Latest / Wake Up with Marci / Find Your Self-Worth & Defeat Perfectionism | Dr. Margaret Rutherford

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Find Your Self-Worth & Defeat Perfectionism | Dr. Margaret Rutherford · Wake Up with Marci

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to Wake Up with Marcy, a deep dive in
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Speaker 1: the self discovery. I'm your host, Marsey Hopkins, and this
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Speaker 1: is the space where we get real about life, transformation
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Speaker 1: and finding our true selves. Hello all, and welcome back
0:15
Speaker 1: to Wake Up with Marcy. This is a podcast where
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Speaker 1: we shine a light on stories of healing, transformation, and
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Speaker 1: reclaiming your power. I'm your host, Marcy Hopkins, and I
0:27
Speaker 1: am so grateful to be here with you today. After
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Speaker 1: nearly a decade on my own healing journey from trauma
0:35
Speaker 1: and unhealthy coping to complete transformation, I've made it my
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Speaker 1: mission to empower women to prioritize themselves, find their voice,
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Speaker 1: and live with intention. And on today's show, we break
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Speaker 1: down the masks of perfection, the silence of shame, and
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Speaker 1: the weight of burnout. I know we've all been there,
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Speaker 1: so we are going to have an in depth conversation.
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Speaker 1: And I'm so honored to have doctor Margaret Rutherford on
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Speaker 1: the show. A clinical psychologist of over thirty years, ted
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Speaker 1: X speaker with over two million views, and the brilliant
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Speaker 1: voice behind the Self Work podcast, which ranks among the
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Speaker 1: top fifty mental health podcast globally. She's also the author
1:22
Speaker 1: of Perfectly Hidden Depression, a groundbreaking book helping people uncover
1:28
Speaker 1: the perfectionism that often hides emotional pain. So thank you
1:33
Speaker 1: so much for being on the show today, doctor Margaret.
1:37
Speaker 2: You're welcome, Marcia. I'm really honored to be here and excited,
1:40
Speaker 2: so thank you for having me.
1:42
Speaker 1: Very grateful, And I love this conversation. I know that
1:45
Speaker 1: it's very important to both of us. And when I
1:49
Speaker 1: was doing some research on you and like what topic like,
1:54
Speaker 1: you have so many things we could talk about, and
1:56
Speaker 1: I relate to so many of them, but this one
1:59
Speaker 1: really stood out for me, and that was about your
2:03
Speaker 1: self worth, perfectionism and not basing your worth on your
2:09
Speaker 1: accolades and your achievements. So I'm excited to peel back
2:14
Speaker 1: the layers on this conversation.
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Speaker 2: In fact, that is one of the major traits of
2:19
Speaker 2: what I call perfectly hidden depression, and it's it's I
2:22
Speaker 2: want to make sure your reader, your readers, your listeners
2:25
Speaker 2: don't get confused. There's really nothing wrong with what's called
2:31
Speaker 2: constructive perfectionism or or it's with success. I mean in
2:36
Speaker 2: and of itself. It is when you are needing, you
2:41
Speaker 2: are actually camouflaging emotional pain with success. You learned early on,
2:48
Speaker 2: perhaps that it was a way out, that it was
2:50
Speaker 2: an escape from whatever you were escaping from, And so
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Speaker 2: that process has just become automatic and unconscious and it's
2:58
Speaker 2: just who you are now. So I'm delighted we're talking
3:01
Speaker 2: about it as well.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So tell me, is there like a deep rooted reason,
3:08
Speaker 1: like you know, looking for approval from our parents, or
3:15
Speaker 1: why is perfectionism something that is so prevalent, especially in
3:22
Speaker 1: high achieving women.
3:24
Speaker 2: Well, as we say in Arkansas, there are a lot
3:27
Speaker 2: of ways around the barn. So it doesn't have one
3:33
Speaker 2: root or one core cause. It could be because you
3:37
Speaker 2: have a history of sexual abuse, alcoholism, emotional abuse. It
3:42
Speaker 2: could be because you did grow up in a family
3:44
Speaker 2: that expected you to accomplish a whole lot and their
3:48
Speaker 2: standards were very perfectionistic. It could be because you grew
3:51
Speaker 2: up in a family where no painful emotions were allowed
3:54
Speaker 2: to be discussed. You needed to look happy, you needed
3:58
Speaker 2: to keep secrets of what was actually going on in
4:00
Speaker 2: the family. So for some people, not for all, but
4:04
Speaker 2: for some people and for some women, then it becomes
4:08
Speaker 2: something that you turn to to protect yourself, to keep
4:14
Speaker 2: yourself safe. We were talking about that with you earlier,
4:18
Speaker 2: to leave the cultural expectations or the familial expectations and
4:25
Speaker 2: to somehow build something that makes more sense and that
4:28
Speaker 2: you do get accolades for. You're good at sports, you're
4:32
Speaker 2: good at school, you're a natural leader, you're you know,
4:36
Speaker 2: whatever it happens to be, and so you start building
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Speaker 2: this facade of Okay, I'm fine as long as I'm successful.
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Speaker 2: The problem gets to be Marcy that what happens is
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Speaker 2: that you are only feeling successful when you have completed
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Speaker 2: a task well, and therefore you must go on to
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Speaker 2: the next task, and the next task, next task. Yeah,
5:03
Speaker 2: it's it's perfectionism is kind of a misnomer in some ways,
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Speaker 2: that it's a problem. It's really that the nothing's ever
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Speaker 2: good enough. And in my addition to that perfectionism literature
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Speaker 2: just a clinician, I'm not a researcher. But it is
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Speaker 2: this this facet of it that is about a how
5:25
Speaker 2: it protects, how it hides, how it becomes actually its
5:28
Speaker 2: own prison, because you don't want anyone to see how
5:34
Speaker 2: much pain is inside of you, and you also don't
5:38
Speaker 2: want to feel it yourself. You're scared, and you don't
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Speaker 2: even know how you don't even know how to express it,
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Speaker 2: so you begin sort of hiding from the inside and
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Speaker 2: hiding from the outside. You're both guard and the person
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Speaker 2: who's guarding the prison and the prisoner. You're both prisoner
5:54
Speaker 2: and guard. So I know this is kind of scary
5:57
Speaker 2: to some people because they say, wait a minute, you
6:00
Speaker 2: mean that someone I know who looks like they've got
6:03
Speaker 2: life just going great. Their life is going great, everybody
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Speaker 2: loves them, they're successful, they've got great kids, they've got
6:10
Speaker 2: a great family. You mean they could have ideas about
6:12
Speaker 2: killing themselves. And the truth is yes, yes. Since I
6:18
Speaker 2: wrote about perfectly hidden depression, I've heard from so many
6:21
Speaker 2: people who lost a wife or a husband, or a
6:25
Speaker 2: child or a friend or whatever. And so this is
6:31
Speaker 2: truly a huge problem. Added on to that, what's happened
6:35
Speaker 2: in our culture within the last twenty thirty years. All
6:40
Speaker 2: the research shows that with more pressure about social media
6:43
Speaker 2: and self focus that has happened than the perfectionism rates
6:50
Speaker 2: are going up. And there's certain kinds of perfectionism that
6:53
Speaker 2: are worse than others, and that one is highly correlated
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Speaker 2: with suicidal ideation.
