Latest / Journey to the Fringe / Skeptics and failure be damned - Uri Geller part 2 of 3

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Skeptics and failure be damned - Uri Geller part 2 of 3 · Journey to the Fringe

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from the unexplained to the mundane. Come join
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us on a Journey to the Fringe. Hello and welcome
0:12
to Journey to the Fringe. We're following up
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on our Uri Geller saga. When we left off the
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wee lad with the exotic accent, he was living
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high on the world, having failed miserably on
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Johnny Carson, and stumbled upon all... Talk
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shows actually wanted him still, and succeeding
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very well at the SRI studies. So Chelsea, this
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is where the episode picks up. He's sitting high
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on life, Project Stargate's looking at him because
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he did quite well. at the SRI studies and they
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said, Hey, Ray Hyman, you need to come look at
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this guy right off the bat. There are a lot of
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critics of how put off and why do I always forget
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the other guy's name? Russell Targ, Billy Meyer,
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Billy Meyer study. They were too big. I'm skeptical
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of their study too. I'm gonna be honest. Critics
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of this experiment included many people, but
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the first ones we're gonna talk about are David
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Marks and Richard Kamen, who published a description
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how Geller could have cheated in the informal
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test of his so -called psychic powers. Their
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1978 article in Nature and 1980 book The Psychology
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of a Psychic, they described how a normal explanation
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was possible for Geller's alleged psychic powers.
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Marks and Kamen found evidence that while at
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SRI, Geller was allowed to peek through a hole
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in the lab - wall separating him from the drawings
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he was being invited to reproduce. What? These
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drawings were placed on a wall opposite the people,
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which the investigators, Tark, and Pudoff had
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stuffed with cotton gauze. In addition to this
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error, the investigators had also allowed Geller
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access to a two -way intercom, enabling him to
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listen to the investigators' conversation during
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the time when they were choosing and or displaying
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the target drawings. These basic errors Marks,
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after evaluating the experiments, wrote that
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none of Geller's paranormal claims have been
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demonstrated in scientifically controlled conditions,
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concluding that Geller has no psychic ability
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whatsoever. However, he did believe him to have
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a very clear well -practiced magic act. Marx
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and Kamen tested Geller's ability to mentally
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repair watches and found that, quote, many supposedly
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broken watches had merely been stuffed by gummy
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oil and simply holding them in his hand would
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warm the oil enough to soften it and allow watches
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to return to ticking. Now to get to Reheimann.
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This is how Ray Hyman got involved in the skeptic
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movement, which is how he ends up being put in
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charge of this question of Yuri Geller. It was
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by one person alone, Alice Cooper. James Randi,
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whose name came up early with Johnny Carson,
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we're gonna talk about him later, was touring
3:00
with Alice Cooper as part of a stage show, and
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Alice Cooper asked James Randi to invite Hyman
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to a show in order to ask his advice about the
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audience. While there, quote, Randi pulled me
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aside and said, really ought to do something
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about this orieller business. Let's form an organization
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called the SIR, the Sanity in Research. And in
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1972, he joined with Martin Gardner and they
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had their first meeting and the three of them
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felt they had no administration experience. Quote,
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we just had good ideas, end quote. And we're
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soon joined by Marcello Truzi, who provided structure
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for the group. Truzi involved Paul Kurtz and
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then they formed the CSICOP in 1976. In an interview
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in 2009 with Derek Colandano for the Skepticality
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podcast, Hyman was asked his opinion of the modern
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skeptical movement. Sorry, Uri Geller's coming.
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I just want to set up Ray Hyman, because he is
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a cool guy. I was almost gonna say, do we need
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like, what would we call it, like, bad boys?
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Anti -Abyssal episodes? Yeah. Anti -asshole,
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like, bad boys of the skeptic societies. I'm
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interested in his work. I think that'd be really
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cool. Not that I'm, like, pro -skeptic, because
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I love fleets of fancy. The right skeptic, yeah.
