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What Can We Do Differently with Estefana Johnson, LCSW · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gan Macpherson.
0:04
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
0:07
Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go five four, three,
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Speaker 1: two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
0:17
Speaker 1: I am very excited to hap as my guest today
0:19
Speaker 1: as Stefana Johnson A. Stepfana Welcome, Thank you, thank you
0:22
Speaker 1: for having me awesome. So. Stephana is a licensed clinical
0:26
Speaker 1: social worker and experienced trauma therapist with over two decades
0:30
Speaker 1: of experience working in the mental health field. As a
0:33
Speaker 1: direct Director of Clinical Training for ARISE Alliance Institute, as
0:38
Speaker 1: Stephan oversees the professional development and training of clinicians on
0:42
Speaker 1: Critical Memory Integration or CMI. Her role involves designing and
0:48
Speaker 1: implementing comprehensive training curricula for mental health professionals to enhance
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Speaker 1: clinical skills, particularly particularly in trauma focused care, PTSD treatment
0:58
Speaker 1: and therapeutic inter Vengeans Stefan, and welcome to the podcast.
1:03
Speaker 1: Before we get going, share with the listeners where you're
1:05
Speaker 1: from originally and where you are currently.
1:08
Speaker 2: So I am from I was raised born in Opaso,
1:12
Speaker 2: raised in New Mexico, right now I practice out of Arizona,
1:17
Speaker 2: So Gilbert, Arizona. Today I'm in Maryland because I'm visiting family.
1:23
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so let's let's get into it. How the
1:28
Speaker 1: heck did you get into this field? You know, broadly,
1:32
Speaker 1: and then more specifically, we'll talk about trauma.
1:34
Speaker 2: Sure. What's what's funny is I never I'm first generation
1:38
Speaker 2: Mexican American. My parents were born raised in Mexico, you know,
1:41
Speaker 2: like when I was born, my parents were still working
1:44
Speaker 2: on their citizenship so very much that Hispanic culture. I
1:49
Speaker 2: never thought therapy would be a field I would get into.
1:52
Speaker 2: It was like, you have one diagnosis, it's where you're flying?
1:56
Speaker 1: What'd you say?
1:57
Speaker 2: Loco's I didn't you know. I never would have guessed
2:03
Speaker 2: i'd be in this. And what's funny is when I
2:05
Speaker 2: went to college, I was going to try to do
2:07
Speaker 2: nursing and I was working at a store. I don't know,
2:10
Speaker 2: if you remember Montgomery Wards you might, yeah, yeah, So
2:13
Speaker 2: they were shutting down. I was selling furniture there and
2:16
Speaker 2: the lady came up. I put an ad out to
2:18
Speaker 2: look for a job, and some lady said, hey, if
2:21
Speaker 2: you give me a discount on a couch, I'll get
2:23
Speaker 2: you a job, and I said, sold, I got a
2:25
Speaker 2: ten percent and got a job at a mental health
2:28
Speaker 2: hospital and never looked back.
2:30
Speaker 1: Since it's wow, So hold on a second, so you're
2:34
Speaker 1: still funny. So it's interesting to hear you say, I
2:39
Speaker 1: guess interesting but not but not unexpected that you know,
2:44
Speaker 1: coming coming being a first generation Mexican American, like mental health.
2:49
Speaker 1: You know it's one one diagnosis, loco, that's it. So
2:54
Speaker 1: when you got the job in that hospital, how were
2:58
Speaker 1: you viewed? What did your parents and say?
3:01
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting is so not only do I
3:04
Speaker 2: have the Hispanic side right like you just you beat
3:06
Speaker 2: the trauma out of kids. That's how you get through it.
3:09
Speaker 2: And then I also came from a colt. I was
3:12
Speaker 2: raised in a colt. So you either pray it out
3:14
Speaker 2: or you beat it out. And so yeah, that combination
3:17
Speaker 2: I think at the time with my age and I
3:19
Speaker 2: was trying to pull away from all of that break
3:22
Speaker 2: through and kind of find my own way. So this
3:25
Speaker 2: opportunity not only was it something that like guided my career,
3:29
Speaker 2: but on a personal level, I became really curious about what,
3:35
Speaker 2: you know, what this looks like when other individuals struggle
3:37
Speaker 2: with things and at the time, it really was like
3:42
Speaker 2: a lot of CBT that was used, like cognitive approaches,
3:45
Speaker 2: but we worked with high risk populations, so it was
3:47
Speaker 2: a it was a level one facility, so it's you know,
3:50
Speaker 2: they're hospitalized. Obviously there a lot of them were either
3:53
Speaker 2: core ordered to be there, and there was a lot
3:55
Speaker 2: of kids that I I just really couldn't act did too,
4:00
Speaker 2: because I think being a kid with untreated ADHD, you know,
4:03
Speaker 2: my own trauma, my own systems of oppression. I guess
4:09
Speaker 2: you would say I had a heart for them. I
4:11
Speaker 2: really wanted to understand how to help them. And I
4:14
Speaker 2: I know now that had really driven a lot of
4:17
Speaker 2: my curiosity, a lot of my desire to better understand
4:21
Speaker 2: and also confront the things that aren't working, you know
4:24
Speaker 2: that don't take these things into consideration. And so I
4:28
Speaker 2: realize now how much my own experience really drove a
4:32
Speaker 2: lot of like what I have sought, you know, and
4:34
Speaker 2: continued moving through.