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Speaker 1: And you say, you say that, and I'm glad you
7:02
Speaker 1: brought that up because there's no age that's safe when
7:07
Speaker 1: it comes to this. The last few years, there have
7:13
Speaker 1: been some some situations where a young person has taken
7:18
Speaker 1: their lives. Yes, when you hear the story about someone
7:21
Speaker 1: in college, it's taken their lives. And then you hear everyone.
7:25
Speaker 3: Say, but they but they were doing this. They had
7:29
Speaker 3: straight a's, they were top of the football team. You know,
7:33
Speaker 3: everyone loved them right, right, Why would they do that?
7:39
Speaker 3: So what is that you talk about? And you've spoken
7:43
Speaker 3: about that, but that hidden depression, like you're not allowed
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Speaker 3: to feel your feelings or express your feelings and you
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Speaker 3: feel like there's no way out, right?
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Speaker 1: Is that what it is like? You just feel there's
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Speaker 1: no way out.
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Speaker 2: The people who are a lot smarter than I am.
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Speaker 2: Years ago, there was a man that started the American
8:02
Speaker 2: Association of Suicidality, Yeah, suicidology anyway, something like that. He said,
8:11
Speaker 2: the reasons people kill themselves is not because of depression,
8:16
Speaker 2: it's because of intolerable pain. It's just and he called
8:21
Speaker 2: it psych ache. And you know, they don't have to
8:25
Speaker 2: look depressed by the classic symptomatology. They just don't have
8:30
Speaker 2: to look like that. And I love that term psych
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Speaker 2: ache because it literally conveys this idea of this ball
8:39
Speaker 2: of pain inside of you that no amount of success
8:42
Speaker 2: can take away. Let me make a distinction, because I
8:46
Speaker 2: think it's a great distinction to make. There is a
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Speaker 2: thing called high functioning depression, where people they know they're depressed,
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Speaker 2: they know they actually have some traits of class depression
9:00
Speaker 2: that they are either getting treatment for or they're in
9:03
Speaker 2: medication for, they're in therapy for whatever, but they know
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Speaker 2: they have these symptoms. Maybe they're they don't enjoy life
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Speaker 2: as much as they used to, maybe they're carrying around
9:12
Speaker 2: a bunch of fatigue, maybe they're thinking gets foggy, but
9:16
Speaker 2: they still function pre during well you know now why
9:19
Speaker 2: that is? Who knows. But they are going to probably think, well,
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Speaker 2: I have perfectly hidden depression or I identify with that,
9:27
Speaker 2: and they wouldn't be wrong. But there is another group
9:30
Speaker 2: that I'm actually more concerned about. It's the group that
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Speaker 2: you and I have been discussing, which is they put
9:37
Speaker 2: on that facade. They put they started that camouflage so
9:41
Speaker 2: very early in their lives that they because they weren't
9:45
Speaker 2: allowed to talk about pain, because they were hurt whatever,
9:49
Speaker 2: it happens to be where they were the star of
9:51
Speaker 2: their family. It's just become them. And they don't even
9:55
Speaker 2: realize that they don't have access to their pay. They
10:00
Speaker 2: they have no way of expressing it. I figured this
10:04
Speaker 2: out years ago because I would have people come into
10:08
Speaker 2: my office who would have denied vehemently that they were
10:11
Speaker 2: depressed if i'd asked. In fact, they looked pretty chipper.
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Speaker 2: They just said, I don't really know why I'm here.
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Speaker 2: I just I can't seem to do what I used
10:20
Speaker 2: to do, or I'm thinking about changing jobs, or my
10:23
Speaker 2: relationship is getting nasty or something. And it was only
10:28
Speaker 2: but what I noticed about these people, Marcy, is when
10:31
Speaker 2: I asked them about pain, they go, oh, you know,
10:35
Speaker 2: everybody's family's got something bad in it, or you know,
10:39
Speaker 2: I just have not a crier, so I started crying.
10:41
Speaker 2: I'd never stop, or something like that. And they don't
10:45
Speaker 2: know how because they don't have the words for it.
10:49
Speaker 2: They've not practiced.
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Speaker 1: And so it is something to learn to express yourself
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Speaker 1: and express yourself in a positive way, right to.
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Speaker 2: Me, expressing yourself in a positive ways being able to
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Speaker 2: talk about what's not working, what's hurting you, what's angrying
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Speaker 2: you what you're afraid of. It's not that you all
11:09
Speaker 2: of a sudden jump into to being a victim. It's
11:12
Speaker 2: that you can connect with It doesn't mean you stay there.
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Speaker 2: I actually had some people accuse me when I first
11:20
Speaker 2: started writing about this. I mean not in a mean way,
11:22
Speaker 2: but they were pretty critical and said, you're pathologizing resilience.
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Speaker 2: It's resilient people who can be strong in the face
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Speaker 2: of adversity. And who the what is that the going
11:35
Speaker 2: gets tough, the tough get going, it's you know, that's stoicism,
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Speaker 2: that's resilience, that's courage. I agree. I mean, I'm not
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Speaker 2: pathologizing resilience. I think that's great. But do you have
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Speaker 2: the option. Do you have the choice to then turn
11:51
Speaker 2: around and say, wow, that was really scary, or I
11:55
Speaker 2: have compassion for the child I was because she never
11:57
Speaker 2: got to she never got nurtured, she just was told
12:01
Speaker 2: to go out and succeed. So, you know, it's it's
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Speaker 2: about balance between you know, in the work book I'm writing,
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Speaker 2: I talk a lot about and statements. You can be
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Speaker 2: happy and you can be sad, you can be purposeful
12:17
Speaker 2: and you can feel lost. You can succeed and you
12:21
Speaker 2: can struggle. I mean, it is an and and that's
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Speaker 2: that's so much of what Yeah, who we are?
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Speaker 1: Yeah? I love that. So tell us, like, how did
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Speaker 1: the book come about? How did you discover this?
