Latest / She's Not Done Yet! Rebuild Your Life After Gray Divorce / Life after Gray Divorce: You Get to Decide Who You Become Next | Kristen Kofoed

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Life after Gray Divorce: You Get to Decide Who You Become Next | Kristen Kofoed · She's Not Done Yet! Rebuild Your Life After Gray Divorce

• 0:00
  Kristen Kofoed: Shame doesn't serve you. Guilt doesn't serve you. Embarrassment doesn't serve you. It was your path at the time, so let that go because that just stops you from moving forward. So that's what I would say to shame. I think I feel that way about shame and and every aspect of everybody's lives. It doesn't do you any good to to look back. Now we just have to look forward as to what are the next steps?
• 0:24
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Are you considering a gray divorce, or are you going through one right now, or are you rebuilding your life on the other side of it? Welcome, sisters. You're in the right place. I'm your host, Dr. Tamara Manasoff, and this is She's Not Done Yet, Real. raw talk about love, loss, sex, dating, and money, and the courage it takes to rebuild your life after gray divorce. Okay, sisters, let's get started. Welcome to She's Not Done yet? I'm so excited to have you here with us today. She's not done yet. Is real raw talk about love, loss, sex, dating, money, and the courage
• 1:13
  that it takes to rebuild your life after gray divorce. And I'm so excited to have Kristen Kofed here joining me today. Kristen is a licensed therapist as well as a certified divorce coach. She is the founder of Glass Waters Counseling. And full disclosure, Kristen is my sister-in-law, and she is the first person I called when I experienced the beginning of my gray divorce, and she has been here with me the entire time that I was recovering, and so I am so thrilled to have you here, Chris. And thank you so much for being here for
• 1:55
  Kristen Kofoed: us. Well, thanks for having me. I'm super excited about everything you're doing here.
• 1:59
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Thank you so much. Both of us have had lived experience, as you probably or may or may or may not know. Before we jump in, and I started asking you questions that a lot of women have actually sent me ahead of time. So I'm really excited that you're actually going to address some of these things that are really on the forefront of people's minds. I just wanted to say a little bit about gray divorce because some people haven't heard that definition before. It's divorce after 50. What's really amazing is that it's doubled the rate of divorce. If gray divorce has doubled
• 2:29
  since 1990, the rate has tripled for 65 and older, and the numbers are going up. One in four divorces in the U.S. now involves couples over 50. I mean, it's really shocking. Just it's like this whole trend. It's becoming a quiet epidemic. Way too many women are facing alone. I know that I was I was totally feeling alone, and I and there was so much shame and embarrassment. And we're going to talk about all of that today, really because we're creating this sisterhood, and the whole point of this and coming together in this platform is so that women don't feel alone when they're going through
• 3:07
  something like this as well. So you know, it would be really helpful, Kristen. I know we were talking earlier. Is I think it'd be helpful if you shared a bit about your own experience before we dive into you as the therapist and the divorce coach perspectives. That if you could talk just personally about what you went through, just because I think it's important for other women to know that you've been there, done that, and that you have come out on the other side, and now you've dedicated your life to helping women through this process.
• 3:34
  Kristen Kofoed: Yes, happy to. So I've been divorced twice, so both experiences were nightmares in and of themselves in different ways. I would I'll address the second divorce that I had. I was a single mom suddenly. I had a baby that was she was about 18 months old or so. The night that I realized that it was over, he left me on my birthday actually, and he went to go meet his mistress in a different in Las Vegas, actually. So, I didn't obviously know all of this was happening at the time, but he left me and my baby at the house, and I had really no idea what was happening or what was to
• 4:13
  come. And I remember that night. I remember what I was wearing. I remember this was 18 years ago now. Obviously, not a great divorce, but a lot of the principles remain the same. I was in my green tie-dye shirt, no bra, hadn't brushed my teeth for days. I don't think at that point because I was just an absolute mess, knowing kind of what was coming or being, you know, really being afraid of what was to come and not knowing what that would look like. I remember she was upstairs asleep in in her crib, and I was standing in my living room in this beautiful giant house, looking at all of the
• 4:45
  pictures and the knickknacks and all the things. I wondered, what in the hell am I going to do with all of this stuff? And where does it go? And the life that I had imagined was suddenly going to be coming to an end. And then I hear a my doorbell ring, and. And I go to my door, and it is one of my best friends. She had brought about 15 women, some of whom I had never even met or knew, to my door just to support me. Showed up with food, wine, everything a person needs during that time, and I remember literally falling to my knees and just crying. It makes me emotional thinking about it. Still,
• 5:25
  I knew in that moment I was going to be okay because of the foundation that I had in all of these women that I didn't even know was there. They are the ones that got me through this, and they helped me with my child. They helped me. Those all those women are are my daughter's aunts at this point too. We have we made a we had a village around me, and they are the ones that were responsible for that. So that is the only way that I knew I was going to get through that, and that is what happened for me. So that's how it all began for me, and that's when I decided, once I began healing, which
• 5:59
  took some time, that I was going to help people that that were going through this.
