Latest / Follow the Leighder / Child Care Is an Economic Security Issue | Amy K. Matsui, NWLC
Transcript
- Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder... I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And joining me today, folks, this is a really, really exciting episode. I love getting w women experts in their field, especially when that field is on women. Thank you, Amy Matsui, for joining us. She's joining us from Maryland. Welcome to the studio. Amy K Matsui: Thank you so much for having me, Leigh. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Folks, check out this resume. Amy K. Matsui is the Vice President for Child Care and Ec Income Security at the National Women's Law Center. She works on a broad range of economic issues affecting low and moderate income women and families with special emphasis on child care and tax policies. Her work comprises policy analysis, state and federal advocacy, and public education and outreach. She has Published multiple times, cited her expertise is is very reputable and credible. And I am so excited to elevate you today, Amy. Talk to us about how you came into working for National Women's Law Center and specifically on child care and income security. Amy K Matsui: Yeah, so I've always kind of had an interest in women's issues. I started my career right out of college. I was a I was an elementary school teacher. And that kind of broadened my thinking a little bit to look at really what families need to succeed. And I try and always kind of bring a teacher's lens to it, right? What do you what kind of structure and framework are you providing for kids so that when they come in to learn every day, they are set up to do their absolute best. And if we broaden that out to think about Their families, a lot of the times the things that will help families succeed are really supports for women. Since I've been doing this work, I've been with the Law Center for almost 25 years at this point. Over and over again, it really is about giving families the resources they need so they can meet the basics, put a roof over their head, food on the table, and then have the supports that they that women need to be able to go to work and support their families. And that in a nutshell is childcare. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And when you think about, you know, you simply can't learn on an empty stomach. You can't learn if you are scared to go home and do your homework, right? You're not gonna do the homework. It there's so many elements, things about I mean, hygiene. Excuse me, just being able to to have a comfortable place to sleep at night, quiet. at night, we think about whether that's quite in the home, environmental noise, industrial noise. I it you're absolutely right. You you it starts small and then suddenly you're thinking about everything to just get a student from kindergarten to graduation. Amy K Matsui: You're absolutely right. You you can start small and then suddenly you're thinking about everything to just get a student from kindergarten to graduation. If you also like if you flip it around a little bit and think about, you know, someone who's going to work, say it's a mom, if they're worried about if their child is safe, if they're healthy, if they're if they are being nurtured, they also can't perform at work. So really these are all pieces of the supports and policies that people need for their well-being. It helps employers, it helps our education and the future workforce. It also supports our whole economy. So if you kind of telescope out, it really is if people have what they need to thrive, then that really supports families and communities and workforces in the whole economy. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. I live in rural Montana, or I guess Montana's the whole state is rural, but that is one of the things we talk about a lot is you know, how can our communities support one another? And childcare is one of the driving forces of that. I mean, not just because of how much it would help businesses i and and the economy to have imp you know a like you said, for women to be able, particularly women to be able to drop their kids off and go perform work and and generate income, drive their career purpose, community. but also like meeting other people in the same life phases through these childcare and through these communities, that I think is is there's a lot that y you you're pointing out. There's ritual, community. There's there's so much more and and of course the labor. It's Widespread. Amy K Matsui: Yeah, I think, you know, what is really challenging for families right now is almost every aspect of finding the child care that, you know, you feel good, meets your values, fits your schedule, and is close to you. It's both access and affordability. So for a lot of people, there just aren't that many options close to where they live or close to where they work. I'm sure this is something that you're seeing in rural communities. and really people have lots of different ways that they want their families to be cared for. Every family has their own preferences and values. So just having options, but knowing that you know, childcare in a center, the average cost in this country right now, in almost every state, it exceeds in state. College tuition. We did a study a couple of years ago that found that for a family to kind of to manage comfortably to pay for infant childcare, they would have to make north of $180,000. So it really is out of reach for most families. Most working families in this country are not able to find the child care that they want and the child care that they can afford. It's just not feasible for them. It's a huge cost for families right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely. there have been so many shifts nationwide. what are what are your some of the biggest concerns too with women in the workforce? What is the data? What are we seeing? And are I know that COVID impacted Are we recovering or is it getting worse? What is that? Amy K Matsui: So that's a really