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Speaker 1: It seems like you were like drawn to that person,
4:42
Speaker 1: to that hospital in a sense. So the cult, what
4:48
Speaker 1: where is this Mexico.
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Speaker 2: New Mexico. I mean there's stillund yeah, but it's like
4:54
Speaker 2: the you know, first of all, as Hispanic woman. It
4:56
Speaker 2: was education was not something that was promoted. Did you
5:00
Speaker 2: know My mom had a third grade education, my dad
5:02
Speaker 2: eighth grade, So college was never a thing I thought
5:04
Speaker 2: was on the table. And then being Mexican American, not
5:07
Speaker 2: knowing the language, I thought I was dumb, like I
5:09
Speaker 2: did not do well in school from kindergarten through you know,
5:13
Speaker 2: my first attempt in college and then you had you know,
5:16
Speaker 2: I didn't know I was adhd so I was always
5:18
Speaker 2: getting in trouble and then I in the In terms
5:23
Speaker 2: of the religion, the cult are very fanatical beliefs where
5:27
Speaker 2: you cannot read or listen to anything that doesn't come
5:30
Speaker 2: from the church. Women are not allowed to wear pants,
5:32
Speaker 2: cut their hair, wear makeup, have an opinion. You're supposed to.
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Speaker 1: Tell you your whole family was in the culture.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, my entire family. And so that's the entire community,
5:43
Speaker 2: you know, and so if you if you leave that
5:46
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you are damned to hell. You're
5:49
Speaker 2: everything is fear based and h it, you know, very strict,
5:54
Speaker 2: and so to break away from that. But then also
5:57
Speaker 2: have a mom who was untreated, she was adopted, did
6:00
Speaker 2: and had severe trauma, still has severe trauma, but her interactions.
6:05
Speaker 2: So there was the physical verbal abuse, and then there
6:07
Speaker 2: was the you know, oppression, and there was the you know,
6:10
Speaker 2: first generation not knowing the language, not knowing the culture,
6:13
Speaker 2: and living in two worlds because home was different from school.
6:18
Speaker 2: So I have a lot of compassion for my little self,
6:20
Speaker 2: for my younger self, because you had to be a
6:23
Speaker 2: warrior to get through all that and kind of find
6:25
Speaker 2: your own way, which is why I have so much
6:28
Speaker 2: passion for the misunderstood. You know that it's it's not
6:31
Speaker 2: as easy as thinking differently. It's you're wired a certain
6:35
Speaker 2: way and you go to what you know, kind of
6:38
Speaker 2: like your mother tongue, right, you know, someone speaks to
6:41
Speaker 2: me in Spanish, I'm like, oh, that's familiar. It's not.
6:44
Speaker 2: You need to step outside of it to be you know,
6:47
Speaker 2: very to be successful in this country. But I understand
6:51
Speaker 2: why we get stuck in the familiarity or were drawn
6:53
Speaker 2: to it, whether it's helpful or not.
6:57
Speaker 1: What is okay? So I want to talk about critical
7:03
Speaker 1: memory integration before we get there. So you're in this hospital,
7:08
Speaker 1: what how do things evolve for you such that you're like,
7:14
Speaker 1: oh my god, this I really like this Where I'm
7:17
Speaker 1: drawn to this or I feel like I can help
7:20
Speaker 1: or I can relate.
7:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at first it wasn't so much that
7:25
Speaker 2: I thought I could be in a position to help.
7:28
Speaker 2: I just wanted to better understand. And that probably comes
7:30
Speaker 2: from you know, is not knowing English and wanting to
7:34
Speaker 2: understand English. I thought that was necessary to be able
7:36
Speaker 2: to succeed in that world, in this world, And at
7:39
Speaker 2: that time it was I had just left like the
7:42
Speaker 2: church at nineteen almost twenty years old, and so I'm
7:45
Speaker 2: still discovering what the world is about. So when I
7:48
Speaker 2: start this job, I'm seeing individuals. You know, I care
7:51
Speaker 2: about people I love deeply, So like a kid would
7:54
Speaker 2: get arrested because they violated their probation and I'm bawling,
7:57
Speaker 2: you know, I'm like, oh, we needed to help them.
