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Critical Management Studies & Communities of Practice with Catherine Monaghan · OD Learning Lab

• Anthony Adkisson: so yeah, want to say welcome back to the listeners and thank you for joining us again for our next upcoming podcast. you're here with myself, Anthony Eggson and Kyle Zaminek. And yeah, today we have Kate Monaghan joining us. I think last time or last episode we spoke with Dr. Paul Putman and we talked a little bit about his work and his background and kind of how the three of us knew each other, and we talked a little bit about the community of practice that was formed at Cleveland State University during my doctoral program. And so I'm happy to have today Dr. Kate Monaghan joining us, who was my dissertation chair and was the lead for one of the seminar classes that you know, kind of helped me get into publication. So yeah, I want to welcome Dr. Kate Monaghan to the podcast and looking forward to having a conversation with her today. Cate Monaghan: Happy to join you guys. Kyle Znamenak: So yeah, I was gonna say like Kate, can you Anthony Adkisson: So go no, go ahead. Kyle Znamenak: tell us a little bit o about your background? Cate Monaghan: well I've a very background is varied. So I graduated with an economics degree, went into accounting, became a CPA, then decided I wanted to do training. did that for a while, then had a then ended up teaching business at a college in Chicago, decided I I had a research question and that through a s very intricate series of steps ended me I ended up at the University of Georgia doing my doctoral work. And I originally started out wanting to find out how to teach students to think critically and ended up because of my wonderful advisor Ron Severo looking at critical management studies. And then that led me to after I got my doctorate, I got a I came to CSU into their adult learning and development program and was teaching there and the rest is history. Anthony Adkisson: I I appreciate how you say your background is varied because I think one of the things we're finding out with a lot of folks within sort of the field of adult learning is that exactly that their backgrounds are varied and that no one starts off saying, I'm gonna be an adult educator or go into adult learning. so I'm just wondering if you find that true in your experience or you know, those that you've worked with in your academic career that people kind of have varied backgrounds. Cate Monaghan: yes, very much so. I don't it's not something that in high school you don't want to t r go around and talk about careers. Adult education, adult learning isn't one of the careers they talk about. You know, the closest and you might kind of fall into something like training in organizations or something, but even that isn't you usually do a degree in organizational development. And Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Yep. Cate Monaghan: so yeah, so what happens is I think people j for various reasons they find out about it, but usually they're later on in their career. although I did teach a doctoral class in the spring of twenty of last year and there were some like quote unquote younger students meaning they were in their early thirties. Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. Cate Monaghan: And one might have been in her late twenties, but that but that's very rare that you find somebody who discovers adult education that early in their life. So so then they they bring with them whatever they did before. So yeah. Kyle Znamenak: I I kinda wanna revisit what you said about a research question drew you into getting a PhD. I was Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Kyle Znamenak: curious, what was that specific research question and why did you think the PhD was the answer or that the would allow you to answer it? Cate Monaghan: well, I was teaching accounting and business classes at Robert Moore's College in Chicago, and that college really catered to first generation students. And so and I was in classes teaching them and I thought, well, you know, how did I learn to think critically and ask questions? you know. And then I was reading a book, and And I had so I and then I was reading this book about learning, and I thought to myself, well, the question that I had was, how do you teach students critical thinking? And I didn't think of it in the way of like in English classes where you teach them to analyze an argument. Because this was about teaching students to think critically about I was in accounting, you know, how do you And and I was thinking about well, how did I learn to question things? and I used to play Clue, and I don't know why that was one of the, but anyway, that board game clue. Anyway, I was so that was it was really kind of it wasn't a well-formed research question. It was Kyle Znamenak: For sure. Cate Monaghan: just that. And then I so I was reading this book and I decided to email the authors. And see what they would suggest I do with this research question. And they weren't there anymore. It was at Cornell University. And I literally, I was in, but they were in the education department. I literally emailed every single professor on their website and asked them this question. And I happened to email Bruce Wilson. Okay. Kyle Znamenak: Wow. Wow. Cate Monaghan: And he he wrote me back and he said, You need to go get a PhD and you should I would suggest either Northern Illinois