Latest / The Growth Project / Episode 387: Transitioning from Doing the Work to Developing People

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Episode 387: Transitioning from Doing the Work to Developing People · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  One of the misconceptions out there, I think tends to be is later there's that that old myth of like, man, I can't wait to become a leader because then we get to do it my way, right in my that I get to do this or that and I think in reality it needs to be more about you actually giving up
• 0:18
  preferences. And you're thinking more about what is the team need, what's best for the team. It's less about what's best for me.
• 0:26
  Welcome to The Growth Project, a podcast brought to you by AMP. In the studio today,
• 0:31
  doctor drew brand.
• 0:32
  Brannon, welcome to the show. Great to be here. Yeah, I always love the time that we shared it for a podcast, because we both lead such busy lives and such busy work that it really gives us a chance. It's a way for us to brainstorm and bring some of these ideas, that you and I think through a lot.
• 0:49
  But I enjoy the conversation and discussion. And so if you are new to the podcast, this is the growth project. We're we're coming up on ten years of trying to produce a podcast that is relevant, that is meaningful, that really helps you in your life to kind of be who you want to be and pursue the things you want to pursue.
• 1:09
  And so this is a topic, drew, that has been, you know, ever since we started the corporate space. That comes up over and over again. And it's that transition from individual contributor to a manager or a leader. And, and we just want to talk about kind of what makes this transition so difficult. And so your opening thoughts and comments on this promotion and why it may be the most difficult one in a person's life.
• 1:40
  Yeah I think it's a I always love the topics that we can get into. On the growth project that truly transcend like all industries. So it doesn't matter what industry you're in, what your product offering is like. This happens in every organization, and it's simply the people that you have that you would call your individual contributors. Now there's a bunch of things that can mean, obviously, whether they're producing widgets or they're fulfilling a professional service, whatever it is, like they're delivering the good and service, and they've done that pretty well for some length of time.
• 2:15
  They naturally then become who we think of as like, oh, well, then it's time for him or her to get promoted, right? So like every organization typically functions in a way where you have your individual contributors, they all report to somebody. And typically that would be like a first, what we might call kind of like a first line leader.
• 2:33
  Maybe it's a supervisor, a manager or whatever you call that person. And we've seen it so many times over the years, is we take these folks who are doing really well as an individual contributor, and we assume, well, they're the best people to be the leaders of the contributors. And I think is is. Yeah. And in fairness, it's a pretty intuitive conclusion to come to of like, hey, you're great at doing this.
• 2:57
  Well, naturally, then we want you to be in charge of people who are doing this, and it doesn't impact. Yeah, you can impact the organization because you're so good here. But we and I agree with you. It's a valid assumption and it works on a lot of times. But a lot of times it doesn't. And a lot of times it's more painful than it needs to be.
• 3:15
  Yeah. For everybody. Yes. Right. For everybody. So let's I guess maybe the place to start would be to begin thinking about what are some of the differences and like why do we see the challenges. Right. And so, you know, we we look at I know one of the things we spend plenty of time thinking about, in our work is just the ways in which, mindsets and skill sets impact how people show up.
• 3:41
  Right? And so even in the mindset side, as you begin to think about personality wiring and all of this. And so I think maybe a question I would love to hear your perspective on is if we just start with the individual contributor. So people who are excelling in whatever that looks like, what is kind of what tends to be the mindset and the skill set needed to do well in that role?
• 4:03
  Well, I think we always talk about the the traits that we really enjoy of people and organizations working with are the three of curiosity, humility and passion. And so are you talking about right now? Which ones do we want to see in that person, or which ones may be evident in that person to handle? Well, yeah. I think it's probably some of both.
• 4:27
  Right. And because I think if they're doing well, I think more often than not, they're, they're evidencing the things we want to see. Yeah. So let's start there in the middle. You talk about like, what prevents that. And so I think what, what we want to do is John Maxwell said success leaves clues. And so as you're making that transition, what are the been the reasons for your success?
• 4:49
  What are your strengths? What are the things that inspire you? One of the questions we love to ask people in this process is, who was your favorite leader and why, and do you see some of them in you? What have you learned along the way around? Great coaches, great leaders that have influenced and shaped your life?
