Latest / North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast / All the Cubs angles to an epic World Series

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All the Cubs angles to an epic World Series · North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: I just see these two teams and I think about
0:03
Speaker 1: what the Cubs were headed towards what they seemed like
0:06
Speaker 1: they were gonna be welcome into North Side territory. Foul
0:16
Speaker 1: Territory Networks Cubs Podcast. I'm Saada Charma with my Patrick Patrick,
0:20
Speaker 1: with my Patrick, with my partner, with my partner, Patrick,
0:28
Speaker 1: where your comes? Yeah? Where are your Cubs be? Writers
0:32
Speaker 1: over at the Athletic uh Patrick World Series starts. I
0:37
Speaker 1: guess whenever this this may publish. I don't know when
0:39
Speaker 1: this is publishing, but it starts Friday. I don't know
0:42
Speaker 1: what day it actually is today, but uh starts yeah yeah,
0:50
Speaker 1: uhh Yankees Dodgers. Uh. I don't know how much you're
0:56
Speaker 1: on Twitter, uh or like check out Twitter, but it's
1:00
Speaker 1: really interesting to see some of the fans that are like,
1:03
Speaker 1: this is the worst World Series. This is what's wrong
1:06
Speaker 1: with baseball. Two big money, big market teams. Nobody wants
1:12
Speaker 1: to see that. And I don't understand that point of
1:15
Speaker 1: view at all, Like this is, first of all, that
1:18
Speaker 1: never happens in baseball. This isn't the NBA where Lebron
1:21
Speaker 1: James is always in the finals, or you know, like
1:24
Speaker 1: you know the same teams are always make it. It's
1:26
Speaker 1: not like Tom Brady dominating the NFL. Like these things.
1:30
Speaker 1: This doesn't happen in baseball, Like shoey Otani has been
1:34
Speaker 1: the best player in the game and just played in
1:37
Speaker 1: the playoffs for the first time, you know, like Aaron Judge,
1:42
Speaker 1: Like the big knock on him was he doesn't perform
1:45
Speaker 1: in the playoffs. And now, like the big money teams
1:48
Speaker 1: are there, like the two of the biggest stars in
1:52
Speaker 1: the game, like four or five of the biggest stars
1:56
Speaker 1: in the game, right are there? Like I think it's
2:00
Speaker 1: and I think any fan base that's like, this is
2:02
Speaker 1: what's wrong with the game. These big money teams are
2:06
Speaker 1: pointing in the wrong direction. You should be pointing at
2:08
Speaker 1: your owners and saying, why aren't you spending like these teams,
2:12
Speaker 1: especially teams like Cleveland, like they have an owner that's
2:16
Speaker 1: as rich as any of them, and he should be spending.
2:21
Speaker 1: But I think this is fun. I think it's you know,
2:24
Speaker 1: I get it if this happens five years in a row, complaining,
2:28
Speaker 1: but this never happens. This hasn't happened since nineteen eighty one,
2:31
Speaker 1: Am I right? Right? Like that's the last time they
2:34
Speaker 1: matched up and I think it's fun to see the legacies,
2:39
Speaker 1: to see the superstars, and the matchup of arguably the
2:43
Speaker 1: two best teams in baseball.
2:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think two great backdrops as well.
2:48
Speaker 3: You've been to playoff games at Dodgers Stadium, and I
2:51
Speaker 3: can only imagine what a World Series game against the
2:54
Speaker 3: Yankees would be like. I mean, for a Cubs Dodgers
2:58
Speaker 3: game in August, and you know, you're randomly seeing celebrities
3:02
Speaker 3: and it's way too loud and it's kind of a
3:04
Speaker 3: hassle to move around. So I'm trying to imagine what
3:07
Speaker 3: it would be like, you know, for the Yankees in
3:12
Speaker 3: the World Series. There but those escalators up oh man,
3:17
Speaker 3: oh yeah, oh yeah, the overbearing security, the endless sort
3:23
Speaker 3: of maze to get wherever you need to go.
3:26
Speaker 2: But you know, I thought the Diamondbacks were going to
3:29
Speaker 2: be in the World Series.
3:30
Speaker 3: You know, that was when I would do when we
3:33
Speaker 3: bring training and heard Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts talking about
3:38
Speaker 3: sort of playoff baseball. I heard a lot about the
3:40
Speaker 3: Diamondbacks and seem to be well, if you just get in,
3:44
Speaker 3: you never know what might happen.
3:45
Speaker 2: And that is true.
3:47
Speaker 3: I mean, that's not completely wrong, but it's also not
3:49
Speaker 3: totally right. I think if you look at that final four,
3:53
Speaker 3: we was three of the top four opening day payrolls
3:58
Speaker 3: this year. I mean according to US today is kind
4:01
Speaker 3: of opening day snapshot, Mets at over three hundred million,
4:04
Speaker 3: Yankees over three hundred million, Dodgers at roughly two hundred
4:08
Speaker 3: and fifty million. Now these aren't like exact accounting figures,
4:13
Speaker 3: but it's a good snapshot.
4:14
Speaker 2: When you see the Cubs down there at number nine, uh, you.
4:18
Speaker 3: Know they're gonna be I think actually higher than that
4:22
Speaker 3: in terms of like the CBT. But it just gives
4:24
Speaker 3: you an idea of like, yes, the Cubs are not cheap.
4:29
Speaker 3: They have a top ten hey roll, they have a
4:32
Speaker 3: lot of resources, but they're not.
4:36
Speaker 2: You know, putting their foot on.
4:38
Speaker 3: The gas pedal the way that I think you would
4:40
Speaker 3: hope if you spend a lot of money and a
4:43
Speaker 3: lot of time.