good question. I mean, we did see a huge drop in women in the labor force during COVID, and we've seen kind of an uneven recovery. And even now, when more women are getting back in the workforce, there's two things I think to keep an eye on. One of them is women who are long-term unemployed. So they kind of have been looking for a long time, and some of them have just kind of given up and dropped out of the workforce. And then the other thing that we're seeing is that women of color and recently we've looked really hard because black women, their unemployment is much higher than other women. So it's an uneven recovery. There are a lot of factors that are making it challenging for women to be in the workforce and stay in the workforce. One of those is certainly childcare. But there also have been, I think, a lot of kind of Cultural crosswinds over from this administration that have put a lot of pressure on women in the workforce. We have seen kind of a push that really questions women's credentials and expertise. You know, if you think about, you know, every time a female journalist gets her credentials questioned, everyone from you know economists on the Fed to People who were in like the Smithsonian institution, there's really been kind of a questioning, also in the military, obviously, a questioning of whether women are qualified for leadership positions. And that's a really troubling, a really troubling trend when that's coupled with, you know. reducing protections for people in the workforce against harassment or sex discrimination. These are things that you know I think the the EEOC has been backsliding on. It really is making it harder for a lot of different reasons for women to be in the workforce. And then we've also seen a lot of disruptions for childcare funding, Head Start funding, other public benefits that really make it hard for people who are working hard to feed their families to make ends meet. Leigh/@followtheleighder: when you talk about Amy K Matsui: So when you talk about Leigh/@followtheleighder: women, you know, leaving the workforce, feeling pressure to to work leave the workforce, what happens to these these women? Are they going more on social programs? Are they finding wealthy men? What what does it look like? That always seems to be my question. I mean, is what does it look like when women leave the workforce? What do what happens to them? Amy K Matsui: So right now, especially for women with low incomes, so if you think about like women who are, you know, providing child care or health care or working in restaurants or retail, things like that, these are jobs that, you know, are really squeezing people's budgets. It's almost as though these kind of essential workers who keep the whole economy going, we talked about that during the pandemic, that these were essential workers, they're getting squeezed right now. in part because, you know, some benefits like nutrition assistance or Medicaid or you know what we would call welfare or TANF, those benefits are getting cut back and even more kind of requirements are being put on them. So in the, for example, in the the big reconciliation bill, what is called the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, but we like to call it HR1 because it's really not beautiful. Benefits like SNAP and Medicaid have quote unquote work requirements on them. So if people don't work a certain number of hours on a regular basis, they're going to lose those benefits. And people may not make those hours for a whole bunch of different reasons. They may be working part-time, they may have fluctuating schedules, or they may lose a job temporarily. And it's almost like kicking someone when they're down, when they're really struggling to scrape together those hours to work. Then take away their food assistance or their health care, that's almost making it even harder for them to have a stable family and meet the basics. You don't incentivize somebody to do to work more, especially in this economy when people are sending out so many resumes and so many applications and not getting takeup. Taking food away from that person who's sending in all those applications is not gonna incentivize them to to do that more than they already are. It's just kicking them when they're down. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it is. I mean, it's i i i i i i it kicking them when they're down, deincentivizing. I you I I'm so glad you brought this up years ago. I helped us start a nonprofit in right outside of Boulder, Colorado. And it was a community center, a day center for people who were rec rec recovering. and we kept it general. You're recovering from something, but it was designed for those like early days. You just got out of rehab, just got out of jail, you're in a flux type space in your life and you and you need and all the time we were working with people that are in these liminal tr you know spaces and it was so hard because maybe they had the job or maybe maybe they could afford the car. There was just or they just the decisions they had to make because if they made too much, they would lose something very critical. And and it just it it's not a system that is set up for anyone to succeed. I and I don't really know what this system is for it it it just feels like it it's a lot of clutching maybe, a as it stands in a lot of ways is what I mean. Amy K Matsui: It's really hard right now. You know, people are seeing the cost of living just go through the roof. They can't afford child care, housing is super expensive, gas has gone through the roof, groceries have gone through the roof. And you know, they're what you're describing is really a spiral or like a snowballing effect. So, you know, just if someone has like a little what Seems like a little economic crisis, their car breaks down, they miss rent, and they get evicted. You're gonna see a whole cascade of effects from there. If you don't have a car, you might not be able to get to your job, you lose your job, and then you're continuing to snowball and spiral, and you just can't catch up, you