• 5:07
  And how do we model a little bit of those behaviors we see in them and ourselves? But I think one of the biggest things that we've seen, people have success in this is they really kind of know who they are. They know their strengths and they also understand their limitations. And and they walk in with this sense of curiosity of what can I learn about others.
• 5:28
  How can I learn about what makes them tick? How can I shift my focus away from me to the organization and to other people? Yeah. And that's part of, I think, what going back to what is the make up of people who tend to do well as an individual contributor? It can be kind of selfish. I mean, like like I think some of those folks, they're super hard workers and they'll grind.
• 5:51
  But typically even the way they're compensated, like they're they're incentivized to be a little bit of a lone wolf sometimes. Right. They're incentivized to get out there and make it happen. And they do that well. But those types of, of psychological, you know, mindsets and tendencies, fit can fit really well when you're the one doing the thing.
• 6:13
  But when you're then asked to get into a new role and help lead the people who are doing the thing, that doesn't work very well, right? Like, like those are not the psychological tendencies and traits that we see in leaders who excel. Yeah. And so that selfishness, that is a pretty harsh word. But it's true. Like I'm worried about me and I care about me and I'm going to focus on me.
• 6:36
  In fact, you work a lot of tour players. I have over the years. You know, one prevailing theory is to be a top player in the world. Yeah, yeah. Very true. You have to be really selfish. And so a lot of the guys I've worked with, they are naturally selfish. And so they had to get over this tension between, hey, here's what you need to be to be great.
• 6:54
  And I'm really not that person. And so they struggle with kind of that cognitive dissonance. That's created. The other piece an individual contributor focusing on them being very selfish on what their priorities are. It's why great players sometimes really great players who have great talent don't become great coaches. Yeah right. Because that expectation that they have of others, well, you just should do it my way.
• 7:17
  This kind of comes easy to me. Like it in that hard. And so, I don't think that you ever stop thinking a little bit around. I wonder if you could do it in a different way.
• 7:27
  I mean, isn't this Michael Jordan, the Charlotte Hornets? Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what I that's what I had. You know as a you take you know this there's a hotly debatable topic right.
• 7:35
  Who's the greatest player to ever play in the NBA. I know how I feel I would put him at the top of the list, but we were getting ready to have a look. Yeah. No, no, not a not a debate amongst this crowd. I'm talking about the younger generation. But to say that he's been a good leader in his role with the Hornets would be a completely off target take.
• 7:59
  I mean, it's been terrible and I think it has a lot to do with what you're saying is when you're that gifted and you had that much success in your career, you have very little patience for people who can't quite pull it off like you did. Very little patience, the the expectations unrealistic, a high level of hubris. Yeah.
• 8:16
  And an inherent you know, a lack of curiosity, like, you know, one way and it's worked for you and you just assume that everybody else has that same kind of talent, drive and ambition. Yep. Yeah. And I think, you know, with a lot of those people, when you ask the question, gosh, how did you get it done or what did it take?
• 8:38
  They don't always even know the answer because so much of it was just inherent in them is who they are. And you know what the answer tends to be? This is what I did. Yeah, this is how hard I worked. This is the effort I put forth. And so those people have a hard time transitioning to leadership because sometimes you hear, well, I'm thankful for my coaches.
• 8:58
  I'm thankful for my team, thankful for my parents. When other people poured into me or I, there's some gifts and talents I have that I don't I don't deserve I. So that you hear a little bit of the answers and the reasons for their success in a little bit different way, that may give you insight and their ability to transition into leadership.
• 9:17
  Yep. And so one of the things I love, you talk about a lot. And we we do kind of setting the tone for leaders is a what leadership is and what is not, you know, and so if we can disrupt some of those myths about what I know, what I thought leadership was, I thought it was going to be about me, when I was younger, even at home.
• 9:38
  Here's what I envision. And so if you're making this transition from individual contributor leader, what why would you say, here's what we think leadership is, but here's what it's not. You know, I think so I would answer that, take it straight to the concrete about one of the realities that happens in this transition we're talking about is let's talk about the scoreboard.
• 9:56
  So for individual contributors and many organizations, there's literally a scoreboard of some kind that you're very much tied to. I mean, there it is, right? The great Rasheed Wallace once upon a time. Right. Ball don't lie. So you know exactly where you stand, both good and bad. And when you're having great weeks, months or years, everybody knows it.