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Not one who wants to shit over everything. I
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want one who wants to see the real shit. Yeah,
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like us like I want to believe in Serpo, but
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I just don't because I'm familiar with Richard
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Doty I still like it, but I'm not gonna shoot
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down everything like I do want to hear more about
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this You know what I mean? Yeah, so anyhow Hyman
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responded that skeptics need to have goals and
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a way to measure them They need to become a resource
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for the public and focus on educating journalists
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and teachers quote that way we will get more
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Bing for our buck," end quote. On the current
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state of the skeptical movement, Hyman stated,
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quote, the media unfortunately has made it so
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we have many more believers, end quote. Less
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science teachers in the classrooms, major newspapers
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are firing their science writing staff, 24 -hour
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news channels are trying to fill all that time
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and compete with Fox News, quote, things aren't
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good. That was 2009. Back to where we were, Hyman
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was asked by DARPA to investigate Uri Geller
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and then Hyman was intrigued by the story and
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Chelsea, I think this story came up in the Edgar
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Mitchell story where Uri Geller had been around
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NASA and he had taken a ring and he mentally
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manipulated it so it was in an S shape. I don't
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remember it. Okay, that's fine. That's as much
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as we need to know. Basically, he had broken
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a ring like with his mind. What a dick. Hyman
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had heard the story and he's like, I need to
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look into it. Uri Geller had set it on a table
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and without touching it, the ring stood on end,
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broke in half, and formed itself into an S -shape.
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Upon questioning all the scientists at the lab,
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Hyman discovered that no one had actually seen
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this happen. but had heard stories from others
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that it had happened. Weird how these stories
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come up, Chelsea, about all these things happening
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around Uri Geller, but it's not attributed to
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him, it's people are talking about it. Yeah,
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that's how people gossip. That's just like human
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nature. You ever play - But I feel that's apt
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from how you finished off the end of the last
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episode, how people are saying these things.
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Oh yeah, George and Uri saying that watches just
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stop - what? Yeah, true. The watches just stop
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working if you need a reminder. There's no way
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that - happened to a ring. I've seen rings and
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they don't do that. Hymen continued to question
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the scientists and discover that no one had ever
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seen Geller bend anything without touching it.
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In fact, quote, Geller was allowed to take the
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object into the bathroom and then come back with
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the bent object they took his word for it. End
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quote. Kate, I do think he has powers. If you
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give me four hours and a spoon and nobody around
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for accountability, I have powers too, dammit.
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Like how how is that not powerful to be able
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to like have all manipulate people? Yeah, this
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is insane Then quote, the parapsychologist also
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sent to investigate saw a psychic and I reported
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back that I saw a charismatic fraud. End quote.
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So Hyman reports back to the government that
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Geller was a complete fraud and as a consequence
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Targ and Putoff lost their government contract.
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The result is they go on a publicity tour. All
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of them. Geller, Targ and Putoff to seek private
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funding for further research work on Geller.
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I love that. There's a happy ending to that.
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And he doesn't actually get involved with Project
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Stargate. Look, that's where it gets cut off.
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Did we know that? We did Project Stargate. Yeah,
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I know! I can't remember. We did it a while ago.
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He doesn't actually end up getting involved with
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it. He's just low to those names that's really
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attached to it. Maybe we knew that, but I'm glad
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that we're going over it more thoroughly now.
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And in an encyclopedia of claims, frauds, and
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hoaxes of the occult and supernatural, James
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Randi writes, quote, How put off in Russell Targ,
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who studied Mr. Geller at the Stanford Research
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Institute, were aware in one instance at least
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that they were being shown a magician's trick
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by Geller. Their protocol for this series investigation
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of the powers claimed by Geller were described
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by Ray Hyman as Sorry, continue on because that's
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a quote within a quote. Critics have pointed
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out that both Putoff and Targ were already believers
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in paranormal powers and Geller was not adequately
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searched before the experiments. Psychologist
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C .E .M. Hansel and skeptic Paul Kurtz have noted
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that the experiments were poorly designed and
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open trickery. This is amazing on so many levels.
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Do you think that Uri Geller could exist today?
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Yes, he still does. I mean, like for him to have
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come to being during this day. Yes. Because RFK
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Jr. exists. That's true. Second point I have
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to make is I just pulled up this book because
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this book sounds fantastic. Is there a picture
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of James Randi on there? Wow, those eyebrows.
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Oh, that's James Randi, isn't it? Oh yeah. He
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is a wizard. Yep, those are wizard eyebrows for
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sure. Don't take that picture away because we're
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about to talk about James Randi now. Good, I
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want to look at him in the eye like this. James
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Randi begins his career as a magician under the
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stage name The Amazing Randi, and later chose
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to devote most of his time to investigating paranormal,
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occult, and supernatural claims. But during Alice
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Cooper's 1973 -74 billion dollar babies tour,
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Randi performed on stage as a mad dentist and
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as Alice Cooper's executioner. He also built
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several of the stage props, including the guillotine.
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And that's where Everybody met each other for
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the debunkers group Alice Cooper on James Randy's
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death had this quote I am so proud to say that
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for a brief time the greatest of them all the
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Amazing Randy was part of our traveling troupe.