can't get ahead. And I think, you know, one of the things that families want and deserve across the country is just to have kind of that sense of stability and dignity and that you can you can provide for yourself and your family and that you are making progress and can kind of access opportunity. You want people to feel like they can save for the future or a down payment or for education. And when every single penny is going towards meeting that absolute Absolute rock bottom basics, people aren't able to kind of have that stability and dignity. One of my colleagues just looked at some data over the past couple of decades, and they're seeing that for you know for families with low incomes, so kind of at the bottom chunk of incomes in this in this country. Over time families are spending more and more and almost all of their incomes are going towards the absolute basics. We're not talking about, you know, You know, we're talking about having to think, can you afford a uniform for sports for your kids? Can you afford like an extra pair of shoes? Those are the kinds of like those are looking like luxuries for a lot of families these days because they are really just just trying to make the basics. And what does that Leigh/@followtheleighder: What does that look like too? Cause I'm also seeing here in Montana that our our working class women, that is dwindling. The their feel like what was maybe a little bit softer, a little bit more cushion or more comfortable ten years ago. The middle class, if you want to describe the ones who had maybe a little extra to spare either time, material goods, et cetera, they also are not able to volunteer the same amount or don donate the same. And I was watching this cascade effect of like all of it, like a a big shrinking almost, a thinning. And and and just women here because they had A, now were on the edge of their own economic crisis at home, like they needed to to sh you know, gather and and be more diligent at home with their own budget. But Also like this sense of purpose and community. Like when everyone starts to retreat into a lack of abundance or giving or community, there's it it the scarcity mindset seems to very much exacerbate. And I know for so many of us we're we're dealing with that scarcity mindset. And I'm curious, if I don't know if you haven't the the numbers on hand and I don't mean to to put you into a thing, but what what are the percentage? What what is that? What does the data say about are more women? How do I want to say that? Are women getting poorer? I guess is is what I'm saying is and and what what official numbers do we have to support or not support that here in the United States? Amy K Matsui: So, you know, when we look at women's incomes, it's so I'm just gonna say a little bit off the cuff here, and that is that like it's hard to isolate women out of their families, right? So it's a little Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. Amy K Matsui: hard to track their incomes. But what I can say is that, you know, some of what we consider the basics or the essentials are really s are really challenging for families pretty far up the income scale to meet. So middle class families. Are also struggling to pay for child care. If you have an older family member or a disabled family member care for those like long-term care services Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Amy K Matsui: for those other family members, you know, we've seen probably you've seen in the press, it is draining bank accounts, it is taking people's retirement savings away because they don't realize how expensive it is. There's really not A way to offset those costs. And it really does kind of put, you know, if that caregiving pressure and having to kind of fill those gaps is another thing that people far up the income scale, what we would consider middle-class families or even upper middle class, are struggling to kind of make sure that their families have what they need. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Thank you for that. I Amy K Matsui: Thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I know it's it's that's such a large question, but I I've just been really sitting with this like the the cascading effect when women are either disconnected from income. I also see it one thing that came to me whene I've been able to learn out here in Montana working with a lot of indigenous women is that connection with the land, the ability to feed themselves. amidst pro amidst poverty and hearing some of their stories and this just this real anger of looking around at at food deserts, people or places where women and families cannot get food, but Walmarts exist. And and we have these like there's just this grotesque abundance over here, but just complete depletion and and and like real poverty and and and and fear. What Can Americans looking at some of the policies of the last two years, are there certain policies that have been more harmful than others? And can you speak to those? Amy K Matsui: Yeah, I mean, we definitely have looked at the cuts that were in that big tax tax cut bill last year. So, you know, we know that the cuts to nutrition assistance, what used to be called food stamps, the supplemental nutrition assistance program or SNAP, there's gonna be over a hundred and eighty billion dollars cut from that program over ten years. And we know that the cuts to, you know, the To Medicaid, they took away the enhanced premium tax credits for folks who are on the ACA and made other cuts to health care. And so we know that over the next 10 years we're gonna see almost 10 million people who are losing health insurance coverage by 2034. So it's really hard to overstate the Impact of those. If you think about like all of the different ways that that impacts families and communities, you know, you have something like Medicaid, which helps pay for those kind of long term care services for older or disabled people, and then also people who are caregivers because they make such low incomes, they rely on that for their own families to get