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Confessions of a Big Tech recruiter · The Pragmatic Engineer

0:00
SPEAKER_0: How much can I negotiate?
0:01
SPEAKER_0: Because clearly you're getting an offer.
0:03
SPEAKER_0: There's a baseline.
0:04
Broadly speaking,
0:05
wherever you are,
0:06
just try to understand what it is that the recruiter is working with.
0:08
They're going to ask you to state what your compensation expectations are.
0:12
I think that every candidate is best suited by responding respectfully,
0:17
"I would like to see an offer that the company thinks constitutes the value
0:22
that I have to bring to the table" and sticking with that.
0:26
If any company is not willing to give you an offer because you didn't state
0:30
your compensation expectations upfront,
0:32
they're probably not the right company for you to work at anyways.
0:35
SPEAKER_1: Ask them to put you a fair and honest offer on the table.
0:38
SPEAKER_1: Also, almost every single offer has some room for negotiation.
0:42
SPEAKER_0: What actually happens behind the scenes in tech recruitment?
0:45
Recruiters and hiring managers working at big tech and startups do know,
0:48
but they might not share their unfiltered thoughts,
0:51
but this might be different for today's episode.
0:54
Blake Stockman was a tech recruiter at Google,
0:56
then at Meta,
0:56
and we worked together when he was at Uber.
0:58
He then recruited for Flexport,
0:59
for Y Combinator,
1:00
and ran his own recruitment agency.
1:03
After 12 years of being a big tech and startups recruiter,
1:05
Blake left tech recruiting behind and is studying to become a lawyer now.
1:09
Needless to say,
1:10
I jumped at the opportunity to get some of his raw takes on tech recruitment.
1:14
Today,
1:14
we go into how the tech hiring process works at companies like Google Meta and Uber,
1:20
how engineer managers and recruiters work together using the example of
1:23
myself and Blake at Uber.
1:26
When you receive an offer,
1:27
tips on how to negotiate it,
1:29
and a lot more behind the scenes details.
1:32
If you enjoy the show,
1:33
please subscribe to the podcast on any podcast platform and on YouTube.
1:37
SPEAKER_0: I wanted to ask you about a truth about tech recruiters.
1:42
SPEAKER_0: In terms of as a candidate, I'm a software engineer on the market.
1:46
SPEAKER_0: I talk with the recruiter at a large tech company.
1:50
SPEAKER_0: Are you on my side?
1:52
Are you actually looking out to help me or are you someone who I need to win over?
1:57
So basically when you're asking me questions,
1:59
should I tell you what I think you want to hear so I can pass your screen,
2:04
get to the interview,
2:06
or at some point are you an ally?
2:10
Because in the end you do want to fill that seat probably,
2:13
assuming you think I'm a good fit.
2:16
I will say when I had a good relationship and I genuinely believed that
2:21
someone was going to be a good hire for the company,
2:25
I would go out of my way to go to bat for that person,
2:30
to try to advocate for that person,
2:32
or maybe would put myself on a ledge a little bit because I thought this was the
2:36
right decision for the company and I felt strongly about it.
2:39
SPEAKER_1: I think I'm probably a little bit of an outlier there.
2:44
I think especially right now where a lot of recruiters have just gone through
2:48
a lot of layoffs and hiring and maybe feel more fragile in their professional
2:53
standing than maybe we did traditionally.
2:56
I think that the primary thing that I would...
3:00
It's like any professional relationship and it has a lot of asterisks to it.
3:05
You just need to be authentic,
3:08
build a real connection with your recruiter where there's an opportunity to,
3:13
I think be wary around overly disclosing information that's going to shoot
3:21
you in the foot,
3:23
like maybe salary expectations.
3:26
Any negotiating 101 will tell you not to give salary expectations upfront
3:31
because that's where people will anchor.
3:33
If someone's told me that,
3:35
this is an overly simplified example,
3:38
but if someone told me that they were going to set their salary expectation
3:41
was a hundred thousand dollars and I knew my salary range was 110 to $140,000,
3:49
and eventually I got to the offer,
3:52
I'd be like,
3:54
"I know you wanted a hundred thousand dollars,
3:55
so I went and got you $110,000" because at the end of the day,
4:00
I'm an employee of the company and my job is to be an effective steward of the company.
4:07
So recognize where there is some obvious inherent friction in the relationship.
4:15
Be authentic in really what you want to get out of the relationship,
4:20
like don't be a robot because sometimes,
4:25
again,
4:25
I would go the extra mile in that extra 10,
4:15
15% of cases.
4:30
When I would sit down with you or you were on the fence about a hiring decision,
4:34
I would tell you my opinion.
4:37
SPEAKER_0: I actually remember some of these discussions.
4:40
I worked with a lot of recruiters and I'm just going to say that most
4:43
recruiters were not like you.
4:44
SPEAKER_0: I think the entrepreneurial spirit came through.
4:48
SPEAKER_0: So you did it both.
4:50
SPEAKER_0: You did sit down with hiring managers.
4:51
So when you saw I was,
4:53
especially with less experienced hiring managers,
4:54
which I was in the beginning where you actually gave me kind of good advice
4:58
outlook because you had placed a lot of people by that time,
5:00
right?
5:00
Hundreds of people at different companies,
5:02
and you saw how they worked out.
5:03
So sometimes it just felt like honest advice,
5:06
but one thing I remember,
5:07
which I haven't seen many,
5:09
some recruiters have done this.
5:11
I've talked with them,
5:12
but one thing I haven't seen many people do is it on debrief where it was a very
5:17
going back and forth and it trended towards a no.
5:20
You would rarely but inject yourself saying,
5:22
"Hey,
5:23
I know I'm the recruiter,
5:24
but I've talked with this candidate a lot and I'm also a bit of an outside observer.
5:28
SPEAKER_0: Here's things I'm hearing people be concerned about."
5:33
For example,
5:33
the coding interview didn't go as well,
5:35
the second one,
5:36
but the first one went well,
5:37
and I'm just going to ask how important is it for the role?
5:40
You kind of coached the room a little bit and once or twice the decision was
5:46
turned around,
5:46
not because you clearly injected yourself because you felt that something
5:51
was off and we weren't giving this a fair look,
5:54
and it was rare,
5:55
but clearly that only happened because you had that trust with the candidate
6:00
and the broader content.
6:02
Again,
6:02
it always felt it only worked because you put the company first,
6:05
right?
6:05
SPEAKER_0: So it would've not worked.
6:06
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I think that was pretty unique to me though too.
6:08
SPEAKER_1: I think I was pretty unique as a recruiter in how I approached it.
6:11
I think broadly though,
6:12
just to round out the candidate side of it,
6:14
I think just recognize that their professional relationships and really
6:17
what their goals are is to make the hire because what they're goaled on,
6:21
and so there's some friction there of stewarding for the company,
6:24
but also like,
6:25
"Hey,
6:26
if you're good for the job,
6:27
great,
6:28
it'sonelessthingIgottoworryabout."
6:30
SPEAKER_1: So I think that's important for the candidate side.
6:32
SPEAKER_1: On the hiring side, I don't think a lot of recruiters do this.
6:38
I think a lot of recruiters,
6:39
because they don't come from technical backgrounds,
6:44
they're very wary or uncomfortable stepping in and having these sorts of conversations.
6:51
I would push any engineering manager or any founder to maybe solicit that
6:56
feedback more actively.
6:58
SPEAKER_1: Because a recruiter talks to these people a lot.
7:02
They can get a sense if there's any red flags or concerns that they should be
7:07
aware of or if there are some supporting factors and conversations around
7:13
how excited this person is for the job and what it means to them and what
7:17
they'll really bring to the table and go that extra mile.
7:21
So I think from a manager's side,
7:25
don't be afraid to...
7:27
You should probably give the coding interview more weight than a
7:31
recruiter's feedback,
7:32
but it's valuable in borderline decisions.
7:35
And I do think that some of the more effective hires that we made were not the
7:40
straightforward ones,
7:41
were the borderline ones.
