Latest / Non-Billable Hours / Psychologically Preparing for Big Law (w/ Sarah Cottrell) | Law Student Mentorship Series

Transcript

Psychologically Preparing for Big Law (w/ Sarah Cottrell) | Law Student Mentorship Series · Non-Billable Hours

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The thing about big law is that it's not about the work being hard.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the environment being psychologically unsafe in some very fundamental ways.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's particularly difficult for people who became lawyers because so many of us have been on the path all the way through like L set Law School, take the bar, started a firm, and we're very used to like hitting the marks that tell us that we have achieved and those things make us feel good about ourselves.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying it's like bad to want to achieve, but I think the challenge with big law in particular is that even if you're doing an amazing job, you often feel like you have no idea what you're doing, and no one is going to really tell you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sarah Cottrell.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I am the founder of Former Lawyer.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: I host the Former Lawyer podcast.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was that liberal arts major who wasn't exactly sure what she wanted to do after she graduated from college and was like, I like research and writing.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I like constitutional law, which is scrim in 2026 anyway.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went to law school and that's how I became a lawyer.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was in big law for about three years.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: I pretty much knew within the first year, absolutely not, this is a hellhole, get me out.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I left and worked at a legal publishing company for a year.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went to a state court of appeals and I worked like as a chambers lawyer for six years.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And after practicing law for 10 years, I paid off my law school loans and I left law.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And originally I planned to do some like freelance writing, but I also wanted to start this podcast because when I started thinking about doing something else, I feel like you always hear, like, you can do anything with a law degree.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're like, but no, but what can I actually do?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started the podcast in August of 2019, which means it will be seven years old in a couple months, which is wild.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I interview lawyers who have left law to do other things.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I also now work with lawyers who realize I don't want to be a lawyer, but I don't know what it is that I want to do because a lot of us never really developed those the skills that help people make a good career transition.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what I do, and that is what I did.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I also talk a lot about mental health because when I worked in big law, I had a clinical anxiety disorder, which I did not know, and I found out after I left, and that helped explain a lot of things.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: But also notoriously, big law is very not a great environment for mental health, and there are a lot of different reasons for that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know we're gonna talk about some of those.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I talk about that a lot in my work as well.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I realized when I started in Big Law was that maybe this was different for the generation that I started, but the firms were doing a pretty good job of talking about mental health in a good way.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like they knew the right things to say in the beginning.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So they created this illusion that I thought they were more on top of it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, especially because the pipeline to those firms is usually very liberal institutions that seem like they're more on top of mental health.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Generally speaking, I think it I was expecting something a little bit different than what was actually available once I got in.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a trick, too, that kind of messes with people who might buy the initial pitch of a firm.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think I would like to think most people are smarter now, given everything that's happened in the industry, but just in case it's not clear, they're good at marketing in some sense or making you feel like the resources are there, but then it's like how many people even try to use them in the first place?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it is self-selecting where I think a lot of successful law students and successful attorneys usually tend to try to handle everything on their own, don't want to talk about their feelings, just keep doing more work to fix the problem, more try to get more validation from like very cold sources.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: There are patterns.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, I had a question.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Did you start in big law as a did you do a summer associate position or did you start was the first entry point as an associate?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I did summer.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I so I graduated law school in 2008 first, just like for everyone's context.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So like I graduated, and then that fall is like when Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and all that stuff happened and et cetera, et cetera.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I had summered at Sidley in Chicago and I got an offer, but I met someone in law school and we were getting married and we were moving to Houston.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: At the time, Siddley didn't have a Houston office because this was low those many years ago.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to go get another job at another big law firm because I couldn't accept the offer because we were moving to Houston.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that summer class at Sidley, by the way, in 2007 was a hundred people, which just like I don't even know what it is now.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: I it after 2008, it was a precipitous drop-off in terms of the size of the summer class.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Jeez.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I was seeing like Simpson Thatcher's summer class size last year was like 220 or something like that.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Wild.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's insane.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then my summer class at Scaton was like 105.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And my so that was 100 people just in that office.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: So just the Chicago office of Sidley.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not all their office.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's very different.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is very different.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm saying is there were things about my experiences of summer that I think are very different from the experience of someone who's summering now.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because that things never have rebounded to that level.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Probably for the best, honestly.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess I wanted to start off with the general question of why it is that super high achieving law students and like high achieving associates, attorneys, whatever, tend to be psychologically underprepared for big law when they step in.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of students, especially those that have gone straight through or maybe worked in academia or something that's a little less like intense corporate before law school, you can often think that college is really hard.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you went to an Ivy, maybe law school is really difficult.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: You went to U Chicago, tends to be pretty difficult as in terms of T6s.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And but I think it's a very different kind of difficult and it doesn't really translate.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, if you have any thoughts on why it is that once they step in the door of big law, why takes them off guard?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Literally so many thoughts.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So just cut me off when you're like, okay, we gotta go to the next.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think first the first thing is that is just to amplify a point that you made.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think a lot of law students, when they hear big law is tough, they think, oh, it's a lot of work or it's a lot of hours, or like even maybe people are really demanding, but then they're like, What?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I work really hard.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've done all these things.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: I and so there's this sense of, and I think in the past, for many of us who went to law school, it was accurate to assess some other thing and say, I work really hard, that will translate here.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: The thing about big law is that it's not about the work being hard, it's about the environment being psychologically unsafe in some very fundamental ways.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's particularly difficult for people who became lawyers because so many of us have been on the path all the way through like L set Law School, take the bar, started a firm, and we're very used to like hitting the marks that tell us that we have achieved, and those things make us feel good about ourselves.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying it's like bad to want to achieve, but I think the challenge with big law in particular is that even if you're doing an amazing job, you often feel like you have no idea what you're doing, and no one is going to really tell you like, like you are just not going to get a lot of feedback that's like you're doing a good job.