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The Work That Heals Us All with Ignacio Rivera, MA · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Trauma Thepist podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early
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Speaker 1: going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma Theverist podcast
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Speaker 1: and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma Nevers Podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: who experienced trauma. My name is Ga macpherson and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us. Dashio ay ready, yes,
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Speaker 1: all right, so five four, three, two and one, our folks,
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Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have back.
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Speaker 1: Ignacio Rivera, Ignacio, welcome.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much for having me again.
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Speaker 1: Awesome. So. Ignacio, who prefers a ginger neutral pronoun they,
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Speaker 1: is an activist, writer, educator, sexual healer, filmmaker, performance artist,
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Speaker 1: and mother. Ignacio has over twenty years of experience on
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Speaker 1: multiple fronts, including economic justice, anti racist and anti violence work,
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Speaker 1: as well as muherista, LGBTQI and sex positive movements. Their
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Speaker 1: work is influenced by their lived experience of homelessness already
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Speaker 1: in sexual trauma. Nacio's work is also driven by strength
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Speaker 1: of identifying as a survivor, transgender, black Bica I know
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Speaker 1: and queer. Welcome back, super psyched to have you back.
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Speaker 2: Look, thirty years, that's all. It's an old bio that
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Speaker 2: I got an update, but it's actually been thirty years
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Speaker 2: of activism.
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Speaker 1: Yes, wow, amazing, amazing. Look when we first spoke, Look,
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Speaker 1: you just exude an energy and a positivity that I
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Speaker 1: loved having on this podcast. I hope this is what
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Speaker 1: this is about, and that's why I wanted to bring
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Speaker 1: you back before we get going, share with our listeners
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Speaker 1: again where you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, lived
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Speaker 2: there for many many years, but now I am currently
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Speaker 2: after moving around to different places, I'm currently in Georgia. Wow,
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Speaker 2: in the South. Now, I love it.
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Speaker 1: I love it awesome. So for those listeners maybe who
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Speaker 1: didn't catch our first interview, obviously I read your bio.
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Speaker 1: But how do you explain to people what you do?
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Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting. I talk about this a lot
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Speaker 2: because usually when people say what do you do for work?
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Speaker 2: I'd say, how do I say what I do? So
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Speaker 2: I say, I trow you know, I work to prevent
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Speaker 2: an end childhood sexual abuse and all forms of sexual
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Speaker 2: violence through using sexual liberation. And so actually I leave
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Speaker 2: the sexual liberation part and I say I work on
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Speaker 2: ending and preventing childhood sexual abuse. And most often people
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Speaker 2: you know, say, oh, that's wonderful, you know, God bless you.
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Speaker 2: You're doing such amazing and beautiful work and necessary work.
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Speaker 2: That's great that you work with children. And then I say, oh,
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Speaker 2: I don't work with children. So there the confusion comes in. Right,
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Speaker 2: there's like, how do you work on ending childhood sexual
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Speaker 2: abuse when you're not working with children? And so there's
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Speaker 2: a deeper conversation that happens there around that's working to
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Speaker 2: prevent an in childhood sexual abuse is everyone's work adults
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Speaker 2: the area. Adults like job, It's the thing that we
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Speaker 2: should be all striving for. Right, So it is we
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Speaker 2: don't do direct service work. We do cultural shifting root
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Speaker 2: you know, root work. We are trying to identify the
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Speaker 2: root causes of childhood sexual abuse. Why does this you know,
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Speaker 2: epidemic like continue to happen and through generations, through centuries,
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Speaker 2: I mean, is this continues on and on and on.
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Speaker 2: So what is the root cause of this thing, this
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Speaker 2: thing that we see are. So it's such a silo
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Speaker 2: right when we think about childhood sexual abuse that even
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Speaker 2: that work is done very separate from the work of
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Speaker 2: anti violence and to end work to end rape and
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Speaker 2: sexual assault of adults. So here are two anti violence
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Speaker 2: kind of movements happening, but they are not together at all.
