Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / Future Proof Your Family: Financial Agreements, Co-Parenting & Blended Families with Lawyer Jane Libbis

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Future Proof Your Family: Financial Agreements, Co-Parenting & Blended Families with Lawyer Jane Libbis · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:04
  Liz Walton: Welcome to the Home of Fertility, a space for real conversation and expert insights about fertility, healing, and creating family.
• 0:15
  Liz Walton: I'm Liz Walton.
• 0:17
  Helen Zee: And I'm Helen Z.
• 0:18
  Helen Zee: We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey.
• 0:24
  Helen Zee: Emotionally, physically, and spiritually.
• 0:28
  Liz Walton: We talk about it all.
• 0:29
  Liz Walton: Fertility treatment, holistic support, relationships, mindset, and the emotional highs and left.
• 0:38
  Helen Zee: Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.
• 0:49
  Liz Walton: We are so glad you are here.
• 0:52
  Liz Walton: Let's dive in.
• 0:58
  Helen Zee: Welcome, listeners, to a very special episode today.
• 1:02
  Helen Zee: And one that you think might be out of the box.
• 1:06
  Helen Zee: But while we have this conversation, and by the end of it, I know that you're going to agree with me that it is a very important conversation to consider when we are family planning.
• 1:18
  Helen Zee: We are joined by family lawyer Jane, who creates a supportive compassionate environment for her clients, navigating separation and new beginnings.
• 1:29
  Helen Zee: She advises on all areas of family law from property, parenting, and prenuptial agreements.
• 1:36
  Helen Zee: Jane combines her legal counseling backgrounds to help clients move forward with clarity and confidence in their next chapter.
• 1:46
  Helen Zee: And in today's important conversation, we are going to be talking about love and future planning.
• 1:54
  Helen Zee: So couples get the information that they need before they start to grow their family.
• 2:00
  Helen Zee: Welcome, Jane.
• 2:02
  Jane Libbis: So great to be here, Helen.
• 2:04
  Jane Libbis: Thank you for having me.
• 2:05
  Helen Zee: Same, same.
• 2:06
  Helen Zee: Well, let's let's tap into this first question of um uh part of the introduction, and that is with the family law background and you have, as well as the counseling and uh the compassionate nature that I know that you give people who you work with, why is it so important that conversations about family planning and tying them in legally is pivotal for consideration for people?
• 2:42
  Jane Libbis: So I think this is something that I've come to see more and more, and to realize that as family lawyers, we are in a gifted position because we get to see what undoes, unfortunately, many relationships and where the hot button issues can be for couples.
• 2:58
  Jane Libbis: And so it's made me really mindful that it would be very powerful for people if some of these issues, particularly from a legally binding perspective, issues around money, if they could have conversations around what the changes to the family lifestyle will be when the child comes along before the child comes along.
• 3:17
  Jane Libbis: What's really prompted me to get into this conversation lately is some beautiful clients that I've been working with who are having babies later in life when they've amassed assets of their own and significant careers of their own, and they're so excited about becoming mums, but they're also really worried about what that's going to mean for them financially, and they're wanting to know they're going to be financially secure in the event that their relationship should break down.
• 3:42
  Jane Libbis: That was a long-winded answer to the question, Helen.
• 3:45
  Helen Zee: That is a brilliantly winded answer to the question.
• 3:49
  Helen Zee: Because for the person listening to this, I am sure that they are nodding their head and going, that little thought that just seeds that comes and goes and comes and goes can grow bigger and bigger.
• 4:04
  Helen Zee: And then we try and shove it down and going, oh no, no, I'm in I'm in a big period of growth.
• 4:12
  Helen Zee: I can't think like this.
• 4:13
  Helen Zee: I'm going to jinx myself or I'm going to razz it or muck it up, and I've got negativity.
• 4:22
  Helen Zee: And what we're doing is we actually gaslight ourselves as opposed to these are um uh in our sovereignty, these are the things that are coming up for us to be able to address and also find ways to lovingly bring these conversations to the table, not shove them away in the hope that it's never going to be dealt with.
• 4:48
  Jane Libbis: Because these kinds of worries for people can really fester so that they can become far bigger than they need to be if they're addressed at the beginning.
• 4:59
  Jane Libbis: Um and particularly, I think, for people, I mean, this is equally applicable to somebody wherever they are age-wise in their fertility journey.
• 5:07
  Jane Libbis: But I think the older you are and the more you may have amassed, and the more identity you're you're deriving from your career and your wealth and all those factors.
• 5:16
  Jane Libbis: Um I think it's really important for them to understand that you kind of you can have both.