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Speaker 2: Well? I feel sometimes like I'm what is that? Hansel
12:40
Speaker 2: and Gretel that followed the bread Crumbs? I followed the
12:45
Speaker 2: bread crumbs. In twenty four I had been blogging a
12:48
Speaker 2: couple of years and I started thinking about I was
12:51
Speaker 2: writing my weekly blog post, and you know, I had
12:54
Speaker 2: some followers, but you know, it's okay. And I thought
12:59
Speaker 2: about some of these people that you and I are describing,
13:02
Speaker 2: and I just picked a name out of the air
13:05
Speaker 2: and I said, the perfectly hidden depressed person? Are you one?
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Speaker 2: And the damn thing went viral And I was writing
13:12
Speaker 2: for the Post at the time, and they featured it,
13:15
Speaker 2: and I got hundreds of emails, hundreds of emails. It's like,
13:20
Speaker 2: you're in my head? How do you know about this?
13:23
Speaker 2: You know, I'm scared somebody would find out whatever it was.
13:27
Speaker 2: So I got curious, frankly Marcy and I found Brene
13:30
Speaker 2: Brown's work. She had just published Gifts of Imperfection, which
13:34
Speaker 2: was a course of huge bestseller and she's written, like
13:38
Speaker 2: I think, twenty other books since then. Yea, But even
13:43
Speaker 2: she did not get to this what I have seen
13:48
Speaker 2: in my practice, which is these, as I said a
13:50
Speaker 2: few minutes ago, these perfect looking people coming in and
13:54
Speaker 2: talking to me about how absolutely miserable they are and
13:57
Speaker 2: how much psychice they have and or how much they
13:59
Speaker 2: have in their lives so that they can't forget themselves,
14:01
Speaker 2: for they carry around with shame and fear. But they
14:05
Speaker 2: I really had to work with them to get them there.
14:08
Speaker 2: So I tell my clients all the time that if
14:12
Speaker 2: you think something should exist and it doesn't, then created.
14:18
Speaker 2: So although I'd never written a book and I didn't
14:21
Speaker 2: want to write a book, I started writing a book.
14:24
Speaker 2: And then some more breadcrumbs appeared and I got an
14:27
Speaker 2: agent and new Harbinger came on the scene who published
14:31
Speaker 2: the book. And five years after I wrote that post,
14:34
Speaker 2: how perfectly depression was published.
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Speaker 1: That's amazing. That's amazing, Like for someone out there though
14:43
Speaker 1: that's high functioning, or they're pretty happy, or they're saying
14:48
Speaker 1: there's no reason I should I should be happy right,
14:51
Speaker 1: like my life is so great. Maybe if they don't
14:55
Speaker 1: really know what because depression can look so many different
14:59
Speaker 1: ways it can. It can, and so like someone out
15:03
Speaker 1: there that's listening, like maybe they have some sad moments
15:08
Speaker 1: and they're not sure why, or they're feeling down, they're
15:12
Speaker 1: angry at themselves because they feel like they shouldn't be. Like,
15:15
Speaker 1: what does depression look like? I know it looks so
15:18
Speaker 1: different for so many people, but just maybe some things
15:21
Speaker 1: that they could say, I'm not going crazy, there is
15:24
Speaker 1: something going on.
15:26
Speaker 2: Well, the term perfectly hidden depression is it works for people.
15:32
Speaker 2: It makes sense to people. The more I've lived with
15:35
Speaker 2: this concept and thought about it, the ten traits that
15:38
Speaker 2: I came up with after interviewing over sixty people who
15:42
Speaker 2: volunteered to talk to me who were identifying with perkelely
15:45
Speaker 2: hidden depression really the ten traits. You're somebody who always
15:50
Speaker 2: is taking responsibility. You're someone who discounts or denies any
15:55
Speaker 2: kind of pain you might have had in your earlier life.
16:00
Speaker 2: Although you're very sensitive and have a lot of empathy
16:04
Speaker 2: for your friends, and you know them well and you
16:06
Speaker 2: remember everybody's birthdays, but no one really knows you that well,
16:11
Speaker 2: maybe somebody does. They usually live in another city, so
16:14
Speaker 2: you don't see them very often. You tend to feel
16:21
Speaker 2: like you've got to be grateful for everything. And there's
16:24
Speaker 2: a thing called toxic positivity, and Susan Davis after at
16:31
Speaker 2: Harvard has written a lot about it, and she says,
16:33
Speaker 2: you know, it's our culture has developed this. Just keep
16:37
Speaker 2: a gratitude journal and then you that's what you need. Yes,
16:42
Speaker 2: Like I said before, you want to be grateful, and
16:47
Speaker 2: sometimes the very things you're grateful for have things about
16:51
Speaker 2: them that are hard. I had a woman in my
16:54
Speaker 2: office who has come in because of identifying with PhD
16:58
Speaker 2: as I call it, and she looked at me in
17:01
Speaker 2: an early session and she said she has a special
17:04
Speaker 2: needs child and she said, I can't talk about how
17:08
Speaker 2: hard that is because I literally think I'm being a
17:10
Speaker 2: bad parent if I talk about it. I've never talked
17:13
Speaker 2: about it with anybody, and it's that rigid. I've got
17:19
Speaker 2: to be on I've got to be successful, i've got
17:24
Speaker 2: to be everyone's I've got to have everyone else's best
17:27
Speaker 2: interests at heart. And I simply don't ever want to
17:31
Speaker 2: touch what's beneath all that because I don't know how.
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Speaker 2: It scares me and I'm find the way I am,
17:39
Speaker 2: and I think that's what you're talking about, you know,
17:41
Speaker 2: I'm find the way I am thank you, and yet
17:45
Speaker 2: it's a really dangerous it's a dangerous kind of walk.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it sounds like kind of going back to
17:53
Speaker 1: like how we are programmed, you know, about like the
17:58
Speaker 1: shame and like judgment, Like if you feel the feelings
18:03
Speaker 1: and you put them out there, that you're going to
18:06
Speaker 1: be judged and people are not going to like you.
18:10
Speaker 2: Your facade will come completely apart. I've had people say
18:14
Speaker 2: to me, if everyone knew what I was like at home,
18:17
Speaker 2: or what I was really like, or how I really
18:18
Speaker 2: felt or what I really thought about, I'd lose my job,
18:21
Speaker 2: I'd lose my friends, I'd lose my partner, I'd lose
18:25
Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes that's accurate because if you've chosen
18:30
Speaker 2: other people who need to look perfect, or who need
18:34
Speaker 2: to stay very thin, or who need to look a
18:37
Speaker 2: certain way because it's the way you're supposed to look,
18:39
Speaker 2: then they won't understand what you're doing and they won't
18:43
Speaker 2: necessarily support what you're doing. So it's so very important
18:50
Speaker 2: to just kind of look down into yourself and the
18:53
Speaker 2: two things that I think are most important, and these
18:56
Speaker 2: are words that a lot of people use, but it's
18:59
Speaker 2: having passion for the person, the child that you were
19:04
Speaker 2: or the person you are now. And then I have
19:06
Speaker 2: a working definition of what self acceptance is, and self
19:10
Speaker 2: acceptance has nothing to do with success. It has to
19:12
Speaker 2: do with well. My working definition is recognizing that neither
19:18
Speaker 2: your strengths nor your weaknesses completely define you, and vice versa.