7:42
SPEAKER_0: No, no, they were almost all borderline ones.
7:46
SPEAKER_0: Interesting enough, now that I think back.
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So let's talk about what hiring processes at big tech companies work like.
9:44
SPEAKER_0: Again, you were at Google, Meta, Uber, I guess they're somewhat similar.
9:49
I'd love to hear from your point of view,
9:51
the tech recruiter's point of view.
9:53
SPEAKER_0: What did the process look like?
9:54
Because as an engineering manager or well,
9:57
as a software engineer,
9:58
the process is like I get an invite for an interview.
10:00
I go there,
10:01
I give my feedback,
10:02
I go to the debrief,
10:04
I do thumbs up,
10:04
thumbs down.
10:05
SPEAKER_0: We have a discussion.
10:06
As an engineering manager,
10:07
I actually get headcount,
10:11
then I'll probably talk to you at Uber.
10:15
We sometimes figure out a plan and I'm involved,
10:17
but oftentimes my recruiter does lead me,
10:19
especially when I'm a less experienced engineer manager,
10:22
which I was when we first joined.
10:24
What does it look from your perspective when you're hiring software
10:27
engineers or engineering managers?
10:30
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the, every company is different.
10:35
SPEAKER_1: How every company does headcount is different.
10:37
Remember at Facebook,
10:39
we didn't get our headcount goal for 2025,
10:43
I don't think until February.
10:46
I think at Uber,
10:47
I think into March before we really knew what our goal was.
10:52
SPEAKER_0: For the year.
10:52
SPEAKER_1: And then it would change a month later anyways.
10:55
SPEAKER_0: Yeah, Uber was special.
10:58
It felt like whatever headcount we had,
11:01
if we hired fast enough,
11:02
we just got more.
11:04
So really at the end of the day,
11:05
what Uber was,
11:05
just hire as fast as possible.
11:08
SPEAKER_1: That was the initiative from-
11:10
SPEAKER_0: From the top.
11:11
SPEAKER_1: Travis all the way down.
11:13
SPEAKER_1: From the CEO all the way down.
11:16
SPEAKER_1: But I think every company is different.
11:18
Normally you'll get your headcount and you'll work with maybe your VP of engineering,
11:23
your engineering director,
11:25
whoever it is that your primary hiring partner is for your hiring group.
11:28
SPEAKER_1: And they'll say, "Hey, I have these hires."
11:30
SPEAKER_1: And then they'll say, "Hey, they're going to go to these managers."
11:33
SPEAKER_1: And then your recruiting manager will say, "Hey, here's your pocket.
11:36
SPEAKER_1: Here's your group.
11:37
SPEAKER_1: Here's what you're going to support."
11:39
SPEAKER_1: And every recruiting team has its nuances.
11:44
The most effective ones that I've seen,
11:46
you generally have more structured direct partnerships and relationships
11:51
with your hiring managers,
11:54
and so you'll sit down with them and you'll figure out an action plan.
11:58
Once you get headcount,
11:59
every engineering manager is like,
12:01
"Myhireisthemostimportantandhere'swhy."
12:03
SPEAKER_0: Oh, yeah.
12:04
So your job I think is a lot of navigating that and then figuring out how to
12:11
tackle it.
12:12
So when we would hire software engineers,
12:14
especially in hyper-competitive markets like we were,
12:17
we're trying to figure out where is this person realistically going to
12:20
accept our offer and what do we need to do to close him or her to come join the
12:30
broader organization?
12:32
SPEAKER_1: And so we'll get our headcount, figure out what we need to tackle.
12:39
SPEAKER_1: We'll put together an action plan with the hiring managers.
12:42
We'll go out,
12:43
we'll start reaching out to candidates,
12:46
filtering through our networks,
12:48
asking for referrals from the team,
12:50
whatever it is we need to do to start to get more people in the door,
12:53
fill the top of the funnel.
12:56
SPEAKER_1: And a lot of that now is done.
12:58
You can do a lot with tooling and there's a lot of productivity hacks,
13:01
but we used to have to do it very old school hackerish ways.
13:07
So you fill that top of the funnel and then you hope you have an effective
13:12
hiring process.
13:12
SPEAKER_1: And if you don't, you need to figure that out.
13:14
SPEAKER_1: You run it, get good candidates through the door, try to close them.
13:20
SPEAKER_1: And yeah, and there's a lot of nuance.
13:22
SPEAKER_1: Every company's got a different way of going about that process.
13:25
SPEAKER_1: But yeah, it was always messy.
13:29
SPEAKER_1: No company has figured it out quite yet.
13:32
Maybe we can talk over a little bit on how it actually worked at Uber at our time.
13:36
Obviously things have changed and it's definitely not the same,
13:39
but that was pretty cool because both of us were there.
13:42
SPEAKER_0: I was a less experienced engineer manager.
13:43
SPEAKER_0: In fact, I didn't have much experience when we started.
13:46
So I'll start from my perspective and then we can pitch in on what information
13:51
you had.
13:52
I showed up and my manager at the time already set up a weekly meeting with you.
13:59
Every week we would get together,
14:01
and so I would get my head count approved or not approved,
14:04
but I'm like,
14:05
so my leadership team needs to give me head count or at least verbally tell me,
14:09
okay,
14:10
this year or this next six months,
14:12
you can hire three head counts to fill.
14:14
SPEAKER_0: And with my management team, I would decide what the head count will be.
14:18
SPEAKER_0: Is it going to be a senior mobile engineer back end?
14:20
SPEAKER_0: I mean, for me, this was mostly the two things.
14:23
And once I had it,
14:24
put it in a table on our meeting,
14:26
I would tell you,
14:27
"All right,
14:27
Blake,
14:28
I now have clearance.
14:29
We'regoingtostarttohireforthesetwobackendandonemobileengineer."
14:34
SPEAKER_0: And then I would hand it over to you.
14:36
SPEAKER_0: How are we going to do this?
14:38
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
14:40
It was tough because we were in Amsterdam,
14:45
we could hire from pretty much anywhere in the world.
14:48
And so when someone just gives you,
14:50
"Hey,
14:50
you've got to go hire 10 people over the next quarter,
14:55
here are your teams.
14:56
SPEAKER_1: Go figure it out."
14:58
SPEAKER_1: It's pretty ambiguous.
15:00
And so we would figure out as a broader recruiting team,
15:07
"Hey,
15:07
whereareweabletoreallyeffectivelyrecruitfrom?"
15:11
SPEAKER_1: We do a talent map.
15:12
So this is something that I think is really helpful,
15:14
especially start to do larger hiring projects,
15:17
maybe not so much one-to-one,
15:19
but when you have a new role,
15:21
you might sit down and be like,
15:22
"Okay,
15:23
weneedtohireasoftwareengineerwiththisparticularsetofskills."
15:26
And so if it was for our payments team was the largest one,
15:31
so we'll say,
15:31
"Hey,
15:32
we need to find a couple.
15:33
SPEAKER_1: What are the companies that are going to have relevant experience?"
15:36
Or someone could ramp up really quickly,
15:37
have understanding of our domain knowledge,
15:39
and then we would map out those companies.
15:41
And then we would say,
15:42
"Okay,
15:42
but which ones do we think also have really good engineering talent that also
15:47
wouldplantinreallywellwithabroaderengineeringculturehere?"
15:51
SPEAKER_1: And then we would put together a whole outreach plan.
15:53
So I think that was really critical is the pre-planning,
15:58
pre-calibration,
16:00
making sure that we're aligned,
16:02
that the candidates that we would bring to your door,
16:05
are you going to like them or are you going to have earlier opinions about them?
16:10
And so I think the point of this is helpful for engineers or people that want to
16:13
be founders one day or engineering managers is just the upfront work of calibrating,
16:21
really understanding and getting on the same page,
16:26
I mean,
16:27
it will save you weeks if not months down the road.
16:33
It saves you a lot of back and forth and really gets you ahead of the curve.
16:38
SPEAKER_0: And by calibration, what do you mean?