health care and food. So it really is like taking the almost like the Ecosystem apart. It's like taking this infrastructure and these supports, and you how can the system keep going without those essentials? That is a real question. I also think, tie kind of to a point that you made earlier: what are we seeing? Some of the data sets that the government kept that helped us track. People who are food insecure, or kind of how people are faring, what their well-being is or their health, maternal health data, some of those data sources are disappearing. And in part, that's because some of the agencies have said this is kind of illegal DEI. If we're looking at specifically how women are doing, or how are black or Hispanic kids doing. And so some of that data is disappearing, and it's almost like Like the problem is getting pushed underground or invisible, we're losing sight of how much people might be harmed by some of these cuts and You can't fix what you can't see. And so that's also that's not I would say as problematic as like losing Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. No. Amy K Matsui: nutrition assistance or healthcare, but losing a sense of the scope and what is happening across the country is also really a problem for people to be able to take action. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm so glad you brought up reporting and and data sources because my followers know as I've been researching for different ways of Christianity, different theologies, Christian nationalism, and US military chaplaincy is the official thing. But as I'm been investigating this, it's getting harder and harder for me to find data on people within the military. And and that data is so It is scary. It you start thinking, I mean, it is truly who holds the pen, who holds the power, because if no one's writing about or if you can't get those that data because no one's documenting it, y you're not you're not a you're not gonna be part of the story. And and to your point, it just doesn't it just doesn't make sense, right? Like my background is in theology and it makes no sense to me why you wouldn't uplift the women, the children, and the trees. Like in just like the most obvious of ways. And and this lack of investment, particularly in healthcare, kicking people off their health insurance, like that's not not only is it unethical for human, but I mean, like you said, the ecosystem. I want healthy people in my community. And it is a I I It just sounds so blatantly obvious, like to look at some of the the people that are calling the shots and pulling the strings and say, like, why would you want low income or poor sick people in your commun? Like, why would you why because that's what you're going to like? It just it it's it doesn't even make sense for for the logic that I see often. And I'm so glad you said that because I was like, right, it doesn't make sense. so sorry. I went on a little tangent there, okay But I am am curious, can you tell me are there certain regions or certain parts of the country that are getting hurt or hit harder than others? Amy K Matsui: So this is a part kind of of the story that we're right now. So the census just put out kind of their poverty data earlier in September, and some of the data has been indefinitely delayed. And so getting a really up-to-date picture on how certain states are doing right now is a little hard to say. We're kind of watching and waiting for this data to come out, specifically around poverty and health insurance and things like that. But so that's something that we're we're trying to track and keep a close eye on. But the the s the slow rel the slow roll of the data is making that challenging right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Absolutely. I would I would be really curious to see like these pockets, quote unquote, of inspiration that we might see out of Seattle, out of Portland. I w just that is kind of I don't know, the special cool even New York with Mamdani like these places that are pushing forward with with things that are that are that are sensible and and make sense for the for the communities. for these upcoming midterms, what are some things that you really, again, not pushing you into to partisan, but what are some some policies or just some major concerns that we should be watching that are really in relation to low income women? Amy K Matsui: That's great question. I mean, I think you know, we've talked a lot about the bill that came out last year, HR1 or the OBEA, some people call it. And we're seeing kind of these slow-rolling impacts because some of the policies don't take effect right away, but we know they're coming. And so I think kind of seeing that, you know, what people warned might have. Is actually happening. People are losing their nutrition assistance, and food banks are also strapped and they can't make up the difference. People are losing their health care and they aren't able to pay for it, they're just doing without. Reports in the news about how people are struggling to afford the basics. That is really what we should be keeping an eye on. You know, we kind of perked up our ears last you know year when you know President Trump said, well, we can't afford to pay for daycare or health care. That should be paid for by the states because we are in a war. And the fact is that you know the Some states, as you mentioned, are really stepping up as much as they can, but one of the things we have government for is to kind of look out for our shared benefits, right? The things that the government is best situated to provide because all of the us need it and it makes all of us stronger across the country. So thinking about our making sure that people can afford the basics and can, you know, live with dignity with the hope of accessing opportunity. That's really fundamental, I think, to what people across the country are seeing right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely. There is one piece that I would like to ask you about, and it is the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025. They're saving America by saving the family. And I'm really interested about this this narrative about single mothers, single working mothers, educated single mothers. Talk to us about what the impact of this bill could be and and why we should pay attention. Not this bill, but this p is it a p I wait would you Yeah, report. Yeah. Thank you. Amy K Matsui: It's a report. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up. You know, the the Heritage Foundation has been around for a long time. But they really do have the year of this administration. So they were the architects of Project 2025, which came out before this administration came into power. And it really isn't shocking how many of the policies in Project 2025 got adopted in one form or another by the Trump administration. And the report that you mentioned, which is called, as you noted, Saving America by Saving the Family, really does try to elevate kind of one kind of family, a married heterosexual couple. With children above kind of all the different ways that families across the country find themselves taking, whether it's you know, someone who's gotten divorced or gotten widowed or is doing their best, grandparents raising grandchildren. So the the kind of the the variety of circumstances in which families find themselves aren't really found in this report. They really wanna kind of restructure government benefits. To be supporting these two-parent married couples with children. So a lot of the policies in this most recent report, which came out in January, are about kind of diverting government resources, but also really blaming kind of women's educational attainment, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. Amy K Matsui: finding kind of better jobs, professional jobs in the workplace. And you know, a lot of people have decided like or have kind of thought for themselves, you know, before I get married, before I have children, I want to be established, maybe I want to buy a house, maybe I want to have a good job. But the This report's kind of turning that on its head and saying, so if we want to have more children born to couples in this country, married couples, we should encourage people to get married much younger, maybe not finish college or maybe not go to college at all, have colleges educate people about. The benefits of marriage and also make it harder to get divorced. So it really is kind of scary that the way they're trying to, you know, have more children born is to cut back on women's opportunities, put them in potentially dangerous domestic violence-prone situations with no way out. And then, as you mentioned, on top of that. To cut back on supports for single mothers who obviously have to raise children on fewer resources and with kind of fewer shared caregiving possibilities, and somehow cutting back on what they have to survive. Privilege a two-parent married family. So again, it's pushing kind of other families out of this kind of the mainstream and the norm. It's very punitive. And it doesn't really kind of think about the kids that exist now in all different kinds of families. It's just taking away from them in order to kind of put a spotlight and a privilege on one type of family, which maybe was never really the norm for anybody where it's a stay-at-home parent and a one bread-winning parent. That's not a reality that works for a lot of people ever, but that's the that's the image and that they're trying to outlook. Sorry, that was a lot in there. That was a it's Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, and it's just no no no. That was I it's thank you for that 'cause it really does It it doesn't make s like if we go back, it just doesn't make sense. it is getting extra it it I I love having my own house. I love not having a roommate, etc. But it is very, very challenging for so many people to be that individual, to maintain the whole all of what goes into It we're just not very humane, right? And and I think about even in the way we talk about divorce, because of how we have made it so cutthroat in this country for for people to just live, right? Just healthcare, just to just to live, go to work before like all the fun hyper material shopping of the United States. how that impacts love and marriage, you know, like When it's not a choice, when it has to be about survival. And then if it's about survival, how does it change the dynamic of the relationship? How does marrying for survival lead to resentment, possible domestic violence? How does feeling trapped in a marriage because you can't leave? Because we don't have the social systems, economic systems in place. Like it is very dehumanizing on so many levels, just down the line that I was like, whoa, you know, if we cared. Like, what if we had a society where a lot of things were met so that if a woman, you know, if a mother and her children didn't want to stay married to that man, there wasn't this massive fight over alimony or just these aggressive divorce hate things. It just is like because there was never going to be a question of is is the the woman and child gonna be without a home, food, whatever. It's already there. And I was just like, it would radically change the way we relate to one another if we could allow one another to breathe. Like just breathe. And anyway, I I've just been as you saying all of this, like these this hyper focus on the individual family, like, you know, I I I I love the family. And also it is just that's just not how people survive. Even It's just not how it works. So because of yeah. So anyway, I I I'm curious if like the inadequacies or just what you're hear what I'm hearing is the inadequacies of of being independent, that rugged individualist, like I think it leads to a lot of resentment and and violence, r resentment between genders, domestic violence, and just when we could just have a more compassionate society. We really could. We're so close. I'm sorry, that was a tangent by the way, too. Amy K Matsui: that was a tangent by the way too. Well I mean look, I mean there's we know that, you