• 10:18
  And there's your name and you're very explicitly tied to a result that completely changes even in the detail of this. Like think about I'll take the example of a world we've worked in a ton pharmaceuticals over the years. Normally when you progress from a contributor to then a leader, there's still a scoreboard. But what's on the scoreboard now is your region.
• 10:41
  Your name is not next to that, right? So whereas it was your name before now it tends to be, you know, the southeast, the Midwest or whatever it is. And so just that level of depersonalization I think can hit people really hard if they have derived so much of their satisfaction, fulfillment from seeing their name in lights. I think even in our work, it's hard to measure impact.
• 11:04
  Yeah. You know, think of the difference you've made in Georgia football over the years, a tremendous difference. And they wouldn't be the program would accomplish what they would have accomplished without you. But it's hard to measure and very hard as you move into this leadership role. As I go, here's my region. It's hard to really measure that impact.
• 11:22
  I think that's a struggle for so many people to separate who we are from what we do. Yeah. Which is a number of factors. We're talking about the individual contributors doing well. Yeah. Like that. That individual performer is doing well. Well the one who's not is another big challenge. Yeah. Yeah. But I think to your point, like this is this massive shift of it's less about personal execution and it's more about team effectiveness.
• 11:50
  And I think there's a control element there as well as like in the moment, you're you shift in that way, the way the outside world perceives the success. If there is success way that may or may not be tied back to you, whereas you don't have to worry about that as much like with the old scoreboard. Hey, there it is.
• 12:08
  I think you know there's my name. Whereas now, even if your region is performing well, you don't control how that's interpreted in some leaders aren't very comfortable with that. Yeah, I think even even more so we can take that deeper. The illusion of control or the locus of control that we even think the individual performer has, but how the world interprets it.
• 12:28
  You know, this person is really successful because you know, you're winning national championships or winning presidents club. You got you're great at what you do. Yeah. And we don't dive a little bit deeper. Like what are the keys to their success. What are the reasons of that. But as you remove yourself from that, it's more about them than it is about you.
• 12:47
  And I think that's one of the key separations of leadership is like how can I get you to perform well. Versus what does it take for me to perform well. Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to give up. I mean we've talked about this a lot in the past about this shift as well.
• 13:01
  One of the misconceptions out there, I think tends to be is later there's that that old myth of like, man, I can't wait to become a leader because then we get to do it my way, right in my that I get to do this or that and I think in reality it needs to be more about you actually giving up
• 13:19
  preferences. And you're thinking more about what is the team need, what's best for the team. It's less about what's best for me.
• 13:25
  You know, I think over the years as we work in the corporate space, is what you hear is an individual contributor. Their primary focus for 100% is pretty much all of them. Yeah. As you move to that kind of next level of leadership, maybe that customer facing, leader, that first line leader, it may be 5050 that you're thinking about yourself and you're thinking about a team.
• 13:44
  And then as you move into a higher level, maybe 80, 20, and then at some point we get the C-suite, it's 100% about the organization. Yeah. And less about you and the people. Right. And that's a hard transition that some people don't want to make and aren't able to make. And you know, we're focusing a lot on the kind of the individuals and the challenges here.
• 14:03
  But I think another important thing to mention is many organizations aren't exactly setting people up for success here at all. So one example I can think about is, you know, the individual contributor who is killing it and gets approached by someone, you know, a leader in their organization with an opportunity to move up. Right? Like, hey, we think you'd be great at this.
• 14:28
  What if they don't want to? You know what if their thought is, what if they have a little more sophisticated understanding of themselves and they're like, yeah, like, I kind of like this. Like, I'm good at this. It's going well. I'm earning a good living. I'm getting a lot of good feedback. This is kind of what I want to do.
• 14:46
  So where have we seen organizations kind of fail people along those lines? We think that's a very healthy, totally, totally. This is what I can be the best in the world and this is the keys to my success. This is what I'm deeply passionate about. And and the interpretation from a leadership perspective is, well, they don't want to grow.
• 15:02
  Yeah. They don't want to challenge themselves to sacrifice. And so you start creating doubt. Does this person really have a future is really yep. Place. And so we change the narrative when we label that person as they aren't driven or they don't want to relocate or they don't want to move up and they don't want to help the organization, when in fact, the best thing they can do is going to be great, great at where their feet are, so to speak.
