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'Psychopath' PhD Student Murders Friend's Baby Boy · Murder Files Unsealed

0:00
Speaker 1: Imagine just handing your six-week-old baby over to your absolute
0:04
Speaker 1: best friend.
0:05
Speaker 2: Right.
0:05
Speaker 1: Like, not just a casual acquaintance you see at a
0:07
Speaker 1: coffee shop, but your maid of honor. The person who
0:10
Speaker 1: literally stood next to you at your wedding.
0:13
Speaker 3: The ultimate trusted person.
0:15
Speaker 1: Exactly. A woman who you know is currently dedicating her
0:18
Speaker 1: entire life to studying the human mind as a psychology
0:20
Speaker 1: PhD student.
0:21
Speaker 3: Which just adds this massive layer of assumed empathy, right? Totally.
0:26
Speaker 1: I mean, you trust her implicitly. Your brain doesn't even
0:29
Speaker 1: register a blip of hesitation. So you hand her your child.
0:33
Speaker 1: You leave the house to handle an emergency. And you
0:36
Speaker 1: just expect everything to be perfectly fine.
0:38
Speaker 3: Because why wouldn't it be? Right.
0:39
Speaker 1: But then imagine returning to find that your baby has
0:43
Speaker 1: been murdered. And this person, this person you trusted with
0:48
Speaker 1: your entire life is the one who did it.
0:49
Speaker 3: It's just it is the complete annihilation of like the
0:53
Speaker 3: most fundamental social contract we have as human beings.
0:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
0:56
Speaker 3: It strips away literally every illusion of safety that we
0:59
Speaker 3: operate under on a daily basis.
1:00
Speaker 1: And that is exactly what we are tearing apart today.
1:04
Speaker 1: We are doing a deep dive into the concept of
1:06
Speaker 1: trust itself. And just a fair warning to you listening,
1:10
Speaker 1: this is going into some incredibly dark territory today.
1:13
Speaker 3: Very dark.
1:14
Speaker 1: But, I mean, it's a vital exploration into how a
1:17
Speaker 1: seemingly perfect model citizen can hide a monstrous reality right
1:22
Speaker 1: out in the open.
1:23
Speaker 3: Unseen in plain sight.
1:25
Speaker 1: Exactly. So our sources today, they're drawn from some really
1:29
Speaker 1: rigorous investigative reporting, specifically from Dana Kennedy of the Daily
1:33
Speaker 1: Mail and the team at CrimeFix.
1:35
Speaker 3: Both did incredible work on this.
1:37
Speaker 1: They really did. And we're also looking at police affidavits.
1:40
Speaker 1: We're examining these just harrowing courtroom victim impact statements. And
1:46
Speaker 1: we are going to use all of this to try
1:47
Speaker 1: and understand a case that defies basic human logic.
1:52
Speaker 3: And, you know, as we unpack the timeline and the
1:54
Speaker 3: psychology here, We really have to look closely at the
1:57
Speaker 3: extreme fragility of our social heuristics.
2:00
Speaker 1: Right.
2:00
Speaker 3: Because we walk through life making these massive instantaneous assumptions
2:04
Speaker 3: about the people around us. I mean, we have to
2:07
Speaker 3: just to function.
2:07
Speaker 1: Just to get through the day.
2:09
Speaker 3: Exactly. So I want us to look at how those
2:11
Speaker 3: assumptions are weaponized and ultimately how the justice system attempts
2:15
Speaker 3: to balance the demand for this severe maximum punishment with
2:19
Speaker 3: the very real just paralyzing trauma of the surviving victims. Okay.
2:25
Speaker 1: Let's unpack this. Because usually I'm super enthusiastic about diving
2:29
Speaker 1: into human behavior or complex legal systems. But the discovery
2:35
Speaker 1: today is heavy.
2:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a tough one.
2:38
Speaker 1: It really is. We are looking at a tragedy that
2:40
Speaker 1: forces us to examine the darkest corners of the human psyche.
2:44
Speaker 1: So the person at the center of this whole thing
2:47
Speaker 1: is Nicole Verzi. Right. She is a 32-year-old PhD student
2:51
Speaker 1: in psychology, originally from New York City, but Studying down
2:54
Speaker 1: in San Diego. But it's really her relationship with the
2:57
Speaker 1: victims that makes this so deeply destabilizing.
3:01
Speaker 3: That's the core of it.
3:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. She was the best friend of Savannah Roberts. She
3:06
Speaker 1: was her maid of honor. She was, for all intents
3:09
Speaker 1: and purposes, considered implicit family.
3:12
Speaker 3: And we really need to pause on that title for
3:14
Speaker 3: a moment. Because maid of honor, it carries immense anthropological
3:19
Speaker 3: and psychological weight.
3:20
Speaker 1: Oh, for sure.
3:21
Speaker 3: It's not just... you know, a ceremonial role or someone
3:25
Speaker 3: who plans a party. But, you know, historically and culturally,
3:29
Speaker 3: it is a declaration of ultimate female allegiance.
3:33
Speaker 1: I like that phrase, ultimate female allegiance.
3:36
Speaker 2: Right.
3:37
Speaker 3: Because, I mean, it communicates to the entire world, like,
3:39
Speaker 3: this is the person I trust most to stand beside
3:43
Speaker 3: me during one of the most vulnerable and, like, massive
3:47
Speaker 3: life transitions possible.
3:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't just give that job to anybody.
3:50
Speaker 3: Exactly.
3:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
3:52
Speaker 3: It implies a long history. a shared vulnerability, and just
3:55
Speaker 3: an unimpeachable level of trust. You don't give that role
3:58
Speaker 3: to someone you have even tiny reservations about. You give
4:02
Speaker 3: it to your emotional anchor.
4:04
Speaker 1: And the transition they were navigating at this specific time
4:07
Speaker 1: was huge. I mean, in June of 2024, Savannah and
4:11
Speaker 1: her husband, Ethan Katz, had literally just welcomed twin boys,
4:15
Speaker 1: Leon and Ari.
4:16
Speaker 3: So stressful, but so joyous.
4:18
Speaker 2: Right.
4:18
Speaker 1: And they were barely six weeks old. So Verzi flies
4:22
Speaker 1: from San Diego all the way to Pittsburgh, claiming she
4:25
Speaker 1: is there to do what she called nanny work.
