Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / The Faith of Children

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The Faith of Children · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:03
  Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, welcome to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Tim Wright,
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  SPEAKER_01: along with Terry Summers and John D.
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  SPEAKER_01: Burgess,
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  SPEAKER_01: who's got John the Chili on his screen,
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  SPEAKER_01: either because he's eating chili,
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  SPEAKER_01: he's having a reaction to chili,
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  SPEAKER_01: or it's nice and cold up there in Colorado Springs today.
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  Nice and cold,
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  just to get your attention,
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  just to remind you that you're not in charge.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and what is the temperature today as of recording?
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  SPEAKER_01: 54.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: 54.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's about what it is here in Phoenix.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's lovely.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's lovely weather.
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  Especially when we know it's going to be 135 here in just a
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  couple of weeks.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we are doing Bible study together.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we thank you for listening in.
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  And if you're enjoying this program and you find it helpful for
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  your faith journey,
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  SPEAKER_01: please share it with others.
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  SPEAKER_01: We would appreciate that.
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  SPEAKER_01: The more listening in, the better.
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  SPEAKER_01: We are in the season of Lent,
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  and Lent is this time of preparation when we start focusing on
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  the story of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: the passion of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: the death,
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  SPEAKER_01: the resurrection of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: all the stories leading up to that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's just fortuitous,
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  SPEAKER_01: providential,
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  SPEAKER_01: that in our Bible study,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're in some of those passages right now,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Lenten stories leading up to the cross.
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  SPEAKER_01: And last week,
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  SPEAKER_01: and a couple weeks prior,
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  SPEAKER_01: we went up the mountain with Jesus to get ready for his crucifixion.
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  And then the disciples immediately have a discussion about who
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  is the greatest.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, our Bible study continues to pick up that theme and
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  SPEAKER_01: As we look at a story of Jesus and the children,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we did a coin toss today to see which of the two,
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  SPEAKER_01: John or Terry,
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  SPEAKER_01: would read the scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: And John called it in midair that Terry would read the scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I got it.
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  SPEAKER_01: I got it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's because both sides of the coin were heads.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're so darling.
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  SPEAKER_01: Would you please read for us?
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  SPEAKER_01: Mark chapter 10 verses 13 to 16.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place
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  his hands on them.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the disciples rebuked them.
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  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus saw this, he was indignant.
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  SPEAKER_00: He said to them,
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  let the little children come to me and do not hinder them for
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  the kingdom of God
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  SPEAKER_00: belongs to such as these.
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  SPEAKER_00: Truly,
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  SPEAKER_00: I tell you,
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  anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little
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  child will never enter it.
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  And he took the children in his arms,
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  placed his hands on them and blessed them.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is a short, but man, powerful story because there's so many pieces.
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  in this story that we can talk about today from faith to
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  marginalized people to
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  SPEAKER_01: even picking up on the theme from last week,
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  SPEAKER_01: greatness and what that all means.
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  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of good stuff in here.
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  This is one of those stories that it's kind of like the Sunday
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  school story.
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  SPEAKER_01: You see pictures of this with Jesus and the children around him.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it's more than just a sweet Sunday school story.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is that.
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  But there's some pretty radical stuff about the gospel
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  contained in this story as well.
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  So,
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  John,
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  since Terry read the scripture,
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  we're going to let you start it off.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think and what do you see in the story?
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: well,
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  SPEAKER_02: what I really like,
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  SPEAKER_02: first of all,
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  SPEAKER_02: is a reminder that Jesus is not a distant,
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  SPEAKER_02: ambiguous God.
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  SPEAKER_02: He oftentimes when he's blessing people, he's touching their head or he's
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  put it in something on their eyes or,
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  I mean,
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  it's very,
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  it's very personal,
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  somewhat intimate.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's this idea that,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  he sees through you and knows you in ways that you might not
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  know yourself.
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  And it's just,
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  he's just very much there and kind and loving and,
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  you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: sort of explosive in goodness.
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  And that's oftentimes,
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  for me,
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  it's important to remember that there's a touch involved.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's a personal connection there that is important.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a great insight.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I've read these stories before,
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  SPEAKER_01: but just to hear you say again,
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  how often Jesus was tactile in his approach to people and was
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  not afraid to touch them.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, what
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  SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially in our day,
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  SPEAKER_01: we need to talk about appropriate touch and permission and all that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But they were bringing their children to Jesus for precisely that,
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  SPEAKER_01: for the rabbi to bless them with God's blessing.
