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One Leg Up on Remembering Broadway Caricaturist Al Hirschfeld With Tarot Cards Created by Emily McGill 8-31-24 · OneLegUpAlex Media

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Now here's your emostion, Alex.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I do like to dabble in the cultural world. Then,
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: of course in Broadway, because not only did I have
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: a connection with the Schubert Organization when I was a kid,
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: but I used to just love going to the theater.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: And have you ever been to you know, forty fifth
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Street and you've seen a big guy with his big paintbrush.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: That's Al Hirschfeld. That's his caricature on the Hurstfelt Theater.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: And we're not going on the Hirschfelt Theater, but we're
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  Speaker 2: going to someone who's made a tarot set inspired by
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Al Hirschfeld. I'm very excited about with Emily McGill about this. Emily,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: you are the Ivy League witch, but I'm more interested
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: to know about your fascination with Al Hirschfeld to make
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: tarot cards based on his characters.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: This is awesome.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Alex. Thank you so much for having me
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  Speaker 3: on the podcast today. It's great to chat with you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I grew up as a theater kid. I've
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: always it's been a lover of Broadway and storytelling and
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: moved to New York seventeen years ago to work on
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Broadway and spent a long time as a Broadway publicist,
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: and about ten years ago I lost my grandmother and
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: that inspired me to go to therapy and my therapist
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: introduced me to tarot cards as part of our practice,
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  Speaker 3: and it's something I would do in session with her
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  Speaker 3: from time to time.
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  Speaker 4: And then in twenty I guess twenty seventeen, now, yeah,
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, I started looking for a daily practice for myself,
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: just something to do, you know, that had nothing to
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: do with anyone else.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: It was really just for me. And my therapist said,
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: why don't you start pulling a tarot card? And so
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: I started with an app on my phone and that
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: was really the beginning of my love of taro and
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: so broad Herhfeld Broadway Tarot is really a marriage of
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: two of my biggest passions of theater and storytelling and
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: of course the tarot, which I find to be a
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: really impactful and effective psychological tool to use.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I've, you know, gifted tarot cards.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I've worked a little bit of it, but I'm not
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: an expert and that's why I'm having you. But the
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Hirshfeld collection, this seems like a Hirshfeld collection. So let's
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: see of his drawings that he did of all these
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Broadway stars. What did you want to pull out of
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: your tarot card deck of a Hersfeld character?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Like what's your good luck tarro that you made.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: That you like pulling out of the deck and as oh, yeah,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: you know, this is a great character by Al Hirschfeld.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Well, I, you know, I it really started with wanting
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: to have a Broadway themed tarot deck because I am
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: such a fan and lover of Broadway and a member
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: of the community and the industry for a long time,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: and I was looking, you know, to see if there
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: was an option for theater lovers like me when it
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: came to tarot and I didn't see anything really. There
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: were a few people that had done their own thing
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: on Etsy and you know, a discontinued version that I found,
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  Speaker 3: but there wasn't really anything that really really appealed to me,
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: and so I decided to go ahead and make my own.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: And part of the process that was really fun in
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: creating this tarot deck was what we would call casting sessions.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: So I worked very closely with the Al Hirschfeld Foundation
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: creative director David Leopold, and we would sit together at
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: the Algonquin Hotel in the lobby there, surrounded by Hirschfelds,
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: and we would start just discussing what the different cards meant.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: You know, often when people are asking about what why
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: Broadway and Tarot together, one of my favorite answers is
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: that we see these archetypes across both of them quite
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: a bit. And so you know, I could be saying
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: something to you about a character that or a card.