4:45
Speaker 2: At Wrigley Field, and clearly money matters, like it doesn't
4:52
Speaker 2: fix everything. It doesn't guarantee that you're going to be
4:57
Speaker 2: playing in the World Series.
4:59
Speaker 3: Obviously, these teams, like you said, so out of a
5:01
Speaker 3: be meaning every year if it came down to that,
5:03
Speaker 3: But it does eliminate a talking point that I think
5:07
Speaker 3: we've heard from the Cubs over the years of like, well,
5:12
Speaker 3: you know, baseball's kind of random, and you know it
5:16
Speaker 3: doesn't you can't guarantee and buy success with free agents,
5:20
Speaker 3: and you know, we like to be rational. It's like, no,
5:22
Speaker 3: these are two teams that really go all out in
5:27
Speaker 3: terms of like every aspect of baseball operations, right of
5:32
Speaker 3: like international trades. They draft well off the field, they
5:42
Speaker 3: spared no expense. And again, the Cubs are not small time,
5:46
Speaker 3: they're not cheap, but they don't they simply don't compete
5:49
Speaker 3: at every level in every aspect the way these two
5:52
Speaker 3: teams do.
5:53
Speaker 1: Right, And and I think that's that's a good point
5:57
Speaker 1: that fans often miss right where we're talking about the
6:01
Speaker 1: big money guys like Aaron Judge and Shoho Tani and
6:04
Speaker 1: extending Mookie Betts signing Garrett Cole. Listen, these teams do that.
6:11
Speaker 1: They put the money on the field, but they also
6:13
Speaker 1: have two of the most robust front offices. Like they're
6:17
Speaker 1: not like all about spending money, right, Like that's yes,
6:21
Speaker 1: they they use that like as a cudgel of sorts
6:24
Speaker 1: to to kind of uh, you know, beat out other
6:27
Speaker 1: teams for free agents. Sure, but they're really they they're
6:31
Speaker 1: really good top to bottom and and they have I
6:34
Speaker 1: think this is two of the three biggest R and
6:36
Speaker 1: D departments, you know, like they they invest in scouts, Uh,
6:41
Speaker 1: they they draft really well. Like these are top to
6:45
Speaker 1: bottom strong orgs. And that's that's why when you just
6:49
Speaker 1: look at payroll, that's fine, right, Like that's I think
6:54
Speaker 1: that's important. I think we need to stop hearing the
6:56
Speaker 1: excuses of Arizona went to the World Series, so any
6:59
Speaker 1: team can make it right. The payroll doesn't matter. That
7:02
Speaker 1: that is absolutely true. Cleveland year and year out is good.
7:06
Speaker 1: Tampa almost every year is good, Milwaukee is almost every
7:11
Speaker 1: year is good. But I think this is important for
7:15
Speaker 1: the big money teams to go far to kind of
7:17
Speaker 1: stop giving that talking point to owners and saying, well,
7:20
Speaker 1: I don't to spend as much because I expect my
7:23
Speaker 1: front office to do more with less. How about build
7:26
Speaker 1: out a strong, robust front office and spend big money
7:30
Speaker 1: right and get the best free agents and get the
7:33
Speaker 1: best players. Because the Yankees have a twenty five year
7:37
Speaker 1: old superstar that they traded for for one year, right,
7:41
Speaker 1: they have him. They they took a risk by only
7:45
Speaker 1: having him for one year and he's gonna make minimum
7:49
Speaker 1: six hundred million dollars, like yeah in the ballpark, right Yeah.
7:56
Speaker 1: Like I think I saw like an estimate of like
7:59
Speaker 1: spot track, like an estimate of like they they they
8:02
Speaker 1: estimated like five hundred and fifteen million was what over
8:06
Speaker 1: X number of years? And I think that's kind of
8:08
Speaker 1: like a starting point for Juan Soto. And and this
8:12
Speaker 1: is like where we're entering an off season where the
8:15
Speaker 1: Cubs could desperately use the middle of the order bat
8:18
Speaker 1: a superstar in their lineup, and the reality is they're
8:22
Speaker 1: not really in this conversation. We're we're not going to
8:24
Speaker 1: rule them out because we never know what happens and
8:27
Speaker 1: things can get weird and and and the front office
8:30
Speaker 1: could suddenly decide that, hey, this is this is the guy,
8:34
Speaker 1: this is It doesn't matter, you know, we we can
8:37
Speaker 1: shift our thinking. The model says this, but we're we're
8:40
Speaker 1: going to go aggressive, so don't want to say zero percent.
8:45
Speaker 1: But the Cubs aren't. It's kind of ridiculous that the
8:48
Speaker 1: Cubs aren't a big part of this conversation. It's going
8:50
Speaker 1: to be the Yankees, the Mets, uh and and like
8:55
Speaker 1: you know, a couple other teams, maybe Toronto because they're
8:58
Speaker 1: kind of mystery team, you know, Seattle because they desperately
9:03
Speaker 1: need a bat. But the like Depoto is similar in
9:07
Speaker 1: the sense like he doesn't seem to go get out
9:09
Speaker 1: of his comfort zone with spending either. I just think
9:14
Speaker 1: it's you know, I think it's a shame that the
9:16
Speaker 1: Cubs are not going to be a big part of
9:19
Speaker 1: this talk outside of probably trying to drum up interest
9:22
Speaker 1: and drive the price up. I don't it has to
9:26
Speaker 1: be frustrating for fans that Juan Soto isn't the primary target,
9:31
Speaker 1: won't be the center of the off season for them.
9:34
Speaker 3: Our colleague at the Athletic, Jim Boden, has his like
9:37
Speaker 3: top forty five free agents just.
9:42
Speaker 2: Out on the Athletic today.
9:44
Speaker 3: His prediction fifteen years, six hundred and twenty two million
9:49
Speaker 3: dollars for Juan Soto in terms of contract length, in
9:56
Speaker 3: terms of overall value, new cups of con nowhere close
10:00
Speaker 3: to the Cups have shown no inkling to go to far.
