Latest / Random Heathen Ramblings / Random Heathen Ramblings: S4, EP31 - Why Is Loki Veneration So Controversial? (feat. Tyler Bosquez)

Transcript

Random Heathen Ramblings: S4, EP31 - Why Is Loki Veneration So Controversial? (feat. Tyler Bosquez) · Random Heathen Ramblings

• 0:02
  Hello everyone and welcome to the Random Heathen Ramblings
• 0:05
  podcast, where we discuss all sorts of things Germanic
• 0:10
  Heathenry related. My name is Jesse and I am your
• 0:15
  host. Let's get into it.
• 0:38
  Well, well, well, Halen. Hello there, everyone.
• 0:41
  Welcome back to this week's episode of the Random Heat and
• 0:43
  Ramblings podcast. And thank you.
• 0:45
  Yeah, you right there. I see, I see you bought your
• 0:47
  front row tickets to the show this week.
• 0:50
  And it's a good one for you to have bought Front Row tickets
• 0:54
  too. I appreciate that for anybody
• 0:56
  who's wondering about front row tickets.
• 1:00
  There are none. It's just you got to show up for
• 1:02
  the premiere. So if you're here or the
• 1:05
  premiere, I am very thankful for that.
• 1:11
  I know it's an early morning for a lot of folks here on
• 1:13
  Thursdays, but it is appreciated when you guys tune into the
• 1:17
  premiere and it's just generally, genuinely appreciated
• 1:20
  overall. But no, don't worry guys,
• 1:24
  there's no like buy an advance ticket to get, you know, the the
• 1:27
  front seat of the show or. Anything quite like that.
• 1:34
  So yeah, today's show is going to be about Loki veneration.
• 1:39
  What's up with this Loki veneration thing, this Loki
• 1:43
  worship? Why is it so controversial in a
• 1:48
  lot of hidden communities? We're going to talk about it
• 1:49
  today with Tyler. Tyler Vasquez, who has It's been
• 1:56
  a while since he has been on. My channel, I don't think he's
• 2:00
  been on the podcast. If he has it, it's been a long
• 2:03
  time, probably been several seasons ago, at least two.
• 2:07
  I know that he had been on a couple of live streams over the
• 2:11
  years, once or twice. But yeah, this, this, this topic
• 2:15
  actually came to me through Tyler because he was in a, I
• 2:21
  don't know, a Facebook group or or.
• 2:25
  Well, yeah. Let me just knock over my bait.
• 2:28
  He was in a Facebook group or something where the topic came
• 2:30
  up and he was hoping to get my thoughts on it.
• 2:35
  And I thought, well, I'll do a podcast on it.
• 2:37
  I've got thoughts and that's what a podcast for me is, is
• 2:41
  sharing my thoughts many times. And then he's like, I could
• 2:44
  probably say a few things about it too.
• 2:46
  And I'm like, well then come on the show, buddy.
• 2:49
  Tyler and I have been friends now for I don't know.
• 2:53
  We've never, like, physically met in person.
• 2:55
  We've just been online, you know, friends for several years.
• 2:59
  I don't know exactly remember. I don't remember exactly when he
• 3:05
  and I first connected on social media, but he lives not too
• 3:12
  terribly far away from me in another state, in the state of
• 3:15
  Kentucky. He's just a bit north and east
• 3:20
  of me. So we're going to talk about
• 3:22
  that today. We're going to bring him on here
• 3:23
  in just a moment. Before we do, please be sure to
• 3:26
  check the link tree link in the description or shown us of this
• 3:28
  podcast and follow me along on all my socials, subscribe to the
• 3:32
  YouTube channel, follow me on Facebook and Instagram, Twitter.
• 3:36
  I don't do much on Twitter these days.
• 3:37
  It seems to be a dumpster fire over there on that platform and
• 3:42
  I never got much traction with any ways to why I bother trying
• 3:44
  to start now, but if you are on Twitter give me a follow.
• 3:48
  I do try to share stuff, cross post things on my socials, but I
• 3:52
  am the most active here on YouTube of course and the
• 3:55
  Facebook and Instagram platforms are as they call it, meta now.
• 4:01
  So yes I am meta involved. But anyways, there's also a link
• 4:06
  tree, sorry. There's also a spring store in
• 4:08
  the link tree link for you where you can buy my merchandise, you
• 4:10
  can become a patron on Patreon, and there's a number of other
• 4:14
  things down there I'm sure so. So just check it out and see
• 4:17
  what fits you. And if the very least, please
• 4:20
  give this podcast an up, vote, follow, share.
• 4:22
  Like it. Thumbs up, whatever the thing
• 4:24
  does or asks. You to do it would be
• 4:27
  appreciated if you do that. Also wanted to call to attention
• 4:31
  that in a week and 1/2 or so from now so on September 10th
• 4:36
  because a Sunday here in Murfreesboro TN, myself and Greg
• 4:40
  Strong, The Raven Moon Hearth Kindred are teaming up to.
• 4:44
  Teach a Heathenry class. It is basically Heathen one O 1
• 4:48
  type stuff, talking about some recommended readings, how we
• 4:53
  interact with gods as heathens. You know some of the basic stuff
• 4:57
  that a lot of maybe newer folks just interested in coming into
• 5:01
  Heathenry are, are are exploring and wanting to know more about.
• 5:05
  So you know you've got he and I or him and I, right?
• 5:09
  English. That's the proper English.
• 5:13
  Right. him and I will be. You know, we have collectively.
• 5:20
  Shoot, I don't know. I don't know how long Greg's
• 5:21
  been. I know Greg has been a Pagan of
• 5:23
  some variety, at least most of his adult life.
• 5:27
  And I'm going on like 9 years, just shy of a decade here soon
• 5:33
  in my even practices. So I mean, we've got at least
• 5:36
  collectively, you know, several decades worth of experience that
• 5:39
  we're going to be. Offering to talk about this,
• 5:42
  this, this class. And so it's going to be here in
• 5:45
  Murfreesboro. The event details for that will
• 5:47
  be LinkedIn, the show notes and description as well.
• 5:49
  So if you're close enough and you want to come out, I'll spend
• 5:52
  the afternoon with us. It's going to be rain or shine
• 5:54
  because it is an enclosed sheltered pavilion.
• 5:59
  I say enclosed, but it's, it's outdoors, but it's, it is, you
• 6:03
  know, sheltered. So despite the rain, we'll have
• 6:06
  bathrooms available to us. There's a playground there.
• 6:08
  There's a nice day and bring the kids.
• 6:10
  Family friendly. You can't bring or have any like
• 6:14
  alcoholic beverages consuming going on there.
• 6:19
  So snacks and other beverages are welcome.
• 6:22
  But anyways, come on out Murfreesboro, TN September 10th.
• 6:26
  I'm going to be there from 3:00 PM till the park or till the
• 6:29
  millionaire closes. I think it's like 7 or 8.
• 6:32
  Plenty of time for us to get to know one another, talk, have a
• 6:34
  good time, maybe learn some things together, but yeah.
• 6:39
  We will be there to come on out and be there with us.
• 6:44
  Aside from that, there's also the Braven Moon Hearth Shadow
• 6:48
  Moot event coming up in just over a month's time, like a
• 6:51
  month and 1/2 or so from now. All the information and details
• 6:55
  for that will also be LinkedIn. The description and shown out
• 6:58
  that is in Springfield, TN and it is a three day weekend sort
• 7:01
  of long deal, almost three full days.
• 7:04
  You know, you can get there Friday and get your camp set up.
• 7:09
  It is a primitive camping style deal, right.
• 7:12
  So it's on one of the hardest members property.
• 7:17
  So it's, you know, you got to deal with your own camping.
• 7:20
  There will be outdoor restaurant facilities as like Porta Potties
• 7:23
  or Porta jeans that sort of thing.
• 7:26
  Vendors, classes, workshops, meals, ritual, You know, I think
• 7:32
  it's 20. $20.00 for the day or 45 for the weekend, you know.
• 7:38
  So if you get there Friday, you can camp Friday night, Saturday
• 7:41
  night and then Sunday's the last day and they closed everything
• 7:44
  off by lunchtime on Sunday. Or you can just come one day if
• 7:51
  you want. If you're going to come any day,
• 7:53
  I highly recommend that you come on Saturday.
• 7:57
  So again the dates stuff will be down in the description.