16:42
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
16:43
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
16:43
I mean,
16:47
if you just say,
16:48
"Hey,
16:48
here's a job description,
16:50
go find me some engineers," and then I go out,
16:53
I bring you some candidates,
16:55
you're going to tell me,
16:56
"Hey,
16:56
I don't like these for this reason or this reason,
16:58
orIlikethemforthisreason."
17:00
SPEAKER_0: I now actually remember when we were calibrating.
17:03
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
17:05
And then sometimes I might ask you,
17:08
I might be like,
17:09
"Hey,
17:10
Gergely,
17:10
go find me five engineers that you're really excited about,
17:14
or that if you could get them to interview at Uber,
17:17
you would hire them today.
17:19
SPEAKER_1: And why is that?"
17:20
SPEAKER_1: And so I would have you bring some of those.
17:24
Then I would go back with my team and then we would go find a bunch,
17:27
and then we would sit down and we'd like write,
17:29
we'd comment.
17:30
We'd spend 30 minutes,
17:31
an hour,
17:32
however long we needed to get on the same page because recruiting time is expensive.
17:37
SPEAKER_1: Recruiting is very operationally involved.
17:41
SPEAKER_1: Again, it's becoming more and more automated.
17:44
SPEAKER_1: There's easier ways to calibrate.
17:46
You could use AI systems to accelerate this process,
17:49
but there is some good old school calibration that needs to happen because again,
17:55
recruiting is a partnership function.
17:56
Recruiting can't do anything on its own,
17:58
and the manager is very,
18:00
very limited in what they can do on their own.
18:02
SPEAKER_1: So you need to get those functions on the same page.
18:05
And I think one thing that I felt worked well,
18:08
and it's kind of always hard to tell if I was in a bubble,
18:10
if every company works like this,
18:12
but as I understand at a lot of places at large companies,
18:15
there's recruiters and there's managers,
18:17
and it's kind of transactional as in like,
18:19
"Oh,
18:20
managersgetheadcounteverynowandthen."
18:22
And when they do,
18:22
they go to recruitment,
18:24
they're like,
18:25
"Bringmethesepeople."
18:27
They kind of get something,
18:28
maybe not what they expected,
18:29
but they do it and they go away and they don't talk with them.
18:33
What happened with you and me and engineer managers and recruiter and your
18:36
recruiting team is we actually worked together for a longer time.
18:40
SPEAKER_0: We figured it out.
18:42
SPEAKER_0: We did treat this as a partnership.
18:44
I think my manager,
18:45
Charles,
18:46
he really always actually taught me is like,
18:49
"You need to treat recruitment as your partner.
18:51
SPEAKER_0: You're equal.
18:52
SPEAKER_0: You're not better than them."
18:53
I think especially at Uber at a tech company,
18:55
engineering was a little bit higher in the...
18:59
I don't know,
18:59
in terms of how we were compensated or seen or valued.
19:04
SPEAKER_0: And so he stressed this partnership, which was true.
19:06
And I remember that when we put together,
19:08
we were doing this calibration,
19:09
we're trying to find senior engineers,
19:10
and we realized we can't really find as many as we'd like,
19:14
at least not in the near vicinity.
19:16
I think you came to us and said,
19:18
"All right,
19:18
we actually have people who don't necessarily meet a senior bar,
19:22
but they can grow into it and look at their career trajectory.
19:25
Could we actually compromise on some of these and then we could have more candidates,
19:29
morediversecandidates?"
19:30
SPEAKER_0: And I remember being very pleasantly surprise, like "Oh, really cool.
19:33
SPEAKER_0: So now you're telling me."
19:34
But then I was thinking,
19:35
"You should be telling me because the market better than I do,
19:38
youactuallyscoutthesepeople."
19:40
And as a manager,
19:41
I just remember that I had this thing in my head who I'd like to hire,
19:45
and then reality just comes along.
19:47
Those people will either not respond or when they do come in the door,
19:51
they have crazy salary requirements that even we couldn't match even though
19:55
we were there.
19:57
So I felt that as soon as I was a manager,
20:01
I was like,
20:01
let me treat as a partner.
20:02
SPEAKER_0: In fact, let me learn from you.
20:03
It actually helped my recruitment and being more realistic and more
20:06
flexible and adapting to whatever the market was.
20:10
And then I actually remember that,
20:12
I think it might've been your recruitment team brought some ideas saying like,
20:15
"Oh,
20:15
hey,
20:16
why don't we do a recruitment trip to I think Brazil,
20:20
becausetherewasalotofreallygoodtechtalentthere."
20:22
SPEAKER_0: And it's like, what is a recruitment trip?
20:24
SPEAKER_0: And then you told me like, "Okay, here's how it works."
20:26
So there was a lot of,
20:28
surprisingly,
20:30
I think as soon as we started to work together that I feel we got a lot of value
20:34
out of this.
20:35
Was this a common thing in your experience at larger companies or is this how
20:40
all the better teams work or they work differently?
20:42
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
20:43
Google was,
20:45
again,
20:46
this is decade old information now at this point with Google,
20:50
but Google was very removed.
20:52
They had one broad software engineering pipeline,
20:56
and I would get a candidate that had interviewed with engineers across all
21:01
these random teams,
21:03
very unlikely that any of us people would ever interact with this person ever again.
21:08
So very emotionally removed interviews,
21:12
and then you're like,
21:13
"Okay,
21:13
I'vegotacandidate."
21:15
And then there's a team we would send it to who would say,
21:17
"Hey,
21:17
thisperson'sprobablyafitfortheseteams."
21:20
And then I would send an email to the managers,
21:22
they'd respond if they want to jump on a call.
21:24
SPEAKER_1: So it was very, very removed.
21:27
SPEAKER_1: And I remember again, to go back to why did I go to Uber?
21:32
I think I only saw the hires that I made one time,
21:36
if ever,
21:37
after they started at the company.
21:40
So it was so removed and any of the partnerships were happening at a very,
21:44
very high level,
21:45
but not between managers and recruiters.
21:48
And I always remember,
21:49
I thought that put us in the back foot when things started to change around Google.
21:54
I ran around the market around how many other exciting companies were out
21:59
there like Uber at the time.
22:01
And so that was really interesting to then see Uber,
22:05
we were very directly involved.
22:08
SPEAKER_1: Recruiters were tied directly to particular teams.
22:11
SPEAKER_1: We would have these regular sync ups.
22:13
And I think that made me a lot more effective in navigating really difficult
22:16
closing scenarios where I couldn't say,
22:18
"Hey,
22:19
we'reGoogleacceptouroffer."
22:21
I'd be like,
22:21
"Hey,
22:22
come work for Uber and all the baggage we bring along,
22:25
but here's why it's a really,
22:26
reallygoodplacetobe."
22:28
SPEAKER_1: And then we would lean on our partnership.
22:33
I would talk in depth about why,
22:38
what would make your team,
22:40
for example,
22:41
really,
22:42
really great or why it might not be the right fit.
22:45
SPEAKER_1: So I could then help that person navigate.
22:47
And I think the best recruiters are able to have that honest conversation and
22:55
navigate some of the complexities around what makes something not the right
22:59
fit as well.
23:00
And I think for founders,
23:03
when you're recruiting,
23:05
it's very easy to say all the best parts,
23:09
what makes your company exciting,
23:11
but being able,
23:13
especially for early employees about like,
23:15
"Hey,
23:15
here are the risks,
23:16
here are the challenges.
23:17
Here are the things that I'm worried about and I want your help solving these.
23:20
SPEAKER_1: How might you solve these problems?
23:23
SPEAKER_1: Let's dive in.
23:23
SPEAKER_1: Let's jump in about that."
23:25
That can also be a signal for them if it's the right fit,
23:29
because that's what the real day is going to be like.
23:30
It's solving real problems,
23:33
not just focus on the outcome of closing them and then trying to figure out if
23:36
it's the right fit.
23:37
When you go in with transparency and openness,
23:40
you're more likely to land on it being the right fit for everybody.
23:45
SPEAKER_1: And it also being so that'll stick with you.