8:00
Speaker 2: And so you come in thinking that help looks a
8:02
Speaker 2: certain way, and so I wanted to understand what is
8:05
Speaker 2: it that we could do differently? And I could tell
8:09
Speaker 2: you it was one specific case that I still can
8:12
Speaker 2: never forget. A thirteen year old kid who had attempted
8:15
Speaker 2: to take her own life for that I don't know,
8:18
Speaker 2: twelve thirteen, fourteen times, and she came in I only
8:22
Speaker 2: worked at that specific job for like six months, but
8:24
Speaker 2: I saw her come in three rounds and each time
8:29
Speaker 2: was more horrific than the last. And I remember she
8:32
Speaker 2: had come in and they put her in this room
8:33
Speaker 2: where she had a stack of paperwork this big to complete,
8:37
Speaker 2: you know, about what thinking airs she used, why she
8:39
Speaker 2: was thinking wrong? And my heart just broke because I
8:43
Speaker 2: could see the pain in her eyes. I could see
8:45
Speaker 2: to do the stuff she was doing. It just something
8:49
Speaker 2: didn't connect to me. I'm like, how could how was
8:52
Speaker 2: doing a worksheet going to resolve this thing that is
8:56
Speaker 2: clearly such a wound in her soul, like at a
9:00
Speaker 2: deep level that it goes against what humans usually do,
9:05
Speaker 2: you know, which is with the self mutilation and that
9:08
Speaker 2: really those are the cases that just stuck in my head.
9:11
Speaker 2: It was the humans that stuck in my head that
9:14
Speaker 2: drove these questions of better understanding what is it that
9:17
Speaker 2: we're doing? What are we doing with people?
9:20
Speaker 1: So where does that lead you? What do you start
9:23
Speaker 1: to do?
9:24
Speaker 2: So when I left there, I actually kind of became homeless.
9:29
Speaker 2: So I was moving to Phoenix with my brother, and
9:31
Speaker 2: I had a colleague who saw me, who saw what
9:34
Speaker 2: I was, you know, passionate, about He said, when you
9:36
Speaker 2: get to Phoenix, look for a nonprofit that's going to
9:39
Speaker 2: be different than what we're doing here because this is
9:41
Speaker 2: a corporation. And so that's what I did. I looked
9:43
Speaker 2: for a nonprofit. I found one that worked with at
9:45
Speaker 2: risk youth, very human oriented. When I started there back
9:49
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, I was working on the
9:52
Speaker 2: floor as a behavioral health technician, and I loved that
9:56
Speaker 2: they put kids first. You know, everything was about kids
9:58
Speaker 2: come first. And the growth process for me kind of
10:03
Speaker 2: aligned with the growth process for the organization because at
10:06
Speaker 2: the beginning, you know, I worked with juveniles who had
10:09
Speaker 2: committed sex offenses, so they were adjudicated and at the beginning,
10:15
Speaker 2: back in two thousand and one, because it's a level
10:17
Speaker 2: one RTC, mean, these kids are too unsafe to be
10:20
Speaker 2: out in the community. So they all came from jail.
10:23
Speaker 2: They were all court ordered to be there, so kind
10:25
Speaker 2: of against their will, they're doing therapy and so we
10:27
Speaker 2: had a lot of violent kids right So at the time,
10:30
Speaker 2: we used to use you know, hands on interventions where
10:34
Speaker 2: you do restraints TCI training and we have maybe like
10:39
Speaker 2: eighty six restraints a month or something like that. Over time,
10:42
Speaker 2: longer I worked there, we started moving towards a more
10:45
Speaker 2: trauma informed approach, and by the time in two thousand
10:50
Speaker 2: and eight, two thousand and seven, maybe we had gone
10:53
Speaker 2: to zero restraints a month. I think there was one
10:57
Speaker 2: year where we had one, and so I knew there
11:01
Speaker 2: was a different way of doing things. Right. You can't
11:03
Speaker 2: force people to change, and so I learned a lot
11:06
Speaker 2: through that process about how to be more effective. And
11:10
Speaker 2: I do realize now that those that wisdom. I would
11:15
Speaker 2: say that experience has driven a lot of how I
11:17
Speaker 2: practice as a clinician as well.
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Speaker 1: So break it down, what how were they interacting with
11:25
Speaker 1: the kids when you were getting those eighty six episodes
11:29
Speaker 1: a month to when you guys were getting one episode?
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Speaker 1: What were you doing differently specifically?
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Speaker 2: So at the time, we used a program that was
11:37
Speaker 2: about limiting and leading, limit and lead, So essentially, you
11:40
Speaker 2: confront the behavior, you stop, you know, you try to
11:43
Speaker 2: control the environment, you try to control their behavior, and
11:47
Speaker 2: eventually I think the theory is like they get used
11:51
Speaker 2: to this other way of being and they change. Right.
