Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / My Morning Jacket's Jim James

Transcript

My Morning Jacket's Jim James · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Music has always been an escape for Jim James,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: from the time he started playing guitar as a shy
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: teenager in Louisville, Kentucky through his decades long success as
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: the frontman of My Mowing Jacket, his goal has always
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: been the same, to lose himself in the music. Since
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: starting My Mowning Jacket in nineteen ninety eight, he's released
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: eight albums with the band, along with several critically acclaimed
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: solo and side projects, and despite its prodigious output, Jim
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be running out of material. In July,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: The Jacket released The Waterfall Too, a complete album of
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: holdovers from their twenty fifteen album The Waterfall, and according
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: to Jim, they've got another full album already recorded. Jim's
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: also sitting on a solo project from nineteen ninety eight
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: that he's recently started tinkering with again. On today's episode,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Jim talks to Bruce Headlam about how, after decades of performing,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: he was only recently able to open his eyes on
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: stage and make eye contact with the crowd, and he
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: talks about how My Morning Jacket might not exist if
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: it hadn't been for Kermit The Frog's Rainbow Connection. This
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: justin Richmonds. Just a quick note here. You can listen
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: to all of the music mentioned in this episode on
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: our playlist, which you can find a link to in
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: the show notes for licensing reasons, each time a song
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: all right. Enjoy the episode. Here's Bruce Headlam's conversation with
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Jim James. Tell me about Waterfalls two. Tell me how
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: it all came about. It's definitely not a leftovers record
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: or a B sides record. It's like there was a
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: time when we finished it all where we're like, oh,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll just release this giant quadruple record or whatever,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: you know, of all of the songs. But it just
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: felt like that just would have been too much, and
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: people probably would have missed a lot of the songs,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: just because it's way too much to sort through. Because
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: even like the first Waterfall is still like double vinyl,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: it's still like a long record. I didn't really think
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: about it until the Waterfall two. But I think we
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: built the Waterfall one with a lot of touring in mind.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: You know, oftentimes like we'll think about like, oh, what
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: songs are gonna be good in the set, or this
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: kind of thing will work itself into the sequence of
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: a record as the record sequences itself too, in that
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: magic process. So it's interesting with the Waterfall too. You know,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: there was no touring because it came up the idea
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: that came up to me during the first couple of
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: weeks of Quarantine as a way to like reconnect with
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: fans and reconnect with ourselves as a band, because I
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: had forgotten about it, and I one of the songs
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: came up randomly as I was walking and I was like,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: oh my god, we've still got this whole other record.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: You know, it's done. It's like, there's this would be
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: hopefully a really great thing to release now while we're
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: all trapped in this weird pandemic. So it's interesting because
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the record just like it just went shop and it
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: all sequenced itself really quickly, and I took a couple
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: walks with it to feel the sequence, and it was
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: just so effortless. So when you say you walked with it,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: did you literally just put a sequence on your iPhone
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: or your whatever and then just walk around to see
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: did this feel like a record? That's how I walk,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: and I hike a lot, and uh, that's how I
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: usually work on most music I'm working on, is whether
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I'm mixing something, or writing something, or sequencing something or
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: approving a master or whatever, I'll go hike with it
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and see how it works as a hike. Yeah, that's
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: just how I process it. For whatever reason. When I
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: was listening to it and then I was going back
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: and forth, sort of toggling between the two records. There's
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a lot more heartbreak in this record. It's much more ambivalent.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: It maybe is not the kind of arena rocker record.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: It's it's very hopeful at points. But the first record
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: had more of a drive and I had, you know,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: started with believe and this one, you know, it starts
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: with spinning my wheels. It's it's a very different feel.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Is that a reflection of what you were going through
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: back then or what you're going through now? Do you think? Well,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: it's funny. I think a lot of those songs didn't
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: initially make the Waterfall one because of that reason. We
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: were touring and we were like, oh, let's, you know,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: make it as upbeat as we can and stuff, and
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I had gone through a breakup than, you know, real difficult,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: painful breakup that a lot of those songs came out of.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: And it really is in a lot of ways of
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: breakup record. But I think the reason it resonated with me,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: and maybe the reason it resonates with people now is
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: because it feels like we're breaking up with life in
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways, you know, in this pandemic, it's
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: like we've we can't do so many of the things
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: we used to love to do, and that's so painful.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: So it's like, I didn't really even think about that,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: But if it resonates with somebody, maybe it resonates on
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: that level. Hopefully it's like a comfort to this sadness
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: we're all feeling right now collectively in so many ways,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: you know, that kind of was broken open by the
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: isolation of the pandemic. Why are the albums called Waterfalls? Well,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've just always loved nature, and I've always
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: needed nature to balance the insanity of life on this
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: planet because so many times I don't feel like I'm
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: at home on this planet, and I don't understand people,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: and I don't understand why things are the way they
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: are here, like why is there so much hatred and
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: why is there so much violence and war? So I'll
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: go into nature with the trees and the lake and
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the ocean and feel at peace, you know, with those
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: beings and for me and nature, one of the coolest
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: things is a waterfall. You know, when a water when
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: you see a waterfall, whether it's a little one in
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the woods, or you know, giant snow quality falls or
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Niagara Falls or Multnoma Falls, or it's just always been
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: something that like takes my breath away, you know, and
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: I stand there and I can look at it foreffort,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's like it plays tricks on your
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: mind and you can pretend like you're pausing it or
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: like rewinding it or fast forwarding it. It's just this
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: really amazing thing. So I just thought just to have
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: that thing with the music felt so cool, you know.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I ask because I grew up near Niagara Falls, and
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: you know, the thing about waterfalls is there are a
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: lot of people who when they see waterfalls, it scares
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: them because they feel like they have to jump. You know.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: There's a whole community people around Niagara Falls who plan
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: to go over the falls, even though they know it
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: might kill them and you ask them why and they're
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: just like, I just got to do it. Yeah. In
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Walt Whitman in Song of Myself, there's a very powerful
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: scene where he walks out I think he calls it
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: a headland, but it's like a promontory over a lake
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: and he's feelings. People are laughing at him, and he's
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: writing about being an artist, but it's all that thing
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: like I'm out here and it's beautiful. Do I fall?