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He was our illusion guru and taught me everything
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I know about how magic could meet rock and roll
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his genius helped the billion dollar babies show
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become the spectacle No one had ever seen he
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was rock and roll's Gandalf end quote. I love
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this It just keeps getting better. I want to
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read this book. James Randi out at everybody
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is Geller's biggest opponent. He claims once
10:06
that Geller was a fraud who took advantage of
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helpless people. This seemed to be true according
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to Ori's first autobiography where he stated
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that sometimes he would dupe the audience to
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think that he knew their vehicles plates when
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it was his manager who had earlier provided them
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to him. Randy even made a habit of performing
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Gellar's so -called paranormal displays on stage
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to prove that they were all an illusion. Like
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he would word for word redo a magic show just
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to show that this was not magic. I can't love
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this. This guy just like wants to see his downfall.
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And this is hilarious. So Randy would actually
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get accused of having psychic powers to perform
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acts such as the spoon bedding. And according
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to James Alcock, at a meeting where Randy was
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duplicating the performance of Ory Gellar, a
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professor from The University of Buffalo shouted
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out that Randy was a fraud Randy said yes indeed.
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I'm a trickster. I'm a cheat I'm a charlatan.
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That's what I do for a living everything I've
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done here was for trickery And the professor
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shouts back, quote, that's not what I mean. You're
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a fraud because you're pretending to do these
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things through trickery. But you're actually
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using psychic powers and misleading us by not
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admitting it. End quote. I love the heavy use
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of the word trickery. A similar event involved
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Senator Clare Bourne Pell, a confirmed believer
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in psychic phenomenon, where Randy personally
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demonstrated to Pell that he could reveal by
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simple trickery a concealed drawing that had
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been secretly made by the senator. Hell refused
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to believe that it was a trick, saying quote,
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I think Randy may be a psychic and doesn't realize
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it. Randy consistently denied having any paranormal
11:39
powers or abilities. And according to Higginbotham,
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this result caused Randy to realize that much
11:45
more must be done to stop Geller and those like
11:47
him. So in 1976, Randy approached Ray Hyman,
11:50
a psychologist who had observed the tests of
11:53
Geller's abilities at Stanford and thought them
11:55
to be a slip shot, and suggested that they create
11:56
an organization to combat pseudoscience, which
11:58
we talked about, the Committee for Scientific
12:00
Investigations of Claims of Paranormal, CSICOP.
12:04
And using donations and sales of their magazine,
12:06
The Skeptical Enquirer, they and secular humanist
12:09
philosopher Paul Kurtz took seats on the executive
12:12
board and they also included Isaac Asimov and
12:15
Carl Sagan as members of the board. And Randy
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traveled the world on behalf of CSICOP, becoming
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its public face according to Hyman, the face
12:25
of the skeptical movement. I love James Randy.
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What a cool guy. I know. I really like him. I
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feel like he deserves his own episode. No kidding.
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Yeah, it turns out it's an Urgellar episode and
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again We have so many more people like you're
12:40
not expecting to come up, but they are I love
12:43
him and Chelsea Do you know who was working at
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SRI at the time of Urgellar being there? Yes?
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You don't, so I should just tell you. It's Jacques
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Vallée. Oh! So weirdly enough, he's around and
12:54
Uri Geller's there. Vallée does not endorse Geller's
12:58
claims, but he did not dismiss them either. He
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instead treats Geller as a data point within
13:03
a broader pattern of anomalous cognition, and
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Vallée notes, "...describe Geller as a complex
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subject whose performance were difficult to categorize,
13:12
and he acknowledged that some of the SRI results
13:14
were ambiguous and that the experimental conditions
13:17
were not always I - deal, but he also noted that
13:20
certain sessions produced outcomes that were
13:21
not easily explained by conventional means. Velay's
13:25
interest in Geller was less about spoon -bending
13:27
itself and more about what Geller represented,
13:29
the possible overlap between psychic phenomena
13:32
and altered states of consciousness. That was
13:34
something. Are you making this whole thing up?
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You would think! It's just gonna keep getting
13:40
weirder because Chelsea, we're gonna talk about
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he's on top of the world, he got onto all the
13:45
talk shows, he had that SRI study that is absolutely
13:48
destroyed, but what do you think he does from
13:50
here? I'm gonna stop you right there. He becomes
13:53
a mineral dowser. But why? After the 70s in the
13:57
80s, he shifts his work from the televised and
13:59
towards private consulting and he describes himself
14:02
as a mineral dowser. He claims he's able to locate
14:05
oil, gold, and other resources including diamonds
14:08
in the ground. According to his own account,
14:12
he charges a standard fee of 1 million pounds
14:14
during this time. What? In 1986, an Australian
14:19
skeptic reports that the mining company Xanax
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paid Geller $250 ,000 and granted him an option
14:25
for 1 ,250 ,000 shares at 20 cents each. The
14:29
contract was tied specifically to the identification
14:32
of a potential diamond deposit, but the place
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he identified never finds a single fucking diamond.
