Latest / Cookbook Love Podcast / Episode 378: Athens: Food, Stories, Love, and Cookbooks with Diane Kochilas

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Episode 378: Athens: Food, Stories, Love, and Cookbooks with Diane Kochilas · Cookbook Love Podcast

0:02
You are listening to the Cookbook Love podcast with Maggie
0:05
Green, episode number 3 78.
0:11
Welcome to the Cookbook Love podcast.
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A podcast that celebrates cookbook readers, buyers,
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collectors, writers and clubs.
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And now your host cookbook author, culinary dietician, and cookbook
0:23
writing coach, Maggie Green.
0:31
Hi everybody.
0:32
Welcome back to another episode of the Cookbook Love podcast.
0:35
How is everybody doing today?
0:37
Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving and welcome to December.
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We have some interviews to share just like we have over the past few months related
0:47
to new books that you can give for this holiday gift giving season, or new books
0:53
that you might want to check out yourself to expose you to new authors, new flavors,
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and new kitchens all around the world.
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Today is no exception as I am joined by Diane Coach.
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A New York Times bestselling author and host of five seasons of the
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acclaimed PBS show, my Greek table.
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Having lived in Athens for more than 30 years, Diane has been witness to enormous
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social and culinary change all her.
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Round her.
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Today, the kitchens of Athens overflow with new creative energy and international
1:26
ingredients fill the markets.
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In her new book also titled Athens, Diane Takes readers on
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a culinary tour of Greece's.
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Most visited city as one of the most recognized voices for Greek cuisine.
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Diane and I talk all about her role as a cultural storyteller, her teaching
1:44
about Greek cuisine, her career writing.
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Reviewing restaurants and doing her television show, the sources for how
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she collects stories and recipes for her books and all about her new book,
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Athens, and the Plant Forward approach to Cooking intermingled with the spirit
2:03
of Greek hospitality found in a Verna.
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So I think you're really going to enjoy this episode, hear all about
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Diane's career in food and writing, and without further delay, let's dive into
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this interview with Diane Coachellas.
2:19
Hi Diane.
2:20
Welcome to the Cookbook Love podcast.
2:22
Hi Maggie.
2:23
Thank you for inviting me.
2:25
I'm so excited that you're here and to talk all about your beautiful new book,
2:29
Athens Food Stories Love a Cookbook.
2:34
Before we get started, why don't you tell everybody a little bit
2:36
about who you are and what you do.
2:39
Okay, well, I'm Diane Ellis.
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Uh, I am a cookbook author, I think a pretty prolific one.
2:47
Uh, maybe the most prolific Greek American or Greek cookbook author.
2:51
I've written 11 cookbooks in English and a handful of others in Greek.
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Um, I'm originally from New York.
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I moved to Greece.
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I moved to Athens 33 years ago in, uh, October of 1992.
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And I worked there for two decades as a newspaper columnist, a food
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columnist and restaurant critic for the largest Greek daily newspaper.
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And then I went on from there to do television, uh, in Greek to begin
3:21
with, in Greece, uh, in a show called What are We Gonna Eat Today, mom?
3:25
98 episodes a season.
3:27
Wow.
3:27
I'm not joking.
3:28
98 a season.
3:29
98 episodes a season.
3:31
It was complete insanity.
3:33
Yes.
3:33
Uh, but fun.
3:34
And then, uh, I, uh, from 2017, I started to co-produce my own show here in the
3:43
United States, uh, called my Greek table.
3:46
And we've been on PBS ever since.
3:49
We're just in our fifth season.
3:51
We just started our fifth season.
3:52
So that's really exciting and it's, uh, themed the flavors of longevity.
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So I, I guess I wear two hats.
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One is the hat of, that was the sort of the start of my
4:03
career, which was, um, just this.
4:06
Deep dive into my own culture through its food.
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So, you know, I grew up in a Greek American home in New York.
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Food was always a very important part of our lives.
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My dad was the cook in the family, both professionally and also just,
4:23
you know, at home for the most part.
4:25
And I started writing cookbooks kind of by, completely by accident.
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I was working editorial and one day over lunch I happened to, uh, be eating with
4:36
the, the food columnist of this magazine.
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And I mentioned that there hadn't been a Greek cookbook published
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in English in about 10 years.
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And he basically said, well write a proposal.
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I'll introduced it to my agent.
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And that was in 1988.
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So I've been around a long time.
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That's what happens.
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You get it, the bug and you start doing it.
4:54
Yeah.
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And then, yeah.
4:56
Yeah.
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And I remember that feeling of feeling that book in my hands
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was, you know, the first book.
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It was.
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Yeah.
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And what was the first book?
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The first book was called The Food and Wine of Greece,
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the Food and Wine of Greece.
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Yeah.
5:07
And then, you know, so I went on to, I loved that feeling, so I did all
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I could to continue, uh, having that feeling of, you know, giving, um.
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Giving birth to cookbooks every, every couple of years.
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Yeah.
5:22
And, uh, I also, so that my, so one hat is I guess my embrace of
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all things Greek and culinary.
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Greek and edible.
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Um, and then my other hat has to do with my own family roots, which are
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on the Blue Zone island of Iria, which was dubbed by the New York Times
5:41
in a big article a few years ago.
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The i, the island where people forget to die.
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And it's a very unusual place.
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I run a cooking school there in the summers in June and September.
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I've kind of branched out a little bit too, and I'm doing
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some culinary and cultural trips.
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So combining.
