Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Holly Pivec: No New Revelation And NAR ‘Cover-Up’ Church Culture

Transcript

Holly Pivec: No New Revelation And NAR ‘Cover-Up’ Church Culture · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity, no topic, off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Friends, family and Christ, thank you so much for tuning in, watching, listening, sharing
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  the podcast.
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  We've got a sister and Christ that's been so active in discerning the spirits, testing
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  the spirits and writing about it with Doug Geivett.
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  It's Holly Pivic, and we're going to talk about some recent revelations that have been
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  happening, unfortunately, in the church regarding the NAR, Bethel Church, and a whole lot of
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  things we want to talk to her about.
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  But I want to give the websites, hollypivic.com, P-I-V-E-C.
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  It's just so great to have her back.
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  You can look her up on Facebook, holly.pivic, also over on YouTube.
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  They're doing a podcast there, a hollypivic official, and you can get her recent books.
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  We'll talk a little bit about reckless Christianity and love the subtitle, the destructive
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  new teachings, and practices of Bill Johnson, Bethel Church, and the global movement of
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  apostles and prophets, and of course, there are several books also before that on the
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  NAR.
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  But Holly, so thankful, they're reconnect with you, appreciate your time, and all that
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  you do.
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  Thank you.
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  I always appreciate your invitation to come back and talk with you and your audience.
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  Awesome.
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  And there's a lot of new people in our viewers and listeners that maybe aren't familiar
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  with you, what you and Doug have done.
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  Share a little bit about what your specialty is and what your ministry is about.
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  Yeah.
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  So for over 20 years now, I've been researching and writing and now podcasting about the
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  new apostolic reformation movement, this global movement that's causing, it's full of
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  false teaching and causing so much destruction, damage in the church and destruction in
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  people's lives, Doug, and I, Doug Geivitt is a professor emeritus of philosophy at Talbot
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  School of Theology at Biola University.
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  I earned my master's degree in Christian apologetics at Biola, that's when I got to know
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  Doug while I was working also at Biola as the university editor there.
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  And together now we've co-authored four books about this new apostolic reformation movement.
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  It started with one book and we got such a response from people saying thank you for
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  describing what we've been seeing, taking over our churches and helping us have an understanding
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  of framework, a label for what it is.
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  And so we've been doing that ever since and I receive communications from people daily
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  describing the ways that this movement has harmed them and their challenges recovering
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  from it.
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  So much damage done sadly to believers and I hope, I hope and pray that a lot of these
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  people that went through this, you know, some of the stuff they learned and were, there
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  is abuse and other things involved, but just false teachings.
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  I hope they did not fall away from God and the truth of Scripture, but churches, men
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  will disappoint you.
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  Human beings, men and women I should say, not just men, there's some women out there,
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  women preachers and from false doctrines as well.
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  But I want to ask you, NAR, Kingdom Now Theology, how does that play?
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  We hear a lot about Kingdom Now and even more so recently and I think there's some in
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  the Trump administration, not in the administration, but speaking in him from the faith side of
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  things in the White House faith office, there's some that would promote Kingdom Now and they've
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  got his ear.
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  It can be very confusing to some Christians.
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  So can you talk to us a little bit about that?
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  Yeah, sure.
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  So I'll explain how Kingdom Now Theology fits in.
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  So the goal of the new Apostolic Reformation movement is to bring God's Kingdom to Earth,
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  his social political Kingdom to Earth.
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  Leaders in this movement teach that that's the task of the church.
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  So that's really the great commission to bring God's Kingdom to Earth and they would
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  say that in order to do that though, the church requires supernatural power and new revelation
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  from God, new revelation that God is giving today in order to give the church strategies
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  and the miraculous powers needed to bring God's Kingdom to Earth.
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  But they would say the church can't have that revelation and that supernatural power as
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  long as apostles and prophets, modern day apostles and prophets are not leading the church.
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  And so the leaders in this movement say that for the past 2000 years, the church hasn't
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  had apostles and prophets.
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  So it's been missing this critical new revelation from God, these new miraculous, these supernatural
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  powers that the church needs to rise up and become this great, in time, miracle-working
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  army and bring God's Kingdom to Earth.
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  And so Kingdom Now Theology is part of the eschatology.
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  It's the belief that the church is supposed to bring God's Kingdom to Earth now and they
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  believe that that is done under the authority of the apostles and prophets who are directing
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  the church and revealing the divine strategies for doing so.
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  Wow, there's so much I want to ask you about this, so problematic.
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  First of all, shout out to one of your earlier books, Counterfeit Kingdom, the dangers of
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  new revelation, new prophets and new age practices.
