Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / 13 | Living with Eating Disorder Loss: The Reality of Grief in Recovery with Briana Rogers, LMHC

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13 | Living with Eating Disorder Loss: The Reality of Grief in Recovery with Briana Rogers, LMHC · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Cassandra: Hello, friends. I'm Cassandra Harris-Towner, and today I'm missing my dear friend and co-host, Daiana Bernard. as licensed mental health counselors, we like to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. So welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We're so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses ⁓ create a meaningful path forward. Please subscribe and share this episode. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need know their grief is valid. Let's dive in. today, because it's a little bit different, I'd like to introduce our guests early so that she can help me lay some of the groundwork and have a little bit of discussion surrounding what it is that we're doing. it's my pleasure to introduce Brianna Rogers. Brianna is a licensed professional counselor and licensed mental health counselor with a private practice called Naturally You Counseling and Wellness. She serves clients across Connecticut and New York. She also specializes in eating disorders and body image and has dedicated her work to helping individuals heal their relationship with food, their bodies, and themselves. Brianna also supervises emerging clinicians at Fairfield University, bringing both clinical depth and a personal investment in this work to everything she does. Welcome Brianna. Briana Rogers: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Cassandra. Cassandra: Thank you so much for being here. was very excited that you wanted to join us. Briana Rogers: Yes, this is amazing. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast and to talk about this really important topic. Cassandra: I'm ⁓ excited to see what comes up because this is ⁓ really large and encompassing area for so many people. And I think it's really, really important to talk about ⁓ quiet loss that surrounds ⁓ disorders and body images and all the things ⁓ and ⁓ what like actually recover from both because we don't think about that. We don't think about the fact that it's like losing a part of yourself. Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. there's so much ⁓ emphasis on being amazing ⁓ and sense of freedom ⁓ and your life back. ⁓ a lot of times the recovery space, we forget to mention how there's a lot of loss and a lot of grief ⁓ in moving on from eating disorder. and something that has served a purpose in somebody's life. we oftentimes don't look at it that way. We look at it as something that's really detrimental ⁓ harmful to people. ⁓ while that's true, there a sense of loss ⁓ in letting go of ⁓ an disorder. So I'm really ⁓ appreciative come here and talk about that today. ⁓ Cassandra: Well, we're really appreciative that you made the time for us. So thank you. when we think about it in terms of loss or grief, one of the first things that occurred to me was that this could have fallen under both ⁓ ambiguous and that like disenfranchised grief. We've talked about it quite a bit in this podcast, but just to kind of see how it applies to ⁓ eating It's the grief of it's gone, but not really, right? Like ⁓ it's... losing the self before the eating disorder feels almost distant and unreachable. Or in recovery, the eating disorder is gone but still whispers and still stays with you. So I'm just wondering, like, when terms of ambiguous loss, how do you think that applies to eating disorders? ⁓ Briana Rogers: is something that is really difficult in somebody's recovery journey is ⁓ when they're entering recovery, they will go ⁓ back forth between ⁓ their ⁓ identity themselves and developing ⁓ themselves the eating disorder and then fear the letting go of it and dip a toe back in because they're afraid of fully letting go. So the ambiguity of recovery is very real because somebody could go through a day of going back and forth and back and forth and one minute choosing themselves and their new life without it. And then the next hour, fearing what's going to happen if they move forward and going back to maybe some of the behaviors that Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: were part of their disorder. So the ambiguity there is very real and it's very uncommon see somebody in recovery who doesn't experience that. And I think it gets lost, like I was mentioning earlier, ⁓ in the ⁓ of noticing and acknowledging the back and forth that will happen, inevitably. ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: because it is such a transition that the person is going through. Cassandra: And I can imagine that along with grief and this ambiguous way, there's also a lot of shame that we don't think about. Because if we're having these moments where we dip our toe back in and then we have a little bit of shame about that or a lot of shame about that, that can cause that sort of spiral that gets you right back to where you started. Briana Rogers: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. Shame is something that comes up so often in this work. And, you know, I think that something that's really hard for people who are going through recovery, ⁓ when they have like what you would call maybe like a slip up, maybe not a full relapse, but a slip up in their recovery, where they might dip back into some behaviors. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: there can be so much ⁓ like embarrassment or questioning of themselves or fear of, acknowledging or ⁓ I guess isn't ⁓ the best but admitting that they did actually, you know, go back into some behavior that isn't helpful for their recovery. ⁓ And so the shame is very, very ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: very heavy at times because while the ambiguity is very normal, we don't talk about it as often. So people feel that shame pretty heavily when it happens. Cassandra: I feel like this also leads into what I had touched on just a minute ago about it being disenfranchised grief as well. Because this sort of grief does not get socially recognized or validated. Like you just said, not only are you mourning the loss of this thing that's always worked for you and well, worked for you, but didn't really work for you. ⁓ you're your body, your time, all the experiences that you missed. Letting go the eating disorder, this self. other people might not recognize as a loss because they think it's just food or they think it's just a bad habit or they think it's just X, Y, and Z. And that can cause us to minimize our own pain, I would imagine. Briana Rogers: something ⁓ really confusing to people who have never struggled with eating disorders is when somebody's in recovery ⁓ and a friend or one tells them like, ⁓ you look so much healthier ⁓ or ⁓ my gosh, doing so amazing. ⁓ That can be like knife in the heart to somebody in recovery because they're like, ⁓ my gosh, this means. that I don't have this thing anymore. And so, to explain that to someone who's never been through it is just like trying to explain something, you know, magic to someone. It's just very difficult because there's this very, very deep rooted purpose that the eating disorder had. ⁓ And grief that's there and letting it go and that being acknowledged can be really hard for people to... ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: to sit with and to accept. Cassandra: It's just making me think of people who are well-meaning ⁓ don't quite understand the severity of what it is that they're saying or how much actual weight it can carry. I've lived with ⁓ form of disordered eating most of my life while I still live with it. ⁓ it's really interesting to me because ⁓ form is more unlike the compulsive overeating side. And I've worked a program for years and years and years around this and trying to break some of these cycles and trying to break some of these habits. And the response I get from others, especially like when I'm at the gym, ⁓ you look so good. ⁓ you look so different. ⁓ you've had such a change. Like all these things that they mean to be so positive, but makes me very hyper aware of how I used to present to the world. And so there's a misunderstanding of Briana Rogers: Mm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: Yes, you're being kind, at the same point in time, not understanding what someone else's experience is like. Briana Rogers: I love that you ⁓ that point up. And thank you so much for sharing part of your experience. ⁓ is so true. ⁓ ⁓ that they're, being positive or complimentary or sharing something good. ⁓ And ⁓ messaging actually the opposite. ⁓ And this part of the work too, when ⁓ I work Cassandra: you Briana Rogers: clients, families, their spouses, friends, whoever wants to be part of their support system. This is something that we talk about pretty often because comments about bodies, comments about habits, behaviors, ⁓ I noticed, you in your case, right? Like, ⁓ you are like choosing such healthier options and you know, things like that. It's, it can make you second guess yourself. like, okay, what did that mean about me before? And then what does that mean about me if I do slip up, right? Or have a relapse? Does that mean I'm not worthy? Does that mean I'm not good enough? Does that mean I'm bad, ⁓ So so ⁓ eating disorders very layered. And so the grief around them ⁓ in multiple whether it's during the ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: actual period of time that somebody is suffering with one or during their recovery process. It's very complex and so many different factors play into it. Cassandra: Absolutely, absolutely, because it's a coping mechanism, like letting go of the food as an emotional regulator, something that suppresses or heightens or soothes the emotions. It's not just about the behavior, it's about what the behavior does for you. And so letting go of your coping mechanism, your best friend, your confidant, all of the things that come along with that, it even brings it into Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: Functional grief it brings it into the something that felt like it worked even if it harmed Food behaviors might have numbed overwhelming feelings or created intensity when feeling empty or Provided structure even ritual like so many families have so many rituals around food So ⁓ lose that is like losing the party yourself Briana Rogers: Yes. ⁓ way that eating disorders ⁓ serve purpose ⁓ is so undermined, you know, and ⁓ that's I was referring to earlier in the podcast was, we look it as very harmful thing. And like, why wouldn't you want to get rid of it? You know, if you would just do x, y, and z, you could move on and then you can be ⁓ better and you can live your life. What people don't realize is that eating disorders are doing something for someone and oftentimes are a thing that are saving somebody's life, which is can feel so polarizing and counterintuitive and confusing because we're like, it's taking your life. But at the same time, it's actually an assistant to Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: dealing with something else. And so when we take that away, the person is now stripped of coping and what are they left to do? Right? Like, how do they handle their emotions? How do they deal with what else is going on? And so that is a big part of understanding eating disorders and that grief part, which is like, if I don't have this thing, what do I have then? Cassandra: Mm-hmm. So it plays definitely into even identity and things of that nature, because if you're losing that, you're losing a part of yourself. Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. And to kind of roll off of the identity piece, ⁓ thinking, you know, along the lines of more restrictive eating disorders. A lot of times people will feel really proud of themselves to be able to do this thing that other people have a hard time doing, you know, and while it's not, it can very much not be healthy, and it can be very detrimental. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: it gives people something to be proud of, to feel special about, to be the one who can do this thing that other people can't. And so if we take that away from them, then they really just don't know who they are and what makes them important or special or unique. And that's part of the work of therapy and helping somebody develop their identity, it takes a long time and it could even be passed when someone has eliminated disordered behaviors and really gone into like maintenance in their recovery to where they're still grieving the loss of that identity and maybe even the body that they had too that went with the eating disorder. Cassandra: And then I'm thinking about body image. I'm thinking about the body changes, right? So before even entering into any sort of recovery, before entering into any sort of therapy, before going into any kind of rehab, I can only imagine that the anticipatory grief about moving into these unknown body states has to be absolutely overwhelming. It's grieving before even letting go. It's when you're in like that contemplation stage where you're you're afraid of weight changes or emotional exposure or not having those coping mechanisms that you've had the entire time morning that perceived safety of the disorder ⁓ even as people who have the compulsive ⁓ side of it's safety, there's safety in having that way. they if there's that ⁓ has ⁓ Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: impacted your life in a traumatic way and no matter what that could be, if you have a physical barrier, the likelihood, whether it's rational or irrational, the thought process could possibly be the likelihood of that happening again is less if I keep this physical barrier between myself and others. So the anticipatory grief releasing that has to be astounding. Briana Rogers: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love that you mentioned like whether rational ⁓ irrational because this kind of thing can happen to anybody. And I often say, ⁓ know, I don't care how smart you are, how much intellect you have. Eating disorders can happen for anyone regardless of how logical or rational they ⁓ because ⁓ our body will actually and our brain will function in ways to keep us safe. And if it thinks that it's going to keep us safe by either carrying more weight on it or being extremely frail, it's going to do that. It's going to help try to keep us safe however it can. And so Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: Even though people can be like, I know this isn't good for me. I know that this is harming me. I know that this isn't benefiting me. It's really hard to stop the behaviors behind it because the brain is saying you need to do this to be safe. And so we have to teach people how to be safe within themselves and trust themselves again. But you're absolutely right about the anticipatory grief because that can often be one of the things that has people pausing before actually, committing to change ⁓ and forward with like action steps to shifting out of ⁓ the disorder. There has be a lot of, processing and like I said, building trust within ourselves to be able to handle what's next when we don't have that body or the disorder anymore. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. I'm also wondering how much trust must they have in the person that's supporting them in this as well, because Briana Rogers: Mm. Cassandra: I would imagine that a lot of... the results from eating disorders is not only not trusting yourself, but also not trusting others to be safe and being able to share with them. Briana Rogers: You're so That's why it takes such a specialized ⁓ individual to sit folks in the space and ⁓ be a very, honest, ⁓ open, trustworthy person to ⁓ sit somebody this transition. And as well, like I said, there has to be supportive work in the family or with friends or whoever is part of the support system because we're really taking incremental steps to rebuilding that trust. And yes, rupture and repair is very real, but that can take a long time too if there's a rupture in the process. So. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: ⁓ okay if that happens, but it kind of delays the rest of ⁓ process. And it just creates ⁓ of that confirmation bias within the individual. Like, I knew they wouldn't be able to handle this. I knew they wouldn't be able to be there for me. Or I knew they want to understand, right, if you get it wrong. yeah, ⁓ is that. ⁓ Cassandra: you Briana Rogers: Whether it's the therapeutic relationship in alliance or the relationship between the person struggling and their support system, it all matters so much. Cassandra: It's not only with the therapist, it's not only with the family, it could be friends, could be other loved ones, it could be any sort of thing that surrounds this person. ⁓ But I'm just thinking about the different family patterns and things that that are disruptive. ⁓ Especially, I know we talked a little bit earlier about identity this, but I kind of want to look at it a little bit more. because it does disrupt family patterns, it does disrupt relationships, especially when your relationship with food changes, if they're expecting X, Y, and Z from you, and you do A, B, and C, that can be really disruptive and confusing to a lot of people. can remember a time where I've, like personally, I've been off of like refined sugar for five years because as part of my trigger, it's part of things that caused me to binge. So it's just something that I've done. And I went to a family gathering with my husband's grandmother And wanted me to eat this pie with them. And I had to make up some excuse not to. ⁓ But it ⁓ was a little bit and navigating that moment. that sort of disruption because I had to kind of deviate from what the norm is. The norm would be go and get a cup of coffee, sit down, eat, enjoy, chat, and do all the things. And I was still able to partake in that, but not in the same manner that I would have prior. So maybe there was a slightly different result. So I'm just wondering, as far as eating disorders ⁓ concerned, how do we navigate the identity grief that goes along with that? How do I... ⁓ Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: navigate, like you said earlier, who am I without this, or the loss of structure or control. I've been thinking a lot about control too, because a lot of grief can come up when you feel like you don't have the same control that you had before. Briana Rogers: Yeah, you just brought up two kind of separate things there. And we'll talk about control first, but I wanted to hop back to like the identity piece because there's grief for our loved ones, right? our loved ones can go through a grieving process while somebody is changing or doing something different. But Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: Yeah, the lack of control is a huge part of this. And when somebody perceives that they do not have control over something that has given them a big sense of control, that can be detrimental too. That can be really hard. And that's why, It kind of depends on the approach in therapy sometimes. Like sometimes harm reduction can be really helpful because we don't want to strip somebody of the one thing that they feel they have control over. And so if we take that away, like can that do more harm than good? And so it's a very careful, you know, Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: titration of tolerance and things of that nature and truly understanding the person and how, you know, whatever they need to do to like move through and out of their eating disorder, like maybe it is like still engaging in some things, but taking away some others and just to keep that safe place for them and make sure that they're within their their window of tolerance through that process. we don't want to even harm or further grief or further sense of loss. And so it is like a very careful there. But to go back to the identity part too, ⁓ right? Like a lot of we'll see families like you mentioned who really, ⁓ they find so much joy so much. connection through food and they really expect their loved one to keep those traditions and values even if they might be harmful to them. And on the flip side, there can be, I'm sure you heard of like, almond mom, right? ⁓ a ⁓ like who are ⁓ you ⁓ very healthy like doing all of these, quote unquote healthy, right? ⁓ But... doing very extreme behaviors with food. And if you are helping someone find more flexibility and less rigidity around things, that could be like, wait a second, what do you mean this isn't right? Like our society tells us this is what we're supposed to do and this is what healthiest looks like. And so there's a lot of questioning ⁓ what tells us is healthy and right and what really is right for ⁓ us, Cassandra: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Briana Rogers: what brings us the most peace, the most freedom, the most being within ourself. Cassandra: And I can't imagine it's got to be very personalized to each person because something that works for me wouldn't work for you and something that works for you wouldn't work for me necessarily. I know that there's got to be like a specific pattern when you're approaching all of these things, but like I said, every remedy suits every person. Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: So it's gotta be tricky trying to learn how to navigate this and then throwing in all the extra feelings that you haven't felt before. might not have felt grief before, they might not have truly felt anger before, or sadness before, or joy before, ⁓ because there was this one thing that they could control that ⁓ them safe from all Briana Rogers: Yeah, yeah, the controlling and the numbness together can really keep somebody within a very ⁓ ⁓ of emotion. ⁓ ⁓ lot of times people will say as they are on their recovery journey, ⁓ I worse than I did before, like, I want to go back to my disorder, because that felt better. ⁓ And have to really explore that because we're like, did that feel better or you just actually experiencing emotion now? ⁓ you didn't before. before you were just neutral as neutral could be. There was no happy, there was no sad, there was, it was just numb going on. ⁓ And now ⁓ that breaking out of that coping ⁓ mechanism, Now you're actually experiencing your Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: your bandwidth of emotion, the highs, the lows, and that can be really scary for people when they've gone so long without experiencing that. They can feel like, is going on with me? This is not, this is not better, but it's actually them just getting to know themselves and learning how to cope in ways that are more beneficial for them. Cassandra: And I can imagine this kind of leads into what is known as the recovery paradox, like the idea of not only addressing overlooked grief, when, but making sure that the treatment doesn't only focus on the positive outcomes of like getting your life back. It can be like that push and pull of I want to get better, but I don't want to lose this. Briana Rogers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Cassandra: And all of that can kind of feed into that grief and shame cycle that we were talking about way back in the beginning. And even kind of the nostalgia for the pain because, like you said, they felt better before. Briana Rogers: Yes, yes. And something that like, you know, you said the push and pull and the like, I want to get better, but I also want to keep part of this. Something that comes up a lot as people are moving through the recovery, perhaps they have either weight restored, or they've gotten to maybe more of a baseline and where their body is kind of functioning optimally. ⁓ And ⁓ like, But I have my life back and we have to pause there sometimes because we're like, do you or are you still consumed with the thought of food or the thought of your eating disorder or the thought of the way your body used to be or the thought of how it felt to have that? Because people can be functioning again. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: regularly, right? Like, functioning, but is your mind free? And so it's like, how do we know ⁓ are in a place of ⁓ recovery? Or is there still that grief part that keeps going back and having that nostalgia of, ⁓ you know, way things used to be or being able to cope in that way? Or, ⁓ you know, I maybe ⁓ Cassandra: . Briana Rogers: Maybe I could go back for a little while because that felt like quote unquote felt better because maybe right now I'm having a really hard moment and I don't know how to deal with it. So I'd rather have deal with I'll go deal with that instead. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. And there's, this is something I can speak to from experience. There's grief in the knowledge, though, that once you know better, you kind of have to do better. Because, ⁓ you can go back, but once you know what you know, you can't unknow it, ⁓ it's never going to feel the same way again. Like, going back to the previous behavior is never going to feel as fulfilling. It's never going to feel as... Briana Rogers: Mm. Cassandra: helpful, it's never gonna feel as not oppressive, what's the word, like... ⁓ Briana Rogers: Yeah, like suppressing. ⁓ Cassandra: There we go, so impressive. It's never gonna feel the same way because you know better. You've lived life the other way. Briana Rogers: Yeah, and that is this might sound a little strange, but that is something that's talked about in the process is like, well, hey, you know, like, why don't you just give recovery a try? And if you don't like it, who's stopping you from going back, you know? And you're right, like that is the thing is going back doesn't have the same the same effect as it did the first time. Maybe for some people, I won't say that's across the board, but ultimately it's like doing something, but right, the knowledge of knowing what recovery can feel like and does feel like, that can ⁓ be something people, ⁓ like you the shame, the shame around that, like, well, I... I should want that, I should stay in that, but like I desire going back to this and then there's shame in that desire, right? There's so much, so many different parts of us in our head when we're trying to decide and trying to take the best course of action for us. Cassandra: Which is why this also falls under complicated grief. Not only is it ambiguous loss, not only is it disenfranchised grief, but this is incredibly complicated grief. The grief loops and tangles or sometimes even gets stuck. And this is probably why recovery can feel like almost like grief wrapped in courage. Briana Rogers: Mm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: because it takes a lot of courage to let go of something that's always served you in the manner that you feel like it has. Briana Rogers: Yes, yeah. I mean, the honesty that people have to have with themselves throughout the process is so courageous because you're addressing things that you weren't addressing when you had the eating disorder. once you... decide to not lean into the eating disorder anymore and come to know and find out what was under there. ⁓ It's so courageous. It's amazing when people choose to face that instead of going back to the eating disorder. And there's no shame if people do. It