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  Speaker 3: Rather that is all about listening to your intuition, knowing
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  Speaker 3: what right from wrong means for you and your core doing,
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  Speaker 3: following through on the action for what your intuition is
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  Speaker 3: telling you without fearing the consequences, and just knowing that
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  Speaker 3: whatever happens is meant to happen. And I'd be talking
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: about the High Priestess, but it also sounds a lot
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  Speaker 3: like I'm talking about Alphaba. And so this idea that
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: these two.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: True I could see. I could see that connection. That's
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: very interesting to make that connection.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: I actually say, you have Jean Valjean in here, you
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: have a West Side Story, you have my fair lady.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, look at the names, look at the characters
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  Speaker 2: that you've gotten. Now when you approach the Hirschfeld Foundation,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: how excited were they? Like, Yes, we will give you
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: his drawings to make this possible. How excited were they?
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: It was incredible. David was so excited about it. It
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: was very out of sort of left field or unfamiliar
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: for him. He had no experience or relationship with Taro.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: And initially when I thought of this, I didn't think
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: of mister Hirschfeld, to be completely candid, I really was
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: just looking for Broadway characters that represented the Taro, and
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: so like that Alphaba example, I started thinking about really
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: more characters over the last twenty years or so, and
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: mister Hirschfeld passed away in January of two thousand and three,
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  Speaker 3: so one of the last Broadway shows he drew was Hairspray,
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  Speaker 3: So we don't actually even have Alphaba to be able
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: to include her in the Taro because we went with
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  Speaker 3: the Hirschfeld drawings and his amazing over ten thousand images
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: archive that we were able to mine to find the
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: right images and the right characters for these cards. But
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: through the process it was a really beautiful learning experience too,
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: because David was so enthusiastic about the whole thing, and
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: he learned so much about Taro right there with me,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: and I learned a lot about shows or characters or
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: people that I didn't know anything about before, because in
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: addition to.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: I see they have included Stephen Sonheim.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: And I got to say, when you pull out these characters,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: it's almost like a terror deck. It's almost like they're
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: with you, their spirits with you. Obviously lost steven Sonheim
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: a few years ago, but when you when you even yourself,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: you know, work through this deck and you've seen these
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Broadway legends that he drew, un take a step back
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: from it, and old people that get this set take
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: a step back as well and say, wow.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: I just pulled you know, Steven sonhim out of this
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  Speaker 1: Tarot deck. That's something else.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty cool. And you know, I had a
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: beautiful opportunity to honor some people that I really love
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  Speaker 3: in the Tarot deck because Hirschfeld drew them, or that
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: he drew a show that you know they had worked
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  Speaker 3: on or you know, done did a revival love or
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: something like that. So it was really incredible. And one
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: example of that is a Fossy protegee named Lenora and Emmettz,
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: who I know as Auntie Lenora or Auntie Rara, and
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  Speaker 3: she is featured twice in the Tarot Deck, once as
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: the Three of Coins. For Working, which she was in
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  Speaker 3: the original company of, she played Dolores Dante, the waitress
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  Speaker 3: that sings It's an Art, and so mister Hirschfeld had
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  Speaker 3: her included in the drawing that he did of all
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: of the characters that appeared in Working, But the other
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: one that she appears in at is as Veal m
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: kelly as the Wheel of Fortune, and she was the
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: replacement for Cheeta Rivera as as Vell mckkelly in the
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: original production of Chicago. She actually covered both Roxy and
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: Velma and used to tell this amazing story in her
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: cabaret about how she went on as Velma at the
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: matinee Roxy in the evening but to be able to
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: include her And I was recently with her and she
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: was telling me about her experience being drawn by mister Hirschfeld,
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: that she didn't even know what was happening. She was
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: in rehearsal. Chicago was playing the forty sixth Street Theater,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: which is of course now known as the Richard Rogers
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: the Home of Hamilton, but at that point in time
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: it was the forty six Street Theater, and she was
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: rehearsing Chicago on stage, and you know, mister Fosse was
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: there working with her, and she said, there was this
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  Speaker 3: old man sitting in the back. I didn't really know
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  Speaker 3: what he was doing. I didn't really know what was happening.