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  So Holly, help me understand in our viewers and our listeners, maybe we have some younger
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  Christians too that are watching the podcast, new revelation, the Bible, the Canon is closed,
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  the Bible is, we have God's Word from Genesis to Revelation and we have fulfilled prophecy,
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  we have all we need in God's Word.
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  But how does new revelation play into that?
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  That's not new scripture.
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  So is this men claiming to be apostles saying I got a new message from God and this is
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  what it is, is that part of it?
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  Yes, so these apostles and prophets, many of them are claiming to actually receive new
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  doctrinal revelation for the global church, even for entire nations.
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  So we're not just talking about historic charismatic or Pentecostal beliefs that some people
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  might have a gift of prophecy to encourage other individuals or give a message to their
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  local church.
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  We're talking about apostles and prophets who are claiming to give messages to the global
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  church to entire nations and these people even claim they have authority to make decrees
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  that affect the weather, to essentially command angels to carry out their decrees.
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  So when it comes to their new revelation, they'll say, well, we're not adding to scripture
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  because they don't take their revelations and physically append them to the Bible, the
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  pages of the Bible, and they'll say that they do think the scripture is the highest
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  authority.
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  The problem is that when they're claiming to give revelation to the global church that
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  must be received in order to bring God's kingdom to earth, that critical new revelation,
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  then they are in effect putting their words on a par with the authority of scripture,
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  even if they're not attaching, stapling their revelations to a physical Bible.
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  There's some, a lot of power, if you think about it, and people fall for it.
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  So explain please for those who are maybe new to learning about all these other beliefs
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  outside of the essentials of the faith and the true biblical worldview, how we, men
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  is not responsible, nor do we have the power, do we, to bring God's kingdom to earth?
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  Some, some people believe that, so that's why they do certain things, right?
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  Yeah, that's right.
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  Yeah, right.
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  We know from scripture that Christ will, you know, bring his, his kingdom at his return,
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  but yeah, they would actually say that, that the God wants us to bring his kingdom to
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  earth prior to Christ's return to, to usher in Christ's return.
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  The leaders of this movement may disagree exactly how much of God's kingdom can be brought
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  in prior to his return, but they do all agree that it's a significant amount, much more
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  than people have, have previously, you know, believed to be possible.
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  So that's, and they have something called the Seven Mount Mandate, which is one of the
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  new revelations that the prophets in this movement claim to every see for the global
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  church, and that's, that's the revelation God has allegedly given them that the way for
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  the church to rise up and take the minion of nations is, is for the apostles to rise to
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  the top of the seven major societal institutions.
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  And once they rise to the top, they alone are authorized, they'll, they govern those institutions.
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  And so they would claim their authority even extends beyond the church, the apostles
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  and prophets, the governing societal institutions, and that they alone have the authority to cast
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  out high-ranking demons, they would say rule over those institutions.
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  And so the Seven Mount Mandate, you know, the institutions would be like media, government,
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  you know, family, religion, these, these major societal institutions that, and so that's
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  one reason people have concerns about like Paula White, who's part of this movement,
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  you know, in her connection with Donald Trump, serving as his pastor and the leader of
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  the faith office in the White House, you know, she's part of this movement.
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  And so people have concerns about the proximity of these leaders because in this movement,
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  they see the White House as, as really the prize, if you can rise to the top of, you
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  know, the White House, that's how you rise to the top of the government mountain.
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  And so by having access to President Trump, they, they see it as a way to fulfill their
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  Seven Mount Mandate.
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  So I think the, if I remember right the last time we had you on, I think we were talking
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  a lot more about Paula White, Cain, and we played some video clips of her preaching and
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  some, just some of the stuff she said, really is amazing and sad.
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  And maybe they're, they're deceived, but they think they mean well.
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  They think, they think they're working for God and doing the country, serving the country.
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  But wow, so there's so much to clean up here, Holly, and that's why we have you on to
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  help us understand all this.
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  So now let's fast forward to recent months and maybe recent years.
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  And Mike Winger, who is an amazing, he's got a great ministry.
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  He recently, I don't know if he did an expose, but he's been putting out videos on this.
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  Share what's going on and how it relates to Bethel, because you really call out Bethel
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  particularly in reckless Christianity.
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  Yeah, so, so Mike Winger, for those who don't know, he's been doing a series of exposés on
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  what he has called cover up culture, specifically in the charismatic church.
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  And one of those exposés was almost the six hour exposé and it was talking about Bethel
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  church and writing California, which is the flagship church of this new Apostolic
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  Reformation Movement.
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  And it showed that things, for example, that there's a well-known prophet that has been closely
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  working with Bethel over the years, a platform by Bethel, promoted by Bethel.