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: You also are often going to get feedback that's negative but is like very contradictory.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you might get like, why did you do this memo this way?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: The way this firm does these kinds of memos is blank, and then you memo for someone else.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why did you do the memo?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that I think is the function of law firms in general, where you have a bunch of different partners and senior associates who all have their own preferences and often think of them as like the way things are done, but actually you're just having to like work to someone's preferences.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then also another big piece of it, I think, in terms of people's mental health, is that the law attracts narcissists.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you go to a big law firm, there's going to be some number of people there who are narcissists.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's a huge buzzword that has lost all meaning, but a narcissism is a real thing.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when you work for a narcissist or work in a narcissistic system, you're going to feel gaslit.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, they're going to say, We really care about your mental health.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want you to do things that are bad for yourself.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: But here's 72 hours of work to do in 48 hours.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: How do we square these things?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Often what lawyers do is they're like, there must be something wrong with me, but I can't both do this and also be supportive of my mental health because they're saying they support my mental health and want me to have good mental health.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I must be the problem.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think lawyers in general tend to be people who are inclined to think that they are the problem.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think also I agree with everything you said.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's also this inherent trust for a system because I think lawyers inherently trust a system more than other professions because it's like our whole profession is understanding how the system works and it's set up and the constitution and blah, blah, blah.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: And whether or not you think a lot of that is bullshit or certain laws should be different, et cetera, I still think there is more of an inherent trust in that system, probably because what you're describing is the way you get up to that career path is you do A, B, C, and if you do all the things that they're telling you to do in the right way, you get the job, which is supposed to be the end goal and the reward.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do after you get there?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is it this is the problem?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's pretty accurate.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say, I don't know if there's a set answer for this other than setting up your own support systems or and boundaries, but do you think there is a solution to how people can go into that where it's because obviously, you know, in an ideal world, none of us would have to work in a workplace that's like toxic or has these dynamics.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are stuck somewhere for a certain amount of time, what do you think would be the best strategy for someone to get through that?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there are a couple of things.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: One, if you're not in therapy, you need to be in therapy.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Please, I beg of you, please get a therapist.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, I think it's very helpful to have a therapist who is specialized in trauma because many people come into law school and big law with various forms of trauma that then replay out in their experience of working in the job, but also working in a psychologically unsafe workplace is going to cause you some amount of trauma.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so you need somewhere to be able to unpack that and process that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I think that is really important for people to know is yes, boundaries are super important.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: However, I think that you also want to recognize that there are limits to because what happens sometimes is lawyers will even go to therapy with a therapist who doesn't have experience with what big laws, and they'll be like, but you should just put up boundaries.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: When your boss says, when the partner asks for this thing that's unreasonable, you should just say no, or like you just shouldn't check your phone after X time or whatever things that those of us who have worked in big law know is yes, you can do that sometimes, but you actually can't do that all the time.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think people are often made to feel like, if I was just better at setting boundaries, this wouldn't be this way.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think it is important to go into the situation and decide what boundaries you want to have and also recognize that if you can't put up all of the boundaries that you want to or you find them being violated a lot, it's not because you're doing it wrong.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's because at a certain point, it's to your point about like systems, Bryson, it's the system is such that boundaries are only respected so much.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think boundaries are super important.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that for a lot of reasons, especially because of the work that I do now, I think it's really important to have some amount of contact and like social involvement with people who aren't lawyers.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because the lawyer bubble is a real thing.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us are in it when we come out of law school because we spent three years in law school.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us spent that mostly with other law students.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there's just a very, especially when you're talking about people who end up in big law, there's like a very specific idea of like how the world works and how the working world works, like what is good, what is not good.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think having people in your life who are not part of the lawyer bubble can be extremely grounding and can because people can have this sense of that, I guess this is just how it is.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think having this sense of, oh no, this is not just how it is.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is how it is here, because certain choices are being made by the people in positions of authority in this organization, but it's actually not just like the way the world works.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it makes sense.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's like a yeah, a lot of the, I guess, lowercase T trauma stuff that can happen, and there is capital T trauma as well.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: But like the lowercase T, like low-level things that just repeat and grind people down, are also things that just are very common across every firm.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, and everyone just accepts it mutually.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so you'll tell your friend who's at another firm, oh my God, this partner like screamed at somebody and called them something.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And your friend goes, Wow, that's awful.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody, another partner in some other group did that the other day, or like, I heard a couple years ago someone threw a stapler at the wall or something.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're just like, wow, yep, sucks.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then that's it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, maybe we should reevaluate what's important because I do think also there's a level at which most people operate if we're talking about the top law schools, where it's like, you're not just going to any firm.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: You might be only going to the top 10 firms, which tend to be more pressure cookers than the rest of big law.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are going to be spots if you are willing to trade certain things like prestige or maybe like income potential, if you're a partner, you would have a less toxic experience at certain places.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just across the board world.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's everything is a matter of degree.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it is important to, with the boundary setting, especially, you're not, you're probably not going to be able to keep every boundary you would like to keep.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so you do have to sit down and reflect on which things are most important to you, which things are compl like very bright red lines that you cannot handle, you will not handle, and which things are you would really prefer it not to be this way.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: But if you need to do this for a year or two, maybe it's okay.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I think knowing what those things are for you personally are very important because if you don't actively track that and write it down, you will forget and you will gaslight yourself, most likely, and other people will gaslight you.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then you just it's just things can move very quickly, and you don't realize, especially based on the amount of work output that you're doing at a major firm, you just don't really have a lot of time to sit and reflect and say, Am I happy at all doing this?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Am I miserable?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is this specific thing making me like literally want to die?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I it's just it's not something that people take the time to do, which I think also points to the importance of getting therapy and having that set up.