4:27
Speaker 3: Nanny work, right.
4:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, to help her friend out. And by all accounts
4:31
Speaker 1: from the reporting we have, Verzi appeared entirely unassuming. Like
4:35
Speaker 1: she was described as meek, presenting as a completely normal, helpful,
4:40
Speaker 1: 32-year-old academic.
4:41
Speaker 3: Which brings us right to the underlying neuroscience of trust.
4:44
Speaker 3: Our brains are incredibly efficient. But that efficiency, I mean,
4:49
Speaker 3: it comes at a cost.
4:50
Speaker 1: How so?
4:51
Speaker 3: Well, we simply cannot actively assess every single person we
4:54
Speaker 3: interact with for a threat. It would require way too
4:57
Speaker 3: much cognitive load.
4:58
Speaker 1: Oh, like you'd just be exhausted all the time.
5:00
Speaker 3: Exactly. If you actively analyzed every person on the subway,
5:04
Speaker 3: every barista, every co-worker for potential danger, your amygdala would
5:08
Speaker 3: just burn out.
5:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.
5:11
Speaker 3: So we rely on labels, these mental shortcuts, best friend,
5:15
Speaker 3: maid of honor, psychology PhD student. Ah, okay. These labels
5:19
Speaker 3: act as a bypass. They send a direct signal to
5:21
Speaker 3: the brain threat detection system that says, hey, stand down.
5:25
Speaker 3: This one is safe.
5:27
Speaker 1: I feel like we really need a new framework for
5:29
Speaker 1: understanding danger here, because when we think of a threat
5:31
Speaker 1: to our family, the cultural narrative always points to a stranger, right?
5:35
Speaker 3: Always. The boogeyman.
5:37
Speaker 2: Exactly.
5:38
Speaker 1: It's the shadow in the alley. It's the broken window
5:40
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. But this wasn't a
5:42
Speaker 1: home invasion. This was social camouflage.
5:46
Speaker 3: Very well put.
5:47
Speaker 1: It's like a military sniper wearing a ghillie suit in
5:49
Speaker 1: a forest. The psychology degree, the years of friendship, the
5:53
Speaker 1: offer to do this nanny work, these weren't just labels.
5:56
Speaker 3: Right, they were active tools.
5:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, they actively broke up her silhouette so the family's
6:02
Speaker 1: threat detection radar just couldn't lock onto her. I mean,
6:05
Speaker 1: you didn't just leave the front door unlocked. You explicitly
6:08
Speaker 1: invited the danger in, you gave it a cup of coffee,
6:11
Speaker 1: and you literally handed it your infant.
6:14
Speaker 3: The ghillie suit analogy is highly, highly appropriate here. Savannah's
6:18
Speaker 3: family later characterized Verzi as a, quote, wolf in sheep's clothing.
6:22
Speaker 1: Which makes total sense.
6:24
Speaker 3: It does. But honestly, even that cliché undersells the sophistication
6:29
Speaker 3: of the disguise. Her credentials were the ultimate camouflage.
6:33
Speaker 1: Because of the psychology degree.
6:34
Speaker 3: Exactly. Society inherently trusts people who dedicate their lives to
6:38
Speaker 3: studying the mind. We naturally project a baseline of empathy
6:42
Speaker 3: onto them. We just assume they do it out of
6:44
Speaker 3: a desire to heal or to understand or to alleviate
6:47
Speaker 3: human suffering.
6:48
Speaker 1: Which, oh man, that opens up a really horrifying avenue
6:51
Speaker 1: of speculation. Because we have to ask, did someone with
6:55
Speaker 1: a dark, violent pathology deliberately seek out a psychology PhD
7:00
Speaker 1: to try and understand her own broken mind? Or, this
7:03
Speaker 1: is almost worse, was the entire academic pursuit deliberate? a
7:07
Speaker 1: calculated part of the camouflage from day one? Was she
7:10
Speaker 1: spending years studying human behavior just to get better at
7:13
Speaker 1: mimicking it?
7:14
Speaker 3: It's a really fundamental question in clinical forensic psychology when
7:17
Speaker 3: we're dealing with highly educated perpetrators.
7:20
Speaker 1: Does that happen a lot?
7:21
Speaker 3: More than you'd think. While the sources don't give us
7:25
Speaker 3: a definitive roadmap of her internal academic motivations, clinically speaking,
7:29
Speaker 3: both pathways definitely occur.
7:32
Speaker 2: Okay, well.
7:33
Speaker 3: Sometimes individuals with severe psychological aberrations gravitate towards psychology in
7:38
Speaker 3: this sort of desperate bid to figure out what is
7:40
Speaker 3: wrong with them, hoping the literature holds a cure.
7:43
Speaker 1: Like self-diagnosing.
7:44
Speaker 2: Right.
7:45
Speaker 3: But conversely, sociopathic or psychopathic individuals often study psychology specifically
7:50
Speaker 3: to learn the language of empathy.
7:52
Speaker 1: Wait, how does that actually work, though? How do you
7:54
Speaker 1: learn empathy if you just don't naturally feel it?
7:58
Speaker 3: Well, it comes down to the difference between cognitive empathy
8:01
Speaker 3: and affective empathy.
8:02
Speaker 1: Okay, break that down for me.
8:03
Speaker 2: Sure.
8:04
Speaker 3: So effective empathy is what most of us experience. You
8:07
Speaker 3: see someone cry and you actually feel a pang of
8:09
Speaker 3: sadness in your own chest.
8:11
Speaker 1: Right. You feel bad for them.
8:12
Speaker 3: Exactly. You emotionally resonate with them. Cognitive empathy, on the
8:16
Speaker 3: other hand, is purely analytical. It's the ability to recognize
8:21
Speaker 3: and understand what another person is feeling without actually feeling
8:25
Speaker 3: it yourself at all.
8:26
Speaker 1: Oh, that's creepy.
8:27
Speaker 3: It is. And psychopathic individuals often have highly, highly attuned
8:31
Speaker 3: cognitive empathy. They can map out human emotion like a
8:34
Speaker 3: foreign language.
8:35
Speaker 1: Like a cheat sheet.
8:36
Speaker 2: Yes.
8:37
Speaker 3: They learned that when a person's face does X, they
8:40
Speaker 3: are feeling Y, and the appropriate social response is Z.