• 5:22
  Jane Libbis: You can have the beautiful motherhood dream, but you can also be keeping your other identity safe and secure.
• 5:30
  Helen Zee: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:31
  Helen Zee: Well, I can certainly relate to that being a uh I became a mother in my early 20s, and so I was shaping my identity around my family.
• 5:44
  Helen Zee: Uh uh career was growing alongside that, but I gave up a lot of personal power over the 19-year relationship, um, which ended up in divorce.
• 6:00
  Helen Zee: So I've been on that tail end, and I know what you're talking about here from a personal experience as well, Jane.
• 6:07
  Helen Zee: What you're doing is reverse engineering.
• 6:10
  Helen Zee: That's actually that's the word that's coming to me is I like that, yeah.
• 6:15
  Helen Zee: Reverse engineering.
• 6:17
  Helen Zee: And I, for one, you know, being through it, uh there are a lot of assets and and an identity that needs to get reformed after, and sometimes it can take a really, really long time, which actually was the case in my experience.
• 6:34
  Helen Zee: It took quite a long time to get back up and raise children as uh young teenagers um with limited resources.
• 6:44
  Helen Zee: So I'm all for this conversation.
• 6:49
  Helen Zee: Let's continue.
• 6:50
  Helen Zee: Yes.
• 6:51
  Helen Zee: My friend, what kind of challenges do you see in the fertility journey or in family uh planning that don't go as expected?
• 7:03
  Jane Libbis: I think I see a few things actually.
• 7:06
  Jane Libbis: I sometimes I've seen first of all, the woman who wants to have a child and maybe settles for having it with somebody that may not be the ideal because they're there.
• 7:18
  Jane Libbis: Um so so sometimes it's the finding the person or deciding to take the journey alone, right?
• 7:23
  Jane Libbis: There's that.
• 7:24
  Jane Libbis: Um, but then I think it's also and again, I have seen this several times.
• 7:29
  Jane Libbis: It is that fear.
• 7:30
  Jane Libbis: I keep coming back to this because it's really the thing that has struck me.
• 7:34
  Jane Libbis: It's that fear of how I'm how am I how am I going to afford this?
• 7:39
  Jane Libbis: And and so therefore, do I want it?
• 7:42
  Jane Libbis: And what's this going to mean for me in terms of backing down in my career, not only in terms of kind of status and passion and power, but also in terms of dollars and what happens if I take Matt Leave and you know the income is different for that period.
• 7:58
  Jane Libbis: You know, these kinds of worries start to chip away at people, which I imagine, um, because I know that you work with the health and the energy and the mindset, I imagine if that's festering underneath, that's not going to help you be in the most fertile of spaces either, right?
• 8:14
  Helen Zee: Absolutely.
• 8:15
  Helen Zee: That it comes through in in my sessions with clients and with couples when we start to unpick it, we then start to realize what is living underneath these fears.
• 8:26
  Helen Zee: And uh I was actually just sharing this with a uh a client on the weekend.
• 8:35
  Helen Zee: So uh I normally don't work on the weekend, but with so much going on, I actually opened up a position on a Sunday morning.
• 8:43
  Helen Zee: Absolutely love this couple.
• 8:46
  Helen Zee: I've been working with them for a little while.
• 8:48
  Helen Zee: And what we started to uncover was that uh, you know, the the acronym of fear of the false evidence appearing real.
• 8:55
  Helen Zee: And I like that.
• 8:57
  Helen Zee: Yeah, so false evidence appearing real.
• 9:00
  Helen Zee: And so for this particular couple, putting a glass ceiling on some of the expectations that they had and how to navigate and dance around that, that was spending a lot of energy in that little glass container, as opposed to just flipping the lid, going over the top, having a look down, and then actually seeing what is possible.
• 9:29
  Helen Zee: And when we were able to look at each other, hold hands with one another when we're having these big conversations, there is a resonance that happens that can actually, through what we call heart coherence, brings that frequency um into a bandwidth.
• 9:50
  Helen Zee: So the person that might be really high up on that bandwidth and frequency of so anxious of what they want to say, and that other person that is in absolute inertia, where the conversation won't go very far, but when we're actually bringing that into that bandwidth and we're able to see with our whole body and hear with our whole body, we're able to come up with a lot of solutions, right?
• 10:18
  Helen Zee: Well, I love that.
• 10:19
  Helen Zee: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:20
  Helen Zee: Right.
• 10:20
  Helen Zee: And so then where do we go?
• 10:22
  Helen Zee: Do we put it on a piece of paper?
• 10:23
  Helen Zee: Do we have little silent whispers because on the on the couch or the bedroom or halfway during the night?