10:04
Speaker 3: We don't know what they offered show how serious that
10:07
Speaker 3: ever was, but he's clearly I think kind of put
10:12
Speaker 3: unicorn in that regard in terms of where they were
10:14
Speaker 3: willing to go, and I think has made it clear
10:18
Speaker 3: he was not really willing to go anywhere other than
10:21
Speaker 3: Dodger Stadium. So I think I think the way I
10:24
Speaker 3: think you're you know, things could get crazier, things could
10:28
Speaker 3: get weird. Whenever you just said there thought, I think
10:30
Speaker 3: that's a good way to frame this offseason of like, yeah,
10:33
Speaker 3: I think the company not cann be the team that's
10:36
Speaker 3: doing a deal with Scott Boris at the winter meetings.
10:39
Speaker 3: But I do think they're a team that's gonna can
10:41
Speaker 3: always kind of be on the line with him or
10:45
Speaker 3: be kind of engaged in the deal flow for almost
10:49
Speaker 3: all these other top guys and that No, I don't
10:53
Speaker 3: think they're going to pay that premium and jump out
10:55
Speaker 3: really far for many or any of those like top
11:00
Speaker 3: one percent free agents. But I think if you kind
11:04
Speaker 3: of lower your sites after Soto, I wouldn't rule out Burns.
11:12
Speaker 3: I have a hard time seeing them like giving them
11:14
Speaker 3: the biggest pitching contract ever, right, But yeah, right, good that.
11:20
Speaker 3: I don't think anything is really like out of the
11:22
Speaker 3: realm of possibility this off season, right, I mean, how
11:27
Speaker 3: they're set up, I think can go going almost any
11:30
Speaker 3: direction they want.
11:31
Speaker 2: Other than that.
11:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the you know, we've talked about this
11:36
Speaker 1: a lot, are the general expectation. The general feel is
11:40
Speaker 1: that Cody Bellinger ops out right, and if that happens,
11:43
Speaker 1: they're going to have close to ninety million dollars off
11:48
Speaker 1: the books. What what their budget is exactly is never
11:53
Speaker 1: clear at this point in time, but it probably I
11:58
Speaker 1: don't think it changes drastically from what it was last year.
12:02
Speaker 1: As far as what they pay on for on the
12:05
Speaker 1: field talent, it probably hovers around the same area. So
12:10
Speaker 1: that's uh, you know, two hundred and forty ish million.
12:13
Speaker 1: I think that what's the luxury tax this this season?
12:16
Speaker 1: It goes up to forty one, right? Is that right?
12:19
Speaker 1: So it's probably so they're probably around there. I mean,
12:24
Speaker 1: that's that's plenty of money to spend. And you look
12:28
Speaker 1: at you look at this h you look at this
12:31
Speaker 1: list of players and and there's definite I agree with you.
12:35
Speaker 1: I think behind Burns, I don't know what rookie Susaki does.
12:39
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if he's coming uh
12:43
Speaker 1: to to uh MLB, but that that's someone could certainly
12:49
Speaker 1: be interested in UH And that's the type of thing
12:52
Speaker 1: where you have to make the sell, not the not
12:54
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. That's the less about That's not about money.
12:58
Speaker 1: That's about making the sell and saying this is our
13:00
Speaker 1: plan and this is uh, this is how we'll make
13:03
Speaker 1: you comfortable, this is how we'll make you great here,
13:05
Speaker 1: and this is how we'll make the team around you
13:08
Speaker 1: a consistent winner. If they can present that and do
13:11
Speaker 1: the best job with that, you know, more power to them,
13:14
Speaker 1: because right now, I don't think fans are convinced. And
13:17
Speaker 1: that's okay. I don't think this is a bad team,
13:19
Speaker 1: and I don't think this is going south by any means,
13:22
Speaker 1: but I like, I just watch I just see these
13:27
Speaker 1: two teams and I and I think about what the
13:31
Speaker 1: Cubs were headed towards what they seemed like they were
13:35
Speaker 1: going to be about a decade ago. And it's not
13:40
Speaker 1: that it's it's it's not a disaster, but it's not
13:44
Speaker 1: what they what was kind of envisioned by all of us.
13:49
Speaker 1: And I think that's that feels like a feels kind
13:53
Speaker 1: of like a shame, Like this is about sports and
13:55
Speaker 1: and like not about profit as much, but parent it's
14:00
Speaker 1: not in certain cases. Why don't we take a quick
14:04
Speaker 1: break right here? Patrick and we'll come back and talk
14:07
Speaker 1: more Cubs World Series stuff.
14:11
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15:07
Speaker 3: Stam, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that's exactly
15:10
Speaker 3: where my head was going. We were there in Cleveland,
15:16
Speaker 3: we saw it happen, We saw the behind the scenes celebrations,
15:21
Speaker 3: everything that kind of led up to that moment, and
15:25
Speaker 3: I don't know, we left the stadium what at like
15:27
Speaker 3: four in the morning whatever, it was running on sleep,
15:32
Speaker 3: you know, you go to the parade, It just gim
15:34
Speaker 3: It was just a total blur. But I think clearly
15:37
Speaker 3: in that moment, you look at the ages of that
15:40
Speaker 3: player group and the splendor of a renovated Wrigley Field,
15:45
Speaker 3: and just the momentum off that World Series, when you're thinking, like, wow,
15:50
Speaker 3: the cops coulna be like, make this a habit, right,
15:53
Speaker 3: And I think that.
15:56
Speaker 2: Sort of ambition.
15:58
Speaker 3: And glamour lasted through say, you know, kind of signing
16:04
Speaker 3: you Darvish, Right.