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And that whole sort of, let's say healthy and wellness aspect of the
6:02
food together with the regional other region, other regions, um.
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So hence the theme for this season, which is the flavors of longevity,
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which is almost all, it's not all plant fo, it's not all plant-based,
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but it's all plant forward.
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So it's a, I think it's a real, I think it's our best season so far.
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It's not so much a travel show this year.
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It's more of a, a jour, it takes a more journalistic approach.
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So that's kind of what I've been doing.
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Yeah, that's great.
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And I, you know, I raised my two wonderful children in Athens and I've made Athens
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my home for the more, the, you know, more than the last three decades.
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So in some ways, Athens, uh, food store love is kind of my thank you to the city.
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Yeah.
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Which has given me so much.
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So, yeah.
6:48
Yeah.
6:49
So should we start, I think we should start, let's talk at a high level
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about, uh, Greece, uh, food and wine of Greece was your first book,
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and that's a big food story to tell about just that particular country.
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Um, how did you attack.
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A book like that with there being so many different regions and areas
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and now you're down to, you know, the nitty gritty and you're even
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talking about a specific island now.
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It's really gone from broader down to more narrow, it sounds like.
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Uh, it depends.
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I've written books that are both broad and narrowly focused.
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So my, the broadest book was actually called The Glorious Foods of Greece.
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The Food and Wine of Greece is more, it's still in print.
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It's more of a. You know, if you wanna know how to make
7:32
the basics, that's the book.
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Mm-hmm.
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All the food that people have heard of, you know, especially in the United
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States, but the glorious foods of Greece, which took me eight years to research
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and write, which was kind of like doing a PhD thesis in, you know, in in Spanta,
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in Greek food.
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Um, really was, it was ahead of its time.
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That book, it was an, an exploration of the regional cuisines.
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It came out at a time when nobody was thinking about that.
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This was 1990.
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Uh, it was long before the Olympics.
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It was long before the infrastructure in Athens or in Greece was such that Athens
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had access to regional ingredients.
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It was, it was before its time, that book, but it was a, i I
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think it's a really great book.
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Um, it's one of those books that for serious people
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seriously interested in food.
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So that book
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was just opened the door.
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To my own realization that every region of Greece has, is so rich in its own way.
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Mm-hmm.
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And Ria, you know, my RIA books are a little bit different because I'm very
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much a part of the island and I'm there, you know, this year I spent five months
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on the island, uh, teaching and you know, just being, just living, just being.
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But those books are more, they're, it's, the first book is more
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about the food of the island.
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The second book is more about.
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The food.
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Food in the spirit of the island.
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So kind of, you know, plant-based, plant forward eating for longevity,
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you know, that sort of thing.
9:06
Yeah.
9:06
But Athens is different because Athens, everything, every region in
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Greece, every trend in Greece, every.
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Aspect of Greek cuisine culminates in the, in the Greek capital in Athens.
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So, you know, getting that, distilling that for a book was actually very
9:24
interesting and fun challenge.
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So I, I really enjoyed writing this book.
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Yeah.
9:29
And did you have to propose it or pitch it to a different publisher?
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Or you, have you had a publisher that's been open to your ideas?
9:34
No, I've been with, I've been with St. Martin's and my, the same
9:37
editor for the last few books, so that's actually a very nice thing.
9:40
It's, it's.
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It's a comfort zone in a way.
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Yeah.
9:44
And my editor actually suggested the book to me.
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He said, Diane, you know, this is a book you have to do.
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And I was, Hmm, maybe.
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And then I realized it's a book I have to do.
9:54
Yeah.
9:54
So why don't you tell us a little bit about Athens, the city itself,
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and then, uh, let's talk a little bit about the food there, both
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tradition and traditional and modern.
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So, Athens is a fascinating city.
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Um.
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It doesn't look or seem or feel like any other city in Europe, at least
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any other city that I've been to, uh, in Athens never had a renaissance.
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So it doesn't have these grand boulevards and ornate, you know,
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set 18th and 19th century buildings.
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It has a very different feel.
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Um, it was essentially a very small city until the early 1950s, but after
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the war and after the Greek civil war.
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The population of the city just grew exponentially as people left, you know,
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their poverty stricken areas, as you know, in the countryside and flocked to
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the capitol for better opportunities.
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And that really set the pace for the city over the last,
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you know, six, seven decades.
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Um.
10:58
I have lived there since the end of 1992, since the fall of 1992, and I
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have seen, at least from my perspective, at least three transformations,
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huge social transformations.
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The first one.
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Um, when we were just starting out in our thirties, and that was the
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generation post-military dictatorship.
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It wasn't the people who are now in their seventies.
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It's the people who are now in their sixties, many of whom had
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the, for the good fortune to be able to leave and study abroad.
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And when they, you know, and they came, they many filtered back to Greece.
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So when they came back to Greece, they came back more sophisticated and
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they came back with, um, the desire to enjoy some of the things that they
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knew in New York or Boston or London or, you know, wherever they had, had
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spent their, their student years.
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And that gave rise to, um.
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Cuisines that had never been expressed in, in restaurant cultures in Athens.
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It was kind of a fun and crazy time when I first lived there.
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Um, I would go to the restaurant awards that were held by one of the sort of,
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um, listings, magazines at the time, and cultural magazines at the time.
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And the first year or two, I think I, you know, of course I had my full blown New
12:18
York, you know, snobbery upon me, uh, you know, what was then quite a provincial
12:23
city, at least to, you know, to me, and, and I don't say that, I say that more to
12:29
keep my, you know, humbling myself because there was always more to it than I, I
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understood at the very beginning, and I.