• 10:33
  Helen Zee: I feel that's where you come into it, where those beautiful vows and promises can be the glue that that you're both working towards and raising your family on a value template that the two of you create and can actually put it into a process in a system that is supported.
• 10:58
  Jane Libbis: Absolutely.
• 10:58
  Jane Libbis: And in fact, there's sort of two ways that we're able to do that.
• 11:03
  Jane Libbis: One is the traditional and common legal method of what we call a binding financial agreement, cohabitation agreement, prenuptial agreement, all of these things are thrown around.
• 11:12
  Jane Libbis: Um, and that's something that is legally binding and that really does relate to what's going to occur financially, sometimes during the course of the relationship, but where it really comes into its own is that it's binding in the event that separation unfortunately should occur, that the relationship ends.
• 11:27
  Jane Libbis: And you can really provide then for the way that assets would be divided.
• 11:31
  Jane Libbis: And that can often mean, and I've experienced it recently, as I said, with these older sorts of mums in particular, where there's a bit of a rebalancing of what's been perceived to have been lost while they've also been giving in a different space in the parenting space.
• 11:44
  Jane Libbis: And we're also working separately on a product that's around helping couples, not in a binding way, but in a really thoughtful way, to consider all of the numerous things that are going to arise in their relationship around, you know, interference of in-laws or what are our expectations around celebrations together?
• 12:02
  Jane Libbis: Basic things that come about in the flow of life that we see as family lawyers can cause a relationship breakdown.
• 12:08
  Jane Libbis: And we're working on productizing that such that people can really work on that and put that kind of to bed.
• 12:14
  Jane Libbis: As you said, the quiet whispers always isn't on a piece of paper.
• 12:16
  Jane Libbis: But so that they've really started to think about these things in advance.
• 12:20
  Jane Libbis: But primarily, um, the thing that I most really want to anchor for people is around the binding financial agreement and the really locking in and the putting to bed of those financial concerns that often come up for people.
• 12:33
  Helen Zee: I love that.
• 12:34
  Helen Zee: That is brilliant.
• 12:36
  Helen Zee: And I feel adding to that in the the product that you are creating as well is blended families.
• 12:45
  Helen Zee: Absolutely.
• 12:46
  Helen Zee: Second relationships, third relationships, like children increased complexity, yes.
• 12:52
  Helen Zee: That's right.
• 12:53
  Helen Zee: And then you've got a brand new partnership, and you're wanting to create a family with with your uh new partner.
• 13:01
  Helen Zee: Uh how people have may have been burnt through their other relationships and not wanting to make those um uh or be exposed to those same situations and make those mistakes.
• 13:16
  Helen Zee: Again, I'll call them mistakes for ease of reference.
• 13:21
  Helen Zee: But I also know that when people are coming together and they've had relationships and they've got children to those other relationships, you don't come in fully with an open heart.
• 13:34
  Helen Zee: There's some reservation as well.
• 13:36
  Helen Zee: Absolutely in these situations, and so you're basically um you can basically go in with one clipped wing because you're like really wanting to extend going forward, but you're also using a lot of energy, squirreling yourself back because you're worried about all these other things that are wanting to happen.
• 13:58
  Helen Zee: So I'm saying let's not get tripped up with blind faith.
• 14:03
  Helen Zee: Let's take it out, let's have the conversations, and there are beautiful ways that we can do that in very empowering ways.
• 14:12
  Helen Zee: And they're so it's so liberating, isn't it, Jane?
• 14:16
  Jane Libbis: Absolutely.
• 14:16
  Jane Libbis: To be able to name it, address it, put a bow on it to some extent, and hope that you never have to get there, but that you've already thought about it.
• 14:24
  Jane Libbis: It's a bit like, you know, um I and a number of my friends have it have some experiences currently in the aged care space, right?
• 14:31
  Jane Libbis: And it's around, you know, you think about the end of life decisions for your loved ones, etc., your advanced care directive.
• 14:37
  Jane Libbis: It's almost like an advanced care directive for your relationship, right?
• 14:40
  Jane Libbis: This is thinking about if the worst should happen, this is what we're going to do to keep things okay between us and for us individually.
• 14:48
  Jane Libbis: And I think, you know, I love that you kind of go off on the tangent somewhat of the this the blended families, because of course that is a whole separate conversation we could be having, isn't it?
• 14:57
  Jane Libbis: And I'm really mindful of that sometimes with my clients, where kind of everybody's got mum and dad have repartneled with people who also have their own kids, whose exes might have also repartneled with people who have their own kids, and it's this kind of ripple effect.
