Latest / For All Nerds Show / Kieron Gillen Reveals All About The Power Fantasy!!!

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Kieron Gillen Reveals All About The Power Fantasy!!! · For All Nerds Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, y'all? On this episode of the four All
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Nerds Show, we welcome Kering Gillan, the legendary comic book
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: creator that I stole everything from and what's up y'all?
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: And welcome back to this episode of the four All
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Nerds Show. As always, we are bringing you that heat,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and tonight we are welcoming back a friend of the
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: show family, the author creator of such works as The
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Wicked and The Divine Die, both the comic and the
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: role playing game, the graphic novel We Called Them Giants,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and the current hit series The Power Fantasy, available now
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: from Image Comments. Please welcome back to the spaceship Kering Gillan.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Just love it to be here.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: When you list all the toils, I feel exhausted.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 1: And I didn't even like talk about X Men, you know,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and some of the other I don't want to. I
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: didn't want to just be like droning on and on.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, I definitely I've had a career,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I just stopped now, so
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: that's probably enough.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: You've done some great work.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I must say.
• 1:12
  Speaker 5: You say it exhausted, but you feel accomplished.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I feel happy. Honestly, it's like kind of like one
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: of the goals was always to have just a shelf
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: for the books that I was proud of, you know,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: and I've done it. I feel very lucky, you know,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: notice weird. I'm always trying to be. I'm very aware
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I have lucky I being, you know, in terms of
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: get to do the work I have been.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Well it's you know, this is really interesting
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: for me because ten years ago when we met, I
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: was just a pure fan of yours, and then we
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: became friends. You know, I can say that I think
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and I'm written a graphic novel. You know, I want
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: to make sure you know, I don't. I don't want
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: to get ahead of myself. And I've read a graphic
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: novel acquaintance, we've met, I've even been to one of
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: your parties. I can't eve say yes. And I've now
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: written a graphic novel myself.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Hender's purple haze on shells everywhere. So I can
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: say that we're peers. You know, he's just like me.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: So how has this tenure journey been for you?
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: But it's been a lot, han't it? Ten years ago well,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Wick Did was just coming out. I mean, I was
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: a bas station of my life. You know, I was
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: really kind of imploding and started to pull myself together,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean the six or seven years of
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: therapy in that ten years, you know, like, which is
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: really good for me. The work's being happy. I've got
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: a kid now, she's three years old. I tell you
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: what's something. I imploded When I was twenty eight about
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: to turn thirty. I did a book called Phonogram. I
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: imploded at thirty eight about to turn forty did Wicking Divine.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Like I was forty eight last year and forty nine
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: this year, I haven't imploded as at least as far
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: as I'm aware. And that implies that maybe, you know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I feel calmer and not in a bad way, in
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: a kind of like okay way, like I'm sort of
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: I'm a bit more at home with being like whoever
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I am, And that I think comes across from the
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: work a bit, at least I hope it does.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, do you think that therapy has something to do
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  Speaker 5: with it?
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  Speaker 4: Do you think that, I mean.
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  Speaker 2: Not just in terms of like eventually got my adctually
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: diagnosed in the same period, which I sort of always
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: sort of vaguely knew about so that me and my
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: wife were both better able to navigate on nonsense.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: But you know what I mean.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know when things you might have had
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: an argument over, you have the argument, and then you
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: immediately step back and go, Okay, what actually happened there?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: And you can come back, you know what I mean. Like,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I'm slightly more valuable to be around. I think that's
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: the best way for me. I hope I am. It'd
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: be awful if I was worse.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's funny because I mean that funny. But
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: it's also like, in the same time period, I've also
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: been through some of the same things you went through,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: like with the losses of parents and things of that nature.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: And I know when I met you, I had no idea,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: you know, that you were going through these things. And
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  Speaker 1: it's always interesting to me because people can just, you know,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: come off pretty normal, like I would have no idea
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: that you were imploding at the time. I was sitting there, like,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: oh my god, this dude's right some of the best
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: stuff I've ever read. And you know, he's cool. When
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I meet him, he's a really nice guy, and so
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: it's really interesting, and I'm really happy to hear that
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: you're in a better place now.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: It's hard, I mean, it's like you do. I mean,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: people just always put up front, you know what I mean,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: And also like it's easy to sort of keep on
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: going more momentum, and in some ways it's like the
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: word of the worst things about the wickdiff period was
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: as often as it was in lots of ways like
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  Speaker 2: it was also great. It was one of the best
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: periods of my life as well, you know, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: And the contrast between like how well the career was
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: going and how like terrible I felt mostly was interesting.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's kind of like in the third year
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: of WIKTIV when law is imploding, That's kind of what
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I was about. Oh no, you've got what you wanted
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and this is what it cost. And that's the kind
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: of what the third Dear was about, in terms of
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: really trying to pick apart the unbearable tension of that,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But that's all of thinking
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: about grief. It's alway it's invisible, you don't. People kind
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: of forget about it quite often. Like one of the
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: new things I'm blighting. It's about something similar to this,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: and I end up doing a load of research about
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: parents lost kids like horrifically young, and like how people
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: under treating them and quite often the same idea they
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: might forget either like that because they can't. I just
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: it's not present for there. And that's the awful thing
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: about grief is this You're going through something, it's very
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: personal and the world just carries on, you know what
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I mean. Anyway, this is got serious.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I get there a little later, but you know,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: let's just go straight well.
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  Speaker 6: No, I mean it's kind of good to I don't
• 5:26
  Speaker 6: want to just carry it out the way, but it's
• 5:27
  Speaker 6: kind of good to just get it out because like
• 5:29
  Speaker 6: this is also topics that people shy away from anyway,
• 5:31
  Speaker 6: And I mean said, maybe we was gonna wait for later,
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: but it's kind of like, let's just put it out
• 5:35
  Speaker 6: and open. Because on our show, one of the things
• 5:37
  Speaker 6: that we were a huge proponent of is obviously talking
• 5:39
  Speaker 6: about your feelings, but really like therapy and the idea
• 5:42
  Speaker 6: of negotiating the hard parts of life, right, negotiating what
• 5:46
  Speaker 6: does that mean and how that affects you, how to
• 5:48
  Speaker 6: affect your work, everything about it. So like we appreciate
• 5:51
  Speaker 6: that you're even being open to doing this and expressing
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: that like that that matters to a lot of people.
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: They don't hear that you.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Heart in your slave matters. I think in some degree,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: like and I still fit this. I'm quite a private
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: person lots of ways, but otherwise I'm not evidently had
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: by the last five minutes of conversation. But it's like
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: it's true, I mean just I mean one of the
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: things I really amirre about Jamie like McKelvey, my artist,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: my ex friend, phonogram artist, but you know online he
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: talks about ADHD constantly and so many people have discovered
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  Speaker 2: there have gone through their own journey by watching him
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: and him talking is openly about things which are difficult
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: for him. It's a bit like that, the idea that
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: you know, it's one of the few upsides of the
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Internet in that you are less figuring your stuff out.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: You know, you can see people who do to do
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: that and go what I maybe now I see myself
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: in a different way. I did a character called them Prodigy,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: who was an X Men character who basically I need
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: a kind of metaphor for him basically discovering his sexuality.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: But his powers activated in a certain way, and it
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: wasn't his powers made him gay. Also by well his
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: powers did was he basically communicated a lot of people simultaneously,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: sort of saw himself in different parts therefore understood himself better.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: And of course that for me, that was a metaphor
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  Speaker 2: for specifically, like how knowing people are, speaking to people
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and getting their perspective of life and how they feel
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: about stuff allows you to better see yourself, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and that kind of and that's one of the things.
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  Speaker 2: We're not alone, you know, That's that's kind of what
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  Speaker 2: you kind of hope art is. You know, it minds
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  Speaker 2: us that we are connected in these kind of experiences
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  Speaker 2: and while you're not them, your things overlap with that.
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  Speaker 2: I'd swear there'll be a joke soon at some point.
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  Speaker 1: No, but it's like, and all of this is so
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  Speaker 1: real because I tell people all the time it was
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: you and the previous writers work on Young Avengers with
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Hawkling and Wicking that really just changed my view on sexuality,
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  Speaker 1: on just life in general, like on love and expressing
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: that and how people should be free to love whoever
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: they want. And that was just something you know, that
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  Speaker 1: book really did that for me, So I always credit that,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: and you know, it's just fantastic that you put this
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  Speaker 1: stuff out there and that you are so open with
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: all these type of things.
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  Speaker 2: It's a pretty mean also, it's a privile issue, but
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: you must have had some of this in terms of
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: like you're writing, you know, like when you put your
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: eye together there people will find stuff and they'll come
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to you. And you know, does that you know, does
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: that make sense to say? Because you want the boy
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: as you say, you're a pear now and you know, yeah,
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: especially like the sort of with comics are so few
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: filters as opposed to like when you work with something
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: a bit of a gap like when I worked on magazine.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: So I say that if you say, when you work
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: in television, people don't necessarily know you as well because
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: now but with comics you're much closer to the audience.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: It's much more like being a band to you. That's
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: why I've always fast, you know, all my comics about
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: music to some degree, I've said that aloud. That's not
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: quite true, but most of them are at least some
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like you're very close so
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: you get to see that. So have you found it well.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: This is the most frightening part of it for me
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: is uh like like I haven't really told you this,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: but you know, giving you the book was like terrifying
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: for me. You know, I know, no, you went and
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: gotage yourself, but you know, just that like the fact
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: that you went out and gotage yourself was terrifying. But
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: that was there was certain people that when I wrote
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: the book, I knew that they would read it, you know, you,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Joe Illige, young Guru. And then I wasn't sure. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I know there'd be other people who I've talked to,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: you know, other writers, artists that are who would read it.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: But you three, I could say off the top of
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: my head were people who I knew who were either
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: in the industry or just very influential on me. And
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I knew that you would read it, and that was
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: really terrifying. And then the other part I was reading
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: The Power Fantasy Zion last night, which is also a
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: brilliant shout out to everybody who's part of that. That
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: shit is phenomenal, And they were talking about Matsumi in it,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: and they're talking about being an artist and putting your
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: work out into the world. And then waiting for people.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: So it's it's I mean, honestly, it's been fantastic. It's
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: been like I was very proud of Hendrick, so it
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: was I was just waiting for people to see it,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: and so it was it's really nice. But then it's
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: also it's just it's I don't know, it's it's every
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: emotion of the world. It's like, yeah, I have the
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: fear of not doing something else. I have a fear
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: of you know, doing something good again. I have a
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: fear of people still like liking it, you know, to
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: this day like that. You know, I know a lot
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: of people liked it, but some people be like that's
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: cool whatever, you know. So it's all these different things.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I remember with Phonogram, like at least when I was
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: doing that was like me and Jamie were maybe less
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: of Jamie, but certainly me that if this is the
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: only book I do, I've got to be happy with it.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: It's good as an If I never do own of
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: a comic again, this is a statement that matters. And
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: I get to say that, you know, I mean from
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Purple Hayes in that way, you don't don't want it
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: to be only work, but you can see that. Okay,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going for it, you know what I mean, Like,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: it's not just me doing a standard action comic. This
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: is my you know, I mean, asn't There's something about
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: I remember my Alex de Campi, the writer. I was
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: picturing something else at the time of Phonogram, and it
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: was a sort of supernatural Essays comic. You know, it
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: was good. I think it had really you know, the
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: office was great, there was other stuff going on, but
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: she said, this is fun, this is fun pulp here,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: and do you want it to be your first comic?