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Speaker 2: They're very separate, which is concerning. It's concerning. So we
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Speaker 2: do this bridge work. It's like we try to locate
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Speaker 2: the roots, but we're bridging work many many different movements
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Speaker 2: to the work of prevention and ending of childhood sexual abuse,
4:47
Speaker 2: which goes beyond that. The work that it takes to
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Speaker 2: prevent and end it is actually the work that heals
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Speaker 2: us all. So it is there is a huge loop
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Speaker 2: and a connection into the work that we do to
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Speaker 2: make sure that this doesn't happen and to our own
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Speaker 2: humanity and our being as to how we see it,
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Speaker 2: deal with it, how we deal with harmdoers, all of
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Speaker 2: these things, and the work that we the work that
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Speaker 2: I do is with an abolitionist framework. So that blows
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Speaker 2: people's minds too. It's like, how do you do work
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Speaker 2: about childhood sexual abuse that obviously has a harmor a
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Speaker 2: perpetrator and you're not talking about justice criminal you know, jail,
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Speaker 2: and so that's another huge piece that we talk about.
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Speaker 2: It's like the cycle of this violence for us incorporates
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Speaker 2: the quote unquote criminal justice system. That system only helps
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Speaker 2: to ensure that sexual abuse continues.
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Speaker 1: And so let me pause you for a second. I
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Speaker 1: want to I wanna talk more about that, but before
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Speaker 1: we do, before we get there, how did all this
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Speaker 1: start for you? Wow?
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Speaker 2: It started from my own experience. I am a survivor
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Speaker 2: of childhood sexual abuse and also adult rape and sexual violence,
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Speaker 2: and so I have been trying to heal and navigate
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Speaker 2: my healing from what happened to me as a child,
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Speaker 2: and that violence, that trauma reverberates throughout your entire life,
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Speaker 2: because when you think about it, this is about relational dynamics,
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Speaker 2: right our own self, our own self worth, our own boundaries,
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Speaker 2: our own knowing, and then someone taking complete advantage of that,
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Speaker 2: especially someone that you care about and love. I'll just
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Speaker 2: input here that child sexual abuse is pretty much ninety
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Speaker 2: percent perpetrated by people we know. So I just want
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Speaker 2: to put that out there very clearly, especially as we
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Speaker 2: do campaigns about strangers, stranger and things like that, which
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Speaker 2: is a very much, much, much, much much smaller percentage.
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Speaker 2: We're dealing with people we know, we see every single day.
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Speaker 2: So I was I've been trying to heal through that
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Speaker 2: and through my healing and trying to find words to
7:15
Speaker 2: describe it at the same time as like navigating relationships,
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Speaker 2: failing in relationships, failing in my own finding my own boundaries,
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Speaker 2: being a people pleaser, you know, failing in so many
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Speaker 2: ways because I haven't gotten to heal from this, this
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Speaker 2: violence and this trauma. So one of the things that
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Speaker 2: kept coming up for me was sex. Like sex is
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Speaker 2: a topic that is never, ever, ever ever discussed when
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Speaker 2: talking about preventing childhood sexual abuse, which is actually mind
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Speaker 2: blowing to me. Right, So sex, what do you mean
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Speaker 2: that the topic of sex doesn't eat exist within trying
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Speaker 2: to heal or talk about childhood. We talk about it
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Speaker 2: as there was an evil harmdoer, and here is a
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Speaker 2: victim that harmdoer must be punished. Right. We think about
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Speaker 2: it in those ways, and then we're not we're not
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Speaker 2: thinking about it in this in this grander kind of
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Speaker 2: a way. Like I lost my train of thought. I'm
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Speaker 2: sorry you were asking me.
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Speaker 1: Well, you you said something very interesting to me. You said,
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Speaker 1: when we're talking about the subject of childhood sexual abuse,
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Speaker 1: we don't talk about sex.
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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, right, right, so right, so we we
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Speaker 2: kind of, yeah, we pushed that under. We pushed that
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Speaker 2: under because like our sex, which is basically our body,
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Speaker 2: our reactions, our desires, all of this stuff is what
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Speaker 2: is completely altered from those violent encounters. That is all
8:53
Speaker 2: completely altered. So when we see people who are survivors
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Speaker 2: and they're saying, my relationships are not well, you know,
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Speaker 2: I can't hold onto a relationship or whatever, because it
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Speaker 2: is because the dynamic, the relational dynamic, was completely altered.