• 7:59
  I believe it's in the show notes.
• 8:01
  I believe it's it's like the weekend of the.
• 8:05
  Whatever. October 13, 1415, something
• 8:07
  somewhere around that justinity again dates are going to be down
• 8:10
  there. If I got them wrong or if I'm
• 8:11
  off a little bit, check down there and you will see what I'm
• 8:15
  talking about. So we're going to go ahead and
• 8:17
  welcome in Tyler here in just a second.
• 8:20
  In the meantime, enjoy this brief intermission and see what
• 8:26
  we can talk today about on the topic of Loki veneration.
• 8:31
  See you guys here in just a minute.
• 9:03
  All right, guys. Gals, boys, gents, ladies,
• 9:07
  everybody across Midgard. We've got Tyler here.
• 9:09
  Tyler Vasquez. What's going on, man?
• 9:13
  How's it going? Yeah, yeah, yeah, going pretty
• 9:15
  good. I was talking earlier before you
• 9:19
  got on here that this is, I think, is this the first podcast
• 9:22
  you've come on? I know you've been on like some
• 9:23
  lives that I've done. I think this is the first
• 9:26
  official podcast I did. I did your the, the.
• 9:31
  One episode a couple years back with Matt, but been a while.
• 9:37
  That one was, I think it was just us chatting on live.
• 9:41
  Yep, it was like a live stream or something on the YouTube
• 9:44
  channel. So, but you and I have been
• 9:47
  connected for about probably 3-4 years now.
• 9:51
  Something like that, I'm thinking.
• 9:53
  Over the something like that. Long distance, yeah, yeah, but.
• 9:56
  Communicated through other channels prior to that, but
• 10:02
  yeah, but you're you're up in Kentucky though, right?
• 10:06
  Is there the old? The old Cane Tucky?
• 10:09
  OK, why? That's a good time.
• 10:11
  So I've heard. Sometimes, but and you're
• 10:15
  heaving yourself. Obviously the hammer didn't give
• 10:18
  it away. Anything else about yourself
• 10:21
  you'd like to? Well.
• 10:30
  I've been a heathen for quite a long time, Pagan specifically.
• 10:34
  But as far as being a heathen, I have officially claimed that
• 10:41
  path for man 1314 years. Now it's a long time.
• 10:51
  Oh yeah, I actually, it was while I was in the military, I
• 10:55
  decided that was, I felt, the pool.
• 10:59
  Towards that, I got something in my eyes already.
• 11:04
  They're called eyeballs, man. They belong there, no?
• 11:07
  I got the I felt the pool while I was in the military and I
• 11:12
  decided now is the time to go with that.
• 11:17
  But then there was a brief period before that where I
• 11:22
  experimented with the other religions and paths and.
• 11:28
  Things like that. But excuse me, I'm gonna have to
• 11:32
  watch this. There is no excuse for you,
• 11:35
  Tyler. There's just, I believe it, but
• 11:38
  we'll give you a pass. I appreciate it anyway, but we I
• 11:46
  started with that and I got real heavy into learning all kinds of
• 11:52
  different paganism paths and history and.
• 11:57
  Just various different things. And I really hit home with the
• 12:02
  Heathenry, and over the last decade or so, I've really
• 12:08
  dedicated myself to the study and not only just the history of
• 12:11
  everything, but the the lore, the myths, the different
• 12:15
  practices of not only just like modern day, but like of the
• 12:20
  ancient, ancient heathens. Studying the different tribes in
• 12:25
  the different areas and really getting into the various
• 12:28
  differences between like Norse and Germanic and going all the
• 12:34
  way back up to the, you know, following my own ancestry and
• 12:37
  lineage into like Spain with the Visigoths and all that and very
• 12:43
  cool. So we we being me and my my
• 12:49
  wife, now we're. Very open about our practices,
• 12:54
  much to the disdain of our Christian surroundings.
• 13:00
  Oh yeah, you too, huh? Oh yeah, definitely.
• 13:04
  But we're still here and I'm actually working on.
• 13:08
  I like I said back here, I've got my own background about to
• 13:12
  be starting up my own podcast, Wizardly Cowboy.
• 13:15
  You can follow me. That is the same thing.
• 13:21
  I'm a game developer writer. I do a lot of things with the
• 13:27
  role-playing games like D&D. White Box specifically is my
• 13:31
  current game that I play. So just a lot of a lot of things
• 13:38
  are coming for the end, in the future, just all in the works
• 13:41
  right now. I've got a website up, I've got
• 13:43
  like 2 posts, so if you guys want to follow me there and look
• 13:47
  out for the future that's that's there but.
• 13:51
  Other than that, I do have a poetry book.
• 13:54
  It's called a I actually forgot. I'll probably have to.
• 13:59
  I'll get somebody to bring that to me later.
• 14:01
  But I do have a book of poetry out.
• 14:04
  It's called called Deity and it is a book of various poems from
• 14:14
  North Smithos that I they're all original poems and.
• 14:20
  From mostly N, but there's a few in there that's also tossed in
• 14:24
  from other religions. I think there's a triple got us
• 14:28
  for Wiccans. I think there's there's a couple
• 14:31
  African deities that somebody had requested.
• 14:33
  It's all just like requested stuff that people asked me to
• 14:37
  write for them. So that is something that is
• 14:41
  that's out there okay, great. So I'm going to anything that
• 14:46
  you have that you're talking about right now for the folks
• 14:49
  listening and stuff that go down to the description or show
• 14:52
  notes, everything that Tyler's talking about, his website, his
• 14:57
  podcast, anything that's live or current, his book, links for all
• 15:01
  that are gonna be shared in the description or show notes.
• 15:05
  So that way people can find you and support you to whatever.
• 15:08
  Degree I'll definitely be tuning into the podcast man.
• 15:12
  Whenever you whenever you got it up and I'm.
• 15:15
  Definitely hoping to get one up this weekend so keep an eye out
• 15:20
  I guess. Definitely.
• 15:21
  Yeah, absolutely. Cool.
• 15:23
  Well that's good, man. So it sounds like you're a busy
• 15:25
  guy. So we we got today's topic that
• 15:31
  came to to the show through you. You hit me up about it and and
• 15:38
  you know we we were able to figure out on the on the off the
• 15:41
  cuff really just shoot from the hit.
• 15:43
  Hey you want to come on the podcast with me about it?
• 15:44
  Cuz originally I was like I'll talk about it but Loki
• 15:46
  veneration and the controversy behind it in in Heathenry right.
• 15:51
  What's the big freaking deal anyway kind of thing you know.
• 15:55
  But so you had a, I guess you had engaged in the conversation
• 16:00
  in a Facebook group, I'm assuming with some people and
• 16:05
  you'd sent me some screenshots of the of the exchange.
• 16:10
  And from the from the looks of it, there were some pretty, I'll
• 16:17
  just say, like toxic approaches to the responses that were being
• 16:21
  given. Yeah, it was.
• 16:21
  I didn't see of course, see the whole thread, but was that was
• 16:27
  that kind of the the nature of or the gist that you want to
• 16:29
  elaborate without going into too much detail or what kind of?
• 16:36
  It was an adventure for myself, going on an adventure.
• 16:43
  Just like any, you know, Internet discussion it.
• 16:47
  Oh yeah. Quickly got way out of hand, you
• 16:49
  know, one person said. Some said something that another
• 16:53
  person didn't like and it was, you know, was it on the top of
• 16:57
  the Loki? Yes, yes, it was the, the
• 17:01
  initial question, just paraphrasing off the top of my
• 17:05
  head was. They have always the person had
• 17:10
  always felt pulled to worship Loki.
• 17:14
  And what was the general consensus on worship Loki and
• 17:18
  what the feelings were among the community that that people had
• 17:26
  that the opinions of people that were low key.
• 17:29
  Like what are the opinions that the community has towards those
• 17:32
  people and what the deal was with the the negative
• 17:36
  connotations that came with it? So my response to that was a
• 17:43
  generalization and I'm not talking like sweeping statement.
• 17:48
  I said in general a majority of the community often feels that
• 17:57
  that volatile nature towards people who worship Loki or feel
• 18:04
  affinity towards Loki. Because of the people who do,
• 18:11
  the nature of the people who do worship Loki.