University or the University of Georgia. Well I had just moved from Chicago to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and I thought this is one of God's jokes. I am not moving back to Illinois. and then I and so then I called anyway, so I ended up email you know, I just did this email thing. I just reached out to people. I emailed the dean of the graduate college at UGA, and he suggested that I contact Ron Severo, who was the graduate program coordinator at that time, and I called him. And we had a 15-minute conversation. And at the end of it, basically, I told him what I was interested in. And he he was so excited about my topic that, and he said to me, this was at the end of October, he said, if you get your application in in the next week, we're we're interviewing candidates like the middle of November, and he said, and if you get in. I can offer you a graduate assistantship the next fall. And and so you know, so a week later I called them back and told them that I was sitting for the GMATs and I had submitted my application, and he was he was stunned that I did that. And I'm thinking, well, you told me it, you know. But I guess Kyle Znamenak: Ha ha. Cate Monaghan: you know, there are people that you suggest those things to and they don't follow through, but I like followed through. Anthony Adkisson: No, no. Cate Monaghan: had an interview in November with Tao Town J Guy Juanita Johnson Bailey and Laura Birma no Brad Courtney and then they they offered me the they gave me they admitted me and I had a graduate assistantship and so you know like eight months later I was down in Georgia So Anthony Adkisson: It's so it's so cool after knowing you all these years, hearing that story and just the evolution of that story and how Cate Monaghan: Right. Anthony Adkisson: you came there. Because I think it's just interesting when you hear people's kind of stories in terms of how they end up like in a doctoral program or a PhD Cate Monaghan: Right. Anthony Adkisson: program, particularly within adult learning. can you talk a little bit about, you know, your work with Ron Severo and so, you know How did his work and his research influence yours and do you see any overlap and yeah, just interesting because he became your dissertation chair? Cate Monaghan: Right, right, yeah. it that was I mean s I was just blessed to to work with Ron Severo. So, and especially and then I became h I was his graduate student on top of it. So 'cause he was the chair and the chair got first pick of the graduates pool and and so and he picked me, which I'm very thankful for. But Well, you know, we as we went along, and he knew this probably before I mean he knew this before I did, but he knew about critical management studies. And because critical management studies is really rooted in power and privilege and, you know, equity. And that's, just reading Ron's program planning model. That's what it's about, It's all it's that's the power dynamics and things. So I complimented what he was doing. And, you know, here he had me as a student, and I opened up all this literature, you know, to him and also to Laura Bierma. She was on my dissertation committee as well. but and then I and then I was privileged because I helped edit the book he wrote with Bruce Wilson. And it that was such an exciting experience because Ron is a very concise writer in his first drafts, and Bruce is more kind of stream of consciousness, you know what I mean? And I Kyle Znamenak: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: had I literally had to take And meld those voices. You can't tell that there are two voices in that book if you read it. But there Anthony Adkisson: No, no. Cate Monaghan: were they started out two very distinct writing styles. And my job was to meld that together. And yeah. Right. yeah. Working at Kyle Znamenak: It's funny, Anthony's grabbing the book. I you can't really see it. it's alright. It's just a little blurred. Yeah, working the plan. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: planning table. Yes. Yep. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Okay. Cate Monaghan: So Anthony Adkisson: I always keep my desk copy by side 'cause I c constantly, consistently reference it. Yeah. Cate Monaghan: Right. Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: So you were driven by this research question when it comes to when it was specifically it was accounting students. Cate Monaghan: Right. Kyle Znamenak: How did that evolve once you got into the program and what ended up being your your research agenda once you got in? Cate Monaghan: Well, it turned out that my research agenda and my overall research question was what happens when students are in a classroom where critical management studies is the primary theory that they're learning about? And so I actually so I got I had two research sites. It was really interesting looking for research sites because really we don't do critical management studies on this side as I say on this side of the pond. They do it in England and you know Europe. And so there was the critical management listserv, critical management studies listserv. And I posted on the listserv that I was a doctoral student. I wanted to do this study And I was looking for classroom sites to do this study. And was anybody interested? I had four, five people write me back and say they'd love to have me come in their class. And I ended up going to the University of Leicester, and it was I