Latest / The Retail Podcast / Retail’s Next Frontier: Leadership, Agility & Digital Influence with Ben Miller of Shoptalk

Transcript

Retail’s Next Frontier: Leadership, Agility & Digital Influence with Ben Miller of Shoptalk · The Retail Podcast

• 0:00
  And this is where it also comes back to the mindset.
• 0:01
  So it's it'd be very easy to be very Britishly cynical about it.
• 0:07
  Yeah. And say, oh, voice commerce
• 0:09
  never really took off and the metaverse didn't take off.
• 0:12
  So they say I can use them going to take off.
• 0:14
  Great. OK, have have that mindset, but
• 0:17
  you know it there is going to be shifting the volume.
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  But that's the mindset that makes you lose track of the fact
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  that one of the fastest growing areas for search at the moment
• 0:24
  is visual. Hello and welcome to a special
• 0:38
  episode of the retail podcast. I know I always say they're
• 0:41
  special, but for me it's like a crescendo.
• 0:43
  They just keep going better and better.
• 0:45
  And it's special because I'm in the hive offices with none other
• 0:49
  with world famous Ben Reeler, VP of content at shop talk.
• 0:54
  And, you know, for me, it's like crazy because I'm always in the
• 0:57
  stage watching you, Ben, right? And I'm just lapping up, you
• 1:01
  know, the speakers that you find, the content that you
• 1:03
  produce and put there. But for the people that maybe
• 1:06
  haven't had a chance to come along to shop, talk around the
• 1:09
  world, Yeah. Do you mind just giving us who
• 1:11
  you are and what you do? Yeah, of course.
• 1:13
  And, and welcome to the office. Thank you.
• 1:15
  Thank you for coming in, Alex. It's pleasure.
• 1:16
  It's great to see you. And so, yeah, Ben Miller, my,
• 1:19
  my, my role. I'm, I'm VP of what we call
• 1:21
  original contents and strategy at the shop talk and grocery
• 1:24
  shop group. So what, what does that really
• 1:26
  mean? It means I've the privilege of
• 1:29
  working at a global role across the global portfolio.
• 1:32
  We now have 5 shows under the shop talk and grocery shop
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  banners in the US, in Europe and Barcelona can really soon and,
• 1:41
  and in the Middle East in Abu Dhabi for, for our new shop talk
• 1:44
  blocks. And, and my role is to pull
• 1:47
  together research insights, coordinate the talking points
• 1:52
  and really to bring new original thinking to all of our shows.
• 1:56
  And also to make sure that we weave a common narrative of how
• 2:00
  we're seeing the retail market emerge and develop and what's
• 2:04
  next and how we weave it throughout our full portfolio.
• 2:08
  And because job talk is all about the future of retail, it's
• 2:11
  all about digital transformation, it's all about
• 2:14
  retail innovation. So if we want to make sure that
• 2:18
  all of our shows are looking forward-looking to the future,
• 2:21
  we need to spend a lot of time really looking at the market,
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  really thinking about what's going on in retail.
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  And then we position our content and our show propositions
• 2:29
  accordingly. Wow.
• 2:31
  OK. I mean, thank you for giving up
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  the time because we're only three weeks away from Shop Talk
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  Europe. So you must be it's getting very
• 2:40
  close to the baby being delivered, right.
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  In terms of you're, you're almost there.
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  It is. You must.
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  Speak to so many people in the industry around the world about
• 2:50
  insights. What's coming up?
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  What's top of mind for you? What's the one thing that you're
• 2:55
  hearing people talk about? And I, I have a very privileged
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  position. So my, my, my background is
• 3:01
  retail as, as an operator, yeah. And then I did a long sting
• 3:04
  consultancy side in global retail focusing on on on
• 3:09
  groceries. So I kind of bring that and I'm
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  now sitting this incredible seat where I get to, as you say, talk
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  to literally hundreds of senior leaders through the year where
• 3:21
  because we we select and we prep every single speaker in every
• 3:25
  single conversation and we get to work with incredible
• 3:28
  moderators who lead our conversations on stage.