• 6:04
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: I'm so glad you shared your story because I think you know those of us who have gone through it ourselves are nodding our heads, and I love that you bring in that you had your sister showing up at your front door because honestly, like I think I went the opposite direction in terms of just feeling so embarrassed and shamed and terrified all at once that I felt like I just shut down, and so I think it's really important to hear what that that kind of surrounding yourself with other women who can help you, you know, really get through all of the different aspects of it
• 6:36
  is so important. What what do you suggest to women who are going through? For me, I felt like I couldn't even like make a decision. Like I and I know you were standing there just looking around your house, and then the doorbell rang. For me, no doorbell rang. Yeah, and I isolated because I was I'm so accustomed to trying to figure everything out myself.
• 6:56
  Kristen Kofoed: I remember, and so I know you do. And
• 6:59
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: I all too well, I know, and so I went so far inward that I couldn't. I felt like I was like stuck in um this like I can't even explain it. It's like this, you know, your brain doesn't work. I felt like I was like I couldn't hear, I couldn't see. It was like this incredible thing when you're going through extreme grief and terror all at the same time. So how do you when women come to you now in this, in the state that I was, what is the first thing that you say to them? How do you? What kind of? What can they do to help themselves in that state?
• 7:31
  Kristen Kofoed: The first thing I would say is, don't fight it, feel it. You have to feel it. You have to grieve it. It is not something that you will ever be able to avoid. And if you do try to avoid it, it's going to come back at you at you later, and it's going to be much worse. So feel it and know that it's okay. You're okay to feel that grief and to suffer right now. You you may not be able to reach out to people during that time. You may be so down. You one of the things I remember too very clearly is feeling like my limbs were not connected to my body, and it's easy for me to say, "Get up
• 8:03
  out of bed and go do your thing," and and you know make sure that you are making checklists and start all this. I can say that, but the truth is, as I was in the fetal position for about a month after I found out what was going on, and I realized that my life had changed completely, and I remember my cute little mom at that time, crawling in bed with me in my in my 30s and almost 40, and literally spooning me because she was so afraid of how I was going to recover from this. She her love and her kindness is really what helped me get through that. But I couldn't even accept that. It was just the
• 8:36
  most terrifying experience of my life, and and I was grieving so hard, but you don't realize that's what it is at the time. You don't realize you're grieving. You realize it's like a death has just occurred, but you don't understand it because the person is still alive and they're right there, and they've and they have moved on, and you're still sitting there reeling at the what the hell just happened. So that's what I would say. You got to feel it. You got to go through it, and one step at a time, you will start coming out of it with the right resources. But experience it as it is, and
• 9:11
  that's okay.
• 9:12
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, I love that, and because it's so true. And also, you know, the kind of the chatter that goes on on our brain, like, what's wrong with me? You know, why can't I get over it. It's taking too long. I think a lot of women were asking me, like, how long is this going to take? You know, because it it took me five years, and I truly believe that the time would have been cut probably in half if I had surrounded myself with a community of women to talk through these things, and you know, even just just for to not be so isolated and alone, and but you're right. It's like,
• 9:44
  and it's like also with great divorce. You know, there's a whole loss of identity because you had like my hat. I had the house that I had worked my whole life to get. I had my family dinners. You know, all the family activities. Like you were saying, you were looking at the pictures on the walls. Like. I had wanted that kitchen table for a decade, and I finally got it, you know. And then now nobody's even home anymore to sit at it. Like I literally was standing; gives me chills, makes me want to cry too, because I literally was standing there in my empty house, just looking around, not
• 10:14
  even knowing what to do. Like I just, it was feeling so lost. And so I think identity is so important too. You got the actual practical realities, which I know you're going to talk about too. Like, how do I find a job? How do I support myself? Can I keep the house? Like all these things, which we're going to talk about in a few minutes. But it's also that you didn't just lose your your life as you knew it in terms of your family. But you also, and even if you didn't have kids, you still had your couple structure and the way that you spent time together and all those things, but you also for
• 10:44
  me I just felt like I lost my dream of my family. I lost my role as a wife, and I mean, I was still a mother, but it was just like the whole family dynamic just was like instantly gone in one moment when he walked out that door.