8:44
Speaker 1: Wow.
8:45
Speaker 3: A Ph.D. program in psychology provides the ultimate textbook for
8:48
Speaker 3: learning those social passwords. And once you have the password,
8:52
Speaker 3: no one questions your motives when you show up to
8:54
Speaker 3: help with newborn twins.
8:55
Speaker 1: That is just chilling. because that academic camouflage wasn't just
8:59
Speaker 1: for show. She actively weaponized that caring student persona the
9:04
Speaker 1: exact moment she stepped off the plane in Pittsburgh.
9:06
Speaker 3: Instantly.
9:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the orchestration of this tragedy, it unfolded in
9:10
Speaker 1: the space of less than a week. Dana Kennedy's reporting
9:13
Speaker 1: points out that Verzi had only been in town for
9:15
Speaker 1: a few days.
9:16
Speaker 3: Which is such a crucial detail. Right.
9:18
Speaker 1: And we're not talking about some slow burning tension here.
9:21
Speaker 1: There was no time for typical resentments to fester. There
9:24
Speaker 1: were no messy roommate disputes that escalated out of control.
9:28
Speaker 3: The swiftness of that timeline, it completely rules out crimes
9:31
Speaker 3: of sudden circumstantial passion that build up over a long
9:34
Speaker 3: period of proximity.
9:36
Speaker 1: So what does it point to?
9:37
Speaker 3: The compressed timeline suggests something deeply predatory. It indicates that
9:42
Speaker 3: the intent, or at the very least the capacity for
9:44
Speaker 3: the act, arrived on the plane with her.
9:47
Speaker 1: Oh, God. Let's look at the terrifying sequence of events
9:51
Speaker 1: on June 15th, 2024. Because a horrifying realization emerges about
9:56
Speaker 1: her actions that day.
9:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, the timeline of that day is brutal.
9:59
Speaker 1: It really is. First, she deploys an isolation tactic. Verzi
10:02
Speaker 1: brings an injury on baby Ari's genitals to the parents' attention.
10:06
Speaker 2: Right.
10:07
Speaker 1: Now, just put yourself in the shoes of Savannah and
10:09
Speaker 1: Ethan for a second. You are exhausted parents of six-week-old twins. Suddenly,
10:15
Speaker 1: your trusted friend points out a concerning, mysterious injury on
10:20
Speaker 1: one of your babies.
10:21
Speaker 3: Your brain just short circuits.
10:22
Speaker 1: Exactly. Panic instantly sets in. The adrenaline spikes. They rush
10:28
Speaker 1: Ari to the hospital. And because they trust Verzi with
10:31
Speaker 1: their lives, they leave the other twin, baby Leon, completely
10:34
Speaker 1: alone in her care at the house.
10:36
Speaker 3: If we break down the mechanics of that specific moment,
10:39
Speaker 3: it is a master class in psychological manipulation.
10:43
Speaker 2: How so?
10:44
Speaker 3: Well, pointing out the injury does three critical things simultaneously. First,
10:47
Speaker 3: it creates immediate blinding chaos for the parents, which severely
10:52
Speaker 3: impairs their critical thinking. Right.
10:53
Speaker 1: They are not questioning her motives. They're just reacting.
10:56
Speaker 3: Exactly. Second, it cements Verzi's position as a caring, observant caretaker.
11:01
Speaker 3: She's the hero who spotted the problem.
11:03
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
11:03
Speaker 3: Yeah. And third, and this is the most devastating part,
11:07
Speaker 3: it clears the house. It systematically removes the protectors and
11:10
Speaker 3: completely isolates the remaining vulnerable target.
11:13
Speaker 1: And here's where it gets really interesting. And by interesting,
11:15
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely chilling. Was pointing out that first baby's
11:19
Speaker 1: injury a calculated move specifically designed to clear the house?
11:24
Speaker 3: It's the most logical conclusion.
11:25
Speaker 1: Right. Was it a manufactured crisis? Because just before midnight
11:30
Speaker 1: on that exact same day, June 15th, Verzi calls 911. Yeah.
11:34
Speaker 1: And she claims that the remaining baby, Leon, became unresponsive
11:39
Speaker 1: after accidentally falling from his bassinet.
11:41
Speaker 3: The audacity. of that specific narrative is just staggering from
11:46
Speaker 3: a pediatric and biomechanical standpoint.
11:49
Speaker 1: I mean, how does a baby even fall out of
11:51
Speaker 1: a bassinet?
11:52
Speaker 3: They don't. A bassinet is, by design, incredibly close to
11:56
Speaker 3: the floor. It is engineered to be a safe, shallow
11:59
Speaker 3: sleep space for a newborn who lacks the motor skills
12:01
Speaker 3: to roll, let alone launch themselves over an edge.
12:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can't even hold their heads up.
12:06
Speaker 3: Exactly. For a six-week-old to accidentally fall from a bassinet,
12:10
Speaker 3: and sustained fatal injuries, it defies basic physics.
12:13
Speaker 1: And the medical experts saw right through it instantly.
12:16
Speaker 3: Dr.
12:16
Speaker 1: Wolford from the Child Advocacy Center examined the babies, and
12:19
Speaker 1: the findings were definitive.
12:21
Speaker 3: Completely definitive.
12:22
Speaker 1: This wasn't a case of sudden infant death syndrome or
12:25
Speaker 1: some tragic freak accident. Leon suffered a severe skull fracture
12:30
Speaker 1: and multiple catastrophic brain bleeds.
12:33
Speaker 3: Which is horrifying.
12:34
Speaker 2: Yeah.
12:35
Speaker 1: The medical experts stated unequivocally that these injuries were the
12:38
Speaker 1: result of inflicted child abuse.
12:40
Speaker 3: In pediatric forensics, the distinction between accidental trauma and inflicted
12:44
Speaker 3: trauma is usually very, very clear.
12:47
Speaker 1: Really? How can they tell for sure?
12:49
Speaker 3: Well, a short fall, like from a bed or a bassinet,
12:52
Speaker 3: might cause a simple linear fracture, maybe. But severe skull
12:56
Speaker 3: fractures with complex shearing forces and multiple subdural hematomas, that
13:02
Speaker 3: indicates massive deliberate force.
13:04
Speaker 1: Oh, that makes me sick to my stomach.