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And even if it's something that you've never done before, or if it's something that you feel like this is a waste of time, I hear this a lot from a lot of professionals in New York these days where it's just, I don't have time to find a therapist.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's really hard to find one, they're expensive, whatever, X, Y, Z excuse.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: There are thousands of therapists.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: You can get them from anywhere in the country at this point with remote stuff.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: You're making a lot of money.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can probably afford it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing being it doesn't have to be a perfect fit.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like just you just need to be talking to somebody that is professionally trained.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's better than nothing.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something I always try to push people in my life to do.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are a billion excuses you can come up with, but you need to have that release valve and that set structure and time where you are stepping back to like, okay, what is happening?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: How is it going for me?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Am I okay doing this?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess not too, I want to make this as honest but not too dark.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, but I I would rather people be worried enough to set up the support infrastructure for themselves before they start as attorneys, rather than think that everything's gonna be completely fine because of XYZ.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And going back to the question I had about you starting as a summer associate, what did you the red flags or fault lines, did those show up to you at all while you were a summer, or were those hidden properly and they didn't come up until you started more as a full-time associate?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: I personally feel like I did work as a summer, but I had like very little like visibility into the true experience of what it is to be a big law associate.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's a big difference between getting handed a project by someone who's junior and is like close to you in terms of like practice, time practicing that's like discreet, that you do and then you you return versus the constantly being on call, which is the experience of basically every associate in big law.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I don't want to say that you can't learn anything valuable from the summer experience, because I think that you can, but I think that you have to be realistic about what the limitations are of that type of role in terms of really giving you a sense of what it is going to be like to actually work at the firm full time.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just wanted to circle back briefly to the like to the you were talking about someone at a firm screaming or whatever.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an episode of the podcast that I did maybe two years ago, and the title is the no asshole rule, because often when you're interviewing with big law firms, someone will say at some point, like, Oh yeah, we have a no asshole rule here.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And to be clear, what I said in the episode was like, that's bullshit.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, that is not true at any firm.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Often people think it's true, maybe because their own experience at that given point, as I don't know, a partner or a senior associate, is that it's not so bad.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: But like the idea that these systems that are like in some ways inherently toxic do not have any toxic people within them is a complete fantasy and is part of why lawyers start at law firms and feel crazy because they're being told we have a no-asshole rule.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, they're being given work by someone who's being an asshole to them.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, I must just be weak.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I must just be oversensitive, whatever, not tough.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I must be oversensitive.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just like the many ways in which I think those of us who are high achievers have learned to internalize and blame ourselves for the ways that people treat us because it's the only way to continue, just continues to run behind the scenes when people are in big law.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: I also think I guess we have regressed a little bit in terms of a society, but I think for a while culture was centering mental health and boundaries and respect in the workplace and having to people are gonna have to change to keep Gen Z like in line because they're gonna leave if it's not aligned with their morals.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure big law students and big law attorneys are a very specific slice of society that though you may understand that those things are important, it's just I just feel like people don't actually implement them.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or when you get to a firm, again, when you start seeing those things, it's too late because you're already there.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because they hide it.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also something to say is okay, so it's the spring of 2026 right now.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's still a lot of most leadership in most law firms are boomers and Gen X.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that there is some hope that as more millennials move into leadership roles in all organizations, but in law firms specifically, that there will hopefully be some sort of movement on some of these things in a positive direction because I do think that there's a difference between Gen X and millennials.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Gen X being boomer light and millennials just being, I think that the generation, that generation, much more so has been raised with an awareness of all of these things, that all of these things actually do matter.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that all the millennials at law firms are like super mentally healthy, or if it gets for mental health, but I do think overall there is a generational element that, especially when we're talking about things like what is truly effective for mental health, hopefully there will be some of somewhat of a shift.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we there we are seeing the turnover from boomers to Gen X has mostly happened at most law firms, or is happening like basically right now.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's probably important for me to peel back because I know a lot of people say bosses are assholes or things like this happen.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I think understanding the economics of why it is that people who are like that still get to power positions in firms is important.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, at the end of the day, like law firms are just corporations are trying to maximize their returns at the partnership level, reduce costs, all that stuff.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the main lever of success in that system is just bringing in more client dollars.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so at the end of the day, firms do not really inherently value soft skills or managerial skills past the point of bringing in business and keeping clients.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are a partner who is extremely toxic, but for whatever reason, major clients in the industry think you're extremely effective and a good attorney for them to have, they're not gonna really know if you're a dick to your the people that are working below you, and they're probably not gonna care much as long as you get their work in on time because they are also corporations that are increasing their bottom lines.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of where it comes in, and there's not a lot of there's no financial mechanism to really reward great leadership and team building much.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: The compensation structure of partners and big law is shifting a lot towards origination and things like that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if you whoever brings in the most is gonna have the most power, more or less.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe back in the day with lockstep compensation for partners where it was just based purely on seniority.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that would make it better or worse, to be honest.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, even if someone is an amazing attorney and an amazing mentor and boss, if they can't bring in business and bring in more money for the firm, they're not gonna get more power.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there'll be like one token partner who's this is the nice partner who has basic emotional awareness and she sits on the executive committee, but it's still what it's one person.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is part of what can be very can So here's the thing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of us became lawyers, care a lot about right and wrong and doing the right thing.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's easy to have this sense of doesn't everyone care about doing the right thing, especially if you are neurodiverse, which a huge percentage of lawyers are neurodiverse, either have ADHD or autism or both, or like something in in that ballpark, which means you are much more likely to have a much higher, like a much more intense sense of like justice and injustice.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what happens either you experience mistreatment at the hands of a partner who brings in a lot of business and has a big book of business, or you see someone else have that experience and your brain is, my gosh, this is like so wrong.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, someone's gonna do something about it.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then no one really does anything about it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: If they might actually like spirit the person who received mistreatment away in an attempt to hush it up.