23:47
SPEAKER_1: They'll stick with you for a long time.
23:50
And so the partnership that we had,
23:51
I think with the back and forth around Uber and some of the teams,
23:57
I think that that's why some of the hires that we made are still there.
24:02
SPEAKER_1: We go on that Brazil trip.
24:03
Some of those people are still,
24:05
they're the leaders now of the office,
24:07
which is crazy to see.
24:09
SPEAKER_0: Almost all of them.
24:10
This is like seven years later,
24:12
they've all grown into senior staff engineers.
24:15
And that was the Brazil trip,
24:17
which again,
24:18
it came from,
24:18
I want to stress.
24:19
As far as I remember,
24:20
it came from yourself and the recruitment team,
24:23
I don't know exactly who,
24:24
but it was like,
24:24
"Oh,
24:25
let's do this.
24:25
SPEAKER_0: And we're like, "Oh, we don't know about this."
24:28
Yeah,
24:28
I think it came from other members of the team,
24:30
but we were all involved and I think it was very,
24:34
very interesting to see some of my colleagues really drive some of that and I
24:38
think some of the results.
24:40
SPEAKER_1: I was a skeptic of its ability to work, but it worked really well.
24:47
SPEAKER_1: And the folks that we hired are exceptional.
24:52
SPEAKER_1: Clearly have become standouts in that culture.
24:55
SPEAKER_1: And I do think this speaks to exactly what you were talking about before.
24:58
Sometimes you hire people with real potential who can grow into roles,
25:03
and I think you have this freedom to do this a little bit more at larger companies.
25:08
You can't do this when you're hiring two or three engineers total for your
25:12
whole company,
25:13
but when you're hiring for a larger team like that,
25:15
you can make these trade-offs that can pay very large dividends down the road.
25:20
SPEAKER_1: And that trip was a great example of exactly that I think.
25:24
SPEAKER_0: Totally.
25:25
SPEAKER_0: So can we talk about how hiring decisions are really made?
25:30
In the sense of you've been in so many debriefs with hiring manager discussions,
25:35
but once an engineer goes through the interviews,
25:37
talks with the engineering team,
25:39
we know with software engineers the usual,
25:41
most companies coding interviews.
25:43
Well,
25:43
there's the recruiter screen,
25:45
coding interview,
25:46
system design,
25:47
hiring manager interview,
25:48
and when that person,
25:50
they do pretty well on all of those.
25:53
SPEAKER_0: Oftentimes it's not necessarily an easy decision.
25:56
I've been on many of those hiring committee decisions or even hiring manager decisions.
26:02
SPEAKER_0: What have you seen in terms of how do hiring managers decide?
26:07
Is it hiring managers or is it groups and how much input did you have as a
26:11
recruiter to champion people,
26:13
for example?
26:14
Yeah,
26:15
the larger the company,
26:18
the more decentralized the hiring process is,
26:22
right?
26:23
So at Google and Facebook,
26:27
you have committee after committee and review after review that look over
26:31
large packets.
26:32
You're talking earlier about Cloudflare looks over every offer before it
26:36
goes out.
26:37
Larger companies can sometimes have layers and layers of reviews and approvals,
26:41
and you need to basically validate your hiring decision all the way up the chain.
26:49
This can be really painful,
26:50
I think for candidates and also for the manager who's like,
26:53
"Hey,
26:54
I've been trying to find this person for three,
26:56
four months and they're not going to start for another month,
27:00
and then it's going to take them a month to ramp up,
27:02
andthenwehavethisdelay."
27:03
So I always found those types of processes to be very in contention with
27:11
rapidly changing business priorities.
27:13
And so that's why a lot of startups and I think companies that were more
27:18
efficient at really scaling like Uber really brought it as close to the
27:24
manager as possible with one layer of removal of approval,
27:31
basically.
27:31
Just as a gut check,
27:33
making sure that you're not just making desperate decisions,
27:35
but making effective decisions.
27:37
SPEAKER_1: And so we would do debriefs.
27:39
SPEAKER_1: That was our standard process.
27:41
I have generally carried these through,
27:44
and I use them even with my earlier stage startups that I used to work with,
27:48
where you have your hiring process of who's interviewing what,
27:53
and what subject matter we want to dive into,
27:55
and you can talk more about how hiring processes work,
27:58
but basically you get all these people into the same room.
28:02
SPEAKER_1: You put out there, "Hey, I'm a yes, I'm a no, I'm unsure."
28:07
SPEAKER_1: You have a broad discussion.
28:09
And then I also find that it's really,
28:12
really effective to do written feedback so that people can come review it
28:18
asynchronously and then have more informed,
28:22
valuable discussions instead of just resuscitating notes live.
28:27
SPEAKER_1: And so you come in, you make those, everyone discusses.
28:32
But really at the end of the day,
28:33
it is not the engineer on the next team over who's helping you with a skill set interview.
28:44
It's not the senior engineer on your team who has a broader understanding of
28:53
architecture than you do.
28:55
It's you as the manager who has to own that decision,
28:58
both the positives of making that particular hire and maybe any trade-offs
29:03
you have to make.
29:03
It's very rare that everyone's going to perfectly fit what you're looking for.
29:07
SPEAKER_1: We're talking about human beings after all, not robots.
29:12
And so I found that the biggest thing you can do from a candidate side is just be
29:21
honest with the hiring manager about where your strengths are and where
29:25
you're trying to grow.
29:26
SPEAKER_1: Don't try to BS your way around it.
29:30
Because that's the person who's really going to have to own the decision and
29:35
go to bat for you and who's going to either give it the inevitable yes or no.
29:42
If you are on the manager side of this,
29:44
remember,
29:45
when you're interviewing people,
29:46
very rarely is everyone going to be a thumbs up.
29:49
SPEAKER_1: "Yes, across the board, this is the perfect hire.
29:53
SPEAKER_1: Let's make it."
29:53
I think that was maybe 20% of the hires that we would make is where everyone is
29:59
unilaterally yes.
30:01
So the thing that I would talk to a lot of the managers about is like,
30:04
"Okay,
30:05
here'sthiscandidate."
30:06
SPEAKER_1: You have all these signals.
30:08
SPEAKER_1: Again, they're imperfect, they're quick snapshot conversations.
30:11
And as anyone who's managed people before knows it can take months or even
30:15
maybe a year before you really understand people's strengths and
30:18
weaknesses as a professional.
30:20
SPEAKER_1: So how can you possibly get that in a short interview?
30:24
SPEAKER_1: But here's these signal points.
30:27
SPEAKER_1: Let's make a trade-off discussion here.
30:29
Knowing what you know about the team,
30:31
knowing what you know about this person,
30:33
how it all fits in,
30:35
what do you want to do?
30:36
And so how hiring decisions get made,
30:40
I think it really lands on how desperate is the team to hire,
30:45
how cleanly do you fit in with the overall need?
30:50
More and more,
30:51
it's becoming about particular specialized skill sets or having broader
30:56
architectural understanding of what it is that you're actually building,
30:59
not just being the fastest coder or quickest hacker.
31:04
So I think it's more about nuanced,
31:08
broader understanding and being able to navigate those trade-offs.
31:12
So happy to dive into any particular area that you find interesting there,
31:17
but a lot of the times people want to think that it's like,
31:21
"IhavetheskillsforthejobandIeitherdidordidnotgetthejob."
31:26
SPEAKER_1: Why is that?
31:27
I think there's a lot more nuance always going on behind the scenes that
31:31
doesn't really get talked about openly.
31:33
Did you notice that large tech company,
31:37
the startups behave very differently in terms of hiring?
31:40
SPEAKER_0: Or is there just more subjectivity?
31:42
SPEAKER_0: Is it more based on the fewer people making decisions?
31:46
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, yeah.
31:47
I think the pros and cons of a hire and how it fits in and how much impact a bad
31:55
hire can make or how much impact a good hire can make is so much larger the
32:00
smaller the company it is.
32:01
SPEAKER_0: Oh, interesting.