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And he still got paid. I apparently still got
14:40
paid. I don't know if he got to take advantage
14:42
of the stock option. What the fuck? But that's
14:44
where he actually ends up making like all his
14:46
money apparently because i can't find much about
14:49
it but he says it too makes all his money in
14:52
mineral dousing during this time good for him
14:54
Is it? I mean, yeah, he's taken it from pretty
14:56
terrible people, but I don't know. I don't know,
15:00
but he seems doing pretty good for himself for
15:03
this. I don't know. He says he performed this
15:05
for many mining and oil companies over this time,
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and he's been way described as remote sensing
15:09
or map dousing rather than traditional tools.
15:11
He claims he can detect underground structures
15:13
by holding a pendulum over geological maps or
15:16
by focusing on areas mentally. None of these
15:19
results are ever independently verified. Funny
15:22
enough, you can I don't know if it's on Amazon,
15:25
but you can finally get a regular mineral dousing
15:28
set that you can buy yourself. Oh, I'm not even
15:31
interested. If you ever want to get into it.
15:35
And during this time, he expands his consulting
15:38
into other categories and into other sectors.
15:41
He worked with Readings FC. Oh, fuck, sorry.
15:44
This is where it gets into sports. So he works
15:47
with a football club called Reading, and he says,
15:50
we're going to get positive energy into your
15:52
group to avoid being sent down to the lower level.
15:54
So he places crystals behind the goals at Exeter
15:57
City before a critical match. That Reader FC
16:01
ends up losing 5 -1. He advises cyclist Bruce
16:04
Burrisford. on mental preparation for speed record
16:07
attempts. Geller occasionally offered assistance
16:09
in criminal investigations. One of his cases,
16:12
he predicts that a kidnapped woman would be found
16:14
alive. She is never located. What? How was he?
16:17
Despite the lack of confirmed success, Geller
16:20
continues to work the services for corporations
16:23
and private clients. He described controversy
16:25
as beneficial to his career, maintains that skepticism
16:28
increases his demand for his abilities. So is
16:32
it just the legend around him? By this point?
16:35
Like, how is this happening? I don't know, because
16:37
failing seems to help him. Legends shouldn't
16:40
be helped by that. I don't feel like I've heard
16:43
a success of his. I'm not even gonna let you
16:46
guess what happens here in the year 2000. Okay.
16:49
He sues Nintendo. Do you know why? I remember
16:52
this. I can't remember why. There's a Pokemon
16:55
that he thinks kind of looks like him. Oh, yeah.
16:58
Named Kadavra, because it's bending a spoon.
17:01
Yep. I remember this. He says this was an unauthorized
17:04
use of his name and spoon bending persona, and
17:07
he argues the character's design, which included
17:09
a bent spoon and psychic abilities, damaged his
17:11
reputation. Geller sought substantial damage
17:14
and attempted to block the character's use in
17:17
trading card and merchandise. And for 20 years,
17:20
Kadabra is not allowed in the trading card game.
17:23
What? He won? No, the lawsuit's unsuccessful.
17:26
But they voluntarily just stopped printing this
17:29
card because they're like, who fucking cares?
17:31
But you know what? It is who cares because it
17:35
probably just makes it more valuable because
17:37
they stopped printing it. That's probably what
17:39
Nintendo thought. Like, if we can't print this,
17:41
these things are worth so much. Yeah. I don't
17:44
know why in 2020, he decided that like, no, you
17:48
can just print them. So he'd like that's the
17:50
lawsuit's over in 2020. And this is the last
17:55
thing we're going to talk about in this episode,
17:57
Chelsea. In 2009, he buys an island off the coast
18:01
of Scotland. And by off the coast, I mean like
18:04
100 meters off the coast of Scotland. It's called
18:07
the Isle of Lamb. It is uninhabited. It is 100
18:10
meters by 50 meters. And Chelsea, I want you
18:13
to just Google Lamb Island and tell me what you
18:15
see. What the fuck is that? That's a dock. Is
18:17
that not a dock? Lamb Island, Scotland. It does
18:20
not even have a dock. Oh, that's a shitty island.
18:24
Yeah, you can't live on it. Is this? No, this
18:27
is Isle of Ewe. Oh, here, I will share my screen,
18:31
Chelsea. There's one sheep on Isle of Ewe. Lamb
18:34
Island is located right here. So Google Maps.