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  Speaker 3: I was just doing my thing. And here it was
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  Speaker 3: Al Hirschfeld sitting there drawing her as she was rehearsing
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  Speaker 3: to take over as Velle mkelly. And so to be
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: able to hear stories like that from people who are
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: featured in the deck is also pretty cool because that
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: was one of his Friday drawings, and from Laura's recollection
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: of the story, it was Bob Fossey's idea for her
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  Speaker 3: to be featured by Al Hirschfeld in his Friday drawing
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  Speaker 3: in the New York Times when she played Vell mkelly.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Well, this is interesting.
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  Speaker 2: So you know of those that are living that have
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: been drawn by him, and I'm sure there are a lot,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: although I'd say he died in two thousand and three.
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  Speaker 2: So that you know the new generation, you know that
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: the alphabets, the Christian Channa is ideinas.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if they were drawn by him.
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  Speaker 2: But of the older folks that you've gotten to know
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  Speaker 2: that are in this deck and around with us. Any
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  Speaker 2: other stories you could share, you know, Yeah, I was
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  Speaker 2: drawn by al Ertchfeld.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Here's how it went.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know many of them. I know that Donna
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: mckechney is in here. I know that. Let's see, Well,
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: we just lost mis Cheeta Rivera recently. She's in here.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Leslie Ugghams is in here, Liza is in here. Tom
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Cwitt is in here. So there's a lot of people.
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  Speaker 3: But we also go way far back into the archives.
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  Speaker 3: I mean we go all the way back, I think
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  Speaker 3: to nineteen thirty eight with you can't take it with you.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, he started drawing for the Times back
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: in the nineteen twenties, so we're coming up on his
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: centennial of drawing caricatures. And he actually called himself a
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: characterist and not a caricaturist, because his belief was really
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: about capturing the essence of the character.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Well, this is so true.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Emily McGill's who I'm talking with. And I gotta say, Emily,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: when you did all the different you know, you're just
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: equalized about with the high priests. When you did all
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: those analogous things for the Tarro cards, what were you
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: focused on?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Was it the genre of the show was the character?
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  Speaker 1: Like what when you were like okay.
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  Speaker 2: Kind of eleven injustices as Jean Valjean tell us the
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  Speaker 2: psychological you know, how you went into comparing or how
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: you want to say analogaizing though two.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, it was like I mean, really think about
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: it like a casting process, to be honest. I David Leopold,
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: who's the creative director of the L. Hirschfeld Foundation. He
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: and I sat together and I talked to him about
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: I had done quite a bit of casting prior to
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: approaching a Hirschfeld Foundation about this project, and so we
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: would talk about a cards meaning, we would talk about
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: characters in the theater cannon that aligned with you know,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: that sort of traditionally accepted meaning. And what I'm talking
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: about these tarot cards, they are very much inspired by
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: and rely upon the brilliant work that Pamela Coleman Smith
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: did in the original Writer Waite Smith Taro, which is
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  Speaker 3: a tarot deck that the majority of contemporary taro is
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  Speaker 3: based upon that she created in the early nineteen hundreds.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: I believe it was like nineteen oh nine that it
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: was published, and it was Arthur Waite was the sort
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: of driving force behind it, but Pamela Coleman Smith really
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: did all of the artwork and all of the symbolism
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  Speaker 3: that we see and that we follow in contemporary taro.