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  And Jesus didn't shy away from even touching those considered
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  to be untouchable.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was his way of bringing literally the touch of God,
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  SPEAKER_01: the touch of grace to people's lives.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a great insight.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  And just how,
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  uh,
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  how many of these parents had been,
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  had,
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  had brought their children.
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  Certainly I have brought my children to the pastor of my church
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  for a blessing.
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  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then that's,
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  there's something important going on there when parents do that
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  and how often these
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  SPEAKER_02: parents had brought their children to a rabbi for a blessing.
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  SPEAKER_02: And there was a,
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  some sort of rebuke or maybe impatient response that was maybe
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  common at that time.
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  SPEAKER_02: Um, that was,
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  And really one of the points of the story was that's not the
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  approach that Jesus took.
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  SPEAKER_02: And how welcome and huge that could be for a parent.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  So you just stimulated an interesting thought that the
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  disciples tried to turn the parents away.
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  You know,
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  normally we think that these disciples are thinking,
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  okay,
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  look,
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  Jesus is really busy.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's tired.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's talking weird.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about dying.
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  SPEAKER_01: We need to protect him.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's true.
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  SPEAKER_01: But you raised the point.
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  SPEAKER_01: Was this maybe practice from other rabbis?
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  Is it possible that other rabbis stood at a distance from
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  children because children
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  SPEAKER_01: were not considered to be of the same worth and value,
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  SPEAKER_01: say,
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  SPEAKER_01: of adults,
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  SPEAKER_01: particularly adult men?
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  Could it be that this was practice that the disciples had seen
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  before with other rabbis?
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  SPEAKER_01: Are rabbis too important for you to be blessing children?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a really interesting idea, really interesting concept.
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  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
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  raises all sorts of questions about churches and their
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  relationship with children
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  SPEAKER_01: and how welcoming are we to families and children and so on and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's great insight.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Terry.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: How about you?
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  SPEAKER_01: You've got a lot to top there.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's some good stuff there.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, I have a very warm reaction to it and even emotional.
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  And I know I'm always going to be one that leans that way a
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  little bit,
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  but
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  SPEAKER_00: in the area of worth and value,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like you were just saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's a reminder to me to,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: children,
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  SPEAKER_00: they,
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  SPEAKER_00: what do they say that we're kind of all of who we're going to be or,
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  SPEAKER_00: or in essence,
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  SPEAKER_00: like when we're children,
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  SPEAKER_00: like there's an age,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: do you know what I'm talking about?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like there's an age that we, you don't know what I'm saying, John?
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I want you to think.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: By the time your blah, blah, blah age is what I'm saying.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I might,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that age is,
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  SPEAKER_00: but essentially that's my essence,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that I arrived at my humanness of who I am now as a child.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like by reminding myself of this,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I know there's a lot more to it,
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  SPEAKER_00: but how I reacted today was reminding myself how he receives me.
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  SPEAKER_00: in that way.
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  You know,
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  that it's the all of me,
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  even as hearkens back to the earliest days of me.
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  And that purity and that safety and the warmth and all of that
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  speaks to me as I
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  SPEAKER_00: read this passage.
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  And like I said,
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  I know there's a lot more tethered to it,
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  but...
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  That's great.
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  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that there is something...
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  SPEAKER_01: there is something for us,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: reading 2000 years later,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially in a culture that for the most part does value children.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: a culture that sometimes has,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  almost poured ourselves into our children to the point where we
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  don't even allow
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  SPEAKER_01: them to be children anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: We sort of, you know, over by for them, we over protect them.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: But because we just have such a high value for children,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's easy then to see this story through that lens and say,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: what was up with the disciples?
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  But there is something really significant happening here
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  theologically about faith,
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  SPEAKER_01: about grace,
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  SPEAKER_01: about the priorities of the kingdom that we could miss in
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  SPEAKER_01: because we tend to be so kid centric.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that's a bad thing that we're kids.
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  I'm saying we're just in a very different world than the world
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  that Jesus was in.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and Jesus uses this moment to say something about what God is like.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and that's where I think the power of the story lies.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  So a couple of things that stand out to me,
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  and we'll dig deeper into these.