know, kind of the unpaid labor to put it that way, of caregiving and taking care of a family Together, that's always been thought of as women's work, and it's not been given kind of the value and importance. And sometimes, you know, it's it's not the case that there always has to be a dollar amount attached to something to put value on it, but that's kind of how an easy way to vision it. It's also just kind of important to think about. In the best possible scenario, when you have a family, everybody is pulling their weight, everybody recognizes the contributions of each person in the family. Just kind of zooming back out to what we're seeing with costs of living and how expensive it is to get a house, how expensive care is, these are not problems that families can solve on their own because it's a systemic. crisis and again that's kind of why we have to have like a systems wide answer. And one of the other I think really pernicious things about this even just the title, Saving America by Saving the Family, is you're flipping it and saying the answer and the policy solutions are just focused on the individual family. And instead we need to be thinking about how do communities thrive, how do you know all the people in the state thrive in their variety? Because there are just things that families can't figure out on their own. One other thing which I'm just gonna mention, you know, we've talked a little bit about snowballing and spiraling, that sometimes when a person or a family has like an you know an economic disruption, we'll call it, and a whole bunch of impacts unfold. If you think about people's lives over time, so when you have, let's just imagine that you have a young woman and she's you know had a child. Takes time out of the workforce, when she tries to go back in, it's gonna be a little bit of a struggle. She may not get the same level of job she had before, and she's lost like a chunk of earnings over her lifetime. It may be that she's then gonna have to take time out of the workforce again if she has older relatives, parents, or a spouse that she has to take care of. And maybe she's facing like a pay gap, a wage gap that we talk about because of discrimination and other factors. So at the end of her career, she's gonna have less savings. She's gonna have less social security benefits. And we have to kind of deal with that as a society. Whenever people are struggling and can't get what they need. That is a drag and a loss on our economy. But if you flip it, when we have supports and we if there's nutrition assistance, if there's health care, if there's affordable housing and we can give those benefits, or even you know, refundable tax credits like the child tax credit, we are often gonna see like a multiplier effect because that really improves people's well being. And then, as we talked about just when we kicked off, that means That people can do better at school. That means kids can do better at school. People can do better at work. They can invest in themselves in opportunity in their communities. And that's really where we should be trying to move, making the investments in families and communities that help us all thrive. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Absolutely. Amy, as we're we're coming towards the end here, I'm curious, Amy K Matsui: Amy, as we're we're coming towards the end here. I'm curious. Leigh/@followtheleighder: what are some ways that within our own communities women can step up and help other women? And also second question is how can my followers learn more about you and support the National Women's Law Center? So two different things. One is what can we do in our own community? The other is How can we support your platform and work? Amy K Matsui: Thanks for those two great questions. I mean, I think everybody is the expert in their own about their own lives. People know what's happening in their families and what their families need, and they can see what's going on in their communities. So I think just taking every opportunity to say, how can we be better? and sharing that vision with people in power, we're That makes you the architect of your own future. And that's the the best way I think for people to get involved is to say, this is what I'm seeing in my life right now. And this is what I think we need to change. And that has such power. and then for If if the National Women's Law Center can provide information that helps you do that or ways to make your voice heard, we really would be excited for people to check us out. We're nwlc.org and there's just a wealth of information and ways that you can learn more and get involved on the website. So thanks for asking. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Amy, I really hope that Amy K Matsui: I really hope. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you will come back and and and continue to keep us updated. we are so thankful for the work you're doing. And I know that it's tireless. I know that it's overwhelming and and probably often probably thankless and dark. So I hope that this brings light to you and and is a reminder that what you're doing is so important and that we're cheering you on. before we wrap up, are there any last things that you want to leave us with? Amy K Matsui: I'm just really grateful for the chance to talk to you today. I love the way that the conversation is woven in so many different things because nobody lives a single issue life. Everything is is connected. So I really appreciate the conversation today. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Folks, let me know what you thought of this conversation. Just like she said, if anything touched for you, hit home. Let us know in the comments. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. You know the drill. And again, if you have any questions that I can ask her the next time she's back in the studio, please, that would be fantastic. Let me know. Folks, this has been another episode of Follow the Leighder... I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And until next time, see ya.