's one question if you're sitting across from an idol I don't know just someone you look up to someone you always want to sit across from what's one question you'd want to be asked speaker-1: I'd want to be asked. Yeah. Ooh, wow, that's a real tough one. speaker-0: Mine would be, and I've learned this over the past few episodes, I ask every guest this, would be, when is it enough? Because I find I have no cap and I'm always looking to move the goalposts a little bit. It's like I don't know that for myself. It's like, when is it enough for you? And I'm like, when I crawl out of life. It's unfortunate, but I'm just wired that way. I know I operate at that high capacity and I'm like, I would love for someone to ask me that and me be able to have an answer. So even if we don't have an answer for it, what's something you'd want someone to ask? speaker-1: So Yeah, 'cause for interestingly for for me for that one, that's that's r I don't care what if somebody else thinks is enough because ⁓ that's person that's my you know, that's a personal thing for me. I guess maybe I might wanna be asked why I did some of the stupid things I did. You know? So speaker-0: I I like that because a lot of people wouldn't want to go back and revisit that, right? So that's I I like Okay, last one is what would you name this episode? We actually name it this. We first episode, he's like, What do you want to name it? I'm like, I don't know, I'm just gonna start ask asking the guests from the episode, yeah. We asked the guests, what would you name it? speaker-1: Yeah. That's what I mean this episode. So do you do that f ⁓ for every episode? speaker-0: We talked about a lot of stuff on speaker-1: Really wouldn't need the spot. Yeah, exactly. So really whatever ⁓ Popori, Boulia Bass. Jambalaya. speaker-0: What do you jump the lion? speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: So you I usually give the guests a minute to social plugs. ⁓ sure. We've got two books. speaker-1: So ⁓ you can find me at Bradpoolis.com, so B R A D P O U U L O S dot com. ⁓ links to everything are there. You can also, if you're of the mind, you can add me on LinkedIn and I'm more than happy to ⁓ connect. And then the other thing is ⁓ AJ mentioned earlier, I have a newsletter, and you can find that at confidentoperator.com. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, I appreciate you coming on. This was a lot of fun. Yeah. It was actually a longer episode too. Honestly, we covered so much though, and I feel like there's so many things we aligned with, like from business to where I want to go with it to what you've already experienced. S I think the listeners got so like the audience got so much out of you already having those experiences, teaching those unteachable lessons, telling people like you're not always gonna be happy, but you make yourself happy. Like there's so many things here and like it's a lot to unpackage. It's been a great episode. I can't wait for more conversations like this. But again, Brad, thank you for coming on, sharing Everything you did, make sure you pick up the book, make sure you check out his newsletter, reach out to him. Like you said on LinkedIn. I know me and him are gonna be connected a little more. Besides that, another week on Forget the Noise Podcast. So stay tuned and a lot more to come.