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  SPEAKER_01: The one thing where,
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  SPEAKER_01: as Terry was reading it,
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  SPEAKER_01: was we get this,
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  SPEAKER_01: when Jesus saw it was happening,
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  SPEAKER_01: my translation said he was angry,
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  SPEAKER_01: angry with his disciples.
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  SPEAKER_00: Remind me what you're reading from just so I can be.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this one is the, I'm looking at the New Living translation.
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  SPEAKER_00: New Living, okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what was the word yours used?
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  SPEAKER_00: Mine was indignant, I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's what mine says.
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  SPEAKER_01: New Revised Standard says that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And just to remind ourselves again, A, Jesus did get angry.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he gets angry many times in the Gospels.
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  But it's always really important to remind ourselves what it is
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  that angers Jesus.
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  And what it is that angers Jesus is injustice and or when
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  people are being treated
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  SPEAKER_01: less than humanly.
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  So here you have an example of children who are not viewed as
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  having the same sort
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  SPEAKER_01: of value that would be worthy of Jesus' time.
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  We have the story of Jesus angry at the leprosy that the man
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  had experienced
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  SPEAKER_01: because of the way that leprosy dehumanizes people and relationships.
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  We see Jesus getting angry with the religious leaders because
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  they would put laws
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  SPEAKER_01: and rules ahead of the humanity of people.
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  We will see Jesus get angry when he goes into the temple
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  because rather than making
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  it a place for prayer and for people to come and engage with
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  God and be encountered
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  SPEAKER_01: by God,
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  SPEAKER_01: it becomes this marketplace of rules and regulations.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so over and over again,
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  SPEAKER_01: when Jesus gets angry,
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  it's about things that rob people of their humanity and or keep
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  them from receiving
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  SPEAKER_01: God's blessing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when you look at the Old Testament,
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  you see the same pattern where what really angers God with the
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  people of Israel is
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  SPEAKER_01: when they don't care for the widow and the orphan,
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  SPEAKER_01: when they don't feed the hungry,
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  SPEAKER_01: when they don't welcome the stranger.
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  And it's good just to step back a little bit and think about
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  the things that tend
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  SPEAKER_01: to make Christians angry,
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  SPEAKER_01: at least the things we hear about,
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  SPEAKER_01: and say,
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  SPEAKER_01: does that line up with what Jesus was angry about?
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  Because a lot of times we're angry about things that Jesus was
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  never angry about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  And a lot of times the things that we're angry about actually
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  would make Jesus
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  angry because what we're angry about ends up dehumanizing
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  people or devaluing them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we get angry about...
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  maybe the way that people vote or we get angry about sexual
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  preferences or whatever
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  SPEAKER_01: it might be.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in our anger, what we try to do is control who's in and who's out.
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  And Jesus,
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  picking up on the story of the Old Testament,
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  constantly turns things upside down.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so for Jesus, it's the weak who have priority.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's the hungry.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's the lost.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's children who take center stage and
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that God doesn't care about the powerful,
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  SPEAKER_01: but he wants to say something significant about the kingdom of heaven.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's for the least of these, which in the end includes all of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: But not everybody always lives like that.
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  It's easy for us to sort of make our own list of who's the
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  least of these,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then we don't always treat them the way Jesus does.
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  But it's good just to step back and say,
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  what is it that angers Jesus in this story?
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's that they are not treating these children as valuable,
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  SPEAKER_01: beloved members of God's kingdom.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that really gets under his skin.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: Tim,
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  SPEAKER_02: there's really nobody,
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  there's no class of person that was successfully kept or
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  divided from Jesus
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  SPEAKER_02: throughout his life here.
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  What I mean is,
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  I mean,
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  he was approached by and approached everybody from all kinds of places.
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  No matter where you were in the rack and stack of culture at
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  that time,
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  he was there.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I always focus on that, turning the tables at the temple.
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  SPEAKER_02: And here, it was really like, don't get between me and my people.
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  SPEAKER_02: And my people are children.
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  And my people are the oppressed and the people that are thrown
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  aside by culture.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And John and I have had some good conversations about this in the past.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we won't spend a lot of time here.
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  SPEAKER_01: But there are times...