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Do I jump? Right? And I just thought of that
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: so much when I was listening to this record. That's
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: what made me think about it in the Waterfalls, because
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: that whole thing of risking your life for the sake
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: of a song is it's kind of like, am I
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: going to jump? Yeah? And that's what a lot of
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: the record feels like to me. No, I love that.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've never thought about that, but that resonates
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: a lot, because, yeah, I feel that for sure with waterfalls.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a great thing about a waterfall too,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: is you can view it from the bottom, you can
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: view it from the top, you know, and when you're
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: at the top, you are like, oh my god, you know,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: like this thing could carry me into the next dimension.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: You know. It's like, if I get on this thing
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: and fried it off, I am probably gonna be gone
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: from this dimension. And yeah, like Niagara, when you're at
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Niagara Falls, You're like, oh my god, Like, if I
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: jump in this water and go over these balls, I'm gone.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: You know, you know, chances are likelihood that I am
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: fucking gone. And that is like what else you know?
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Can you say that about that kind of powerful force
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: that can rip your life away? You know? In nature?
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: I mean so quickly. You know, of course you could
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: drown in a lake or an ocean or whatever. But
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: the waterfalls just like you know, it's like, yeah, it's
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: vine and it's something kind of ecstatic and exciting about
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: it too. Sorry, I hope I'm not ruining waterfalls for you.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: That's not what I meant to do, not at all.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Tell me a bit about spinning my wheels, because it's
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: it's got that. It's not the first line, but that
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: incredible line about wondering about risking your life for the
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: sake of a song, it's very unsettling. Tell me where
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: that came from. Well, I just had been doing that
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: for so many years. I had literally, like been to
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: the hospital three times from injuries that I sustained on tour.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: And I really felt for so long touring was a
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: love hate thing for me because I didn't listen to myself.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I listened to managers, you know, and agents and pressure
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: and you know, you gotta get out there and go
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: on a sixth straight and blah blah blah. You know
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: this this relentless push that so many people, I mean
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: all of us know it in life, no matter what
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: what job we're in. You know, everybody, at a certain
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: point you have this crushing push of life, and if
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: you don't listen to yourself and find some balance, you
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: get hurt. You know, you get injured and literally and metaphysically.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: And I felt for so long that I was fighting
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: that that I kept risking my life over and over
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: again to do this this thing, this touring thing or whatever.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: So I think eventually that's kind of the jacket, kind
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: of I had to put it on hold for a while.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: It takes so much energy. I don't know. If that's
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: one thing people don't don't know or think about when
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: they think about the bands they love or the artists
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: they love or whatever. It's like, if you're fortunate enough
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: to keep going for a long time, there's so much
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: energy that you have to summon. You know. We've been
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: touring now for over twenty years or whatever, so a
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: lot of these songs I have to find the pain
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: of the twenty two year old me or whatever, even
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: though I'm a forty year old or whatever, you know.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: And it's like, it's this wild thing that takes up
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: so much energy, and if you're not careful with that energy,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: it can kill you. It's like playing with electricity or something. Yeah,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: and you're famous for your live shows. They're electric. They're
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: huge experiences for people. It's not like, yeah, I saw them,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: they played the songs I liked. It's like, oh my god,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I saw my morning jacket. People go to feel something,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: to be transformed, that's what we hope. I mean, thanks,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: I don't you know. It's like, live music to all
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: of us has always been such a healing thing, you know,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: so we want to be a part of that circle
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: of healing. Yeah, when you see a live concert that
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: moves you with people, you know again, it's that thing.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: It heals you so much. We need that so much
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: right now, and that's we're missing it during the pandemic,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's this fucking like nightmare, you know.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: That's uh, yeah, it's it's such a powerful experience. So
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: tell me a bit about growing up in in Louisville.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: You had a great quote once I read that everybody
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: in the North thinks Louisville's in the south. Everybody in
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: the South thinks Louisville is in the north. What kind
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: of town was it when you grew up there? Yeah,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: I mean that's why I've always loved it. It's it's
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: such a mysterious and strange place. I feel like there's
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: so many ghosts here, and there's so many The nature
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: here is amazing, Like the trees are amazing, and the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: spirits are amazing. There's a lot of creative energy here,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: but there's also a lot of darkness, you know, and
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of the horrors of the past of
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: the United States, you know, the horrors of slavery and
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: the the horrors of you know, Louisville being such a
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: strange place because, yeah, what it wasn't north, and it
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: wasn't south, but it kind of was north and you know,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: on the underground railroad a lot of people would escape.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: And we went down some friends and I went down
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and stood on the banks of the Ohio River a
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago and stood where fleeing slaves would
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: stand before they tried to cross the Ohio River to
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: get to this steeple on the other side in Indiana
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: as this beacon that once they got to this steeple,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: they were probably going to be free. What was it
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: like to stand there and look, I mean, I'm tearing
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: it up thinking about it now, you know, it's like
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: just standing there thinking about because that there's a part
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: of town called Portland in Louisville. That was where Louisville
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: came up, and it was the shipping port on the