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: And I wasn't because she would then I sat down
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: before Now she's right, you know I should, you know,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: so I call started a phonogram, Which is the better
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: or worse something that I could do? I think that's
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: something at least only I could do it in the
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: way I did it. And I think you get that
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: and that kind of let's really what can we do here?
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: You know? And it's exciting because I dearly want I'll
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: tell you what the only is that's how that's the
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: best way to get a second book. I think, you
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: know what I.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Mean, I mean, I want to I want to ask
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: you so many more questions about it, but I will
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: get to that too. But that, like, that was the
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: that was you hit it right on the nail, because
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: one I didn't really have a choice in this. It
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: was like Mellow came to me, was like, Hey, would
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: you like to pitch on this? So that was my
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: first chance to do a comic. So I was like, hell, yeah,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I'd like to do a comic. And you know, Jimmy
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Hendrix is the opportunity I can't pass up. And so
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: we pitched on it and then we got it. And
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: when we got it, I'm like, Okay, I don't That's
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: how I kind of approach a lot of things in
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: life because I just I don't know. I'd like to
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: do things all the way. And that was the other
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: side of it. I talked to so many people, and
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I've read so many comics, and I interviewed and I've
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: reviewed comics, so I knew I couldn't put out anything. Then,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: you know, all these people I've talked about their stuff,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: I couldn't have them reading and being like a look
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: at this guy. You know he was talking on it
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: about my book, and now I look what he did trash.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So I really was like, no, we gotta go for it,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and then you know, like I'm in, like I'm you
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: are a huge influence on me, and so waking at
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the vine, you know, the idea of doing something different
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: and trying to push levels, you know, and like I said,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: it was still my first joint, so I don't, I don't.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, did you know, I'm like, did we do anything?
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: But that's you know, I'm just I was hoping to
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: do things of that nature.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: It's not like the generally your first I mean, look
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: at look at photograph, like you're always learning when you're
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: doing your first comic. But at the same time the
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: submit stuff which you tat seeing phonogram that it also works. Yeah,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: you know, I think I think it's something ste with
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: felt the HENDRICKX. I said, you know, you've got there's
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: a voice there, especially, like I said, you're wrestling in
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: a different way like the way phonogram works is Jamie
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: is of course clean lines. So yeah, I think one
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: of the classic ways of doing like music and comics
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: is to go impressionistic, you know, or like you know,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: which we couldn't do. So we had to find different
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: ways and quite a more modelist and of course you
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: did it, you went out, You're absolutely leaned into that.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: That's because it's of forget match of Hendrix liking it
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: as a Hendrix is somebody I always I listened to.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: He was like one of the first artists I discovered
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: for myself, like I was eleven or twelve, and I
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: didn't really know the story as that well until like
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: relatively recently, and then when I actually got the story
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: as well, it's like the level of nerd in Hendrix,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: you know, and I thought he would have done that
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: out of this, but then you know, and especially how
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Hendrix impressionistically fails because Hendrix is like I remember, like
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: lying on my bed was sort of disappearing, the full
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: body shivers kind of yeah, and that's what Hendrix is ecstatic,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: and like you know, you know, obviously I would I
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: would never do you know. I was eleven, so I
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: didn't know anything about the level of drugs in the world. Yeah,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: but like that kind of the that the the the
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: control reality, and that's the cause of the things which
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: the visuals are handling there as well.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Anyway, And now last on that we just we that
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: was the first conversation I had with Tom Mandrake and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: we both talked about how we didn't want to see
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of squiggly notes floating in the air. You know.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: We wanted to try and do music in a way that,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: you know, if it hadn't been done or just you know,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: a different you know, just try and do something different,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: like and I read obviously Wick and then there's this
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: gym in the Holograms book that I thought was brilliant,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: the way they showed music. And so we were just
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: trying to do something a little different and that would
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: also feel like Hendricks.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, A fit strong it up really well. I think
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I want to be petrified, honestly, Like a few times
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: I'd be like asked to do things or pitch stuff,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: and I pitched a bury thing at one point, and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I kind of was glad it died on the point.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was worried about the big Hindreds fans, but
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: I was just it was like I also approached things
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: like whatever, man, I just try to do it.
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: You know, you you have the opportunity, just just jump
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: into it. Just just do what you need to do,
• 14:59
  Speaker 6: and I you won't fall throughout. Also, I'm really happy
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: that you did because it came out beautifully.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do you mention it? It's like just a matter
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: if people don't like it. I don't mean it about
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: as that kind of you don't that's about me to
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: rephrase it. The people who don't like it don't matter.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Asked about the people who do like it, and that
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: kind of like it's like, you know, it's one of
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: people who, okay, let's be awful commercial for a second.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: It's people who like you by your stuff, right, But
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: it's better that, like, you know, it's a thousand true
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: fans model. If a thousand people like you, you probably have
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a career. If you know, fifty thousand people are kind
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: of okay with you, you don't word you know, and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: that's one of the you know, audiences and audiences in
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: that way, ye do.
• 15:41
  Speaker 6: People kind of like the para fantasy? I mean, I
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: guess it's just okay, right, doing middling middling, you know,
• 15:47
  Speaker 6: middling numbers.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I don't read the reviews, and be'st bits of stick
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: on the wall behind me.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: That's actually a real question, you know, particularly about paraphanay
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: and everything else. Do you read the reviews? Like do
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: you at this point does that?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm a recovering critic. You know, I
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: always like a critic for like fifteen years. So I
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: have a greater interest in criticism than most comic writers,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I think because I like the art form, and there's
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: a bit that I can also read people in a
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: different way in terms of like not even like what
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: you're thinking about me. I'm like owner, that's a bad arguments.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: In some level, I feel like I'm criticizing craft more
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: than anything else. But no, I don't read things closely
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: all the time. At least I will probably skim down
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: and just see the shape of it. Occasionally I might
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: read more, but mostly it's not written for me, you
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: know what I mean. Like there's a line Jamie Michael,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: you know, so it's written for the audience, it's read
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: for the writer as a line Jamie uses that all
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: criticism I will either tell you about something about you
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: already know. Yes I know it's padded here, or yes
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I know it's cramped. I've killed myself making it happen.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Or it'll tell you something about the writer, you know
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: what I mean. There's a line that wild duses, which
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: is basically all criticism is autobiography, and the argument BASICEE.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Is that that when they're talking about the work, they're
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: really talking about them else, and not in a bad way,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: because that's what art is, that where they've been, where
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: they're from, how they see the world. You know, I
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: remember like someone saying a wictive it might be a phonogram.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: These characters are promiscuous, and the fact they used the
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: word promiscuous made me kind of know.
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: Where they stood in life socially.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Those two things. But occasionally exactly it's such a funny word.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: They were totally making out.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: But there is a tiny fracture criticism which actually tells
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: you something you don't know, which I always which I
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: find really and it's a very small fragment, and it
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: is a moment of like where you have failed self
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: awareness and not about like I remember like Sword writing
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: about Phonogram at Colin thinking about my comics. He was
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: a blogger, he still casually does something, but something he
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: noticed about Phonogram and he wrote like twenty thousand words
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: about phonogram. Blessing was that how a hedonic all the
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: casts were, how completely lacking and pleasure in music as
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: in not the whole as in the lead characters they
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: listen to music, they kind of bleached the pleasure out
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: of it for them, because that's and that's there's a
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: fundamental sadness to the first phonogram. These are kind of
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: like music critics and all metaphorical music critics, and they've
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: kind of got lost in their bullshit in that way,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And that was something I
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: hadn't really thought about, how the fundamental I mean, and
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I kind of knew about it if I step back
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: and forward about it. But the fundamental lack of joy
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in the cash, which only comes in right at the
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: end when Cole smiles and gets over himself, you know,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: that fundamental truth there, and then occasionally it's that's a
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: really well thought out thing. But I always remember like Wicked,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: like a random one line tumblrup post, and it was
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: talking about, you know, law is acting self destructive because
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: she is a depressed and she's been depressed since the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: beginning of the book. And I had my moment of
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: horror when I realize I never realized I was writing
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: a depressed I was just writing her like me, oh no,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: you were depressed. Hearing you were just depressed. You know,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: it's just a you know, I mean occasionally it's that fundamental,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: but most of the time its stuff you probably know,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: mm hmm.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: But that the.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Flippers, you know, I said, it's all telling you about themselves.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: That the autobog. That's fine, you know, Like I'm interested
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: in hearing people's response because it's about their own journey,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you know, and the fact we're all doing our own
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: journeys and we could communicate for feelings, that's worth well.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I do kind of read it, yeah, and I agree
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: with you there. I think that like so far from
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: me at least, I've learned more from people who liked
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: the book. Like you said, the fans that mad are
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the ones who were like because they'll tell me parts
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, this hit me, this hit me, and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's great. You know that worked, and
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's very cool that you got that
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: reaction to it. Or they'll find something that I didn't
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: even think about in the book and I'm like, oh,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: that's really interesting that you were thinking on that level,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: because I really wasn't. But you know, it works.