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  SPEAKER_01: We all know that God loves everybody.
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  But there are times in Scripture and even in the 21st century
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  when we put an extra
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  SPEAKER_01: emphasis on those who God loves,
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  which always tends to be the weak and the outcast because we
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  don't really see them
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  SPEAKER_01: as equals.
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  SPEAKER_01: it's easy to overlook that homeless person.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to overlook the poor and the oppressed.
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  It's easy to make comments about people who are on welfare or
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  people who are on food stamps.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to denigrate people whose skin color is different than ours.
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  SPEAKER_01: And even though we know God loves everybody,
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  SPEAKER_01: even in scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are times when God has to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I love these people.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean he doesn't love everybody else,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I love these people just because I want you to hear,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love these people too.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we don't hear that.
• 16:51
  And in this case,
• 16:51
  what he's saying is,
• 16:53
  Jesus is saying,
• 16:54
  yeah,
• 16:54
  God loves children too.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And they have just as much access to me.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that God doesn't love adults,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: but he has to say,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: these are the people we ignore.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: These are the people that we tend to devalue.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to lift them up and say, yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like the Spirit of the Lord has come upon me.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: He's anointed me to bring good news to the poor.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's called me to set the captives free.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm neither captive nor poor.
• 17:18
  That doesn't mean Jesus didn't come for me,
• 17:20
  but he has to speak up for those who are voiceless.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:26
  And that's what we see even in culture today when we have
• 17:28
  certain groups and we
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: might say,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: God loves them too.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, but God loves everybody.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:35
  But these are the people who don't know that God loves them
• 17:37
  because we don't really
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: love them the way that we should.
• 17:40
  And this is one example of Jesus having to specifically call
• 17:44
  out a group of people
• 17:45
  he loves because people have a hard time understanding that God
• 17:48
  loves them too.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: He's making a point here in that I do really do love everybody,
• 17:54
  even if I love these folks that some people don't love or the
• 17:57
  culture doesn't care about.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: And this one's easy for us to understand, right?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is children.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And today...
• 18:04
  You know,
• 18:04
  in this year,
• 18:05
  in this place in the West,
• 18:07
  we placed great value on children.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: But at the time, there was something less than great value.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's probably its own podcast.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: But another great topic for its own podcast,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Tim,
• 18:17
  would be what is Christianity's place in history in elevating
• 18:23
  children to the
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: status that they have today?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of history there that's mostly positive.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for example, take the education movement.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 18:37
  that was really inspired by Christianity and the value of
• 18:43
  everybody having an
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: opportunity to learn.
• 18:44
  So the other thing I want to pick up,
• 18:47
  you know,
• 18:47
  again,
• 18:48
  we're bringing up great stuff.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why you do podcasts is so that you can do more podcasts.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we're setting ourselves up for some job security.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple of things to notice here, and then we can talk about it.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the theology,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: part of the theology is Jesus standing up for the voiceless,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: which would be the children.
• 19:08
  But what's interesting here,
• 19:10
  one day some parents brought their children to Jesus.
• 19:13
  And here the word,
• 19:14
  if I'm remembering my Greek well,
• 19:18
  it's not just children.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: These are like babies.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: These are kids who need to be carried to Jesus.
• 19:30
  And so understanding that word is going to take you to some
• 19:34
  very interesting
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: theology when you move to the next verse.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let the children come to me.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Don't stop them.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: The kingdom of heaven belongs to those who are like these children.
• 19:50
  I tell you,
• 19:51
  anyone who doesn't receive the kingdom of God like a baby will
• 19:55
  never enter it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So let me read that again.
• 20:01
  Anyone who doesn't receive the kingdom of God like a baby,
• 20:05
  an infant,
• 20:08
  will never enter it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 20:12
  for those who have a strong sense that faith is first and
• 20:17
  foremost a decision we
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: make based on what we understand about God,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: this causes a problem.
• 20:25
  Because infants do not have the capacity to make any kind of
• 20:30
  rational decision
• 20:32
  about anything except how to cry when they're hungry and eat
• 20:36
  when they're hungry
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: and poop their pants.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: In the history of Christianity,
• 20:46
  it's really been since the Enlightenment when we have looked at
• 20:49
  faith as first and
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: foremost assenting to certain faith beliefs.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: That faith is something rational.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's what we believe.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus here is saying something radically different about faith.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: That faith is not first and foremost our action.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you think of a baby,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: and if the baby has faith at all,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: that faith is defined in terms of helplessness.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: That baby is completely dependent on mom and or dad for all of life.