• 3:31
  So what are we hearing at the moment?
• 3:32
  Uncertainty and agility and the requirements of that.
• 3:35
  Yeah, we talk a bit about that. We look a lot about how
• 3:39
  customers and their online behaviours are changing.
• 3:43
  OK, some around transaction, but a lot at the moment about
• 3:46
  searching discovery. Yeah.
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  And how search is changing and how how you get your products
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  found and, and, and the overlap into to to digital marketing,
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  lots and lots of conversations about how that then blurs into
• 3:57
  media and how that blurs into retail media.
• 3:59
  So retail media is, you know, exploding in terms of the money
• 4:01
  flowing into it, while kind of that a lot of that community sit
• 4:04
  within the shop talk world. So lots of conversations about
• 4:07
  how you balance adjacent revenue streams to the core business.
• 4:10
  And then there's a lot at the moment that comes up in
• 4:13
  conversations around operational efficiency, so particularly
• 4:17
  around stores. So one of the things we do is we
• 4:19
  keep a very close eye on where funding, particularly VC and PE
• 4:25
  money goes into got you because that helps to give you an idea
• 4:28
  of still being invested in about what's going to hit, you know,
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  trying to talk about the future of retail sounds very
• 4:33
  pretentious. I would never claim to be a
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  futurology, you know, I'm, I'm a grocer from Yorkshire.
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  But one of the things that we did try and do is to understand,
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  well, OK, if we see a lot of money being invested into a into
• 4:46
  an area of technology now that what what does that mean?
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  What does that look like? And yeah, who are the people
• 4:51
  investing and why are they doing that and that sort of thing.
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  And one of the areas that we've seen a lot of investment into at
• 4:55
  the moment is in store technologies to drive
• 4:57
  efficiency. Good.
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  Because those wafer thin margins that retailers work on are are
• 5:02
  getting squeezed yeah, more than ever.
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  And we and we all know why. So a lot around operational
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  efficiency, how you find that next leap and how technology can
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  help continue to take cost out of stores.
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  And at the same time how you make those stores and mostly
• 5:20
  physical, but yeah as well how make them more engaging.
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  Yeah. Because yeah, we've all been
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  into beautiful engaging showcase stores and you've been to really
• 5:30
  efficient effective stores. But how, how did you both?
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  Yeah, because that's kind of where the game is.
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  Got your moment. And that's huge in retail's
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  mind. Yeah, we had lots of
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  conversations around that as well.
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  Investments that we're seeing, you know, whether it's some of
• 5:45
  the investments in robotics, Yeah, a lot of the work on
• 5:48
  inventory management and the income continued on that that
• 5:51
  grocery line and lots of investment going into inventory
• 5:53
  management, stock management, more and more retailers buying
• 5:56
  into ESL's what all of which are there to try to drive the
• 5:59
  efficiency and how you plug AI, Gintic AI into all that to make
• 6:03
  all that more efficient whilst also to drive that front end
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  experience driving the CX because we've seen so much
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  investment into loyalty mechanics.
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  Yeah, into kind of gamification into and just beautiful
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  retailing. I was in an al behind store a
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  fortnight to go and just reminded me how great and they
• 6:23
  are a really efficient and effective retailer, but doing
• 6:25
  some fantastic things in merchandising.
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  How you save here, where you need to invest, how you get the
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  product and range, I don't know. That's kind of core retailing,
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  but it's it's not an either or and there's a whole series of
• 6:37
  retailers. And I think you know, Mercadon
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  is a great example of of being able to do both.
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  One, I think the most profitable grosser right now globally from
• 6:46
  a margin perspective, right, because the margins are, it's
• 6:48
  incredible when you look at it. Are there any examples of like
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  bold leadership that you can share with us in terms of things
• 6:54
  that you've seen that have really stood out for you?