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  Speaker 3: So these are very much based on her interpretations of
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: the cards. And we started by looking at what the
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: meaning of the card was, and then a character that
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: might embody that, and then we would look at the image.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: So and a good example of this is originally I
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: knew that Pippen was supposed to be the Fool, because
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: the fool is the character that goes on the hero's journey,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: and our taro is set up in two parts. There's
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: a major arcana and a minor arcana, and arkana just
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: really means part, and so the major arcana corresponds to
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: the human soul's evolution or the hero's journey, and so
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: with Pippen going on that hero's journey, it was a
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: no brainer to me, and I told David about it,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: and we pulled up the Pippin image and in the
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: drawing that mister Hirschfeld did, Pippin is on his knees,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: and that is not a very sort of active position, right,
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: That's not very It doesn't evoke the essence of going
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: on a journey. So that card all of a sudden
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: needed to be recast because it didn't the image that
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: we had didn't align with the meaning of the card.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: And so we looked at that.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Recast because I feel like people create these tarot cards.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: You find that's that's a common thing. Okay, well, I've
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: got to make this look a certain way, so we
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: have to cast it in that light. It's very interesting
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: to say that tarot cards could be casted.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: I've never heard it that way before.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Well, it really did feel like casting because we are
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: looking at characters in the theater cannon. You know, I
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: think that if you were making a different type of
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Tarot deck, you know, perhaps you are doing something that's
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: total you know, not that this isn't totally original, but
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: that you're you're not basing something on any pre existing ip.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: You might have a different approach. But because we were
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: looking to sort of matchmake the characters, that made it
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: easy for people who maybe aren't familiar with taro to
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: understand what the card is supposed to mean. So we
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: looked at Dorothy. We thought we could use either the
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Wizard of oz or the Whiz for Dorothy for that
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Fool card, and then very late in the process I
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: was searching for I think, you know, we had maybe
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: like five cards left that we were looking to finalize
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: the casting for, and for some reason or another, I
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: looked up Candide and the image that mister Hershead had
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: drawn of Candide, he's holding a knapsack over his shoulder
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: and it's sort of one of those like sticks with
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: the kerchief tied around it, and that is exactly the
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: knapsack that the fool is holding in Pamela Coleman Smith's
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: original drawing. So it was one one of those lightning
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: bolt moments where I thought, even though we had this
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: idea for Dorothy, ultimately it had to be Candide because
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: the image evoked what I was basing it on so
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: so perfectly. It was so in alignment. So there were
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: moments like that, you know, and there's cards like the
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Nine of Swords, which is a lot about you know,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: sort of being in your head and having a headache
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: and you know, maybe a rumination, and a character like
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Norma Desmond felt like the most appropriate character that we
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: could cast in something like that, and that one was
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: an easy yes, so we don't have both experiences.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: This is so cool, all right, faanmo of the Opera
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: obviously is no longer in Manhattan, which is just it
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: had such a great run. It's kind of sad to
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: see that, to see that happening. But did you include
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: the Phantom and did he draw a lot of the
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Phantom of the Opera as well?
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Phantom of the Opera is in here. I do know
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: that he did that. Mister Hirschfeld did draw Phantom on
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: more than one occasion. There is actually, I believe at
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: the Algonquin, usually in the oak room. I believe there
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: is a Phantom drawing there, and it's one of the
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: few that I think has a bit of color to it.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: Mister Hirschfeld did almost all of his work in black
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: and white because it appeared in newsprint and so it
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: was very democratized art that you could, you know, pick
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: up a newspaper and there it was for you. But
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: in later years and in uh, you know, sort of
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: specific instances, he did use some color in his drawings,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: and so I know that he did that with Phantom.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: But there's that Phantom does not appear in this deck.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: We do have other you know, other characters that are
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: very iconic. We've got a chorus line represented, We've got
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: West Side Story, We've got le Miz. You know, we've
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: got other things that are more deep cuts. You know,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: We've got Timbuckto, We've got oh, I don't know what else, Flora,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: the Red Menace. You know, there are things that are
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: are less familiar or less common commonly known, and that
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: was fun. Part of the fun of it, And what
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: I'm excited about people getting their hands on this deck
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: is perhaps being introduced to characters or shows that they
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: weren't familiar with.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: All right, I know the Need had the documentary on him,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: the line King Al Hirschfeld story. Did you get a
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: chance to watch that and did that inspire this tarot
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: deck at all?