• 21:33
  You stick that baby in a corner and you don't care for it,
• 21:36
  that baby's going to die.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so in this sense,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: it's the parent's love and faithfulness that carries that child,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: that nourishes that child,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: that lives in relationship with that child,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: that initiates care and love for that child.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so the faith building between mom and child,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: dad and child,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: isn't initiated by the baby,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: it's initiated by the parents.
• 22:13
  And it's the parents caring for and loving that child that then
• 22:16
  builds faith and
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: trust in the child.
• 22:21
  Well,
• 22:22
  that kind of comes to the question that I had when you were
• 22:26
  clarifying infants.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus says,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: let the children come to me,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: if they're only able to come by being carried,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: that has to tether into who's carrying them,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Am I tracking you?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, in part, yes.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's...
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm...
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: When he's saying,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: let the children come to me,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: he is essentially...
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Another way of saying it is,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: I welcome children.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Children are a part of my family.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: They are a part of my kingdom.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And in this case,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: he's saying,
• 23:06
  let the children come to me because parents are bringing the
• 23:09
  children and they're
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: trying to stop them.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and so maybe another way of saying it is do not in any way,
• 23:16
  shape or form build any kind of barriers that keep children
• 23:20
  away from my grace.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's the broad stroke.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was just getting a little too literal,
• 23:25
  but then but I still feel like I'm in my own Terry Summers mind
• 23:30
  and making that
• 23:31
  connection about the what you just got done saying about
• 23:35
  parents to child.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Metaphorically speaking, you know what I'm saying?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like they have,
• 23:41
  that's the only way that a baby is going to get to literally go
• 23:45
  be blessed by Jesus
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: is if a parent takes them there.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or right.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or yes.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the deeper point is for Jesus,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: anyone who doesn't receive the kingdom of God,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: like a child.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: how does a child,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: even let's take a child,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: let's take a two or three-year-old child,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: if infant is a hard concept for people.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: But still, how does an infant, how does a young child receive anything?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: They don't ask questions.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have the mental capacity to make decisions about things.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Receive, by the way, is like a passive word.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not reaching out and grabbing something.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:34
  It's something that's being placed into your hands or into your
• 24:37
  soul or into your heart.
• 24:40
  And Jesus is saying something here about faith,
• 24:43
  that faith isn't our work.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Faith isn't our decision.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Faith is God's decision toward us.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Faith is God coming to us and initiating relationship.
• 24:56
  And then just as my children grew in relationship with me and
• 25:01
  knew that I was dad
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I was going to care for them.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I grow my relationship with Jesus,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: but Jesus is the one who initiates the relationship,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: not the baby.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm with you.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:13
  So,
• 25:14
  so just to round that out a little bit,
• 25:16
  Tim,
• 25:17
  you're saying that on the deep,
• 25:20
  uh,
• 25:21
  Deep diving in your own works podcast,
• 25:26
  as opposed to the deep grace diving podcast.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:29
  The little child is incapable of showing the right level of
• 25:37
  faith or the right
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: actions or saying the right words or just incapable.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: And yet Jesus comes to them to bless them.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's right.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus is coming to them.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I went on the same page as you.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just was a little too maybe avant-garde with the whole thing.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I understood what you were saying.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:58
  You've got the context of the story,
• 26:01
  which is parents bringing their kids,
• 26:03
  disciples saying no.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus said, wait a minute, let them in.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let them keep coming.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: But then he's something.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing Jesus never says here is,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: unless you accept,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: receive the kingdom of God like an adult.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's always the child.
• 26:20
  It's the infant,
• 26:21
  which is saying something significant about the work that Jesus does.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think about any relationship at all,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: you don't just see someone standing over in a corner and say,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to trust my life to that person.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: That person is going to come over.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to get to know that person.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: That person is going to win you over.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way every relationship works.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: You don't look at somebody standing in the corner and say,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to fall in love with that person.