• 15:12
  Jane Libbis: And really thinking about how are things going to be ideally in each household so that there's some sort of congruence congruence between the kids as well.
• 15:21
  Jane Libbis: And you know, we're not having you know, um baked beans here and champagne here kind of thing, and you know, and there's a a flow of life for the children, so that there's also not a kind of a jealousy between step siblings, and you know, my god, it's that's that's a whole other conversation, isn't it?
• 15:37
  Jane Libbis: But yeah, you've seen me on a tangent.
• 15:40
  Helen Zee: I know I'm sorry, but there's so much to explore here because there is ultimately what it comes down to is having the big conversations that weigh on people's shoulders where they can be put down, like you said, and put a bow on it, and then you can sleep easy.
• 16:01
  Helen Zee: You can go and you can just continue raising your family with the core values that the two of you bring into your family and into your relationship.
• 16:11
  Helen Zee: And it's not also about what is might happen, but it's also the progressive planning, like what happens with career planning and financial planning when one parent needs to step back.
• 16:27
  Helen Zee: Um, I know that current laws and parental laws in Australia um, you know, are changing where you can have the parental leave, which is uh I'll just call it maternal and paternal leave, where both people can take leave in that year period.
• 16:49
  Helen Zee: And so how do those sure it's about telling your workplace and sure it's about saying this is how much money we're going to be having for that particular year to manage what we need to manage, but it actually extends to be a lot deeper than that, doesn't it, Jane?
• 17:06
  Jane Libbis: Yes, absolutely it does.
• 17:08
  Jane Libbis: Yes, yes, and I think actually it's if people are able to tap into the support that somebody like you can give, the counseling support, the really heart-centered support as a kind of breaking open of the hard shell of diving into these conversations, to get that flowing and to then be able to couple that with going, all right, we've had these thoughts.
• 17:30
  Jane Libbis: Now it's really crystallized for me in terms of what I'm wanting life to look like around those big picture decisions, to then flow into seeing a lawyer around, okay, I want to enter into a financial agreement that locks this down.
• 17:43
  Jane Libbis: But it's really important, I think, that those conversations are had in a really safe space.
• 17:49
  Jane Libbis: And so for me, I love being able to work with somebody like you in helping couples be scaffolded, as we say these days, in in having those conversations in a way that honors not just the practical and the wham-bam of, okay, if we separate, I want this much of your super, but actually this is why.
• 18:07
  Jane Libbis: And these are drilling down right to these are my fears, my values, my interests and goals.
• 18:12
  Jane Libbis: This is what my worry is.
• 18:14
  Jane Libbis: How can we together help address that balance?
• 18:17
  Helen Zee: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 18:19
  Helen Zee: And what I love is that you're bringing it to the everyday person because you know, you we can appreciate that when we see big businesses and people that might be in the spotlight, etc., uh, and we know that they're getting married, we kind of accept that they've got these really big strong prenups, right?
• 18:45
  Helen Zee: And agreements, etc.
• 18:47
  Helen Zee: But you're making this available to everyone.
• 18:53
  Jane Libbis: Yes, and it's important for everyone.
• 18:55
  Jane Libbis: It's to some extent, it's even more important if you're not talking massive dollars, because every dollar is worth so much more when there are fewer of them.
• 19:01
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 19:02
  Jane Libbis: Um and and the worries are absolutely, well, the same, but really amplified.
• 19:08
  Jane Libbis: Because again, if you're talking about basically, am I going to be able to afford a house, as opposed to will I be able to afford another mansion on the north shore of Sydney or something, you know, it's a really important conversation to have.
• 19:19
  Jane Libbis: It's a huge worry.
• 19:20
  Jane Libbis: It is.
• 19:21
  Jane Libbis: Which of course is not to dismiss the worries of those people with greater levels of wealth either.
• 19:26
  Jane Libbis: Of course.
• 19:27
  Jane Libbis: But yes, bringing it back to people who are the typical everyday family, absolutely, it's just as much important for them.
• 19:34
  Helen Zee: Absolutely.
• 19:35
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 19:36
  Helen Zee: And having these conversations and also in your experience of setting up agreements, would you agree that it actually can strengthen a relationship?
• 19:51
  Jane Libbis: Very much so, because there's a real value in like it's like getting in, and you were talking before we started recording about gardening, right?
• 20:00
  Jane Libbis: I feel like it's like getting in and you're tilling the soil together, and you're really you're planting the seeds together for what is going to grow in terms of your family.
• 20:09
  Jane Libbis: Um, and I think there's a lot to be gained for that rather than, as you also mentioned, the kind of the blind, you know, the leap of faith, let's just do this.