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: You see how John and Peel felt when people were
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: like finding all this eating and he was like, it
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: was just a bowl of milk and cereal.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the para fantasy saying the paracuts, which is great.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Google it, folks. It's like a one hundred and thirteen
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: page zine of these people just right essays all art
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: and fana and wonderful time and the like. They've just
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: gone for it, you know what I mean? They I mean,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: and I write work to be inter We bury stuff
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: in there, and Casper put stuff in as well, but
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: just the nature of art, there's always more in there.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: You know. There's a line I've got the guy's name
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Brianino's cards, it's only your mistake as you're hidden intention,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: which is a great liner, and I think about that
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: quite often in that kind of like there are no mistakes.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: If you can make an argument and it holds up,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: you know it's true of the work of art. If
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: it holds up is the key line, because occasionally people
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: make arguments and it's like, I don't think this is
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: true because of evidence on this page, But you know
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: that's part of the game.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: I'm actually curious just the way you write A lot
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: of your workout everything, but a lot of it, it's
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: even power fantasy. You do the Emidius rests technique where
• 20:41
  Speaker 6: like you just drop us, you drop us right in,
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: and then I feel like we're always putting ketchup, like, well,
• 20:46
  Speaker 6: wait a minute, where are these people coming from?
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: What's happening?
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: And I know that's part of the game, right, that's
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: part of the story and people putting a puzzle pieces together,
• 20:53
  Speaker 6: and that could be quite fun for like avid readers,
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: general fans of yours, but like for some people, that
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: could be a turn off, right they want to be
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: spoon fed, right, Why is that technique your preference?
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: It's tricky because it's like, I agree with you because
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: that's there most people's response. But I always think that
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I'm actually you know, I think I'm I'm dropping you
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: in media res, but I'm explaining everything you need to
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: know in context, I think, And I'm clearly wrong because
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: some people.
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: Are like, I don't know what the fuck is going on.
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: I'm like, wait a minute, So he put.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You like the special fancy I We're dropping into a
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: very developed world with like fifty years of history, with
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: people with existing relationships, and writing it as naturalistically as
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: we can, and occasionally you cut a lot of it
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: is just quite tight small because I think I'm giving
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: enough nods. And it's that kind of like when we're
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: doing the opening scene with Etien in The Valentina in
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: the New York in the sixties, when our editor Katie
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: was reading it, she was basically her fault. I think
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: she was getting wrong, by which it means because she
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: was making assumptions based upon it so early on. It's
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: pretty much like I have to do a very hot
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: There's a line you may notice of like Ettien talking
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: about the being of her atomics who know who are
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: knowing her as powerful as I am, And that's very
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: carefully added to make sure you're okay, these two are different,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: these other people, you know, So all those kind of
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: really just you've got to try to build enough to
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: give scaffolding even if the whole structure is not able
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: to tell yeah, you basically you know, you may not
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: have to see the elephant. You need to know it's
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: an elephant. This is the only of course, WIKTIV was
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: theither way around. WICKTIV had an elephant was deliberally about
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: making miss misleading, you know, as a wictive was a
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: story just loing to the reader across the whole forty
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: issues of Forlty fifty issues because it was about how
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: stories lie to us. That's kind of what the theme was.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to basically me and JB wanted to
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: show how stories can deceive us and how we buy
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: into these lies about ourselves and how we you know,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: and how all that. That's what the story is about
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: in this case. It's not this case, it's specifically that's
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: how we kind of live through life. I guess. So
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: I do my tailt my head isn't. I don't know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I don't. I think it SEMs the only way I
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: can do it, because it's like I want to be
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: artful the bios, you know, graceful and right in these
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: worlds and write these people naturally with the minimum exposition
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: as possible. But at the same time I and I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: try not to lose anybody. I mean, I think I
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: always keep a figure on being accessible. This is a
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: smart person's book, and I'm like, oh da, I'll fucked
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: up again. Sorry, I'm messed up again. I was trying
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to be good, but yeah, you know, that's part of me.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I just think it's naturalism, you know what I mean,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: And especially with this, it is a bit of a tease,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: as in, like, there's stuff you don't want to know,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, I think the thing is the
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: stuff which clearly you don't know, but I'm hoping I'm
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: revealing the stuff you don't know hard enough to make
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: you know. It's something we'll talk about later when I've
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: got stuff like when when goes oh, of course, the
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Second Summer of Love is the worst thing. Yeah, exactly.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I hope people go, oh, well, we'll definitely find out
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: later that there's stressing that very hard. It's opposed to
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: them assuming reading that and thinking I don't know what
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: the Second Summer of.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Love is, you know what I mean.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hoping people I suspect that's what I go
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: with as inn I have faith in the audience, having
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: faith in us. That's you know, I mean, as I
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: believe in that holy Congress of the two of us,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: you know, forming something together. But figures crossed.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's also one of those books and like
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've you know, reread Wick a lot of
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: times now over the years, and I think this is
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: the same thing where it's you know, you get more
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: from the rereads because even after I read Design and
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: one of them mentioned the signal, and I was like, wait,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I'm the signal. I miss that, And then I go
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: back and read it and there, you know, at the
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: end's like oh yeah, and the signal you know. I'm like, oh,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: you know, there it is right there. So what the
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: hell is the signal? You know? And what does that
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: have to do with everything? And it's just that mystery
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: that you know what unfolds. But I feel, like you said,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: you've given enough information of the characters and obviously most
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: of the audience of a Green and they're all along
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: for this journey. But one question I did have. I
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: wanted to start we get into some of the philosophy
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: of these characters, and in your view, what's the difference
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: between being ethical and being moral? Yeah, that was a
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: big question.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: It's a really good question of Literally, I fee my
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: philosopher friends about to jump me because my brains go
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: blank in terms of giving the specific definition.
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: I can give you the definition.
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: And this is where you pissed me off a little bit,
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: because I was like, what's the difference when and Valentino
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: are having that conversation, you know, or not even conversation
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: when all the characters are really just expressing that he's
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: the ethical.
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: One, she's the more one.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I was just going.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: Through loops like, well, what's the difference, right?
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: And I even like open a dictionary and looked, and
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: what sucks is they cross reference each other, Like the
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: definition of ethic is cross references morality, morality cross ethic.
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: And I said, well, what the hell does Kara think
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: the difference is, because it's clearly a difference.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I would say, specifically the handholding bottles of ethics about
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: society as an a set of rules which you agree
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: to live by, and bubbles are much more like thinks
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: you will do personally, like that's hard as an uh.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: When talks about wanting to be bowl means I want
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: to be good, I want to be I would rather
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: be kind. Unfortunately, I merely have to do something I
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: think is for the society. Why I think it's societal
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: societally quote unquote good as in like to pick one
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: specifically if she references can't are sorry references can't can't
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: of course believe that all laws are Basically there's a
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: word for this, but there's a special fancy word. Basically,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: it's just it is you know things are good or
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: not we could. They've got to be appliable universally. You
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: can have a rule saying it's okay to kill everybody
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: because I could kill her afore I want because that
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: rule can't be applied equally. That's what models are models.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how to phrase it. Souperman doesn't kill
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: his mobl in the articularly how the book is using it. No,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I just don't kill. That's the rules. Superman doesn't kill.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: That's what is model. An efficle in the case of
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: end he's the utilitarian in terms of like the greatest
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: good for the greatest number of people, in terms of like, no,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I will kill if I save a million people? Easy
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: who other? I will kill to save somebody because that
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: person has you know, that person has given up. If
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: if I have to kill this person, there are reasons
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: why I might choose to do so on a reasonable level.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And the problem with the fact, the problem with the
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: whole thing is that when you get to the creator
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: question of is it better to just kill one innocent
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: than the world live? You go and utilitarian will probably
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: say yes, and uh, you know that's the and that
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: the real problem of the book is the second you
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: get to the scale of nuclear war, everything becomes ethical. Yeah,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: And that's the that's the horror of the book, and
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: that's I've got Eian as a spot guy. He kind
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: of knows this, and you sort of see the things
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: he won't do, or at least you won't do yet.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And that's the one of the things I think drives
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the book. In the also a well, when is Ettie
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: and telling you the truth because he you know, he
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: would absolutely lie to you. That would be ethical in this.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: In this, it's never this is ethical. In this situation,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: it will be ethical. That's always. Of course, the meta
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: thing is the meta situation they're in is if we
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: have a fight, the world ends, you know. That's the
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and that's the thing that's always in this. I mean,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: one of the one of the key book bit points
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: and issue for which I think one of my favorite
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: issues is the when he's talking about I can you know,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I can reset your you know more, but I could
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I could help you leave Massumi Isabella if you want to.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: It may be it'll be difficult, but I'll help you,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: and she goes, maybe, actually, no, can you just help me?