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  Someone we talked about this in our book, counterfeit kingdom, this prophet had been
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  data mining prophecies.
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  So what that means is he was claiming he would go on stage and he would claim to call out
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  someone in the audience and give revelation to them from God, but he would say something
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  like, does anybody in the room here?
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  God's telling me there's someone in the room named Bill and, you know, I'm making up
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  these names, but a name.
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  And then, and does the birthday, you know, someone would raise their hand in the audience
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  and say, oh, you know, I'm Bill, you go, oh, Bill is your birthday February, you know,
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  second, 1978, and he go, yeah, it is.
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  And he'd be like, oh, and God's showing me that you have a pet.
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  Do you have a dog, you know, a miniature schnauser?
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  And everybody would be like, shock, like, how does he know so much about this person?
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  Then they would think God was telling them all this information, but really he had gone
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  on Facebook or different social media profiles ahead of time and data mines.
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  He obtained all this information by researching it in advance.
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  So it's really, it's hot reading is what that's called and we, we actually talked about
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  Sean Bolts doing this in our book, Counterfeit Kingdom and one of our chapters, but then it
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  also came to light that many allegations of a lot of sexual terrible sexual abuse and
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  misconduct from Sean Bolts is being alleged now too.
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  And Mike Winger goes into all the glory details and his six hour exposé, but the concern
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  is that leaders at Bethel Church knew about these things and continued to promote him.
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  It seems as a genuine profit.
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  And so after Mike Winger did his video, there's been all this fallout at Bethel.
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  The leaders have even apologized for platforming him, but the problem is that, that this goes
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  much deeper than just, you know, this cover up culture, how terrible it is, is a symptom
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  of something much deeper.
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  And that's the errant unbiblical theology of the new Apostolic Reformation movement.
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  And specifically, it's the Apostolic Authority, this extraordinary Apostolic and prophetic
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  authority that these individuals are claiming is what feeds into this deceptive cover up
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  culture.
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  And so, you know, even if Bethel were to shut down and people were to go to another church,
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  if they find another NAR church, another NAR, new Apostolic Reformation church, you
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  know, there's still going to be victims of spiritual abuse.
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  Even if the apostle or prophet at that new church is not engaging in sexual abuse, even
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  if they're not data mining, there's still victims of spiritual abuse because these apostles
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  and prophets are twisting scripture terribly to support their teachings, their claiming
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  to be apostles and prophets when they're not.
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  So these spiritual abuse runs very deep in this movement.
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  Wow.
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  So much more to get into with Holly Pivic, but I want to direct you to her sub-stack.
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  We'll talk a little bit about that next and something she's doing a monthly Q&A, but
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  it's hollypivic.substack.com.
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  We've got more coming up on World View Matters.
• 15:17
  Register now for the World View Matters Conference May 1st and 2nd in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
• 15:23
  Expert speakers include Alex Newman, Brianna Claasen, Olivier Melnick, Tim Chafee, Mark
• 15:31
  and Amber Archer, Laura Perry Smalls, Jake Jacobs, Jay Seagard, Gary Caw, Scott Shera,
• 15:40
  and Elijah Abraham, Delta Hotel Green Bay May 1st and 2nd.
• 15:45
  Go to worldviewmattersconference.com, that's worldviewmattersconference.com.
• 15:53
  So Holly Pivic is with us and she created a community and you've called it Hold Fast
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  with Holly Pivic and you discuss NAR issues and all this stuff that's going on in the
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  news about these churches, but you also do a monthly Q&A, a live Q&A.
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  Tell us a little bit about what you're doing is that on YouTube.
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  How does that work?
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  How can people get ahold of that?
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  Yeah, so for people, so anybody can follow my sub-stack for free, receive my articles,
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  but for people who join my community and become paid subscribers, I am starting a community
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  for people who have felt very alone out there.
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  They've had concerns about the new Apostolic Reformation, they're trying to figure out
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  how to address their concerns and their church with their loved ones who are still part
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  of this movement.
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  Maybe people are recovering from being part of this movement themselves.
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  I've had all these people join me and more continuing to join me in this community.
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  So we can discuss NAR together, I can answer their questions during Q&A sessions that
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  they have so they can hear from someone who's an expert in this movement, help them
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  understand because there's so many, it can be very confusing to people this movement.
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  And also a book club, which I'm very excited about, where we're actually going to read NAR
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  books together.