• 20:17
  Jane Libbis: But to actually think, oh, okay, we're talking through this, and I'm hearing what you're saying, and you're hearing what I'm saying, and together we can make this okay for both of us.
• 20:27
  Jane Libbis: I think that's very empowering.
• 20:29
  Jane Libbis: And and conversely, I've seen situations where through that process it becomes clear that a couple's not on the same page.
• 20:37
  Jane Libbis: And that can lead to a very different conversation as well.
• 20:39
  Jane Libbis: And if that's a conversation that needs to be had, it's better to have it sooner than later, really.
• 20:44
  Helen Zee: Absolutely.
• 20:45
  Helen Zee: Yeah, I 100% agree with you.
• 20:48
  Jane Libbis: No, that's not the aim of it, but but isn't it, isn't it better to know now if your life values are going to be actually splintered?
• 20:54
  Jane Libbis: Well, you might need to take a new look, right?
• 20:57
  Helen Zee: If your life values are going to be splintered, and I can see that sometimes when I do experience that through through the fertility uh work that I do as well in supporting couples.
• 21:10
  Helen Zee: And we just see that sometimes bringing a family forward or trying to bring a family forward can create, can really show the chasm that is involved.
• 21:21
  Helen Zee: That's absolutely in the that has existed in the background.
• 21:26
  Helen Zee: And these are just the this is just the this just prefaces what's been there for quite a while.
• 21:32
  Helen Zee: So yeah.
• 21:34
  Jane Libbis: I have this this is not entirely on topic, but I did work with this couple once, and it I've always struck with me that the husband said he really would love to have a locked room for when he was watching the football so that she couldn't come in, which is maybe actually every man's dream or many man's dream.
• 21:50
  Jane Libbis: But I it's really stuck with me because she was quite aghast when he said that.
• 21:55
  Jane Libbis: And there's kind of a little thing, but in the context of that relationship, I think that kind of other started to create some other ripples of conversations that needed to be had, right?
• 22:04
  Jane Libbis: And obviously that didn't directly relate to their financial agreement, which we were working on, but it's a conversation that came up.
• 22:10
  Jane Libbis: And that's the other thing.
• 22:11
  Jane Libbis: If you if you start this process from the opposite direction, if perhaps you're listening and you're somebody that may have already engaged a lawyer and you're working on a financial agreement, I would encourage those people to be really mindful of the other issues that come up that are not related to money, that absolutely may well need to be addressed with the likes of you, Helen, um, and other people who are in the counseling space, so that you're also honoring, hey, life is not just about the dollar, it's about the heart, it's about the energy.
• 22:37
  Jane Libbis: If I'm hearing things as in the course of, you know, or if your conduct of not thinking about what my needs might be post-separation are making me worry about, you know, other values, go and have that addressed as well.
• 22:49
  Jane Libbis: Do not think, oh, well, I won't worry about that.
• 22:51
  Jane Libbis: We're just dealing with our financial agreement now, because it goes so much together, doesn't it?
• 22:56
  Helen Zee: It really does.
• 22:57
  Helen Zee: Um, finances is just another way of exchanging energy.
• 23:01
  Helen Zee: So true, right?
• 23:04
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 23:05
  Helen Zee: And where you were talking about the man who requested having a locked room to watch the football, in the work that I do, you know, with with couples, that can be a healthy request.
• 23:21
  Helen Zee: For sure.
• 23:22
  Helen Zee: If it yeah, so so we were talking before coming on about uh healthy masculine, feminine, and and we were talking about pottering, pottering around the garden and pottering around the house, which is one way of uh being being in a female's body, but that's one way of active meditation, which literally just takes just takes the pebbles, takes the weight off the shoulders.
• 23:52
  Helen Zee: And so when I was gardening this morning, what was coming through for me was before gardening, I was tending to the weight of my shoulders, and I felt a lot lighter, moving, shifting, culling, pulling, whatever I was doing.
• 24:06
  Helen Zee: And so coming back to that about what we need, like women, in essence, are like part of what we do is the pottering is so important, it actually brings us back into our body and into our equilibrium.
• 24:24
  Helen Zee: And for males, you know, we say the thing about the men'shed or going out into the garage, that's because quite innately a man's got a single point focus, and that is the way that they get they they pottering for us and for the males, it's actually single point focus.
• 24:44
  Helen Zee: So if they can whittle at something or do something that actually focuses their vision, that is a way that they get back to themselves, and watching sports does that, and a lot of people don't realize that, and we're just like, oh, here you go again.
• 25:04
  Jane Libbis: You spend yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:05
  Jane Libbis: You go again.