• 10:58
  Kristen Kofoed: Yeah,
• 10:59
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: and talk about that if you will, because I know that you work with a lot of people now. Like, how do you help them when they're dealing with this? Not just loss of their family, but the loss of really of your. It's a loss of yourself. It feels that way. Yeah,
• 11:12
  Kristen Kofoed: yeah, it does. I mean, you have to recreate your life. That's no small feat. I mean, really, you're trying to. You know, you your whole life has been surrounded with what the family dinners and what you're going to cook for the family, and going to the grocery store and taking your kids all over the place, and and your partner helping out, and you knowing that you're going to come home to that person every day, and and your whole home is surrounded with people that you have created. You've created this dynamic for many years. Most of the time, when you're talking about
• 11:41
  gray divorce, I mean, we're talking sometimes 35 years, maybe more. As we get older, it is no small thing. So, yeah, you have to recreate that, but it takes time to do that. I would say, calm down. Let that let this simmer. Let this let yourself figure out what's going on. Who you want to be? That's going to come later. You have to figure out who you are right now with all of this happening.
• 12:05
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, and also like, how am I going to survive? I think the survival piece of it comes in really hard and fast at the beginning, and then I remember for it felt like ever like years I'd write in my journal like what do I want, and I could never answer the question.
• 12:20
  Unknown: Yeah,
• 12:20
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: couldn't. I was like, why can't I answer this basic question? Like, what do I want? Because it was all about you know really about the um the the the practicality. So let's talk about the practical practicality. Yeah. Like what? Okay, you find out your spouse leaves you after. I mean, then even the book that just came out, Strangers, just like you, you literally have your life for decades, and your spouse walks out. It's like, what? How do you support yourself? What are some options for people? What What do you suggest is like? Are the first steps that you take?
• 12:53
  Kristen Kofoed: Access your skills, whatever skills you have. You may you may be have been a homemaker for 30 years. That's a skill. Don't limit yourself with people. You know, a lot of women I work with haven't had a career. They've been at home. They haven't had an education to support them. So that's what we talk about when I work with these women: is what are the next steps for you? Yes, this is the this has been your reality, but now we're going to figure out what to access. How do we access the skills that you do have, and how do we put those into a resume? I've coached women on putting
• 13:25
  resumes together and accessing the things that they didn't think were big deals, but they're huge. The organization of a home and kids and all of that is no small thing. So there are, you know, there are women that have that situation, and there are women that have had certifications that they've let lapse. I've had a lot of that experience, so they've given up their careers for their families, or they've you know given up their career so their spouse could could have a higher paying career, for example. So I work with okay, how do we get recertified? Is there a way to do that? Just finding out
• 13:53
  what steps are even available to you. I've had women do career counseling type of stuff to figure out what their interests might be based on these you know, simple free exams that are on Google, you just you can Google it and find out kind of what your interests are. Because, like you said, we don't even know what our interests are. Our whole life has been around what are our kids' interests, what what's our interests as a couple, and now you have to figure out, okay, what would I be good at? What are my options? Is there money for an education? If there is, how much money? What's
• 14:21
  realistic for me to pay for for to get certified in something? There's a lot of steps that we can go through to kind of figure out what that might look like for you and how to support yourself. Start putting some money aside if you can. I don't care if it's $10 a day or $10 a month, whatever you can, whatever you can set aside. Just start start putting stuff stuff aside in a separate account or cash or whatever, just start taking things that you can without making it super obvious. But you want to make sure that you're. I mean, self-preservation is enormous in this situation. Survival is
• 14:53
  key, right? And that's going to be our very first thing that we're thinking about: is how do I survive this? Who's going to pay the bills? Who's going to help me with my kids? Who's going to help me drive the kids when he's off? You know, he's left in the the state, or he's with somebody else, or whatever happened to your marriage. There's a lot of practical things that you're going to have to start thinking about, and that's where you start accessing to the women in your life or the people in your life if you have those. So that's just yeah a start.
• 15:19
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, and I think it's great too because I think sometimes when you are thinking about when you're in such grief, it's like the worst time to be making major decisions. At least for me, I found like I made some major decisions, like letting go of my home, because I was like, I don't want any of those memories. I wasn't thinking about the financial piece.
• 15:38
  Unknown: Yeah,
• 15:38
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: I was thinking I got to get out of here. You know?
• 15:41
  Kristen Kofoed: Oh yeah.