11:53
Speaker 2: The problem was even the kids who did well and
11:57
Speaker 2: let's say they were no longer violent, I would see
11:59
Speaker 2: the leave successfully and within a month they're in prison
12:03
Speaker 2: because they killed somebody or because they went back on
12:06
Speaker 2: drugs or sold drugs or whatever happened. And that was
12:09
Speaker 2: a huge driving question, is like, how is it that
12:12
Speaker 2: this kid has a potential to do so well and
12:14
Speaker 2: yet the moment they're out of the environment, it's like
12:17
Speaker 2: they revert back to what they know and that there
12:19
Speaker 2: really is what a trauma response is is like, your
12:22
Speaker 2: nervous system is going to override your logic and it's
12:26
Speaker 2: going to do what it needs to do to survive. Right,
12:29
Speaker 2: So out thinking your nervous system is not effective. And
12:33
Speaker 2: so as I started understanding trauma as we as an
12:36
Speaker 2: organization as well where I was working, started understanding how
12:39
Speaker 2: trauma impacts behavior. We started shifting our approach to structuring
12:45
Speaker 2: the environment, to looking for signals signs that the individual
12:50
Speaker 2: was escalating instead of stepping in when they're already crossing
12:53
Speaker 2: that line. And I think that made us more effective
12:56
Speaker 2: in the sense that a we kuld do like earlier intervention,
13:01
Speaker 2: but be the kids that were able to catch themselves
13:05
Speaker 2: learned enough about themselves that they also started realizing they
13:09
Speaker 2: could do better right, so the outcomes would improve it
13:12
Speaker 2: and I think that's one of the angles that I
13:14
Speaker 2: have learned that I was seeking, how do we do
13:17
Speaker 2: that more help the individuals see themselves differently, not be
13:22
Speaker 2: controlled externally, rather be connected internally so that they understand
13:27
Speaker 2: what's happening and it's not just I'm a bad kid,
13:30
Speaker 2: or I'm never going to learn, or I'm just a criminal.
13:32
Speaker 1: You know.
13:32
Speaker 2: So I really grew like a very strong distaste for labels.
13:39
Speaker 1: Wow, so inspiring, man, And you could just feel that,
13:45
Speaker 1: I mean so much of the people in prisons could
13:47
Speaker 1: probably benefit from this, Pa.
13:49
Speaker 2: Oh my god. You know, like seventy of people in
13:53
Speaker 2: jail were in foster care at some point in their lives.
13:56
Speaker 1: It's a huge though, that's a huge.
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Speaker 2: That's a huge to me. I'm like, if you want
14:02
Speaker 2: to change the world, you got to start off not
14:05
Speaker 2: trying to stop the crime, but understand why it happens.
14:08
Speaker 2: Understand what kind of human would go out there and
14:10
Speaker 2: make these choices. And if you understood their story, you
14:13
Speaker 2: would see what is driving that, and if we could
14:15
Speaker 2: treat that and help them with that, then you know
14:18
Speaker 2: the changes are gonna happen from the inside out instead
14:21
Speaker 2: of trying to contain it and control it.
14:24
Speaker 1: Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Stefana Johnson. Okay, so, CMI,
14:31
Speaker 1: what is it? How are you utilizing it? Go?
14:36
Speaker 2: So, if I was to break it down, I would
14:38
Speaker 2: start with the things that we were missing. Right, So,
14:40
Speaker 2: if you go to a therapist, like the way I
14:42
Speaker 2: was trained a person, the therapist might help you understand
14:45
Speaker 2: how you think, change the way you think. You know,
14:46
Speaker 2: don't be so black and white. Regulate your nervous system.
14:50
Speaker 2: You know. So I'm starting to get angry. That was
14:52
Speaker 2: my go to response as a survival. So do your
14:55
Speaker 2: breathing techniques, regulate your emotions. And all of this is
14:58
Speaker 2: what I call a surface level of approach, because the
15:01
Speaker 2: thing is what differentiates me from someone who doesn't struggle
15:04
Speaker 2: with the things that I struggle with. Our life experiences. Right,
15:08
Speaker 2: if you did not have the level of disrupted attachment
15:13
Speaker 2: that someone like me might have had, then you had
15:16
Speaker 2: the experience of a safe, connected relationship. You had the
15:19
Speaker 2: experience of feeling valuable, of feeling and control of understanding
15:23
Speaker 2: yourself internally. And those who have particularly complex trauma didn't
15:27
Speaker 2: have that supportive environment to develop these things. So trying
15:32
Speaker 2: to address issues with a cognitive approach, meaning like change
15:36
Speaker 2: the way you think. It's like taking the apples off
15:39
Speaker 2: an apple tree and putting oranges on there, Like it
15:42
Speaker 2: looks okay at first, but it's going to grow apples
15:45
Speaker 2: back because it's the roots, right, is what defines it.
15:49
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to better understand how it is
15:52
Speaker 2: that we even get there in the first place. And
15:55
Speaker 2: so we had a whole team because it's not just
15:57
Speaker 2: one person, you know, we need multiple individuals to bring
16:00
Speaker 2: in both their expertise, their experiences, their individual you know,
16:05
Speaker 2: mindsets that we theorize. It's there's something that happens earlier
16:11
Speaker 2: in our experiences that drives the way we think, the
16:15
Speaker 2: way we interact, the way we see the world. That
16:18
Speaker 2: is what we call critical memories. Now, there are a
16:21
Speaker 2: lot of memory reconsolidation, which is, you know, approaches that
16:25
Speaker 2: work with memories, but the limitation was a lot of
16:29
Speaker 2: them target like either the cognition or the body response
16:34
Speaker 2: or images, right, and so this could be part of it,
16:38
Speaker 2: but it doesn't always encapsulate all of it. Right, So
16:43
Speaker 2: if I have an experience that happened early on, let's
16:47
Speaker 2: say when I was three months old, I'm not going
16:50
Speaker 2: to remember the story. I'm not going to have the images,
16:52
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be aware of the negative cognition,
16:54
Speaker 2: but the memory is still there. So how is it
16:57
Speaker 2: stored through a physiclogical response right in my body? It's
17:02
Speaker 2: an experience, and so what CMI does it's helping individuals
17:08
Speaker 2: connect to themselves and learn to tune in to what
17:12
Speaker 2: we call the signal to get to that experience, whether
17:16
Speaker 2: it be something that you can recall consciously or something
17:20
Speaker 2: that you just know at a deeper level. We work
17:23
Speaker 2: with it no matter how it shows up. You don't
17:25
Speaker 2: have to connect it to anything of how you think.