• 25:06
  Jane Libbis: It's even my instinct when I heard this guy say it.
• 25:08
  Jane Libbis: Right, his and his future wife's instinct as well.
• 25:11
  Jane Libbis: But I think that's so beautiful that you're raising that, Helen, and and absolutely, and to to kind of extrapolate, you've got me excited about this now because to extrapolate, how fantastic if they were able to have that conversation and for her to really deeply understand that this wasn't about, you know, get out of my space love, but it was about let me drop back into myself in my own way.
• 25:31
  Helen Zee: Absolutely.
• 25:32
  Helen Zee: It is a way that many people use sport and watching sport and being focused on an outcome because that's the natural tendency of a male, is providing solutions.
• 25:46
  Helen Zee: They love pro problems, providing solutions.
• 25:49
  Helen Zee: Um yes, I'm talking heteronormative here, my friends.
• 25:52
  Helen Zee: I am yes, that is true.
• 25:54
  Helen Zee: We've both been doing that.
• 25:55
  Helen Zee: I I I get that, I understand that, but I'm coming from the lens of living in in uh uh with our masculine traits and also living with our feminine traits, so yes, which can apply uh equally regardless of gender.
• 26:12
  Jane Libbis: We both we both genders have traits of those.
• 26:15
  Helen Zee: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 26:17
  Helen Zee: So from yes, I come from a heteronormative space, it's just my natural language speaking in this way, but I feel like the people listening will understand that definitely.
• 26:27
  Jane Libbis: Well, yeah, and I guess to overtly go back to the topic that I was discussing before, of course, that imbalance and the parenting co the parenting imbalance, etc., can be absolutely the same and is the same in a same-sex relationship, it's the same sacrifices or preferences that one parent's making over the other, right?
• 26:45
  Jane Libbis: Absolutely.
• 26:46
  Jane Libbis: And I think I was being heteronormative about that too, but of course it applies equally in same-sex relationships.
• 26:51
  Helen Zee: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:51
  Helen Zee: It's the same dance.
• 26:52
  Helen Zee: It's absolutely the same dance.
• 26:55
  Helen Zee: Um, yeah.
• 26:56
  Helen Zee: Well, my friend, when families do face change, whether it's separation, children, or even pets, I'd really love to speak about pet and pet custody as well.
• 27:09
  Helen Zee: What is what are the most um important steps that parents can take to protect the emotional and financial well-being of the family?
• 27:21
  Helen Zee: Beautiful question.
• 27:22
  Helen Zee: So reverse engineering we will speak about.
• 27:26
  Jane Libbis: I guess, uh, but you're talking now around what happens if if this if if there is separation, right?
• 27:31
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 27:32
  Jane Libbis: So I guess the first thing that I would say around that is to acknowledge that it's a significant life event.
• 27:38
  Jane Libbis: It's not a legal event.
• 27:39
  Jane Libbis: Um, and whereas I would encourage people to seek legal advice so that they can understand the way that that works, because it may be that their spouse will go off and understand the way that it works.
• 27:50
  Jane Libbis: The first thing that I would encourage is a beautiful support network and to consider your own counseling and your own outlet for dealing with the inevitable motion emotions that will arise.
• 28:00
  Jane Libbis: Um, and and that will also, of course, then stand you in good stead to bolster and foster whatever's going on for the children to be able to keep yourself strong for them.
• 28:10
  Jane Libbis: Um, the other thing that I would suggest is that when it comes to discussing time that children might spend with parents, I also always encourage our clients to speak to one of our network of psychologists that do that work because they're well placed to come from the social sciences space of what are actually the needs of these particular children, understanding their personalities and so on.
• 28:31
  Jane Libbis: I mean, that the legal principle, anyway, is always around the best interest of the child because that's what everybody wants, right?
• 28:37
  Jane Libbis: That's what the parents want.
• 28:38
  Jane Libbis: That's also what the law wants.
• 28:39
  Jane Libbis: Um, so it's really also then about tuning into and trying to move through your own kind of sometimes sense of possession of these are my children, to remembering these are little beings who love their parents both equally and need to have an opportunity to have whatever kind of relationship is safe and healthy for them with each parent.
• 28:58
  Jane Libbis: To be really mindful of that and to be really mindful of not denigrating the other parent to the children, because as we know, there's a little sense for that little person of you're you're being critical of half of me.
• 29:10
  Jane Libbis: Yeah, this person is in me.
• 29:11
  Jane Libbis: If you're being really critical of who they are and everything about them, that impacts that might make me feel that you're thinking the same things about me.