• 15:25
  And so that's where so many and and so the flip side of that is we force people that have promotions at one to it. Or we assume those are great here. They're going to be great. They're. Yeah. And and don't take any ownership as an organization. What are we doing to help facilitate this growth? Yeah. How are we creating an environment that allows them to continue to grow?
• 15:47
  And how are we supporting them in an effective way? Yeah, I mean, and we've seen plenty of examples over the years. I've had conversations with people who are who get in the senior and they're like, look, they're asking me to move up. It'll be more of what I don't like doing, and I'll I'll make less money.
• 16:05
  So you think about the dynamic of your organization is asking you to do something different that doesn't align with what you think you're good at, and enjoy and and there but it's done supported. And there's a support it. And they're asking you to take a pay cut. It wouldn't sign up for that. Yeah.
• 16:20
  Yeah right. That sounds great doesn't it. But it's happening a bunch. And then the organization is looking at this person. And if they say what we just mentioned, I kind of want to just keep doing what I'm doing. It's like you said. And they were like, we're done with this guy. Like, you know, he you know, he can kind of stay where he is, but there won't be any future for him.
• 16:41
  And so what I think, you know, where we've had some success in organizations truly, that I think are getting it right and trying to get it right is creating these internal leadership development programs to give people a glimpse into what leadership might really look like at your company. Edge organization. What does it take to lead in this organization?
• 16:58
  What are the keys to somebody's success. What are some of the challenges. And you get a glimpse into that. And then they're like do I want to sign up and raise my hand for this or not. Yeah. That's a really healthy way to look at this promotion that the organization has and look at it differently. And the individual has to look at it differently.
• 17:15
  To give people a chance of here's where I can make a difference.
• 17:19
  okay. So I think that's a great point right. I think organizations can do more to give people visibility into what it really means to be a leader. Let's think for a minute about let's imagine we have someone who has been very successful in a contributor role, and there is an opportunity, and he or she really wants to go for it.
• 17:37
  But they realize, gosh, this is a little bit different from how I'm wired, and I know that it's going to be a pretty big shift. What are the things that that person should be thinking about and aware of to kind of expect down the tunnel? Like, what do they need to be prepared for? I think part of that is having the courage just to be vulnerable.
• 18:00
  And yet I really don't know some of these answers. You know, where we see what I think people struggle is just this intense desire to please and to prove themselves. And so from day one, kind of giving us the permission to get to step into that with a little bit of humility and not minimizing their strengths, but really just an openness to what can I learn?
• 18:24
  How can I grow? Who can I lean on? What do I really know about myself to be true? And am I still an environment where I can leverage my strengths, to help others? But I think what tends to happen is this new leader, that what are the things that I think, you know, you told me a long time ago we were trying to create a little bit of what we've got now was like, hey, what got us here won't get you there, but you can't compromise.
• 18:52
  I believe in that process. What makes you really, really good? Trying to become great? The context of this conversation. You can't really compromise who you are and what you believe to try to become something that you're not. Yeah.
• 19:03
  Yeah, I think that's all true. And I think you just you've got to be prepared for, a lot of things to fall on your plate that aren't about you.
• 19:16
  You know, I think it's so much of it becomes being able to kind of broaden your perspective and broaden your focus of like, well, what does everybody need from me? And it's less of a focus on, you know, what you need, which, you know, you can't abandon your needs. I'm not saying that, but you've got to be willing to very quickly kind of broaden your perspective and think about the needs of the greater good.
• 19:40
  And I think that's a different mindset because I don't we've talked about the self-interest sometimes as an individual contributor, but a lot of people we work with, they want to make an impact. They want to feel like they're relevant, they want to feel like they're making a difference. And so when you change the way you keep score and you change how like we know how lazy the brain is.
• 19:59
  Yeah, this is kind of how they get this habit of thinking and doing like, this is how I'm helping organization. This is how I'm helping others. This is I'm really doing work that is meaningful to me on the scoreboard. Changes in the game changes, and the mindset doesn't follow. That's where we see so much tension. Yeah, this doubt like, am I really built for this?