19:23
Speaker 2: I think that is so important to recognize the gift
19:26
Speaker 2: of self acceptance.
19:27
Speaker 1: So one of the things that you talk about self
19:31
Speaker 1: acceptance and self worth lately, finding that is centered a
19:37
Speaker 1: lot around love and connection with others and feeling right right,
19:43
Speaker 1: feeling today right. I know that for me necessary. I
19:48
Speaker 1: lost myself a long time ago in the abuse, and
19:52
Speaker 1: like you said, sexual abuse was one of my things,
19:56
Speaker 1: my parents being alcoholics, abandonment, all those things. So it
20:01
Speaker 1: was all about once once I started on a steady path,
20:07
Speaker 1: a positive path, it was all about the accolades. So
20:10
Speaker 1: it was really about my achievements. I never appreciated what
20:15
Speaker 1: had happened. I never was patty myself, like good job, Marcy,
20:20
Speaker 1: like that's a great win, you know, like you did
20:23
Speaker 1: that right, and and it was just always like, Okay,
20:27
Speaker 1: I did that, what's next next? Right.
20:31
Speaker 2: I love this metaphor that doctor Gordon Flett uses, who's
20:35
Speaker 2: a premier research researcher in perfectionism up in Canada, and
20:39
Speaker 2: he says, a certain kind of perfectionism which is what
20:42
Speaker 2: you're describing, which is called socially prescribed perfectionism. But he said,
20:46
Speaker 2: it's like being on treadmill where you have no you
20:51
Speaker 2: have no control over the incline or the speed. And
20:54
Speaker 2: then I add to that and you don't know even
20:56
Speaker 2: where you're going or when how long you're going to
20:58
Speaker 2: have to be on it.
21:01
Speaker 1: I love that you don't know where you're going.
21:04
Speaker 2: You have no except for the next thing somebody asked
21:07
Speaker 2: you to do with the next goal, except for yourself
21:10
Speaker 2: or right right exactly. It's so you talk about not
21:14
Speaker 2: being in the moment, I mean, you're not in that
21:17
Speaker 2: moment because you can't really stand me in that moment.
21:20
Speaker 1: I couldn't stand myself really, yeah.
21:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, did anybody you couldn't stand yourself?
21:25
Speaker 1: Of course not, of course, not exactly exactly.
21:29
Speaker 2: And so that's you're keeping those secrets. And now you know,
21:33
Speaker 2: I don't think you should blab your things, you know,
21:35
Speaker 2: I obviously don't think you should open up your innermost
21:38
Speaker 2: secrets to just anybody. It has to be somebody you
21:41
Speaker 2: can trust. But at the same time, in the book,
21:44
Speaker 2: I have again the number sixty for some reason. I
21:47
Speaker 2: have about sixty exercises in the book to help you
21:50
Speaker 2: make that journey. But I also say, from the very beginning,
21:54
Speaker 2: start looking around in your world. If no one really
21:56
Speaker 2: knows you, who would you trust to begin to know you?
22:01
Speaker 2: Because where the real healing comes in. I mean, they
22:04
Speaker 2: can read my book and put it down and forget it.
22:07
Speaker 2: Where the real healing, as you were pointing out, shows,
22:12
Speaker 2: what it begins to show itself, is when you can
22:15
Speaker 2: look at somebody and say, man, I've had a rough day, yeah,
22:19
Speaker 2: you know, or I feel like a failure, or I
22:23
Speaker 2: get worried that if I gain any weight, I'll be ostracized,
22:29
Speaker 2: or I'll lose my job. Whatever it is that you're
22:32
Speaker 2: shame is about. Yeah, So you know, I watched my
22:36
Speaker 2: mother struggle with this. Obviously I didn't call it perfectly
22:38
Speaker 2: hid in depression. I didn't know what to call it.
22:40
Speaker 2: But she looked perfect in every way, but she had
22:44
Speaker 2: absolutely no real self worth mm hm. And so she
22:49
Speaker 2: turned the prescription drugs to and became addicted to them.
22:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can relate. I can relate completely to that.
22:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
22:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, saying with my mom, you know,
23:01
Speaker 1: she was addicted to alcohol. But if you saw from
23:04
Speaker 1: the outside, you would think she had it all together until, yeah,
23:09
Speaker 1: until about five o'clock in the evening when everything started
23:13
Speaker 1: changing right behind closed doors. Yeah. And God is just
23:20
Speaker 1: so sad, right because so the talent. We all have
23:23
Speaker 1: such gifts and talents and these things that are taken
23:27
Speaker 1: away from us. But you, yourself, I mean you've gone through
23:33
Speaker 1: your own hardships.
23:34
Speaker 2: I mean you've gone through most of which I created
23:37
Speaker 2: for myself, by the way.
23:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know what, you recognize your part, and
23:45
Speaker 1: that's that's something that I've learned. If that's what I'm
23:49
Speaker 1: hearing you say that that you created it for yourself,
23:53
Speaker 1: but you're recognizing today you have the ability through all
23:57
Speaker 1: that you do, to recognized that, right, And that's one
24:02
Speaker 1: of the hardest things that we can do is look
24:06
Speaker 1: at ourselves and acknowledge that we had a role in something,
24:09
Speaker 1: and that's the only way we can change it. But
24:12
Speaker 1: you went through two divorces, that's right, and you had
24:16
Speaker 1: a lot God.