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  We're going to start with Bill Johnson's book when heaven invades earth, we're kicking
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  off in a couple of weeks, so your listeners are welcome to join us and what we're going
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  to do is we're going to read and evaluate these books together through scripture and
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  careful logical reasoning, which is in my podcast, I'm always trying to explain to people,
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  those are really the two prongs of biblical discernment, is it our teaching supported
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  by scripture and do they hold up to sound, critical, logical thinking.
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  And so this is a community for just people who want to go deep in discussion, get encouragement
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  from other people who are facing the same challenges from NAR.
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  And you want to want to do some discernment together.
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  So Holly, you're not recommending people read that book on their own as if it's a good
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  book, you're going to discern and dissect that book and talk about the problems with
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  it, right?
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  Just to clarify.
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  Yes, I'm glad you clarified that.
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  No, we are evaluating these books to show where they're wrong and also one concern
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  people have had as they said, you know, I want to join your book club, but I don't want
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  to support, you know, Bill Johnson or these, you know, these other false teachings by
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  buying these books.
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  And what I recommend is I had a professor at Biola, he was a Colts and Apologetics professor
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  and he always said never pay full price for heresy.
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  And so he would tell us, you know, when we're doing research to on Colts or, you know,
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  these Avern groups to buy our books used.
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  And so that's what I tell people is by the books used, you know, you can get them really
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  cheaply and you'll take them off the market.
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  So other people can't read them if you're concerned, you know, about supporting these false
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  teachings.
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  Thank you for clarifying.
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  Okay.
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  I think I saw that.
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  I don't remember.
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  May have been on Facebook or may have been on on your YouTube.
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  I don't know.
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  I saw that that you're going to do that.
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  And I'm thinking, okay, I hope people don't think, hey, that's a great book.
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  I should read it.
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  Holly recommended it.
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  No, she's not.
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  Oh, yeah, I hope not.
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  I better clarify that if there's any confusion.
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  So well, you know, some people don't pay attention to details and they just see your book
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  cover, whatever.
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  We just got to be so careful.
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  And so let's go back.
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  Let's go back a little bit, rewind a little bit and talk about profits.
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  So are you saying that biblically there are no profits today?
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  Right.
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  So in our, what they're claiming is that there are these authoritative profits that hold
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  formal governing offices in the church.
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  This is very different than what Pentecostals and Charismatics have believed.
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  Charismatics and Pentecostals historically have believed that there are profits in the
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  sense of people today who may have the miraculous gift of prophecy that's talked about, for
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  example, and Corinthians.
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  But they would see that gift is not, it's not an authoritative office.
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  This is something that people will share maybe with other individuals or maybe in the
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  context of their local church.
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  But they don't see it as having this authoritative status that so in the new episodic reformation
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  they're claiming there are these formal governing offices of profit and apostle today.
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  And we argue that that they're, you know, biblically that that there's no support for that.
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  We don't really weigh in on on the debate about whether the miraculous gifts continue
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  today or not.
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  And we don't do that because it's really not relevant to our argumentation.
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  There are many Pentecostals and Charismatics who are very concerned about this movement
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  and they believe in the miraculous gifts, but they don't believe that the offices of
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  apostle and profit are for today.
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  And so that's, that debate becomes really a distraction since it's not, it doesn't
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  have any bearing on our argumentation.
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  Okay.
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  Thanks.
• 20:58
  Thanks for explaining that.
• 20:59
  Man, the time's going by really fast with you.
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  So let's go back now to, to Bethel and what's happening there is the cover up culture.
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  Because if you look at generally church history, a lot of churches try to cover up, not
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  just NAR churches, but there's a massive problem now.
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  You say the cover up, or I don't know if it was you or Mike Winger that put it out there
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  that the cover up culture, it's really being abused and NAR is really one of the causes
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  of the cover up culture.
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  Did I get that right?
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  And if so, explain a little bit more.
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  Yeah.
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  So here's the thing.
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  There could be, of course, and there has been terrible abuse from pastors and leaders
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  who are not part of the new Apostolic Reformation movement.
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  It's not limited to the new Apostolic Reformation movement.
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  But the teachings of this movement do present a greater danger for spiritual abuse because
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  whenever you have leaders who are claiming extraordinary authority, they're not just claiming
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  to be pastors or elders.
• 21:55
  Yeah.
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  They have been divinely chosen by God to have authority to give revelation to the global
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  church, to govern tens of thousands of churches at a time as some of these apostles do to
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  make decrees that angels carry out.
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  I mean, they claim that their words must be obeyed or else really your outside of God's
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  will, if you're not accepting their, so they'll even prophesy to individuals.
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  But you're supposed to obey their words.
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  And so the potential for spiritual abuse is much, much greater in an NAR church than
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  even outside, though, of course, it occurs everywhere.
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  Okay.