• 18:15
  And that is. Again, that is a broad, sweeping
• 18:18
  statement. I know for a fact not everybody
• 18:20
  who worships or venerates Loki is this Edge Lord who's looking
• 18:25
  to cause problems as quickly as possible.
• 18:27
  I get it. But I think the biggest problem
• 18:31
  is you've reached a point where anyone who feels as if they're.
• 18:38
  Outcasted from society wants to fill affinity for Loki and it is
• 18:46
  a they feel that pool. They try to feel that connection
• 18:50
  but it's because they've and and.
• 18:54
  This is again probably a generalization, but in in my
• 18:57
  experience it has been a lot of the pool is towards the Marvel
• 19:03
  character Loki and not necessarily the.
• 19:08
  I I say factually correct, but I mean mythologically correct.
• 19:12
  Loki in from. From.
• 19:17
  So they feel this veneration towards a charming, charismatic,
• 19:27
  charismatic, misunderstood, you know, misguided outcasted
• 19:34
  character rather than the. Blatant wrongdoer that we see in
• 19:42
  the story that we see in the lore we see you know he, he knew
• 19:50
  even in the story with Balder, you know things like that.
• 19:52
  He knew these things were going to do, were going to happen.
• 19:55
  He may not have known that it would have killed him, but he
• 19:57
  still knew that it was intentionally going out of his
• 19:59
  way to cause harm. And that's not.
• 20:04
  Typically the people who feel veneration towards Loki, I don't
• 20:08
  feel like they're after who cause harm.
• 20:10
  They're not doing it to cause harm.
• 20:13
  But there are a lot of people who do feel that way.
• 20:16
  I see, And I think that's where a lot of the toxicity and hatred
• 20:20
  and the disdain for Loki worshippers does come from.
• 20:25
  You know, and I don't know, you know, and it's interesting to
• 20:28
  get other people's perspective on this and anytime.
• 20:31
  I mean, it's kind of like if you want to, if you want to as a
• 20:34
  content creator, you know from, from coming from the angle of
• 20:39
  posting content to keep people engaged, you're almost bound and
• 20:42
  guaranteed to have a spike in views and engagement when you
• 20:46
  start talking about Loki, right. It's like it brings everybody
• 20:49
  out of the woodwork, you know, more so than some of the more
• 20:52
  prominent gods of the lore and. Other source material that are
• 20:58
  actually attested to as being deities that were venerated.
• 21:03
  You know Loki just seems to get the the spotlight in in so many
• 21:07
  ways whenever he's talked about. And what's interesting is like
• 21:11
  last week's episode I talked about Sigin his wife and how the
• 21:18
  devotion the the the. You know the the the strength
• 21:23
  that she had to to stay devoted to him even out of all the
• 21:26
  things that he's responsible for and ultimately gets imprisoned
• 21:31
  for having involvement within which you know when we talk
• 21:34
  about like the lower in the myths I mentioned in the last
• 21:37
  week's podcast and I think it's important to mention here too is
• 21:40
  as as a general rule you know I think any, any, anybody with
• 21:44
  enough miles under their tires that have been doing this for
• 21:48
  the amount of time like you or I have been doing it.
• 21:51
  Don't look at the myths as like a Bible, right?
• 21:54
  We're not, we're not. And again, not trying to like
• 21:58
  over generalize or use like sweeping statements to speak to
• 22:04
  the entirety of of the heathen community.
• 22:07
  But I think that the the more you spend time looking at the
• 22:10
  like the historical sources that the actual source material of of
• 22:15
  the Germanic tribes then then where they migrated N into
• 22:18
  Scandinavia and what became the North.
• 22:21
  Countries. You you, you look at the myths a
• 22:25
  bit differently than you might you might have initially coming
• 22:28
  into it, you know, at least it was for me.
• 22:31
  It's like they don't, I don't do things.
• 22:36
  I don't do the things that I do based off of what the gods did
• 22:39
  in the myths, you know. And there is that aspect to
• 22:43
  this, you know, like I I, I use the term Norse mythology or the
• 22:46
  mythos. And I mean that, you know, and
• 22:48
  and I've gotten some kickback on the call it a religion, call it
• 22:51
  a faith because that's what it is.
• 22:52
  I'm like, it's the mythology is part of the faith, just like in
• 22:57
  Christianity, you know, the the, the stories, the, the the myths,
• 23:00
  the, the, the whatever, you know, the books from the Bible.
• 23:03
  I mean that that's the mythology aspect of the religion.
• 23:07
  You want to just break it down, you know what I mean?
• 23:09
  And I think every religion has that.
• 23:10
  So we were talking about specific things pertaining to
• 23:13
  the religion and the mythology does not.
• 23:18
  At least I don't think in my opinion should be anything that
• 23:21
  is reference to as This is why or how we should do things.
• 23:26
  There are other source materials that you can go to to learn
• 23:30
  about morals and ethics in terms of taking this from a religious
• 23:35
  aspect, but we're talking specifically about like the Loki
• 23:38
  thing and how you mentioned people getting drawn to this.
• 23:45
  Marvel character versus the The character from from the myths
• 23:49
  and what's what's interesting about the myths is as kind of
• 23:52
  roundabout way that I was getting to it is, you know Loki
• 23:55
  gets the shit end of the stick basically for killing Baldur,
• 23:58
  but he isn't even he ain't even the one that did it.
• 24:02
  You know, Holder is the God killer, essentially.
• 24:06
  You know what I mean? He's the one that did it.
• 24:10
  Sure, he was blind and he couldn't have really done it had
• 24:11
  not been for Loki's involvement with it so.
• 24:15
  But interesting point to take away there is from the mythology
• 24:20
  aspect like now there were plenty other things that he had
• 24:23
  direct involvement in. I mean Sif's hair, the the
• 24:28
  building of of Asgard, which the the wall.
• 24:31
  I mean the building of the the wall around Asgard.
• 24:34
  You know, like how the gods, how the gods get their.
• 24:43
  They're magical items. I mean, Theresa Gammon, Freya's
• 24:45
  necklace, gumnier, Oden, spear or drought near his ring meal
• 24:49
  near Thor's hammer. I'm sure there's others that I'm
• 24:53
  missing, But he, you know, had it not been for Loki in the
• 24:57
  myths, the gods wouldn't have some of the trappings and things
• 25:01
  that they're quite famously known for, you know?
• 25:08
  So like I don't know around here.
• 25:12
  I've noticed that the majority of folks who are
• 25:16
  unapologetically, I guess the term would be Lokean, right?
• 25:25
  I guess I hate that term. I mean if we had to classify, if
• 25:29
  we had to put a name to stuff, I mean we.
• 25:32
  Call our. Heathens And then there's other
• 25:35
  different names and stuff that I guess could go with it, but I've
• 25:37
  heard the term. Lokean.
• 25:38
  I've heard the term. Rokatru, which kind of comes,
• 25:42
  goes into more of Loki's offspring and the veneration.
• 25:47
  You know, one. I've never heard that one.
• 25:49
  Really. Rokatru.
• 25:50
  Yeah, yeah, that's a new one. I've never heard that.
• 25:53
  Yeah. So it's the, it's the veneration
• 25:58
  of the the chaotic forces. So specifically folks that are
• 26:04
  to my knowledge, you know that that would call themselves like
• 26:06
  Rokatru are. Into stuff like Loki, Veneration
• 26:11
  but also any of Loki's affiliates.
• 26:14
  So Jormungander, Fenderir, Hell, Anger, bolder.
• 26:20
  I mean like a lot of the the monsters and and and and what
• 26:24
  not of the myths get encompassed in that too.
• 26:28
  So but why such a controversy you think?
• 26:34
  I mean, aside from the fact that from your experience you've
• 26:36
  seen. It's the romanticization of the
• 26:43
  Marvel character versus what's in the stories.
• 26:45
  Like, what makes it so controversial to actual
• 26:47
  heathens? Besides that, do you think if
• 26:51
  there is, this is where things can turn sour for people, but
• 26:58
  it's the behavior of those people?
• 27:01
  I think it is. There's often a they're so
• 27:08
  against the grain of going against authority or being being
• 27:14
  that outcast, being the one who is outside of that the the
• 27:21
  natural order, quote UN quote of things.
• 27:24
  The structured order of structured order, yeah, the
• 27:27
  structured order is probably better term.