17:28
Speaker 2: It reveals itself and it happens internally. So the difference
17:32
Speaker 2: with this approach is truly the individual is the expert.
17:36
Speaker 2: I'm not the expert. I might be the expert in
17:38
Speaker 2: terms of the practitioner, but I don't know where your
17:41
Speaker 2: mind's going to take you. So an example might be
17:45
Speaker 2: like a person says why do I do this thing
17:48
Speaker 2: in relationships? And people might be like, oh, your attachment
17:52
Speaker 2: style okay, but what about my attachment style? So, like
17:56
Speaker 2: I had an individual who felt worthless, this feelings of worthlessness,
18:00
Speaker 2: they could try to out talk their way, regulate whatever
18:03
Speaker 2: feelings come up, try to change how they view it.
18:06
Speaker 2: But when we did see Ami, it actually connected to
18:08
Speaker 2: a very early and all she could say was I
18:11
Speaker 2: was itty bitty, itty bitty. After we processed, she disclosed
18:16
Speaker 2: she had been a child that had been the result
18:20
Speaker 2: of a of an assault on her mom. Right now,
18:23
Speaker 2: I would argue, you can't remember that, but somewhere her
18:27
Speaker 2: nervous system experience what she later identified as rejection, as
18:32
Speaker 2: feeling worthless.
18:34
Speaker 1: So, okay, a word for it. So you're you're did
18:38
Speaker 1: you develop critical.
18:41
Speaker 2: On the development team? Yes, I would say, we more
18:44
Speaker 2: uncovered this, this pattern, this process and turned it into
18:48
Speaker 2: a modality that could be used that could guide the
18:50
Speaker 2: clinician in guiding an individual through it.
18:54
Speaker 1: So let's keep with this this. We'll say, client, this woman,
19:00
Speaker 1: this one, how do you work with her? How do
19:05
Speaker 1: you begin to work with her? What does it look like?
19:07
Speaker 2: So the biggest part, and we do this we talk
19:10
Speaker 2: with clinicians a lot about this, is we have to
19:13
Speaker 2: work with ourselves first, make those connections within ourselves, because
19:17
Speaker 2: anything about how I interpret your experience can get in
19:21
Speaker 2: the way of you connecting to your experience. Right, because
19:25
Speaker 2: if I come in with what we call an agenda.
19:28
Speaker 2: So let's say a previous modality that I was a
19:30
Speaker 2: trainer in looked for images. Right, So if I already
19:33
Speaker 2: have that agenda in my mind, I'm going to ask
19:36
Speaker 2: questions that are going to lead to an image because
19:38
Speaker 2: that's what we're looking for, because I believe that's where
19:40
Speaker 2: the answer is. CMI teaches you to get out of
19:43
Speaker 2: the way. So as a clinician, we are trained to
19:47
Speaker 2: just stay present with the experience and understand recognize the
19:51
Speaker 2: pattern so you know where you're tuning in, and to
19:53
Speaker 2: put parameters around it. What I mean by that is
19:57
Speaker 2: think of it like an experience. I call it digesting
20:01
Speaker 2: an experience. What is like integrating, Right, If you have
20:04
Speaker 2: a plate and you shove the whole thing in your mouth,
20:07
Speaker 2: you're gonna choke, right, So you need to put parameters
20:10
Speaker 2: on it, meaning one bite at a time to swallow digest.
20:14
Speaker 2: And so that's part of the process is when when people,
20:17
Speaker 2: instead of getting flooded, we teach them how to tune
20:19
Speaker 2: into one thing at a time, a specific thing. As
20:23
Speaker 2: you go through that, we call that sensation emotion expansion.
20:27
Speaker 2: So there's a feeling or sensation that comes up that
20:30
Speaker 2: we call the signal and tuning into it without activating.
20:35
Speaker 2: We use curiosity, non judgment, all of those things that
20:39
Speaker 2: are catchphrases, and you see them, you hear them all
20:42
Speaker 2: the time. But what does it look like in actually?
20:44
Speaker 1: Okay, but let's get more specific. So this woman sitting down,
20:52
Speaker 1: how do you start? I mean, yet you've done all
20:54
Speaker 1: the intake stuff.
20:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do.
20:56
Speaker 1: You say, why are you here? Tell me about what's
20:59
Speaker 1: going on?