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Speaker 2: Right in the beginning, we're talking about trust. Right, relationships
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Speaker 2: are built on trust. They're built on trust and care
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Speaker 2: and curiosity, and all of that was taken away. So
9:18
Speaker 2: how do we build relationships when the very core of
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Speaker 2: how we build relationship was completely damaged And we don't
9:24
Speaker 2: talk about it, right, We don't really talk about it.
9:27
Speaker 2: We talk about it as, oh, this incident, a horrible
9:30
Speaker 2: incident that happened. But because they're so young, they'll forget
9:32
Speaker 2: about it, will They're resilient, Right, children are resilition. They
9:37
Speaker 2: will survive. Yeah, they're resilient. But that alters your DNA,
9:42
Speaker 2: like it just alters. This trauma is inside of you. Right,
9:46
Speaker 2: So in order to talk about what happened, we need
9:49
Speaker 2: to be talking about all types of relationships. How we
9:52
Speaker 2: navigate friendships, loverships, you know, how we navigate being in
9:57
Speaker 2: long term relationships. A lot of have a difficulty doing
10:02
Speaker 2: that because of trust and because of not understanding our
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Speaker 2: own boundaries, because they were just demolished at a young age.
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Speaker 2: This is when we learn where what is a boundary? Well,
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Speaker 2: how do I say no to someone? How do I
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Speaker 2: say yes? How do I say? Give me a moment
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Speaker 2: to think about this. So we don't learn those things.
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Speaker 2: We learn that people have power over us and we
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Speaker 2: navigate like that, and so conversating about sex, relational dynamics
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Speaker 2: and stuff is very important. But instead we only talk
10:33
Speaker 2: about it in the justice sense. Something was wrong, somebody
10:36
Speaker 2: did something wrong to you, and now that person has
10:39
Speaker 2: to suffer. So once that person gets in trouble, gets
10:42
Speaker 2: put in jail, gets to suffer, then it's over. And
10:46
Speaker 2: it really isn't. It is not over like this trauma
10:50
Speaker 2: is a trauma that unfortunately stays with you, stays with
10:54
Speaker 2: you for a long, long time, if not forever. It
10:57
Speaker 2: changes in a lot of ways, but it is very
11:00
Speaker 2: it is very deep and intense sort of trauma. We
11:04
Speaker 2: understand the trauma that people go through when a loved
11:07
Speaker 2: one dies. We actually have space for mourning for those things.
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Speaker 2: We actually can understand ten years later when somebody says, yeah,
11:15
Speaker 2: my father died ten years ago, and we're like, oh
11:17
Speaker 2: my god, I'm so sorry, but that is horrible. I
11:21
Speaker 2: could totally understand that. We can really empathize with ten
11:24
Speaker 2: years passing and still someone deeply crying over the loved one.
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Speaker 2: But we have no space for that. When it comes
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Speaker 2: to someone completely violated my body repeatedly for years when
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Speaker 2: I was a child, I don't know how to have
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Speaker 2: a relationship. Oh's that's really sad. That's too bad. We
11:44
Speaker 2: have no we have no way to kind of grapple
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Speaker 2: and discuss that without shaming, silencing. You know, it's usually
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Speaker 2: around I have to silence this about me or there's
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Speaker 2: a lot of shame that I can't I can't move
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Speaker 2: past it. I can't go on. I can't figure this out.