• 27:29
  They're they're so willing to do anything and everything within
• 27:34
  their power to be outside of that structure that it causes
• 27:38
  that chaos, it causes the disorder, and it often comes
• 27:44
  from the people who are, I guess, for lack of a better
• 27:49
  term, Loki. Again, I'm not saying I believe
• 27:55
  that's true. I'm not saying I believe that
• 27:59
  anybody who venturates Loki or worships Loki is out there
• 28:02
  looking for trouble. But I think there is a stigma to
• 28:07
  it because of that, because so many people have come from that,
• 28:13
  especially people who have been. Now, in my personal experience,
• 28:17
  I've experienced a lot of that, a lot of people who have that
• 28:24
  I've met that are, well, I I worship Loki Loki's my patron
• 28:28
  deity. They are the ones who are often
• 28:33
  the Edge Lords. They're the ones who are often
• 28:35
  the the people out there just to you know, the screaming.
• 28:41
  Everybody else is a snowflake. You know they're the kind of
• 28:44
  people who are you know, you're you're, I stop being so offended
• 28:49
  by everything and then run around saying some off the wall
• 28:55
  crazy stuff and it's like. That's interesting because I've
• 28:59
  from from my again from from where I'm in course we're in
• 29:04
  different. Areas and this is, this is
• 29:06
  what's really interesting to hear people's takes on stuff
• 29:08
  because I'm in one area of the country and you're in a not that
• 29:12
  far away from me but another area of the country.
• 29:15
  So the things you see that might not necessarily see the things
• 29:18
  be the things that I see or experience, but like in our
• 29:21
  area, I've noticed that folks who are unapologetically Loki in
• 29:27
  and that have an affinity towards Loki are folks that.
• 29:33
  Live an alternative lifestyle or have an alternative approach to
• 29:41
  their identities and and and things, you know, So a lot of
• 29:44
  the the LGBTQ community tends to have higher percentage for in
• 29:52
  our area at least of folks that are fascinated by low Q for the
• 29:57
  reasons I think that you're talking about, right.
• 29:59
  Because you look in the stories, you know what I mean?
• 30:01
  Like they they it's the Marvel, the Marvel character.
• 30:07
  And I'm not. I'm not.
• 30:09
  If you feel that that is how low key is in your beliefs, more
• 30:14
  power to you 100%. I support it.
• 30:17
  You know if you if you really have a divine connection, you
• 30:22
  feel that you are pulled to low key for that reason.
• 30:28
  I've got nothing against you. All of on this side, I don't
• 30:32
  think I'm seeing it here. Yeah, like because you're a
• 30:34
  Lokean or you believe you venerate Loki more than the
• 30:37
  other guy. That's not, that's not what I'm
• 30:40
  trying to that. But the generalization is from
• 30:47
  my experience, I've been other countries.
• 30:51
  I have been with people from other countries.
• 30:56
  In fact, my my buddy, he's from Florida.
• 30:59
  He's he's, he's living in Florida right now.
• 31:01
  We play DND all the time. He is a Pagan as well.
• 31:08
  I don't know really his opinions on the things, but I'm sure he
• 31:11
  could probably tell me completely separate stuff than
• 31:14
  what either of us are seeing, you know, because that's just,
• 31:18
  you know, the areas are so different.
• 31:20
  And I think that's, I think that's what's beautiful about
• 31:23
  just about all paganism in general is there are so many
• 31:26
  different takes on it. There are.
• 31:31
  Such a wide spectrum, you know. And that is the I think that's
• 31:35
  what pulls a lot of people towards paganism, especially for
• 31:38
  spirituality. That that that spiritual need
• 31:43
  and human human nature is the ability to express oneself
• 31:49
  through deity in any Pagan path is kind of the key aspect, I
• 31:57
  think, yeah. I can see that.
• 32:01
  And even if you look at if it's not the Marvel side of things,
• 32:05
  you know if you look at Loki in the stories, he is that
• 32:10
  necessary change. I mean he is involved in things
• 32:14
  that are that, right? Like, so the the whole, like,
• 32:17
  sis hair, you know? Like that was a shitty thing,
• 32:20
  you know what I mean? Like.
• 32:22
  Why would you do that? And then the end result of it is
• 32:28
  he gets gifts to all of the gods that.
• 32:31
  I'm sorry, Thor, here's your hammer and you're up here.
• 32:36
  All the gods get the things again that they're kind of known
• 32:38
  for. And it's like you almost go back
• 32:41
  and you go. I look at the misses in a way
• 32:44
  as. Lessons.
• 32:45
  Kind of like how you know the fables of Greek like Aesop's
• 32:48
  fables like there was a moral to the story, there was something
• 32:51
  to be learned in the story. And and does any of the of of
• 32:56
  Loki stuff in the stories align with a morality or ethics that
• 33:04
  existed at the time? You know, like you can't.
• 33:07
  You can't expect to do something against your own people.
• 33:11
  And not have to pay a a a recompense for it, not have to
• 33:14
  pay a price. For it and pay a price for it.
• 33:16
  You can't go against your your, your people and do something of
• 33:21
  of damaging nature and then not expect to be held accountable
• 33:26
  for it. And then look at ultimately what
• 33:28
  happens when he, while maybe not necessarily quote, you know,
• 33:33
  pulling the proverbial trigger on Walder, but being so
• 33:37
  influential and and so. So much a part of what ended up
• 33:42
  happening is that that was it. Like dude, you're out now.
• 33:44
  You're needing your outlaw. You're cast out of the society,
• 33:47
  you're in prison and and there is no you've you've killed one
• 33:49
  of your own. And look at the morality and the
• 33:52
  ethics that existed at the time. Kinslayers were pretty high
• 33:57
  criminals, you know and and stuff.
• 33:59
  And you know, you were outcasted.
• 34:02
  You were gone. Right.
• 34:05
  And if we look at that instead of this, you know.
• 34:09
  View of of the Marvel Loki as this kind of again this
• 34:12
  misunderstood and misguided you know charismatic bad guy that
• 34:18
  you love to hate and and like. There's so much more I think
• 34:24
  about the gods that you could take away from that we actually
• 34:28
  have information and and source material on than to cherry pick
• 34:32
  and find little things about a lesser God.
• 34:35
  And let's just say like Loki is involved in a lot of things like
• 34:38
  he's. He's Thor's companion in so many
• 34:40
  of his you know adventures and and then things in the stories
• 34:45
  and and he's so influential and in in making certain things
• 34:49
  happen in the myths. But like in terms of finding it
• 34:55
  finding him in in in older sources you know he doesn't show
• 34:59
  up prior to the Viking age. He doesn't show up in in any of
• 35:04
  the Germanic countries of the South, he, you know.
• 35:08
  That happened, I think, much later on.
• 35:12
  A lot of the history is lost to us and we're never going to know
• 35:16
  the true yeah, ways of you know and I think.
• 35:20
  That hasn't found anything yet about.
• 35:22
  I think that's something we need to embrace, just in general, as
• 35:27
  as a community, as if if we're ever going to get anywhere
• 35:31
  without at least about the hostilities between different
• 35:38
  beliefs and things. I I, I think we really need to
• 35:43
  embrace the idea that religion, regardless of path, faith
• 35:50
  itself, whatever you want to call it, is an evolving thing.
• 35:55
  It changes with society. It changes with you as you grow.
• 36:00
  You change. Much like my story, I began with
• 36:03
  studying all kinds of different Pagan paths and looking at
• 36:07
  different gods. You know, initially I was like,
• 36:09
  why am I pulled to all these different deities instead of,
• 36:12
  you know, what my family's grow tried to raise me up as as a, as
• 36:16
  a, you know, a Christian, as a Baptist.
• 36:18
  And I never felt connected to that ever.
• 36:22
  And that's something that they still have a hard time
• 36:26
  understanding. And I get a lot of Flack for my
• 36:30
  ideas that we should have evolve our faiths based on time and
• 36:37
  especially from like the recreationists trying to knock
• 36:42
  recreations. I think those guys are
• 36:44
  necessary. We need recreation, we need
• 36:46
  people doing the historical digging, we need to find cuz if
• 36:49
  things are found it needs to be remembered.
• 36:53
  Yeah, the the like the the Reconstructionist historical
• 36:57
  recons. Yeah, the the folks that really.
• 37:00
  I did a podcast not too long ago with Scott Shell talking about
• 37:03
  the pros and cons of that and kind of where we landed on it.