went there for three weeks. he was teaching a class on Dr. Campbell was teaching a class that was subtitled. anti capitalism. You know. And so I went they gave me an office. They put me up in one of the dorms, you know, they gave me a place place to live. They fed me, you know, it was really, it was really great. And so I interviewed the students and then Ron was very instrumental in us kind of How do we classify the students? How do we see if there's a growth, you know? So we were able to kind of figure out where they were at the beginning, whether they were pro-capitalism, anti-capitalism, or someplace in between. And then where were they at the end of the three weeks really, which was toward the end of the class? And did anybody move? Did anybody change positions? And in a nutshell, what I found was there were people who were pro-capitalist who came into the class pro-capitalist, and what they ended the class with was they now had a language that they could argue their pro-capitalist position f with a from a perspective of at looking like, or well, from a perspective of being able to say, well, I understand your position, but this is my so some people became even more, if you will, pro-capitalist because of the class. Some people came into the class and they were, if you will, anti-capitalist. and one of my students was from Ethiopia and he told the story about how his family had a textile business in Ethiopia. And there was a you know, there was a recess worldwide recession, and the family had, you know, the family had to decide what do we do? Do we lay off all our workers? Which in the business model, the capitalist business model, you lay off workers. And the the family decided that they were going to that they were going to keep their workers on making their product because it wasn't a perishable product. And that eventually they would recoup, they could sell their product, but the if they laid the workers off, they would be literally taking food out of their mouths of their workers. And the the this student he felt so conflicted because he felt like that was the right thing to do, but it wasn't a successful what a successful business person would do. And Kyle Znamenak: Mm. Cate Monaghan: he came into this class and he went, Yes, there's another way to define successful business person. Kyle Znamenak: Great. Cate Monaghan: and then there was a then there were two students who were came in pro capitalist and ended up being more anti-capitalist by b and they moved, you know. So there was some but it was only a sixteen week semester. So I mean, thought later I should have kept in contact with my participants and done a follow-up study like five years out. That would have been, but I didn't have the presence of mind to think that far ahead. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: yeah, you just wanted to finish the dissertation. I think that that is totally respected. Anthony Adkisson: Right. Cate Monaghan: Yes, yes, absolutely. as Ron always said, a done dissertation is a good dissertation. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah, that's that's really interesting. because you did at the end of the day it was about critical thinking, right? And so they were getting the critical thinking skills rather than here we're gonna we're gonna shift your perspective or philosophy, right? So that was that's really interesting. Cate Monaghan: Right. Right. Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: so how did your so you you went, you got your PhD, and then you came to Cleveland State. How did your research agenda continue to evolve while you're at Cleveland State? Was there particular lines of research you continued? Anything that came up new for you? Cate Monaghan: Well, yes. what came up new for me was communities of practice. So because I am at heart a collaborator. I I mean, even when I was at UGA, I had small communities, I didn't call them know they called them with communities of practice at that time, but I had small communities of practice that I created. It might be within an individual class because we're doing statistics. And we form a study group, or it might be we had I had one group we met for breakfast every week, like Monday morning that we got up, we went to breakfast, and we were just a little support group. You know what I mean? So I'm always I've been I realized I finally realized I was just creating community, I've been creating communities of practice kind of all my life. So then I got really interested in that because it's a little bit different. communities of practice is different from mentoring. It's about, because mentoring tends to be a you know, you're the expert and I'm coming to you and you're going to mentor me and whatever you're the expert and what I'm looking for. Whereas communities of practice is we have a common interest around something, and we're going to pool our resources. and our knowledge and our skills and we're gonna share them with one another. Yeah, so so then I started looking at how I could do communities of practice inside the classroom as opposed to doing group work. so Anthony Adkisson: Can you share some of those experiences of how you use communities of practice within the classroom and how did your students respond to it? Cate Monaghan: Yes. So the f the first time and I actually one of my articles was about this, but I because I wanted to to develop for others how you know, like kind of a structure of how you could use it in the classroom. So I went into this classroom and I said we're going to do communities of practice. And it was a I think it was the organizational development class. So that was the perfect, setting to to start communities practice. And I told them that they needed to pick three of the st three other students that that they wanted to work with and their topics, think about their topics. And then they would give them to me and we would kind of sort it out. Well I had four males in the class. And as just, you know, it's just natural. So the four males all decided that they were going to form their own community practice and their topics. And I went, no, I'm not doing that. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah. Anthony Adkisson: Right. Cate Monaghan: That's that's not an option. So I divvied them up into this, you know, and they and it just they came back and said to me I learned so much more and had we had such a better experience than we would have had doing what we originally thought we should do. And but then so that was the positive in that class. The negative in that class was that and and they spent the entire semester pretty much I mean, they spent a large part of class working on their communities of practice because I gave them in class space to do that. And there was one group and so I would walk around with the groups but I wasn't there was one group and I wasn't really paying attention to that group or I wasn't paying attention to what was happening but they actually f split into two groups and they were not working well and and it was in it's so ironic how things are because their topic was communication in organizations. Anthony Adkisson: Ha Kyle Znamenak: Cheese. Anthony Adkisson: ha ha. Kyle Znamenak: Good cheese. Cate Monaghan: Well, at the at the end of the class when they did their presentations, it was almost it almost came to blows. they were just I it was, you know, it kind of everything just bubbled up. And, you know, they presented it to me, you know, but that taught me that I need to pay, you know, that need to that it's also, even though I'm not doing quote unquote group work. there's that the Norman Storming, all that, that is something real and you need to pay attention to that, even in a community of practice, you know. So that was very interesting. So that taught me how to kind of str structure it. But then of course by the time I got to the doctoral seminar where Anthony first heard about or, you know, got the community of practice Then that was a totally different thing because it was doctoral students, it was and then it was Paul Putnam, Paul Putnam and because he had just graduated. So I asked him if he wanted to put some teaching on his resume or C V and whatever. And then three other students. And I just went in and said, Okay, what do you guys want to do? Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, I think for that class, you're right, it was very different 'cause it was a doctoral seminar program and I rem I I The description of the class was very vague, but I Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: remember we didn't really have any expectations. But I know that at certain point what we all coalesced and came to was that we wanted to know more about publication and how to publish and how to do academic publishing and writing and presenting at conferences so that we could put those on our C V. And so you're like, okay, let's do that. And so I think from that we came out with at least a couple of publications and a few presentations. So Cate Monaghan: Yes. Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: yeah, that was a a great experience. Experience and I see that as the benefit of community as a practice because Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: I think we each have the opportunity to sort of bring our own lens and our own background. And I think it goes back to that earlier conversation we were having about how we all come within adult learning with so many different backgrounds that Cate Monaghan: Right. Anthony Adkisson: each of us were able to bring in something, you know. Paul with philanthropy, myself with you know, workforce, Carrie was coming in with you know, working within the academic area or college setting with students. Students and then bridge it with you know being an English professor. So yeah, I think that that all kind of kind of coalesced and came together and was a great experience. Cate Monaghan: Right, right. And I think it's very much a respecting of the fact that everyone in the community you practice has something to contribute. That it's not a I'm it's not this I have I I'm the expert and I you know, I'm the expert and I'm gonna emp as a teacher and I'm gonna impart it to you. There's not there was the expectation that even if you had never published anything. that you could read about because we read about we one of the books we used was about how to publish and that you could you, you know, Anthony could read about it and then he could come into class and share with us what we needed to know. Or, you Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. Cate Monaghan: know, so that there were all those those things that respecting of people's ability to bring their ex their own expertise that we all have into the setting. Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah. And it and I think after the class too, it continued to evolve in which it became more of this support group for your your for their doctorate, like getting their PhD and like Paul was still even involved with it, coaching people through the process and then they Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Right. Kyle Znamenak: still continued research, I believe, even after the after Cate Monaghan: Right, right, yes. Kyle Znamenak: the class. Cate Monaghan: Yeah. So yeah, that was the thing is that there we everybody was at a different stage in the dissertation process, including me. But you know, Paul and and Anthony, were you the first of the class? Anthony Adkisson: I was first, yeah. Cate Monaghan: Yeah. And then it was Carrie and Bridget and so and it So it was a matter of everybody was passing their knowledge on. So even Anthony ha you know, because once he got through he he got through the process, he could turn around and pass that on and things like that. So yeah, so we did that. Yeah, we I think it was for I don't know, maybe another f five years. We have probably met once a week per pretty much to to Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cate Monaghan: and and I re and then and then there were also conversations going on between different people. I know at one point, I think was it Carrie or something who called Anthony and said, you know, I can't do this. I I I Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. Cate Monaghan: I shouldn't turn this in. I you know, I should tell Dr. Monaghan I'm not ready. And I think you said to her, no, no, no. If you're not ready, she'll let you know. But just assume you're ready until Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: know. Anthony Adkisson: Right, yeah. We we would all have we kind of split it off into just different kind of groups and just support. And it became, you Cate Monaghan: Right. Anthony Adkisson: know, a matter of support. And yeah, there was a moment where Carrie and I had coffee and she's like, I just don't know what to do at this point. I don't think I can do this and yeah, luckily she got through it, but it was just that level of support of, you know, been there, done that, and yeah, just giving people kind of that pep talk. I think what I also appreciated about that is that, to that point of it splintering off in different groups, out of that came some publications. And then Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: I'm wondering if you could talk about the publication in the book that you and Paul and I think Dr. Paulette edited. Yes, yeah. If you could talk about that. Cate Monaghan: Yeah, Isaac Savage, yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, so that book was on the careers within the f the field of adult education. And it's interesting, like when I got to UGA, my first thing was, Where's the book that tells me about all the possibilities in the careers in adult education? Where is it? And I couldn't find it, couldn't find it. And I t talked to a couple people but about maybe doing something, but anyway, one of those new direction things, but it never came to pass for whatever reason. And then finally I thought, well, okay, you know, my Angelou says if there's a book that you want to read that hasn't been written, you need to write it. And so Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: I took her advice and I And of and so and then I started to think about it and I thought, well, I don't want to why do this again? I'm a collaborator. I thought why do this alone when I can do this with people, with friends, with colleagues. So I called up Paul and I called up Paulette and I said, Hey, you wanna do this book together? And this was just before the pandemic hit. Anyway, so we did and it's there's seventeen chapters on different careers in adult education. everything, even the from some of the knowns, working in an organization or training and development to things that people don't think about, like the adult education that goes on in the K through twelve system, or museums, whatever. But we cut it off at seventeen chapters because otherwise we would have had this massive encyclopedia. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: yeah. So that's you know, we j I just decided it needed to be out in the world because again, people don't necessarily th think about if they're working in a museum, they don't maybe think about that they're real they're doing adult education, but they don't think about it. And if they're not thinking about, they don't think about how they can do it better. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. I'm having a brainstorm moment here and so just go with me. And so I I I I love that idea of that book because I think we all as we went into adult learning we thought about, okay, what am I gonna do with this? And the typical idea is, Okay, I'm going to, you know, be a professor, I'm going to teach, I'm gonna do research and I mean the academic setting, but that's not always the case. And so I think part of, you know, you know Kyle's and I's goal with this podcast is to begin reaching a larger group of people with adult learning and thinking about all the ways that adult learning impacts everything from teaching to organizational development and leadership, et cetera. But I'm just wondering, is there the there is the error a possibility or potential to think about the topics and chapters of those books and the authors of those chapters? and invite them to join the podcast and talk about, you