• 15:42
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: So it's like I think what you're talking about is so important because if you actually start writing down all of these different steps, then you can wrap your brain maybe around only one thing at a time. And by the way, I just talked about that in one of my articles about not having my own bank account for 38 years. And so I'm so glad you said that because it just seems so basic. Like now I'm just thinking, my God, like why didn't I do that? You know, it just never. But I always felt like then I wouldn't wasn't being a true partner if I had my own account. That was kind
• 16:12
  of the mindset. Of course, and I wanted to I wanted to show up as like I was all in. You know, what do you say to women who are feeling like shame around that, or like, or that they didn't they didn't prepare themselves at all. So like, you know, all of a sudden he walks out the door and like literally don't even know like what was how to. I mean, we don't do checks anymore, but more like you know what the balance is in the bank account, or not even the passwords for the bank account, or you know, like having none of that information.
• 16:40
  Kristen Kofoed: Yeah, I mean, shame doesn't serve you. Guilt doesn't serve you. Embarrassment doesn't serve you. It was your path at the time, so let that go because that just stops you from moving forward. So that's what I would say to shame. I think I feel that way about shame and and every aspect of everybody's lives. It doesn't do you any good to to look back. Now we just have to look forward as to what are the next steps, and that is starting to get the information, do the research. But again, you're in the beginning of all of this. The depression is real. the The grief is real.
• 17:14
  So thinking about having to go through all of that is almost impossible for a lot of people in the beginning stages of divorce. So that's when you start doing checklists, one item at a time, things that you can accomplish one day at a time, one moment at a time. A lot of times, and you remember Tamara when you were going through this initially, it was literally moment to moment. You would call me one moment, and you would be like, "I'm doing better. I'm. I think I'm. I think I'm moving." And then about three minutes later, oh, you know, just crying and just and not being able to manage
• 17:44
  those emotions up and down, fear and excitement and fear and excitement. It was just you were just all over the place. I know we had to work on visualization to try to get to pull you out of that, and often it didn't work. You just still went right back to awareness. Stubborn,
• 18:00
  you you were stubborn, but you were you were just absolutely heartbroken. I I know you were just heartbroken for your family, for your girls, for my beautiful nieces. For there was no way to pull you out of it other than just to be there and listen to it. And that sometimes is all you need is just somebody to hear it, not try to fix it, just hear
• 18:18
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: it. Yeah, and that you were amazing at that because I think that was basically all I could do is just talk to you, and you you were such a you are such a good listener. And I think I think for a lot of people, you know, they may may not have someone in their lives who can do that. So to definitely reach out for support, don't do what I did. I mean, thankfully I had Kristen, but I also just all it took me so long to heal just because I just I was trying to figure it all out. Let's talk about the difference between gray divorce because you experienced divorce when
• 18:50
  you were in your early 40s, I think you said, and now we're in gray divorce. Like, what do you see now that you're working with people going through gray divorce? Like, what do you see as the kind of those biggest big differences?
• 19:01
  Kristen Kofoed: I mean, when you're in your 50s, things are different, right? Your body's different. You're you have lines and wrinkles and fat that you never even knew you was possible. So that's that's a huge piece of you know the change. And you're thinking, oh my god, I have to date now. Like this is it's a really scary reality. Also, when you're in your 50s, you're much more enmeshed in your marriage. Usually, you know, if you're usually married for 30 years, at that point, you know, when you're married for 510, 15 years, it's a little easier to to move forward. You're not as
• 19:31
  intertwined, and your kids maybe you may have no kids, or you may have kids that are that are you know young enough to not fully feel the impact of it. You had kids that were teenagers, and they knew and felt every ounce of what was going on. Versus a two, three-year-old may not have any idea what's happening. So, you know, there's differences with that situation with your kids. Those who don't have kids, same kind of thing. Everything is wrapped up. Usually, the the one of the spouses is. Complete control of the finances, for example, and for 30 years not having a clue, they've just taken
• 20:05
  care of it, and you trusted them, and then suddenly you realize you shouldn't have trusted them. But oh well, this is where we're at now. So now what do we do about it? So there's all all kinds of differences, some obvious, some not so obvious, but having to face the idea of potentially dating again. Should you want to get remarried again, a lot of people want to be married and they love being married and they wanted to keep doing that. Then there's women that don't, like me, for example. I'm never doing it again. So thank you. Done that. I'm good. You know, there's everybody's a little bit
• 20:37
  a little bit different in that way, and it may be from trauma from the divorce that you just don't want to do it, or it may be just that you're sick of having to take care of somebody else, and all the expectations that that are involved with marriage. There's so many different different things that can happen, but that's the main difference I think between the the enmeshment with your life as as you get older.