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Ohio River. So there's a lot of you know, everything,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of slave trading, a lot of merchandise and
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: everything in the town came from there, and a lot
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: of that. All the buildings and stuff or have been
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: gone or have changed, but there's still a lot of
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: old houses there that they're like that house used to be,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: you know, where abolitionists would hide slaves right before they
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: broke across the river to freedom, or that was a
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: jail where they would capture slaves and you know, all
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: this stuff, all this energy down there. You know, Louisville
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: is still battling today with the death of Brianna Taylor
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and all of the systemic racism that you know, we're
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: battling as a country, But in Louisville it's resonating at
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: a really, really high frequency right now, which I think
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: is is really hopeful in a lot of ways, because
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: hopefully this energy can continue and push to more equality
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: and more fairness and real justice. And but it's it's
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: a Yeah, Louisville's a fascinating place. We should go back, though.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: So tell me about your family growing up. You know,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: for all intensive purposes, normal middle class family. We struggled
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: for a while and you know, never had much money,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: and moved to Atlanta, Georgia for a couple of years
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: and moved back to Kentucky. But always had a really
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: great and supportive family, Like always had people I could
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: depend on. Was there music at home growing up? You know,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of music. Like my parents there
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: was like music on in the car or whatever. They
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: were casual music fans. And luckily when I was a kid,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of great just kind of oldies radio
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: on with whatever Motown or Simon and Garfuncle or you know,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: whatever would be on the oldies radio. So I think
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of that one into my brain. Was there
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: a point, was there a record? Was there a song
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: that when you heard it you said, oh, yeah, that's
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that's what I want to do. Yeah. I had several
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: of those moments, you know. I mean the first one
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: was the Muppet Show, seeing the Muppet Show band the
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Electric Mayhem. You're the first first musician I know whose
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: favorite band growing up was with the Muppets. Man, Well,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: you saw them, and I remember, you know, even seeing
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Kermit sing the Rainbow Connection. You know, I just would
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: see that and I'd be like, oh my God, Like
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: what is that power he has? You know, what what
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: is he doing? You know? And how do I do that?
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: You know, like how do I sit on a log
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: with a banjo and make that sound that affects people?
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Like this is affecting me, you know. And then as
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I grew older, I remember seeing Neil Young on Saturday
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Night Live to Harvest Moon. You know, that was a
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: really turning point for me because we my mom and
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I were up late watching Saturday night live and he
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: played and his tech was sweeping the broom, you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: and keeping the rhythm on the broom. And we both
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: watched that and we're so moved by it. And the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: next day my mom bought me Harvest accidentally instead of
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Harvest Moon. You know, she was like, here's that record.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: We listen, here's what we saw Neil Young play last night.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh cool. And I put it
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: on and I was like, holy shit, you know, like
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: this wasn't Harvest Moon. You know, that's a whole other thing,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: you know. So I was just like, I never forget
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: it in the basement listening to that fucking record, you know,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: and just like that was definitely a current the frog moment,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you know, of seeing Neil and at that time too,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: grunge was blowing up, so you know, seeing Kurt Comain,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: seeing Michael Stipe was huge for me. R EM was
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: a huge thing of seeing like these weird dudes from
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: the South, you know, that are like making this weird
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: music that is having this beautiful effect on the world.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: You know, I'll never forget seeing r EM and being like, maybe, gosh,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: maybe I could do that. You know. It's like because
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I never felt like I could do hair metal, which
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: I was also into at the time and was so popular,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: and I was like, man, I don't know if I
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: can do the hair metal thing, you know, like I
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: don't think I don't think I can accomplish that. But
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: was it the hair or the metal? Because you got
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: nice hair? Said, well, it was just so aggressive. There
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: was this big, aggressive thing going on, you know, and
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: it's like this big you know, as a kid, you
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: watch that and you're like, shit, well, I gotta have
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: a costume, and I gotta have, you know, leather outfit,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and I gotta have these fucking walls and stacks, you know,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: and all this shit, all the things that went with it.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: You know that that you're like, shit, is that what
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: you have to have if you're gonna be in a
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: rock and roll man? You know, because I didn't have
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: older I didn't have any older siblings to tell me
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: about lou Reid or tell me about you know, Chuck
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Barrier or older rock and roll. So I kind of
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: like was born into rock and roll thinking it was
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: a heavy metal or whatever, you know, and then then
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: you see Nirvana and you see r Em and you know,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you see these bands that also talk about their influences.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: So you start going back and you're like, oh, fuck,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I missed the whole. You know, first couple of chapters
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you were saving up for a banjo and a log.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: So have you actually ever played Rainbow Connection? Yeah? I
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: played it a couple of times. Oh really, what's it
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: like to play? It's amazing? I mean it's a master work.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: You know. It's like Paul Williams wrote that song and
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I mean Rainbow Connection again. It's like it's like lean
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: on me or imagine or stand by me. You know,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: it is one of our greatest songs as a humanity.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Jim James after
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: the break. Before we jump back into Bruce Headlam's conversation
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: with Jim James, let's hear an acoustic performance of Spinning
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: My Wheels from My Mowning Jacket's new album, The Waterfall Too.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Was a guitar your first instrument? Yeah? And when did