16:05
Speaker 1: That was exactly what I was thinking the exact.
16:08
Speaker 3: Moment of like, and I believe THEO even said, well,
16:11
Speaker 3: the way this deal is structured, or reduce the AAV
16:15
Speaker 3: on the contract to help with the CBT implications, leaving
16:20
Speaker 3: some room for a star. And obviously everyone's thinking probably
16:25
Speaker 3: Bryce Harper number one, Manny Machado number two does not happen.
16:31
Speaker 3: They win ninety five games, somehow in twenty eighteen, and
16:34
Speaker 3: everyone is pissed off, and little did we know it
16:38
Speaker 3: would sort of be a high watermark or at least
16:41
Speaker 3: a kind of the beginning of like a really significant downslope,
16:47
Speaker 3: in part because Craig Council's brewers catch them. We don't
16:50
Speaker 3: need to rehash everything as much as like that feeling
16:54
Speaker 3: is gone. Right when you look at this World Series,
16:57
Speaker 3: no one's like, oh, you could sub the Cubs in
16:59
Speaker 3: for that and would be the same, right, I mean,
17:01
Speaker 3: it'll still be a big deal if they were they
17:03
Speaker 3: were that good. But the clubs are clearly not on
17:06
Speaker 3: par with these teams. I mean, the standings have told
17:10
Speaker 3: us that, the results tell us that. But just in
17:14
Speaker 3: terms of an overall like I think vibe is too
17:17
Speaker 3: is not strong enough a word. But in terms of
17:19
Speaker 3: like an organizational like mandate or like just pursuit of greatness,
17:27
Speaker 3: don't quite see it. Every we feel at this point
17:30
Speaker 3: in time. Doesn't mean it won't happen over the next
17:33
Speaker 3: several years.
17:34
Speaker 2: But not the same anymore.
17:37
Speaker 1: No, it's certainly not. And I mean one key player
17:43
Speaker 1: from that from that group is now with the Yankees,
17:47
Speaker 1: and it's funny. Anthony Rizzo is getting a lot of
17:52
Speaker 1: love for playing through pain. I instantly thought of twenty nineteen.
17:58
Speaker 1: Remember that the ankor injury that he had near the
18:02
Speaker 1: end of twenty nineteen. They're fighting desperately to stay in
18:05
Speaker 1: the race to make the playoffs. Uh, he gets what
18:09
Speaker 1: looks like a potentially season ending injury. When when we
18:13
Speaker 1: all saw it live, I think we were like, all right,
18:18
Speaker 1: for a very long time. You know, he's out for
18:21
Speaker 1: a month or two is what we kind of when
18:23
Speaker 1: you saw it, that's what you thought, like, did he
18:26
Speaker 1: break his ankle? What happened here? I'm not sure. Did
18:30
Speaker 1: he miss a game? Did he come back like the
18:32
Speaker 1: next day something like that. Yeah. It was the type
18:36
Speaker 1: of thing where it's like, what he's playing today, and
18:41
Speaker 1: and that's like I'm getting the same vibes from what's
18:44
Speaker 1: being reported and written about with regards to his hand
18:49
Speaker 1: and he's hitting. I remember him, if I recall, he
18:53
Speaker 1: was hitting pretty well when that ankle injury happened. You know,
18:56
Speaker 1: like it's not like he's crushing the ball. I don't
18:59
Speaker 1: think he's hitting a bunch of line drives and home runs.
19:03
Speaker 1: He's he's doing his you know, I'm not going to
19:06
Speaker 1: strike out. I'm gonna find holes here, I'm going to
19:09
Speaker 1: put the ball in play. And he's hitting like four
19:12
Speaker 1: thirty or something like that in a handful of games
19:17
Speaker 1: for the Yankees, and and it sounds like he's he's
19:21
Speaker 1: kind of the he got labeled a leader. I'm not
19:26
Speaker 1: sure if he was as much a leader as much
19:28
Speaker 1: as like the guy that kept things loose in the clubhouse, right.
19:31
Speaker 1: He was really good at doing that and and and
19:34
Speaker 1: making sure guys weren't wound too tight in that clubhouse.
19:38
Speaker 1: And it sounds like he's doing something similar with the Yankees.
19:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, our colleagues at the Athletic had a good.
19:44
Speaker 3: Story on kind of the Yankees off the field chemistry,
19:48
Speaker 3: and Rizzio is a big part of that, to the
19:51
Speaker 3: point where he's been like calling the Yankees bullpen in
19:55
Speaker 3: the middle of playoff games. And I think it's a
20:00
Speaker 3: fine line between leader and class clown, right, And I
20:03
Speaker 3: think how zos I mean, I remember at Dodger Stadium
20:08
Speaker 3: him and Hovey on those pop ups like screaming at
20:10
Speaker 3: each other like don't drop it, stuff like that.
20:12
Speaker 2: It's like, really like that's what that how he's.
20:16
Speaker 3: Kind of gone about it and I think we've kind
20:19
Speaker 3: of alluded to before, like the Cubs and Rizzo are
20:25
Speaker 3: probably better off a part. Like I don't think either
20:28
Speaker 3: side looks back with like a huge amount. There's a
20:31
Speaker 3: huge sting at the time with Rizzo, he felt disrespected,
20:38
Speaker 3: he felt underappreciated. I think he's a little confused. But
20:46
Speaker 3: the offer of the Cubs made with Jed Hoyer kind
20:49
Speaker 3: of running point on it turned out to be maybe
20:53
Speaker 3: even a little generous if you kind of run the numbers.