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it I think it feels so contrary to what we expect as people who tend to be very like right and wrong matters and justice matters, that it can feel very and it can be very inconsistent with everything that a firm says about like what's important, how they handle things, et cetera.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is really key for people to be aware that if someone has a big book of business, they it is very rare that a firm is going to do anything to them unless they think it creates exposure for them.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And even then, it's only if they think it's like an amount of exposure that is enough to actually make the person's book not useful to the firm.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is the kind of calculus that's being made.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I I've had a client, one of my clients, I worked with people in all different parts, but one of my clients was a former big law partner, and she said part of why she left is that she reached the point where she was like, I felt like we were letting people abuse other people for money.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And to be clear, this is not me saying you shouldn't go to big law, because honestly, like there are lots of people who want to go to big law for at least some period for all kinds of reasons.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I am not saying that you should, but I do think you need to understand that this is the dynamic.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem so often is that lawyers get into this dynamic and they think it's their problem, their fault.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: They think if I just said the right thing to this person in the right way, if I just did this project or did this, sent this email, or it's very much the mentality that you see in a relationship with an abuser where it's if I just did everything perfectly, then this would not happen.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is if you did everything a different way and it was somehow perfect, it would still be happening because it's not really about you and like what you're doing or not doing.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And two important things on that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: One, what you were explaining with having an inherent sense of justice and then being in a system where you see an injustice happening.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is a huge level of cognitive dissonance that happens where you just it like breaks your brain a little bit.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So your brain will convince itself that, okay, no, wait, the victim here must have done something that was kind of they must not be a good attorney, they must have been competent.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because if somebody has this much power and success in a system that you think genuinely is a meritocracy based on all these other values, then the only other answer is that the person on the the pointy end of the stick is at fault, whether it be you or a colleague or anything.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also in the incentive of the firm to make that make that narrative seem real.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I've also never seen a situation.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I've never seen a situation in big law.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I and through my own eyes or like through working with a bunch of people that basically said if you are receiving unfair treatment or abusive treatment and you speak up, the only answer is that you are spirited away.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like you are moved out of the situation.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: The best case scenario is that you're moved out of the situation and you don't have to deal with that problem partner.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe you're able to still advance in your career through another channel, through other partners who have power that you click better with, who are nicer and healthier.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: But oftentimes it's just you're pushed out of the firm or you're just you're iced out and they make it so uncomfortable for you that you leave on your own.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: So that is very common.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I that's something I really wanted people to understand going into it because they set up, and again, I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I've seen so many situations where it's not at a certain point, it would be insane to not say what you're saying because the pattern is so clear that it's like denying reality.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: So they set up these levers and systems very similar to how firms parrot mental health.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: If something happens, you say something, you report it to HR, you report it to somebody, and it goes up the chain of command.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you report anything to a partner and like almost any HR professional, they are legally obligated to report that to the rest of the partnership, and then you can get screwed.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes some firms will have specific positions that have very strict outlines where it's like this person cannot report to the partnership, cannot report to leadership if they hear something from an attorney.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: My last firm, Freed Frank, had something like that, which I found extremely valuable, and everything was spelled out on what the legal protections were and how literally this person cannot share information.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, people still break the laws and still break contracts, but it's another protection to consider.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen any situations in big law where somebody experienced something not above board where they were able to have it handled and everything ended up okay?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or know of a couple situations they tended to be either like very extreme.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Again, where cynically I would say there was just too much exposure for the fur to not do something, or they tend to be like extremely mild relative to what can sometimes happen.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And to be clear, this is not to say if you're working in big law and something happens that you shouldn't report it.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the thing that I want for people is for them to know what, to have some idea of what they can expect when they report.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because most people I work with who've had some sort of experience like that, either nothing happened in a situation where something of some kind should have happened, or that's maybe like 50% of the time.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other 50% of the time, basically it was like you're a problem because you're pointing out that there's a flaw in the system.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we now need to remove you from the system.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And to be clear, again, I'm not saying that's right.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that's good.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it's just, but I think that especially if you are someone who cares a lot about justice and injustice and something deeply wrong happens to you, which does happen at these firms in many different ways.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: You have this expectation that, like, if you tell someone, they will do something about it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that is reasonable and sane.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is a rational thing to think.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want people to be psychologically prepared for the reality that the system tends to protect itself and not the individual participants.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Who do you think, or how do you think someone should handle, like who should you report to?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think my inclination would be depending on the severity of the problem, but even if it's in the middle of the road, I would probably consult a labor and employment attorney, to be honest, before I would officially report anything to the firm, just to see what's the liability scope here, because that speaks to the exposure as well.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think someone who for their job negotiates against firms and employers with like settlement agreements and other kinds of things, it would be good to get their take on, hey, do I have something here?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is this going to cause the firm financial pain if I press in the right way?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's all math, because these these systems are basically just computer like algorithms when you boil it down.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if what the risk is, if you leak information or if you sue them, is higher than the risk of pissing off this Rainmaker partner or whatever, then you're gonna get what you want.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: But you need to understand the dollars and cents of what may happen either way happens.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: So a couple of things.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: One is that I think it's to your point about consulting with a lawyer.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just because you're a lawyer doesn't mean you're a labor and employment lawyer who deals with big law firms.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like probab a lot of people probably feel like I should just know, first of all, you're in the situation, so there's that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Also, you may or may not actually be sleeping a reasonable amount and be in your right mind.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And also, it really is a, in many ways, it is like a math question.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that one of the things that is most shocking to lawyers when they start in big law to like new lawyers is that law firms are probably the worst offenders in terms of breaking employment law.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason for that is that they know how much it takes to prove an employment claim.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can do a lot and not really worry that it's gonna blow back on you in any sort of like meaningful legal way because the cost of bringing the lawsuit to the individual is so high compared to the potential return.