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: And she does the mind wipe thing because she's asked
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: him too. The question I always ask is like, would
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: ye have helped her out? He's made the offer? Would
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: he do? We believe him? And that's one of the things,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like and I would like
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to think we maybe we do, but like at the
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: same time because you know, maybe do because you know,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: we've seen that he refused to immediately just kill the
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: families the people an issue want. He decided, no, you're
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: going too far, and I'm going to push back a bit, right,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean that's that's the whole Rovett yet
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: in that he's I even agree with you. It's one
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: of one of the things which is really buried in,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: like is she too? When he's talking to Massumi, he
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: talks about missus, He's like, you can't keep me balance,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: can you? No? You know, I keep myself back. You know,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: he's mind washing himself. He's controlling himself emotionally, because there
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: is what would he be like if you actually can
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: expressed you know what if he wasn't essentially on psychic
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: valume the whole time. You know what I meant ends
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: in an awful situation. There's a bit I don't know
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: if I'll say this because I'm not sure for everything
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: actually going to write it, but like one of the
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: problems that team will say is that his powers are
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: useless if anything happens, like if you know, if the
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Enormous two actually hits the fan, it's too late for him.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: He can't do anything.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: He said something to that effect, or that's what I
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: gleaned from it. In the later issue, he did see
• 29:25
  Speaker 6: something He's.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Got to do everything in advance, which is what he's
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: does the things he does, which of course is then
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: is it Yeah, yeah, the YadA, Yeah. I find it
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: all fascinating. As you say, you mentioned Earliers, like, it's
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: definitely read to be reread. That's one of the things
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: I love about comics in that his comics can be
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: read quicker, you can read, you can write for the
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: reread more because it's more likely people will reread this,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Especially with WICKTIV, the book change multiple times if you
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: reread it at different times.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: M M.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't think Parafancy is quite as death a define.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Para Fancy is as twisty as WICKTIV, but it's still
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: pretty twisty, but there's definitely enough that kind of like
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: the fine detail will be there when people go, oh, right,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: that has a different meaning now, or no, that's an
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: interesting thing I missed, Like the signal. You know, that's
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: quite a big deal, but it's only mentioned in passing
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: a couple of times in the first Dark because it's
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: not the Summer of Blood, you know, the second Summer
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: of Bluve is the big thing which we basically spending
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: free issues on in the second arcist It was going
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: to originally be like an issue in a half, and
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: then it was, oh no, it's going to be free issues.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: It's ridiculous, yeah, and gasps killing on it, honestly, Like
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: the page is the second arc, like the first arc
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: is kind of everything getting on the stage again, Like
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: you know, we ended up with the cliffhanger of the
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: first trade. The first issue six is kind of everybody
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: like panicking over what on earth they're doing, and then
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: stuff starts clapped, you know, then people stop making moves.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, before we get off the philosophy stuff,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I want to ask as Ferris Bueller and not exists
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: in this universe? Good question? Yeah for me. Whenever people
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: start talking Canteen Marxism and you know, is ian's anything.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: It's it starts, you know, going in one year to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: me and out there are going to bullshit. To me, honestly,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of it. It's like, you know, it's just
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of like men you know, coming over to
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: find just to find their bullshit, and that like, to me,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: most of the cast of the Power Fantasy comes off
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: with some bullshit artists like so far, I think I
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: fucked with hell Bound the most because she's just straight
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: up You're going to hell. You know, you know that's.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: That's a good example of an ethical code.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Understand that, like you are all going to hell, you know, you.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: Know why I'm here type of throat right understood.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: But as he comes off like the worst of me,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: and especially because of what you just said, the fact
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: that he can manipulate his own mind, So that means
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: like like because I was like, I deal with a
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: lot of trauma life and I'd like to be able
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to wipe it off my head. But at the same time,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I know that trauma and I know that stuff is
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: what keeps me on a path, you know, because if
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: I can just wipe out certain things, I would be like, oh,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: you know, one I wouldn't I wouldn't have the guilt,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have the shame, I wouldn't have the fear
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: of things happening to me. And then when he has
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: this level of power, like you say, where he can
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: pre plan everything, he's got the identic memory where he remember,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you know, everything, So he's dangerous as fun. And then
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: he's super dangerous because he thinks he's doing the right
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: thing and right thinks that's right. And my question, like,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: because none of them seemed to have seen Ferris Bueler
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: in that famous scene that they you know, I feel
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: like they all need to see because I was.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Just like, how how old was Betta and being when
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Ferrist Buler came out the math of like, I wouldn't
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: he he was by forty forty forty? Yeah, too late,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: he might have missed it.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's already on his path by forty He's he's
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: a monster.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: I think what to say about that? It's tricky because
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: it's like, you're right about the memory. If you actually
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: this is how you learn. I haven't said the story,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: hasn't said and actually watched his own memories. He probably could,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: but it's definitely sad they control himself. Yeah, it's like,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: what do you think it's ethical for me to actually
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: not remember bad things I've done?
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: There and there's there's there's like, yeah.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I don't want to give an answer to that one because
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: my gut, my immediate guts in terms of it, as
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: An would say, it's unethical for him. No, I have too.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: I've done because otherwise I don't understand what's happening, and
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: I don't understand actually my like I don't understand the
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: mobile things, what's going on. He won't necessarily fail the guilt.
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: That's why that's where the lack of morals come from.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Not forgetting anything is hard for normal humans to deal
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: with though so far, you know, like as a friend
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: of ours, Dark Adams you know, says he has that
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: where he remembers everything in his life, and it's like,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: you know, that's quite you know a lot, and yeah,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: to be a I'm listening telepath whatever you know, have
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: all this power.
• 33:59
  Speaker 6: You know, I think you're mad that he has so
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: much power and should have a responsibility, but it doesn't know,
• 34:06
  Speaker 6: it's not that.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: I'm mad, I just don't trust him. Like I saw
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Karen talk about how people, you know, describing heroes and
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: villains to various characters in this book, and to me,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: they're all villains so far, there is no you know,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: none of these people are heroic, and then something else
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: trust them. It's like, you know, we're dealing with the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: superpower thing. Right, their world is I don't know if
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: it's you know, better off than ours.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: It doesn't any.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Right, but zero.
• 34:38
  Speaker 6: Everything seems kind of the same, right, Like the worse.
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: You think slightly worse, I mean obviously, I mean.
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: Doing too well either from understand right cissance but.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Isabella Isabella color types the leading issue like so Isabella
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: talking about like the specifically the more the ground level
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: fall out of wiping out a continent or removing it,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: like how the dis borer works. Like there's a kind
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: of running fame in the background. You're sort of your
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Europeans was a little fetishized, a little bit sad and distant.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: That's kind of like just that kind of you know,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Italian foods now means something slightly different where there's no Italy,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: you know, and all those kind of things is kind
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: of built into book. No, I'd agree it's worse, and
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: at least there's a kind of intellectual sleight of hand
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: in the in the book, in the the phrases like
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: most of the will problems which are solved happen in
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: a similar lead to a similar result, like what actual
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Valentina does an issue free when she basically adverts a
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Cuban missile crisis. It's kind of what happened anyway, Like
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: that that's they made, they came to the deal, and
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: that they removed the butt. You know, that's actually happened.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: She just preempted and pissed everyone off. Like in eighty nine,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: we actually the Soviet Union ends, of course in the
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: real world.
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: Because it doesn't exist.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So we've kind of got the same structure,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: you know, and there's two reces of that, at least partially.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: The nature of the status qrow between the different superpowers
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: does a level of arrestment. You know, stuff can't really
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: change as easily. Secondly, I wanted ninete eighty nine to
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: sort of feel like a little bit like I was
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: at first glance. And then the more you drill down,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: the more you kind of see, because I think there
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: are they're going to be some specific things which are different.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: My kind of broadway is the eighties were significantly to
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: the left than they were in the UK were in
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: our real world and then and the nineties were slight
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: to the right, like his Republican presidents all the way
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: for the nineties in our universe, Clinton was never president
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: in the our timeline. We haven't touched on this because
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: it's not killed to the book, but like it's like
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: after the Soviet Union fell, the way it fell in
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: this world led to more basic paranoia, especially that it
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: was the vaguely left leading superheroes who kinda were responsible,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So like Valentine, it was
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: popular on the walls in the nineteen sixties. She's less
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: viewed that way now, like absolutely true, Yeah, she's still
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: pretty much. I don't want to say some really good
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: stuff in as you saiven about how people viewed valid
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: you know, I think I said really good. There's the image.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: If an image gets in my head and I feel that,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: you know, it gets me emotionally, I kind of think
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: it's probably gonna get other people.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that flu is that at the same time,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: is it's deft to push a pup through this is
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: the different world but also at a gland symbol enough,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: but you can drill down. There's there's some positive bigness
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: which are different. I think, uh yeah, but you've got
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: to drill down to get them.
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: It's yes, yes.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: How to phrase this that the police are less brutal
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: in America for what?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah we've seen that. Ye yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: already been talked about. You know that someone you know
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: is killing off the cops. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:38
  Speaker 6: It gives me thoughts of us, like when you think
• 37:41
  Speaker 6: when you see the bad things quote unquote the bad
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: things happening tim right in this world, and I always
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: feel like, well, if there's a superhero, they could just
• 37:47
  Speaker 6: stop it, right, or if I have the powers, I
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: could just stop them, or I could get rid of
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: this person, I could do this, I could do that.
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: But then to see that actually play in this story,
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: that's where I agree with Ben, where I'm like, oh,
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: things are actually a bit worse off, right, because I
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: mean I always tell Ben like, if that was me,
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: I would probably be perceived as a villain. If I
• 38:05
  Speaker 6: have powers of any sort, I would probably perceive a
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: villain because I would have the Etian view of the world, right,
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: And I don't know then how maybe people will not
• 38:18
  Speaker 6: connect with the characters right, because they despise everyone or
• 38:22
  Speaker 6: they have problems with everyone, and we personally, I have
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: big problems with Masami.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: Oh interesting, I probably one of the.
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: Few people that do not like her. And and it's
• 38:35
  Speaker 6: tied to that whole thing about the art. And this
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: is you know, I understand being scared and fearful noticed
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: other stuff.
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: Her art, her feeling that her art keeps everyone else alive.
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: I think that's the.
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: Most horrible individualistic, egotistical, like all the negative emotions you
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: could think of, that's that's what elicited motion on me.
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: Every time she was on the page in a frame,
• 39:01
  Speaker 6: I had my I have the most churning reaction in
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: my stomach, like I I don't like that thought of
• 39:11
  Speaker 6: constantly having to appease something or someone to avoid instant death.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: It's trictly, it's one of the things that I agree,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: like the horrors, it's all about the Massumi issue. We
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: call it the Massumi issue. It's really the Massumi and
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Isabella issue, you know, because it's really about these two
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: women that for me, obviously power groups are power reveals
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: edge the obviously ideas which in the in the story.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: One of the things I think Massumi is about. It
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: is how parad dis thoughts and it's going to Massumi
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: does have to do anything. People have been treating her
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: like she's a you know, made out of glass when
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: she was fifteen, when she nearly destroyed Tokyo of accident.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: So it's that kind of like there's a thing that
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: I've sort of read about people emotionally stopping development the
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: age become famous, because the second they become famous, people
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: start treating them differently. Yes, and they live in this
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: world where people just they can't actually orientate themselves. And
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: I think Massumi is a picture of that. Its in
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I feel sorry for her, like I mean, the one
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: thing I saw disagree with like just something the art
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: keeps the world alive. The art keeps her alive. It's
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: just you know what I mean. And by doing that,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: you know, and that's some ways beyond the control because
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: people aren't letting her and like you kind of hope
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: they may sue me will grow, you know, but they're
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: not letting it. And that's actually the thing. That's the
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: thing actually And even even as he does it, Ettien says,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: you know what he's doing, and that yeah, I think
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: true love will not you know, never be a grapture'll
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: never be a great artist, and she's never going to
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: have a true love because there's no truth f it.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: But I can't ethically allow her to risk Yeah, and
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: that's that makes it a fucking ass. I mean honestly,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: like when we got the notes back from Katie, like
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Katie's does some very strong words at that scene, but
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: like I sort of get it, like I want people
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: to have responses to the characters and get angry with them,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: or she.