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I just recall, you know, witnessing the Polynesian restaurant at one of
12:45
the big hotels, being awarded the, you know, the best restaurant prize.
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And thinking to myself, this is really funny, we're in the Greek capital
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and there, you know, not one Greek restaurant won a restaurant award.
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It just didn't make any sense.
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So it was kind of this embrace.
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Anything and everything that was foreign.
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Greece had just entered the common markets, so there was all this
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new stuff coming into the country.
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There was a lot of money in the nineties in Greece.
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The stock market, you know, just took off a Traje a, a north,
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a northbound TR trajectory.
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Yes.
13:17
And, uh, with that came all sorts of fanciful, huge restaurants
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and a lot of fun, interesting and pretentious at the same time.
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Uh, food, uh, riding on the heels.
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Also, there was, you know, the molecular phase, so it was a lot
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of things were going on at once.
13:35
You'd go to a restaurants in Athens.
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You'd sit down and the waiter would have to almost come over and
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explain what was on your plate.
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You know, there was almost this, how, how to eat this dish approach to the,
13:46
to the dining scene, especially in, you know, more fine dining establishments.
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So I always took that with a grain of salt and I was a very, uh, merciless
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restaurant critic until I ran my own restaurant for two summers.
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And then when I understood how difficult it is to do that
14:03
consistently well on a daily basis.
14:07
I actually wrote a column apologizing to anyone.
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I had gratuitously, dissed.
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I think the newspaper got more calls like for that article than it was really funny.
14:17
I mean, I basically said, hands down, you, you know, the people, you the people
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that do this well every day are heroes.
14:24
Maybe the requirement now to be a restaurant critic for most people
14:27
would be to be on that side of the.
14:30
Uh, restaurant because I think that you're right to maintain something for,
14:35
and restaurants have been in business for so long and they're Oh yeah.
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Maintain the quality and maintain absolutely everything that they do.
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It's really a fe in New York, 40 years.
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I mean, that is a feat.
14:46
Yes.
14:47
You mentioned in the beginning that your father was the cook in the family.
14:50
Did he also have a restaurant?
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He had, um, some smaller type eating establishments.
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Mm-hmm.
14:56
But he was mainly a cook on boats.
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Yeah.
14:59
So he, you know, he was trial, he was in the Merchant Marines, so
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that, that was very typical Greek immigrant, especially from the islands.
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It was a very traditional job, let's say, that Greek men of that generation
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did, especially those who couldn't, who came from really poor backgrounds
15:15
and couldn't afford to go, you know, to study or, so that's what he,
15:19
that's how he, you know, supported us.
15:21
Yeah.
15:22
Um, but then.
15:25
Oh, go ahead.
15:25
Oh, go ahead.
15:26
No, you go ahead.
15:26
Yeah.
15:27
The small modern approach.
15:29
Yep.
15:30
So that trajectory led to this, you know, mushrooming of, you know, it
15:35
was a really fun time to be in Athens.
15:38
Uh, there was also this sense of freedom and liberation and sort
15:41
of all these dark shadows from the past that kind of dissipated and.
15:45
People were feeling something new and fresh for the first time.
15:48
It was very optimistic.
15:50
And then the 2004 Olympics were, you know, sort of there on the horizon.
15:54
And that gave birth, I think, to a lot of really great re rethinking and reinvention
16:02
of Greek cuisine, taking traditional dishes, um, getting creative with them.
16:08
Some of it was crazy and some of it was, you know, most of it was pretty good.
16:13
Some of it was.
16:16
Over the top, let's say.
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Um, but you know, that's okay.
16:20
That's part of the process too.
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I'm not, I'm not deriding that it was just, it was also a fun time.
16:25
And then after the Olympics came and went, we saw, you know, we experienced
16:30
very harsh economic conditions in Greece.
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And, you know, the crisis took its toll on restaurants.
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But I, what I found interesting was at that time.
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Was that despite the complete decimation of, you know, regular middle class
16:47
people and a whole brain drain and generational drain in Greece, you
16:52
know, this social experiment that was really un unfair and unfounded.
16:58
Um,
17:00
PE Greeks are very social people.
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And one of, I think one of the reasons Greeks have done so well
17:07
in the hospitality industry is because we are very social people.
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Mm-hmm.
17:10
As it's part of our culture, we love to feed people.
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We're innately hospitable.
17:15
You never go to a Greek home, even if you're a plumber and you gotta
17:19
fix something, you're offered food.
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So it's just this very deep felt.
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Sentiment in, in our DNA, but you know, after the Olympics and everything kind
17:29
of came crashing down, restaurants adjusted, you know, a lot of places
17:34
shut down, of course, but restaurants adjusted by remembering the lessons of
17:40
beautiful plating and the aesthetics of the plate and all that, but using
17:45
much humbler ingredients and turning toward more traditional ingredients.
17:49
So there was a really good.
17:52
Decade in Athens between say 2009, 2010, and COVID.
17:59
Hmm.
18:00
Um, where one could eat out in the Greek capital in really great restaurants.
18:05
Not, I'm not talking about the Michelin star restaurants.
18:07
I'm just talking about great.
18:10
You know, not necessarily neighborhood places, just centrally located great
18:16
Greek modern taverna food and, and.
18:22
A really wonderful creative, but grounded food and all of that for 15 and 20 euros.