21:00
Speaker 2: Well, you could, right, you could, because whether you're here
21:03
Speaker 2: because you're stuck in a pattern, or there's a memory
21:06
Speaker 2: that keeps popping up, or you're getting panic attacks out
21:10
Speaker 2: of nowhere, or you know, you have a fear of cups,
21:12
Speaker 2: whatever it is, there is always something that's happening in
21:16
Speaker 2: your body. Right, So your body response is what we
21:19
Speaker 2: call the signal. So if you were telling me, hey, Steph,
21:22
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm afraid of blue cups. Every
21:24
Speaker 2: time I see them, I start having a panic attack,
21:26
Speaker 2: you know, And so I might say, okay, when I
21:29
Speaker 2: hold this up, what do you notice in your body?
21:30
Speaker 2: What's happening in your body? And I teach you to
21:33
Speaker 2: tune into that signal? Now, here's the challenge. A lot
21:36
Speaker 2: of people when they have that discomfort, they want to
21:39
Speaker 2: alleviate it. Right, the tightness comes up in my chest
21:41
Speaker 2: and I want to do breathing techniques so that I
21:43
Speaker 2: can make it away. We're doing the opposite, and that's
21:46
Speaker 2: what makes you THEMI different is we're helping you hold
21:49
Speaker 2: that space and the parameters to move through it to
21:52
Speaker 2: see what it reveals to you. Because there's information is
21:55
Speaker 2: trying to relate to you.
21:57
Speaker 1: Now, so let me just introdect you for a second.
22:00
Speaker 1: So when you were saying, okay, hold on to that
22:03
Speaker 1: to feeling whatever that's coming up, are you asking them to?
22:07
Speaker 1: Are there images coming up? Sound? What are you doing?
22:11
Speaker 2: It happens organically. This is the beautiful part. My role
22:16
Speaker 2: is really to help you stay tuned into that signal
22:19
Speaker 2: and not derail because here's the way the brain works.
22:21
Speaker 2: We have what are called memory networks. Right, So if
22:24
Speaker 2: I'm telling you right now, I'll give you an example.
22:27
Speaker 2: I'm talking about a fruit bowl and I'm telling you
22:29
Speaker 2: there was bananas I may eskmchas last night. I don't
22:32
Speaker 2: know if you know what.
22:32
Speaker 1: That is, but it's a I don't, I don't it's.
22:35
Speaker 2: Delicious, but it has like bananas, apple strawberries, and then
22:38
Speaker 2: it has like a cream stuff that you put on
22:40
Speaker 2: it with granola. But if I'm telling you about this, right,
22:44
Speaker 2: and you go through and the word banana was there,
22:46
Speaker 2: but you went through to the apple strawberries and the rest. Right,
22:50
Speaker 2: That is how sometimes people process or they're moving through things.
22:55
Speaker 2: If I was doing it the CEE on my Way,
22:57
Speaker 2: I would have you pause on the banana and really
23:00
Speaker 2: in the banana and remember what it smells like, what
23:03
Speaker 2: it tastes like, you know, the like as you open it,
23:06
Speaker 2: the texture. Now you're really tuning into the banana, right,
23:11
Speaker 2: that one thing. So here's the anger. Pause with the anger.
23:15
Speaker 2: What is that experience like in your body? What are
23:18
Speaker 2: you noticing as you sit with it? And what happens
23:20
Speaker 2: is your brain is digesting that signal, right, it's treeing
23:25
Speaker 2: on that before it goes to the next one. Once
23:27
Speaker 2: it's done, it'll reveal the next thing. And what's happening
23:30
Speaker 2: is that memory network is revealing itself because there's different
23:33
Speaker 2: aspects that are part of that memory network. We're activating it.
23:36
Speaker 2: The moment I say apple, your brain jumps to the
23:40
Speaker 2: Apple network. It's no longer in the banana network? Does
23:43
Speaker 2: that makes sense? So if you have a complex situation, like,
23:47
Speaker 2: for example, had an individual that had been assaulted, you know,
23:51
Speaker 2: as a child, and we targeted like the flashbacks and
23:55
Speaker 2: the nightmares. This I had worked with her when she
23:57
Speaker 2: was a kid, and she came to me as an
24:00
Speaker 2: adult because she said, Steph like, yeah, those things are
24:03
Speaker 2: taken care of, but I keep putting myself in situations
24:07
Speaker 2: that I know are dangerous and I'm getting assaulted again.
24:10
Speaker 2: What's going on here? Well, the thing is that what
24:13
Speaker 2: we missed doing other approaches, and what CMI caught for
24:17
Speaker 2: her was how she survived that assault. At five years old.
24:21
Speaker 2: You cannot just bounce out. You can't say no. So
24:24
Speaker 2: your nervous system learned that by appeasing and complying, we're
24:29
Speaker 2: going to live through this. Right at five years old,
24:32
Speaker 2: that's the only choice you have. But now, as a
24:34
Speaker 2: young woman, you have other choices. But if you haven't
24:36
Speaker 2: updated that network to include the fact that now you
24:41
Speaker 2: can walk out that some dude gives you the creeps,
24:43
Speaker 2: You can say no, you don't have to go to
24:45
Speaker 2: his house, you don't have to accept a date, and
24:48
Speaker 2: they it's like this unconscious like they could think of
24:51
Speaker 2: it logically, but to actually facilitate it in the moment
24:55
Speaker 2: when they feel creeped out, when they feel discomfort, nervous
24:58
Speaker 2: system kicks in. I got this, Yes, this is what
25:01
Speaker 2: we do. Let's appease, let's go with it, roll with it,
25:04
Speaker 2: and then we're gonna live. That's where we get stuck.