• 37:07
  Where I wouldn't say like definitively landed, but like
• 37:11
  one of the things that really stood out were the differences
• 37:16
  between subjective learning and objective learning.
• 37:21
  You know, and how academics at large, if you're going to
• 37:24
  approach this entirely and purely from an academic
• 37:26
  standpoint, there is no subjectivity.
• 37:30
  Allowed. You have to be objective to it.
• 37:32
  And it's like, well, it's this way or it's not, you know, and
• 37:33
  there and there's no in so much of this as a religion, as a as a
• 37:37
  folkway, as a living tradition, as a way that you live and and
• 37:41
  breathe and and it's, you know, experience life.
• 37:44
  There has to be that subjective approach to it.
• 37:48
  You know. You can't just be so cemented
• 37:52
  into archaeological, literary evidence, you know, like, it's
• 37:58
  great, you know? To that case in point, like
• 38:01
  we're going to talk eventually about Loki's affiliation
• 38:06
  potentially with one of the days of the week.
• 38:09
  You know, we're going to get that here.
• 38:11
  And just, you know, at some point, I think before the
• 38:13
  episode's over with. But there's some historical
• 38:15
  stuff that I'm going to reference to that point.
• 38:19
  You know, spoiler alert, the Germanic tribes didn't use days
• 38:23
  as time reckoning. There wasn't.
• 38:26
  There were no days of the week. So.
• 38:28
  So stick around to the end of this podcast folks, because if
• 38:30
  you want to know what a heck I'm talking about, you're going to
• 38:33
  have to stick around for that, you know?
• 38:37
  But yeah, the historical. No, you're fine as far as the
• 38:41
  historical reconstructionist goes.
• 38:44
  I was actually on a few years back.
• 38:47
  I was on another podcast. I won't say the name because the
• 38:52
  well, the person's not a very good person, we'll put it that
• 38:54
  way there now. So, but I was on there with the
• 39:02
  Ocean Kel toy and I actually talked to him briefly about it.
• 39:08
  And one of the things that I had put forth was that the stories
• 39:15
  themselves, a lot of them were written down much longer or
• 39:23
  much, much much further off after the the end of the Viking
• 39:30
  age. Then what people realize like
• 39:34
  hundreds of years after and sure we've got.
• 39:41
  They talk about like snorries pros that are right.
• 39:44
  Like when snorries pros that are those things that people say,
• 39:47
  people thump like a Bible. And that's another person from
• 39:53
  that same post about the Loki thing got on there and was like,
• 39:56
  well, I don't use anything other than this.
• 39:59
  And I'm like, well, I'm sorry to tell you, but all of your
• 40:02
  sources were written by Christians like.
• 40:07
  They were, I mean. Yeah, and it's just something
• 40:10
  you're going to have to deal with like it's.
• 40:13
  Well, well, no. This one was written in Old
• 40:15
  Norse. And I'm like, Old Norse came
• 40:16
  from Latin. Which Latin came from the
• 40:18
  Christians when they came up there?
• 40:20
  It was after Christianity had been put in like, I don't know,
• 40:26
  I'll tell you well, well, Old Norse is a Germanic language.
• 40:29
  Well, the the written language is what I was speaking about.
• 40:32
  Oh, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK yeah.
• 40:34
  The. The actual written translated it
• 40:36
  into Latin. Yeah, they translated into.
• 40:38
  Yeah, yeah, I got you now. So that was so.
• 40:44
  And another thing they I get I got chucked under the bus for
• 40:47
  was quoting Jackson Crawford. Dr. Jackson Crawford there, the
• 40:55
  general. He's not a heathen, so you know
• 40:58
  you can't trust him. He has no idea what he's talking
• 41:01
  about because he doesn't believe it.
• 41:03
  I'm like, he's literally one of the prime people I would trust,
• 41:08
  like one of the. People that I would look to for
• 41:11
  information, okay. So I'm gonna just, I'm gonna put
• 41:14
  a disclaimer out here for everybody listening and watching
• 41:16
  cuz this is this is one of them. Again like hot button topics for
• 41:20
  the reasons that you stated right.
• 41:22
  I think Jackson Crawford offers a great source of of of, of
• 41:29
  knowledge when it comes to Germanic language, the
• 41:33
  linguistic sides of things. I don't look to him for anything
• 41:37
  more than that. I think that he knows his stuff
• 41:40
  because he has a doctorate degree in Norse languages, you
• 41:44
  know, the Germanic languages. And he's he's, he's studied
• 41:48
  abroad and he's he's, you know, worked in academia to some
• 41:51
  degree. Whether he's, you know, taught
• 41:53
  at a university or just whatever.
• 41:57
  You know, he has credentials and stuff that back up and you know,
• 42:00
  suggestions and that he knows what he's talking about.
• 42:03
  I think Scott Shell is another great source for that.
• 42:07
  And he's a heathen, he's a Saxon heathen.
• 42:08
  He actually is living the life, he's doing the thing, you know
• 42:11
  what I mean? So if you want to.
• 42:13
  I think that comes back back around to what you said.
• 42:17
  It's good to have different sources of information.
• 42:23
  It's good to have to hear other people's perspectives.
• 42:27
  It's healthy. Even people just like I sit and
• 42:31
  I talk to my my stepdad, he's a, he's a he's a Baptist preacher.
• 42:36
  Like we sit and talk and discuss philosophy and things like that
• 42:39
  all the time. It's something that is to me.
• 42:42
  I find it fascinating. I learn a lot, and wisdom is
• 42:48
  wisdom from wherever it comes. I've been a parrot with that
• 42:52
  phrase, repeated that phrase a lot on my podcast.
• 42:56
  But it's a it's not a verbatim quote, but it comes from one of
• 43:02
  the sagas, the Banda manga saga. Wisdom, his wisdom from wherever
• 43:06
  it comes. That's the general theme of that
• 43:10
  phrase, right? And so much of what what people
• 43:14
  will boot down or discredit is that, well, if the information,
• 43:20
  it could be good information, right?
• 43:22
  It could be legitimately good information.
• 43:24
  Historically back valid information, right?
• 43:27
  But because so and so said it, and because of so and so being
• 43:31
  affiliated with this shit bag or this dirt hole or whatever, all
• 43:36
  of a sudden that information is negated.
• 43:38
  It's not valid because of where it came from.
• 43:43
  And I got to go you know look are we just going to, are we
• 43:46
  just going to be objective in that way and just go well or or
• 43:50
  or subjective. You know, are we just going to
• 43:52
  take what people are saying and not explore for ourselves, not
• 43:57
  think for ourselves, not have that independent free thinking
• 44:00
  going on and and you know learn for ourselves?
• 44:05
  Or are we just going to take it everybody's word for stuff and
• 44:09
  and be like well, because so and so said we shouldn't listen to
• 44:12
  that content or watch that video or read this material.
• 44:17
  That's not even really thinking at this point.
• 44:19
  That is just a symptom of modern society.
• 44:22
  Honestly, as a completely other topic, we could do a whole other
• 44:26
  podcast on that is, That is something.
• 44:32
  That is just a detriment to society.
• 44:35
  That people have fallen into the habit of just bandwagoning
• 44:40
  really is what it is. Just follow the path of least
• 44:47
  resistance. It's because everybody's saying
• 44:49
  it, then it must be right. Exactly, You know, I don't want
• 44:52
  to be wrong. And that's something I've even
• 44:56
  had to try to instill in my kids lately, because they they do the
• 44:58
  same stuff, you know, one kid decides to do something, they're
• 45:02
  all out there doing it. It's like, no, stop.
• 45:04
  That's not. Yeah, yeah, it's a dangerous
• 45:09
  thing to to get involved in, you know.
• 45:13
  But yeah, like, and it's funny how it kind of almost aligns in
• 45:18
  a little bit of a way with the low key thing, you know, because
• 45:21
  like you mentioned before. Right.
• 45:23
  People, for whatever reason, you know, bring up this image, this
• 45:30
  idea of Loki. I don't know, man.
• 45:31
  I mean, the thumbnail for this like I've had, I've had people
• 45:35
  yell at me, not like, literally yell, but like they've had
• 45:38
  people like complain to me, like, what's up with the Tom
• 45:40
  Hillston Loki, you know, look or.
• 45:45
  Like, blame Marvel, I guess, for this, because like, I didn't
• 45:48
  draw the thing like this, you know?
• 45:51
  Steven Still What's he supposed to look like?