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  So back to, I know I've got just so many things that we seem to be jumping around a little
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  bit.
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  That's because my brain's working.
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  Okay.
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  I got to go back and ask one more thing about the data mining because I'm thinking how
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  easy is it is to get information on someone, but then I'm thinking, man, psychics probably
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  do this too.
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  Fake psychics and people that claim to have a gift, you know, a spiritual gift, they give
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  the information and it draws people in.
• 23:08
  How do they know that about me?
• 23:09
  Well, they found it on your Facebook or on, I don't know, LinkedIn or whatever your website.
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  So to have the church, someone in the church do this.
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  To me, I guess I'm still thinking how, how awfully deceptive that is and how, man, they're
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  going to have to answer to God for that.
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  But they're fooling people, aren't they?
• 23:30
  You're right.
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  And we talk about that in our book counterfeit kingdom.
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  When we talk about the data mining, there is a guy on YouTube.
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  I can't remember his name now, but he, he doesn't really claim to be a psychic or anything
• 23:41
  like that.
• 23:42
  But he goes around, he'll find out information about people online and he'll go into
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  public places and just walk up to them and start telling them and they're like, whoa, how
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  do you know that?
• 23:50
  Are you a psychic?
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  And he's actually doing it to teach a lesson about how easy it is to find out information
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  about anybody you want to online and so that people will be, you know, more discerning.
• 24:03
  People sometimes don't think that Convin can even be in the church.
• 24:07
  Just, you know, I mean, they're Convin everywhere, you know, it could be a car salesman and
• 24:12
  I don't want to say anything, you know, they're many honorable car salesman, of course.
• 24:16
  But, you know, we started typically think of Convin or like Nigerian scammers or, you
• 24:22
  know, things like that.
• 24:23
  But there are Convin in the church and so people need to be alert to that.
• 24:30
  But even for the profits, the so-called profits in the new apostolic reformation who aren't
• 24:36
  doing data mining, there's still a lot of, you know, their false profits too.
• 24:41
  They might not be data mining, but often they will claim that they receive revelation
• 24:45
  from God and it's just like fortune cookie stuff.
• 24:49
  It's vague, it's unspecific, they're just making it up too.
• 24:53
  So the threat isn't just the data mining profits, although, of course, you know, it's, that's
• 24:58
  just outright fraudulent.
• 25:01
  But the other people who are passing off what they say as prophecy when they're, you know,
• 25:05
  passing themselves off as profits when they're not, it's also very serious as well.
• 25:10
  So, Holly, we're just down to a couple minutes with you and I've been saying, very interesting.
• 25:15
  I'm not saying this is from God, but I've been saying this year that I think one of the
• 25:19
  big words for the church better be discernment.
• 25:22
  I really believe that with all that's going on, not only with what these churches are doing,
• 25:26
  these fake, you know, people saying claiming their gift is from God, but AI and social
• 25:31
  me, other things, we can be deceived so easily.
• 25:35
  What's your words of encouragement for, for Bible-believing Christians just in the
• 25:39
  last minute and a half here, please?
• 25:42
  Yeah.
• 25:43
  I always like to point people to Acts 17-11, we, the example of the Bereans in there, you
• 25:49
  know, when the Apostle Paul came and brought them new teaching that they hadn't heard before,
• 25:56
  it says in Acts 17-11 that they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things
• 26:00
  that Paul taught them were true, if they lined up with the scripture that they already had
• 26:05
  in the Old Testament at that time.
• 26:08
  And we need to follow the example of the Bereans and test everything by scripture, including,
• 26:16
  and especially the claims of people who claim to be modern day apostles and prophets, because
• 26:20
  if even the Apostle Paul's teachings had to be tested by scripture, how much more so
• 26:27
  should the words of anyone who claims to be an apostle or prophet today be tested by scripture?
• 26:32
  Those are very important words, what you just said.
• 26:34
  If the Apostle, Paul's words, were tested and they said, oh, let me check the scriptures
• 26:39
  to make sure what you're saying is accurate.
• 26:41
  That is such a good model, an example for us today, with all the different teachings
• 26:46
  and false, false gospels out there.
• 26:48
  Holly, Pific, thank you for the work you do, Lord willing, we'll do this again, we appreciate
• 26:53
  your voice.
• 26:54
  Go to the website, friends, hollypific.com, follow her on Substack, check out our YouTube
• 26:59
  or podcast.
• 27:00
  Thank you.
• 27:01
  Keep doing what you're doing, sister.
• 27:02
  Thank you so much, David.
• 27:03
  Good talking to you.
• 27:04
  Same here.
• 27:05
  God bless you, friends.
• 27:06
  And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.