21:00
Speaker 3: But I think this gave Rizzo an amazing opportunity. I mean,
21:03
Speaker 3: you if you win a World Series for the Cubs
21:06
Speaker 3: and the Yankees, I mean, how many people have done
21:10
Speaker 3: that to get to play with Seems like he's super
21:14
Speaker 3: tight with Aaron Judge, which doesn't like surprise me that
21:16
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're kind of running with some
21:19
Speaker 3: of these future Hall of famers and now Rizzo is,
21:23
Speaker 3: you know, not a Hall of Famer. I think that, Uh.
21:28
Speaker 3: I don't know if he was on that track in
21:30
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, but it wasn't like totally out of the
21:32
Speaker 3: realm of possibility. He just kept going great for like
21:36
Speaker 3: the next you know, decade. That hasn't quite happened. He's
21:38
Speaker 3: been an excellent player. I'm just looking at his Baseball
21:42
Speaker 3: Reference page here of like similarity scores Eric carros Ken Herbeck,
21:47
Speaker 3: Prince Fielder, Jerry Burnetz, Ryan Kletz, Cret Clasco, Adam Monroche,
21:53
Speaker 3: Rady Sanders, So like he's not quite that, but like,
21:59
Speaker 3: how many more other.
22:00
Speaker 2: Careers would you rather have than Rizzo's?
22:01
Speaker 1: Right?
22:02
Speaker 3: If he gets rid in New York and that Cubs ring,
22:07
Speaker 3: I mean, just a pretty be a pretty amazing capstone
22:11
Speaker 3: to a career. And you know, we'll see how he
22:14
Speaker 3: does in October. Seeing some of those misplays at first
22:17
Speaker 3: base and looking at his kind of overall numbers this
22:21
Speaker 3: year doesn't make me think the IVY system is going
22:23
Speaker 3: to be lighting up for mister Rizzo to come back
22:27
Speaker 3: to Chicago.
22:27
Speaker 2: But we'll see what he does on the biggest stage here.
22:31
Speaker 1: I mean, really, from twenty fourteen to twenty nineteen, he
22:36
Speaker 1: was doing like he you know that you're right, like
22:40
Speaker 1: with borderline Hall of fame if he can do that
22:44
Speaker 1: for another five years, right, Like that was like he
22:46
Speaker 1: was he was performing offensively, like kind of like Freddy Freeman, right,
22:51
Speaker 1: and like maybe maybe a step below Freddy Freeman, but
22:54
Speaker 1: like he he was pretty close to Freddy Freeman level.
22:58
Speaker 1: You do that for he just didn't do it for
23:00
Speaker 1: long enough. And the back was a big issue. And
23:03
Speaker 1: I think the back uh has Dingdom in New York.
23:09
Speaker 1: Uh he had that awful concussion that last year, right,
23:14
Speaker 1: and that that really hurt obviously. And now I think
23:17
Speaker 1: he's just you know, he's thirty four, this is uh,
23:21
Speaker 1: or I guess he's thirty five five.
23:23
Speaker 2: Now yeah, yeah, this past summer.
23:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean, you know, this is part of
23:30
Speaker 1: the aging curve. But you're right, Like I kind of
23:33
Speaker 1: liked the idea of Anthony Rizzo's legacy. H if he
23:37
Speaker 1: if he can win another World Series and and do
23:39
Speaker 1: so Cubs and Yankees, that's that's you know, more power
23:43
Speaker 1: to him. Like that's a great story. Uh. And and
23:46
Speaker 1: for a great cub, like he like a beloved cub.
23:50
Speaker 1: The fan base loves this guy and and he you know,
23:54
Speaker 1: he has some great moments like think about it, like uh,
24:00
Speaker 1: the whether it's him like standing in disbelief on third
24:04
Speaker 1: base after Zoberi's you know, go ahead hit in the
24:09
Speaker 1: Real Series, him celebrating after receiving the final out from
24:15
Speaker 1: Chris Bryant even the next season, the you know, the
24:19
Speaker 1: bloop single that he got against the Nationals. I think
24:21
Speaker 1: there was an intentional walk to get to him, right,
24:24
Speaker 1: like or something they respect me screaming respect me after that,
24:29
Speaker 1: and you know, like those are like just a lot
24:32
Speaker 1: of fun moments and like the type of things that
24:36
Speaker 1: that you know, people find unforgettable when you do that.
24:39
Speaker 1: In the postseason. You know, Rizzo, the Cubs didn't have
24:44
Speaker 1: any moments like that. They didn't have good, you know
24:48
Speaker 1: etched in your mind postseason moments. It was all bad stuff.
24:53
Speaker 1: And the Rizzo Cubs, Rizzo in particular, gave fans a
24:58
Speaker 1: lot of those memories. Know obviously Hobby Dexter, Fowler, Kyle Schwarber,
25:04
Speaker 1: that that everyone on that team to come back against
25:07
Speaker 1: the Giants. I mean, I can name a thousand things
25:11
Speaker 1: just from like a three year span that gave that
25:14
Speaker 1: gave fans so many memories, and and Rizzo is is
25:17
Speaker 1: a huge part of that. It'd be cool to see
25:19
Speaker 1: his his legacy like kind of like the final stamp
25:23
Speaker 1: on a on a on a great career. You know,
25:25
Speaker 1: like here's look at this legacy that you've creative for yourself.
25:29
Speaker 1: All right, Patrick, let's take one more break and come
25:32
Speaker 1: back and wrap this baby up. Patrick. One of the
25:36
Speaker 1: bigger stories in this postseason has been bullpen usage, and
25:42
Speaker 1: kind of like I don't know if it's a talking
25:45
Speaker 1: point as much as just the reality of the situation,
25:49
Speaker 1: Like starting pitchers are not the story. It's it's relievers.