• 45:53
  Like who the hell no. You know, we don't have I.
• 45:56
  Don't think there's any sources of description for Loki.
• 45:59
  Like the only thing we've got is that he's supposed to be half,
• 46:04
  half giant and so are like half of.
• 46:07
  Asco What do they look like? And the giant thing goes back
• 46:13
  into like I think a mistranslation of the word yoten
• 46:20
  because yotin like that that that word is cognate to a word
• 46:26
  that meant eater consumer like that.
• 46:29
  It doesn't have any connotation to someone of a of a giant
• 46:33
  stature or a bigger than the next person thing like it.
• 46:38
  But somehow over the years it's become associated with these,
• 46:42
  like formed or or troll like or just massive things.
• 46:46
  Like the Yotun are gods themselves, they're just a
• 46:48
  different tribe, just like the Vanier are different tribe.
• 46:51
  They're all. But since we're on the topic of
• 46:55
  the other thing, one image of that that I really liked, and
• 46:59
  that was probably the creep you'd ever had to be inaccurate,
• 47:03
  was the end for in the God of War game, where he's that big,
• 47:12
  he looked like the throne man. It looks like the modern strong
• 47:18
  men with the broad bodies, the big heavy, they eat a lot, they
• 47:23
  drink a lot, they but they can also lift a lot.
• 47:28
  And your thoughts guys are able to lift hundred 100 pounds, like
• 47:34
  world record, £1000 deadlift and stuff like that.
• 47:38
  And it's like you're not going to get that with Chris Hemsburg.
• 47:41
  Yeah. The body like that's just not.
• 47:45
  How that works? And for supposed to be this?
• 47:51
  Yeah, he's supposed to be this strong, the strongest of the
• 47:57
  gods. So you get you get this image
• 48:00
  supposed to be because he looks what most people consider.
• 48:04
  It's fast. They won't throw him throw the
• 48:07
  image. That's not realistic.
• 48:09
  He doesn't look like horrible. And again we come back around to
• 48:16
  people complaining that the image doesn't see what they
• 48:19
  feel. I should.
• 48:23
  Yeah, and I forget where I was even going.
• 48:29
  Sorry, sorry with that. No, no, no, it's fine cuz like I
• 48:32
  had this, but yeah, so like anyway whatever it was, it's a
• 48:42
  thing. You know people will will find
• 48:47
  almost like they'll find inspiration anywhere.
• 48:51
  And and I've talked to or not necessarily talk to people but
• 48:55
  I've heard from people that have have kept Loki as a focal point
• 49:00
  of their religious practice for a very long time.
• 49:04
  Like for as long as you and I've been heathen or practicing, like
• 49:07
  they've maintained and kept him all right as as as a focal
• 49:13
  point. And you know one of the
• 49:15
  interesting things that I've come to learn, you know, from
• 49:19
  that is if I can find it, I'm going to look at.
• 49:29
  Well, maybe not because the the ratio is a little bit off, but
• 49:36
  anyway I was going to I'll find it.
• 49:39
  Hold on. Yeah, here it is.
• 49:47
  They say that, you know, it's he's, he's the the unavoidable
• 49:53
  force. It's, it's, it's it's the whole,
• 49:55
  like, chaos thing of nature, right?
• 49:56
  Like things are going to happen no matter what.
• 49:58
  And he's just that physical representation of the unbridled,
• 50:04
  uncontrollable aspect of nature. I guess you could say that,
• 50:08
  right? And some of the stories like
• 50:10
  it's it's the inevitable right not to not to get back to Marvel
• 50:16
  or whatever, I am inevitable. But somebody said also too, that
• 50:21
  working with Loki for 10 years is one of he said he's one of
• 50:25
  the best deities I've worked with.
• 50:27
  And absolutely not evil. Now that's an interesting thing
• 50:30
  to to point out. Is evil right?
• 50:33
  What people think of as evil, they want to associate with Loki
• 50:38
  in a lot of ways. And I'm talking like the
• 50:40
  controversy of venerating Loki, right?
• 50:43
  He's, he's, he's, he's evil. Oh yeah, that is.
• 50:46
  That was definitely something in that comment section.
• 50:50
  But first to comment on what you had said.
• 50:52
  I had my mic muted about the change and being the natural
• 50:57
  order of things, I I would agree with that.
• 50:59
  Inevitably things are going to change and those things can
• 51:03
  sometimes be dark, they can be violent, they can be.
• 51:07
  Not good, you know, But change is natural and it does happen
• 51:13
  and we're we're just going to have to rock with it.
• 51:15
  Just like in the stories, the gods, if it they move on, the
• 51:20
  problem gets solved or it doesn't and then it moves on,
• 51:23
  right? And I think that the evil right
• 51:26
  that the evil thing comes from. Subjectivity.
• 51:31
  Yeah. It's definitely, I've always
• 51:33
  said evil, Good and evil is an idea of subject is subjective.
• 51:38
  It, you know what one person thinks is good is something that
• 51:41
  thinks is evil. You know there's plenty of
• 51:43
  people that you know thinks political moves and things are
• 51:47
  good. Other people think they're evil
• 51:50
  and that that that just leads to more conflict within the
• 51:57
  community. You know, just.
• 51:59
  The ideology of what is and isn't good or evil.
• 52:03
  Yeah, when you try to, when you try to universally label
• 52:10
  something like Heathenry, I mean like, and what is good or what
• 52:14
  is evil, right? I mean, granted, if you look at,
• 52:17
  and this is what I keep going back to is like, you can't go.
• 52:21
  You can't use any of the edits. You can't use any of the myths
• 52:26
  as your soul. You know, like the one entire
• 52:34
  thing that you're going to base your worldview on, because
• 52:37
  they're myths. They're stories.
• 52:40
  Learn about the ethics and worldview and understand why
• 52:43
  things were viewed by these people a certain way, right?
• 52:48
  Read The Culture of the Tutins by Grondbeck.
• 52:50
  You know, and other stuff like. That you're like.
• 52:55
  A reason I said earlier that that Jackson Crawford is
• 52:57
  somebody I would trust is because he comes at it from a
• 53:01
  historical and educational point of view.
• 53:03
  And that's where I have learned the most about our culture, our
• 53:09
  history as Heathens. That is where I have learned the
• 53:13
  most. It is a good thing to know your
• 53:15
  Lord. It is a good thing to know the
• 53:17
  myths. It is a great thing to have
• 53:20
  parts and quotes from them so that you can use and teach
• 53:23
  lessons. And explain them to your
• 53:25
  children as you're as you're growing and as you're.
• 53:29
  But if you are using those things as a basis for telling
• 53:36
  somebody what is right and wrong, you are wrong and.
• 53:42
  I will die on that hill, yeah. I was about to say, like, I've
• 53:47
  come on here plenty times and said, you know, like I'm not
• 53:50
  here to tell you how to be a heathen to do your right.
• 53:54
  You know, I'm not in that position.
• 53:57
  I'm just saying, like the the myths are not a basic
• 54:02
  instruction manual, they are myths.
• 54:05
  Case in point, right? Since we're talking about Loki
• 54:07
  today, like one of the big arguments that I hear about why
• 54:11
  people should include Loki in their practices.
• 54:16
  Is it because, well, Odin said that he would not accept the an
• 54:21
  offering to him if one wasn't given to Loki?
• 54:26
  And I'm like, hold up, wait a minute.
• 54:31
  What it says in Locust Senate is that Odin and Loki mingled blood
• 54:38
  at one point doesn't. There's no other reference and
• 54:41
  that I've come across anywhere in the stories that we have that
• 54:43
  exist today that suggest or or or give any greater context as
• 54:47
  to what that looked like or what that was for, right?
• 54:51
  But he mentions in Locust Center that they mingle their blood,
• 54:54
  right? And that if a drink is given to
• 54:57
  Odin, then a drink must be given to Loki.
• 55:00
  OK, my whole point with that and my whole thing with that is
• 55:04
  like, what the hell does that have to do with me and you?
• 55:09
  That's, you know, in the myth, that's their agreement.
• 55:13
  It's the whole Blood Brothers argument.
• 55:16
  One comes with the other, and I think that is a
• 55:20
  Christianization. Another one that's it may be
• 55:23
  vague, but I think it is. Again, it is the the idea of
• 55:27
  Odin, God, Odin, good low key, evil.