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds insane.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: And could you spell out what the costs to the individual bringing that?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, there's like the actual cost.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Although if you're bringing a good claim where you might recover, you probably can get someone to do it on contingency, but nonetheless, like the emotional cost, because I guarantee you, if you sue them, like it is like it's not even if not even if you sue them.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Often if you just leave a firm and go somewhere else, there is this weird protectionist instinct that's okay, now we're going to tell everyone that this person is like terrible at their job.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's like anyone who has anything negative to say, it must be because they like couldn't hack it, essentially.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And like, for example, if you are in a position where you're going to sue a big law firm, you are most likely saying, I'm not going to work in a big law firm, another big law firm again.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Because why?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because the systems, even though everyone, every firm tries to be like, but we're a different-ish, maybe.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is that like anyone who's like a a whistleblower is seen as a potential liability.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because even though people know that there's probably merit to their claim, the people who are most entrenched in the law firm systems have a like vested interest in not believing, and not believing that the person is really telling the truth or believing that they're exaggerating or that they knew what they were getting into, or et cetera, et cetera.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's essentially the decision to sue would basically be saying, I don't want to work at a big law firm anymore.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: At a certain level, big law does not control like every possible legal job.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not saying I'm not going to be a lawyer anymore, but the likelihood that you would be hired by another large law firm is extremely Yeah.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think even if you do believe if you're part of law firm leadership, a big law leadership team, and you a hundred percent believe the accusations of somebody who's suing their other big law firm, there's no way you feel confident that nobody at your firm is gonna slip up and do something that's out of bounds.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that happens, and if this person is part of your firm and that becomes the culture of your firm, you're gonna be sued next, most likely on something, because I think everyone inherently knows that big law is toxic structurally in many ways.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: No one, no, literally no person who works in big law can rationally and reasonably think this place is not toxic on some level.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: If they think that, they are diluting themselves, period.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to understand that you are at heart dealing with people who are deluding themselves at least on some level about some things about the place that they work.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think especially when you're thinking of I'm a big believer of, I think pockets of safety do exist.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are like certain groups at certain firms, certain partners that you can actually have a healthy experience.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: But you have to put so much work and effort into finding those pockets, or maybe you get lucky and you just stumble into it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: That would be great.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: But even if you do have those pockets, the people making overall hiring decisions, it's gonna be more than just that partner, more than just that group.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And they are not going to open themselves up to risk like that to hire somebody who is known to whistleblow, even if it was 100% in the right for them to do that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think the best way to go about it, and you can't really do this without having the risk of going to court, but the best way to go about it would be threatening a lawsuit, I think, if it was there, and then getting a settlement and NDA, and then you can move to the next firm without them knowing anything ever happened, but you always run the risk of the firm being like, we know you're not gonna sue us because you're not gonna tank your career.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: So try to sue us.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're screwed.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's also this crazy thing, which I was thinking about it in terms of antitrust and like cartel violations.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I've ever seen a situation where a major law firm helped sue another major law firm, like uh in an employment dispute.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't think I've ever seen that.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point about there being like pockets that are good.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so my personal experience, like the people who I worked with for the most part, were like really decent people.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: It like was tangentially on some things with like partners who were known to be bad, but I didn't have a lot of direct.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: So my individual experience at my law firm was mostly like free of all of the horror stories that you hear.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you're you see it all the time.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're adjacent to it all the time.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: You might not have a bad experience with someone you're working for of someone else who did.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like the point being, like, it is possible to not have the worst of the worst experience, but that doesn't.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is an element of making deliberate choices that's involved there, but there's also an element of luck and who is available when to do what, and what are your hours, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not busy, you don't have as much control over whether you say no to work that is brought to you.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think often lawyers are given the false impression that like they have a lot more control over the experience that they're having at a big law firm than they actually do.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because the reality is that there are even things like the fact that there's a billable hour, like there are forces at work in the system that curtail your ability to like you can only there is an element of luck, and sorry, also not only is there an element of luck, but there's a whole separate thing, which we haven't talked about at all, which is like the inherent biases at play and the ways that like you will see two lawyers be treated very differently by the same person, because that person who is typically a mediocre white man relates more to one than the other.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also a huge piece of the experience that I think goes into what can feel so gaslighty for some people, because of the fact that again, we often as lawyers tend to assume that we are the problem.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason we are being mistreated is because we're not doing what we need to do, as opposed to things that have nothing to do with us.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: I also think there's a thing that happens when because I try to tell people often that you're probably not the problem.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like 99% of the time, you're not the problem.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when you're talking about people who like went to the best schools in the world, performed very well, had leadership positions, have big networks, you're probably not the issue.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: But doesn't do good work.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's literally that is statistically almost impossible.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Statistically wildly unlikely.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: And but I've seen that play out directly in my job now with recruitment where I'll work with a person who I know is amazing, and they just convince themselves that they are like crap, and then they'll move to a better fitting firm and they're like a rock star at the next firm.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like, see, like you get so in your head, and then people will be very appreciative because sometimes and sometimes it is time to step back from the industry, but other times you could find something that is a much better fit, at least for another couple years, and there are financial realities at play here too.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's definitely it's just like a fit thing, it's a toxicity thing, it's a structure.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you just get bad luck and literally, it could just be the day that you start, the partner that is in charge of your workflow has a really bad day and you rub them the wrong way for something you had no real control over, and then all of a sudden you have this negative bias at the top that kind of skews everything.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a thing as well.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: But if is there what specific advice would you give to two scenarios here?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: One, a top law student who knows for sure they're going to big law and they know that they want to be there for the long haul, like they would like to be a partner somewhere that pays comparably.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe they'll do a boutique or something.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, that could be part of the advice.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: But is there what's the best way for them to go about that journey and minimize damage or just have the healthiest experience possible?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Caveat being that nothing's gonna be perfect, there's always gonna be issues here.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: But if you had to give advice to somebody who was knew they had to do that path, what would you suggest?