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: I have not gotten a chance to watch that yet,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: so I would look forward to watching The Lion King.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: But ultimately I had the best collaborator I could outside
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: of mister Hirschfeld himself, in David Leopold, because David started
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: as mister Hirschfeld's studio assistant and then became his studio
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: manager before stewarding the foundation that was created after his passing.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: So he really is such an encyclopedia of knowledge and
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: wisdom and information both about the shows themselves, but also
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: about mister Hirschfeld and his process. So you know, I
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: kind of got to skip the line. I didn't have
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: to sit down and watch anything. I got to get
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: everything I could from as close to the source as possible.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: You know, people go to these theaters, right they go
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: to the Schoenfeld. And I got to know Jerald Schoenfeld
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: for a while, now, for a while before he passed away.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: He had to go to different shows. Anyway.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: You have the Schomfeld, you have the Bernie Jacobs, you
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: have al Hirschfeld. My point is the theaters have a name,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: but some even tourists just go in there without knowing
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: the history behind all these great names. Are you playing
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: yourself a historian by doing the Thoro Ducks so saying
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: you know, you're not going to a theater, you're going
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to a theater named after alleged?
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it's not. I don't really fancy myself
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: a historian. I really think of myself more as a
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: spiritual psychologist and someone that is helping people to tap
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: into their own spirituality through this tarot. But it's funny
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: that you named mister Schoenfeld. I also knew him when
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: I was young and he was, you know, still around
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: and the first.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Time I ever saw because Heidi was always up there
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: with him.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, that's my It's another one of my aunties.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Miss Heidi Mathis is absolutely an auntie. And I was
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: visiting Heidi in her office and that was the very
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: first time I laid my eyes on Hirschfeld, and I
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: was like, what is this? It was just magic to
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: see this, you know, to see a stage production come
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: alive in a frame like that was I didn't know
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: what I was looking at, to be honest. And there
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: were several of them that lined the hallway outside of
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Heidi's office, and I just loved them.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: About the first time you met Gerald Schumann, I'm kind
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: of curious to know your relationship with him or friendship
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: with him as well.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was through Heidi when Heidi was working there.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: So it was thanks to I've known I mean, my
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: my grandmother and Heidie's my aunt Jinny, had known each
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: other from the time they were twelve years old. So
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: we go way, way, way way back, and she's known
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: me literally my entire life. And it was really exciting
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: because I actually was gifted by Heidi her mother's deck
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: of tarot cards. So I have Aunt Jinny's tarot cards
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: from the nineteen seventies, which was one of the most
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: moving experiences of my life to receive those and to
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: receive that sort of inheritance from these incredible women that
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: I knew, you know, my entire life. And so thanks
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: to Heidi, I got to meet mister Schoenfeld a couple
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: of times. He was always very kind with us. I
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: was in high school at the time, so you know,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: didn't have much of a relationship with him, but he was,
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: you know, he to me, he was just like a grandpa.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: I didn't really understand his role at the Sheward Organization
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: or anything like that. But of course later on, when
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: you know, when he had passed and the theater was
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: for him, it was lovely to see him being honored
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: that way. But yeah, it's been it's been a wild ride.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: These these cards feel like they have been in my
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: blood for a long time and they finally have been
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: able to come out and meet the rest of the world.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: That's so powerful that they feel like your part. It
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: feels like it's part of your bloodline. That is That's
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: is a powerful statement right there, Emily. I gotta ask
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: you this, Broadway actors typically need something like this to
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: you know, either prep them or you know, I would
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: say Broadway actors can tend to be high strong. I
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: don't know, it just seems like they need something like
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: this to maybe calm them down after a big performance.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Are you finding Broadway stars or flocking to get this
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: tearo set?
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, what's the reaction been from Broadway stars?
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Uh? You know, we we haven't released the deck yet.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: It doesn't come out until next week. I'm not exactly
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: sure when this will run, but you know, chatting with
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: you today, it late August. These are released on September third,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: so not a lot of folks have them in their
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: hands yet, but those that I have shared them with
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: have been very enthusiastic. There's been a lot of support
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: from you, my friends and friends of friends, and I'm
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: just really excited for the rest of the world to
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: finally get to see them.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: I see there's an exhibit.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: It is part of an exhibit as well, because they
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: were telling me there's an exhibit going on.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Is this involving the tarot cards?