24:17
Speaker 2: And those were chaotic relationships. They were not like, they
24:20
Speaker 2: were not healthy. The first one was just a bad
24:23
Speaker 2: choice on my part, and the second one, actually there
24:26
Speaker 2: were reasons. I tried so hard when that one, I thought,
24:30
Speaker 2: you know, I was trying to make him into the
24:33
Speaker 2: one and he was abusive. And so I stayed with
24:37
Speaker 2: him well seven years, five dating and two married. But
24:44
Speaker 2: as I began to get healthier, I recognized that it
24:48
Speaker 2: was emotionally killing me to stay with him. And even
24:52
Speaker 2: though I was so ashamed of being divorced not once
24:55
Speaker 2: but twice at the tender age of thirty three, I
24:59
Speaker 2: chose to do so. But I carried a lot of
25:02
Speaker 2: shame about it around a lot. Yeah, I'm to the
25:06
Speaker 2: point where when we moved here to Fable, Arkansas, from Dallas,
25:10
Speaker 2: I told my therapist in Dallas, I said, I'm just
25:12
Speaker 2: not going to mention it. I'm just not going to
25:14
Speaker 2: mention it. It's like, Eh, somebody asks me, have you
25:17
Speaker 2: been married before? I'm not going to lie, but I'm
25:20
Speaker 2: not going to offer the information. And that was the
25:22
Speaker 2: truth until and so I and we were in Fable
25:26
Speaker 2: several years. Again, I didn't lie, but I didn't offer right.
25:32
Speaker 2: But one woman came and sat in. She's a new patient,
25:35
Speaker 2: and she was crying and she said, I'm getting a
25:38
Speaker 2: second divorce. But then she looked at me and said,
25:42
Speaker 2: but you wouldn't know what that was like. And it
25:44
Speaker 2: was at that moment that I had to make a choice. Yeah,
25:50
Speaker 2: And I looked at her and I said, and I
25:52
Speaker 2: was kind of yearning to make that choice. It was time.
25:55
Speaker 2: And I said, you know, well, no, you're about to
25:58
Speaker 2: be a member of a club that I've I've been
26:00
Speaker 2: a member of for a long time. And she looked
26:03
Speaker 2: at me kind of shocked, and I didn't talk any
26:06
Speaker 2: more about it. It was her, It was her therapy
26:08
Speaker 2: session on mine. Yeah, of course you know it. And
26:12
Speaker 2: that has that that began the easing and the letting
26:17
Speaker 2: go or letting it be, just letting my shame be
26:20
Speaker 2: and just there it is. Okay, yep, that's a fact.
26:25
Speaker 1: So but how did you But how did you get stronger? So,
26:29
Speaker 1: if you're an abusive relationship, I mean that destroys your
26:33
Speaker 1: self esteem in so many ways, right and changes the
26:37
Speaker 1: person that you are. So let's go there, like how
26:42
Speaker 1: did you start rebuilding your self esteem and self worth?
26:47
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of women out there that
26:49
Speaker 1: it may not be physical, but it's mental, or maybe
26:52
Speaker 1: they're going through a divorce. They have so much shame
26:54
Speaker 1: about it, they've lost themselves and a divorce, like, how
26:58
Speaker 1: can we start to to heal move forward?
27:03
Speaker 2: Well, in my particular instance, I was in the music business.
27:07
Speaker 2: I was a professional singer, and both my husbands were
27:11
Speaker 2: first husbands were musicians as well. One was a professor
27:15
Speaker 2: and then the other one was just a I want
27:18
Speaker 2: to be and very good looking and yeah, yeah that
27:26
Speaker 2: was And so the first thing I had to realize
27:30
Speaker 2: was that the music business was not was I was
27:34
Speaker 2: not thriving in the what I was doing in my life.
27:37
Speaker 2: I was not thriving in that environment. And that had
27:41
Speaker 2: nothing to do really with any kind of partner I had.
27:44
Speaker 2: But it was pulling out that some of the things
27:47
Speaker 2: that were bad for me and weaknesses of mine. So
27:51
Speaker 2: I thought, what else can I do? And I heard
27:53
Speaker 2: about something called music therapy, and I put all the
27:57
Speaker 2: money I had in the world down on the first
27:59
Speaker 2: year of that program, and then luckily got grants and stuff.
28:02
Speaker 2: But I went into music therapy and I thought okay, oh,
28:07
Speaker 2: and I started volunteering at the domestic women's shelter. So
28:10
Speaker 2: I began trying to help people whose lives were in
28:12
Speaker 2: more chaos than mine, at least on the surface. So
28:16
Speaker 2: I changed my attitude to what I was doing. I
28:19
Speaker 2: tried to do something with my life that was about
28:23
Speaker 2: helping other people, and I really enjoyed that. That led
28:26
Speaker 2: me into music therapy. I was there for two three years,
28:30
Speaker 2: but I did a residency, or not a residency, an
28:33
Speaker 2: internship at a psych hospital and I realized, no, I
28:37
Speaker 2: want to be a psychologist, and I had been in
28:39
Speaker 2: therapy for years. I got therapy. That's another thing I did,
28:43
Speaker 2: so I didn't have a psychology degree, so I had
28:47
Speaker 2: to go back and take psychology courses. But basically, when
28:51
Speaker 2: I got out of the music business, which was I
28:54
Speaker 2: began to feel more like I had before the chaos began,
29:00
Speaker 2: and accept older and wiser. And then I began to
29:04
Speaker 2: meet people who were telling me things that was very
29:07
Speaker 2: different than what my second X husband was telling me.
29:10
Speaker 2: He would say things like, you better stick with me,
29:13
Speaker 2: because if anybody knew who you really were, they wouldn't
29:17
Speaker 2: they wouldn't be a relationship with you. And I believed
29:20
Speaker 2: him at the time. Of course, yep. But we got
29:23
Speaker 2: married and my mom on her prescription drugs out for
29:28
Speaker 2: a head when that happened. Understandably why, I understand why now.
29:35
Speaker 2: But he finally said one too many things to me
29:39
Speaker 2: that didn't jibe with this person I was becoming, and
29:42
Speaker 2: I had the strength to say, and so we went
29:48
Speaker 2: back into therapy worked on it. It was not like
29:50
Speaker 2: I gave up easily, but there was something in me
29:52
Speaker 2: that said, this is not where I need to be.
29:55
Speaker 2: And I was reared in a very religious home, and
30:00
Speaker 2: you know, my grandmother took me out of her will
30:02
Speaker 2: when I divorced the first time, because that's not what
30:05
Speaker 2: you do, and so there was a lot of shame
30:08
Speaker 2: around all that for me. Yeah.
30:10
Speaker 1: And I mean again, through through the things we're talking
30:15
Speaker 1: about right, like whether it's addiction or being unhappy or
30:22
Speaker 1: depressed or putting down the facade you know, of there,
30:27
Speaker 1: these are things like you were programmed to believe that
30:31
Speaker 1: there's shame around divorce and like it's got to be
30:35
Speaker 1: your fault if it didn't work out right.
30:38
Speaker 2: Definitely.
30:39
Speaker 1: Uh.