• 20:58
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: You know, it's interesting that you bring this up too because one of the things that we talked about identity and losing your identity and and wanting to help people rebuild their identity. But I think what also is missed is that as you're working your way through this, that you get to be whoever you want. I think that's the thing that really became clear for me this year. It's taken that long, yeah. That's kind of an amazing experience when you get to that point when you we've been in such grief that you can't even function to figuring out the steps, the like all those
• 21:31
  micro steps to and healing. Like I I turn to a lot of different things like meditation and sound healing, and I mean I was grasping honestly anything that would make me feel better, and I wasn't sleeping, and all the things, and and then to move your way through this process, and then suddenly come out the other end and think, wait a minute, what I can do anything and be anyone that I want to be, it is like the most incredible experience when you get to that point. But but how do you work with people? Because if you had told me that tomorrow things are going to get so much better for you,
• 22:09
  Kristen Kofoed: yeah,
• 22:09
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: and you're going to be so amazing and happy, and I would have been so honestly, I'd be really pissed,
• 22:15
  Kristen Kofoed: yeah,
• 22:15
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: because I would feel like you did not understand how traumatized I was. So how do you like? I know that it's a big thing. People ask me all the time. Well, how long is this going to take? And I can't answer that question. And it's a because it's different for everyone, right? Depends on also if you have a circle of friends that show up at your front door, you know, take helping you or not. But like, how do you how do you really give people hope along the way without it being like kind of the there's always other fish in the sea kind of a concept you know where people
• 22:49
  are yeah are telling you all the wrong things
• 22:51
  Kristen Kofoed: yeah I hate when people do that so stupid you know I think that the the the there's a lot of people that are really just wanting to fix it because they don't know what to do they're scared they're scared for for you. They're scared that that makes them afraid of their own lives and the potential for that to happen to them. So people don't want to deal with it. So they they throw that crap out there. Just I'll get over it. You know you're you're fine. What's taking you so long to get through this? Like be happy, smile. That kind of that's just a bunch of crap, right? We know
• 23:20
  that that's a bunch of crap, and if you remember tomorrow, when I'm sure you remember, but it's like yesterday. But when we were going through this with you, you kept saying to me every time we got on the phone, "I'm sure you're so sick of hearing this. I'm sure you're so tired of hearing this." That is the difference between somebody who is is doing this for a living and trying to and exhausting your friendships and your family relationships, they are not qualified, or nor do they have the skill set to deal with this. They do not. They cannot withstand all of the grief. They cannot. They
• 23:53
  don't know what to do with that. So, be just be watchful around who you are using for that support. Because I I remember I had friends that were all my friends are wonderful, but some of them had no idea how to handle me. I was talking about it freaking constantly. I couldn't stop. I was ruminating just like you were. All you do is ruminate, ruminate. You want to talk about it? You cannot get it off your mind. It's it's all encompassing and consuming. So the people that I was choosing to talk to about it were exhausted, absolutely exhausted by me, and it really impacted my friendships quite a
• 24:27
  bit during that time. Until later, they a few of them went through the same exact thing, which I did not do not wish upon anybody, but it did happen, and that is when I got the I'm so sorry I was not there the way you needed me to be. So choose the people that you're you're using for support. That's going to be a big thing, but also just knowing that your time is your time and your grief is your grief, and it is an individual and personal experience, and you cannot compare it to other people because your experience was different. Tomorrow for you, it was a huge shock. It was a. Boom! After 30
• 25:01
  some years, just suddenly it was over, and you had no idea. You were completely jarred out of out of all that you thought was reality at that time. So that is one way. Then there's the slow burn, right? The relationships that have been in hell for 20 years or 10 years or whatever, and there might be verbal abuse. There might be all kinds of things that you're kind of excited to get out of, but you just didn't know how. And then this person just pops in and gives you the gift of "I want a divorce," and that might be a very different recovery, right? You at that point, you're not looking at
• 25:31
  the emotional healing as much as you are the financial outcome of that. Like what's that's what that's going to look like. So everybody is different, but there is a time. It took me five years. My first marriage. It took me three years. My second marriage, and I wasn't married as long the second time. And I was didn't really like him that much, honestly, during that during that time. So I wasn't reeling. I wasn't reeling from him being gone. I was reeling from the dream being gone. That's what I, you know. And then the outcome aftermath of you know knowing that I was he was having an
• 26:03
  affair, and I was a dumbass that didn't had had no idea that it was even happening right right under my nose. I know, but you're
• 26:10
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: not a dumbass because that's happened to so many of us. And that's what you feel like. It's so common. I knew you're sitting there going, I same. You sit there and just think, how did I not know? Like all these, and then you start instead of you start turning it against your own self. You know, like you're gaslighting yourself, saying, "I'm so stupid." You know, all these things. You know, you brought up a really interesting point, and let me just say this, Alexandra. Hey, Alex. She said it's about you can have new dreams without a man and financial means. I love that.