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, number one, you for sure need to be in therapy.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need to be in therapy now.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you said earlier, Bryson, about like writing down priorities, very helpful.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I often work with my clients on is what are the things you absolutely must have and recognize that you that you will have to defend those things.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't it can't be like 27 things.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not that's not it's not workable.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you're just gonna constantly feel like you're failing if you're trying to do all the things.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: You need to accept what you can control and what you can't control, and what is a what is a thing that is going to be an absolute no-go.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that it's really helpful to have not only to be in community with people who aren't lawyers, but also to be in community with lawyers who are in a similar position to you, who also have a similar approach.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because and by approach, I really mean values, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like ultimately what we're talking about is values because everyone has different values and the values that are most important to you, if you find some people who share those values and are dealing with similar like systems can be helpful, not even to get advice how to fix them.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Although if you can fix them, that is amazing.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm super thrilled for you.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: More just so you don't feel like you're crazy.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the things I hear the most from people, and like one of the things that comes up has come up the most in interviews with lawyers from Big Law who have left the law for other things is that there's this sense of I must be crazy because this is a job that everyone wants, and this is a job that I worked towards for so many years.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I I'm seeing things or experiencing things, and it feels like that is not consistent with whatever, am I just nuts?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so just literally just knowing you're not crazy.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing is if you're someone who isn't necessarily, I want to be here forever, all the way up through partnership, and you're just like, I want to be here for like X number of years, that it can be really helpful to be like, okay, and what is my plan going to be after that?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I work towards that?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the things that I have observed since now I work a lot with lawyers who are wanting to leave to do other things, not everyone who I work with is I'm gonna leave in three months.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Some people who I work with are like, I'm gonna leave in two years, or I'm gonna leave in five years.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that they talk about is like having a lot of relief, even when they're still in a system that is not great, just like having a plan and knowing like what it is that they are going to do next, as opposed to just having this sense of someday I won't be doing this question mark.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think that if you're someone who goes into big law and you're like, I'm here for the long haul, I'm here until partnership, like when I think it is really it would be really useful to, as you're moving up through the ranks, to get some coaching on management from people who are able to coach on, I don't know, emotional intelligence and a lot of other things that are you just aren't going to get at all in the law firm, really.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: And because that's not what they so, in other words, if part of why you want to move into partnership is to help these institutions change.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: I hear that a lot.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you should also be working on what do I need, how do I need to be as a leader in order to do that?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are a lot of people in leadership in big law right now who started thinking, I want to make a change, but ultimately you make so many trade-offs in on the path into leadership that by the time you get there, you've forgotten why you wanted to be there in the first place.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another thing that I think can be really helpful in terms of tolerating some of the harder parts of that journey.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you are being intentional about preparing for how you could make it better, that can help to give some purpose the experience that might otherwise not feel great if that is something that you're ultimately wanting to do.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And another good time to write it down.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you're writing the things that keep you going, the things that take energy from you, the things that give you energy and your values, if you have a plan for specific changes that you would want to see in the industry, write them down somewhere so you can because it will change over time.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: You'll experience things will soften.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be a natural drift that feels healthy, but you still want to be able to have the reference point to be like have the change too much.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: I use the analogy of if you're in the ocean and you go somewhere, there's like a natural drift that have you pick a point on the land.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you're like, that's where my towel is.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: I need to make sure I get back there.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't look up and check to see where that reference point was, you can end up like with no way back.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's the analogy I try to use and writing it down and having it written somewhere that you can reference later, I think is a really important mental trick to do.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's also one of the one of the reasons in terms of writing the list of things that give you energy and take energy from you.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: You can start doing that in law school because yes, the tasks will change and the power structure will change, but the when you boil it down to very specific things, okay, meeting new people makes me happy.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: Working together on a team to get something done makes me happy.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or I don't know, fill in whatever you want.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Public speaking drains me.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Any adversarial like contact drains me.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like you need to figure out what those little boiled down things are, because that'll also help you pick like practice areas and firms and things like that can make you happier overall with the in the little day-to-day things.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you gotta track that.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and one thing that we haven't really talked about a ton, but I think is also really important when you're thinking about mental health, is burnout.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't read the book Burnout by Amelia and Emily Nagoski, it's a very I found that book to be very helpful.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason for it, in part that I found it to be so helpful, is it talks about the way that our nervous systems work.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of like when we go into fight or flight, our nervous systems are designed to go into fight or flight, achieve the thing that the fight or flight is supposed to achieve, and then come back down.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to, they call it completing the stress cycle, like in order to complete the stress cycle, like you have to, it's a literal like physiological nervous system thing.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just, oh, I need to be less stressed or whatever.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for a lot of so burnout is super common in the law and not just in big law, but also in big law.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a big part of that is that when you're in a an environment that is very intense, you are experiencing fight or flight for very, excuse me, sustained periods of time.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's very important to be aware of that, to be aware of the degree to which that is like an autonomic nervous system thing.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is not something that's in your control if you go into fight or flight, but it you can do things that will like downregulate your system to go from like sympathetic to parasympathetic.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: They talk about it more in the book, but it can literally be things like if you get an email that like makes your heart rate go up because you're like, it's it's from some asshole or whatever, or like opposing counsel is like being a jackass or whatever reason, like something like sometimes something like just throwing a bunch of punches or something where your body is like literally moving the adrenaline can make a huge difference in how it impacts your nervous system and how much like stress or trauma gets stuck, which is not to say that if you're traumatized by a traumatic experience, then it's your fault.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that, but I think there are ways that you can support yourself when it comes to burnout, which is so closely associated with anxiety and depression and has so much overlapping, like the symptoms to often overlap.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there are things that you can do that that even if you're in a system where burnout is a feature and not a bug, which is essentially big law, right?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: You at least can do things that will support your nervous system in being able to process some of the like extreme amounts of adrenaline and cortisol that you experience.