30:39
Speaker 2: In fact, I had an AHA moment because I was
30:41
Speaker 2: in training at the Southwest Family Institute and we studied
30:44
Speaker 2: like families. We studied dienograms and that kind of thing,
30:47
Speaker 2: and we did a genogram in my family and I realized,
30:49
Speaker 2: wait a minute, there hasn't even been a separation. There
30:52
Speaker 2: hasn't been a divorce, you know, And uh, yeah, I
30:56
Speaker 2: got both prizes, the first and the second.
31:00
Speaker 1: Maybe, like we've talked about before, maybe you've broken a
31:03
Speaker 1: generational cycle just because they think their lives that they
31:09
Speaker 1: were like so unhappy and really we're supposed to be
31:14
Speaker 1: living in love and peace and joy. And I mean
31:17
Speaker 1: some people may think that's so cheesy, but it's true.
31:22
Speaker 1: My dog's tail keeps popping up and.
31:25
Speaker 2: I did that, But yeah, it was. It was hard
31:31
Speaker 2: on my parents. I mean, they really were embarrassed that
31:34
Speaker 2: that I was doing what I was doing, and right, mortified,
31:39
Speaker 2: mortified small southern.
31:40
Speaker 1: To how you're feeling? And my how is my child feeling?
31:45
Speaker 2: Right?
31:45
Speaker 1: Because this happened to my hands, my grandfather like it
31:49
Speaker 1: was her fault that divorce happened. And you know, she
31:52
Speaker 1: found it was always about finding the perfect man, right,
31:55
Speaker 1: the man that was fine us right, and then letting
32:00
Speaker 1: them down. So again, like now you're trying to not
32:04
Speaker 1: let the guy you're married to down you're trying not
32:06
Speaker 1: to let your family down, Like, where are you in
32:09
Speaker 1: the equation? Right? So it it's and we're really supposed
32:14
Speaker 1: to live, like sometimes we choose the wrong person. And
32:17
Speaker 1: I think again having these conversations around it, not that
32:21
Speaker 1: I want to advocate for divorce, but it's okay. If
32:27
Speaker 1: things didn't work out right, if something wrong, they may
32:32
Speaker 1: not show who they are in the beginning.
32:34
Speaker 2: So well, sadly he showed me who he was.
32:39
Speaker 1: I've been there, I get it. I get it. Oh,
32:47
Speaker 1: I know love love, finding love, what that really means.
32:51
Speaker 1: So tell us about you your I know you're writing
32:53
Speaker 1: another book right now, tell us about that.
32:55
Speaker 2: I'm actually writing a work book for the book, and
32:59
Speaker 2: I'm I'm I have about two or three more weeks
33:03
Speaker 2: to clean it up and then but it won't be
33:05
Speaker 2: it won't be published until the spring of next year.
33:10
Speaker 2: And I went about it a whole different way because
33:12
Speaker 2: one of the things that I think was the best
33:15
Speaker 2: part of the book are the exercises, and one of
33:17
Speaker 2: the hardest things about the book were the exercises. And
33:20
Speaker 2: so a lot of people read the book but said
33:24
Speaker 2: that the exercises were a little overwhelming for them. The
33:28
Speaker 2: people who did it have written me and said, oh,
33:29
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I did the exercises. So this one
33:33
Speaker 2: I decided to make a little more approachable, a little less.
33:38
Speaker 2: It still gets to the point, but it's not as
33:43
Speaker 2: as one critical review says on Amazon of my book,
33:47
Speaker 2: I loved the book the last like the first part
33:50
Speaker 2: of it, the first fourth of it. But then it
33:52
Speaker 2: started feeling like a therapy session, and I thought, yeah,
33:54
Speaker 2: that's actually what I wanted it to feel like. Right, So,
33:59
Speaker 2: you know, some people don't want to do therapy in
34:01
Speaker 2: a book, so this book will be easier, It'll be
34:05
Speaker 2: it's a whole different take on it. It's deep anyway.
34:10
Speaker 2: I won't go into the you know though, yeah, but
34:13
Speaker 2: outs of it.
34:14
Speaker 1: But what you're saying, right is we've got to take
34:17
Speaker 1: action to create the change for ourselves. Yes, and sometimes
34:23
Speaker 1: that can be really hard. Or maybe you know, one
34:27
Speaker 1: thing you're saying isn't connecting. But if you hear multiple
34:30
Speaker 1: things or a different way, like you're going to be
34:32
Speaker 1: presenting through this workbook, maybe somebody would be able to
34:37
Speaker 1: digest it and do the work a little bit more.
34:39
Speaker 1: But we got to do the work I have. I
34:41
Speaker 1: have to keep my routine. I'm almost ten years sober,
34:44
Speaker 1: changed my mind set about everything, reprogram my brain, and
34:49
Speaker 1: it's a daily action. I have to do these things
34:53
Speaker 1: to set myself up for the day and keep myself
34:57
Speaker 1: grounded through the day. And one of the best things
35:00
Speaker 1: I did was, because we're talking about the perfectionism, was
35:03
Speaker 1: let that go and start laughing at myself.
35:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, eat me alive.
35:12
Speaker 1: If I made a mistake and now I let it,
35:16
Speaker 1: I let it go. But it took a long time
35:18
Speaker 1: to get there and be able to do that. So
35:23
Speaker 1: there's one thing that a lot of us talk about,
35:29
Speaker 1: me as an advocate in living it and you as
35:32
Speaker 1: a doctor, really shifting our mindset right, our mental wellness
35:38
Speaker 1: and reprogramming our thoughts. What does that exactly mean?
35:45
Speaker 2: Well, when I hear that phrase, I think it is
35:48
Speaker 2: a study of your thoughts. I think you you have
35:52
Speaker 2: to get far enough away. You know, like when you
35:54
Speaker 2: stand by a mirror, you can't see yourself very well
35:57
Speaker 2: if you're real close. Yeah, you have to get enough
36:01
Speaker 2: inches away to actually begin in to see your reflection.
36:05
Speaker 2: Your thoughts are like that too. I think you just say,
36:08
Speaker 2: well that's what I think. But when you get a
36:10
Speaker 2: little more distance away from well, why do I think that?
36:13
Speaker 2: Is that a rational thing to think? Is that a
36:16
Speaker 2: reasonable thing to think? Where does that come from? Is
36:19
Speaker 2: that a rule I'm having to follow? So you know,
36:23
Speaker 2: when you say that kind of phrase to me, it
36:29
Speaker 2: means that you are reassessing. And then if you don't like,
36:34
Speaker 2: if you don't want to have that thought, you replace it.
36:38
Speaker 2: The CBT people say you thoughts stop, and if you
36:42
Speaker 2: find a thought that just isn't helpful to you or
36:45
Speaker 2: is it wrong, you stop that thinking. You literally tell
36:49
Speaker 2: yourself to stop, which I do all the time, and
36:53
Speaker 2: then you replace it with another thought that is more helpful,
36:57
Speaker 2: and that begins to reprogram your thoughts.