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: Makes me angry.
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: What I was saying it is like it's also very
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: tragic because of everything you just said about how Etienne
• 40:55
  Speaker 6: is keeping her in check. But it's it's still it's
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: it's hard to negotiate both at the same time and
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: ending up with being angry.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's always I think at least that's why
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I made it more about Isabella and the kind of
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: like not more about this is the Blairs, the because
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: if you made the story go just about her, it'd
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: be either kind of oh poor poor MAZOOMI we pissed
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: people off. I think it's like some people I want
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: people to embed on it's Abella because you're more likely
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: to be as Abella. In this world, you've got six
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: and eight billion chances to being a superpower, and you've
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: got one in you know, the six eight billion minus
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: six of being one of these people, right, And I
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: think that's really important to the book as well. So yeah,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I'm like I got one of friends like stn. People
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: have strong opinions about anyone who obviously everyone hates me
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: just but they kind of people come around to major
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: just a bit on Asue five in that them.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: Actually I don't hate them.
• 41:47
  Speaker 6: I actually prefer in all his bullshit and I actually
• 41:51
  Speaker 6: still prefer and maybe that's again that's just my mindset,
• 41:54
  Speaker 6: but I get it, and I don't like you have
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: good reason.
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: It's compelling.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: It's like I think, like there's a whole I wouldn't
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: imagine for me. I feel more pity for Massu me,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: but can I get it as a part of me,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I would look at I hate to be I would
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: hate to be her, not in about in that kind
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: of life and that and then in some ways that's
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: the past ways that kind of almost like would I
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: be any different? Is the reason why I think we
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: kind of come back to it, and that would you know,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: how would I act in this situation and often feel
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: that criticism was autobiography stuff I have strong negative responses to.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I always go, Okay, why why is this really bugging me?
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: I read I wrote the book Realpuly recently and it
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: was like, it's a very high, highly acclaimed book by
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: one of Becky Chambers. I'll mention it because she's a
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: very acclain fancy science fiction novelist. But it was the
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: one about the robot, the monk and the robot story,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: and she, the Lee character, bugged me to death. And
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I kind of really digged through and I sort of
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: realized it's about because I subodly refused this to like
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: I would never quit. I said, I'm not good at quitting.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I'm really very bad at quitting even when I should.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: And the idea, the level of self indulled, just the
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: lead character shows nauseates me, you know.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: What I mean.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: And there's some way you're talking about that reminding me
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: and me feeling about this assume you kind of remind
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: me about that in that how there? Why am I
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: meant to be interested in your you know, your bitter
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: full annoyance that you can't make teeth for people? So
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: in this this book. Yeah, it's so interesting interesting, but
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: yeah it's what for me, it's drama like that kind
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: of eas they complicated people like me. Games of Thrones
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: is a good comparison, like one of the best sort
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: of you just want to say, shake out. I hope
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: that's my kind of hope for it. Like and it's
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: a bit like the Bear as I was wishing about,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: no one cooks, but you know the whole it runs
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: off take that, like imag to Bear everyone has nuclear weapons, like.
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: So funny, North America would be gone.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been over in like two episodes.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: But yeah, miss. How I often describe it in interviews
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: is that imagine if you in five your best bikes
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: had to you'll mess bikes had to live in a
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: shared house and like you had to if you if
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: you had an argu about but who had to clean
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: the fridge? The word end. That's kind of you know,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: that's that's the paraphantasy.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Of not odd exactly on that note, but still talking
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: about Matsumi and Eliza and everyone. We see her praying
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: to someone, right, and then Valentina says she doesn't remember heaven,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: and then Matsumi, I don't know if she's talking to
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: the kaiju or it's just talking to her, but it
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: seems something, it seems to have its own consciousness at
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: the very least. Yes, So there's like there's something else
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: going on, Like we know that these are the atomics.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: We know that. You know that. There Valentina starts it off,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: they all start popping on aping them. But there's something
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: else going on with Valentina, hell bound and Matsumi. Right,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: there's like there's more to it than just and that
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: also has the lead in. I mean, I noticed is
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: getting into it, but like I feel like this has
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: something to do with what the queen is or where
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: she's coming from.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of the stuff the larger metaphysics
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: us use the actual philosophy word again, like you know,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: the higher and lower structure of the universe. It's one
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: of the things I wanted to do is that this
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: universe is a place with set rules, like everything comes
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: from a key change. Like, yes, we've got our magicians
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: and we've got our atomics, we've got higher and lower powers,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: but everything comes from a single point in history and
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: that's where we divulge, and everything kind of originates from
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: that moment where everything changed and I make up the metaphysics.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: So there's a higher realm put we're calling Heaven in
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: quotation marks, and there's a lower realm recording Hell in
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: quotation marks, and everything kind of bubbles up from the
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: interactions between these systems, and there's one timeline between it.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: That's the other thing, as Major explains, So I like
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: to think that the metaphysics holds together, and exploring it
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: is definitely part of the fun. What's the nature of
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: heaven and Hell? Like we kind of put them on
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: the timeline the the Pyramids descent into Hell as issue
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: nine didn't, Yeah exactly, so like we'll probably get some
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: more hell there, but you know, heaven and Hell the
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: classic things in philosophy, Like, yes, there's a reason why.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite comparisons of the book got is
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: the authority meets the Good Place and imagine, like I
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: could see that, you know, because especially I like the
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: good places. You know, it was a show about philosophy,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: but it's also funny showing place it was still a sitcom.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Whilst this is still this is still like an actually
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: superhero comic, but it's also about these ideas and what
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: is good, what is bad? How do these stuff interject
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: how can we make decisions? What is moral? What is ethical?
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: How do we get you know? What do we owe ourselves?
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: And what do we owe the world? So that's what
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: the book's about. I did like one of the and
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: is Cheeddy from the good place? But if you could
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: entirely annihilate all doubt, imagine if Cheedy could turn off
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: his doubt, what would happen? And part he might go from?
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't see him as evil as it.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's the problem. If you can do that, maybe
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: that's you become Maybe without the.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Doubt, he does become evil. Yeah, you know, I'm not
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: I'm looking evil, I think.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, certainly he's only as evil as every world leader.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: That's an awful.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Evils ving alone all the billionaires, you know.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: With the book's really about billionaires and world leaders. And
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: then kind of no one should have this power over people.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Do Now what do we do? That's kind of what
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: the book's about. That was my s g and blessed
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Cotton Socks in the first issue. Just say no, it's
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: the effical thing. We should exist. Unfortunately we do.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: He's and anyways, that, like I said, it's all the
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: bullshit that he's selling that kills me. Then he comes
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: with that, Oh you know what if someone worse than
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: me comes along, what you are the worst one.
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: I gotta help you.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: You've got to make the queen right.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: True?
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: True, true, okay, true, yeah, but it's not imagine like
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: if only only the major existed.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean him being meat bald was you know,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: I was quite happy about that moment.
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: So disturbing.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: I'm glad it disturbed in a good way. It was
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: meant to be like just the you know, it's not
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: much there's no fighting the book, but there's quite a
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: lot of violence, you know, and the fact that we
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: you know, we just it's got live in your head
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: as in the they just the physical the body horror of.
• 48:32
  Speaker 6: The Oh it lives, it lives it, and it has
• 48:35
  Speaker 6: grown vines, and it's in the corner of my mind
• 48:38
  Speaker 6: that is now there and won't go away. Like I know,
• 48:44
  Speaker 6: like there's some people who do things like that because
• 48:46
  Speaker 6: they just like the gory hard.
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: Right, Like they just like just throwing that out there.
• 48:50
  Speaker 6: I that's one of my criticisms of things like the
• 48:52
  Speaker 6: Boys and stuff like that, where it's just like you're
• 48:54
  Speaker 6: just to me you're.
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: Just trying to throw levels of.
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: Excruciating violence at me just to see what you can
• 49:01
  Speaker 6: do and what you can get away with. But obviously
• 49:03
  Speaker 6: for me, there's something the smarter choice is happening here
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: in the power fantasy and like that thought, Like it's like,
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: how do you even come up with a thought of
• 49:14
  Speaker 6: what is the most outlandish way to rip someone from this,
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: you know, this physical plane, but in a way that
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: just does not like you've never seen before, Like what
• 49:25
  Speaker 6: even goes through your mind? Like what like you know what,
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: let's compact them into a ball, Like it's just something
• 49:33
  Speaker 6: beyond my understandings as how to get rid of someone.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: It's interly, I think one of the things that makes
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: the book work or not for people. I'm sure they
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: say it's a really ridiculously well reviewed book, so it's
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: like it's reviewing like that that I could have hoped for.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: But I think the reason why it works for people
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: is can they make the leap too? Because it's not
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: a hyperglory book exactly. It's deliberately but it's about the
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: idea as an if you know, we're going to present
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: this idea of sothing horible and it's going to live
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: with you. And that's that kind of like even people
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: who like embed on the idea that these are real
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: people going to have destroyed the world if you if
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: you buy into the concept, the book really works for people.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: And that's I think it's the hardbits. Oh you want
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: to make the emotional leap across the chasm. It's quite
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Kirkery Garden kind of like I'm going with a lot
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: of philosophy here, so like it's.