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to expand because I'm trying to be very comprehensive, but the reason why my understanding of why burnout is a feature of big law is just the pyramid shape of talent and how the profit mechanisms work of a firm.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: So the way that partners get profit is you essentially you have to have armies of like juniors and mid-levels, and there's a natural attrition that happens where if it doesn't happen naturally, then the firm has to lay people off or push them out, or there are ways that it's done.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: Some are direct and they'll fire you, let you go.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Other times they'll say a couple things to you that are confusing to push you out, or they'll say, Hey, you're not partner track, so you might want to, I don't know, maybe find somewhere else.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is a natural thing where they hire very large entry-level classes because they anticipate that a huge chunk will burn out.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think the overall rate of associate turnover in big law is like 25%, something like that.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like uneven across different class years.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: But so the burnout is needed, and they also view it as if you get through the people who get through the pressure cooker of certain levels are more better suited for leadership later or whatever.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Usually it's just like people who can deal with more toxicity or who are unhealthy with their own boundaries.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was interested in the compartners.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here's the thing, here's a very important thing to know as well.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know so many people who are in these environments and are like, what's wrong with me?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because this other person over there seems to be fine.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I'm like emotionally and mentally and physically cratering.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, you have no idea what kind of coping mechanisms that other person has going on.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is highly unlikely that they're just like doing super great in every way.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Statistically, again, it is like basically a 0% chance.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: So just because you can't see the particular coping mechanisms that someone is using doesn't mean that everything's great with them.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I think a big important piece of that is again the values piece.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you work with someone, for example, let's say for a lot of people, family is really important to them and like spending time with their family is really important to them.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not true for everyone for lots of reasons.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's just not a value.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they have like super shitty family that they don't want to spend time with.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're someone who's making who makes it a priority to see family, whether it's extended family or like immediate family, and there's someone else who isn't doing that, it's not that they're better than you or you're worse.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's just a matter of values.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very dangerous.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: People get in a position where they think I could do everything that I'm doing now that's important to me, and also not be as crushed by this as X and such person over there.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that is just, it's just a, it's not true.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like a, it's not, it's just not accurate.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think the other thing to remember is like there are some people who are go who have it easier because of the ways that they're perceived.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: There are, there are people who can be more incompetent and like fuck around more and not find out to the same degree.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're comparing a lot of those things can be hidden too.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: There can be situations at some of the firms.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would meet people who are super calm, associates the same level.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, why are you so calm?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how are you, everything's so easy with you?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then I found out one of them, their uncle, is like a rainmaker at the firm.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they kept that hidden.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't tell us that.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like the associate didn't really talk about it much.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then actually, two others, their family were huge clients of the firm.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: So they're like insulated from fat.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are the those of us out here who like have no lawyers in our family and are just like grinding basically.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, that's not to be like, I don't know, doom and gloom.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just to say it is reality.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think lawyers in particular are so conditioned to think I'm just not as good as that other person.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing what that there's something wrong with me.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: That I have some sort of like deficiency.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it is so rare, to your point.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you're a lawyer who like went to a top law school and you got hired by a top law firm, like it is not, you are you're not bad.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're not an imposter.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're not none of those things that often people tell themselves are true.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like those aren't true.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's the system has a vested interest in keeping you feeling insecure about yourself.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because the more insecure you feel, the harder you're gonna work and the less you're going to make problems for them.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, which is why I feel like big law attracts a very certain type of person, which is the type of person that has to prove something or constantly needs validation from a system or whatever.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the other, I guess, like final thing I want to make sure I hit is that there, the way that work product is assessed in a big law environment is very different from how it would be done in an academic setting that most students would be used to.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of schools they have blind grading where someone's reviewing a test and they don't know who it's from.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: And there are other like multiple choice things and other ways to kind of balance biases.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Even I've noticed there are courses that courses where the professor can tell who's submitting what assignment, or courses where they grade participation in terms of cold call performance, way more biased in terms of outcomes.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, like a black student would be scored lower than a white student just based on the perception of their answer, even if on the face of it they're saying the same thing.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that can happen in an academic setting, but it's more rare, I think, nowadays.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: But in big law, everything is attached to your name, everything is attached to the way that leadership perceives you.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you have some control over it with the way that you can play office politics or build relationships, which I really try to get people to focus on very early.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: But at a certain point, there are racial and gender biases and cultural biases that come into play that you just cannot really shake, or they take a lot of effort to overcome that bias.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: I forget what it's called, but there's just something that happens where if someone has a perceived bias about a specific race or gender and you do something that directly cuts against an assumption they would make for that group, it rejiggers how they view you, and the stereotype doesn't apply to you naturally.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So there are certain ways to break it, random.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: In my experience, I've seen, or my theory is a lot of why I was successful, even as a black attorney in big law, was because I'm half Jewish and I was like the president of the Jewish Lawsuits Association.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: So one, that's another commonality point I could have with partners who were Jewish.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing is it just like breaks people's brains a little bit sometimes.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, oh, you're like, okay, I can't really put you in this box, really.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll just grade you a little bit less.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's no automatic sorting that happens.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: But there have been actual studies.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: I forget the organization that did this, but they took in like a hundred big law partners and had them grade work product assignments from people, and they gave some people like black names and some people like traditionally white names.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: Same amount of errors, same amount of points made that were valid.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe the difference in grading was like three notches.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: So if you got like an A, if the white person got an A, then the black person would have gotten a B minus.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: Does that track?