37:00
Speaker 1: It does, It does. And one of the things I
37:03
Speaker 1: love is that you can't think of two things at
37:05
Speaker 1: one time.
37:06
Speaker 2: That's right, so you're.
37:11
Speaker 1: Thinking of something negative. I didn't use affirmations a lot,
37:16
Speaker 1: but I've started using them a lot more. So. You know,
37:20
Speaker 1: it's like, we have all of these modalities that can
37:23
Speaker 1: help us, and you know they have they evolve, right,
37:26
Speaker 1: So like the different things that help us maybe in
37:29
Speaker 1: different stages of our healing, and and the neuroplasticity that
37:34
Speaker 1: goes even deeper and behind that, right, so so that
37:40
Speaker 1: that reprogramming, you're literally changing, right the transmitters in your
37:44
Speaker 1: brain and.
37:46
Speaker 2: It's certainly changing the pathways that yeah, yeah, yeah, so
37:52
Speaker 2: you know, and you can do that in therapy, you
37:53
Speaker 2: can do that in your just normal life. You just
37:55
Speaker 2: have to uh examine your life and examine your thoughts
38:00
Speaker 2: and examine your emotions. It's it's something that some people
38:04
Speaker 2: don't want to do. Frankly, it's too difficult. It takes time,
38:08
Speaker 2: it takes energy, and at the same time it adds
38:12
Speaker 2: a meaning and a fulfillment to your life. That when
38:16
Speaker 2: you are noticing what's going on in your mind and
38:21
Speaker 2: your heart and your soul that feels good or feels
38:26
Speaker 2: congruent with what your values are, then you know you say, oh, my,
38:30
Speaker 2: my actions and how I am out in the world
38:33
Speaker 2: fit what I believe myself to be or what I
38:36
Speaker 2: want to be inside. And then sometimes they don't. And
38:40
Speaker 2: so you know, you can say, I want to align
38:42
Speaker 2: more with this if I say I want to be
38:44
Speaker 2: generous or I say I want to be kind, But
38:48
Speaker 2: is this a kind action? Is this a kind thought?
38:51
Speaker 1: You know?
38:51
Speaker 2: If it's not, then yeah, you have to stop it.
38:55
Speaker 1: So if someone's out there and they're attaching their self
39:00
Speaker 1: worth to achievements and accolades and validation from others, how
39:07
Speaker 1: can they start? What are some things they could implement
39:11
Speaker 1: to start creating some change for themselves or just I
39:15
Speaker 1: just identifying that they're doing it.
39:18
Speaker 2: You know, I think that consciousness again perfectionism and being
39:22
Speaker 2: very successful and something you know, I know if I
39:25
Speaker 2: do it, I'm going to do it well. Again, there's
39:28
Speaker 2: nothing innately wrong with that. It is when that is
39:31
Speaker 2: your only go to when you can't say no, when
39:35
Speaker 2: you can't allow yourself to just do it in sort
39:37
Speaker 2: of a mediocre fashion. I fixed some mediocre spaghetti last night.
39:42
Speaker 2: It was I didn't have a lot of time, and
39:44
Speaker 2: I didn't really care much, and we tasted it a lot.
39:48
Speaker 2: But you know, I think you have to become conscious
39:52
Speaker 2: of it and realize that maybe there are aspects of
39:56
Speaker 2: that drive and that perfectionism that are unhealthy for you,
40:01
Speaker 2: and that you're afraid of admitting that. So and then
40:05
Speaker 2: you have to commit. And that whole commitment process is
40:10
Speaker 2: hard because I remember going to a conference years ago
40:14
Speaker 2: on eating disorders on anorexia, and the speaker said, when
40:17
Speaker 2: you ask anorex and anorexia to stop restricting, it's like
40:22
Speaker 2: you're telling them to no longer have their best friend,
40:25
Speaker 2: because their best friend that they feel in control with
40:28
Speaker 2: their best friend, they just don't eat. And so you know,
40:31
Speaker 2: you're asking the same thing as a perfectionist. I have
40:34
Speaker 2: used the metaphor in my book that when you're working
40:39
Speaker 2: with someone, either yourself or as a therapist, I'm working
40:42
Speaker 2: with someone with perfectionism. We have to be very careful
40:45
Speaker 2: that if you remember the jinga game, you know, have
40:47
Speaker 2: you ever played Jinga? You pick a piece that you
40:53
Speaker 2: don't think the whole structure will fall down if you
40:55
Speaker 2: put it, and then put it on the top. That's
40:57
Speaker 2: what we have to do. We don't want to take
41:00
Speaker 2: a piece and then the whole thing crumbles or tumbles
41:03
Speaker 2: to the ground. That is not where you want to go.
41:06
Speaker 2: You want to say, well, maybe I can shift this
41:09
Speaker 2: just a little bit. Maybe I can shift this just
41:11
Speaker 2: a little bit. Maybe I can share with a friend.
41:15
Speaker 2: You know, I don't really know how to talk about
41:17
Speaker 2: myself very well, that's all I have to say. The
41:21
Speaker 2: friend will go, well, you know I've kind of noticed that,
41:24
Speaker 2: or they'll go really that's probably not the friend you trust.
41:29
Speaker 2: One of the friends will say, well, I've noticed you,
41:31
Speaker 2: don't You just seem very private And you say, well,
41:36
Speaker 2: I'd like to try not to be, but I'm going
41:39
Speaker 2: to work on that. You know, But that's really all
41:41
Speaker 2: you have to do. Just start where you are. Start
41:44
Speaker 2: where you are.
41:45
Speaker 1: Then.
41:45
Speaker 2: The third step that I suggest in the book is
41:47
Speaker 2: to look at the rules you're following and the beliefs
41:50
Speaker 2: underneath those rules. Meaning, if I show my anger, If
41:56
Speaker 2: I showed my anger when I was a child, I
41:59
Speaker 2: was punished for it. What did I learn when I
42:03
Speaker 2: get angry, I'm not safe? And so you're still carrying
42:08
Speaker 2: around that belief I can't show my anger because I
42:11
Speaker 2: won't be safe. That belief is and so you have
42:14
Speaker 2: to you have to recognize the beliefs underneath the rules
42:17
Speaker 2: you're following, and then see how you could maybe shift
42:21
Speaker 2: those beliefs. The fourth step is to look at your
42:27
Speaker 2: life all the way from when you were two to
42:31
Speaker 2: when you were eighty two, and to look at the
42:34
Speaker 2: things that you recognize were really positives in your life
42:37
Speaker 2: that helped you find your way, and that were things
42:41
Speaker 2: that really helped you become the person you wanted to be,
42:44
Speaker 2: But what got in the way of that? What was traumatic?