• 50:18
  Speaker 6: A philosoph It's a philosophy book at the end of
• 50:20
  Speaker 6: the day, right right.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, like part of it just comes from there's
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: a that's a bit issue six when it was it
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: you seven, Like missume he is talking about how she imagines.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: There's talking about imagining the end of the world and
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: like and what it was like to grow up and
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: sort of imagine that, you know, I know, one day,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know, heavy may tear a continent up and
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I might see that, and that that's what me processing
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: me living a growing in the eighties, and we all
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: kind of imagine nuclear war sane. I mean, like that
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: moment that like if I'm standing here and look over here,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I might see it at a bomb. Then it'll be
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: a'll be over you know, and there's a bit of that.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: But you apply that the idea to superpowers, and then
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: we'll go, okay, what could you do? What would the
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: logical kind of side effects? And with the case of
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: the case of Heavy, he's a gravity control and what
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: would he do? Yeah, and it's like that horrible the
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: idea of just your you know what I mean. This
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: is And of course that's not forget Casper. Lo is
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Casper's choice as well. That's it's not somebody you know,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: he's very very you know. If I did this were
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: a different artist, i' sure it would be much more gory.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: But as it is, it's much more about the ideas
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: and the the playfulness I think, as Casper puts it,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: for all it's kind of smartness, it's also goofy. That's
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: why I quite like the Good Place comparison, you know
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: what I mean.
• 51:37
  Speaker 6: There is some playfulness in there.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: He kicks it off, you know what I mean, like
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: a football, you know, that's you know what I mean,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: that's that's a bit playful.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: But then there's also the other side of it, like
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: where is Heavy from?
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Do you joy?
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Okay? So? Heavy? Okay, yeah, yeah, I wasn't sure on
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: it because it was funny to me that it's like
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: the major who is the most you know, Captain America,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: you know, American superhero in a book about superheroes taken
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: to the extreme gets knocked off immediately, you know, you
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: know most everyone else is besides Heavy And that's my
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: next question too, is you know, not American, But this
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: is you know, superheroes are pretty much an American invention,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and then you know we've done the most of them,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I think, And but this book is not featuring them.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Actually, Elisa is American. She just she just moved to
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: she moved to London. We haven't really revealed that. Yes,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: so there's the reason you would think she was American.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: But I did know something because that was my other question.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Who is Eliza's boyfriend in that scene?
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: It's just a character actually comes up like actually like
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: basically Eliza's backstory is like she seven to night, like
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: actually seven night together, so you get kind of like
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: her where she grew up, like boyfriend who was acting,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: And it's that kind of you know, why they're not
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: dates anymore. It's spoilers ended it stopped dating in eighty nine.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I mean you know, I like, I don't know, if
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: you know, dating is on the.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: It's like Casper sort of like he's drawing that issue
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: at the moment. It's a complete heart and sleeve romance
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: of these kind. So it's like, this is one of
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: the things that you want to introduce the characters is
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: a small way early, even though you say Eliza's weird
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: because she's obviously a major character, but we've done very
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: little with her. So it's become it became a point like, well,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: we've got to kind of just start seeing her stuff,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: and we know that it's important earlier because you know
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: that there is I mean, as she was saying, that's like,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: you know, her tragedy, one of her tragedies that you know,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: she's sold her soul and she's you know, her boyfriend
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: died in nine eighty nine. You know that's the kind
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: and this, you know, and we'll go on that journey together.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: We'll sort of see that and it's you know, it's sad,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just that it's human and awful. It's
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: just awful.
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: I love the laughter.
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: It's funny.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: When I talk about the stuff, I'm always cackling. But
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: it's like you know, I was. So people say when
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: they cry to my work, it's like, well, I'm normally
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: the first person to cry over it because if I
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: have an idea and it upsets.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: Me, I.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: You know, like you emotional, Okay, what what gets me?
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: But you know ware that some stuff just gets you
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: more than it gets other people as well, that you've
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: got your weak spots. But my forlorn bravery is the
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: thing that people doing something where there's no chance of
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: winning and they do it anyway. That always makes me cry. Ultimately,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: what Boxer in Animal Farm when they take Boxer away
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: in the car, like you know, they've worked into the
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: they've worked this horse to the death and now he's
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: too weak to break out the thing because they you
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: know that that really if I'm I'm tearing up now,
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean there's something really just you know, unfairness.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: This is really the world is unfair. We all know this,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: but when you really look at it, it just it's
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: just just distressing.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Anyway, anyway, the parafancy, So I just just because I'm cackling,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: it's like I don't want to get people at the idea.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: It's nothing.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: I joke at things, but I take things very very serious.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: At the same time, the world is ridiculous.
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: I mean, these characters distress you. You've said in various
• 55:07
  Speaker 6: interviews that Liza terrifies you the most for obvious reasons.
• 55:12
  Speaker 6: I we know why, and I could I can understand.
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: There's any character. I mean, Ben and me and I
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: we already talked about who we love, who we hate.
• 55:19
  Speaker 6: Does any character give you any type of joy? But
• 55:21
  Speaker 6: does every character unease you?
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: I love them all, Okay, they all make me uneasy,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: but they also find something funny about them all.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: It's like if the fact he's always walk around with
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: his coffee, that's something that's really funny about that, and
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: he just walks into the same It was always the
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: best dressed man in any like. Honestly, him and his
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: not knowing outfit is solid as well.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: When he shows up to the Matsumi's art, you know,
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: show I love his outfit.
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: I like him if he could dress.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Beard is amazing too.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but Caspar drives Heavy as Heavy is a bit goofy.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: You know the fact that Heavy has had some bad
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: looks over the years that you know when he kills
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: the major what's he wearing.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: His hair in that scene. What the hell it did
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: look like? What are you doing? Bro? That mustache was like, no,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: this is terrible broma.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: The small bits of joy to them, you know, because
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: the people and that kind of like you know, it's you,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: you're living with your mates and it's a flat share
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: that you know, I use. That's the kind of apocalyptic
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: idea just also fun you know what I mean, there's
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: like little the human stuff is work while you're falling
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: in them, and all of them have bits of that.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Even like someone is petrifying and humorous, is a liser,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: like when you when you meet her, there's just some
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: kind of like even though you're going to go to hell,
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: quite mostly it's a scary moment, but like you know,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: it's also quite funny.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Ya know. I think I don't I don't fear her.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: I think she's hilarious, like, but I'm not right, I'm righteous,
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Like that ship is come on.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: She's she's committed to a bit in an awful way.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: It's almost like it's like an extension of various. I mean,
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: like she's obviously my Catholic nonsense mugging me. I'm turning
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: the volume up. Yeah, but I don't know that was.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I don't say too much about lives it just because
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: when when she arrives, she's such a big part of
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: the arc. Like I kind of say, like three of
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: the six issues of about her quototion Max, like even
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: though like we've got a music roototion marks in there
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: also about other people.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: But just imagine her with the slithering voice, and that's
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: why I love her so much.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Like she's basically our cover style that she's
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: the person the alternate artists always want to draw.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: She's in it, which is great. Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah. Okay,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Now there's something else we talked about when we were
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: talking before or when you were here last, when we
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: talked about Die and we talked about how Matt when
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: he's in the fantasy world, he still sees himself as black.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: And so my question is, does Ettien or any of
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: the atomics see their world through the realm of race
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: or gender?
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: I think definitely, like like at some point is going
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: to talk about stuff in a bit more explicitly way
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: about like how his position. I mean, so I think
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: heavy White Dude is more explicitly pushing social revolution than
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean like and doesn't like that.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's one of these questions that what would
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: actually have done if fan Tina said yes or Vantina
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: didn't exist.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: There's kind of like all these kind of questions I
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: hope to be more explicit about eventually in that kind
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: of like Important is basically sure, he believes he has
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: to take the bigger picture right now, but I think
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: there's more going on there as well. I think that's
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: a I think that's probably the best way putting it.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: I think Massumi is narcisstic enough to not necessarily think
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: about race as much as she probably should have, you
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like the fact she's been locked
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: in a little in her little bubble means he doesn't
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: think about stuff as wi as you should.
• 59:02
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: I think Majors is interesting, uh as a as a
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: guy whose family moved to London, uh from I'm just
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: saying which where I forgot wherever we actually decided Indian,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Let's just say Indian, an Indian entire spora. His stuff
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: is especially because he's basically doing like performance Cockney, you know,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: his stuff is interest especially as about class. I think
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff with class and majors as well,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: and how that intersects with England. Yeah, all this stuff
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: in my mind, so I kind of have a bet
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: there's more developed than the page. But I don't find
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: it's interesting. I just say, like you can imagine when
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: asked do you see do you see yourself as black?