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Also I'm not familiar with an exhibit. I know that
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: early on in the process, when I was connecting with David,
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: I had asked a friend of mine who we knew
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: that was at the Hirschfeld Foundation and I might reach
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: out to someone. And at that point in time, the
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: foundation was working with the Museum of Broadway as the
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: museum opened, and so Julie Boardman, who's the founder of
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: the Museum of Broadway, was kind enough to introduce me
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: to David, And so I know that exhibit had happened,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: but I'm not certain about what other exhibits might be
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: in store.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: A couple more questions.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I see our Broadway publish or were Broadway publicist, How
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: exciting of a job was that?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: And what was your role as publicist?
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: It was exactly that. My role was to publicize the show.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: It was to tell the story of the story that
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: was being told on stage. So whether that was you know,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: getting interviews scheduled for actors or directors, writers, you know,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: arranging for performances or TV appearances, lots of backstage photos
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: after the show with you know, celebrity was coming to
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: see the show, so we would sort of gather them
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: up and ask them to do a photo with our
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: stars that we could get released to the media. But
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: it was it was a lot of different things that
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: I got to do during that time. I got to
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: produce some concerts and things like that, so it was
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: really fun, really exciting. I definitely cherished that because I
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: loved cultivating relationships with the actors, you know, when I
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: was working on shows like Billy Elliott and Memphis and
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: First Date Are Raisin in the Sun with Denzel Washington,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: The Lion King, and Aladdin. I've worked with George Takay
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: and Andrew la Weber on their Broadway shows. So it's
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: been it's really run the gamut, and I've had a
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: lot of great experiences. I've gotten to see a lot
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: of amazing theater and meet some really incredible humans.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I will say the creator space, including Broadway stars, they're
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: one of the most welcoming communities to everybody.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: What didn't you say?
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: I would absolutely, you know. I think that so often
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: the kids who resonate with theater and with storytelling in
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: that essence maybe don't necessarily have the easiest time socially
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: in the upbringing. And so there is a real deep
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: sense of community and a fostering inclusion amongst each other. Granted,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: as we have seen, there is a long way to
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: go in so many aspects of inclusion in our society.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: But I do think that the community aspect of the
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: theater is very welcoming and inviting.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Now, I imagine you have Broadway in your blood your
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: whole life. Did you were you on stage at one point?
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Did you want to stay on stage?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: What was your acting experience and do you plan on
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: going back into that kind of Yeah, I.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Don't know if I will ever. I don't know what
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: my future will hold. That's you know. That's a lot
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: of people think of the tarot as a fortune telling
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: or future telling thing. That is not how I use it.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: I don't use it for divination. I really use it.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: I like to say it's like texting yourself a meme.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: There's something in your heart or your gut, but it
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: hasn't made it up to your head yet, And the
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: tarot helps us the way a picture is worth a
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: thousand words, and then we layer a meme on top
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: of it. You know. I think that the tarot really
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: helps us in the same way to navigate ourselves. So
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know what my future has in store, but
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: I did perform. When I was young, I didn't know
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: there was any other way to be involved in the theater.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: I moved to New York knowing that I wanted to
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: be on the business side of the business, but not
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: even knowing what my options were for jobs. I didn't
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: know that there was a whole advertising agency, a publicity office,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: a general manager, a company manager, legal teams, finance teams.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: You know. I really didn't understand that all of that existed,
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: and so not until I started interning for a producer
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: did I start to understand that there was an entire
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: ecosystem and industry that was open to exploration and seeing
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: what role I wanted to play within it.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Do you find tarot grounds yourself? I feel like tarot
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: was used as a grounding device as well, right.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely can be a grounding device. I think
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: there's no there's no substitution for having your skin on
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: the earth, so you know, if you can sit on