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: when did that start? Like seventh grade? Do you remember
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: what your guitar was back then? Yeah, I've I've got
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of which one I've got because
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: I got like my uh my great aunt aunt Betty
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: was kind of like my grandmother in a lot of ways,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: and she was a real big yard sale nut, you know,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: so she knew I was getting into guitar and she
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: got me this real cool, you know, no name brand,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: little fifties guitar or whatever for thirty bucks at a
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: yard sale. So I had that. And then my parents
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: got me an acoustic for Christmas that was really cool.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: And then my uncle loaned me some money that I
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: had to work at his paper company to pay him
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: back for this like other like cheap squire strat, and
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: I still got all three of those guitars. They all
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: kind of came around the same time. And then there
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: was just like a scene in Louisville, right like a
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: good a lot of musicians where there were a lot
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: of clubs. Why were there so many bands there? That
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: was a wild scene. So I kind of came in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: on the tail end of that scene. It was really
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: difficult scene. It was really really pretentious, and there was
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of like just like kind of snobbery, and
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a very healthy place, but there was some
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: really great music that came out of it. And you know,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: as a little kid, you know, let's say whatever, eighth grade,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: sophomore in high school. Whenever you're first going to shows,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: you know, you want to be welcomed into these places,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: you know, but instead you go and it's like everybody's
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: too cool for school, and it's kind of you know,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: it's kind of this metaphysical thing where you feel kind
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: of like, shit, you know, I'm not cool enough to
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: be here or whatever. But around that there grew another
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: community of people who felt like that, who also created
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: this beautiful scene of a more welcoming thing. So there's there,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: always has been, and there always will be a really vibrant,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: beautiful musical community here. That's uh, you know, so many
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: different styles of music and just things. But yeah, that
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: scene in the in the early nineties Louisville scene was
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: incredibly popular and incredibly resonated, really big, but it was
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: a really tough place to be. It's funny how local
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: scenes they're either like the Seattle scene was in the
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: early nineties, which there's actually those bands got along and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: they liked each other and they played with each other.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Or they're like the sort of New York folks scene.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: They're not cooperative, they're competitive, and it gets a very
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: cutthroat and as you said, people looking down another. You're
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: playing the wrong song, you're playing the wrong instrument, you know,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: you're doing the wrong thing. But you found a group
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: of people who are not like that. Yeah. Yeah, a
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: group of people who could could just watch each other struggle,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: you know, and enjoy it and laugh about it, you know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: like just just to have fun, you know, to be
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: all be a part because we're all struggling, you know that.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And that's one reason I think a lot of us
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: love music so much, because it helps you get through
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the struggle. You've got a there's a strong spiritual element
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: to your songs, and certainly the way you talk about it,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: there's a strong spiritual element, and you really, you really
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: feel about music that it's a kind of restorative thing
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: in people's lives. Did you go to church when you
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: were a kid. Where did that sense come from, that
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: spiritual sense? Well, it was my church. I am a
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: recovering Catholic. I was raised Catholic and I'm still recovering
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: from that. I've never been able to really get down
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: with any kind of organized religion, like I don't. I don't.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I also don't look down on it. Whatever people want
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: to do is that was fine with me, but it
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: never worked for me. So I always found religion in
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: music and in nature. I feel like those were the
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: only places I ever felt like my life mattered or
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: that it made sense at all. That was the only
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: way I could find peace, you know. And then once
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: you start growing up and learning about people like George
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Harrison or Alice Coltrane or you know, people that really
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: started to explain to you the spiritual side of music,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: you know, and that music is indeed healing, and indeed
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: there are spiritual and scientific principles behind notes and frequencies
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: and chords, and you know these things that in the
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: music of the earth, you know, the music of nature,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: the music of the birds, the music of the waterfalls.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: You know, all these things that a lot of times
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: we don't even realize our music as well. Do you
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: take that with you into the concert hall, because your
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: concerts are you know, people describe your concerts as religious experiences,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: not that they're converted to anything, but they're they're bigger
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: than themselves. They feel connected in a way. Is that
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: something you aim for or is it about your relationship
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: with the audience. Where does that come from? Definitely. I mean,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you aim for it, you don't always get there, you know,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: but the goal is to get lost, right, The goal
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: is to be gone, you know, I think for all
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: of us. And I I played a rally the other
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: day for Amy McGrath here in Kentucky, and I hadn't
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: played a show in for I can't remember the last
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: time I play a show and I only played two songs.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: It was just a kind of rally thing, and I
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: realized again that thing. I was like, there are these
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: moments when the gateway is open, like the portal is open,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: and I'm gone, and then there's moments when I'm back
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh shit, it's my guitar and tune
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: or it's kind of cold out here, you know, and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: you're back on the earth thinking about all the shit
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: that you think about. But when you're gone, you're gone,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: and you're in touch with everything. You know, You're in
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: touch all of life forces in touch. I feel like
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: when when we're in that state and you know, you