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: You can imagine someone asking him that if thro're very brave,
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: they would have to be very fucking brave. I think
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: about it, but yes, and like I think Getan definitely does,
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: and I think it's quite important to him.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: That's interesting because my first thought would be that he doesn't,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: like I think I need to see more. Yeah, because
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: like my first thought is that he doesn't, because he
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: just seems so above it all. But like you said,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: he's looking at the bigger picture right now, and then
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: I guess he'll get to the smaller That goes back
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: to that he feels like a billionaire to me, where
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I get to that eventually, you know. Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: No, No, I think the billionaire of it is very real.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: But I think in some ways the billionaires I'm gonna pause.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: It's not obviously a one for one metaphor, but there
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: is a bit of the fact that I haven't got
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I haven't got time me to actually consider
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: myself as a person. It's a privilege that I do
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: not have right now, which is fucking depressing sentence to say.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: But you know what I mean, I think that's the
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: I think ifact had to say. That isn't that's what
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: he'd probably have to say. But I also think that
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: there's more stuff in the mix there as well, Like
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: I didn't say too much until he actually gets to speak,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: because like when when he actually gets to sort of
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: talk about the word specifically about like what world? You know,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: what he's talking about, Sam, the world, but he doesn't
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: really say what the world he would want it, you know,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: or like what why do you think the world is
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: worth saving? Even you know, like I think is petrifying
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: and also a lot how high is high in zone
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: supply and also emotionally stunted and awful, you know, I
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: forget In is also a tragic character. They all are.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: That's that's what I do. I was thinking this is
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: the way in and that in a different kind of story,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: I think they would all be superheroes because it's possibly
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: because when you ustellitary, you tend to become. In comics,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: you get pushed towards because.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: You is very lex push towards lex.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: The problem of the superhero universe for people of utilitarians,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: and utilitarian doesn't work in Superhero because Superhero is a
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: fundamental model story. Yeah, you know, they believe that it's
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: the right thing to do on something even like like
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: something like the Punisher really believes it's got to really believe,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: you know it. He actually believes that you could just
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: go around shooting people and you won't hit civilians. You know,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: it's not it's just nonsense, you know, but like you
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: know what I mean, So Eten is the one who
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: might have to be a villain, just in the same
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: ay Asavi ends a sort of interesting towards the villain
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: if you carry on right again, But everyone else, at
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: least what their hearts are mostly in the right place. Unfortunately,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: the in a world where power power distorts all level
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: of you know, yeah yeah, yeada. So yeah it's awful. No,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, actually as far as it seriously, because I
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: think he could do lot worse things than he has
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: if he wanted to. Oh that's the patch of things.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: He also reminds me of like any famous musician, because
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: he's someone who gets this power at a very young age.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: And like you said, after that, that's always tell people like, uh,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot has come up of Drake lately,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, dude, became famous at like, you know, nineteen,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: and so it's like that's where it's gonna stop.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 5: That's where you emotionally stopped.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that's where. And I was really talking
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: about Usher recently because I went to Usher concert and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: that's when I was like, oh man, this man is
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: not growing up. But then I had to think that
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: famous at like fourteen years old, right, and like domb
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: famous at that and yeah, like rich, yeah, and so
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: you know, and yes, man after you know, for the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: rest of his life after that. So Atien has that
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: word where he has all the power. He sees everyone's thoughts.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Everyone's could be you know, kissing his ass or just
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: it's like not not even becausing as he knows what
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: they're thinking. So no matter what, he's hearing their bullshit
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: inside their heads. And yeah, I can't imagine it. Like
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: all these characters are very tragic.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: In some way, it's like the opposite, like he does
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: know what people are like, he doesn't live in the
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: bubble at all, who knows what people really thinking? Yeah,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: and that's that's he's actually and you know, missume, he
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: is trapped in the bubble. He's like trapped with Oh no,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: I know every single I know what every single the
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: per person on the plant really thinks of me.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: That's the worst bubble, maybe though, that's like, yeah, yeah, you.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: See, I'm self controlled. Is it the worst bubble?
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Good question? If you make yes, imagine all day constantly
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: you know, like constant updates.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: But I don't think. I don't think much what critics think.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: That's it, you know, like he literally doesn't care what
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: critics think of him because he chose them not to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: care about what they think.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Of me, right, And see that goes back to that
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: emotionally stunned like that goes that goes back to that
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: bubble because once again, like if he's choosing out the
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: care and choosing out there, criticism doesn't matter. Like that's
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: a wild you know, like for like fuck criticism. You know,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: I've got all this power too, and I don't care
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: what you think about it.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 7: Yeah, this dude's I mean, it's so like I would
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 7: love to come back and talk like at the end
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 7: of the second off, you.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Know, because it's like the different because for me, it's
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: like all you know, I said, I know the character.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I also discover the characters writing. It's about like you
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: start when you stop mastering them together, you kind of realize, oh,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: then they would think this, but it's stuff like okay,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: what would then? But it's right in the second Summer
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: of Love, it's like, okay, what is what is that ending?
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: When the world is like they can't really do much
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: and it's like the line of probably will just stop
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: turning people's pain receptors off, so like they can die
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: in peace, you know. That's what I mean. That's kind
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: of like I can't do anything to help. I can
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: just help people, you know, feel as painlessly as possible,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: you know, And that's kind of like and that's quite
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: a good thing, I think. But I didn't realize that
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: until I was writing the scene. Okay, what that em
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: be doing? Because what could he do as well? I
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: guess people can die peacefully. That's all about maybe I
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: can help people connect make her do this. But you
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: know what I mean, that kind of thing is the
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: stuff you discover when writing it, you know, which is
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: why it's fun, you know what I mean, Like at
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: least for me, you know, you get to know his
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: people and you kind of sort of see the delusions
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: you want to take on a journey. For me that
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: all my stories that you've read, Wicktip like Law was
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: like fifty issue journey to become the person she's in
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: the end, you know, And it's like you, this is
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: definitely my catholic stuff, mugging me as in like I
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: kind of you know, heroism is a state you perspire to,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: like it's a state of grace is something you try
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: to achieve, and you know that kind of there's the
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: idea that you know, we learn My story is always
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: about people learning to be different or not in being villains.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: It's like the people who don't learn are the people
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: who are generally crushed upon my stories.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 6: So we'll say, I just again your laugh, it's like
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 6: the knowing laugh and then also like kind of maniacal
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 6: little bit. But I think that's what makes you your
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 6: writing so brilliant because you just allow it to happen,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 6: you know, And what you said earlier just like trying
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 6: to just bring us all home, like what you said
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 6: earlier about you know, how you write those characters or
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 6: when things kind of hit you emotionally.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 5: That you're like, you're probably on the write path. You
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: should include that.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: I think that also just from a creative perspective, you're
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: giving people kind of thoughts of license, like have some courage, right, Like,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 6: the things that scare you the most, the things that
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 6: are different, the things that you are not really well
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: versed in, or the stuff that makes you the most uncomfortable,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 6: perhaps you need to put that in there, right Like,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 6: that's the things that are most compelling. Those are the
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 6: things that give you that actually make you grow more
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 6: as as a person. What they say, you know, you
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 6: keep practicing, you keep doing things that you don't know
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 6: you you jump into the new.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 5: And that's how you get more experienced.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 6: So and I do like that that you you seem
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 6: to take that approach to everything you do. And yeah,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 6: and I think that's very strong and it's also a
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 6: good lesson for other people, just even no matter what
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 6: kind of artists they are.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 5: I just think that that's a good approach.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I said, I think it's the emotional commitment is
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: important and that I kind of say broadly and whatever
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: that means is different for everyone else, and there is
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: it's like kind of you're saying that was reminded me
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: of a line I had Balls say an issue for
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: when introduced him. The whole kind of like the reason
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: why people like Ball is that allows people to sort
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: of see the dark. You know. Ball was somebody who
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: wasn't afraid of like the awful stuff, and of course
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: he actually was, believe all. But but why they liked
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: him as an artist was because, uh just they kind
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: of they could see the terribleness and he was upfront
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: about this is who I am in different ways the fact,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: you know. And bab was always much nicer than he
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: presented himself as well. That was the thing about that.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: That was bub Ball wanted to sort of like intimidate
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: people a bit, and he was the most dutiful, kindest,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: self sacrificion guy in the whole story.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: And that's the pre that you know, all Bowl is
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: a great example of me knowing where character's going and
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: writing it all the way and upsetting me everyone that
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: Bawl's upsetting because he's probably for me. It's like probably
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: the most classically Greek tragedy character in the whole thing.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: He's a hero with a great hubriss or like the
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: fatal flaw, the harmasher, I believe it's called the and
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: the idea, you know, and his is he was my
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: kind of interrogation of masculinity in terms of like, you know,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: your man, you must do, you must be, do these
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: things and live up to these ideals. And in the
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: end he's broken by the inability, you know, be the lie.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: That is that thing we tell people. The other thing
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: about the reason why I cackle, by the way, is
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: that I do know like where ball ends up, you know,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: or I do know like in WICKTIV as a twist
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: and issue thirty three, which changes everything. So to that point,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: I'm always like slightly manical because I'm you know, I'm
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: out of you know, I'm up the timeline and I'm
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: just trying not to say giving the game away, and.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you are so good at that. Though,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: because we did the interview right before no, it was like, well,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to spoil too much of
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: with even though it's all now, but it was right
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: before the Hope returns to the book, I guess, and
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting there talking to you about yo, is there
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: any hope for these characters? And you're you're giving all
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: these answers, you know, and it's speaking all around at all.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: But it was just the way and then like an
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: issue or too later, I'm sitting there like, well, yeah,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: there there's a lot of hope.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: Covering it up, so well, yeah, yeah, a lotos.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: There's a line to put this when I'm signing wictive.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: When I'm signing the first volume, I kind of rekily
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: put it's going to be okay, And that's what I
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: signed all the way from. And that's the close they
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: gave to sort of giving away that it's not quite
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: as bad as it looks. And of course wictives are
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: meditation on the concept of okay in quotation works.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: No, I know, because yeah, I told you before that
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: the book didn't hit me until well, I mean it
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: hit me. I loved it, but I didn't get it,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: you know, until my mother passed. And that's when I
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: really got the book, when I was like, oh, okay,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: it's going to be okay. I get it, you know,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: I get it because I heard that, you know, we
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: talked about before. I heard that so much after she
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: passed you know it's going to be okay, then it's
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: going to be okay, Like fuck, no, it's not. You know,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: it's like, stop fucking lying. And to this day it's
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: not okay, but it's okay, so you know, you get it.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like that's it. So much just comes from what
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: people said and they're thinking about what those words really mean.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: And you know, prettymuch the last year, I remember my
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: dad saying to me, Oh, it's going to be okay.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: I can't help it, it's going to be okay, and
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: my brain going, no, it's not. And you know, and
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: what gives me if you say it's like it's okay
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: and it's not okay and okay. It's a word explains
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: many things, actually makes it anointmare to translate, like the
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: like the French translations are like because okay in English
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: is a world which has so many different meanings means
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: I can do what we do with it, but like
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: other languages don't have the word that does the same thing,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: so the whole it's in a whole. Generally I should
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: actually tell the translators this was actually wicked I have
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: taught me, but like if I ever do it again,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: and a word is that loaded semiotically, I'll tell them.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: I have to tell them, hey, first trade this would
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: just appear important, but it's the whole thing. The whole
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: series hangs off this work.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: Good. Look, all right, well you have survived the interview
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: segment once again. But before you get out of here,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: we do have our rap segment, our rapid fire questions.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: So are you ready? What character's death in any medium
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: struck you the hardest?