25:09
Speaker 1: I mean, that's very intense. It's so crazy because you know,
25:14
Speaker 1: to hear you talk just reminds me of how quickly,
25:18
Speaker 1: and whether whether you're a therapist or not, many of
25:22
Speaker 1: us are just blindsided by these big emotions that people
25:26
Speaker 1: have or these behaviors that they have, and we just
25:30
Speaker 1: so quickly go to that without doing what you're you're
25:35
Speaker 1: doing here, which is which is breaking it down on
25:38
Speaker 1: this kind of microscopic level. You are allowing things to
25:41
Speaker 1: unfold very naturally.
25:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you have to have the safety there for
25:46
Speaker 2: it to happen. Your brain wants to heal, your heart
25:49
Speaker 2: wants to heal, Right, that's why you're seeking for something.
25:52
Speaker 2: But if you don't have the right because I can't
25:55
Speaker 2: guess what your brain recorded, you don't even know what
25:57
Speaker 2: your brain has in there. So it's about learning how
26:01
Speaker 2: to tune in and teaching how to tune into that,
26:05
Speaker 2: and we both discover where it's at. You know, simultaneous
26:08
Speaker 2: is such a beautiful, sacred process, but it requires us
26:13
Speaker 2: to as the clinicians, to be able to go within
26:16
Speaker 2: ourselves right because otherwise my signal will get tangled up
26:20
Speaker 2: with yours and I won't be able to guide you.
26:23
Speaker 1: Now, let me just step aside here for a second
26:25
Speaker 1: and talk about that for a second. How was that
26:29
Speaker 1: for you, that whole process when you started were that
26:32
Speaker 1: experience when you started saying, I got to start looking
26:35
Speaker 1: at my own stuff, well.
26:38
Speaker 2: I didn't even know I needed to look at my stuff.
26:40
Speaker 2: This is what's crazy. And I tell people I'm like
26:42
Speaker 2: my own guinea pig because as we started practicing these
26:45
Speaker 2: concepts and we knew as therapists, you know, we got
26:48
Speaker 2: to try it on ourselves and see what what gives.
26:50
Speaker 2: I would never three years ago when we started this
26:53
Speaker 2: whole process, I've never I haven't met the criteria for
26:56
Speaker 2: PTSD when you talk about flashbacks, nightmares, you know, the
27:00
Speaker 2: kind of typical stuff. I'm pretty resilient. I mean, I'm
27:04
Speaker 2: like I was born in that environment, so I just
27:07
Speaker 2: dust off and keep moving on. What I didn't learn
27:09
Speaker 2: to do was half compassion for myself, right to acknowledge
27:14
Speaker 2: the pain and the anguish that that little girl or
27:17
Speaker 2: that younger version of me didn't have the time to
27:21
Speaker 2: feel or experience. So it was interesting because we call
27:24
Speaker 2: them signals, and we learned to start tuning in. And
27:27
Speaker 2: there was times where I couldn't not sit with it right,
27:32
Speaker 2: Like there was something and it was like, I can't
27:33
Speaker 2: think if I don't figure out what's happening here and
27:36
Speaker 2: I could tell you. I mean the very first experience
27:40
Speaker 2: where I had a colleague that got curious with me,
27:43
Speaker 2: like where did you go? I was really upset about
27:46
Speaker 2: something and I'm like, what do you mean? Where did
27:47
Speaker 2: I I'm sitting here in front of you. We were
27:49
Speaker 2: on zoom, but all of a sudden, I got this
27:51
Speaker 2: image of being inside an egg and I'm like, I'm
27:54
Speaker 2: in an egg And he didn't judge it. He's like,
27:56
Speaker 2: like it was normal, right, And it was from when
27:59
Speaker 2: I was three years old. I saw like the little
28:01
Speaker 2: girl almost peeking out. And there was fascinating this experience
28:05
Speaker 2: for me because I realized, you know, with the attachment
28:08
Speaker 2: issues my mom was adopted had severe trauma. And another
28:12
Speaker 2: person that I had worked with, an energy worker from Hawaii,
28:15
Speaker 2: had told me, you were three years old when you understood,
28:17
Speaker 2: when you realized that your mom could not give you
28:19
Speaker 2: what you needed, and it was then that you decided
28:22
Speaker 2: you would care for her. And that always stuck in
28:25
Speaker 2: my head. But this was like a visceral experience of
28:28
Speaker 2: a moment when it was I don't know, but I
28:31
Speaker 2: could tell you that was pivotal in terms of everything
28:35
Speaker 2: else that unraveled. And I became aware of that was
28:39
Speaker 2: not only impacting me in my personal limitations. And I
28:43
Speaker 2: wouldn't say I would never cross the threshold. You know,
28:45
Speaker 2: I've been happily married for twenty years, we have two
28:48
Speaker 2: kids that are amazing. I'm doing okay with my career,
28:51
Speaker 2: haven't been locked up yet, you know, Like I'm a
28:54
Speaker 2: pretty healthy person. But I didn't realize how much, how
28:59
Speaker 2: many limitations and we were there because of unintegrated experiences.