18:29
And then of course, COVID came and things changed radically and it's,
18:33
it's definitely not that cheap anymore.
18:35
But, um, it's still.
18:37
Access.
18:38
It's still accessible, but it's definitely gotten more expensive.
18:42
Yeah, and it looks like in the book, Athens, a lot of things in recipes are
18:46
tied to neighborhoods, markets and people, and yeah, it really does bring out that
18:53
hospitable attitude and approach that.
18:58
You mentioned in the book.
19:00
So what about the stories that you tell in the book?
19:04
Not just the recipes, but the, the stories and how you collected all of those?
19:09
Well, the story, a lot of it was research.
19:11
Um, a lot of it was just in my brain, you know, just having been there for so long.
19:18
Um, a, most of the recipes are.
19:23
There are some recipes that I, you know, directly from chefs and there are
19:26
a lot of recipes inspired just by food that I eat and have eaten, you know,
19:30
all over the city, all these years.
19:33
Sometimes I name that inspiration, like all, you know, there's some places where I
19:36
say, this is Lalu DA's, ground meat over.
19:40
That's a great dish.
19:41
It's, it's so humble.
19:43
It's really great.
19:44
It's this like, sort of cult Verna, um, on the edge of Athens.
19:50
It's a ground meat sauce over a, a pile of Greek fries with
19:54
grated Greek cheese on top.
19:55
It's, you know, it's not, that's not longevity cooking, but it's really good.
19:59
You indulge that once in a while, so it's okay.
20:02
Yeah.
20:03
Um, but you know, I didn't actually ask them for the recipe.
20:05
I've eaten the recipe at their place and I recreated it
20:08
myself because I'm always also.
20:12
You know, my recipes have an eye to the American cook as well, so I want
20:17
people to be able to, uh, cook this stuff in their own kitchens, whether
20:22
they're in Kentucky or New York or Los Angeles, you know, wherever.
20:26
Yeah.
20:26
But the, the food, look, I'm also a journalist, so the, for
20:30
me, the stories are the, you know, the best part of the book.
20:32
I think it's a writerly cookbook.
20:35
Um, I, um, I like that aspect of this book a lot, and I enjoyed researching.
20:39
I enjoyed.
20:40
Reconnecting myself to key figures like Nicos Menes, who was the, by
20:47
some, you know, a, a, a a person.
20:52
Um.
20:53
Worthy of, of de, you know, being demonized and by others or, you know,
20:57
sort of a saint in his own way, because he was a chef in the early part of the 20th
21:02
century and his name became synonymous with the word for cookbook, and he
21:07
really reinvented, he, he FFR ified and modernized westernized Greek cuisine.
21:14
So.
21:16
Some of the things that we take for granted today would not
21:18
exist had it not been for, uh, the, you know, his additions.
21:23
Things like bechamel sauce to pio, you know, those sorts of dishes.
21:27
So, yep.
21:29
Um, so I, you know, the Athens is a multifaceted city and
21:34
I tried to capture that.
21:35
Look in any book it, this is only.
21:38
Worth the moment in time in which it's published.
21:41
Right?
21:42
Yeah.
21:42
If I were to write, if I wrote this five years ago, it
21:44
would've been a different book.
21:45
If I wrote, if I write it in five years from now or, or reedit it in five
21:49
years from now, it would be different.
21:51
Now the city is going through another transformation.
21:54
It's the whole Instagram generation who's manning the stoves in restaurants.
21:59
And it's not all about restaurants.
22:01
It's, you know, also home.
22:02
Uh, most of it's home.
22:03
It's all home cooking.
22:04
Yeah.
22:04
But yeah.
22:05
You know, this generation has a very different connection to Greek,
22:09
their own, um, traditional food.
22:12
They're much more open in terms of, oh, let's add goji berries to this and
22:18
let's add, you know, some turmeric and some ginger and some mung beans, you
22:21
know, to, let's make fava with mung beans instead of yellow split peas.
22:25
So they.
22:28
Or they have a much more, a freer spirit, I think, in many ways.
22:33
Yeah.
22:33
One of the things I love to do when I, um, get books for people who are gonna
22:38
come on the show is look at the table of contents, and I wonder if you'd
22:41
take a journey through cookbook writing over the years for you and how table.
22:46
The table of contents for cookbooks have changed because I feel like when
22:49
I look at Athens, you have chapters like Salad Days in Athens, and then you
22:54
speak of the Verna, which is actually referring to the place, uh, the style
22:59
of cooking in the taverna, carbs, Allah, Athens, and then Athens in the Sea.
23:04
So you really get a feel for what's in this book by looking at the table of
23:10
contents, and it's not the traditional.
23:12
You know, appetizer, meat, soup, salad, dessert anymore.
23:15
It's seems like people are really having more fun, I think, with table of contents.
23:20
I see.
23:21
I, I agree.
23:21
I think that's true and it's, yeah, I, I agree.
23:27
I think that's also something that, um, makes a book more interesting because
23:32
you think about food in a different way.
23:34
It's not just.
23:35
Because I mean, I could have done that.
23:37
That's the easy way.
23:38
Just it's very methodical, you know, starters, appetizers,
23:41
street food, you know, whatever.
23:43
But I think there are so many stories to tell.
23:48
Uh, I, that was the puzzle for me.
23:51
Fitting, fitting those stories in.
23:53
Where do you know, where do you put the, where do you put the, yeah, where
23:56
do you put, um, the, you know, the profile of Nico Menes or the piece about.