• 26:51
  That person comes over,
• 26:52
  you meet that person,
• 26:54
  and that person births love in you.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Every relationship works like that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And yet,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: for some reason,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: we've sort of said that to be a Christian,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: you have to believe certain things and make certain decisions.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's the case, then it's always up to me.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have to save myself.
• 27:13
  And when do I know if I've made the right decision or believed
• 27:16
  the right things?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than just leaning back into the arms of Jesus and saying,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: this is your deal.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to follow you.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you that you love me, that you accept me.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And now I want to live in that grace and grow to know you as best I can.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's podcast gold.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Tim,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how you're going to do this in two and a half minutes,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: but in other podcasts,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: and we'll do this again in another podcast,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: we have talked about the value of using critical thinking.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that God doesn't say to park your brain and your common sense.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't say that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think some people,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: when they read this,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: they think what this is saying is,
• 28:08
  I just need to sort of accept without question and through this
• 28:15
  sort of display of
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: subjective faith,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: just do what it says.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not allowed to kind of question and dive in and wrestle with things.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: So how do I rectify that?
• 28:34
  It helps for us to look at Jesus and living in relationship
• 28:39
  with Jesus or following Jesus.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus is the one who initiates the relationship.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is the one who calls me.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we may hear that call at different times in our lives.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've heard that call all my life.
• 28:55
  Some people hear the call when they're adults,
• 28:57
  but it's Jesus who births faith in us.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: But as is true with any good relationship,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: as a follower of Jesus,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want to get to know as much of Jesus as I possibly can.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where critical thinking comes in.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: There are really good things out there about Jesus,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: and then there are really just nutty things out there about Jesus.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if I want to know who Jesus is,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: if I want to follow Jesus,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: then that means that I want to take the time to do what we're doing now,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: study Scripture,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: study who Jesus is.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: When Jan and I got married, I didn't check my brain at the door.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I have lived in relationship with her for 45 years as husband and wife,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: and we've known each other for 50 years.
• 29:47
  I want to learn as much as I possibly can about her so that I
• 29:51
  can live in a healthy
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: relationship with her.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: a relationship of give and take.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't guess.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't make guesses.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not just along for the ride.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be an active part of the relationship.
• 30:07
  And the interesting thing is who we are as human beings today
• 30:14
  is very different
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: than when we met back in 1975.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a constant learning and growing in our relationship together.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: what we want to be careful of is how grace works,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: which is all God's work,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: and then living in that grace,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: which has nothing to do with my salvation,
• 30:40
  but it has everything to do with my relationship with Jesus and
• 30:43
  getting to know
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus and living the life that Jesus has for me.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that comes through critical thinking.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if Jesus...
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 30:55
  there are certain wings of Christianity where Jesus is pretty
• 30:59
  critical and condemning.
• 31:01
  Well,
• 31:02
  maybe we need to step back and say,
• 31:03
  well,
• 31:04
  is that really who Jesus is?
• 31:08
  So I think the critical thinking comes in in terms of how I
• 31:12
  grow as a follower of Jesus.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not what saves me.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Theology doesn't save us.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus saves us.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding of Jesus doesn't save me.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus saves me.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Which is good news for me.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, for all of us.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, any thoughts before we go?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of got off on tangents with the children.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus loves children, by the way.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have anything.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are super smart.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's very nice of you, Terry.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just to tie it into...
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: a couple of the past podcasts where we were talking about greatness.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got these disciples arguing who's the greatest.
• 32:02
  And then Jesus said,
• 32:03
  by the way,
• 32:06
  it's the attitude of a child that I'm looking for.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: This sense of helplessness, this sense of dependence.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, children, as they grow, are ferocious learners.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: They just...
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Children all naturally want to explore their world.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: They want to explore life.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: They want to explore boundaries.
• 32:30
  And they do that within the context of parents who love them
• 32:34
  and value them,
• 32:35
  hopefully.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how our relationship with Jesus works.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: He wants us to explore,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: and sometimes we'll press boundaries,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: but we're never beyond his love for us,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: and we grow in that.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: So greatness is not found in power.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Greatness is found...
• 32:54
  and surrender to the one who loves us is part of what this
• 32:57
  story would say.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else before we go?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's the perfect ending.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: All righty.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to be back next time.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to continue to make our journey to the cross with Jesus.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Please tell your friends about it.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: The Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright, Terry Summers, and John Burgess.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 33:24
  Thank you.