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: can get there through meditation, or you can get there
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: through love or sex, or you can get there through music,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: or you can get there through nature. So yeah, I
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: hope when people come see our concerts. That can happen
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: for them too, you know, they can I can get
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: there so that they're not on the earth anymore, and
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: we're all united on this other plane that we don't
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: have words for. And you kind of come and go,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: you know, you step behind the veil and you're gone
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: on and you wake up and you're like, oh shit,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I gotta go pee, or I gotta go get a
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: beer from the bar, or somebody just knocked into me,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: or whatever brings you back to earth. It sounds like
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: you remember that experience of going into clubs when you
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: were a kid and not feeling welcome. Oh yeah, there
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: are things you do to make your audience feel welcome
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: or tricks you do. I mean, we always want everybody
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: to feel welcome, because that's one thing as a kid,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and you know, like going to this scene, this this
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: snobbish scene in Louisville, like I never felt welcome going
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: to a Catholic grade school in high school, I never
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: felt welcome. You know. I always felt like the outcast,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: kind of freak or whatever. And it's like, you know,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that's kind of all
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: of our job to realize we're all in the same boat.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: You know, we're all some blend of unique freakishness in
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: a beautiful way, no matter what you are, no matter
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: how normal you think you are or how weird you
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: think you are. So it's like music is one of
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: the best ways to unify on that, you know. So
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I think we try to do everything we can to
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: let everybody know that they're welcome and that this is
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: all about equality and inclusion and safety and love and peace.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: And you know, how can we be as much of
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: a force of love as possible. I'm wondering, when you're playing,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: do you do you ever look out and see somebody
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: who reminds you of you back when you weren't feeling
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: so welcome. That's a great question, you know what. It's wild.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: For the longest time, I couldn't look at people like
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I couldn't handle it. I mean for years, when we
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: first started playing, I had my hair in my face
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and I had and for years I had sunglasses on.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: For a lot of times, I can't. It's so intense
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: that I can't handle it. For years I couldn't, And
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: then two or three years ago something changed and I
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: could handle it. And now I like it now, I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: like looking out and finding people and looking into people's
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: eyes and trying to see people, you know, And I've
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: never thought about it that way, but I definitely you
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: see people throughout the thing. You know, you see somebody
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and you're like, oh man, they look lost, or you
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: see somebody crying, or you see somebody fucking throwing their
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: beer in the air and screaming, you know, enjoy. And
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: it's so it's like, that's a wild thing to be
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: on stage and see that many different emotions, you know, like,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: was it just was it just too intense for you before?
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: You couldn't it was too intense and I was too shy,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: and I was too nervous, and I was too because
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of times too you'll look at people and
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: they've got their arms crossed and they look like they
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: hate it, you know. And until I realized, I was like,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I probably look like that a lot of my favorite shows.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: You know, if I'm like kind of bummed or whatever,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be dancing and throwing a beer around,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: even though I'm like loving the show, you might look
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: at me and I'm like, you know, and when you
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: see people as a performer, I look in the crowd,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: and I used to see somebody like that, but I'll
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: be like, oh shit, we're doing terrible this is a
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: terrible show. I'm doing terrible job, you know. And it's
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: like I would get focused on that one person that
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: looked bummed and missed all the other people that looked joyful.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: You know. I just couldn't handle that for a year,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: for the majority of our career. Wow, is it nicer
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: to play now? Oh yeah, Oh my god, it's incredible.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I mean it's only the last two or three years
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: or whatever that I've flipped the page and gotten into
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: enjoying it. And now it'spec, you know. And it's so
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: funny because the Jacket was on break for a long
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: time and we got together and did these four shows,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: two at Red Rocks and to New York, and those
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: shows were probably my favorite shows of my life. You know.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: It's like they were so beautiful and so all career spanning,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and I felt so present and so connected, and it's
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: like I could look into people's eyes and I didn't
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: feel the need for any costumes or any tricks or
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: you know, it's just like, let's go live or die,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: but with the music I'm gonna walk out here in
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: my fucking T shirt with my guitar and I'm gonna
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: look you in the eye. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: try to look you in the eye, and I'm gonna
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: fucking live or die. And that's it, you know, that's
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: the end of the thing. And it was so beautiful,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and then the fucking pandemic hits. You know, it's like
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and that's like stop. You know, right when we were like,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: oh right, this is awesome, I'm like, I'm ready to
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: do this. So now it's like, you know, we're all
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: on pause or whatever. So whenever it comes back, it's like,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I get teared up thinking about it. How powerful it's
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: gonna be for all of us to go to concerts again.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: You know, when when we can all get together again,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: it is gonna be like fucking crazy. We'll be right
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: back with more from Jim James after the break. We're
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: back with Jim James and Bruce Hadlow. You've done a
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: lot of covers. You did an album of Harrison covers.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: He did the New Basement Tapes, which were you and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of other great musicians, Elvis Costello and Mumfords
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and many people writing songs to Bob Dylan lyrics and
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: you did the same thing with Woody Guthrie. What was
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: it like to write to somebody else's lyrics? So cool?