24:03
Um, you know, the history of PIO or, you know, where does that go?
24:06
Is PIO in the pasta chapter?
24:08
Is it in the ground meat cha, you know, it, it's always, there are always ways
24:13
to cross crossover, cross boundaries.
24:17
And you even have a chapter that is related to what you mentioned in
24:20
the beginning of the show, the new Direction with the plant forward Athens.
24:25
And so I, I'd love to maybe, uh, take a chapter, talk a little bit about it,
24:30
um, and take a little bit of a dive into the book through one of the chapters.
24:34
I don't know if you have one in mind or if you want me to pick one.
24:37
Why don't you pick one and, okay.
24:41
Put me in a pressure.
24:42
In a pressure cook.
24:43
Let's talk about the plant forward Athens, because you've, um, this is
24:47
something that you said has, uh, been spotlighted in the blue zones and also
24:54
on the island, but that, how is it making its way into Athens and what, you
25:00
know, what's it doing to cooking there?
25:02
So now, now in Athens, there are numerous, uh, vegan restaurants.
25:09
Um, and plant forward is not the same as plant-based 'cause there's actually
25:14
animal protein in some of those recipes.
25:16
It's really about, you know, changing the geography of the plate a little
25:20
bit, focusing on plants, but not, not disparaging animal protein necessarily.
25:26
But there are definitely, look, first of all, Greek cook cooking.
25:30
It's very easy to be vegetarian in Greece and it's, it's.
25:33
It's pretty easy to be vegan.
25:35
Mm-hmm.
25:35
Because we have such an incredible wealth of plant-based dishes that are
25:40
just part of the traditional cuisine.
25:42
A lot of those dishes, uh, evolved because of the fasting traditions.
25:48
Yeah.
25:48
Yeah.
25:49
I talked to a cookbook author about that once using the, uh, the
25:52
fasting for, I think it was in the Greek Orthodox Church during Lens.
25:55
Yeah.
25:55
Yeah.
25:56
What's the name of the, um.
25:58
There's a word that she used to describe that time.
26:01
Um, but everything that they cooked was during that time
26:05
was vegan, was almost vegan.
26:07
You're allowed to have bloodless seafood.
26:09
So shellfish and cephalopods.
26:12
Interesting.
26:12
Um, but, and if you abide by that fasting calendar, you're basically
26:18
going off almost all animal products, with the exception of what I just
26:22
mentioned for about half the year.
26:24
Hmm.
26:25
So there are, and just this in, there's an incredible array of plant-based
26:31
dishes and regional specialties too.
26:34
So, so was it always present but people just didn't talk about it in the same way?
26:38
I think it was just so.
26:40
So obvious that people never, you know how you sort of, like, you walk
26:43
past the same building every day.
26:45
Yeah.
26:46
You suddenly, one day you stop and you notice a detail even though
26:48
you've seen it a hundred times.
26:50
It's kind of that, I think Greeks never think of themselves
26:53
as plant forward eaters.
26:56
Uh, they, Greeks love meat by the way, you know, today, I mean, in this
27:01
day and age, there I think consumed some of the, you know, largest
27:06
quantities of meat in, in the eu.
27:08
Mm-hmm.
27:11
They, uh, they embrace, you know, there's a lot of plant-based
27:17
region, you know, just.
27:18
Stuff that you eat in season also, where it's a country where the
27:21
produce is of exceptional quality.
27:23
Mm-hmm.
27:24
So everything tastes really good.
27:26
Yeah.
27:26
You know, it's always eaten.
27:27
In season, it tastes really good.
27:29
But in Athens, that trend I think has.
27:33
It's become trendy.
27:34
I mean, there, you know, there are vegan fast food places now there are a lot of
27:39
the vegan food that served in Athens is actually, you know, not processed food.
27:43
So a lot of it is real food, you know, so to speak.
27:47
Um, so I think that's just a trend.
27:52
You know, you, you also, it's, I think it's a younger person's trend, I think.
27:58
You know, certainly my kids, my daughter's in her early thirties,
28:01
she has friends who are vegan.
28:03
Mm-hmm.
28:04
Um, I think it's more of a young person's trend, but yeah.
28:09
You mentioned also the produce markets that are available.
28:12
People's markets in neighborhoods.
28:16
Yes.
28:16
Everyone shops in their neighborhood.
28:19
Street market.
28:20
Yeah.
28:22
That comes once a week to your neighborhood.
28:24
It's where you find the freshest produce and you know, fruits and
28:27
vegetables and they sell us often, depending on the size of the market.
28:31
Sometimes some people there are fish stalls there sometimes.
28:35
Um, sometimes there are other, you know, sort of, sort of house
28:40
cheap clothing or household stuff, kitchen, basic kitchen equipment.
28:46
Um.
28:47
But it's, you know, it's, yeah.
28:49
It's one of the great things about living in Athens, the
28:51
like RA in every neighborhood.
28:53
Yes, yes.
28:55
So in this chapter then, how did you, are these, uh, traditional Greek
28:59
recipes that had always been plant forward or did you take some and
29:04
make them plant forward for the book?
29:06
No, they were mostly inspired, um, by stuff that I've eaten in, in Athens.
29:13
Um, let me get to some of them so I can also refresh my own memory.
29:17
So I see chickpeas, lemony chickpeas a lot, several couple,
29:21
several chickpea recipes.
29:23
Yeah, because I, I think I love chickpeas.
29:25
A chestnut dish with prunes, um, giant beans baked with, uh, smoked pork wine
29:31
and uh, so that's not a vegetarian dish.