• 6:56
  Yeah, I, I think it's a great question.
• 7:00
  And that topic of leadership has can never be more important at
• 7:04
  the moment. Yeah.
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  Because, you know, I mean, one of the first things that's open
• 7:07
  everybody's mind doesn't is uncertainty.
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  And, you know, the conversations that we have is less about what
• 7:13
  are the concrete actions I need to take now.
• 7:15
  And of course there are some of that.
• 7:17
  And you know, I feel we don't don't have enough time to talk
• 7:20
  about tariffs and the implications, but you're one of
• 7:23
  the big implications is around, you know, leadership and
• 7:26
  managing through uncertainty and bold leadership.
• 7:29
  So ensuring that everybody's really clear on the direction is
• 7:32
  going in. That is really clear on the
• 7:34
  investments that's being made. These things are incredibly
• 7:37
  important at the moment. Now there is some I mean,
• 7:38
  there's some tactical things that need to be done around kind
• 7:41
  of pricing, price elasticity, price visibility.
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  But your biggest, yeah, you can invest a lot into great AI to
• 7:48
  understand if I at least the price they'll be here.
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  What's it mean to somebody over here in the store?
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  I mean, the most important thing, the best leave you've got
• 7:54
  on price electricity is brand building.
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  And that's really interesting because we've been so focused on
• 7:59
  performance marketing for so long.
• 8:01
  Some brands have taken their eye of building that the the brand
• 8:05
  and the top of the funnel work. And so we kind of really admire
• 8:09
  leaders who have got really clear, really bold visions, are
• 8:14
  able to get their organisation behind it because they will help
• 8:18
  navigate some of the change that this mentioned.
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  So, you know, whether it is, I mean, we had Richard Dixon from
• 8:24
  Gap. He has one about keynotes.
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  It's all kind of great. Loved it.
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  Loved it. Yeah, it's great.
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  It's all support. And if someone who's bringing
• 8:31
  the momentum back to Gap to say we know what the Gap brand has
• 8:36
  stood for, how do we make it that again?
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  How do we line up behind it? Yeah, I think in the retail
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  space, you know, it's impossible not to admire a phenomenal word.
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  Doug Mcmillon has done and continues to do at Walmart.
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  And again, having taken that organisation and made it tech
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  first, but enabled by people, that's a huge change from where
• 8:58
  our business has been to to see the leadership he's brought.
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  You know, you mentioned like here, that's that's a great IKEA
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  in Oxford Street is a great example of a store built by a
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  confident retailer. Yeah, I know it's his customers
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  who knows his value, value proposition and is prepared to
• 9:14
  invest. And then has in the Inca group
• 9:17
  have got a really interesting structure where they can buy the
• 9:19
  building and the property play. So there's a there's a yeah.
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  And those those are those are the bold moves to come back to
• 9:27
  what they were saying. There's, there's, there's really
• 9:29
  Admiral at the moment. Yeah, I think it's really
• 9:31
  interesting because if if you, if you look at the maturity of
• 9:35
  regions, you know, like ESL in the UK, in my mind, there's
• 9:39
  always been lacking compared to a medium of Saturn in Germany or
• 9:43
  in Europe where they can do elastic pricing, where they can
• 9:47
  do dynamic pricing or even own brand, right, own label, whether
• 9:51
  you're Sax and you've just done this massive merger with the
• 9:54
  brand company and in luxury they want to do more own brand.
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  It feels like there's these regional nuances that, again,
• 10:01
  you must be tapped into because you see it from a Sharp Talk
• 10:04
  Europe perspective, you see it from a Sharp Talk Las Vegas.
• 10:08
  Or 4. I'm just.
• 10:10
  Curious, what are those regional nuances that you're seeing that
• 10:14
  in your mind really sort of, you know, they, they stand out.