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, couldn't have better lyrical uh, you know than
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Dylan and Guthrie. You know, it's like so because we
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: did the Woody Guthrie one first, and being at the
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Guthrie archives, like seeing all his massive output of lyrics
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: like everywhere on grocery receipts and bags, and you know,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: there's piles, mountains and mountains and mountains of lyrics that
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: this guy wrote, you know, and it's like, you know,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: and obviously he was no longer with us, so there
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: was a lot of I would try and find him
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: out there, you know, as I was writing these music
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: and try and get his blessing and bring him in
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: and hope that he was good with what was going on.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: And with the Dylan thing was so crazy because they
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: like brought all these lost lyrics that he had written
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: back in the Woodstock basement tape days or whatever, and
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: we're sitting here looking at like the actual pieces of paper,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: the literal pieces of paper that he wrote all this
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: shit on and you're like, motherfucker's still alive. You know.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: It's like, I hope he likes this stuff. You know.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: It's like so I'd like tried to find him, you know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: and and and look to him for guidance, you know,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: in the ether or whatever, even though he's still alive.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And the first day we were there, somebody's like Jones
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: across the hall like some other records, and we were
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: all like, oh shit, we were all like super terrified,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: were like, I hope he was a stop pot. You know.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: It was like it was so funny. Did you end
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: up meeting them then or since then? No. We toured
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: with the Dylan years ago, and uh I got to
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: sing on stage with him a couple of times, which was,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: you know, beyond an honor to say the least. He
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: brought Jeff Tweedy and myself out. We were on tour
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: with Wilco and Dylan, and we we stag with him
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: six or seven times throughout the tour. But never did
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: you see him off stage. You know, he was not.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: It's like his bus rolls up five minutes before he plays.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: He walks off this bus on the stage, plays the
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: songs he gets back on the bus and rolls away.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: You know, that's he's not there at all. He's gone,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: you know, so just see him like that's that's song.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not there right right. It was so crazy. So
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: you're like the only time I've ever seen him was
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: up there on that stage. Wow. It was so wow. Yeah,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: you just you couldn't walk up with a couple of
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: beers and say hey, hey, why didn't you join us?
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: It was well, that's how they pitched the tour to
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: us like that, and that's why we were so excited
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: about the tour. They were like, Dylan wants to collaborate
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: with some younger vands and like, we'll have you guys, Wilco.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: And you know, we pictured ourselves like sitting around the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: camp fire and being like, let's do desire and it's
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: entirety tonight, Bob bells that sound you're like, or like
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: let's write a new song or whatever, you know, and
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: we pictured all this collaboration and all these high jinks
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: and stuff, and we get on tour and it's like
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: he is not there for h you know, for like
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the first two or three weeks, we didn't even hear
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: anything about any uh, collaborations or anything. And then one
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: day his bass player, Tony walks up to us at
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: dinner and hands us the CD of this Reverend Gary
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Davis song and he's like, I think Bob wants wants
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: you guys to come sit in with him tonight, you know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: and and uh, and we were like wow, you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: just like out of the blue. And then Uh, I
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: had heard this before, but he notoriously likes to change
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the key, I guess, and I don't know thing about
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: keys or anything, you know. So Jeff and I are
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: like rushing to learn this song before we go play
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: it with him, you know. And we're like backstage with
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: our guitars and we like finally kind of learn it,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: and literally like ten minutes before we're getting ready to gone,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the guitar tech comes back and he's like, oh, I
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: think Bob wants to do it and B flat and
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: stood a D diminished or whatever the original king was.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: So we're like, oh shit. We run back into catering.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: We're like using our capos around like trying to figure
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: out it was. I mean, I don't think I've ever
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: been more nervous in my life. It was so funny.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Did it come off though I don't know, I don't know.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I who knows. I hope. So he's so
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: fucking cool though, because you look over at him and
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: he I mean talk about gone. I mean that dude
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: is like you look over at Bob and he is
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: not there in the coolest way, you know what I mean,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: It's like he is. I don't know what where he
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: is or what's going on, but it was inspiring to
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: look over there and see that far away look in
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: his eyes, like in a in an inspiring way, not
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a not a vacant way, you know. It was like
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: like he you know, for so many of us, he
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: is such a channel, you know, and it's like to
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: see see up see him that close, like it was.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: It was really beautiful. I am interested that did you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: were there things about writing to his lyrics that when
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: you were writing the songs and the songs you wrote
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: are they're very different sounding, particularly on the on the
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: on the New Basement tapes, like you really take his
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: songs in kind of different directions. No, one, it doesn't
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: sound like a Bob Dylan tribute album sounds like you
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: really transform them, right, But when you were doing them,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: where you were going, I see what he did here,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this on my next album. Where there
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: were there tricks you saw or things he did you thought, Okay,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: that's great, I'm gonna I'm gonna use that. I mean
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: probably subliminally, you know. I mean, there's been so much
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: of his music that's informed and inspired so much of
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: my music. You know. It's like, so I don't think
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: consciously I wrote there's still four or five songs that
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: I wrote and re recorded that didn't get released or whatever.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: So I wrote eight or nine songs. And after I'm
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: trying to think of what we did after that. I
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: think we did the Waterfall after that. I think maybe
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: one thing that I did learn was just to try
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: and be less precious with things, because that was one
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: thing that is well known about the Basement Tapes is
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: there's so much information, you know, beyond what was released
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: as the original Basement tapes. You know, now there's been
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: box sets released and all the stuff of all the
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Basement tapes. And then to learn there were this project
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: we did even more lyrics you know, that never got music.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: And the beautiful thing about it was is you could
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: feel he wasn't being precious about it because some of