makes so much sense when they do, right? Because it's terrifying. to face what is really under there. But when people do face it, that's how they continue to set themselves free more. Cassandra: Absolutely. It's a beautiful reminder. Now, at the end of the podcast, at the end of the show, we do something called living loss lessons. But before we kind of transition into that, I was curious, is there something that really means a lot to you that you think people need to know about living with the grief of disorder of eating or eating disorders. Briana Rogers: I think that people need to know that it is a very normal part of the process and that if people are grieving with the loss of their eating disorder that there is no shame in that and that there is nothing wrong with them for that because people who haven't experienced it might say like, why would you Why would you feel sad? Why would you feel angry? Why would you feel upset about grieving the loss of something that was not beneficial to you? And there is so much more to it than what people realize. And so if somebody is struggling with an eating disorder and they're grieving the potential loss of it, or they're going through recovery and they're missing it, Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Briana Rogers: I just want people to know that that is a very normal part of the process and that even years down the road when you're in recovery, you might feel that nostalgia and you might feel like, huh, that felt kind of better then, but that's because there was something that was serving you at the time. So I just want people to know that like it is very normal to feel this. Cassandra: I do have one question kind of piggybacking off of that. If I'm a person that loves someone that has an eating disorder, what is the best way I can support them? Briana Rogers: Yeah, this is such a good question. And I think people who love someone who's struggling with an eating disorder, just they want to fix it, right? They want to take it away. They want to see something that's going to help. And in reality, all you can really do is offer to be there for that person and create a safe space for them to express how they feel and to actually be themselves through this process. And it might sound cliche, but come at it with a non-judgmental place for that person to really, you know, process their grief. Be a safe person. You don't have to say anything magical. You don't have to do anything magical. You just have to be a safe person. And that means just showing up for that person. Cassandra: I love that. Thank you for being a safe person for so many people. Thank you for doing what you do. Briana Rogers: It's my pleasure. Thank you. Cassandra: ⁓ we wrap up today's conversation, we're moving into the favorite part of the show, which is our living loss lessons. This is where we bridge everything we've talked about today and we've talked about a lot. ⁓ we put it together with tangible takeaways that someone might be able to use right now. These lessons aren't about fixing the pain, but about finding a way to carry it. Sometimes it's a tool to practice and other times it's reflecting on the meeting you built from a loss that you never asked for. It's the strength that you've gained even in the midst of the hard stuff. ⁓ so Brianna, before we go, is there ⁓ one living loss lesson that learned from this journey that you would our listeners to be able to hold on to? Or two, you can do two of two. ⁓ Briana Rogers: Yeah. Yeah, so one would be that grief is not a sign that you're doing it wrong. And in recovery and in, you know, any kind of loss, we treat grief like a problem to solve, or a phase to push through. And, if letting go of an eating disorder brought up sadness or mourning or even a strange sense of longing. ⁓ It's a real loss and it deserves to be honored as such. ⁓ And the second lesson I would say is you're allowed to grieve what hurt you. And that might sound paradoxical, but ⁓ you don't have to only feel relief or excitement about letting go of an eating disorder. You can feel grief for something that did. cause harm to you because letting go is an act of loss. And so it deserves to be felt. Cassandra: Thank you for that. And as we're talking about the different lessons, I'm just thinking about what you said about the strength and the courage that it takes to do this. And I can imagine that some people don't necessarily feel like they have that, but we are always surprised about what we can do when we're given the opportunity to do it. So even if it feels hard, even if it feels scary, even if it feels like we're going to miss this, That's okay. It doesn't mean that it's the wrong choice. Briana Rogers: Yes, absolutely. Cassandra: So thank you. And thank you to our listeners for being part of our circle today. by sharing this episode, ⁓ you're helping us reach else who's carrying their loss in Let's keep growing this community together. Subscribe, follow, share, and know that your story matters. And just as a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes. ⁓ while we all are therapists, does not replace professional or mental health care because unfortunately we are not your therapists. ⁓ you feel like you'd like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near you. And Brianna, thank you again so much for being here today. This was really fantastic. Briana Rogers: Thank you. Thank you, Cassandra. This was wonderful. Thank you for having me. Cassandra: You're amazing. Briana Rogers: Yeah