• 26:39
  That you suddenly realize, okay, wait a minute. I am good. I can do this. Yes. And also, I kind of find it exciting, right? Because you can you can really look at things from a different angle. But before we move on to that, we're mostly talking about when our significant other walks out the door. But I also know that there are a lot of women who are in emotionally abusive relationships, narcissistic relationships, even physically abusive relationships, and they stay because of potentially economic fear, especially if they've got kids and other reasons that you know that I don't even
• 27:18
  know. The question I have for you is like, how do you help women who are like that are? It would be so much better for them, and they know it that to leave to be the one to leave, but they stay and they take all this abuse because honestly, like I also felt like I'm looking back, I see some of those traits in my relationship as well, and I'm like, I didn't even know that that was a thing, you know, in terms of like narcissism and things like this. And I know that you say a lot of your clients are dealing with narcissism, and and that you're teaching different ways to deal with that. So
• 27:55
  that's one question: is how do you deal with narcissists? But let's wait on that. And the first question is though, if you haven't left, if you don't have if you know you should leave but you're staying in this abusive relationship what do you Kristen suggest that people do
• 28:08
  Kristen Kofoed: well I had I had a really really amazing woman that I worked with she was a Muslim woman and she you know she was in a very trapped abusive situation no education hadn't worked for 30 years or something at that point. Had two young kids. She needed out, and I mean, this was a this was a really uncomfortable life situation at home, and and the kids were everybody was uncomfortable. And I worked with her for two years actually, and we worked very quietly and discreetly on how to get her a skill and how to get her a bank account, and I walked her through every step. She literally
• 28:48
  did not know how to do anything by herself. She didn't even know how to take her kids to the park by herself. She didn't know how to. She never went to the grocery store alone. She did. This was all brand brand new stuff. So she came to me and wanted the to learn power, and so I started teaching her about having some personal power and what does that look like and how do we start building that slowly for yourself, and we did it very systematically and it took time, but two years later, she's out. She was a cert. She got certified and in it with a skill. She saved enough money for the
• 29:21
  retainer for the attorney. I sat with her during all of the attorney calls to pick the right one for her and helped her with all the questions that she needed to ask the attorney to stay focused during the consultation. We, I mean, we took it step by step by step by step, and she needed absolute babying through the entire thing, which I was happy to do. But that's what you need. You need somebody that's going to walk you through that and find, identify what you want, what kind of skills you have, and how we're going to protect you going forward too. So the leaving piece is also
• 29:51
  something that you have to be concerned about and developing safety plans around that. So yeah, if you don't have a safety plan and you and you fear retaliation from. The person that you're with, that's a responsibility of a lot of people around you to make sure that you're protected. You don't just up and leave. There are conversations that that are systematic and that are customized in order to be able to get your needs met in the situation and make sure that you're safe. That's going to be a huge piece of safety first and foremost. But preparing for the divorce that you want sooner, but
• 30:23
  it it takes moments. Gathering all your documentation, putting those in a separate place, making sure you've got copies of everything when they're off at work or whatever.
• 30:31
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah,
• 30:31
  Kristen Kofoed: packing packing an emergency bag and putting it in your trunk of your car and leaving it there. That those are lots of different things that that you can do to get started. But it's really if you if you're in the marriage and you have the time to start thinking about what you want for your future and how you're going to do this, then that is that that's a good place to be actually because you have the time to start focusing on those things when they're away. So you start looking at career counseling, taking some private certifications in a discreet way if possible. If
• 31:01
  not, figuring what you can do right now with what you have, and then working on that and building that, and just trying to find little things. I don't care if it's working at Starbucks, anything that you can to start just kind of moving in the direction of feeling like you're contributing and you can take care of yourself.
• 31:17
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: I love that, and I love that you were able to give a very specific example of this woman and how you helped her, and then now let's switch gears because I know that you talked about you and I've actually talked about this quite a bit about narcissism, and we could probably do an entire conversation about that. But I I do I do find it really interesting that you were helping women who are dealing with narcissists in their life, in in their spouses? Because I know there's a lot of control that goes on, and so maybe you can just give a again, just say like a for those who
• 31:51
  don't know, like a a quick definition of what a narcissist is, and then what some of the kind of those traps that people get into, and that that are basically unhealthy during a during a marriage.