32:03
And so I do think that there is an inherent introducing of bias for sure into
32:08
hiring process.
32:10
And I think that a lot of companies struggle with this part of it for sure,
32:18
of making really effective informed decisions that are not based in bias,
32:23
but actual rooted,
32:25
"HowgooddoIthinkthisperson'sreallygoingtobeinthisjob?"
32:29
But yeah,
32:29
I do think there is a lot more risk aversion,
32:36
I think,
32:36
at earlier stage companies initially,
32:40
and then they get really desperate when sometimes it takes them a while and I
32:46
think they overcorrect and that's where they make hiring mistakes.
32:52
SPEAKER_0: This is the second time you're mentioning a company being desperate.
32:56
You previously said don't make desperate hiring decisions,
32:59
but clearly you've seen that the companies do.
33:01
SPEAKER_0: Can you talk about how this happens?
33:04
SPEAKER_0: It sounds like you've seen a bit of a pattern here.
33:07
SPEAKER_1: It happens.
33:10
I think when you're facing a big push or a big deadline,
33:18
sometimes as a company you realize,
33:20
"Oh,
33:21
we have this huge opportunity here,
33:22
but we need to hire someone to actually build out this project or take on this
33:27
product area" or whatever.
33:30
SPEAKER_1: Then you put together a recruiting process.
33:33
Then you either,
33:34
whether it be you're doing it yourself or you bring on a recruiter.
33:38
By the time that you actually spin it up and probably get going,
33:40
it might be a week or a couple of weeks or a month.
33:43
SPEAKER_1: It depends on how effective or how high priority it is.
33:46
SPEAKER_0: You need to warm up the pipeline, you need to do reach outs, etc.
33:49
SPEAKER_1: You got to calibrate.
33:50
SPEAKER_1: You got to start bringing people into the pipeline.
33:52
SPEAKER_1: You run your processes.
33:54
So it can take a very long time until you start to actually get people in the door,
33:58
and then you have to actually get them to start.
34:02
Now,
34:04
there are more candidates in the market now than there were a couple of years ago.
34:08
SPEAKER_1: I think that's the nature of tech hiring right now.
34:10
SPEAKER_1: But it does take a while.
34:13
I think that what will happen is that especially earlier managers or earlier
34:18
founders that haven't done a lot of hiring before,
34:22
going with these expectations of what the process will look like,
34:24
and then they end up finding themselves two months later or three months later.
34:29
Maybe they made an offer,
34:30
the person took a different job or they didn't quite navigate the trade-off
34:35
decisions effectively or maybe just didn't find the right person,
34:37
which happens.
34:38
So then you're kind of facing this,
34:41
"Well,
34:41
we've got this okay person that we think would work at least for this,
34:46
maybe this context,
34:48
and if we don't hire them,
34:51
maybe we don't ship this product," which could feel like life or death.
34:55
SPEAKER_1: Everything feels like life or death early in your company.
34:59
So that's where desperate decisions are made,
35:04
and I think the downsides of a bad hire for a company at an early stage,
35:12
they're very,
35:13
very high.
35:14
SPEAKER_1: They're very, very high.
35:15
SPEAKER_1: So that's where desperation comes in.
35:20
SPEAKER_0: Let me add one more desperation, which you might remember.
35:23
SPEAKER_0: It's a weird type of desperation.
35:24
SPEAKER_0: Maybe this was specific to Uber.
35:26
If we did not fill our headcount allocated with hires by the end of the year,
35:32
we would lose it.
35:33
SPEAKER_1: Yes.
35:34
So basically this created this really weird thing,
35:37
and I was in a situation in Amsterdam.
35:39
SPEAKER_0: We had a lot of headcount and we were lagging behind.
35:42
SPEAKER_0: We were not on track to fill it.
35:44
So at the end of the year as a manager,
35:47
clearly we initially worked with the recruiting team saying,
35:49
"Hey,
35:50
can you get more candidates?
35:51
SPEAKER_0: Let's get in more interviews.
35:52
Let's have engineers work less on projects,
35:56
pushbackonprojectssowecanactuallyhire."
35:58
But as a manager,
35:59
we did face a decision of like,
36:00
"Okay,
36:01
there's a person who's kind of a maybe yes.
36:04
Do we hire this person and then we'll help fill the headcount or will we just
36:09
losetheheadcount?"
36:09
Which feels,
36:11
again,
36:11
I don't think this happens right now,
36:12
but back then this was a thing.
36:15
SPEAKER_0: It was such a weird situation to be in.
36:19
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
36:19
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
36:20
I think because then you have to remake your case of why you want to hire that
36:24
person in the first place or why it's important.
36:27
SPEAKER_1: And I do think headcount discussions are very, very, very political.
36:31
It's everyone fighting over limited resources,
36:33
particularly right now where it's not a boom market.
36:36
In particular sectors like AI,
36:38
it is,
36:38
but broadly across the board,
36:40
it's not as much of a boom market as it used to be.
36:44
I think very rarely making desperate decisions leads to good outcomes,
36:52
and that's why you generally at larger companies have layers of checking to
36:59
make sure that this is actually a really good business decision broadly,
37:03
and I think the primary purpose of exactly what that's supposed to serve.
37:12
I would just advise anyone,
37:13
if you think the reason the primary and secondary and maybe even tertiary
37:19
reason you're making a hire is,
37:20
"Oh God,
37:20
we need someone in the seat," you're going to probably regret it.
37:24
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, you probably regret it.
37:25
SPEAKER_0: Yeah.
37:26
SPEAKER_0: Over time it usually goes I guess.
37:27
But this was more of a case when I personally was a less experienced manager
37:31
and I didn't see,
37:32
I think once you do those mistakes,
37:34
you learn from them.
37:35
You do,
37:36
but maybe you can learn ahead of time and not make them in the first place.
37:39
So now that we've gone through the hiring committee decision is settled on a
37:44
yes one way or the other,
37:46
it's a very exciting time as a candidate.
37:48
You get the email or you get the call saying,
37:51
"Hey,
37:51
we want to extend an offer for you,
37:53
and then we're setting up this call," which is in your lingo,
37:57
it's the closing.
37:59
What happens on this call,
38:00
which is a recruiter candidates,
38:02
think about it as a final call.
38:04
SPEAKER_0: Recruiters think of a hiring manager as a closing call.
38:07
SPEAKER_0: The goal of the company is to have the person accept.
38:11
What typically goes through,
38:12
how do you prepare and what does it feel look like?
38:16
SPEAKER_0: Because you've done this so many times.
38:18
Yeah,
38:19
I think the preparation for that,
38:24
a recruiter is going to go back to their finance team if they have one or the
38:28
founder if they don't,
38:30
and they're going to tell them,
38:31
"Hey,
38:31
this is what you can pay.
38:33
SPEAKER_1: Here's the salary, whatever.
38:35
SPEAKER_1: Here's the equity that we're going to offer."
38:37
SPEAKER_1: Hopefully the recruiter has a good understanding of the equity.
38:41
SPEAKER_1: Hopefully they can speak to it.
38:44
I'm assuming that equity as a part of the package,
38:46
I think is pretty standard in most technical offers these days.
38:49
SPEAKER_0: Tech and startups, yeah.
38:51
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
38:51
SPEAKER_1: At least in the startup sphere.
38:54
And I think that I am a nerd,
38:58
so I like to really understand the equity and speak to it and how it plays into
39:02
the market and maybe how we got our valuation.
39:05
At Flexport,
39:06
I talked to our FP&A team and I was like,
39:09
"Hey,
39:10
Iwanttogetinformationof-
39:11
SPEAKER_0: FP&A is finance planning and?
39:12
SPEAKER_1: And analysis.
39:15
SPEAKER_0: Analysis.
39:17
SPEAKER_1: Basically, I think they're like financial wizards, man.
39:21
They're just forward projection thinking about,
39:25
and they really understood the company valuation,
39:27
right?
39:27
SPEAKER_1: They're the ones, the investor-
39:29
SPEAKER_0: You walked up to them to understand all this?