• 10:18
  Great question. And yeah, I think we're at a
• 10:20
  time now where there is so much uncertainty into the economic
• 10:26
  and consumer position, particularly in the US.
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  So we are we're AUS company and and, and shuttle start in the US
• 10:34
  and consumer behaviour spending has been really strong, yeah,
• 10:39
  for a number of years now in the US and that's been questioned at
• 10:43
  the moment. So that is a huge regional watch
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  out for us. I think one of the things that
• 10:49
  we find fascinating in Europe, we we talk about shuttle Europe.
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  One of the fun, the journeys that we've been on is you're
• 10:56
  creating a, a community for a environment that doesn't exist.
• 11:01
  So there is no European retail market?
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  Absolutely. They're all 30 plus different
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  new ones, special, unique and different real markets.
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  So one of the things that we've done in in Shopton, Europe is
• 11:14
  say, OK, step back, you, you could be Ricky Mark Saturn.
• 11:18
  Yeah, great business. Yeah, you'd be Curry's Dixons.
• 11:21
  Yeah, great business. You're, you're trying to solve
• 11:24
  some of the same problems in geographies that don't overlap.
• 11:27
  Yeah. So let's find an environment
• 11:28
  where you can come together and learn to see.
• 11:30
  So you're. Sharing that sort of yeah,
• 11:32
  diversity of. Yeah, the the the guys now
• 11:35
  behind are trying to solve the same problems as the guys at
• 11:37
  Sainsbury's. But if you create an environment
• 11:40
  where they can come together and share and learn and share from
• 11:42
  each other, yeah, never mind the guys at Sainsbury's then
• 11:45
  learning from Mini Mart or Decathlon, Yeah, you create a
• 11:49
  whole whole new dynamic dynamic. And that's there are some
• 11:53
  incredible similarities. But you're, I mean, you're
• 11:55
  absolutely right. In Europe, there's much more
• 11:57
  conversations about sustainability.
• 11:59
  There is a lot more conversations about the whole
• 12:02
  fulfilment models because the population density, yeah, across
• 12:05
  Europe is so different to the population entity in the state.
• 12:08
  So your, your approaches to supply chain, yeah, come to
• 12:11
  e-commerce very different, yeah. When we have our grocery
• 12:14
  conversations, private label, the penetration is much higher,
• 12:18
  stores a smaller range, changes are smaller and SKU counts for,
• 12:22
  for the brand of manufacturers are lower.
• 12:24
  So it's a different relationship.
• 12:26
  And then more recently, retail media that's exploded in the US
• 12:31
  and Europe is playing catch up. And it's really interesting to,
• 12:35
  to watch that dynamic play out. And I I was playing out in a
• 12:38
  different way with you being quite so fragmented.
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  I love the the whole new markets.
• 12:43
  That stage that you had this share at Shop Talk was
• 12:46
  interesting in terms of bringing the best of what retail media is
• 12:49
  like. Mentioned grocery and I don't
• 12:53
  want to be biassed, but there's BM who I think it's BM in again
• 12:57
  in Spain. They're a Basque, a grocer who
• 13:01
  have created these beautiful stores that for me sort of made
• 13:06
  me understand that there there's this sort of price war going on
• 13:09
  between all of the grocers. But then what happened to the
• 13:12
  experience war, right? What what are they doing to
• 13:15
  create better experiences? What's the path to grocery shop
• 13:18
  for you? Yeah.
• 13:19
  So grocery shop is our grocery and CPG FMCG show.
• 13:24
  This takes place in in Las Vegas at the end of September, early
• 13:27
  October. Yeah.
• 13:28
  And, and has historically, we started as the US showbiz become
• 13:32
  increasingly global. Yes.
• 13:33
  And, and I think right now actually it's, it's quite an
• 13:36
  easy proposition. There is that there's two big
• 13:39
  questions in town in the grocery world.