18:39
Here's Edinburgh. Here's Glasgow. Here is the
18:43
Isle of Lamb. south dog this one this one here
18:49
oh this is the island he bought that's a real
18:52
shitty island how big you can't live on this
18:54
island very big no nobody can live on this island
18:57
it's 100 meters long nope it's not that big there's
19:01
not even a tree he apparently's been to it but
19:04
like i don't know how you could actually like
19:06
even dock to do that What would you do on that
19:09
island? Oh man, Chelsea, I'm just gonna read
19:11
this part and then I'm gonna read his story on
19:13
his island, on his website. He buys in 2009,
19:17
Lamb Island, off the eastern coast of Scotland,
19:20
and they say it's previously known for its witch
19:22
trials. It can't be. You can't do witch trials
19:25
on that island. No, just looking at it, no way.
19:28
Is this him saying that or is this actually Doug?
19:30
This is off of Wikipedia, so probably him saying
19:33
it. And apparently beaches that Robert Louis
19:35
Stevenson is said to have described in his novel
19:38
Treasure Island. No, I don't believe it. I realize
19:40
it's still staring my screen, but like again,
19:42
there's no beaches on this island. No, I don't
19:44
believe this. This is made up. Furry Geller's
19:46
making it up. Why would he do such a thing? Geller
19:49
claims that buried on the island is Egyptian
19:52
treasure brought there by Skoda, the mythological
19:55
half -sister of Tutankhamun in Irish mythology
19:58
3 ,500 years ago, and he claims that he will
20:00
find the treasure there through dousing. Geller
20:02
also claimed to have strengthened the mystical
20:04
powers of the island by burying in a crystal
20:07
orb once belonging to Albert Einstein. In 2022,
20:11
Geller sought to declare Lamb as the Republic
20:13
of Lamb, a micronation. this is fucking made
20:16
up oh boy has he done that like so hard okay
20:21
can i just read you the description on google
20:23
map yeah go ahead uninhabited offshore island
20:27
flanked by several smaller islands reachable
20:30
by boat there's reviews oh yeah what's the one
20:33
star Now owned by Uri Geller, who wants to make
20:37
it an independent country and part of the EU
20:39
lol, well buddy it's part of the UK. Additionally,
20:43
Sturgeon and her nasty party SNP followers will
20:46
never let you take it from her clutches. That
20:50
was nice. Oh, this guy has a five -star review.
20:53
Colin Jones says, had a mind -bending experience
20:56
here or maybe it was a spoon. And yeah, like
21:01
that's what he's been up to. There's a origeller
21:04
museum which he owns in Tel Aviv which you can
21:08
go visit but like outside of that those are all
21:10
the things he's got going on and in the next
21:12
episode we're gonna talk about like all the people
21:15
he's associated with and all the predictions
21:17
he's making because apparently he's also a psychic
21:20
which hasn't come up until this point. I'm having
21:23
troubles wrapping my head about around what the
21:25
fuck is going on with this guy and why is he
21:28
who he is. Yeah, and I don't know if I'm gonna
21:30
make it make more sense later on either Chelsea
21:33
I can absolutely understand how you're not gonna
21:36
bring any logic to this you know what this is
21:39
pretty standard for stuff like this in this community
21:42
it seems like the legend is preceding him somehow
21:46
and with each fail the legend becomes stronger
21:49
and people become more enthralled with him maybe
21:54
this is super crazy he doesn't even seem to be
21:57
putting out anything good no I I can't think
22:00
of one thing that he's actually done where you'd
22:02
say like, oh yeah, this contributed to the community
22:05
or like moved anything forward was even like
22:08
something tangible to work with. It's not like
22:11
he's writing books or like doing anything other
22:14
than just saying that he can bend spoons. Well,
22:17
I shouldn't say I'm pretty sure during this time
22:19
he is writing books as well, but nothing important.
22:23
No, it doesn't seem like it's so, so weird. I
22:26
don't know. I can't wrap my head around it. Because
22:28
yeah, on his website itself he has a page called
22:31
Books. I can't tell if he's written these books
22:33
or they're books about him, but there's a ton
22:36
of books in there. Or books he recommends, maybe.
22:39
Mmm, could be. But yeah, it's hard to say. That's
22:42
enough for this episode. I have been Taylor,
22:44
here with Chelsea. We are Journey to the Fringe.
22:45
Thank you all for listening. I'll see you next
22:47
week. Bye. Thank you for listening to Journey
22:51
to the Fringe. If you have liked what you have
22:54
listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or
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23:22
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23:26
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.