• 55:32
  You they one must go with the other like that is that's just
• 55:38
  something that I at least in my mind that I don't really have
• 55:41
  any kind of you know, educational material to back
• 55:45
  that idea up. It's just something that I heard
• 55:49
  it. That's what it sounds like to
• 55:50
  me. And you know, that's just,
• 55:54
  that's just how it comes off to me.
• 55:55
  I mean if somebody comes on here and they're able to explain it a
• 55:58
  little better and a little clearer, maybe I'll accept it.
• 56:01
  Maybe I you could change my mind.
• 56:04
  Yeah, I'm, I'm 100% open to changing my mind.
• 56:07
  If you've got an argument that you think you can change my mind
• 56:09
  with, awesome. Let's hear it.
• 56:11
  But up until then, that's the. That's how I view that at least.
• 56:18
  Yeah, but and. I think that's also I I don't
• 56:23
  think it's an argument against it though either.
• 56:26
  I don't think somebody can take well, Well, that evidence
• 56:30
  doesn't stand so well. Now I don't have to venerate low
• 56:35
  key. I don't have to honor low key at
• 56:37
  all or you shouldn't or should not be doing that.
• 56:40
  I don't think that's a something either.
• 56:43
  I don't so using the lower here as the opposite, right?
• 56:49
  This is what I should do because the lower says and then the
• 56:51
  folks that will say, well, this is what I'm not going to do
• 56:54
  because of what the lower says, right?
• 56:58
  Is that where you're kind of leaning it or is that where
• 57:00
  you're going with it? Like the the, the mirror
• 57:03
  opposite of the arguments? Because I've done that, you know
• 57:06
  what I mean? Like I've gone and said well I'm
• 57:09
  not going to include Loki in my practices because he is directly
• 57:18
  you know he's in he's he's he's a direct has he has involvement
• 57:22
  with the destruction of with with Ragnarok.
• 57:25
  I mean he's he he does the thing that incites Ragnarok right.
• 57:29
  The destruction of the gods and all that And also like
• 57:31
  mythologically speaking why would I want to bloat to to to A
• 57:37
  to a figure like that right. That's been.
• 57:40
  I think the actual answer to that, for me at least my point
• 57:44
  is for my part, is that it goes back to another one of your
• 57:51
  talks. Actually I learned about from
• 57:53
  you recently was the discussion of the Hearth Cult.
• 57:58
  I think that is that's part of yours, you know.
• 58:04
  I feel like if you feel that Loki should be included, go for
• 58:07
  it. If you don't feel that Loki
• 58:09
  should be included, don't do it. I I think that I feel that way
• 58:14
  about any of the deities. If you don't feel there, that's
• 58:19
  something that we do know about. History is that tribes or just
• 58:24
  individual showed more natural affinity to certain deities.
• 58:29
  Sometimes you found four, sometimes you found Odin,
• 58:33
  sometimes you found tears, sometimes you found.
• 58:37
  Small little things of the Elves Buffet, you know, just different
• 58:42
  stuff is there that we can see that they showed more affinity
• 58:48
  to than others. And that's okay.
• 58:52
  Yeah, 100. Percent and we know that they
• 58:57
  brought other deities in. In fact, we think that Odin is
• 59:01
  actually. An adoption of something else
• 59:06
  I've seen that is from historians is saying that the
• 59:10
  stories of Odin and are actually adopted from somewhere else,
• 59:14
  like just another tribe that's been That blew my mind.
• 59:19
  I didn't know that I was like, holy crap, you know, Yeah, yeah,
• 59:22
  yeah. And that's just, I mean, you can
• 59:24
  go down so many rabbit holes with, like, origin stories.
• 59:29
  And again that I think that loops us all the way back full
• 59:32
  circle again to to learn to. I guess my final point for that
• 59:37
  is learn from each other. Don't ridicule, don't, don't
• 59:42
  tell somebody they're wrong for believing the way they do.
• 59:44
  Learn why they do that under seek to understand more rather
• 59:49
  than ridicule and criticize and you'll be a better person for
• 59:52
  it. In my opinion, absolutely.
• 59:55
  You know, because we we have a tendency to go, oh, if you're if
• 59:58
  you're using the myths as your sole guideline of of the
• 1:00:03
  religiosity, then you're wrong. Like that's we we've said it.
• 1:00:08
  One of us both or both kind of alluded to that.
• 1:00:10
  Like well, you're wrong if that's what you're what we're
• 1:00:12
  saying or is like. But why are you using the myths
• 1:00:16
  when there's so much other stuff that you could be learning from
• 1:00:19
  actually teaching you about morals and ethics?
• 1:00:22
  Like why would you use stories? Instead of doing your homework
• 1:00:26
  and doing some other things right, we might take it from an
• 1:00:29
  approach of like, well, that's wrong because that's not what
• 1:00:31
  they're intended for us, not what they were ever meant for.
• 1:00:33
  It's what they've kind of been created into being over time and
• 1:00:36
  and and leveraged into being over time.
• 1:00:40
  It doesn't make sense to us. It seems wrong to us right to
• 1:00:43
  use mythology as the basis of our, you know, our our spiritual
• 1:00:47
  religious practices. And you know, we could, we could
• 1:00:50
  very well be wrong in that regard, but.
• 1:00:54
  I think that's part of the evolution of our faith.
• 1:00:58
  I think of the gross. Absolutely Cuz who who When you
• 1:01:03
  first came into Heathenry. Right.
• 1:01:06
  Dramatic Heathenry N Heathenry whatever, right.
• 1:01:08
  What were the, you know that's the first thing that you
• 1:01:11
  encounter. One of the first things that you
• 1:01:12
  encounter is the stories, the mythology.
• 1:01:15
  The first one I the first one I felt naturally pulled to was the
• 1:01:20
  story of tear and finger. And the reason was for that was
• 1:01:25
  because I was looking for a place to put my courage to find
• 1:01:30
  that, you know, I was in a place that didn't want to be.
• 1:01:33
  I was in, you know, I was in a a war-torn country away from my my
• 1:01:39
  exwife now my wife at the time, who had my unborn child.
• 1:01:45
  I was there during the childbirth.
• 1:01:48
  I didn't get to come home for that.
• 1:01:51
  Which, I mean, I'm not whining about it.
• 1:01:54
  A lot of people don't come home for that.
• 1:01:56
  But there's a whole story behind that.
• 1:01:57
  I won't get into it, but there was just a lot of things that
• 1:02:01
  happened one right after another, that I was just like,
• 1:02:03
  where do I go now? You know?
• 1:02:06
  Nothing that I've tried has really felt anything.
• 1:02:11
  And then I was, I was really at my lowest point and I felt lost.
• 1:02:18
  And I read. Magazine.
• 1:02:22
  I think it was a Smithsonian magazine.
• 1:02:23
  And it was talking about they had found a sword with
• 1:02:29
  inscriptions to tear on something.
• 1:02:32
  It was something to that regard. Or a helmet.
• 1:02:37
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:02:38
  And I, they found that. And I was like, what is what is
• 1:02:42
  that? It looks cool, you know, and it
• 1:02:43
  reminds me of, you know, Lord of the Rings and, you know, wow,
• 1:02:46
  cool. You know, I started doing my
• 1:02:49
  research and I was like. Why have I never heard of this?
• 1:02:52
  Why have I never been taught about this?
• 1:02:57
  And like, the more I started getting into it, the more I was
• 1:02:59
  like, this is where I belong, This is my home, You know, this
• 1:03:04
  is, this is what's calling to my spirit.
• 1:03:08
  And you know, doing that, I found all kinds of things that
• 1:03:15
  really led me to. Look into my own ancestry and
• 1:03:19
  find you know, my my Scottish origins, my you know, the the
• 1:03:23
  Spanish origins and just really just dig deep and find the
• 1:03:29
  materials there that were not because I needed some look.
• 1:03:36
  I'm a real he didn't know I'm a dependent of so and so.
• 1:03:40
  Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:41
  I'm a descendant of Ragnor Loathbrook now.
• 1:03:44
  I didn't need that. I just needed.
• 1:03:47
  I wanted to know why do I feel this way?
• 1:03:49
  Why am I pulled to this? And that was why.