• 20:20
  Am I really helping others? Or are they winning because of me or in spite of me? Those are questions that are meaningful questions and I don't have good answers for those. I'm going to probably show up in a way that's not very healthy for myself or for others. Yep. And I think another one I would throw in there is you must have a healthy degree of patience for more of a long game type way of thinking about success, right?
• 20:45
  Because I think when you're a contributor, one of the things that offers is it's it's normal to have a very short term relationship with cause and effect. Right? Oh, man. Like, you know, I went in and I saw x number of customers today and this percentage of them said yes. And I can put that on my report at the end of the day.
• 21:04
  And it's like, boom, I did something worthwhile back in the success I could. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And so you've got to have patience to recognize that it's more of a long game, delay gratification, patience toward, you know, what we're building, how I'm trying to set people up for success development. It's just different. Yeah. And I don't think we clarify those goals as well as a number.
• 21:26
  Yeah. I mean, I think that's where I think we can do a better job of okay, how to watch. Yes. My focus and I'm not trying to hit a number anymore and I'm not trying to win the game. I'm trying to help other people grow. And how am I going to measure that. How am I going to operationalize that.
• 21:40
  How am I going to quantify that. The hardest thing we believe there is is to measure effort. Yes. Stuff. And since that's one thing I really can't control, I can't control if I'm a leader, how other people form or how they how they turn out. And so when that's a huge mindset shift, how do you know kind Christians around that?
• 22:00
  Great. Well, how are you going to measure your life? How are you going to measure your work? And where we see so many people struggle to score board changes, their shift in focus does not. Yeah, yeah. And the final thing I would just say on that would be, and this is where this can be really scary depending on your organization, it's okay to change your mind.
• 22:21
  Like it's okay to, I don't think there's any way to know what it's really like to be in any given seat until you're in it. And I think that most people who make the decision to go from one seat to the new, the new seat of a leader, once they're there, they feel like, well, the only there's no option other than like figure it out.
• 22:42
  And I think that's a bad move. The, you know, what is prevalent so often in today's world is burnout and stress and frustration and our reactions to that. And so now I'm not I'm not content. I'm not finding meaning in my work. I'm questioning why I'm doing this and I'm probably not showing up. Well yeah. You're impacting yourself and impacting others and impacting the people you love in a very negative way because you feel stuck.
• 23:11
  But I think part of the problem there too is that organizations, whether they say it or not, they create a little bit of a dynamic where the undertone is that one is better than the other, and that's just not true. Right? I think it's got to be more about if you think of a functioning of a very a sales team, which is the easy one to talk about.
• 23:28
  And you've got contributors and we've got a leader of contributors. If the if the mentality is one role is better than the other, then you're going to have people inevitably who get in the wrong seat. It's just it's the wrong way to look at it. It's not about that. It's about, hey, these are qualitatively different things. We need to have the right people in the right seats.
• 23:47
  Let's go get after it. Yeah, and not just promote them, because I've never seen one good in the other. And I think that when we have normalization really well, to change the way and drive the performance of the team, that right there can make a huge difference. Yeah, I think let's let's focus on who's best at what and get them in those spots and, and go do it.
• 24:12
  And and what goes along with this I mean same thing with a local versus a recruit. By the college. Like we label the wall going versus the recruit. And you can't help but treat them differently. Yeah. Oh for sure. And so if we think a leader is more valuable to the organization than the individual contributor, then you can't help but treat them differently.
• 24:31
  And people are going to feel that. Yeah, totally, totally is what, you know, we talked about okay, what do I need to give up if I'm making this transition. But what's an organization need to support is we need to be able to help people separate who they are from what they do. It's tough. That's that. That's a tough one.
• 24:49
  Really challenging. Okay. I know we need to wind down here in a few minutes. Any remaining thoughts around this whole topic, which again, I think is just super relevant to, so many organizations, you know, they're all trying to figure out just what we said a moment ago, who needs to be in what seat, and they're all trying to solve for that.
• 25:12
  And so I think kind of beginning with that end in mind is just kind of being able to ask questions, what kind of person find success? What are the attributes and characteristics? What are the core values of organization? What is our our vision? What does the leadership really look like and feel like at our company and our organization?