13:06
Speaker 3: It's awful. But the medical evidence is where the ghillie
13:08
Speaker 3: suit is finally ripped off. You cannot argue with the
13:12
Speaker 3: biomechanics of a shattered skull in a six-week-old.
13:15
Speaker 1: But the truly horrifying part is the window of time
13:18
Speaker 1: she had to commit this act.
13:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is key.
13:21
Speaker 1: Because the reporting emphasizes that this wasn't a split-second mistake.
13:25
Speaker 1: She was alone with baby Leon for roughly two and
13:27
Speaker 1: a half hours.
13:29
Speaker 3: That detail right there is the anchor of the prosecution's reality.
13:33
Speaker 3: Two and a half hours is a massive expanse of
13:36
Speaker 3: time when you were alone in a quiet house.
13:37
Speaker 1: Right. It's an eternity.
13:39
Speaker 3: This was not a momentary lapse in judgment. This wasn't
13:42
Speaker 3: a situation where a frustrated caregiver shakes a crying baby
13:45
Speaker 3: in a five-second loss of control, which, to be clear,
13:49
Speaker 3: is horrific, but it has a completely different psychological profile.
13:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like a snap reaction.
13:54
Speaker 3: Exactly. But the reporter highlights that Leon's head was intentionally
13:58
Speaker 3: smashed against the bathroom floor tile.
14:01
Speaker 1: The sheer volume of cognitive control required to maintain the lie,
14:06
Speaker 1: to actively deceive the parents into leaving, to wait until
14:09
Speaker 1: the house is completely empty, and then to commit such
14:11
Speaker 1: a brutal physical act of violence over a two and
14:15
Speaker 1: a half hour window. I mean, it requires a total,
14:19
Speaker 1: absolute void of empathy.
14:21
Speaker 3: It requires a profound compartmentalization. During those two and a
14:25
Speaker 3: half hours, her heart rate was likely completely steady.
14:29
Speaker 1: You really think so?
14:31
Speaker 3: I do. She wasn't acting out of panic. She was
14:34
Speaker 3: acting out of intent. Wow.
14:36
Speaker 1: And the reality of that undeniable medical evidence, it leads
14:39
Speaker 1: us straight into the interrogation room. Because once the physics
14:43
Speaker 1: of the bassinet story are debunked, the facade just crumbles.
14:46
Speaker 3: Completely falls apart.
14:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. Verzi is interviewed by Pittsburgh detectives, and she does
14:50
Speaker 1: something surprisingly rare. She confesses.
14:53
Speaker 3: Which completely shifts the legal and psychological landscape of the
14:56
Speaker 3: entire case.
14:57
Speaker 1: Because usually they deny it, right?
14:59
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. In high-profile cases involving children, perpetrators often
15:03
Speaker 3: maintain their innocence to the bitter end, clinging to just
15:07
Speaker 3: impossible alternative theories.
15:09
Speaker 1: Well, let's dissect exactly what she said to the detectives,
15:12
Speaker 1: because her choice of words is critical here.
15:14
Speaker 3: Very critical.
15:15
Speaker 1: She tells them, quote, Right. She then adds, quote, Right.
15:29
Speaker 1: or maybe worse.
15:30
Speaker 3: Notice the phrasing there.
15:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then she drops a bomb that literally no
15:34
Speaker 1: one saw coming. She admits to having a long-running desire
15:38
Speaker 1: to harm children since she was a very young age.
15:41
Speaker 1: She explicitly described it as an urge, almost like a
15:44
Speaker 1: compulsion she can't control to hurt kids.
15:47
Speaker 3: This raises a hugely important question about the weaponization of
15:50
Speaker 3: clinical language.
15:51
Speaker 1: The psychology background coming out again.
15:53
Speaker 3: Exactly. Notice the grammatical construction of her confession. Something came
15:57
Speaker 3: over me. a compulsion I can't control. She is entirely
16:01
Speaker 3: using passive language to describe an active, deliberate choice.
16:06
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
16:07
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:07
Speaker 3: She is attempting to frame herself as a hostage to
16:10
Speaker 3: her own neurochemistry.
16:12
Speaker 1: Well, I have to push back hard on this whole
16:13
Speaker 1: compulsion narrative. I mean, the defense attorneys actually tried to
16:17
Speaker 1: get this confession thrown out of court, which, thankfully, the
16:20
Speaker 1: judge firmly denied.
16:22
Speaker 3: Rightfully so.
16:23
Speaker 1: But let's look at the sheer logic of her claim
16:25
Speaker 1: for a second. If you know you have an uncontrollable,
16:28
Speaker 1: lifelong urge to brutally harm children, why on earth are
16:32
Speaker 1: you offering to do nanny work for your best friend's
16:34
Speaker 1: newborn twins?
16:35
Speaker 3: It makes no sense.
16:36
Speaker 1: It's like an arsonist meticulously studying to be a firefighter
16:40
Speaker 1: and then voluntarily locking themselves in a warehouse full of
16:44
Speaker 1: dry kindling and gasoline and then saying, oops, the fire
16:47
Speaker 1: just came over me.
16:48
Speaker 3: That's a perfect analogy.
16:49
Speaker 1: She deliberately, methodically placed herself in a home with vulnerable targets.
16:54
Speaker 1: Isn't calling it a compulsion just a highly educated, convenient
16:58
Speaker 1: way for her to avoid the word evil?
17:00
Speaker 3: It is extremely tempting to use the word evil. But
17:05
Speaker 3: as clinical psychology generally avoids that specific term, let's look
17:08
Speaker 3: at the construct of psychopathy and malignant narcissism instead.
17:13
Speaker 1: Okay, let's do that.
17:15
Speaker 3: Because your point about the premeditation completely shatters her compulsion defense.
17:20
Speaker 3: Let's contrast what she claims a compulsion with what an
17:22
Speaker 3: actual compulsion looks like. Have you ever looked into harm OCD?
17:27
Speaker 1: A little bit, yeah, but explain how it differs from this.
17:29
Speaker 3: So harm OCD is a subtype of obsessive compulsive disorder
17:33
Speaker 3: where a person experiences these vivid, intrusive thoughts about hurting
17:37
Speaker 3: someone they love.
17:38
Speaker 1: That sounds terrifying.
17:39
Speaker 3: It is. But the key mechanism of harm OCD is
17:42
Speaker 3: that the thoughts are ego dystonic.