39:32
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
39:32
And we had our recruiting team trained on how to speak to and sell the valuation.
39:40
We were not going to beat Google and Facebook and Uber and even other
39:44
competing startups that offered more money.
39:46
SPEAKER_1: Flexport did not give the largest packages.
39:49
So we had to tell a story about the startup,
39:53
where it was going,
39:54
why it was going to be big.
39:56
SPEAKER_1: And so we taught our team, and I think this was effective.
40:02
SPEAKER_1: We got it.
40:02
SPEAKER_1: Again, our baseline was 20% offer acceptance when I started there.
40:08
SPEAKER_1: And so we trained the team how to sell equity.
40:11
SPEAKER_1: And so not all recruiters are going to be able to do that.
40:16
Not all recruiters are going to have a good understanding of the financial
40:20
projections and futures and valuation nuances,
40:23
but what an engineer should know is that you're going to get the base level information.
40:29
Hopefully,
40:29
your recruiter can speak to things like the strike price,
40:34
where's the valuation coming from?
40:36
SPEAKER_1: When is the company going to raise again?
40:39
Because you're basically deferring cash compensation to be an owner in the company.
40:44
SPEAKER_1: So ask questions you would want to know as an investor.
40:49
If you're willing to go do some day trades on the side over a couple of hundred
40:53
or a couple of thousand dollars,
40:55
shouldn't you take that kind of dedication and nuance and understanding and
41:02
understanding of the equity,
41:03
which you're basically deferring cash to invest in this company?
41:07
SPEAKER_1: That's a lot of what you do when you go work for a startup.
41:09
So if they don't have the information,
41:13
be polite,
41:14
but just ask them if you could speak to someone who can give you that information.
41:18
SPEAKER_1: Sometimes that's the engineering manager.
41:20
They'll give you their authentic take a lot of the times how they think about
41:24
it for themselves because it's going to be their job if you join,
41:28
they're going to have to help you navigate these compensation conversations.
41:32
So get this information and then sometimes they'll connect you to the CEO or
41:37
someone from the finance team to talk through it.
41:39
SPEAKER_1: But this is important information.
41:40
I think a lot of people gloss over it or don't understand it because it's messy,
41:48
it's scary,
41:49
it's unique,
41:51
and yeah,
41:53
pretty gray.
41:55
But yeah,
41:55
I do think that when I was a recruiter,
41:58
we would prep,
41:59
get the information,
42:00
understand what the offer is,
42:02
lay it out there,
42:03
and then we would always set up another call.
42:05
SPEAKER_1: "Okay, when can you talk to the hiring manager?
42:08
SPEAKER_1: Or what does next steps look like?
42:11
SPEAKER_1: Can you accept this offer?
42:12
SPEAKER_1: What is your timeline?"
42:14
And so I think being able to ask his questions to really understand the offer,
42:18
but then also be ready for them to ask you for when you're making a decision,
42:23
whether it be on the spot,
42:26
a couple of days,
42:27
two weeks from now.
42:29
SPEAKER_1: And that's very situation-specific.
42:32
Now,
42:33
one thing that I think is on everyone's mind who's in the situation is how much
42:38
can I negotiate?
42:39
SPEAKER_0: Because clearly you're getting an offer.
42:41
There's going to be baseline,
42:42
and normally this will be a tricky question.
42:45
If you are working for a company right now,
42:48
I couldn't be certain if you're talking to the company or not,
42:51
but now that you're not in the profession for now at least.
42:56
Looking from a candidate's perspective as a recruiter,
42:58
clearly you wanted to close the candidate.
43:01
SPEAKER_0: What leverage do candidates usually have?
43:04
And we can talk a little bit maybe about seniority,
43:07
how that weighs into these things.
43:09
So if you had to advise someone who is like,
43:12
"I got an offer,
43:13
it looks good,
43:14
but I'd like to make the most of it," how does a good professional negotiation
43:19
look like?
43:20
Ones that you've seen succeed,
43:21
and what are maybe some pitfalls that actually people don't succeed?
43:26
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
43:27
So I'll say first off,
43:29
some of the laws around transparency and compensation,
43:32
at least in the United States,
43:34
are changing very quickly.
43:36
We have new laws coming in place in Illinois just this next year about pay transparency.
43:46
We're seeing this already that it's been in place in California for a few years.
43:50
SPEAKER_1: It's been in place for New York for a few years.
43:52
And so you should be able to get some baseline understanding of what's the
43:56
actual range that I'm working with.
43:57
SPEAKER_1: And I think that's a good starting point.
43:59
SPEAKER_1: It's just understanding.
44:00
SPEAKER_1: And if they don't have it, you should be able to ask for it.
44:04
SPEAKER_1: Again, this is very region-specific.
44:07
SPEAKER_1: If you're in the United States, it's very state-specific.
44:11
Broadly speaking,
44:13
wherever you are,
44:14
just try to understand what it is that the recruiter is working with.
44:18
They're going to ask you to state what your compensation expectations are.
44:23
I think that every candidate is best suited by responding respectfully,
44:29
"I would like to see an offer that the company thinks constitutes the value
44:37
that I have to bring to the table" and sticking with that.
44:43
And if any company is not willing to give you an offer because you didn't state
44:48
your compensation expectations upfront,
44:50
which I've never ever seen by the way,
44:54
but they're probably not the right company for you to work at anyways.
44:58
SPEAKER_1: So ask them to put you a fair and honest offer on the table.
45:05
SPEAKER_1: Also, almost every single offer has some room for negotiation.
45:10
SPEAKER_1: There are some exceptions.
45:12
Sometimes interns don't have an ability to negotiate,
45:16
things like that,
45:17
but most offers have room for negotiation.
45:20
SPEAKER_1: So just be prepared for that.
45:22
If you're interviewing at a bigger company or if you're interviewing at
45:25
multiple companies and have the privilege of getting multiple offers,
45:29
the best thing you can do is get all that information in the same place,
45:36
go to the company you're most excited about,
45:40
and get them to compete.
45:42
SPEAKER_1: Get them to step things up.
45:45
Because what I would do when I was a recruiter,
45:48
and this is true,
45:49
when I was at Uber and pretty much every other place,
45:51
I would take in all this information and I'd be like,
45:54
"Hey,
45:55
give me all the information that you can or that you're willing to disclose by
45:58
your other offers.
45:59
SPEAKER_1: If this is where you want to be, that's the big commitment I would get.
46:03
SPEAKER_1: Tell me, you want to be here.
46:05
SPEAKER_1: I'll take all this information.
46:07
I'll go to our finance team and I'll make them get you the best and final offer
46:12
thatyoucanthenmakeyourdecision."
46:15
SPEAKER_1: So I think for negotiation tips, don't go first.
46:20
More offers is better as far as getting better compensation and take your
46:28
time so you really understand exactly what it is that the company's offering.
46:32
And I guess it's good context to understand that the recruiter is not the
46:36
decision maker,
46:37
but they can do,
46:38
when you're respectful,
46:40
they will try to help you.
46:41
SPEAKER_0: You've already gotten the offer.
46:43
SPEAKER_1: Yes.
46:44
As an engineer manager,
46:45
we don't want to lose the candidate if we can close this candidate at that point.
46:50
SPEAKER_1: I had no incentives, I had no goals.
46:53
I never had any sort of structure tied to my performance that was associated
47:02
with paying people less money.
47:04
In fact,
47:05
when I ran a recruiting firm,
47:06
I was paid a percentage of the salary.
47:10
Now,
47:11
I took my professional obligation pretty seriously to not abuse that position.
47:16
SPEAKER_1: But a recruiter does not have professional incentive to pay you less.
47:20
SPEAKER_1: Their professional incentive is to get you in the door.
47:24
SPEAKER_1: If they're making you an offer, their job is to get you in the door.
47:27
So help if you want go work there or if you're really seriously considering it,
47:32
work with them professionally to make that happen,
47:35
but make them go first.When it comes to conversation negotiation.
47:39
You've worked at a lot of startups and you previously mentioned finding
47:43
great startups.