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Speaker 2: And a lot of it is I think it can
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Speaker 2: be figured out, but I think that we are in
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Speaker 2: a system that doesn't support survivors in the way that
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Speaker 2: we need to be supported, and we need to be
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Speaker 2: talking about this on a larger scale, not as these
12:18
Speaker 2: incidences that happen here and there. This actually happens every day, everywhere,
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Speaker 2: all the time, right now, right now, There's so many
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Speaker 2: children being sexually assaulted. Right now. There are people being raped,
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Speaker 2: men and women. It happens. And so we have to
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Speaker 2: grapple with that reality and understand the root causes of
12:34
Speaker 2: it so that we can shift those root causes. And
12:38
Speaker 2: that is really the stuff that we talk about at
12:41
Speaker 2: the Heal Project. It's about that's why we're called the
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Speaker 2: Heal Project. In order for these things to end, we
12:46
Speaker 2: must heal. We heal to end all of this. And
12:51
Speaker 2: so what is healing It is coming back into ourselves.
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Speaker 2: And really it's about this self reflection. It's about really
13:00
Speaker 2: digging into ourselves and and and understanding who we are.
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Speaker 2: I think, uh, violence, when violence kind of comes into
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Speaker 2: our life, it just completely shifts everything and we have
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Speaker 2: to get back to a groundedness. And that's really difficult
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Speaker 2: to do when the trauma that you have experienced is invisible.
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Speaker 2: In some it's pretty invisible in some ways.
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Speaker 1: How did you you know, you talked about your own experience?
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Speaker 1: How did you manage and deal and begin to heal?
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Speaker 1: And obviously not not that the healing is over, but
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Speaker 1: now things when you were, when you were younger, how that?
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Speaker 1: What did that process look for you? For you?
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Speaker 2: It was rough. I didn't even know where to begin.
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Speaker 2: For me, my young years were suicidal. I attempted suicide
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Speaker 2: several occasions, and somebody wanted me here because it never worked.
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Speaker 2: But that's that's how desperate I was I which I just.
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Speaker 1: Couldn't what age are we talking.
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Speaker 2: The Unfortunately, the first time I tried to take my life,
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Speaker 2: I was eight years old. So and I think about
14:19
Speaker 2: that a lot, the pain that an eight year old
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Speaker 2: holds to say, it's so much easier to take a
14:24
Speaker 2: handful of pills. Like where did I even get that
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Speaker 2: thought from?
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Speaker 1: You know?
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Speaker 2: And so the healing that and I'm still in healing.
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Speaker 2: I'm still do many things to heal. The work that
14:36
Speaker 2: I do is healing for me. It it took me
14:41
Speaker 2: a while to get into therapy, which I'll say right
14:44
Speaker 2: now is not for everyone. Talk therapy is for some people,
14:47
Speaker 2: not for all, but it's something that helped me, and
14:50
Speaker 2: so getting into talk therapy was one thing, but also
14:57
Speaker 2: talking to other people. This work that I do is
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Speaker 2: about community healing, right, It's about not being alone, because
15:03
Speaker 2: most survivors feel like they're alone. This is about talking
15:08
Speaker 2: to other people. So I started talking to a lot
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Speaker 2: more people and finding other survivors and really forming community
15:13
Speaker 2: with them and being able to share my story, because
15:17
Speaker 2: that's one huge thing for someone to be able to
15:22
Speaker 2: share their story when their story one was probably never
15:26
Speaker 2: heard or very much altered for the audience.
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Speaker 1: Right.
15:31
Speaker 2: So I think about my own story and telling my
15:33
Speaker 2: mom or my brother or something about when these things happen.
15:38
Speaker 2: As a survivor, we all know that when we start
15:40
Speaker 2: talking about it, we take into account the other person's perception.
15:45
Speaker 2: We think about what they can hold and what they
15:46
Speaker 2: can handle, and then we change the story so that
15:50
Speaker 2: they won't blow up or want to kill someone or something.
15:54
Speaker 2: So it's like we're holding the trauma the healing. And
15:58
Speaker 2: then as we tell people, it's almost like we hold
16:02
Speaker 2: that space as well, you know, because it goes you know,
16:08
Speaker 2: people just don't know how to handle that because we
16:10
Speaker 2: don't have the capacity. And so that's a part of
16:13
Speaker 2: that healing too, the capacity to hold that. How does
16:17
Speaker 2: one hold a story when a child or even an
16:20
Speaker 2: adult tells you this happened to me. How do we
16:23
Speaker 2: deal with that? And that even knowing that how to
16:26
Speaker 2: respond to that is a healing piece.