17:44
Speaker 1: Ego dystonic.
17:45
Speaker 2: Yes.
17:47
Speaker 3: It means the thoughts are deeply distressing, horrifying, and entirely
17:50
Speaker 3: contrary to the person's actual desires and values.
17:54
Speaker 2: Okay.
17:55
Speaker 3: A mother with harm OCD might be terrified she's going
17:57
Speaker 3: to drop her baby down the stairs. As a result,
17:59
Speaker 3: she will engage in compulsive mitigation.
18:02
Speaker 1: Like what?
18:03
Speaker 3: Well, she might refuse to ever carry the baby near stairs.
18:05
Speaker 3: Or she might avoid holding the baby altogether because the
18:08
Speaker 3: fear of acting on the thought is just so paralyzing.
18:12
Speaker 2: Oh.
18:13
Speaker 1: So they run away from the trigger. They don't buy
18:15
Speaker 1: a plane ticket and fly toward it.
18:17
Speaker 3: Exactly. The distress prevents the action. What Verzi described, and
18:21
Speaker 3: more importantly, what she actually did, is egocentronic.
18:25
Speaker 1: Meaning it matched what she wanted.
18:27
Speaker 3: Yes. The desire aligned with her actions. The calculation, the
18:32
Speaker 3: isolation of the victim, the lack of distress during that
18:35
Speaker 3: two-and-a-half-hour window, that aligns with psychopathic traits, not OCD.
18:40
Speaker 1: So she's just lying.
18:42
Speaker 3: By calling it a compulsion, she's using her PhD training
18:45
Speaker 3: to try and split herself in two. She's creating a
18:48
Speaker 3: narrative where there is the good Nicole, who is a
18:50
Speaker 3: loyal friend, and this external rogue compulsion that hijacked her brain.
18:55
Speaker 1: Right.
18:56
Speaker 3: It's a highly sophisticated way of saying, I am a
18:58
Speaker 3: victim of my own mind, therefore I am not fully culpable.
19:01
Speaker 1: But Savannah Roberts, the mother whose entire world was destroyed,
19:05
Speaker 1: she saw right through the therapy speak.
19:08
Speaker 3: Thank goodness.
19:09
Speaker 1: In court, Savannah fiercely rejected the compulsion excuse. She stated
19:12
Speaker 1: on the record that it was just Virtsy's way of
19:15
Speaker 1: absolving herself. Savannah and her family branded her a monster
19:19
Speaker 1: and a psychopath. They didn't care about the clinical nuance.
19:21
Speaker 1: They just looked at the behavior.
19:23
Speaker 3: And behaviorally, Savannah's assessment is far more accurate than Virtsy's self-diagnosis.
19:27
Speaker 1: Really?
19:28
Speaker 3: Oh, yes. The total lack of remorse required to smash
19:31
Speaker 3: an infant's head against a tile floor. The premeditation to
19:34
Speaker 3: clear the parents from the house. That is predatory behavior. Yeah.
19:38
Speaker 3: The compulsion narrative wasn't a true confession. It was her
19:41
Speaker 3: final desperate attempt at camouflage when the physical evidence finally
19:45
Speaker 3: cornered her.
19:46
Speaker 1: Which brings us to the courtroom, the place where the
19:49
Speaker 1: abductor theories, the timelines, and the psychological diagnoses become viscerally,
19:54
Speaker 1: physically real for everyone involved.
19:56
Speaker 3: The courtroom is where the rubber meets the road.
19:58
Speaker 1: Right. Now, Pennsylvania doesn't allow cameras in the courtroom, so
20:02
Speaker 1: we are relying entirely on the vivid descriptions from reporter
20:05
Speaker 1: Dana Kennedy, who was actually sitting in the room. And
20:08
Speaker 1: the atmosphere she describes is suffocating.
20:11
Speaker 3: The physical space of a courtroom during a sentencing hearing
20:14
Speaker 3: for a crime against a child is always highly, highly charged.
20:18
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine.
20:20
Speaker 3: It is an arena of raw, concentrated grief facing off
20:24
Speaker 3: against the state.
20:25
Speaker 1: And the contrast Kennedy paints in that room is haunting.
20:29
Speaker 1: On one side, you have Nicole Verzi. She is sitting
20:32
Speaker 1: there in a lime green prison jumpsuit. Her hands are cuffed.
20:35
Speaker 1: Her feet are shackled. And Kennedy explicitly notes that Verzi is, quote,
20:41
Speaker 1: calm as a cucumber.
20:42
Speaker 3: Which is chilling.
20:43
Speaker 1: Actually, scratch that. That's a terrible cliche for a murder trial.
20:46
Speaker 1: Kennedy noted she displayed an absolute chilling absence of emotion.
20:51
Speaker 1: Like she just sat there like a statue.
20:53
Speaker 3: Not a single tear.
20:54
Speaker 1: Right. And adding an entirely different layer of strangeness to this,
20:59
Speaker 1: her father, who's described as a prominent New York City physician,
21:03
Speaker 1: is sitting in the gallery and he is also displaying
21:06
Speaker 1: zero emotion.
21:07
Speaker 3: We really have to analyze the mechanism of that flat affect.
21:10
Speaker 3: The complete absence of visible emotion, what clinicians call restricted affect,
21:16
Speaker 3: is a classic hallmark observed in psychopathic individuals, particularly when
21:19
Speaker 3: they are finally cornered.
21:21
Speaker 1: Why is that?
21:22
Speaker 3: Because when a normal person is confronted with the total
21:25
Speaker 3: undeniable devastation they have caused, their autonomic nervous system reacts.
21:29
Speaker 3: They cry, they shake, they show shame or terror.
21:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, they break down.
21:33
Speaker 2: Exactly.
21:33
Speaker 3: Exactly. Psychopathic individuals often simply disconnect. They don't possess the
21:39
Speaker 3: affect of empathy required to emotionally register the pain in
21:42
Speaker 3: the room. So their face just remains blank.
21:45
Speaker 1: It's like the hardware to feel it just isn't plugged in.
21:48
Speaker 3: Precisely. It's just not there. And regarding the stoicism of
21:51
Speaker 3: the father, I mean, while it is entirely unethical and
21:54
Speaker 3: impossible to diagnose a bystander from a reporter's observation, it
21:58
Speaker 3: certainly paints a picture of a very cold, tightly controlled
22:03
Speaker 3: emotional environment.
22:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
22:05
Speaker 3: Whether that is a learned family trait of stoicism under
22:08
Speaker 3: extreme pressure or indicative of something else entirely, it definitely
22:12
Speaker 3: added to the chilling atmosphere of the room.
22:14
Speaker 1: But then you look across the aisle and there is
22:17
Speaker 1: Savannah Roberts delivering her victim impact statement. God, this part
22:23
Speaker 1: is so hard. Kennedy called it one of the most intense,
22:26
Speaker 1: harrowing things she has ever witnessed in a courtroom. Savannah
22:30
Speaker 1: stared directly at the woman who was supposed to stand
22:33
Speaker 1: up for her at her wedding.
22:35
Speaker 3: The betrayal is just absolute.
22:37
Speaker 1: And she described a specific manifestation of her trauma that completely,
22:42
Speaker 1: I mean, it just stopped me in my tracks. Savannah
22:44
Speaker 1: explained that she cannot even brush her teeth in peace anymore.
22:48
Speaker 2: Right.
22:48
Speaker 3: Because of the location.
22:49
Speaker 2: Yes.
22:50
Speaker 1: Because her son Leon was murdered on the bathroom tile.
22:53
Speaker 1: the bathroom of their home is now a major debilitating trigger.
22:57
Speaker 1: Her husband Ethan has to physically hold the surviving twin
23:00
Speaker 1: on the other side of the bathroom door, just so
23:03
Speaker 1: Savannah can mentally force herself to cross the threshold and
23:06
Speaker 1: enter that space.
23:07
Speaker 3: The psychological devastation embedded in that single, everyday detail is profound.
23:13
Speaker 1: So what does this all mean for a family trying
23:15
Speaker 1: to survive? When the very geography of your own home
23:19
Speaker 1: is weaponized by trauma, the sanctuary of a house, the
23:22
Speaker 1: place you carefully prepared to bring your newborn babies home
23:26
Speaker 1: to has literally been turned into a daily inescapable minefield.
23:30
Speaker 3: What you are describing is the absolute atomic destruction of
23:34
Speaker 3: a person's spatial and emotional safety.
23:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:37
Speaker 3: This is betrayal trauma taken to an apocalyptic extreme. Trauma
23:41
Speaker 3: isn't just a memory, right? It physically maps itself onto
23:45
Speaker 3: our environment.
23:45
Speaker 1: How does that work in the brain?
23:47
Speaker 3: Well, the hippocampus, which deals process memory and spatial navigation,
23:50
Speaker 3: it literally links the physical location of the bathroom tile,
23:54
Speaker 3: with the sheer terror of the event.
23:56
Speaker 1: So her body is reacting as if the threat is
23:58
Speaker 1: still in the room every single time she goes to
24:01
Speaker 1: grab her toothbrush.
24:02
Speaker 3: Exactly. Her nervous system is permanently sounding a five-alarm fire. Furthermore,
24:08
Speaker 3: Savannah stated in court that she now feels anyone could
24:11
Speaker 3: be a psychopath lurking behind a normal facade.
24:13
Speaker 1: And honestly, who can blame her? Right.
24:16
Speaker 3: From a psychological standpoint, how could she not feel that way?
24:19
Speaker 3: If the woman she chose is her maid of honor,
24:21
Speaker 3: the woman she trusted above almost anyone else in the world,
24:24
Speaker 3: could brutally murder her infant, then who is safe?
24:28
Speaker 1: Nobody.
24:29
Speaker 3: Exactly. Betrayal trauma of this magnitude essentially breaks the brain's
24:33
Speaker 3: ability to navigate the world. Those helpful social heuristics we
24:37
Speaker 3: talked about earlier, the labels that tell us who is safe,
24:41
Speaker 3: they are permanently fried.
24:42
Speaker 1: The bypass is broken.
24:43
Speaker 3: Completely. Her brain now sees a lethal threat in everyone
24:47
Speaker 3: and in every mundane corner of her own home.
24:50
Speaker 1: It's a burden that is just impossible to quantify, which
24:54
Speaker 1: honestly makes the legal resolution of this case so incredibly surprising.
24:57
Speaker 3: It was a shock to a lot of people.
24:59
Speaker 1: Given the horrific, calculated nature of the crime, given the
25:03
Speaker 1: absolute clarity of the medical evidence, and given her own confession,
25:06
Speaker 1: you would naturally expect the justice system to pursue the
25:10
Speaker 1: maximum possible penalty without even a second thought.
25:13
Speaker 3: From a purely prosecutorial standpoint, looking at the evidence on paper...
25:17
Speaker 3: It is an airtight case for the ultimate punishment the
25:20
Speaker 3: state can leverage.
25:21
Speaker 1: And initially, the district attorney, Stevens LaPala, did exactly that.
25:25
Speaker 1: He pursued the death penalty and first-degree murder charges.
25:28
Speaker 3: As is standard for this type of crime.
25:30
Speaker 2: Right.
25:30
Speaker 1: But then suddenly there's a massive legal pivot. A plea
25:34
Speaker 1: deal is reached before trial. Verzi pleads guilty to third-degree murder,
25:39
Speaker 1: along with five other counts relating to the abuse of
25:41
Speaker 1: both babies.
25:42
Speaker 3: Third degree?
25:44
Speaker 2: Yeah.
25:44
Speaker 1: And a sentence handed down is roughly 35 to 80
25:47
Speaker 1: years in prison, with the exact duration to be determined
25:50
Speaker 1: by parole boards decades down the line.
25:53
Speaker 3: For a case involving the deliberate physical murder of an
25:56
Speaker 3: infant by a trusted caregiver, dropping from a capital first-degree
26:00
Speaker 3: murder charge to a third-degree plea deal is statistically and
26:03
Speaker 3: procedurally quite rare.
26:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems like a huge step down.
26:06
Speaker 3: It is. Third-degree murder generally implies a lack of specific
26:10
Speaker 3: intent to kill, which frankly seems... Completely at odds with
26:14
Speaker 3: a two and a half hour window in a shattered skull.