• 29:18
  Jane Libbis: So it's really try to keep things, and it's hard sometimes when you're in the pain and the grief and the anger, depending on what's caused your relationship, it's hard to do that.
• 29:27
  Jane Libbis: I'm not saying it's easy, but it's really important to take a really child-focused approach.
• 29:32
  Jane Libbis: Um, and I think also when you're considering financial matters, um, one thing we also will encourage our clients to do is to speak to a financial advisor just to dream into how much money, what am I going to need?
• 29:45
  Jane Libbis: Because yes, your lawyer might be entitling you, you're entitled to X percent, but what's that actually going to mean in terms of your lifestyle?
• 29:52
  Jane Libbis: And would you maybe be okay if you just settled for Y percent and got on with your life rather than being stuck in a legal process shooting for the stars?
• 29:59
  Jane Libbis: Think about what it is that you really want.
• 30:02
  Jane Libbis: What are your interests and goals?
• 30:03
  Jane Libbis: What's important for your lifestyle?
• 30:05
  Jane Libbis: And that's one of the biggest things I see as a stumbling block in helping people to settle their financial matters is really being able to see into what life is going to look like on the other side of that.
• 30:17
  Jane Libbis: Because often it does feel scary because let's face it, whatever you had before is being divided in some proportion.
• 30:24
  Jane Libbis: So you don't have as much.
• 30:25
  Jane Libbis: That's the obvious, right?
• 30:27
  Jane Libbis: But it's coming to understand, and I really am passionate about trying to help people understand that whatever is on the other bit, whatever bit you've got, you can make that something fabulous, even if it's nothing like what you had before.
• 30:41
  Helen Zee: That's the new beginnings and the new chapter that you know that you serve so well with such heart and such compassion.
• 30:50
  Helen Zee: Um and let's talk a bit about pet custody.
• 30:57
  Helen Zee: I was just thinking I missed that.
• 30:59
  Helen Zee: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:59
  Helen Zee: Let's do pet custody before I go on to another question just to um tie this all up together.
• 31:06
  Helen Zee: Tell me, I know when I first met you and you were talking to me about what you advocate for pets, it's incredible.
• 31:15
  Helen Zee: And I would love you to let our listeners know about how our beloved fur babies are taken care of in in this process as well.
• 31:26
  Jane Libbis: Yeah, great, great.
• 31:27
  Jane Libbis: And of course, so many more of us have fur babies post-COVID.
• 31:30
  Jane Libbis: I'm sitting here with my little boy on the couch who came to us at during COVID times, although we he was on the horizon before then.
• 31:37
  Jane Libbis: But um I think we've all become, and in our office, we are all passionate dog lovers.
• 31:41
  Jane Libbis: And so many years ago, we became the first firm in Australia to have trained with this fabulous international pet custody expert, a woman called Karis Knappt, who's been a dog trainer, um, and trains now mediators and lawyers on how to really focus in on the importance of the welfare of the animal when you're negotiating around time with pets, post-separation, or where the pets should live.
• 32:01
  Jane Libbis: Um, and interestingly, um until June of this year, the law very much treated the pets the same way as they would treat the fridge or the table or the any other channel, right?
• 32:12
  Jane Libbis: It was pretty much around whose name is it in, maybe who put some money towards it, but was very superficial and didn't in any way consider the importance of the bond between human and pet, or in any way consider really the welfare of the pet.
• 32:27
  Jane Libbis: And we still haven't gone as far here as some other countries do, where they consider the animals to be sentient beings and they really do look at the best interests of the pet.
• 32:36
  Jane Libbis: But now our legislation talks about companion animals.
• 32:39
  Jane Libbis: So not a working dog or a working horse or whatever, but if it's your beloved family pet, mine's sitting here with a cushion over his ear at the moment, looking very adorable.
• 32:48
  Jane Libbis: If it's your beloved family pet, um, then what the law now says is that we can take into account um really the uh relationship and the dynamic between the owners and the pet.
• 32:59
  Jane Libbis: We can also take into account who has the capacity to provide financially for the animal.
• 33:04
  Jane Libbis: We can also take into account family violence components in terms of whether anybody has been, God help us, physically abusive to the pet or whether they've used the pet um as another factor in terms of perpetrating violence against the other pet owner, for example.
• 33:17
  Jane Libbis: So we can really be a little bit more mindful and the things that are important to the humans in why they would want time with their animal are now also more important to the law.
• 33:26
  Jane Libbis: So there's not, there's not scope yet to make kind of pet custody arrangements insofar as you have three days and I'll have three days or whatever it might be.
• 33:36
  Jane Libbis: But there are a broader range of things that the law will take into account now in determining who should keep the animal.