• 13:41
  Yeah. If you are a branded food
• 13:44
  manufacturer, standard grocery, CPG, FM, CG, there's one
• 13:48
  question and that's how do you grow volume?
• 13:50
  Yeah, because volume of branded CPG products has been
• 13:54
  challenged. So a lot of the growth has come
• 13:55
  from inflation. So how do you drive that volume
• 13:59
  and how do you trigger and inspire and get your shoppers
• 14:02
  interested in your brand? And how do you learn from
• 14:05
  fashion and apparel where the digital influencing is much more
• 14:09
  developed? Yeah, in in, in a categories
• 14:11
  where you're still buying physically for the retailers.
• 14:14
  It's absolutely that question of how do you kind of create the
• 14:16
  environment that people want to go out prepared to take the
• 14:19
  effort in to go to and, and how do you then inspire?
• 14:22
  How do you interrupt shoppers? And then you layer it's grocery
• 14:27
  in CPGS where retail media at this peak, you layer that over
• 14:30
  and actually stand back and you say how is retail media being
• 14:33
  value additive to the value chain go?
• 14:36
  Yeah, So how is it helping me solve my problem?
• 14:39
  I shift volume or create inspiring environments and
• 14:43
  ultimately, you know, you do that if it's additive to the
• 14:46
  customer journey. Yeah.
• 14:47
  So, so much of the conversations about adjacent revenue streams
• 14:50
  focus on the P&L of the retailer, for example, or the
• 14:55
  media reach actually. How do you take the conversation
• 14:58
  to be, you know, back to JBPS? We actually where retailers and
• 15:02
  consumer brands have traditionally been great.
• 15:04
  Yeah. How do you create joint value
• 15:05
  for the end shopper? And that's the conversation that
• 15:08
  we're looking forward to having in grocery because the bits, the
• 15:12
  bits, the jigsaw are all there. Yeah, but we just need to build
• 15:15
  that jigsaw a bit differently to how we've done it before.
• 15:18
  Yeah, it just feels like we need to have a grocery shop talk
• 15:22
  because there's so many questions I've got around, for
• 15:25
  example, the maturity of ESL as a technology innovation AI,
• 15:29
  Yeah, I mean, I think we should get an award.
• 15:30
  We've not mentioned AI or attend once right through through the
• 15:34
  conversation, but it just feels like there's so many moving
• 15:37
  pieces like own brand and and how you sort of, I don't know,
• 15:42
  provide insights and and bring those to life.
• 15:45
  Yeah, yeah. And that and that's what and
• 15:47
  that's why we have a grocery specific show because it's
• 15:50
  sufficiently different than nuance to to rely on all that.
• 15:53
  But look, we're we're our view on AI.
• 15:57
  So AI there is no doubt it is an incredibly transformational
• 16:00
  technology, a gentique AI. It's it's really exciting where
• 16:05
  that can go. Yeah, because, yeah, retail, you
• 16:09
  know, your listeners know this retail's a scale game.
• 16:12
  Yeah, it's about scale and process.
• 16:13
  That's how you build profit. You build profit in tiny
• 16:17
  increments by doing things over and over and over and over
• 16:20
  again. That that's the business of
• 16:21
  retail. And if a ginger Ki can make that
• 16:23
  more efficient, which is the whole principle of a ginger Ki,
• 16:25
  that becomes exciting. But in reality, the technology
• 16:29
  is an exciting bit. The, the, the, the, the exciting
• 16:32
  bit is the what the technology does.
• 16:34
  So what we're really interested in is what's the outcome?
• 16:37
  So how is it? How helping to drive
• 16:38
  availability? How's it helping to drive
• 16:41
  inventory visibility? How's it helping you communicate
• 16:46
  to your customers in a better way?
• 16:47
  Yeah. And the answer to that might be
• 16:49
  an AI session or maybe something else.