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the grass, or stand on the grass or lay down,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean, there's no substitution for connecting with
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: the earth as a grounding mechanism. Tara does help with that,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: but it can also be tricky because some people will
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: get stuck in wanting the answers to come from outside
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: of themselves or wanting something to change, and not necessarily
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: being ready to do the work themselves to make that happen. So,
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: you know, you can find that people have an overreliance
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: on tools like Taro. But I do feel like I mean,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: I personally pull a card every day, and I you know,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: I don't make much meaning of it. Every day. I
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: try and just notice what that card means in the morning,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: and then I go about my day and sometimes I
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: will think, oh, that that aligns with what I was experiencing,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: or you know, ah, oh, well, maybe this will mean
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: something tomorrow. Because that's the other part about Taro is
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: that the cards don't always relay information in real time.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: Sometimes the meaning reveals itself to you days, weeks, months,
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: even years later.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this name, but Shelley
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Ackerman was huge in astrology and she was big on
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: to Row. I think that's one of my influences. And
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: she was, you know, a singer as well. I don't
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: know if you ever heard of that name Shelley Ackerman before,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: but this Commson reminds me of what she was guiding.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: My mom and I do because we lived in the
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: apartment right above her, and she had a whole astrological chart,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and I'm sort of familiar in that realm as well.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Have Do you ever wish, Emily that you were drawn
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: by Al Hirschfeld, knowing what you know about him and
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: seeing all the drawings.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, sure, yeah, it would be incredible. But I
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: also had the delightful opportunity while that Hirschfeld exhibit was
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: happening at the Museum of Broadway, they created a special
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: app where you could Hirschfeld yourself, and so there were
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: different components of Hirschfelds that they pulled for, you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: the hair, eyes and those mouth, facial features, facial hair, hair,
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: like all these different things. And so I was actually
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: able to Hirschfeld myself and.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: See that anywhere, like on Instagram or something like that.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: Well, yes, it might be on Instagram still, but it
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: is actually the author photo we chose for my photo
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: in the Tarot deck. So if you flip through your
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: guidebook back to my bio, you'll see my Hirschfeld yourself
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: right there as part of it, which I think is
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: a lot of fun.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad we're talking about this because real quick,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: you know, AI is on the mutwers, right, and I
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: feel like they're trying to recreate everything. Do you feel
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: like that these originals that you've been able to do
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: will preserve al Hirschfeld And do you find any of
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: these artists in general at risk of being you know,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: copied by AI. I mean you're talking about Hirschfelder yourself.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: That's a little different. I'm just mean in different ways
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: that are not really always good, if you will.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: I think that there, you know, are a lot of
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: good and bad things about AI, and one of them
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: one of the good things is that it can help
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: It can help us in a lot of ways that
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: we might don't even know about yet. The bad parts,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: of course, are that it can be easily co opted
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: for a lot of maybe nefarious reasons and or can
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: you know, cut down on the opportunities for writers and
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: things like that. But you know, I think that the
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: best part about this deck is the fact that spirituality
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: and esotericism and occultism have really blown up over the
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: last I would say maybe ten or fifteen years, but
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: especially in the five years five issuars since the pandemic
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: hit and people a lot looking for a lot of
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: meaning in their lives, and mister Hirschfeld's work is going
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: to be introduced to a whole new generation now because
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: these are people who maybe they were fans of theater.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: They've probably heard of Swiggs, They've probably seen his work before,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: but mister Hirschfeld's work hasn't been, you know, circulated as
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: widely since his passing. Certainly that Al Hirschfeld Foundation is
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: doing amazing work with arts education and bringing his work
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: to young people, but I think that this is a
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: really unique way to introduce a new generation of people
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: to mister Hirschfeld's work.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Really, one last thing, did you find that Al.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Was such a not only just part of the culture
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: of Broadway, but he was commenting on social issues and
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: sense through his artwork.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Did you ever find that kind of express decision as well?