47:45
How can engineers and engineering managers or even execs find great
47:52
founders or startups to work at?
47:54
SPEAKER_0: Do you have some advice on how you can scout those things out?
47:58
SPEAKER_1: How to find good founders, how to find good companies?
48:01
SPEAKER_0: Yeah.
48:02
Yeah,
48:03
so first off,
48:05
I wish there was one place where every startup could go and post all of their
48:09
jobs and you can make an effective decision.
48:12
SPEAKER_1: It's very disparate.
48:13
SPEAKER_1: Probably not LinkedIn, probably not LinkedIn.
48:18
SPEAKER_0: Interesting.
48:19
SPEAKER_0: Tell me more.
48:21
Well,
48:22
you have to pay a lot of money to post an effective job on LinkedIn.
48:26
They charge companies thousands and thousands of dollars just to even put up
48:29
a job in the first place.
48:31
And so if a company is spending thousands and thousands of dollars to post a job,
48:37
I don't know,
48:39
they're probably larger.
48:42
SPEAKER_1: There are good jobs on LinkedIn.
48:43
SPEAKER_1: I found a job through LinkedIn, it's how I found Flexport.
48:45
But the market is changing,
48:49
and especially the earlier and earlier of a startup that you're really
48:51
interested in.
48:52
If you really want small,
48:54
gritty startup,
48:55
they're not going to be posted on LinkedIn.
48:57
Large companies probably are,
48:59
later stage companies probably are,
49:01
but not the really early stage ones.
49:03
And those are probably more easy for people to find anyways,
49:05
the larger startups.
49:08
Earlier stage startups,
49:11
Y Combinator has a great website,
49:14
WorkAtAStartup.com,
49:15
they've built it to where their founders have permanent access.
49:23
SPEAKER_1: They can run a lot of their recruiting searches entirely through there.
49:27
SPEAKER_1: And so you can go on there.
49:29
I would contact people on there all the time to try to get people to come work at
49:32
different YC startups that I was helping or that we thought would be unique
49:37
fits for those individuals.
49:39
And so I think every candidate who's interested in working at a startup
49:45
should start at WorkAtAStartup.com.
49:47
SPEAKER_1: Now, again, these are only YC companies.
49:50
This is not going to be everything,
49:51
but there are a lot of great YC companies all over the world doing all sorts of things.
49:56
SPEAKER_1: So there's number one.
49:59
Next,
49:59
you can look at a lot of the best venture capital firms,
50:04
a lot of them have job pages or have lists of recent investments that they're making.
50:10
And so you can go to their career site and find great repositories of great startups,
50:18
the best venture capital firms are working at.
50:21
I don't think that working with a really big brand name VC is everything,
50:25
but it's certainly a signal,
50:27
right?
50:28
SPEAKER_1: It's certainly a piece of information that you can rely on.
50:31
SPEAKER_1: There's probably something there.
50:33
If Andreessen Horowitz is writing a $10 million check to someone,
50:40
there's probably something there because they spent time.
50:43
SPEAKER_1: They're not just given out $10 million these days.
50:46
SPEAKER_1: So there's probably some reason.
50:49
I think that a lot of these conversations that you're going to have,
50:56
again,
50:58
you're about to spend a lot of your time working on a very,
51:02
very hard thing with people.
51:05
So I think every person who's taken a startup seriously,
51:10
make sure you really get to know these people.
51:13
You are exposed to so much more of the hardship and the ups and downs and whole
51:20
journey of it the earlier of a startup you go to.
51:24
And it's much easier to take that journey on when you actually like the people
51:29
around you.
51:30
And so when you are evaluating startups,
51:35
you have to think about it on an interpersonal level as well as a professional
51:38
level because you are all working to have each other succeed,
51:44
and you need to have each other's back.
51:46
SPEAKER_1: It's a little bit like going to war.
51:47
SPEAKER_1: You really, really need to.
51:52
SPEAKER_1: And so I think that's important when you're evaluating.
51:56
But as far as where to even find these people,
51:58
I think those are really good places to start.
52:01
SPEAKER_1: A lot of this is through networking.
52:03
SPEAKER_1: A lot of this is through referrals.
52:06
SPEAKER_1: So just trying to connect with a lot of these people.
52:09
Different venture capital firms have talent teams that work in-house that
52:13
are constantly trying to find people to go work.
52:15
So maybe you can try to connect with them directly,
52:20
but you kind of have to hustle and you kind of have to go out and do your own
52:23
research because these early hires,
52:26
everyone approaches it differently and there's no single place that you can go.
52:32
And as someone who's used LinkedIn a lot as a recruiter,
52:36
what advice would you give people to update their LinkedIn?
52:41
SPEAKER_0: The first time you're like, "I'm kind of going to be open on the market.
52:44
I'm not going to put an open to work and I have a job,
52:46
butI'dlikerecruiterstofindme."
52:50
How did you find both software engineers but also engineering leaders that
52:54
you kind of felt worthy enough to message?
52:58
Basically,
52:59
what advice would you give people to make yourself a bit more attractive or
53:03
maybe subtly indicate to recruiters like,
53:05
"Hey,
53:06
if you message me,
53:06
I'llprobablyrespond."
53:09
Yeah,
53:09
I don't know if I never really thought too much about if someone would respond.
53:14
SPEAKER_1: If I'm there, I should probably just send the message and see.
53:18
And I think most recruiters are probably just going to send the message and see.
53:22
Now,
53:23
if you're on there,
53:24
don't contact me unless I'm probably not going to message you.
53:29
SPEAKER_1: I think you're being kind of a jerk, so I'm probably not going to.
53:33
We see some of those software engineers,
53:34
I see them less these days,
53:36
but it used to be big a few years ago when the market was hot.
53:39
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, just don't be a jerk.
53:40
SPEAKER_1: It's fine.
53:40
If you don't want,
53:41
you're not interested,
53:42
respond,
53:43
"Hey,
53:43
thanks,
53:44
not interested," or just don't respond.
53:46
SPEAKER_1: Very simple.
53:48
But I think for your LinkedIn profile,
53:49
just put the basic information,
53:51
put what you built,
53:52
put what you're excited about,
53:54
put the basic technologies that you've worked with.
53:57
SPEAKER_1: Some companies care about that.
53:58
SPEAKER_1: Some don't.
53:59
SPEAKER_1: Put the domain that you've worked in.
54:01
Sometimes I would work with FinTech companies and they really wanted people
54:04
with particular FinTech experience.
54:06
Sometimes I worked with people that wanted operational experience like Uber,
54:13
you're building software that's moving the real world around,
54:16
so how are you doing that?
54:19
So put some of that contextual information outside of,
54:22
"I build software,
54:23
but what type of business problems have I really had to understand to go build
54:28
effectivestuffaround?"
54:31
I think don't write an essay,
54:35
but put the basics and be a human being,
54:38
and that will help recruiters find you when you want to be found.
54:47
SPEAKER_0: Solid advice.
54:48
SPEAKER_0: Thank you.
54:50
SPEAKER_0: And what is an inspiring story about recruiting someone that you have?
54:57
SPEAKER_1: An inspiring story?
55:00
SPEAKER_1: I mean that Brazil trip was pretty special I think for a lot of reasons.
55:06
I'll say recruiters are pretty thankless job and it's very emotionally draining.
55:12
You spend a lot of time going to bat for people,
55:14
whether it be your managers or your candidates,
55:17
and no one really stops and says thank you too often.
55:21
But that trip to Brazil,
55:25
I didn't go,
55:25
but when our colleagues came back,
55:27
there was only two of us that were really kind of helping the candidates
55:31
navigate the actual process and offer negotiations.
55:35
SPEAKER_1: It was pretty complicated to make that all happen.
55:38
And I remember one of the individuals when we made the offer and he accepted,
55:45
he came up to me after he started and he told me,
55:48
"Hey,
55:49
thank you so much.
55:50
SPEAKER_1: You changed my life.
55:51
SPEAKER_1: You changed my family's life.
55:53
SPEAKER_1: This is a big step for me, moved me forward."