• 16:50
  But the AI is just in all the technology, it's what's the
• 16:53
  business outcome. Yeah, that is the interesting
• 16:56
  bit. And that's where that's where
• 16:57
  kind of we like to focus the conversation.
• 16:59
  One, 100% you, I mean, if, if we had your, I don't know, top ten
• 17:04
  CE OS sat here, I think they would automatically just switch
• 17:09
  off if the outcome for the business wasn't there, right?
• 17:13
  And we're talking about technology for technology's sake
• 17:16
  because that that's not going to get the hearts and minds of
• 17:18
  customers. It's not going to get the hearts
• 17:20
  and minds of employees. And and I think one of the
• 17:22
  things that is really interesting within that it comes
• 17:24
  back to our bold leadership yeah is is there is definitely
• 17:28
  cultural and mindset unlocks required to take advantage of it
• 17:31
  100%. I I was I was reading some
• 17:34
  Outland CEO of open AII was founder of open AIII was he made
• 17:39
  a really interesting observation this week yeah, where he said
• 17:43
  there he the day of seeing a generational difference in how
• 17:46
  generations are utilising check TPT.
• 17:49
  He was talking about older generations, and I don't know
• 17:52
  what that means. Are using ChatGPT as a search
• 18:01
  engine. Yes, we're younger generations
• 18:05
  using ChatGPT as an operating system.
• 18:08
  Got you. And I think that's fantastic
• 18:11
  insight into the change that these tools can provide, but can
• 18:17
  only provide if we've got the culture, the people, really
• 18:21
  inquisitive people with space to be able to explore, to unlock
• 18:25
  the benefits. So, you know, technology on its
• 18:27
  own is meaningless. It's all about the people and
• 18:29
  the execution of that. And I thought that was a really
• 18:31
  interesting insight. So, you know, one of the things
• 18:33
  that we try and do is, yeah, OK, we focus on the business
• 18:35
  benefit, but we also try and help create an environment in a
• 18:38
  culture where people can learn to and be ready to walk away
• 18:43
  from any of our shows or any of our interventions wanting to try
• 18:46
  something different and want to make a bit of a change.
• 18:49
  I think you've sort of answered this.
• 18:50
  So I feel a bit unfair going back.
• 18:52
  But if we just think about, you know, you've got your CE OS or
• 18:55
  your execs here and they, they've just been to one of the
• 19:00
  shows, what's that sort of top five things or what are the top
• 19:05
  things you want them to be leaving from?
• 19:07
  And we've got Shop Talk Europe imminently, Yeah.
• 19:10
  What should be on their radar for the next 12 months?
• 19:13
  Yeah, 18 months, Five years, yeah.
• 19:16
  I mean. Great question.
• 19:17
  So I think there is this pretty one narrative that I think is
• 19:22
  the core narrative that runs through everything.
• 19:26
  And that is I don't want to hear.
• 19:28
  I don't want to hear, I don't want to read.
• 19:30
  Anybody ever taught again? Talk about, ohh, physical
• 19:36
  retail. Isn't that.
• 19:37
  Yeah, we all know. So can we just acknowledge that
• 19:43
  people still say that? Yeah.
• 19:45
  So look, what is it, 80% of retail is still physical and
• 19:51
  there is, there is so many reasons why that continues.
• 19:53
  Now we think it varies in category and that sort of thing.
• 19:56
  So the point of transaction for the majority of retail is still
• 20:00
  physical and will remain, yeah. But for many retailers the
• 20:04
  growth that they're unlocking is for their e-commerce business,
• 20:07
  Yes. So you've got a balance and
• 20:10
  you've got to resource accordingly the volume.
• 20:14
  That physical is giving you but also the growth opportunity that
• 20:17
  ecommerce is still providing Walmart generating all their
• 20:20
  growth through ecom. So interesting, yeah, when you
• 20:22
  break, when you break down, look at it.