42:47
Speaker 2: What was difficult? What hurt you, what pained you? That
42:52
Speaker 2: could be anywhere from getting bullied to moving around much
42:55
Speaker 2: because you were in a military family, to or maybe
42:57
Speaker 2: that was a positive some people that would be a negative,
43:00
Speaker 2: people that'd be a positive. And then you go back
43:02
Speaker 2: it's called an emotional trauma timeline, and then you can
43:06
Speaker 2: begin to see patterns. So that is a very helpful exercise.
43:11
Speaker 2: And then the last, frankly, is what do you decide
43:14
Speaker 2: to change? You know, if I had done this interview
43:17
Speaker 2: probably eight years ago, would I have welcomed the idea
43:21
Speaker 2: that you talked about my two divorces. I probably wouldn't
43:25
Speaker 2: have said anything, but I probably would have liked it.
43:26
Speaker 2: I don't care now.
43:29
Speaker 1: I get it. I get it.
43:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you know, it's like, because that's how
43:33
Speaker 2: far I've come, maybe even more like here or twelve
43:35
Speaker 2: years ago, I wouldn't have liked that. Yes, it's been
43:37
Speaker 2: okay for a while, But I'm just trying to say
43:41
Speaker 2: that you have to change. I believe that after all
43:45
Speaker 2: the people that I've just watched try to change that
43:49
Speaker 2: you actually you get insight gives you. It's very pleasant.
43:53
Speaker 2: It like goes, Oh, I get it. I understand the
43:56
Speaker 2: pieces fit together, and those aha moments are good. But
43:59
Speaker 2: where you get hope is from behavior change. I all
44:04
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I don't feel that way anymore, or
44:06
Speaker 2: all of a sudden it seems like all of a sudden,
44:08
Speaker 2: or I don't want to get mad about that, or
44:11
Speaker 2: I do want to get mad about that. I mean,
44:13
Speaker 2: it's when you can see yourself actually changing.
44:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I had
44:19
Speaker 1: to just to not get act because I would react
44:22
Speaker 1: to life, just react, you know, instead of now responding,
44:26
Speaker 1: and I'm still guilty. I'm human, We're all human. Oh yeah,
44:30
Speaker 1: but it's those things really, you know, they really work
44:35
Speaker 1: when like you just pause, count to five, like you know,
44:39
Speaker 1: Mel Robbins says, or breath breath exercise breathing techniques, and
44:46
Speaker 1: those really work, the box breathing and just do not
44:52
Speaker 1: respond to that text or email. Oh my gosh, I
44:55
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times I've just jumped right in.
44:58
Speaker 1: And then you know, we gotta unravel all that right,
45:01
Speaker 1: and it's so much work. We just make something worse,
45:04
Speaker 1: and half the time we misunderstand it.
45:06
Speaker 2: I am so glad that texting wasn't a part of LIT.
45:12
Speaker 2: Oh my lord, they were hard enough as it was.
45:14
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, no, I know.
45:17
Speaker 1: Well, how can we connect with you? I mean, your
45:21
Speaker 1: your ted X talk is I must watch, and your
45:25
Speaker 1: book and just all the things you're doing are absolutely
45:29
Speaker 1: phenomenal and you're a phenomenal woman. So where can we
45:33
Speaker 1: find you if someone's looking for help out there?
45:35
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Marcy. That's very kind of you to say.
45:38
Speaker 2: I'll have to go downstairs and tell my husband that
45:41
Speaker 2: he's married to phenomenal person.
45:44
Speaker 1: You just have to believe it.
45:48
Speaker 2: I'm sure, Peo will I agree, you'll go. In fact,
45:51
Speaker 2: I know what it'll say, which I probably can't say
45:53
Speaker 2: on the air. My website's doctor Margaret Rutherford dot com.
45:59
Speaker 2: Very create. It's the self work podcast and it's on Apple, Spotify,
46:05
Speaker 2: everywhere you listen to podcasts. The book is in the library,
46:09
Speaker 2: it's you know, and then the workbook will be coming
46:13
Speaker 2: out in the spring. And the ted X has the
46:17
Speaker 2: message is one that is really resonating with people. So
46:20
Speaker 2: and it might interest your listeners. I guess it's watchers
46:26
Speaker 2: too that I actually told you this before I was
46:29
Speaker 2: having a panic attack. I have performance anxiety, and the
46:32
Speaker 2: bottom half of my body was locked into a position
46:36
Speaker 2: where I was finding my anxiety and where I was
46:39
Speaker 2: trying to move the rest of my body lock It
46:41
Speaker 2: was just fine. So it gives you a little bit
46:44
Speaker 2: of what was going on for me. I actually was
46:48
Speaker 2: pretty amazing. Came out.
46:50
Speaker 1: We can do hard things, right, We.
46:52
Speaker 2: Can do hard things. That's right.
46:54
Speaker 1: When you look at people and you think, oh, they
46:57
Speaker 1: do it with such cheese, will leave me, they're going
47:00
Speaker 1: through it too. No, So again, thank you, thank you
47:05
Speaker 1: so much. And for all those out there that are listening,
47:09
Speaker 1: are watching, if today's conversation resonated with you, if you're
47:14
Speaker 1: feeling stuck, burned out, or you feel like you've lost
47:18
Speaker 1: touch with yourself or your worth, I want you to
47:21
Speaker 1: know that you're not alone and you don't have to
47:23
Speaker 1: navigate this life alone either. I mean, there's so many
47:27
Speaker 1: of us, and it is about that connection and that love.
47:29
Speaker 1: And I'd also like to remind you and invite you
47:33
Speaker 1: to join me something that's really meaningful for me, and
47:38
Speaker 1: that is the Shatterproof Walk. I'm going to be in
47:40
Speaker 1: seeing the one in New York, which is October twenty fifth,
47:44
Speaker 1: and then the one in La November November ninth. I believe,
47:50
Speaker 1: and I'm also putting together a team, so I'll put
47:53
Speaker 1: all that information below along with doctor Margaret's. And I'm
47:57
Speaker 1: just so grateful that you are here and I will
48:01
Speaker 1: see you next time. I again, I'm here to remind
48:05
Speaker 1: you that healing is power, right, doctor Margaret, and your
48:09
Speaker 1: rise is not up for negotiation, and the best is
48:13
Speaker 1: yet to come. That's right, all right, thank you, and
48:18
Speaker 1: I'll see you all next week.
48:20
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you,