25:53
Speaker 1: If you don't have a bullpen that can get you
25:56
Speaker 1: through a seven game series, uh, you're or not. You're
26:01
Speaker 1: not going deep in this in this postseason, And it's
26:05
Speaker 1: kind of remarkable to watch. Uh, probably the weakest uh
26:11
Speaker 1: starting staff the Dodgers have had during this run probably
26:15
Speaker 1: to the World Series, and and arguably I don't know
26:18
Speaker 1: who who the betting favorite is in this, but you know,
26:23
Speaker 1: like look at these names. I mean, who's the biggest
26:25
Speaker 1: name in the Dodgers' bullpen? Is it Blake Trinan. Who's
26:29
Speaker 1: the biggest name in the in the Yankees bullpen? I
26:32
Speaker 1: mean Clay Holmes, Like these aren't like dominant names that
26:36
Speaker 1: you think of in bullpens. And those aren't the best
26:40
Speaker 1: relievers in the bullpens either. I mean maybe trina is the.
26:43
Speaker 2: You know, the biggest.
26:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, oh's disrespecting the show. Uh, he would tell you.
26:56
Speaker 6: Name.
26:58
Speaker 3: He is like Marianna Rivera to point zero, in which
27:02
Speaker 3: we say, with all due respect, always a great guy
27:07
Speaker 3: to talk to, and part of why he's in this
27:10
Speaker 3: position is because he thinks he's awesome and wants to
27:13
Speaker 3: like rip the other team's hard out right.
27:16
Speaker 2: I mean, just a great, great competitor.
27:19
Speaker 3: Sorry to derail it, but I know you're a big
27:21
Speaker 3: fan of the Light Show, so I had.
27:22
Speaker 1: To get it. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, well, I just
27:28
Speaker 1: you know, this is it. This is important to the
27:31
Speaker 1: Cubs because we saw two years in a row now
27:35
Speaker 1: a bullpen that came together over the course of the season, right,
27:40
Speaker 1: but had its hiccups and kept them from getting to
27:45
Speaker 1: the postseason. Essentially, they're there. Their down moments were a
27:49
Speaker 1: big reason why they didn't get there. What's interesting to
27:53
Speaker 1: me is like, what does this tell the Cubs? Like
27:56
Speaker 1: what is like? I think for me what it says,
28:00
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, absolutely this needs to be addressed. Absolutely,
28:03
Speaker 1: you need to do a better job. I don't know,
28:06
Speaker 1: like I look at these names and I look at
28:08
Speaker 1: who's pitching. I don't think it says spend big money,
28:12
Speaker 1: which I have been saying for I'm probably getting annoying
28:16
Speaker 1: for fans that want them to spend big in the bullpen,
28:20
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's the answer. But getting it
28:23
Speaker 1: right feels absolutely like a must. It's not like something
28:30
Speaker 1: that you can Even if you screw up the bullpen,
28:33
Speaker 1: you're not getting to the postseason.
28:37
Speaker 3: Yeah. What really struck me was some of the talk
28:39
Speaker 3: around the Dodgers and what Dave Roberts has done expertly,
28:44
Speaker 3: both at the end of the Padres series and also
28:47
Speaker 3: as they were closing out the Mets, of like, how
28:50
Speaker 3: are they gonna navigate these bullpen games?
28:54
Speaker 2: How do you get to twenty seven outs?
28:56
Speaker 3: And you know, something I've noticed on social medi media
29:00
Speaker 3: during the season that I think frustrates fans and rightly so,
29:04
Speaker 3: is the sort of like arbitrary endpoint stats of like
29:09
Speaker 3: the Cubs bullpen from May tenth to like September twelfth
29:13
Speaker 3: has been fourth test in Major League Baseball. But it
29:16
Speaker 3: was like terrible at the front end and it wears
29:19
Speaker 3: down at the end. I am exaggerating, of course, but
29:22
Speaker 3: I thought of it of like, you want to win
29:25
Speaker 3: the World Series, you got to play an extra month, right,
29:28
Speaker 3: And do the Cubs have enough to like just get
29:33
Speaker 3: into the postseason, Well they have enough to keep going
29:36
Speaker 3: for that extra month, and can these guys execute on
29:42
Speaker 3: the biggest stages?
29:43
Speaker 6: Right?
29:44
Speaker 3: I mean, I think if you look at some of
29:46
Speaker 3: those leverage numbers the Cubs had this year of like,
29:50
Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of blown saves. Maybe is it
29:54
Speaker 3: oversimplified or can be misleading at times, but it's like,
29:58
Speaker 3: you know, you look.
29:59
Speaker 6: At you know, a walk off loss in Colorado or whatever,
30:04
Speaker 6: and you know in September and like the playoff chances
30:07
Speaker 6: basically go down to zero of like Cubs.
30:09
Speaker 3: Did not do a great job of like make a pitch, right,
30:13
Speaker 3: Isn't that always kind of what the manager of pitching
30:15
Speaker 3: say is like make a pitch, make this pitch, And
30:18
Speaker 3: Cubs simply just have not done that enough over these
30:23
Speaker 3: last let's say two years, right, I mean under different managers,
30:27
Speaker 3: but just like this sort of like window because it
30:30
Speaker 3: was fairly similar.
30:32
Speaker 2: In how things played out.
30:33
Speaker 3: There's a lot of similar personnel and like similar expectations
30:36
Speaker 3: of I have a couple of things break right, you know,
30:39
Speaker 3: maybe we win more.
30:40
Speaker 2: Like eighty six.
30:41
Speaker 3: If things go wrong, you know, we win like seventy eight,
30:45
Speaker 3: and they wind up at eighty three both times, And
30:49
Speaker 3: to me, that's.
30:51
Speaker 2: Kind of how I process.