• 33:42
  Jane Libbis: And I think personally it's important to go beyond that as an animal owner and to still not just think about what the law would say, but to also really think about, just like with the kids, right?
• 33:52
  Jane Libbis: What does this little furry creature need?
• 33:55
  Jane Libbis: For example, Karis was telling us a story around a separated family where the German shepherd had gone with mum and the kids and became really feral, a formerly placid dog, started like biting the family couch and being snappy with the kids and whatever, because it turned out that dad was the one that had taken this animal on his long walk and enabled him to get his energy out and had really kept his equilibrium balanced.
• 34:20
  Jane Libbis: And so, whereas mom and the kids were the kids particularly were very attached to the animal, it wasn't working for the poor little animal.
• 34:27
  Jane Libbis: Um, so it's about also, I think, considering the breed, the age, the stage, the needs of the animal.
• 34:33
  Jane Libbis: Now, the court isn't gonna, if you're in a really conflictual situation, the court's still not gonna quite consider all of that.
• 34:40
  Jane Libbis: But I think as an animal owner, it's important that you do give those things some consideration so you can really work out again, yes, what it means to you, but also what this little fairy creature is gonna need.
• 34:52
  Helen Zee: Beautiful.
• 34:53
  Helen Zee: I'm so glad we we've got that taped and out in the airways, and people can refer to this.
• 35:01
  Helen Zee: Absolutely.
• 35:02
  Helen Zee: It's so, so important.
• 35:04
  Helen Zee: We'll finish up, my friend, with what role does community and from counselors, lawyers to and I know you touched this on earlier, financial planners, and even the events like the expo that is coming, um, you know, the fertility expo, uh play in helping the family build um resilience and also staying connected.
• 35:34
  Jane Libbis: I think it's really that aspect of, you know, it's a cliche, but you don't know what you don't know, right?
• 35:39
  Jane Libbis: And you haven't thought of what you haven't thought of.
• 35:42
  Jane Libbis: So the more that you can tap into absolutely things like the expo and all of the vast wisdom that will be in that space, but also into your counselor, your trusted, ideally collaboratively trained, sensitive lawyer, your financial planner who works a lot in the in the right space, the more conversations you can have, the more podcasts you can listen to that get your cogs whirring around the issues that can arise, or maybe it's tapping into something that was sitting there that you didn't know needed to be dealt with in you, the more you can do that and start to work through those issues with the right person.
• 36:16
  Jane Libbis: And often the right person as a starting point is going to be your loved one, right?
• 36:19
  Jane Libbis: Your spouse.
• 36:20
  Jane Libbis: The more you can do that, the more robust your relationship's gonna be.
• 36:23
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 36:24
  Jane Libbis: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 36:28
  Helen Zee: Thank you so much for coming on today and having this uh heartening conversation.
• 36:35
  Helen Zee: Uh, I know for myself, just on a little personal note to sign off on, I've been involved in uh many, many years ago through the divorce process and lawyers, etc.
• 36:48
  Helen Zee: And my goodness, you are so refreshing, my friend.
• 36:53
  Helen Zee: You are so refreshing to the space, the level of uh care, but also the holistic aspect of that lens of what you get to see of people being affected, and also bringing that into people's awareness, like financial planning, uh pet custody, and everything else that you do is really refreshing.
• 37:18
  Helen Zee: I'm sure that you have helped many, many families build their new futures together as a result of these trajectories that people have in life.
• 37:30
  Helen Zee: And now you get to do it at the forefront through family planning, which I'm so glad that you you are around and you do what you do.
• 37:40
  Jane Libbis: Thank you so much, Helen.
• 37:41
  Jane Libbis: And I'm so glad that you've come into my orbit and we can work on helping people together.
• 37:45
  Helen Zee: Yeah.
• 37:46
  Jane Libbis: It's a beautiful, enriching opportunity for them.
• 37:48
  Helen Zee: It really is.
• 37:49
  Helen Zee: It really is.
• 37:50
  Helen Zee: Thank you once again, and have yourself a beautiful day.
• 37:54
  Helen Zee: And you, my friend.
• 37:56
  Helen Zee: Thanks for joining us at the Homer Fertility.
• 38:03
  Helen Zee: We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.
• 38:10
  Liz Walton: If this podcast resonated, please share it.
• 38:13
  Liz Walton: Leave a review or subscribe.
• 38:15
  Liz Walton: This helps us support more people that are on this path.
• 38:19
  Helen Zee: And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.
• 38:28
  Liz Walton: Remember the missing piece might be waiting in a story, your body's wisdom, or something new just made for you.
• 38:37
  Liz Walton: Take care.