know, the chapter that they wrote around careers in adult education to again think about how do we use sort of more modern technology and these social Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: media platforms to sort of reach a larger population. So I'm just wondering if there's a space or thought for like taking a chapter that, you know, I think or one of the chapters that you've written and just have that person come onto the podcast and talk a little bit about it and talk about the chapter and how it's been updated and what that looks like now. Cate Monaghan: Right. I think that would be great because I think you're right. one of the things about that book, and I I think I've mentioned it to the two of you before, is that at that point in time when we were writing the book, AI was just kind of on the horizon, but it wasn't a big as big as it is now. and so that's missing from the book. But I think that all of so and then social media. wasn't th th those probably are the two places that the whole book could be updated but I think this podcast would be perfect to continue that conversation in terms of well let's say for instance the Christine Abram who wrote the chapter on the K through twelve adult education. how does she see what's happening in AI and w with AI and and even social media in terms of those kind of things or even just what what you do? I mean, I think it would be interesting to your listeners to find to find out what some of these if you will, w where it's all happening, you know, because it's just it's happening, it's all around us and we just don't notice it necessarily because no one's pointed out that, yes, you're doing adult education. You're doing adult learning. You're teaching adults, So even if it's just sitting down at a for instance at a parent teacher conference. Well Yeah, so yeah, I think that would be a great idea. And I would be and I'm thinking Paul and Paulette would be another person that might be a good person to come because you know she has a lot of experience in terms of you know, you know, organizations and and also her her area of her research area, her kind of love is the adult education that's happening in black churches. Anthony Adkisson: Hmm, okay. Cate Monaghan: So yeah, which is a a space that again doesn't get a lot of attention. But yeah. Kyle Znamenak: Definitely. Cate Monaghan: And it and it's happening, I mean you know, that's a different way of educate educating people than for instance happens in white churches, you know. So yeah. Kyle Znamenak: For sure. wow. you when you you think about the civil rights movement and everything that happened with black churches, wow. Wow. And that's that's yeah, sorry. Yep, Kate. Yeah. Cate Monaghan: Right. Right. Right. And and even what's happening now, so yeah. Kyle Znamenak: You have any other? I'm trying to think of a good transition question right now. This is where we pause and we think through. Anthony Adkisson: Well yeah, I guess no part Cate Monaghan: Right, right. Anthony Adkisson: of where yeah, I kept looking away is because I was trying to go into our Google Drive and take a look at so part of where Col and I are going next with this, as we shared before, I think we are going to present at the Triple H conference in Chattanooga, Tennessee, in October. And so when we presented at AERC and we did this in Canada, we really focused on the podcast and we focused on talking a little bit about Gretchen Birch's recordings that she has and so there's still we're still having conversations with her. But I think we've also, as we share, the podcast continues to evolve and we begin this thinking of new ways to invite people on. And part Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: of what we want to do and some of the advice that Triple H gave us is that when we present this time is to have more of a research bit to Cate Monaghan: Okay. Anthony Adkisson: our focus and what we're doing. And so what I was looking for and I can't find right now are the research questions. So we had some research questions that we're Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: looking at and One of them that I can think about is, how are people using podcasts within Cate Monaghan: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: the adult learning sphere? And so we know that we've looked at research that says that there is podcasts can be used for public discourse and used for public scholarship. And so I think that we're kind of wanting to lean into that a little bit more and figure out how do we sort of help Just promote podcasts and this kind of platform for adult learning. Cate Monaghan: Well, and I think, you know, we talked about so I was supposed to teach the organizational development class, and then Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: it turned out that Wendy lost, you know, one of her classes were canceled, so they gave me, gave her mine. You know what I mean? But Anthony Adkisson: Okay. Cate Monaghan: we had talked about that about learn using podcast as be because you know, you have students read articles. And you might have them s watch a video, you know, Gretchen's videos are just really great. but why I mean, this is the day and age of podcasts. So it's now time, you know, and and or and then there was a time we had a iteration where you used to have students do TED Talks. Remember TED Talks, you know? And Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Yep. Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. You're right. Yeah. Cate Monaghan: so and and now it's kind of like, now we're gonna have we can use podcasts. We now have this. a another tool. So that's the Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. Cate Monaghan: thing is the the evolving tools and how can we use them for the students to help the students have ways to engage in the topic and learn about the topic and then Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. Cate Monaghan: come back and talk about what they're learning and things like that. So yeah I think that you know because I think that's great to see as a research question to see how is it that podcasts are coming into their own and where are where are they being used? Who's using them? Why are they using them? What's the experience? it does it enrich the discussion to have students do a podcast as opposed to read an article? I mean, you want to kind of do everything a little bit of everything, but how does, you know, what are students experiencing? That's another, that's another research question. You know, you're right. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: Right now you're on the how is it being used level. And then you you know, some point you you know, or maybe what happens is somebody's in a doctoral program listening to this podcast, and they think, Wow, I'd love to find out how students are using podcasts. And then and and you know, Kyle, you're students, right? Kyle Znamenak: Yeah. Yeah. Cate Monaghan: That's a perfect that's a perfect question for one of your students. You know? Kyle Znamenak: Agreed. Yeah. I agree. Cate Monaghan: So I mean, and that's the that's the thing is with the research, well, I remember and I think I've I told all my doctoral students this, that when you got, you know, you got to the final chapter of your dissertation and you had a section that called further study. And I was taught, I think it was Juanita Johnson Bailey who who said this. but I was taught that what you did was you did not share your research agenda that you wanted to be engaged in in that discussion on further study. You because you didn't want it out in the public. What you Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Cate Monaghan: wanted to put out there was what you wanted others to be researching that may help you or may not, but that you like, you know, so that that's how you did that section. Because otherwise what would happen is you might maybe you put out something you want you wanted to look at students and you put that out there. Well, somebody w read your dissertation and they were off and going with it and you were so busy, maybe you were being a faculty member, you didn't have time. And by the time you had time, they had already done it. So Anthony Adkisson: Right. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah. You go you go in your Google Scholar and see that someone cited your research and you're like, what did they that was the one question that I wanted to explore. no. Cate Monaghan: Right, right. Right. What you wanna do is go, that was a question I wanted them to explore that's gonna help me or that, I can use somehow. Yes, yes. So Kyle Znamenak: Is there anything 'cause I I just wanna I'm looking at time. Is there anything else that you wanted to share with us that we didn't address today? Cate Monaghan: hmm. Well, I guess I just think that first of all, what you're doing here I think is is really fabulous because I think it's needed. I think it's you're looking at organizational development and the learning in a in a very different way that's really kind of cutting edge in terms of the technology. And I think that's something that's to d I mean The technology is just moving so fast that that's helpful. And then I just think that the the this format and the communities of and communities of practice and things, this is what this is is. This is a community of practice. You are you are the kind of the facilitators of making that happen. And I think that's great. So I'm so you know, I'm so glad we could, get together and talk about these things. Kyle Znamenak: Thank you, Kate. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, yeah, we appreciate you, Kate, and taking the time to join us and lend your voice to this. And you know, I think we'll just as we continue to kind of evolve this, what we would love to do is reach back out and, you know, ask you f if there's other topics that kind of come up to bring you on or if you have suggestions for others who are in the field, both academic and practitioners that you think you know we would should interview and bring on. Yeah, we would love to have any suggestions that you have. Cate Monaghan: absolutely. And when you go to Triple A's, go hook up with Paulette. I mean, seriously, Anthony Adkisson: Okay. Cate Monaghan: you she's gonna look like she always looks like she's really busy, and she is, because she knows so many people, but just go up and talk to her and get a couple minutes. And also if there's some pe some authors from our books that you want to you'd like to bring on to the podcast. And you want me to to reach out to them, or I'm sure Paul or Paulette, we would be all be happy to reach out on your behalf. So Kyle Znamenak: Really great. Thank you Anthony Adkisson: Thank you. We appreciate it. Kyle Znamenak: so much. Cate Monaghan: Yeah, absolutely. So, all right. Kyle Znamenak: Right, and stop it.