30:53
Speaker 3: Those sort of bullpen games, like, all right, who who
30:55
Speaker 3: could the Cups trust that point? And I guess their
30:57
Speaker 3: answer will probably be like, you just keep stab backing
31:00
Speaker 3: up as many good pictures as possible, right, Like, if
31:02
Speaker 3: they go out against starting pitcher this offseason, as we expect,
31:06
Speaker 3: you're probably not going to roll out five starting pitchers,
31:09
Speaker 3: right And if you have in the postseason that is,
31:12
Speaker 3: And if Craig Counsel's outgetter philosophy and the credibility he
31:17
Speaker 3: has with pictures, and if some of these young pitchers
31:20
Speaker 3: stay healthy and get better and you keep throwing more
31:24
Speaker 3: minor league deals and waiver claims onto the pile, like
31:28
Speaker 3: it could work, right, Because to your point, it's not
31:30
Speaker 3: like you if they don't have Marianna Rivera.
31:33
Speaker 2: It's not like Gary right at his prime game over phase.
31:38
Speaker 1: Right now, right, And I mean, look, the Yankees are
31:42
Speaker 1: getting by with you know, Clay Holm seems a little
31:45
Speaker 1: rejuvenated after after losing the closers role. Luke Weaver dominant
31:50
Speaker 1: reliever that a year ago I'm pretty sure was god
31:54
Speaker 1: awful in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty three, he had
31:59
Speaker 1: a no that it's not his Zra Uh. He had
32:02
Speaker 1: a six forty e R. So like god awful. Uh.
32:07
Speaker 1: Tim Hill was on the white side and has a
32:11
Speaker 1: one fifty nine ERA.
32:13
Speaker 2: You're not good enough for the worst team of all team? Yeah,
32:16
Speaker 2: want to go pitch in the World Series?
32:18
Speaker 1: Yeah? And this guy like so none of these guys
32:22
Speaker 1: are getting like they're they're not you know, Kenley Janssen,
32:26
Speaker 1: They're not big name relievers. I think the highest paid
32:30
Speaker 1: guy is, uh in this group is Blake Trinon, who
32:34
Speaker 1: has a four year I just looked at this four year,
32:37
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five million dollar deal. That's not that much.
32:42
Speaker 1: Like the years is what would make Jed Hoyer uncomfortable? Right,
32:47
Speaker 1: But I mean if you're if you're talking about like
32:49
Speaker 1: a little over five million dollars a year, is that
32:53
Speaker 1: really or I guess that's six million a year, right, Like,
32:56
Speaker 1: that's not that's not something that like destroys your and
33:02
Speaker 1: destroys your chances to add other free agents. Uh. I
33:06
Speaker 1: think it's a I think it's interesting how teams build
33:08
Speaker 1: bullpens now. I think when you look at bullpens across
33:11
Speaker 1: the game, who's who are the best teams. Michael Kopek
33:17
Speaker 1: I believe is under control for another year. Right, and
33:20
Speaker 1: they got him for two huge White Sox relievers, like
33:24
Speaker 1: or like two White Sox relievers. I don't know, like
33:28
Speaker 1: where Evan Phillips came from. I don't know where Alex
33:30
Speaker 1: Vessia came from. But these guys are huge parts of
33:34
Speaker 1: of their of the Dodgers bullpen. It's like these guys
33:38
Speaker 1: are like waiver pickups. These guys are small trades that
33:42
Speaker 1: nobody notices. There's going to be a move that you
33:48
Speaker 1: and I and almost no one among the fan base
33:53
Speaker 1: even notices or tweets about or or or there's one
34:00
Speaker 1: iota about and and it's going to be make a
34:03
Speaker 1: huge difference for the Cubs bulld Like that's that's the
34:07
Speaker 1: reality of how bullpens work. I'm I'm interested to see
34:12
Speaker 1: how they go about it this winter. Uh And and
34:15
Speaker 1: that's not in a like how they go about it
34:18
Speaker 1: spending money. I think it's a full year now of
34:22
Speaker 1: Craig Council in the organization. Right, he was hired almost
34:26
Speaker 1: a year ago. Now he there are things that he
34:30
Speaker 1: saw in Milwaukee that he has to want to like
34:35
Speaker 1: adjust here right what exactly they are. I'm not sure
34:39
Speaker 1: if he's going to spill the beans and tell us,
34:41
Speaker 1: but there are things that he likes that that from
34:43
Speaker 1: Milwaukee that he wants to bring over here. Maybe part
34:46
Speaker 1: of that is identifying better relievers. Uh. And and it's
34:51
Speaker 1: not that the Cubs have had problems with that, but
34:53
Speaker 1: I come back to what Jed said at the end
34:56
Speaker 1: of the season, it's on him. Uh. They they kind
35:00
Speaker 1: of fell apart there in the middle of the season
35:03
Speaker 1: or early on in the season with injuries and ineffectiveness,
35:06
Speaker 1: and they didn't have the depth. So how do how
35:09
Speaker 1: do they create that depth? What does that mean? I'm
35:11
Speaker 1: curious to see what that means in action? Right when
35:15
Speaker 1: you don't have the depth. They didn't have the depth.
35:17
Speaker 1: Does that mean do they have the depth now? Does
35:19
Speaker 1: he believe they have enough depth? And now it's just
35:21
Speaker 1: getting more like building it up and getting four guys
35:24
Speaker 1: uh you know, uh that compete for spots or or
35:29
Speaker 1: are there changes happening? Like what does that exactly mean?
35:33
Speaker 1: There there were some really good developments over the course
35:35
Speaker 1: of the season. I'm curious how much of it matters
35:38
Speaker 1: next year, you know, Like does Jorgel Lopez come back?
35:42
Speaker 1: Is uh? Is it Jesus? Tyson Miller? I wanted to
35:46
Speaker 1: call him Trevor Miller there for for a moment, like
35:49
Speaker 1: can you can you rely on on on Tyson Miller?