29:06
Speaker 2: So as I went through that, a lot of the
29:08
Speaker 2: CMI sessions that I either did on my own or
29:11
Speaker 2: were facilitated by my colleagues my partners connected a lot
29:16
Speaker 2: of these experiences that I had to better understand why
29:20
Speaker 2: I started working with kids, Why I had such a
29:22
Speaker 2: passion for that, Why certain populations called to me more
29:26
Speaker 2: than others, you know, why I felt this desperation to
29:29
Speaker 2: do something about something that did not impact me, but
29:33
Speaker 2: it was like this drive from within. But also why
29:37
Speaker 2: I was so afraid to step in in other areas,
29:39
Speaker 2: why I was limited and you know, limiting myself in
29:43
Speaker 2: certain areas. All of those things started making sense. It's
29:45
Speaker 2: like the puzzle pieces coming together and get a clearer
29:49
Speaker 2: picture of who you are, which which frees you up
29:54
Speaker 2: to me choices.
29:57
Speaker 1: Man, You're incredible, you know you You exude this passion
30:03
Speaker 1: for your work and for kids, and I can feel it.
30:09
Speaker 1: It's really people for people. Yeah, it's amazing, so inspiring.
30:15
Speaker 1: So what do you do? What are you doing now?
30:19
Speaker 1: Are you working with you seeing clients, You're working with therapists,
30:23
Speaker 1: what all of it? All of it?
30:25
Speaker 2: I don't know. Okay, some people ask me that. I mean,
30:26
Speaker 2: I you know, my primary role is at a Rise Alliance.
30:29
Speaker 2: We continue developing approaches. My goal is to reach the world.
30:34
Speaker 2: I mean, I've worked with I'm also clinical director at
30:37
Speaker 2: a nonprofit for for foster and adoptive kids. So we
30:40
Speaker 2: open up a community center, we're opening up a school,
30:43
Speaker 2: So I wrote the program on that one to help
30:46
Speaker 2: the individuals who work with these kids approach from a
30:49
Speaker 2: capacity building instead of the behavior modification. I've also started
30:55
Speaker 2: off launched off some seminars that I was doing with
30:59
Speaker 2: the city for their staff, like on how to better
31:03
Speaker 2: understand their stress response and reclaim their agency working with
31:09
Speaker 2: you know, hopefully re changing the way we teach clinicians.
31:14
Speaker 2: So there's another university, I'm working with their director on
31:17
Speaker 2: the social work program because we learn a lot of theory,
31:20
Speaker 2: but to really understand how our experiences influence how we
31:24
Speaker 2: interact with clients and how we interpret what they need.
31:29
Speaker 2: So I feel that that's important too. And then recently
31:32
Speaker 2: I was just asked to develop something for the police
31:34
Speaker 2: department for the behavioral health unit, which you know, goes
31:38
Speaker 2: in through how they interact with people in the community,
31:41
Speaker 2: so kind of all over the place, and yet it's
31:44
Speaker 2: the same mission of helping individuals really a understand themselves
31:48
Speaker 2: and what that human experiences instead of pathologizing it, and
31:52
Speaker 2: b learn to tap into their power, learn to connect
31:57
Speaker 2: these things and really access that resiliency that we were
32:02
Speaker 2: born with. You know, kind of wake up to who
32:05
Speaker 2: you really are and what you're capable of. That's kind
32:08
Speaker 2: of my passion. I don't care what the background is.
32:11
Speaker 2: I don't care what your experiences are, because you could
32:13
Speaker 2: have someone who had the I call it the white
32:15
Speaker 2: picket fence life, and they're terrified to do things because
32:19
Speaker 2: they have to follow the rules, right, And then you
32:22
Speaker 2: have one that was born like I was, in adversity
32:24
Speaker 2: and they're terrified to go to this side because this
32:27
Speaker 2: is all they know. And so that that's kind of
32:30
Speaker 2: my passion there all over the place.
32:32
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it all right. So how
32:35
Speaker 1: do people learn more about what you're doing and where
32:38
Speaker 1: they can Where can they find you?
32:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, come to our our website Arizaliance dot org and
32:44
Speaker 2: you'll you'll have you know, we do webinars every month,
32:49
Speaker 2: a lot of opportunities there, and then I believe we
32:51
Speaker 2: give you like our social media handles. We're on Facebook
32:53
Speaker 2: or on Instagram.
32:56
Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll have that all that linked up here
32:58
Speaker 1: at the show notes page at the I'm a Therapist
33:01
Speaker 1: podcast dot com at Stefana. You are friggin amazing and inspiring.
33:07
Speaker 1: Love to have you back at a later time talk again.
33:10
Speaker 1: It's just love it. Thank you so much for being here.
33:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me.
33:15
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be in touch. Take care, okay,