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Speaker 1: What was it like when you when one shares a story,
16:32
Speaker 1: there's the understanding that there's someone on the opposite end
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Speaker 1: of that, like you're just saying that they're listening to
16:38
Speaker 1: a certain degree. What was it like when you encountered
16:43
Speaker 1: someone who heard you, M.
16:48
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, that's just like tears, lots of crying and gratitude.
16:56
Speaker 2: It's it took a long time. It took a very
16:58
Speaker 2: very very long time from me disclosing for someone to
17:02
Speaker 2: really have the capacity. And this is not saying anything
17:05
Speaker 2: bad about the people that didn't, because it takes a
17:08
Speaker 2: lot to be able to hold that space. You know,
17:10
Speaker 2: some people don't have the capacity. They're going through their
17:12
Speaker 2: own stuff. So but it took a long time for
17:16
Speaker 2: someone to kind of say, wow, that's horrible, I'm so
17:22
Speaker 2: sorry that happened to you, Like, how are you dealing
17:25
Speaker 2: with this now? What could I do to support you?
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Speaker 2: They just asked questions, They were curious that's one thing.
17:33
Speaker 2: They were like, thank you for telling me. They were
17:35
Speaker 2: curious about what happened, and they asked follow up questions.
17:39
Speaker 2: A lot of times, it's something that's said and it's
17:42
Speaker 2: done because it's so heavy, nobody knows how to pick
17:46
Speaker 2: that up.
17:46
Speaker 1: You know.
17:47
Speaker 2: It's just like you tell somebody, hey, I was this
17:50
Speaker 2: happened to me from this age to this age. You
17:53
Speaker 2: know the person that did it. It happened in the house.
17:55
Speaker 2: You know, like they're in shock too, you know, they're
17:59
Speaker 2: until to shock. So this this violence doesn't only affect me.
18:03
Speaker 2: It affects me more so, but it also affects the
18:06
Speaker 2: people that I tell, That affects the family, affects everyone.
18:09
Speaker 2: So it is not just something that I'm going through.
18:13
Speaker 2: It's what everyone goes through. My family is still going
18:16
Speaker 2: through it, even though they don't want to talk about it,
18:19
Speaker 2: you know, because it's it's something that they're holding inside
18:22
Speaker 2: of them. Right And as I said before, you know,
18:25
Speaker 2: ninety percent of these things happen with people that we know.
18:28
Speaker 2: So we're literally navigating or not every day seeing people
18:34
Speaker 2: that we know are have have done harm, have experienced harm,
18:43
Speaker 2: and we don't know how to address it. And if
18:47
Speaker 2: I think, and sometimes that's why it's very I guess
18:53
Speaker 2: I don't want to downplay it, but I was going
18:55
Speaker 2: to say the simplest thing to do is to just
18:57
Speaker 2: throw someone away, right, because that's just like, well, they're horrible,
19:01
Speaker 2: they're violent, they're a monster. So I never want to
19:04
Speaker 2: see them again. And I'm going to tell everybody else
19:06
Speaker 2: never to talk to them, or never to do this,
19:08
Speaker 2: and never to do that. Right, And that is a
19:11
Speaker 2: very complicated place to be, a very complicated place to
19:16
Speaker 2: be because.
19:18
Speaker 1: You're talking about the perpetrator.
19:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for both sides. You know, it's it's
19:23
Speaker 2: a very complicated place to be because again, I want
19:27
Speaker 2: to what we try to do with the Hell project
19:29
Speaker 2: is we want to get out of this kind of
19:31
Speaker 2: language of monsters and saints. There is no such thing
19:35
Speaker 2: there really is. We as humans all have the capacity
19:40
Speaker 2: and the capability to harm, and most of us already have.