• 25:30
  And if we're thinking about that is for if we're if we're wanting to promote from within, well, then how are we developing these leaders not just later on, like just skill set, but how are we developing them to think differently? And are we helping them have the courage to step into this with, knowing it's going to be a difficult transition?
• 25:54
  Yeah. You know, knowing that we need to be mindful and interested in goals, what the tendency is to come in and prove myself. And I'm gonna I'm going to kind of double down or control. I'm going to try to do everything myself. I'm not going to delegate because I haven't taken the time to trust my team. Yeah, I have to take the time to build relationships.
• 26:12
  I have to take the time to learn strings. I haven't learned how to let go of what I do. Well, so I'm just going to double down on this. And so to me, the big Patriots, okay, can we just disrupt a little bit of the way we're operating and thinking about leaders and about people? Yeah. And then I think leaders have to on that concept of value.
• 26:31
  They've got to make the shift from no longer trying to prove their value through their personal scoreboard and instead now defining it as helping, provide value through the work that others are doing. And that's that's different. Yeah. And and this is part of the process and part of the journey that as a leader, a lot of times it's less about what you do and what you can accomplish and more about who you are.
• 26:57
  Yeah. I agree totally. And it's easier to focus on what you do than really transform. Yeah. There's this as we talk about it more and more you know it's it's the irony here to me is that the take away that many organizations have when it doesn't go well, when the transition doesn't go well their take away is this is crazy.
• 27:19
  Like I can't understand why this. And it's like the more you talk about it the more you're like, well, of course it didn't go well. There's so much to it. It's more maze when it goes right. Yeah, it's it's so complex. And then where's the next logical step is when making more decisions. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know that like they just weren't cut out for this.
• 27:37
  And so part of this is from an organization perspective and an internal perspective. To avoid those labels. Yeah. And kind of view people in a different way and give them permission to kind of, hey, here's what leadership looks like at company X, but you gotta have some freedom to put your individual title. Yeah of course you do.
• 28:00
  And I think the other piece that I'm thinking drew, when you step into this promotion from an individual contributor later, we talk a lot about the fine line between being a servant and being a servant leader. And so sometimes these new leaders, it's hard for them to quit doing what works for them. You know, it works for them.
• 28:19
  Is it going to work in this transition? And so they become kind of a servant. They enable others. They don't empower others, you know, delegate. They just are kind of they are empowering people to do what they can do for themselves. And so that servant, that's what a servant does. But servant leadership is making it more about them than about you and not doing things for others they can do for themselves.
• 28:41
  Yeah. A lot to think about with this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of got to go into this topic and I think we can make a series. I know you.
• 28:50
  Well I think maybe, maybe time to call it quits for today. But we would really just challenge you as your for our listeners, as you're kind of digesting the places we, we got to in this conversation. Of course, it's always about translating this to your world, thinking, thinking about where it applies and how it applies, and then ultimately putting it to work.
• 29:12
  So, you know, if you're in a position where you're making decisions around who's getting promoted, really want to think about how you're making those calculated decisions and would really challenge you to think about your whole paradigm of like, how are you thinking about all of this right now? And you, in your conception of a conception of like, who you're looking for and how you're defining a great leader.
• 29:30
  And there's so much to be done there would really challenge people to kind of lean into doing the work. Yeah. And if you're stepping into this, if you've been tabbed, hey, we think you have what it takes. Yeah. Then walk through some of this and say answer some of those questions we presented today is, okay, what evidence do you have that you can be successful in this role?
• 29:49
  What is your definition of leadership? What are your strengths and how do they translate and transfer to this new role? And how do you start to see that mindset shift from making it about you to making it about others? Yeah, and and kind of just give yourself permission to be human. It's going to feel uncomfortable. It's going to feel challenging.
• 30:06
  But but stay with it and be willing to ask for help. Yeah. Easy assignment. Yeah, yeah. The things we love is we love, examples and ideas of, hey, have you done this really well, you recently made this transition and went well. Or if you struggle with it. So leave us some comments. Give us some feedback.
• 30:25
  We love hearing about best practices and we love encouraging you. Hey, I'm in this situation right now and I'm really struggling. That helps us clarify a little bit of our work and maybe continue to provide content that's relevant for your life. Okay. Well, thank you for tuning in. We're always really grateful to our listeners, and we will look forward to our next conversation here real soon.
• 30:47
  Take care.