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: these lyrics are hilarious, you know, some of them are goofy.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Some of them are heartbreakingly crushingly sad. You know, some
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: are the most beautiful poetry you've ever read. And as
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I went into the future from that, I was like,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: let's just let it be. You know, this stuff comes
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: from wherever it comes from, and I'm just gonna let
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: something be goofy, or I'm gonna let it be half finished,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: or I'm gonna let it be complete and beautiful and
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: heartbreaking or monumental, you know, whatever the thing is trying
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: to be, instead of trying to change it too much,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let it be what the universe wants
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: it to be. What's writing like for you? Now? Are
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: you writing currently? I'm always kind of writing, but I've
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: been so bummed during this whole pandemic that it's like
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like, and I know a lot of people
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: can probably relate to this, I feel like most days
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: you're just trying to keep your head above water, you know,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: of just like the horror of the current administration and
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: the horror of the political landscape, and you know, hoping
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: that there's a vaccine, you know, hoping all these things.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: I feel like this is such a time where we're
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: all like just trying to like get through each day.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: You know, we're doing fine. Has become the new great.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're doing you're doing fine, that's all
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: you're you're having to all of a day. So a
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: lot of days I don't have the metaphysical energy to
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: work on things, but I'm still collecting. Ideas are coming,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: and I collect them on my voice memil so I
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: don't forget them so I can work on them. And
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I've also been going through I've got a lot of
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: older albums that I've made, and I've been working on
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of older stuff, like trying to finish older stuff.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And that's been really healing for me because that's been
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: a different part of my brain. That's like a I
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: can still be productive and creative, but I'm not using
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: this whatever part of your brain you use when you're
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: working on brand new things. If that makes sense, Can
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: you work on old stuff and not be too hypercritical,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: not look and say, ah, what was I thinking? And
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't have done that? And you know what interested
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: me about waterfalls is is that you just took those
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: songs from five years ago, and you didn't say, you know,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: we got to fix this. That was why was I
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: doing Anybody else would feel self conscious, but you're like, no,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: it's what they are. That's the thing. It's all the
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: time machine, you know. It's all for me now to
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: go fix that thing. It's kind of like breaking the
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: space time continuum or whatever. And I'm not even saying
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: you can't or you shouldn't do that, because there are
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: no rules to anything, so people should do whatever they
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: want musically. But for me, that's one of the coolest
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: things about music or a career trajectory is you get
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: these little time machine snapshots of a person over all
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: these years. So the person I was when I made
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: the waterfall a completely different person, you know. And I
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: was a heartbroken person and all this energy that's so different.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm literally you know, they say your cells regenerate
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: every seven years or whatever, so you're literally a completely
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: different person physically too. But it's interesting because I have
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: this record I made years ago, like in nineteen ninety
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: eight or something that I made with one of my
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: buddies who's now passed away, and actually Patrick from my
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Morning Jacket played drums on it, and it's been sitting
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: there forever, and for years I've just been like, there's
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: so much I like about it, but you know, it's real,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: not recorded that well, and there's a lot of mistakes
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: and YadA YadA, YadA, and I'm like, oh jeez, Louise.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: But just recently I was like, I'm just just gonna
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: finish this fucking thing and just let it be as
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: it was. You know, it's like here it is. If
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: you like it, great, if you don't great, you know,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. It's just like it's fun. It's fun
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: for me to like feel this cool old time machine
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: because back then I was obsessed with it. I love
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: it was like, I fucking it was all I could
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: think about. You. Also, you've done a couple of interesting things,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: because you know, I tend to think of you as
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: like a you're a rock guy, so you're thinking of
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: guitar licks and solos and lyrics. But you did this
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: this great cover of the Brian Wilson song I just
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Wasn't made for these times, and you you sampled an
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: old Isaac Hayes song for it that's kind of like
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: almost a hip hop mentality. It's like a collage. You're
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: putting things together there. Do you do a lot of
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: that kind of experimentation too? Oh yeah, I mean I've
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: always loved sampling and uh, I mean, if you think
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: about it, everything sampling. You know, if you play a
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: C and a G chord, how many fucking people have
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: played C and G chords before you or whatever? You know,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: it's it's all, yeah, you don't know if you talk
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: to their lawyers though, that's the well, yeah that is true.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: But but it's interesting though, when you think about the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: way that like literal sampling started just as a necessity
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, it's like people started looping these
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: passages so they could speak their mind and speak their
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: lyrics over this passage because they didn't have a guitar,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: or they didn't you know whatever, they didn't have a
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: drum kit, so they had a recorded drum kit that
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: they could loot, you know, from an old James Brown
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: record or whatever. And it's like the I just wasn't
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: made for these times. Thing was so cool because I
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: had written liner notes for a reissue of Hot Buttered Soul,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: and when I did that, they sent me stems from
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of my favorite stacked songs, like they sent
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: me the swims from a Hot Buttered Soul and from
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: what you see is what you get, and like several
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: snack songs. So when whenever I had heard, I was
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: obsessed with Hot Buttered Soul for years. Like to me,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Hot Buttered Soul is like Dark Side of the Moon
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: in its scope and psychedelic landscape yet orchestral as It's
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: just a phenomenal record. And whenever I would hear by
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the time I get to Phoenix, I would in my mind,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I'd always start singing I just wasn't made for these
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: times for some reason. I don't know why. I just
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: that would always happen for me, because there's a large
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: lead up. By the time I get to Phoenix is
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: like nineteen minutes long, and the first eight minutes is
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: just Isaac Hay's talking over this single organ note in
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: this tinging high hat or whatever. And in my mind,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: whenever we would listen to that record, I would kat