35:52
Speaker 1: Can you rely on Nate Pearson? Are these guys? What
35:55
Speaker 1: what we saw from Tyson Miller over the course of
35:57
Speaker 1: the season, what we saw from Nate Pearson at the
35:59
Speaker 1: end of the season. Is that real? Or are you
36:02
Speaker 1: going to get Like I remember when two years ago
36:05
Speaker 1: everyone was counting on Keegan Thompson and he just wasn't
36:08
Speaker 1: the same guy. He just wasn't So like that. That's
36:12
Speaker 1: the other thing. You may think you have this depth
36:15
Speaker 1: and suddenly you don't. How do they identify that? How
36:19
Speaker 1: do they determine that?
36:21
Speaker 6: What?
36:21
Speaker 1: What are the things they look at? One thing that
36:24
Speaker 1: kept being hammered to me about like someone like Julian Merriweather.
36:28
Speaker 1: People were like, oh, Julian Merriweather is hurt. Wow, what
36:32
Speaker 1: does his history tell you that he's going to get hurt?
36:35
Speaker 1: Like going into the season, relying on him is not
36:39
Speaker 1: something you can do. Like, it's not that he's ineffective
36:42
Speaker 1: when he's healthy, it's that he's rarely healthy. So the
36:46
Speaker 1: fact that the Cubs came like and I think that
36:48
Speaker 1: that that's something that sticks in my head. I heard
36:50
Speaker 1: that from like four different scouts around the game. They're like, yeah,
36:53
Speaker 1: maybe they shouldn't have relied on the guy that always
36:55
Speaker 1: gets hurt and then just happened to have a you know,
36:59
Speaker 1: a healthy season, like because that's these are things you
37:02
Speaker 1: have to consider and so what is what does that mean?
37:07
Speaker 1: How do you how do you how do you address
37:11
Speaker 1: these issues in the offseason? I guess is I'm not
37:14
Speaker 1: sure if we have a clear answer yet, but I'm curious.
37:17
Speaker 3: Solving for wins hoday that what mister counsel would say
37:23
Speaker 3: or mister Hawkins would say.
37:24
Speaker 2: I think we've talked about Clay Holmes before. Jim Bowden actually.
37:29
Speaker 3: Mentioned trying in LinkedIn to the Cubs and his predictions comment.
37:33
Speaker 2: It sounded a little.
37:36
Speaker 3: Light in terms of the projection two years seventeen million,
37:43
Speaker 3: I think the cub.
37:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
37:48
Speaker 3: I think the Cubs would probably also look at it
37:50
Speaker 3: of like, well, could also hit some more three run
37:54
Speaker 3: homers and not have your bullpen pitch like max for
38:00
Speaker 3: a high intensity, high leverage.
38:02
Speaker 1: That's everything I that.
38:07
Speaker 3: I don't think they're going to be like necessarily chasing
38:13
Speaker 3: the bullpen, uh or like invest over investing in the bullpen,
38:19
Speaker 3: and but it I just don't think they can run
38:23
Speaker 3: it back the way they did this pastor.
38:24
Speaker 1: I think you get, you know.
38:26
Speaker 3: Someone who's better than Hectorannaius, who you think will pitch
38:30
Speaker 3: better than Hector Airis obviously, and keep throwing those guys
38:35
Speaker 3: on there. But look, there's there's no area of this team.
38:39
Speaker 3: You're like, Oh, the Cubs are like totally set there
38:41
Speaker 3: right right. Oh, They're like that is totally taken care of.
38:44
Speaker 3: I mean we'll get after the World Series, we'll get
38:47
Speaker 3: some more clarity and Cody Bellinger we've already reported the
38:53
Speaker 3: rotation has to be addressed. That is their plan. The
38:56
Speaker 3: bullpen stuff never and so it'll be fun to kind
39:02
Speaker 3: of watch this World Series and then for us to
39:06
Speaker 3: get after it on our off season coverage.
39:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious to see how aggressive they are after
39:13
Speaker 1: last offseason where we I think I literally rode a
39:17
Speaker 1: piece like what are the Cubs doing type of thing
39:21
Speaker 1: because fans were so like losing their minds and nothing
39:25
Speaker 1: had happened, and it's like, all right, let's try and
39:28
Speaker 1: explain their thought process here and what's happening? Will they
39:31
Speaker 1: be more aggressive? Will it? Will they wait out the
39:33
Speaker 1: market again? Will especially with relievers, is this gonna be there?
39:38
Speaker 1: Like maybe that maybe that is the difference, right, instead
39:41
Speaker 1: of waiting to see who falls through the cracks. It's like,
39:44
Speaker 1: we're targeting these four guys and we'll be aggressive with it.
39:48
Speaker 1: And here's our numbers. We're making reasonable but aggressive contract
39:53
Speaker 1: offers to these guys. These are the guys we want. Yeah, yeah,
39:56
Speaker 1: maybe that's the adjustment. We'll see. I don't know, but
40:01
Speaker 1: we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I think bullpen
40:04
Speaker 1: will be something we have to pay attention to it.
40:07
Speaker 1: And maybe maybe we should pay attention to those smaller
40:10
Speaker 1: moves too, and and and figure out why they're picking
40:13
Speaker 1: up random reliever X, you know, putting them through waivers
40:18
Speaker 1: six times and yeah, welanc.
40:22
Speaker 2: Him so much we put them on waivers the day
40:24
Speaker 2: after weekly.
40:25
Speaker 1: Yes, all right, Patrick, we'll be back next week with
40:29
Speaker 1: more Cubs talk. Thanks so much for listening. This is
40:33
Speaker 1: Northside Territory. Make sure to rate, review, subscribe, subscribe to
40:36
Speaker 1: the YouTube channel, and subscribe to The Athletic where Patrick
40:40
Speaker 1: and I will be on top of all things cubs
40:43
Speaker 1: this winter. Thanks so much for listening. Everyone, take care,