29:34
Yes, that's right.
29:34
That's right.
29:35
But it's plant forward still with the beans.
29:36
I see.
29:37
Yeah.
29:37
Yeah.
29:38
Interesting, the combination of beans and pork, kind of like a French calee.
29:43
You talk about the influence of the French, uh, cooking and the addition
29:48
of bechamel and, uh, makes me think about a similar type of dish there,
29:52
um, with that particular recipe.
29:55
Yeah, so we, you know, Greeks love beans.
29:56
We eat a lot of beans.
29:58
Beans are, by the way, the number one longevity ingredient.
30:00
So I've always eaten beans, you know.
30:03
Then you see other, you see.
30:05
Combinations of things, and this is, I think a little bit, uh, you know, it's
30:09
telling of what's going on in the cuisine now where people are taking ingredients
30:13
because they're more accessible.
30:14
You find them in the supermarket, you know, taking preserved lemons
30:18
or harissa or things that just didn't exist in Greece, in the
30:22
markets even a few years ago.
30:24
Mm-hmm.
30:25
I live near the central market, so when I, and I'm, I walk
30:27
past there almost every day.
30:29
And there's, you know, always stuff from other pla, you know, ethnic foods
30:33
that I noticed for the first time.
30:36
Um, uh.
30:38
Chestnuts are, I love to cook with chestnut, and this is sort
30:42
of a trend in Athens right now.
30:43
There are several restaurants serving this chestnut stew.
30:47
Mm-hmm.
30:47
Uh, chickpeas have always been part of the Greek diet.
30:51
They are among the oldest, uh, legumes in the Eastern Mediterranean.
30:55
They've been eaten basically since the Bronze Age.
30:58
So that's, um, you know, that's something that.
31:04
It has always been part of our diet.
31:06
And then there are, there are, um, recipes inspired by restaurants.
31:12
There's a little place, um, Olympian is near, it's near the stadium
31:17
in, it's near the, the, the, the, uh, what we call the first origin.
31:21
You know, the Cali Marma, which is in the area of PTI or Mets.
31:27
It's a, it's a walking distance from Central Athens and.
31:31
I, I like that little place.
31:32
They serve very good home food, home cooked food.
31:35
Um, so there's just a lot of, yeah.
31:39
You know, just a lot of it is just inspired stuff that I like.
31:42
It's, you know, you have to cook what you like too, so.
31:44
Right.
31:46
Right.
31:46
What about ingredients?
31:47
When you think about, um, people in the US using these recipes, having access to
31:53
ingredients, is there anything that you can think of that you would love to have
31:57
people keeping on hand in order to, uh, be successful with cooking from the book?
32:03
I think really good Greek olive oil, and that's easy to find.
32:09
Uh, probably Greek honey.
32:11
One of my favorite ingredients, and it's appears in a lot of the recipes
32:15
in the book, is something called Pet Me, which is Grape Molasses.
32:20
You, you might see it in Middle Eastern shops as Eckes, and that
32:24
is something that, uh, it's one of the oldest sweeteners in the world.
32:28
I, I use it a lot.
32:29
I use it in sauces, in, you know, I use it in dressings.
32:33
Um.
32:34
I would probably seek out, you know, some good feta cheese, some Greek
32:37
feta if possible that was, you know, sheep's milk or sheep and goat's milk.
32:42
Um, you know, I would keep a Mediterranean larder.
32:46
Yeah, that's, you know, basically what I would do.
32:48
Olives, um, uh, capers, uh, you know, good herbs, um, you know, garlic.
32:56
I would keep a Mediterranean lardo.
32:58
Yeah.
32:59
Can we talk about the taverna for a minute and tell us a little bit
33:02
about that style of, uh, cooking that style of a, a restaurant?
33:07
Or is it a style of home cooking, uh, what that concept means?
33:11
Taverna means,
33:16
uh, I would say a friendly, inexpensive.
33:24
A gathering place where.
33:29
You, you find most, you know, all of the traditional dishes that we know.
33:34
Uh, things like the fava, which is the yellow split P puree, Greek meatballs,
33:38
you know, different sorts of chicken dishes, maybe, maybe some of the,
33:42
the vegetable and bean casserole, um, you know, other sorts of meat dishes.
33:47
Sometimes, uh, stuff on the grill, meat on the grill.
33:51
Sometimes there are fish venos, which where the menu is predominantly
33:54
seafood, you know, based, um, you know, good salad, seasonal stuff.
34:00
And it's usually in, most veno menus are more or less the same.
34:05
They usually have, you know, maybe somewhere between 15 and 20 small
34:09
plate offerings, the Maza plates.
34:13
So things like the Sana, which is the pan fried cheese or seafood
34:16
sana, or, um, maybe a black eyed pea salad or something like that.
34:23
Um, all the dips, you know, so the vena was essentially a gather
34:29
is still a gathering place where you can, you know, go and enjoy
34:34
a, you know, pretty basic meal.
34:38
Um, more or less home cooked.
34:41
Um, you know, with, oftentimes with table wine, just rustic, you know,
34:46
table wine, the house wine, um, they tend to be neighborhood places still.
34:53
Um, they did go through a period of reinvention as well.
34:57
They were, there was a time, and they, there are a few still like that,
35:00
where they were kind of upgraded.
35:02
They were given a facelift and they were, you know, modern, modern tovaras or.
35:07
You know, post, uh, industrial Tavernas, you know, that sort of thing.