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a proven bias that's gonna happen with all of your work product that you need to overcompensate for.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a very unfair system.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of my people, the people in the program that I'm doing, the students that really consume my content, are going to be people that are facing those biases.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: And they're you like, I don't think it's changing anytime soon, and you're gonna have to do more work to overcome it.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to be aware that is how it works, regardless of how liberal the institution is.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're going to face those barriers.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to plan ahead for those types of things.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: And also accept and I guess not congratulate yourself, but give yourself credit for getting as far as you have and doing the extra work to get half as far.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because those are the realities.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe someday it'll get better.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: But it's very clear based on our current political environment that we are not that far along.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: To be clear, acknowledging that these things are real is not, I'm not saying, and that's totally cool.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's terrible.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sucks.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's so unfair.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot tell you.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And like Bryson, I know I've told you this before, but like I work, again, I work with people who are like a year out of law school, who are like 20 years out of law school, all over the place.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: And by far the people who I the people who I've worked with who I think have been treated the worst, like just by but in big law are my clients who are black women.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like just the everything that you're talking about is it's so egregious.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: I sorry, I'm like not even totally coherent because it makes me really angry, but it like and that's not to be like, therefore, be discouraged, therefore don't go.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what I hate about that the most is that having that experience can be very can have a very significant impact on how someone views their own one, their self-worth, but also their ability to do the job.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And to the point that you made, like sometimes you just need to move, like go somewhere else.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Even though you know that going somewhere else, there's still gonna be like some of the same stuff because it's everywhere.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like the reality is that especially if you're in a position where you are working with someone who is like a true narcissist, and a lot of you will end up working with someone who's a true narcissist, like narcissistic personality disorder, like just go somewhere else.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is there, there is a point where, and this is why I think it's so important to be working with a therapist.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a point where you recognize this person is like psychologically torturing me, and I get me out of here.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's it is a very infuriating reality of the experience in big law that I think is important to recognize, even insofar as even to the extent that you're like, why is this other person like able to like do this?
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't, like I said, that I can't hack it.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like no, you're doing like that, you're you are trying to achieve actual perfection because that is being expected of you to have the same perception as someone who's like hitting 65% perfection on a really good day.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think because his uncle is a rainmaker at the firm.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think these are all the good points.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just glad.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think the most important part of this is just yeah, breaking the spell of it and just trying to give people multiple perspectives of the system.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think for a very long time, coming up through law school, big law is such a shiny achievement and like the pinnacle of success.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you work on the coolest stuff with the smartest people and all these things that they tell you, which may be true.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: That may be the pinnacle of practice in certain ways, but that doesn't mean that it's healthy and it doesn't mean that it's without serious systemic problems that you're going to come face to face with.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you're lucky enough not to come face to face with it, your colleagues, your friends, like your partners are going to have bad situations.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: And being aware that this can happen and having a even a rough playbook of how to handle that is really important.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing, like you said, if a situation is bad enough, even if big law has all its overall problems, even just a hard reset of moving from one spot to the other with this new knowledge where, okay, I navigated this situation, I know what to look out for now.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can do a better job at this spot because I know how to secure away from these people earlier.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: I can reset my reputation, whatever.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Every firm's paying you the same amount of money.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: There are like 80 firms that pay the exact same amount of money.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to be at SCADN, you can go to Davis Polk, you don't have to be at Simpson, like any firm example you want to use, they're very interchangeable.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: The only difference would be like Wachtel.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you're getting paid double, that's if that's worth your entire life and uh yeah, your psychological like integrity, like the integrity of your psyche.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I was just gonna say one more thing that I think is really important.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you and I have talked about like the idea of a whisper network before, but like you were saying a little bit ago, what would I recommend to someone if they were in a position where they were, for example, feeling like they needed to consult with a labored employment lawyer?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I would also say reach out to Bryson or the people who you have, because there are people who've been in these environments who you can talk to about this, these, the things that have happened and they can tell you're not crazy.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because it can often, it can often feel like I must be wrong.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think having connections with people who either hear a lot from a lot of different people at a lot of different firms, like you or I, or just like who've had that experience previously, I think is super helpful because they understand the dynamics of the situation and can often help you see what is happening more so than you can yourself because of how like how far into it you are.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: And also I think it's a good point of being able to sort out what is going to be a problem at every firm versus what is uniquely bad to where you're at now.
• 1:00:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's a lot of that's half the battle, to be honest, is figuring out is this gonna be everywhere?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think a lot of people use that as an excuse to themselves to stay in a very bad situation, is they just say, Ah, no matter where I go, this is gonna be the case.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll just stay.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not usually the case.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like 99% of the time, that's not the case.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and if it is the case, and if it's something that's that degrading to you as a person, we can find another option.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: There are other career paths that you can do with a JD that don't, you're not gonna be broke.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: You could be a recruiter.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: But good chance.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I think that's everything I wanted to cover.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, hopefully we didn't scare the shit out of every student that watched this.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: I really was not trying to say don't go.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I think there's so many pieces about it that like I personally had zero clue.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: No clue.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know, you're all of these like lovely, smart, and very earnest children, okay, going off to like this system that I just want you to know, like they're they're like you deserve to have good mental health.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: So so if that is not happening in a system like that, then get the support that you need because it's you shouldn't suffer.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's there's always another way as well.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: You just have to be creative enough for it.