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: So let's go back to strike to kids, like, say's
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: go to the ploymal once. I remember where a guy
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: Transformers comics in the UK, a guy called Impactor. Impactor
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: is Transformers yea. He is an original comic. In his
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: original character in Tale two thousand and six, he's basically
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Guy of the Harpoon for a hand who leads the
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: auto bot commandos called the Records Uh. And he gets
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: shot in the last episode as he pushes the lead
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: ex one out the way and gets hit by this
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: complete asshold and he gets shot, and he dies tragically
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: in the arms, saying you always were a wildly old buzzard.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: And then his head flips over and I cried like
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: an fin baby. I was eighteen years old. No, no,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: I wasn't I as much.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Two years.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: And that maybe you know that found really upsetting, like,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: and then he came He came back in a later
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: comic as a zombie and then took eventually like a
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: zombie robot and then he managed to take control of
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: his body again. Uh, and then Trear willpower and then
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: died again because he was that kind of robot you know.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 7: Died failure if you didn't make it.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: He stopped the guy who saved the first time of
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: going into a like a basically just the end of
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: like Star Trek two basically went into a radiation chamber
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: instead of the leader again to turn and died. So
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: like he would just constantly sacrifice himself for the that's thing,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: it's like, you know that kind of stuff getting said
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: heroic sacrifice, Yeah, you know gets every time.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 6: This is what a villa a call a fucking idiot,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 6: Like how many times? Okay, here's another one. If you
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 6: could have a theme song play when you walked into
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 6: a room, what would it be?
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Oh God, I mas, she's just got the Circus theme tune,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: which I think would actually sadly be the right correct
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: energy for me. But I could play for something like cooler,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: but the idea, who is it? Who is this clown?
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's that's hilarious, but again completely throwing people completely
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: after that's not you, what's your choices?
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: That's the same one all the time.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 6: For me, it's Missy Elliott's and it's for a particular reason.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 6: It's Missy Elliott's She's a Bitch, And it's not because
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 6: I feel like I'm a bit or anything like that.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 6: It's because I think it's one of the most hardest
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 6: songs ever, just in terms of the energy, in terms
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 6: of the beat, everything about it is just very it's
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 6: kind of a very domineering type of song. But like
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 6: when you actually get to know me, you're like, oh,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 6: she's cool.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: So yeah, for me, it would be outcast Elevators because
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: I wish i'd walked across. Uh. When I graduated from college,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: they let you choose a song, and I didn't choose anything,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm a DJ, and I was like, oh no,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: don't mean music, you know, And that was like I
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: because it's it's so much cooler than I than I
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: am personally, you know, the song, and so that's just like, yeah,
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: that'd be you know, if I could get that level cool. Yeah,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: that'd be perfect.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if I was talking about your me walking too,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: I marias one thing, but like I'm not like, oh.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 5: It's getting very Spider Man three. I don't know why.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: As soon as I heard that, like walking in like.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: So funny. All right, let's see if you could have
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: anyone superpower, what would it be?
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Shape changing?
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna be like older from starting like misty,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: shape changing.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: Mistaken, you know, like just generally like I just like
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: I just want to be different. It's it's okay, it's
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: kind of gender messiness. I think to get into sex
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: with that. But yeah, that would be the one I picked.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Not an impersonating people way by the way, I stress,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: not the creepy shape change. I was gonna say that
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: would be unethical to quote.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: Something just just the the quote Heavy, just the freaky
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: sex ship. You know, That's what that's like.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: Liking characters like Heavy. Is that as an oh, of course,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: as we're you know, the fact that's make the breakfast
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: seeing hilarious and oh no, what we wondered about the
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: weird sex stuff, you know what I mean? That's that Shi,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: It's fun.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: I don't like Heavy but out of everyone besides her,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: he's probably my favorite. I just feel like he's just
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's like I love you know, like that
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: was one of my That was probably the first mom
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: when I fell in love with the book was when
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: he got blasted by the laser and then immediately put
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: the joint back in his mouth. Heavy. I can understand,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I can relate. I can relate to man right.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: There, when Caspar added the floating splift to charactersiety, that's it.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: You got it, You've absolutely got it.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: I was like, I relate to this man right here.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: And then you also said something about how gravity powers
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: are unused enough in comics. And there was a Gravitan
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: he fought the West Coast Avengers and and there you
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: know that, you know that right, And he terrified me.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: And he was talking about like the four fundamental four
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: forces of nature atomic yeah, And I was like, yo,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: this ship this you know. And so when you said that,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, nah, he's right, and gravity is a
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: monster if you know what you're doing with it, Like
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: that's you know, that's a power. Yeah.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: I think someone's my mind because I read him that
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: comic as a kid. American comics. I read that one.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: I was like, this guy's really interesting, and then of
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: course I discovered when I get back into it, oh
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: he's a random nobody.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: It's like, but he wrecked the West in that issue,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: like wrecked with no problem.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 6: Gremedy power is actually very terrifying me, like you're on
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 6: Jupiter all the time. Uh, towards your first geek crush.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'll go to the one that was
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: immediately in my mind, even though it's not quite like
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: I think. I think that generally your first answer is
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: the best answer. Yes, Commander mccaro, who was in a
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: what's it called Starfleet, which is like a French Japanese
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: puppet show and it's basically a load of puppet like.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: She was the evil leader and she had like a
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: very cool helmet, Jamie. This is also Jamie mckelvey's first cross,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: I think, and a helmet and a little man's eye
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: if a man's face is an eye patch like this,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: which could occasionally speak itself, so honestly prototypical Eliza hell
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: bound now I think about it, and that kind of
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: that very sang ti is that the right word, Like
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: that level of slightly distant aggressive cool woman and it's like, yep,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: that's certainly one of my times scary I could I
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: could do that.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Dark Phoenix was one of my first ones. I
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: fully agree with that right there, like yeah slightly, you
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: know Dark is crushing Colossus with her hand, where I
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know, do.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 4: That to me, treak me the broccoli people, all right.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: Star Wars are star trek.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: Star Wars is give me more money. So they've paid.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: They've paid for some food, and that means that was
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: the best. Actually, I think it's Star Wars anyway. I
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: mean I trust I like them both of the wise,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But like Star Wars was
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: my first don't like, my first entry into nerd world.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: It was Star Wars. The first movie our star was Empire,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So, like the whole all
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: of that area is very formative.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 6: Okay, there's gonna be the last or second or last
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 6: name something that you love that most people don't could
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 6: be like a movie, food, a person, ye during anything.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: Myself, No, I don't love myself.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: I think people like you and.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: Some people on the internet, you'll be surprised. Uh, there's God,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: I cuddenly thought my life is entirely like all my
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: tastes utterly banal uh. I really answered this question. That's hilarious,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: like i'matinally half the terrible music. I really like, like mhm,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: what's really bad? And I like, so I've got to
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: go quite low down the scalecus. I'm thinking a lot
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: of people like that, but in reality, most people don't
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: like that. I see, you know, It's like it's like Jering.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: I remember playing me and my wife johnn some who
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: were you know, both big fans of and we had
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: a music over the dinner table or the dinner section
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: our wedding. So we're playing that and of course you know,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: oh over half. I remember when of my names were saying,
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: what's this interesting music? Cut? People like Jonah Newsom, but
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: like let's say joining Newsom because someone can't go and
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: listen to him.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, what is your favorite superhero movie of all time? Oh?
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: This is some one of those questions I always I
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: always cheat on, you know what I mean, because I
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: will say, like people say superhero movie, and I'll probably
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: say the Incredibles. I think I know me in a
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: comic book movie. Then I go ITCHI the Killer you
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: know what I mean, I will deliberately bounce on the question.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, those are both two great answers. YEA movies.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: I think the Incredibles if there were a classic supero movie,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: I think the Incredibles are great. I still haven't watched
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: this Into the Spot. I haven't watched the second Into
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: the Spider Verse, and it was so good, you know
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: what I mean. Like I watched that and it was
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: like I have a pretty hard you know, really genuinely strong,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: but you know, everything, everything everywhere. It wants to superhero
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: movie in a real way. It uses the grammar of
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: the form. That is a mind blowing movie and humbling.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: I think R is a superhero movie.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: I've seen it.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 5: Oh god, please watch it.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah it's still on Netflix.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah it's on the list. Definitely. It's like kind of
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: a yeah free world.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah I get it, but yeah that is. And it's
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: a three hour movie, so it's it takes its time.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 5: But you don't feel it.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: You don't feel that. No, it's so good. I've seen
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know four or five six times. Yeah watching it. Yeah,
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: that's a great one. All right.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 6: So that is the end of the rap. Thank you
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 6: so much. Karen, you were fantastic. You're so funny. I
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 6: think this is the longest I've gotten to talk to
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 6: you and and just be able to just kind of
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 6: probe probe your thoughts about how you create. And I
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 6: think it has been really good. Can you please let
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 6: them know what they could find you. They can find
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 6: your work and anything else you want to plug.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: Well personally, thank you. I'm usually enter my name k
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: I E r O N space G I double L
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: E N into any search engine of your choice and
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: you'll find me. Like the best place is my newsletter,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: which is on buttoned down follow that I every week
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: or so I'll send you essays and what's out to
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: what's new and links to everywhere else and on blue
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: Sky socially, where I'm mainly posting nonsense, I do bad puns.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: I'm still at the moment On Instagram. My Instagram stories
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: are mainly about me posting baking because I've started baking
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: a lot, though they were very rude about my icing
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: on the internet.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: Watching a lot of baking shows off.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: I don't watch them because I think the aforementioned lack
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: of time, but I do enjoy it when I can.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: That's basically my newsletter is the best place and links
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: to everywhere. If you like the para fantasy, there's a
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: paraphancy prime where I did, which is uh, it's length
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: in you it's bit dot l y slash the Power
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: Fantasy and that's like fifty one pages of preview offs
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: or introduce introductions to the story and links the way
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: to buy it and all that and act she also
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: links to all our socials so like on the on
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: the trailer. So it's actually a really nice thing. So
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: if you're interested, all go not and thank.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: You and no, thank you very much. Man. It's always
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you here. And you know, to
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: hear that you enjoyed Hendrix is uh you know that
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: that made my year, So thank you so much for that.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: I'd love to talk to you more about it whenever
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: you have time, but you know, for now, we'll definitely
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: have you back around for the second arc or so
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: so we can definitely talk more about this book. And
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: for everyone else, thank you for joining us. We'll be
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: back soon with another episode of for All Nerds and
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: for an hour out of here.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 5: Hey what's up?
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 6: Internet's in a fan fam This is Tati and the
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 6: King for for All All Nerds, and I want to
• 1:23:57
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• 1:24:00
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