• 32:06
  Kristen Kofoed: You'll you can identify a lot of narcissistic behaviors with, for example, people that are constantly right. They have to be right all the time. They win. They win every argument. It doesn't matter what it is. They are constantly in charge. They've surrounded themselves with power. All the all in every direction of your life. There's nothing that you can say. There's everything that that happens is for their benefit, and they talk about everything from how it benefits them. So you you start to identify like little behaviors like that. I work with women, and there's actually
• 32:39
  I have so many clients that have this exact same situation, it's insane. I mean, you just don't even realize how common it is. But the the thing I teach is about language and messaging. That if you can customize and use your words to get your needs met, it's always about pumping the other person up, whether you like it or not. It's not fun. I know it's a game you have to play sometimes, but you have to pump the other person up to get what you need. That is key. It's all about the language. Like for example, yeah, I know you know the kids just think you're the best dad, and I'm sure that you
• 33:14
  would never want them to suffer because you love them so much and they look up to you so much. And because of that, I'm sure that you would want me to have enough money to be able to support their private school. And the and he and the the husband says, "Well, of course I love my kids, and I know I'm their hero, and I'm going to make sure that that's taken care of, so I look good." And it's about their image, how they look to everybody else. That is the key, and then that, and you play into that to get your needs met. You have to do that, and a lot of people don't want to do it. And I
• 33:47
  get it; you don't want to do it, but you have to do it. I had to do it for years to make sure my kid was taken care of.
• 33:53
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, that's so interesting. And and how does that play into gray divorce? You know, when you're you're dealing with a narcissist, and you know that you know he's left, and you still have to do all the negotiating for the terms of the divorce and all these things. I mean, this may be more of a legal question, but I do find it interesting that it's like negotiating the terms of a divorce with a narcissist. I could see would be so complicated.
• 34:18
  Kristen Kofoed: It can be if you're not willing to play the game and use the language that you need to, but if if I've watched women change their language and see different results that they haven't ever tried because they didn't even know what they were dealing with, a lot of people most of the time people don't even know that they're in a narcissistic relationship. They have no idea until afterwards, and they can reflect and go, "Oh my God, what I was gaslit for my entire life, and I had no idea it was happening. So now they have that perspective to look back. But when you're in it,
• 34:47
  you don't see it. That's just been your life. So you just don't even see that it's happening. So once you are able to get some perspective, thankfully, mediators, for example, and judges are. Very adept at dealing with narcissists, and they they tailor a lot of the conversations around that. Especially if you warn them in advance that this is what you're looking at here. So please please use your skill set to to kind of navigate this conversation. So I also get my needs met. I want to be fair, but I also don't want to be you know I don't want to be dumped on either here. So just working
• 35:20
  with the right kind of people, talking to attorneys that are experts in this, it is a thing. There are actual expert attorneys that deal with narcissists and mediators and judges. So seek that stuff out and get the support that you need around that.
• 35:35
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, I love that. Thank you, Kristen. Let's talk about dating and sex after great divorce, let's please let's please talk about that. That's let's please talk about that, which is which much more interesting than talking about narcissism at this moment. I think a lot of women, like I actually have friends who have because I've just started dating, and I have a lot of friends who are just like I can't even imagine going out ever again and starting over, or going on dating apps, or having someone see my 60-year-old body. There's so many things that we are worried about. How
• 36:12
  do you recommend that people, when they're considering dating or are dating, like what is your approach?
• 36:21
  Kristen Kofoed: It's this is a this is such an interesting one because you know women in their 50s and 60s are they kind of grapple with two different things. One is this I don't give a shit anymore kind of what you think about me kind of place, and this other piece of I'm invisible and the world doesn't see me anymore. And trying to figure out where you lie in the middle of all of that and using the I don't give a shit thing can really be helpful in your confidence because if you can access that piece, that is going to be way more attractive than this piece of I don't look so good, and you
• 36:51
  know that kind of like trying to like really focusing on the new wrinkles and the new fat and the new cellulite and all the stuff that we love about ourselves, like that you know we're we're letting go of that and trying to access that piece that is attractive and that is I don't care what you think I have been there I have done that I have been tortured for years and years and years I'm not doing it anymore I'm not going to tolerate the BS I'm not going to go through any of that that piece of you is where the strength and the beauty is so access that and forget about everything else.
• 37:24
  Easier said than done, but I know
• 37:26
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: it's easier said than done. I know, but it is true. I mean, I found that like I felt invisible for the last five years, and then when I started to go, this is my life. I I get to do anything I want, and I started to. I think I was literally projecting just like a whole different energy.
• 37:44
  Kristen Kofoed: Yeah.