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: I'm sure. I'm absolutely certain he did a lot of
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: expressing of his you know, his beliefs and the social
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: issues of the day. I mean, there is a story
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: that I cannot tell nearly as well as David, but
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: about how he took a journey around the world. I
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: think it was in the nineteen thirties. I could be
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: wrong about that timeline, but he journeyed around the world
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: and threw everything that he saw. And we actually have
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: one of the drawings in the tarot that we have
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: as the ten of Swords we have Papa Gay is
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: listed as the character. Now, of course, Once on This
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Island is a musical that happened in the nineties, but
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: mister Hirschweld never drew. But the image is from a
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: book called Living in the Sun, A Brief History of
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: the African tribes who came to the Bahamas from nineteen
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: thirty nine, and that's something that I could be wrong,
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: but I don't believe it was ever published. Like I
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: don't think this image is one that is seen anywhere
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: other than in the archive. So it was really a
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: delight to be able to share some of the work
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: that maybe won't be seen elsewhere, or that we have
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: a lot of detail work in here, so you'll see
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: a detail of an image that you wouldn't be able
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: to see anywhere else that, thanks to mister Hirschfeld, you know,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: was part of a bigger picture, and we've been able
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: to zoom in and sort of make sure that we're
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: seeing the specifics of that particular image.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: That's so amazing.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: And do you, as a psychologist spiritual psychologist, do you
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: work with Broadway stars of today? Are you involved in
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: that kind of way with Broadway? Do you have clients
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: that you know come to you to preserve tell them
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: their mental health long while acting. It's a strange to
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: act every night, so I imagine they turned to you
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: as well, right.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: A lot of the people that I work with in
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: my coaching or spiritual advisement practice are people who have
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: what is outwardly appearing in a successful life. You know,
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: they've got a good job, they've got a good family,
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: good friends, a good life, but they find that there's
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: still something missing, and so I work with them to
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: help them tap into that spirituality and find that sort
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: of self validation and self worth from within themselves, not
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: searching for it outside of themselves the way it's you know,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: so often easy to do, especially as a performer or
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: someone whose livelihood largely depends on someone outside of you.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Saying yes, And one last thing before I let you go,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: the million dollar question, Emily micguil have you ever been
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: to the Hirschfeld Theater?
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: That's the question I have before we end it.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually one of my favorite Broadway theaters. I
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: love the proscenium. I love like how the space in
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: the house feels. But on the second floor you have
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: all those amazing Hirshfeld prints that you can take a
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: look at, which is really cool. And I actually had
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: the opportunity to work in that theater back in twenty twelve.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: I was the publicist on Elf the musical, the second
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: time that came to Broadway, and I remember specifically during
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: that time, I often would, you know, we would do
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: a press at the theater, you would have to post
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: notice about it on the stage doorboard and so on
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: that callboard. I would walk in and sort of postnotice
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: or whatever I had to do for what was happening.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: But I would rather than like send an interurn over,
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: I would just go myself because there was something about
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: walking into that theater when it was just me and
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: the doorman and the ghost light on the stage, and
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: I would walk in and be able to walk across
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: that stage and stand on that stage by myself, It
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: really felt like I was walking into like a church
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: or a temple, or a mosque or you know, a synagogue,
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: like any kind of sort of spiritual religious experience that
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: people have when they're walking into an empty house of worship,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: Like that's very much what it felt like for me.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: So have I love the Hirschfeld Theater. I haven't been
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: in there in a minute. Mulong Rouge has been there
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: for five years, and so I think the last time
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: I saw mulong Rouge was sort of right after the
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: pandemic came back, So it's been a minute since I've
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: been there. But it's a fantastic building. I love that theater.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Well, my show there was on the Town back in
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: the day, they had Yeah on the Town.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It was Yep, and that was a great musical. It
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: was it was so much fun.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Well, Emily, thanks so much for joining me today on
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: the Alex scatt Podcast Network. Thanks Alex, Well, Emily, Micgil,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: thanks so much for joining me today on the Alex
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Scarett Podcast Network. And if there's a launch party on
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Deeptember third, I'd love to go, but we'll talk about
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: that off air.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: That'd be great. Yeah, thank you.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: We don't have anything planned for that week, but hopefully
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: there will be something happening in the future.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Seventy eight cards one hundred eleven pages, very exciting stuff
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: and very Broadway, so thanks so much for joining me, Emily,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: thank you, Alex