35:11
Um, but yeah, for the most part, sometimes there's music and you know,
35:15
sometimes, uh, you, you find RNAs where there's music on the weekend.
35:20
So yeah.
35:23
Very good.
35:23
Sounds, uh, like a appealing little place.
35:25
I love those kinds of restaurants and I think that when you go to a
35:29
new city, finding a place like that sometimes really is, uh, very, um.
35:34
Connected to the people of that city, the people that live there,
35:38
the people that work there.
35:39
And I think it's a terrific way to, um, probably introduce
35:42
yourself to, um, absolutely.
35:44
I mean, happens.
35:45
And if you can't make it, then you have the recipes here in the book that someone
35:48
can get a feel for that in their own home.
35:50
Yeah, absolutely.
35:51
I mean, it's sort of akin to the trattoria, it's that kind of idea,
35:54
you know, it's a, it's a. A low key, fun, friendly place where you
36:00
get, you know, just basic good food.
36:03
Yeah.
36:03
Greek basic good Greek food.
36:05
Yeah.
36:06
So, um, writing and doing many cookbooks and your relationship with
36:11
cooking and being a journalist, uh, how's this evolved for you over time?
36:18
How has it evolved?
36:19
Yeah.
36:21
Uh.
36:23
I've been doing this a long time.
36:25
Yeah.
36:25
Did anything get easier or did anything get harder as you
36:28
have moved through your career?
36:30
Uh, it's a whole different world now because of the internet.
36:34
So, you know, when I first started out, whatever you did, you had to do
36:41
in person, you had to actually show up.
36:43
Um, and I think it's a very different world now.
36:48
Um, I also think.
36:52
The world.
36:52
I mean, I was also a restaurant critic, so I would, you know, that's
36:56
also changed with all of the, you know, sort of more democratic apps
37:01
where anyone could, can be a critic.
37:04
Um, but I think, you know, I'm, now, I'm more, I'm, as I get
37:11
older, I'm more interested in food.
37:14
For health and food.
37:16
I'm interested, I'm always interested in Greek food history because that's my
37:20
way of re of connecting to my own roots.
37:22
Mm-hmm.
37:23
But I'm also very interested in, in the therapeutic value of food and eating
37:30
certain things for, you know, the, the trend of sort of food as medicine.
37:34
Mm-hmm.
37:34
That's also very ancient Greek.
37:37
Philosophy, you know, it's much more than a trend.
37:41
Um, and I, I'm exploring that more and more now.
37:45
Yeah.
37:46
You know, you get older, you have, if you become more aware of your
37:48
own mortality and you think, oh, let me know, let me try to hold on
37:51
a few more years by getting better.
37:52
Yeah.
37:52
Yeah.
37:52
And also I think we just, I don't know about you, but there are certain
37:55
things when I eat, just when I eat a a certain way, I always just feel just.
38:02
It's just a better feeling in my head, in my body, in my sleep.
38:07
Everything just feels better.
38:09
And yes, uh, when I don't eat that way I don't feel as well.
38:14
So I think it's fascinating that with tweaks in what we eat,
38:17
it is possible to physically.
38:21
Feel better.
38:21
And I know at the cellular level in our bodies, they have to be just as happy
38:26
because that's why we feel better.
38:27
Right?
38:28
Yeah.
38:28
Right.
38:28
Absolutely.
38:29
And I'm sure that's what the, I know the blue zones, that's what
38:31
they investigated and found that the way that the people ate on the
38:34
island, uh, tended to lend itself to.
38:39
Good health and longevity.
38:41
Absolutely.
38:41
It's, you know, se and seasonal, plant-based or plant
38:45
forward and a lot of movement.
38:47
Yeah.
38:48
So I'm, I'm more and more interested in that now and I see
38:52
the difference in myself too.
38:53
I mean, I lost like 35 pounds in the last.
38:56
Two years.
38:57
In fact, the other day I got a, I got this weird message on my
39:00
Instagram on the, you know, messages.
39:04
You know, you're obviously on ozempic, shame on you for being a chef on Ozempic.
39:07
Like, yeah.
39:08
And, and I wa I, I didn't respond, but I thought, you know, that's, we have
39:13
so much power in our own minds that I think as women, especially as I don't,
39:20
I mean, I'm now in my mid sixties.
39:22
Mm-hmm.
39:23
So as I grow older.
39:26
I'm much more comfortable with that, my own, like self-empowerment.
39:30
Mm-hmm.
39:30
And I don't feel like, I know I have to give an excuse for
39:34
myself or apologize for anything.
39:38
And I think that, you know, losing weight because you discipline is self-love.
39:44
So, you know, when you, when you can control your, how, you know, your, your,
39:51
your lesser uh, desires, let's say.
39:55
I stopped using food as a, as my psychiatrist.
39:58
Yeah.
39:58
Yeah.
39:59
And.
40:00
And it feels very good.
40:01
That's also self-empowering.
40:03
So it's very self-empowering and I think that, you know, with, there's so many
40:07
ingredients then that lend it themselves to delicious meals, delicious food that,
40:12
uh, the legumes, the plant forward eating.
40:15
Yeah, the, the color in our vegetables and our fruits, the grains.
40:19
It's, uh, just a terrific time to explore all of that.
40:22
And also with so much coming out, you know, even about.
40:25
Your book, um, from Athens and, uh, that way of eating
40:29
reflected in a whole chapter.
40:30
So, and like you said, it's been part of what has probably
40:33
been done for a long time.