• 20:24
  So understanding that dynamic. And the second dynamic is that
• 20:28
  whilst the majority of actual transaction continues to happen
• 20:31
  physically, the point of influence and inspiration is
• 20:36
  increasingly digital, right? So even if you've got great
• 20:39
  physical stores or great physical points of distribution,
• 20:42
  great physical products, yeah, you've got to make sure that
• 20:45
  within your team you've got that digital mindset because that's
• 20:48
  where the that is where the inspiration and that's where the
• 20:52
  influencing the shoppers is taking place.
• 20:54
  So let let me give you an example of that.
• 20:57
  So globally, search, how people find out about things like 89%
• 21:02
  of searches on through Google, Retail's always been slightly
• 21:05
  different because you've got this dynamic where that's been
• 21:07
  great. There's a search engine.
• 21:09
  So digital search is having, you've also got what happens in
• 21:11
  store and in retail it kind of split evenly.
• 21:14
  So either in store or increasingly within digital
• 21:17
  stores, that's where you find out about it.
• 21:19
  And then you've got social growing and that this model, if
• 21:22
  you're a digital marketer, you'd be familiar with, OK, I need to
• 21:26
  help make sure my products are found on search engines, on
• 21:30
  retail owned assets and in social.
• 21:34
  And actually, again, if you follow the money, yeah, that's
• 21:38
  been relatively easy. Go ahead, Google, Amazon and
• 21:41
  Meta. Yeah.
• 21:42
  And there's a reason why those three have built huge
• 21:43
  businesses. And.
• 21:46
  That model is, is really being challenged by the growth of AI
• 21:51
  based search. And these AI agents Perplexity
• 21:56
  was on our keynote page. I thought, yeah.
• 21:59
  And they talked about they do not have an advertising
• 22:02
  proposition because they want their results to be as organic
• 22:05
  as possible. So how do you influence that?
• 22:07
  If you've traditionally sat back and said, well, that's OK, I'm
• 22:09
  just going to, I'm just going to put the vast majority of my
• 22:12
  digital marketing budget into Amazon, Google and Meta.
• 22:16
  Yeah. Well, how, how do you deal with
• 22:17
  the and, and these exponential growth that's happening these
• 22:20
  agents at the moment? So I said as an example, because
• 22:23
  that's the digital mindset that leaders have got to have to, to
• 22:27
  make sure that they've got the right people in their businesses
• 22:30
  who are trying to solve those problems.
• 22:32
  Because I can't sit here and tell you how you influence
• 22:35
  search resort complexity. It's an unknown.
• 22:37
  But what we can see is the direction of travel.
• 22:39
  So we're going to be super close though, we're going to get
• 22:41
  people who are curious in using it.
• 22:42
  So you know, this balance of we are growing through digital, but
• 22:48
  actually the vast majority of volume is physical, but our
• 22:52
  influencing is increasingly digital and that digital is
• 22:55
  crossing onto the physical store environment.
• 22:58
  Yes, in in an increasing way as well.
• 23:00
  Yeah. And we put out a lot of contents
• 23:02
  on that at the moment unlocking success in that area.
• 23:06
  And it's not always going to be measurable because we need, you
• 23:08
  know, a lot of it is going to be great businesses of putting into
• 23:11
  brand and putting to the top of the funnel and recognising that
• 23:14
  that's the mindset. If I was ACEO and I wasn't
• 23:17
  confident I had that mindset in my organisation, I that would be
• 23:22
  the thing that was making me lose sleep at night.
• 23:24
  I can keep going. I've got so many more questions,
• 23:26
  but I have to be sensitive to your time.
• 23:28
  Ben, thank you so much for giving up your time.
• 23:31
  I really appreciate it. I look forward to seeing you at
• 23:33
  Shop Talk Europe and the other shows.
• 23:36
  Yeah, no, a great conversation. So 2nd of June in Barcelona for
• 23:40
  Europe on Monday and I will look forward to seeing you then very
• 23:43
  much.