• 1:03:51
  It's in my blood, it's in my spirit, you know, And that was
• 1:03:55
  that's why I felt so lost. And once I found that, I
• 1:03:59
  discovered who I am. And I think that's something
• 1:04:03
  that a lot of the logans are trying to do, is find who they
• 1:04:07
  are, is find a path that belongs to them, find their home and so.
• 1:04:14
  I I don't agree with the toxicity to, you know cap this
• 1:04:18
  off. We're coming up on the the the
• 1:04:21
  hour here. So yeah, you can drop whenever.
• 1:04:26
  To cap off my my whole thing, I think that they they found their
• 1:04:33
  home and I don't agree with the toxicity towards them.
• 1:04:36
  I think we need to learn from them.
• 1:04:38
  I think a lot of people need to welcome these people with open
• 1:04:43
  arms. I understand that that's what
• 1:04:46
  our ancestors would have done. I like that.
• 1:04:49
  You know, it's it's such a, it's such a the landscape, you know,
• 1:04:55
  that you have to navigate through nowadays is is is so
• 1:04:58
  strange at times. And I don't mean that in a bad
• 1:05:02
  way. I just mean that it is by and
• 1:05:04
  large, you know, strange. And we don't necessarily
• 1:05:08
  understand everything, and we're not intended to or meant to
• 1:05:12
  understand everything. Understand everything right.
• 1:05:15
  So the way people find where they find themselves we we would
• 1:05:21
  do better to be welcoming to to to that degree and and opening
• 1:05:28
  open to that degree to wanna learn and understand because who
• 1:05:32
  knows maybe the things that we have in our pursuit of order
• 1:05:36
  right and and folks like us who who who maybe don't have a have
• 1:05:42
  a place for Loki in our in our practices right we we want to
• 1:05:44
  avoid the chaos we want to try to keep order as much as
• 1:05:47
  possible understanding that chaos is a natural element of of
• 1:05:52
  existing. I mean things happen that you
• 1:05:54
  can't control it it happens we understand that but but but
• 1:05:57
  having that that that that sort of chaotic element in our lives
• 1:06:01
  and trying to understand maybe maybe by understanding that it
• 1:06:04
  gives there's a balance that happens right.
• 1:06:07
  The people that are so dissociated or disjointed or
• 1:06:11
  trying to find a home or or or trying to find a place and
• 1:06:14
  finding that place in this you know chaotic existence.
• 1:06:18
  Maybe the anchor point of others can help them find that palm in
• 1:06:25
  the storm and vice versa. Right.
• 1:06:28
  We can. We can learn from the tenacity
• 1:06:31
  and the the ingenuity and the how fluid they can be in
• 1:06:36
  situations. Yeah, Yeah.
• 1:06:39
  I think there's opportunity on both sides to really learn and
• 1:06:43
  not to just drive a nail into it and be so definitively against
• 1:06:46
  it, you know, and and to then in that defense.
• 1:06:51
  Become so toxic in the process, you know.
• 1:06:54
  And to grow from it, right? That should be our end goal.
• 1:06:58
  Yeah, I agree with that. Well, last thing I want to say
• 1:07:02
  though before I let you go was I mentioned earlier, you know, for
• 1:07:06
  people to stick around towards the end about the days of the
• 1:07:09
  week and and and and and and stuff.
• 1:07:13
  I mentioned it earlier. So here we are at the end of the
• 1:07:15
  podcast. The guys around here we are with
• 1:07:17
  it Saturday, a day of the week that somehow along the way has
• 1:07:23
  become associated with Loki. And you're going to find stuff
• 1:07:27
  online. Guys, if you go and Google it
• 1:07:29
  right now, you're going to find stuff online that would lead you
• 1:07:32
  to believe that Saturday is a day of the week.
• 1:07:36
  That is an Old Norse day associated with with Loki.
• 1:07:41
  And for the sake of time I'm not going to go into too much great
• 1:07:43
  detail. I will be leaving some actually
• 1:07:45
  good links and and things for you guys to check out in the
• 1:07:48
  description, show notes. So come back, go down there,
• 1:07:50
  over here, wherever, look it up for yourself, educate yourselves
• 1:07:53
  learning that way. I will provide those things for
• 1:07:55
  you. So I'll give you a bit of a
• 1:07:56
  heads up, a little bit of a head start.
• 1:07:59
  But one of the fun things to note is that Tacitus, who was a
• 1:08:04
  Roman historian who observed Germanic tribes that predate the
• 1:08:12
  Scandinavian countries, right, the old Germanic tribes in the
• 1:08:17
  South. Tacitus mentions in his I think
• 1:08:21
  it's Germania that, you know, they did not, the Germanic
• 1:08:25
  people did not observe time by days of the week as they did as
• 1:08:31
  the Romans did. They didn't have days of the
• 1:08:33
  week. They reckoned time by the sun
• 1:08:35
  and the moon, the the moon and the the Luna.
• 1:08:38
  Solar cycles were there gauges on when things happened, right?
• 1:08:46
  So they didn't necessarily have days of the week that the, the
• 1:08:49
  the days of the week, the names of the days of the week that
• 1:08:51
  that came into. A7 day week as we have it now
• 1:08:54
  happened much later on, and it happened through Roman
• 1:08:58
  involvement. Now Saturday being a day
• 1:09:01
  generating Loki or or having anything to do with Loki, it's
• 1:09:04
  speculated and it's deduced possibly that there's
• 1:09:07
  etymological words where Loki's name is cognate to a day or to a
• 1:09:13
  word that meant laundry lauger because lauger dog lauger day
• 1:09:20
  became a day of the week where people would ritually bathe
• 1:09:26
  again. There's going to be more
• 1:09:27
  information. People can do the research and
• 1:09:28
  I'm going to find. I'm going to find you some good
• 1:09:30
  source material to find information on that yourself.
• 1:09:33
  So check the description, show notes for all of that.
• 1:09:37
  But I don't think we can definitively say for sure that
• 1:09:42
  Saturday, the day of the week as we know it now in the whatever
• 1:09:46
  it was it the Gregorian calendar that we're using now or is it
• 1:09:49
  the Julian calendar whichever 1. Gregorian calendar that we're
• 1:09:51
  using now. Right yeah.
• 1:09:53
  Is that that it had ever had at any point in time an association
• 1:09:59
  to low key. So more information on that will
• 1:10:04
  be down in the description and show notes of the podcast.
• 1:10:07
  Tyler, anything else that you want to say to the folks before
• 1:10:12
  you bounce off of here? No, I think I said it all.
• 1:10:15
  Be kind to each other. Be good to each other.
• 1:10:17
  Learn from each other and grow. Continue to grow and learn.
• 1:10:20
  That's the best way to be a heated SO and folks that are
• 1:10:26
  Lokians or have a place in their practice for Loki or in their
• 1:10:31
  practice and have Loki as part of it.
• 1:10:33
  Comment down below put your. Comments down below there's
• 1:10:36
  gonna be a poll on the podcast platform.
• 1:10:39
  Or not a poll, but a Q&A. I'd love to hear from folks that
• 1:10:42
  listen to this, so be sure to. Check it out and I too cuz I
• 1:10:46
  want to learn more if there's something that maybe I missed
• 1:10:49
  or. We both misrepresented or
• 1:10:51
  something or didn't understand or spoke out about that you felt
• 1:10:55
  was wrong. Let us know.
• 1:10:56
  You know that's something if I definitely would like to learn
• 1:11:00
  more if that's something that you absolutely there might be
• 1:11:04
  somebody out here that knows something that nobody else does
• 1:11:07
  and this will be the thing that gets us all educated.
• 1:11:09
  We'd love to hear it, absolutely.
• 1:11:12
  But Tyler, thank you for taking time out of your day to come on
• 1:11:14
  here and and and chat with me about this.
• 1:11:16
  Thank you for suggesting the topic again.
• 1:11:20
  Everybody else check out Tyler's stuff that's going to be
• 1:11:22
  annotated in the show notes and description of this podcast.
• 1:11:25
  His podcast coming up, What's It Called, Wizard.
• 1:11:28
  Wizardly cowboy. Wizardly cowboy.
• 1:11:32
  And also his book on poetry. So all that stuff will be linked
• 1:11:34
  down there. You guys.
• 1:11:35
  Be sure to check it out. Thank you all so much for your
• 1:11:38
  support. And until we talk to each other
• 1:11:41
  again, and the gods continue to notice you, and may your
• 1:11:45
  ancestors smile upon you, we'll see you in the next