26:18
Speaker 1: Right. And the why behind this stunning reduction is entirely
26:22
Speaker 1: about the victims. The D.A. released a statement explaining that
26:25
Speaker 1: this plea deal was reached in ongoing, careful consultation with
26:29
Speaker 1: the family.
26:30
Speaker 3: Which is crucial context.
26:32
Speaker 1: Savannah and Ethan explicitly did not want a prolonged trial. But,
26:36
Speaker 1: you know, this decision wasn't universally accepted. Dana Kennedy spoke
26:40
Speaker 1: to a Pittsburgh detective who was at the crime scene,
26:43
Speaker 1: who saw the devastation firsthand, and he was absolutely furious
26:47
Speaker 1: about the plea deal.
26:48
Speaker 3: Understandably so.
26:49
Speaker 1: He called it an open and shut first degree murder.
26:52
Speaker 1: But ultimately, the district attorney let the victim's wishes prevail.
26:57
Speaker 3: If we connect this to the bigger picture of our
26:58
Speaker 3: justice system, we are really looking at a massive inherent
27:02
Speaker 3: friction point.
27:03
Speaker 1: The friction between what?
27:04
Speaker 3: Between the state, represented by the D.A., and the police detectives,
27:08
Speaker 3: which seeks retribution in public order, and the victims. The
27:13
Speaker 3: detectives' anger is the literal embodiment of the state's anger. Oh,
27:17
Speaker 3: I see. A crime this heinous, this violative of the
27:20
Speaker 3: social order, demands the highest penalty the law allows. The
27:24
Speaker 3: state wants absolute unyielding accountability.
27:26
Speaker 1: But the victims just want to survive the next 10 minutes.
27:29
Speaker 3: Exactly.
27:30
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this dynamic, and it feels like
27:32
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system is this runaway freight train.
27:35
Speaker 3: That's a great way to look at it.
27:36
Speaker 1: It's massive.
27:38
Speaker 3: It's powerful.
27:39
Speaker 1: And once it gets going, it is aiming directly for
27:42
Speaker 1: the perpetrator to just crush them. But in this specific case,
27:45
Speaker 1: the victims had to reach up and pull the emergency brake.
27:49
Speaker 1: They had to accept a lesser charge on paper just
27:51
Speaker 1: to save themselves from the collateral damage of the process.
27:55
Speaker 1: Think about what a capital murder trial actually entails.
27:58
Speaker 3: It's a nightmare.
27:59
Speaker 1: It would be a six-week media circus. Savannah would be subpoenaed.
28:02
Speaker 1: She would be forced to sit on the witness stand,
28:04
Speaker 1: forced to look at the autopsy photos of her six-week-old baby,
28:08
Speaker 1: forced to endure aggressive cross-examination from defense attorneys, and basically
28:13
Speaker 1: forced to relive the worst day of her life over
28:15
Speaker 1: and over in a public forum.
28:17
Speaker 3: The runaway freight train analogy is actually incredibly precise. We
28:21
Speaker 3: often forget that a criminal trial is, it is by
28:24
Speaker 3: its very definition, an adversarial arena.
28:27
Speaker 1: Right.
28:27
Speaker 3: It's a fight. The Sixth Amendment guarantees the accused the
28:30
Speaker 3: right to confront their accusers.
28:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:32
Speaker 3: And that means that the defense, the attorneys, would have
28:34
Speaker 3: relentlessly crossed exam in Savannah. They would have paraded psychological
28:37
Speaker 3: experts in front of a jury to argue endlessly about
28:40
Speaker 3: Verzi's compulsion narrative, essentially putting the victims through a masterclass
28:45
Speaker 3: in gaslighting. Oh, that's just cruel. It is. For parents
28:48
Speaker 3: who can't even, for parents who are struggling just to,
28:51
Speaker 3: you know, brush their teeth in their own bathroom, right?
28:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:54
Speaker 3: The prospect of a public trial isn't just difficult. It
28:56
Speaker 3: is akin to a second psychological murder.
28:59
Speaker 1: So they took back control of their timeline by stopping
29:02
Speaker 1: the trial. They traded a first-degree conviction for immediate closure.
29:05
Speaker 2: Yes.
29:06
Speaker 3: So while a third-degree plea deal in a death penalty
29:08
Speaker 3: case is legally shocking on the surface, it is completely
29:12
Speaker 3: logical and, frankly, deeply compassionate when a district attorney prioritizes
29:17
Speaker 3: the mental survival of the grieving parents over the state's
29:20
Speaker 3: rigid need for maximum retribution.
29:23
Speaker 1: But that brings us to the final, incredibly unsettling interaction
29:26
Speaker 1: in the courtroom. We are approaching the conclusion of this
29:29
Speaker 1: deep dive today, but we really have to look at
29:32
Speaker 1: how Verzi behaved at the very end because it tells
29:34
Speaker 1: us everything we need to know about her psychology.
29:37
Speaker 3: The final moments in a sentencing hearing are usually reserved.
29:40
Speaker 3: for the defendant's allocution.
29:41
Speaker 1: Right.
29:42
Speaker 3: It is their legal right and really their final chance
29:46
Speaker 3: to speak directly to the court, to the judge, and
29:49
Speaker 3: most importantly, to the victims.
29:51
Speaker 2: Exactly.
29:52
Speaker 1: And when given the chance to stand up and speak
29:54
Speaker 1: in court, Verzi declined.
29:56
Speaker 3: Said nothing.
29:57
Speaker 1: Her attorney spoke for her, claiming she felt, quote, Nothing
30:00
Speaker 1: she could say would be enough. But she didn't just
30:02
Speaker 1: choose silence. Instead, she wrote a letter to the family.
30:06
Speaker 3: Which is a huge detail.
30:08
Speaker 1: And her attorney announced in court that the family could
30:10
Speaker 1: open and read this letter if they wanted to. The reporter,
30:14
Speaker 1: Dana Kennedy, and the team at Crime Fix both noted
30:17
Speaker 1: that this felt deeply, deeply creepy.
30:19
Speaker 3: It definitely is.
30:20
Speaker 1: It felt like a calculated way for Verzi to avoid
30:23
Speaker 1: being held publicly accountable while still taking up space in
30:26
Speaker 1: the room.
30:27
Speaker 3: It is a very specific, highly manipulative maneuver. It's easy
30:31
Speaker 3: to view it purely as cowardly, but clinically this is
30:35
Speaker 3: about absolute narrative control.