• 37:44
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: And so once that happened, all of a sudden, I felt like I was being seen again. But it took me being solid with myself.
• 37:52
  Kristen Kofoed: Absolutely.
• 37:53
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: And that's what I think is so important: is that it's not just all about the external, like how can we be attractive to, so that we can attract a man or a woman, whoever we want to attract, but it's more about being so like confident and solid yourself that suddenly you become not just your. It's like your energy changes, and you yeah you you're more attractive to others. I mean, have you seen that?
• 38:18
  Kristen Kofoed: Oh my God, yes. I mean, this is even stuff. This is not just for obviously women in their 50s and 60s. This is for my 18-year-old daughter. This is what I teach my girls: is the energy that you put out there is what people are gravitating to. It's not. It's not the the color of your hair or your eyes or your your butt. That's not what people are gravitating to. They're gravitating to your life energy and your life force, and that is what is so attractive to people. Is it's not again we all come in different shapes and sizes. Just enjoy the fact that you have a body at all. And
• 38:51
  once you focus on that, and you know, and you are grat, you have gratitude for that, and you practice and preach that to yourself every single day. That I am so grateful to be alive and to have this body, once you start doing that and really internalizing that and finally feeling the smile from the inside, that's going to start showing on the outside, which is exactly what happened with you. And I saw it unfold like right in front of my eyes. It was just, it was like a sudden like shift, and you were just alive again. It was a beautiful thing to watch, but it does, it does take time.
• 39:21
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, it does. I think one of the things that I I was practicing is Jeffrey Allen's meditation, where it was really when you're going through so much grief and and despair, I realized I wasn't seeing outside of my. I could. I don't. I know this may sound odd, but I literally would be walking and not seeing because my energy was turned so like inward, but then one of the first things he would say is, "I want to actually see outside through your eyes, even though you're seeing." It's like take that energy and see. And once I started to project that energy and practice
• 39:55
  playing with my energy, and then then walking down outside and saying, "Okay, let me see if.". I can connect with people's eyes. Okay, what happens if I smile at them? Are they going to smile back? And all of that started happening. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's all energy. Like it's just really what you just said. It's like it's and it's taking some practicing that as well, right? Yeah. And it's that's hard to do when you're going through all of the grief that we've been talking about and all the steps and all the things. But I think it is also hopeful to know that there is a path forward,
• 40:24
  there is a way forward, and that's what you're talking about. And what I love about you is that people can drop in wherever they are in the process because you've now seen it all for so long, and helps people at all different stages of where they are in the in their divorce and recovery and healing process.
• 40:41
  Kristen Kofoed: Well, and I think one thing to remember too is that sometimes the biggest fight is with yourself. And I remember, I remember, and I taught you this. Remember when you're walking, when you're walking, I kept, I was like punching the air in front of me because I was just trying to fight the grief that was just, it was so consuming, and that's all I could think about. And I was crying all the time, and angry all the time, and and terrified all the time. So I would I would literally be punching the air, and I looked like a complete nutball. But I was I was punching the air, walking,
• 41:12
  and I would do that every day so I could push this away from myself, so I could I could wake up again, and it was really helpful. It got got a lot of my aggression in my in my all the stuff that was happening inside of me out in front of me, so I could deal with it. If it was if it's all in here, you can't really deal with it, and you can't look at it. Once you get it out on paper or out in front of you, it's much easier to to deal with.
• 41:37
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah, it's so true. Okay, before we wrap this up. What is one piece of advice, Kristen, that you'd give to a woman who's really like in the thick of it, like I was, that's really in the thick of gray divorce right now, and maybe she's been told it's over, and she's just doing what we did, walking around the house, just totally confused about what's going on. And what is one piece of advice for her.
• 42:02
  Kristen Kofoed: I would say just know you don't have to be alone.
• 42:04
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Yeah,
• 42:05
  Kristen Kofoed: you do not have to do this alone. Find your people. That is that's key.
• 42:12
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: That's beautiful, Kristen. Thank you so much for being here for all of us at She's Not Done Yet, and this is what this is all about. It's the sisterhood to bring us all together to talk about really these tough topics and also the exciting ones and everything in between. So thank you so much for being here with us today, and thank you all who joined in, and for all of you who are going to be watching the replay. You can I'm going to put into the show notes underneath this. I'll put a way to contact Kristen and also how to join the sisterhood. And thank you all for being
• 42:47
  here with us today. Lots of love. Take good care.
• 42:51
  Kristen Kofoed: Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much for having me. All right, bye bye.
• 42:55
  Dr. Tamara Monosoff: Thanks, Kristen. Bye.