40:35
Uh, but it's great to explore it through the lens of a, a
40:40
culture and a city and how.
40:42
Their plant forward food would, uh, be represented.
40:45
So I really appreciate you offering that.
40:48
And, um, I'm excited to dive more into the blue zone and the, uh,
40:52
the island work that you've done.
40:53
And a couple of your cookbooks were related to that also, then Martha?
40:56
Mm-hmm.
40:57
Yeah.
40:57
Yeah.
40:58
I wrote two books about, yeah.
41:01
Um.
41:03
And the, the second one was a New York Times bestseller.
41:06
So that was a, that was a very gratifying moment, let's say.
41:11
Yeah.
41:11
Yeah.
41:11
And I think that goes to show you, I think other people have an
41:14
interest in that longevity as well.
41:16
I think so too.
41:17
Yeah, I think so too.
41:17
I think we're all, you know, I'm always in shock when I travel in the
41:21
United States and I see the quality of the food supply and also just
41:25
the things that people are eating.
41:27
Mm-hmm.
41:28
And it's very.
41:32
Different from the way we in in the Mediterranean.
41:35
Yeah.
41:36
Yeah.
41:37
Well, I know that you're, um, out on book tour now.
41:40
I do have one last question I like to ask my guests, and that is if you
41:45
in your kitchen at home, if you have a favorite cookbook that you have
41:49
turned to that's inspired you over the years, um, and what that might be.
41:54
Oh,
41:57
uh, that's a good question.
42:00
Um.
42:02
I mean, I can tell you the book that I used a lot when I first started cooking
42:10
was The Good Housekeeping Cookbook.
42:13
Mm-hmm.
42:14
And I still remember this lime souffle that I used to make from that book
42:20
that, you know, I was in my mid to late twenties and, you know, newly
42:26
married and this was the, you know, this, it was, it felt like such a.
42:31
An achievement to make this lime souffle.
42:34
It was really, it was fun, but yeah, I, it's, it's not, not what
42:38
I would have thought I would say.
42:40
Yeah.
42:41
Yeah.
42:41
And I think that that's what happens.
42:43
There are these cookbooks that maybe even are not reflective of
42:46
what we maybe have done as cookbook authors, the life we've had in food,
42:50
but it's still a memory that is.
42:52
You know, deep within us as a book that, uh, was around the
42:56
kitchen and something that we use.
42:57
So I appreciate you sharing that.
42:58
It's always very fun to hear what cookbook authors, uh, say and, uh, it's
43:03
great to hear that that was your book.
43:05
So what's on, uh.
43:07
What's on the docket for book promotion and, um, tell us a little bit too
43:12
about how people can connect with you online, outside of the tv, the TV show.
43:16
Obviously we need to tune into that, but Yeah.
43:20
Uh, I'm easy to find, uh, info@dianecchi.com.
43:24
Um, and my Instagram is at diane Les.
43:28
It's my, it's basically my name.
43:30
Mm-hmm.
43:31
Um.
43:33
What else can I say?
43:34
Uh, I always answer my messages, uh, most of the time personally.
43:39
Yeah, that's great.
43:41
I love that.
43:42
And I think that, I don't know, cookbook authors to me, and I don't know if
43:45
it's because we're in such a tactile environment, like, you know, food and I.
43:51
Managing hot things, cooking, talking to people, teaching classes.
43:55
I just think that a lot of us, you in particular, the
43:59
hospitality just does come out.
44:01
It's a part of part of who you are.
44:03
So I could imagine that you probably do answer your own messages.
44:07
I could, yeah.
44:08
Because I think we're we, our life is our work.
44:13
It's not like I clo, you know, I turn everything off
44:16
at five o'clock and that's it.
44:18
Yeah, that's right.
44:18
It's, um, this is my creative life, so I am, you know, vested in it.
44:23
I'm in, I'm in it, I'm involved in it.
44:25
So, yeah.
44:27
That's great.
44:28
But yeah, and you know, I would, I would, uh, ven, I would invite, uh.
44:33
People to come and take one of my classes, Inia, we have an incredible
44:37
time and it's really a life-changing experience for many people.
44:40
Yeah, that sounds terrific.
44:42
Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show to talk about
44:45
your new book, Athens Food Stories.
44:48
Love, and I wish you nothing but the best with the promotion and uh, thank
44:54
you so much for coming on the show and introducing your brand new book
44:59
to all of our cookbook love listeners.
45:02
Thank you so much.
45:02
Thank you for having me.
45:03
Maybe I'll see you in Greece.
45:04
Yes.
45:05
I need to come to one of your cooking classes.
45:07
That would be fun.
45:08
Yes, it would be.
45:09
Thanks.
45:10
Have a great day.
45:11
Okay, you too.
45:13
Thank you so much for joining us today for this episode of the Cookbook Love Podcast.
45:18
Again, all the links can be found in the show notes@www.cookbooklove.co.
45:23
And if you are interested in writing a cookbook of your own, please check out the
45:28
free cookbook writing masterclass called How to Get Paid to Write a Cookbook.
45:33
It is designed specifically for food or nutrition experts,
45:37
and you can check that out at www.cookbookwritersacademy.com/free.
45:45
So that's it for today's episode of the Cookbook Love podcast.
45:48
This is your host, Maggie Green, and until next time, have a great day.
45:52
And keep loving your cookbooks.
45:59
Thanks for listening to the Cookbook Love podcast.
46:01
You can find out more information@www.cookbooklove.co.