30:38
Speaker 1: I just have to vehemently push back on the idea
30:40
Speaker 1: of this letter having any shred of genuine remorse. I mean,
30:44
Speaker 1: if you truly, deeply regretted destroying your best friend's life,
30:48
Speaker 1: why not stand up, look them in the eye, take
30:51
Speaker 1: the verbal lashing you absolutely deserve, and speak the words?
30:55
Speaker 3: Because that would require actual vulnerability. Right.
30:58
Speaker 1: Handing over a sealed letter through an attorney... feels unbelievably manipulative.
31:03
Speaker 1: It feels like she is dictating the precise terms of
31:06
Speaker 1: her apology rather than submitting to the vulnerability of the
31:09
Speaker 1: court's process.
31:11
Speaker 3: You are identifying the exact power dynamic at play here.
31:15
Speaker 3: Let's analyze the psychology of this unread letter. By not
31:18
Speaker 3: speaking in court, she prevents anyone, the judge, the media, Savannah,
31:23
Speaker 3: from seeing her react, falter, or show any weakness.
31:26
Speaker 1: Right. She keeps the mask on.
31:28
Speaker 3: She protects her ego. But by leaving a physical letter,
31:31
Speaker 3: Virzi essentially plants a ticking time bomb in the victim's lives.
31:35
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
31:36
Speaker 3: If she speaks in court, her words evaporate into the air.
31:39
Speaker 3: They're documented in the transcript, sure, but the moment passes.
31:43
Speaker 3: The victims can walk out the heavy wooden doors of
31:45
Speaker 3: the courtroom and leave her voice behind.
31:48
Speaker 1: They can walk away from it.
31:49
Speaker 2: Exactly.
31:50
Speaker 3: But a sealed letter, that is an instrument of prolonged
31:54
Speaker 3: physical control. Oh, wow.
31:57
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about it like that, because they
31:59
Speaker 1: have to physically take it home with them.
32:01
Speaker 3: Precisely. It is the Zeigarnik effect, completely weaponized.
32:05
Speaker 1: The what effect?
32:06
Speaker 3: The Zeigarnik effect. It's the psychological principle that people remember
32:10
Speaker 3: uncompleted or interrupted tasks way better than completed ones.
32:13
Speaker 1: Oh, I see.
32:14
Speaker 3: It forces Savannah and Ethan into this endless loop of
32:17
Speaker 3: agonizing decisions. Do they read it? Do they burn it?
32:20
Speaker 3: If they throw it away unopened, they might lie awake
32:23
Speaker 3: at night wondering forever if she finally explained why she
32:25
Speaker 3: did it.
32:26
Speaker 1: That's just torturous.
32:28
Speaker 2: It is.
32:29
Speaker 3: If they do read it, it might just be more
32:31
Speaker 3: psychological torture, more therapy speak, and more gaslighting about her compulsion.
32:36
Speaker 3: By giving them a physical object, she guarantees she maintains
32:39
Speaker 3: a presence in their minds and in their physical space
32:43
Speaker 3: long after she is locked away in a state prison.
32:45
Speaker 1: That is sickening.
32:47
Speaker 3: It is a final, cruel exertion of power under the
32:50
Speaker 3: guise of an apology.
32:52
Speaker 1: It's haunting.
32:53
Speaker 2: It really is the ultimate manipulation from someone who clearly
32:57
Speaker 2: understands human psychology well enough to exploit it to the
33:01
Speaker 2: very bitter end. So just to recap the journey of
33:04
Speaker 2: this deep dive today, we started with the chilling camouflage
33:08
Speaker 2: of a trusted maid of honor, a woman cloaked in
33:11
Speaker 2: the respectability of a psychology PhD who used her academic
33:15
Speaker 2: and social credentials as a ghillie suit to completely bypass
33:20
Speaker 2: a family's.
33:20
Speaker 1: Natural threat detection.
33:21
Speaker 3: The ultimate betrayal.
33:23
Speaker 1: We moved through the calculated, horrific reality of her actions
33:26
Speaker 1: on June 15th, engineering a crisis to isolate a vulnerable
33:30
Speaker 1: six-week-old infant. We saw the devastating footprint of betrayal trauma
33:34
Speaker 1: left on a broken family, turning the very geography of
33:37
Speaker 1: their home into a trigger.
33:38
Speaker 3: The bathroom tile. Yeah.
33:40
Speaker 1: And we witnessed the heavy unfair compromises required by the
33:43
Speaker 1: justice system, where victims had to pull the emergency brake
33:46
Speaker 1: on a capital trial, sacrificing the maximum legal penalty just
33:50
Speaker 1: to protect their own sanity. and begin the agonizing process
33:53
Speaker 1: of healing.
33:54
Speaker 3: It is a profound, albeit extremely dark, study in the
33:57
Speaker 3: limits of human resilience, the complexities of the legal system,
34:01
Speaker 3: and really the terrifying realities that can hide behind the
34:03
Speaker 3: most trusted social masks.
34:05
Speaker 1: And that is exactly why this case resonates so deeply
34:08
Speaker 1: with you, the listener. Because our entire lives, our entire society,
34:13
Speaker 1: is built on the baseline assumption that the people we
34:15
Speaker 1: love are who they say they are.
34:17
Speaker 3: We have to believe that.
34:18
Speaker 1: We hand over our children, we open the doors to
34:21
Speaker 1: our homes, and we share our deepest vulnerabilities based entirely
34:25
Speaker 1: on implicit trust. We use those mental shortcuts every single
34:28
Speaker 1: day just to survive and function in the world.
34:30
Speaker 3: Which leaves us with a deeply unsettling question to consider
34:34
Speaker 3: long after this conversation ends. What's that? Well, if our
34:38
Speaker 3: closest friends, the people who stand beside us at our weddings,
34:42
Speaker 3: can harbor such profound, calculated darkness... How much of our
34:47
Speaker 3: everyday safety is just a fragile illusion? Is our security
34:51
Speaker 3: actually based on the physical locks on our doors? Or
34:54
Speaker 3: is it entirely dependent on the terrifyingly blind faith we
34:58
Speaker 3: place in the people we invite inside?
35:01
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on this deep dive. Keep
35:03
Speaker 1: questioning the world around you and take care of each
35:06
Speaker 1: other out there.