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: looking for you know, I would sing the Beach Boys song,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: and when I got the stems, I was like, oh fuck,
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I can like make this into the Beach Boys song.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: It was so cool. Are you gonna be one of
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: those stem collectors now, like quest love, because because that's
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: a deep habit. Oh my god. Yeah, all the stems
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: that you find whenever. I mean I'm not like obsessed
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: like looking for it, but whenever somebody sends me something,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: or you get to hear the stems of your favorite records,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: you know, like like what's going on? Like the stems
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: to that. I mean when you get to hear Marvin
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Gays isolated vocal and you're there in the vocal booth
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: with him hearing his like feet scratch around or hearing
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: him adjust to headphones or whatever. You know, all this
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: shit that's in your song that you don't hear, it's
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: all subliminal because it's all mixed in there. But when
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: you get to hear that ship or hear like James
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Jamerson's Baseline isolated or the strings like it is, mind blow.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Does the world miss the sort of big albums like
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, Hotbuttered Soul, What's going On, Dark Side of
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: the Moon. Whether people like that music or not, they
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: were just big. They took up a lot of room.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: You kind of couldn't get around them if you if
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: you were alive and listening to the radio. You knew
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: what those were. You know, Otis Redding's Blue, Sergeant Pepper,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: whatever album, you know, rumors, whatever you want to say,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Is there something about those that were missing now in
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: the world those kind of big statements. No, No, I
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: think there's so many bands making so many great records,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: so much amazing music right now. I think the only
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: thing that people don't realize is that back then they
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: were like a couple of mirrors through which almost everybody
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: saw music, you know, And with the Internet, it's like
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: somebody took a hammer and shattered the mirrors into thousands
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: of pieces. So now it's not as easy to have
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: a cultural moment. You know, we don't get these cultural
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: moments anymore because everybody's all fragmented, and it's like, you
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: like indie dance pop, then you're fragmented into this mirror shard.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Or you like hip hop, you're over here, you know,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: And it's like, and there are those of us who
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: are trying to look at all of the shards because
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: we love all types of music. But I feel like
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: grunge was maybe the last era, or that era or
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: even slightly after that was like there there were these
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: moments of galvanized albums like a clemini by Outcast or
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: you know, just like whatever, even Nirvana, Nevermind or whatever,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Michael Jackson's Thriller or what. You know, these these moments
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: of like albums that were like not only were they
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: artistic in mind expanding, but they're also phenomenally commercially successful.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: You know that. That's where I think we don't see
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: that anymore because everything's shattered and albums sales have been
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: stolen from artists. So now it's like they're still artists
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: making statements and making incredible music, but it's all it's
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: like you have to find it in this sea of
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: sea of illusions, you know, and it's like and you
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: have to find it on your your phone or your
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: fucking computer. And I know I'm sick of screens, you know,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: but we kind of have to use them, especially during
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: the pandemic. I'm I'm grateful for them. Okay, what's next
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: for you? I don't know. I mean, I hope, God,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: isn't it wild. I have no idea, you know, I
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: just hope to be a lot. You know. It's like
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I hope that we're all free, you know. I hope
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: that we're all working towards equality. I hope we all
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: can somehow managed to all get healthcare. I hope we
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: can all stay safe and healthy and not get this
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: fucking virus. I hope that a cure or a treatment
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: or whatever comes soon so we can all get back
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: out there and enjoy life the way it's meant to
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: be enjoyed, you know, and like and like people are saying,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: I really believe, let's not go back to normal, you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: let's go forward. Okay. When you think about the future
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: and you think about getting up on stage when this
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: is all over and there's a crowd in front of you,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: what's the song you're gonna play? Wow, that's a great,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: great funt. I don't know, because there's so many songs
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: we haven't played, you know, there's so many songs we
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: have played, and there's so many songs we haven't I mean,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: by the time that happens, I don't I don't know.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've already got a whole new Jacket record
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: and we've got this new Waterfall two things. So we've
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: already got like two whole records full of music that
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: that we have never played. Gosh, I don't know. It's
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be a very overwhelming moment. But I've also
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: realized that I think we all tend to think in
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: terms of these kind of yes or no moments, like
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: and I've realized it's not going to be that way,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: because it's gonna be a slow trickle back in. As
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: I realized the other day when I played this rally,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: it's like whenever my morning Jackie gets to play a
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: concert again, it's not gonna be you know, nine thousand
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: screaming people at Red Rocks. It's gonna be socially distanced.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Everybody's kind of scared coming back in. You know, there's
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: some masks, there's a you know, wherever it is, it's outdoor.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be a gradual thing where I feel like
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: we're all gonna have to hold each other's hands back
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: into this thing, you know, and yeah, move slowly back in,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: you know, because people are fucking broke too, and every
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: band's going to be coming back on the road, you know.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: And so you've got every band coming back on the road,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: and you're broke. You know, It's it's Thursday night in
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Oklahoma City and fucking five of your favorite bands are
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: in town. You know, what do we do. You know,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: we've got to be flexible with the idea of ticketing
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and prices, and you know, hopefully we can have some
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: kind of sliding scale system in place so people with
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: no money can come to the show. It's gonna be nuts.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: I guess you're like anybody else. You need a plan
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: for reopening. Totally listen. It's been fantastic talking to you.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: It's been just wonderful. It's a great record. Thank you
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: so much for it. Thank you, and thank you for
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: talking and best of luck with everything you too. Thanks
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: so much. Thanks to jim James for recording songs for
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: us and catching us up on everything he's been up
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: to while in quarantine. You can hear our favorite my
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: Morning Jacket in Jimmy James Songs on a playlist at
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: broken record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: There you can find extended cuts of new and old episodes.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and his executive Produced by mil Lobell.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: review us on your podcast. Dad A theme musics by
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond bass