55:58
And I don't know what was going on in his life where he felt like he needed to
56:01
make that change so much or move away from his home country and move across the
56:05
world to Amsterdam.
56:06
SPEAKER_1: Huge change.
56:09
SPEAKER_1: I've done it.
56:11
It's really,
56:12
really hard and a lot of people do it to move to the US or now to Amsterdam.
56:17
SPEAKER_1: So I remember when he came up, he said, "Thank you."
56:20
SPEAKER_1: He told me this story.
56:21
SPEAKER_1: It sticks with me.
56:24
SPEAKER_1: Maybe people just don't say thank you.
56:26
SPEAKER_1: But I really think what it was is that I was respectful.
56:32
SPEAKER_1: I cared.
56:33
SPEAKER_1: I put in the extra effort.
56:34
SPEAKER_1: I tried to tell him why this would or would not be a good move for him.
56:39
I didn't try to sugarcoat it,
56:41
and it ended up being the right decision for him.
56:43
SPEAKER_1: And so I think that's great.
56:44
You're helping people navigate one of the most consequential things in
56:49
their lives,
56:50
their jobs,
56:52
and I think giving it the respect and time it deserves has a lot of value.
56:59
SPEAKER_1: So that one sticks with me.
57:01
I guess good takeaway is if you're hired somewhere,
57:03
go stop by and say thank you to the recruiter because when you say it,
57:07
I actually realize you say it's a thankless job,
57:09
and as an engineering manager,
57:10
why I was working with you.
57:12
SPEAKER_0: I'll be honest, I didn't say thank you too much to you.
57:16
SPEAKER_0: Maybe I did, but it kind of just hit me now.
57:20
It does feel like a thing the hiring managers take you for granted,
57:24
which I'm just going to say that I did.
57:26
SPEAKER_1: It's okay.
57:27
SPEAKER_0: If you were still an recruiter, and I would apologize.
57:29
SPEAKER_0: Right?
57:30
SPEAKER_0: Sorry.
57:32
It's not that I didn't appreciate you,
57:33
but I never thought it was just,
57:34
it's part of the job.
57:35
SPEAKER_0: You helped me hire out.
57:37
SPEAKER_0: Good job, high five.
57:38
And I think as a candidate,
57:42
it's easy to complain,
57:43
and I've heard so many engineers complain about recruiters,
57:46
but I've never really heard people be thankful,
57:49
and they don't see the stuff that you do for them.
57:53
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
57:53
SPEAKER_1: And whatever it is, just remember again, this is a people business.
57:57
SPEAKER_1: We're working with people on all sides.
58:00
SPEAKER_1: It's very messy.
58:01
SPEAKER_1: It's very difficult.
58:04
SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
58:04
I don't think a thank you would hurt,
58:05
but I do think that when you take that extra step,
58:09
that's the type of thing that make people remember you that will go to bat for you.
58:14
There's one piece of advice I always like to give people is that careers are long.
58:20
SPEAKER_1: People, they will remember how you made them feel.
58:26
SPEAKER_1: They won't always necessarily remember all the things that you did.
58:29
And so if you give people good impressions where they have a good general vibe
58:33
and emotional connection to you as a person,
58:36
they will be willing to go to bat for you in the future.
58:38
SPEAKER_1: They will become the network that you'll rely on to go get your next job.
58:41
I'm getting responses now and help from people who are willing to go to bat and
58:45
help me find really interesting internships as I'm jumping into this new career.
58:51
SPEAKER_1: They have no reason to respond.
58:53
I'm going to be a legal intern in a different department,
58:56
potentially in different companies than them entirely.
58:58
They only were doing it because I left positive impressions on them,
59:01
or at least I'd like to think that I did.
59:03
And so whatever it is,
59:05
whether it be a thank you or just being cordial and professional and kind in
59:13
your professional interactions,
59:14
it goes a really long way in ways that you can never predict.
59:20
SPEAKER_0: Awesome.
59:20
And with this,
59:22
let's wrap up with some rapid questions if you're okay with that.
59:25
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, sure.
59:25
SPEAKER_0: I'll ask a question and then you'll tell me whatever comes to mind.
59:29
What was the most successful cold email reach out that worked for software engineers?
59:37
There was this one guy at Uber and he would email out,
59:42
"Hey,
59:43
this is Chris from Uber.
59:45
SPEAKER_1: I'm interested in chatting.
59:47
SPEAKER_1: Let me know when you're free."
59:49
And he got more responses than anyone else trying to be crafty or creative or
59:54
unique or sell it.
59:56
SPEAKER_1: He was, "Hey, this is Chris from Uber, let's chat."
59:58
And a lot of people like,
1:00:02
"Hey,
1:00:02
great Chris,
1:00:03
let's chat dude,
1:00:04
what'sgoingon?"
1:00:05
SPEAKER_1: So yeah, I remember that.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_1: Chris Adams, what a guy.
1:00:10
I asked this from a few recruiters and I sometimes got the same complaint that
1:00:14
some recruiters put so much time and effort.
1:00:16
They researched,
1:00:17
they did super personalized,
1:00:18
and then they did have that person which...
1:00:21
And by the way,
1:00:22
when those recruiters tried this,
1:00:23
it didn't work for them.
1:00:24
Gergely,
1:00:25
did you ever read a three paragraph long recruiting message telling you all
1:00:29
the nuances?
1:00:30
SPEAKER_0: No.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_1: There you go.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_0: No, even I didn't.
1:00:34
What was the hardest role to recruit for throughout your recruiting career
1:00:37
technology role?
1:00:40
We were hiring a chief data officer for Flexport,
1:00:44
and no one had the same idea of exactly what a chief data officer was supposed
1:00:50
to be.
1:00:51
And even our data analytics team was like,
1:00:54
"Why do we need a chief data officer?
1:00:58
SPEAKER_1: What does that mean?"
1:00:59
And let me tell you,
1:01:01
when no one can tell you why you're hiring someone,
1:01:04
no one will be able to make the hiring decision.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_1: So still doesn't keep me up anymore.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_1: But yeah, chief data officer at Flexport, that was a lot.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_0: What is a book that you would recommend and why?
1:01:19
SPEAKER_1: A book that I would recommend and why?
1:01:23
SPEAKER_1: I'm a big science fiction fan.
1:01:26
I think we all spend so much time reading professional books,
1:01:30
diving into,
1:01:31
I mean,
1:01:31
this is a professional podcast you're making,
1:01:33
right?
1:01:34
SPEAKER_1: Sometimes you got to get out of it.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_1: Three Body Problem is am amazing science fiction novel.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_1: Hugo Award winner, was on President Obama's reading list.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_1: Three Body Problem.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_1: Go read it.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_0: I read it.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_0: I could not agree more.
1:01:50
I have some friends who tell me they find it very slow to start,
1:01:53
but I don't know,
1:01:54
I think it's part of the book.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_0: It's just so-
1:01:56
If you're an engineer,
1:01:57
you have an inquisitive mind,
1:01:59
you like to understand how things work.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_1: The book goes in a deep depth trying to explain science fiction.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_1: And that just to me is a nerd.
1:02:07
It's impossible to put down if you started it and you went,
1:02:11
you gave it a chance.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_0: Agreeing with you.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_1: Yep.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_1: So that's the book.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_0: This is awesome, Blake.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_0: This was very nice to reconnect.
1:02:19
Talk a little bit about the good times and just going deep into recruiting.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_0: Thank you so much for sharing all these details.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_1: Yeah, my pleasure.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_1: Happy to help.
1:02:28
It was really nice to reconnect with Blake and thanks to him for sharing these
1:02:31
behind the scenes details so candidly.
1:02:33
Good luck to Blake in finishing law school,
1:02:35
though I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see him around in the tech industry
1:02:38
even after he graduates.
1:02:40
If you've enjoyed this podcast,
1:02:42
please do subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and on YouTube.
1:02:45
And if you're interested in what the tech recruiting job market looks like,
1:02:48
check out the deep dives from The Pragmatic Engineer linked in the show notes below.