19:44
Speaker 2: Why because we're human. Why because we learn through our mistakes, right,
19:49
Speaker 2: And usually when we when we have a mishap and
19:53
Speaker 2: someone or a community is telling us that this is
19:55
Speaker 2: not the way to do it, with learning and you know, growth,
19:59
Speaker 2: then something can change. But when it is when it
20:02
Speaker 2: is counteracted with you know, rapists should be raped too,
20:08
Speaker 2: rapists should be put in jail. To do this, we're
20:11
Speaker 2: categorizing everyone in just one bubble, the monster. And just
20:17
Speaker 2: as survivors are complicated and complex, so are harmdoers. And
20:25
Speaker 2: we need to really come to terms with that because
20:29
Speaker 2: when we do, then we can see the humanity and
20:32
Speaker 2: the healing and all of us. If we don't, then
20:35
Speaker 2: we continue in a cycle of using carceral tools, carceral
20:40
Speaker 2: tools to get to some sort of healing or justice.
20:44
Speaker 2: And I mean like using like how prisons work. You know,
20:51
Speaker 2: it's like barcero, it's like how we do things and
20:56
Speaker 2: push throwing people under the bus or saying that they're
21:00
Speaker 2: a subhuman, all these things. It takes away any sort
21:04
Speaker 2: of possible healing for someone, right, And the idea that
21:08
Speaker 2: a person like that can never be healed is also
21:12
Speaker 2: very damning because it literally says, if you have harmed
21:18
Speaker 2: one time, that's it. You're done. You're done. Who Like,
21:26
Speaker 2: in reality, nobody wants to harm. I mean, I'm assuming
21:30
Speaker 2: nobody really wants to harm, but harm happens, right, right, So.
21:34
Speaker 1: To be fair, it is on a continuum of.
21:37
Speaker 2: Sort, yes, absolutely absolutely.
21:39
Speaker 1: Right if I tell a lie or you know, curse
21:42
Speaker 1: at someone, and then we might say on the opposite
21:45
Speaker 1: end of the continuum rape or sexual abuse or prolonged
21:50
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. I mean, you know, you talked about the
21:54
Speaker 1: word monster, and but isn't it wouldn't it be fair
21:58
Speaker 1: to say that maybe someone isn't a monster, and you
22:01
Speaker 1: could you could argue that some people are, but maybe
22:05
Speaker 1: that person committed a monstrous act.
22:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can say that a person committed a monstrous.
22:10
Speaker 1: Act, Yes, right, would could isn't it wouldn't it be
22:12
Speaker 1: fair to say that rape is a monstrous act? How
22:16
Speaker 1: do we talk about it? I mean, I guess I
22:19
Speaker 1: would say that it can't we have space for the
22:24
Speaker 1: anger that comes with that.
22:26
Speaker 2: Well, you just said something. You said, rape is a
22:28
Speaker 2: monstrous act. Yes, it can be. It could be a
22:30
Speaker 2: monstrous act, and it could be a mistake and it
22:32
Speaker 2: could be right Because when we talk about the definitions
22:35
Speaker 2: of things, all of these definitions are legal definitions, right,
22:39
Speaker 2: So that is all about legality. So when we talk
22:42
Speaker 2: about teenage, let's talk about teenagers. Teenagers who are you know,
22:47
Speaker 2: trying to have sex in something and there's a mishap
22:51
Speaker 2: and I say mishap because maybe there was a miscommunication,
22:55
Speaker 2: someone felt a certain way, and then afterwards, you know,
22:58
Speaker 2: and this is this is a huge segment of what happens.
23:01
Speaker 2: It's it's it's a people trying to figure things out.
23:04
Speaker 2: And so then in the legal terms, you know, when
23:07
Speaker 2: you start using like this person did something to me. Yes,
23:09
Speaker 2: there's absolutely room for anger. I think that we need
23:13
Speaker 2: to hold space for rage and anger and all those things,
23:17
Speaker 2: but that rage and anger should not be around the uh,
23:25
Speaker 2: the harm of another person. Right, So, transformive justice you've
23:29
Speaker 2: heard of this transformative justice is like, how do we
23:32
Speaker 2: deal with harm without causing more harm? Plain and simple?
23:36
Speaker 2: How can I heal from this stuff and not say
23:40
Speaker 2: I want to heal but I want you to die.
23:42
Speaker 2: I want to heal, but I want you to be
23:44
Speaker 2: right right, I want to heal, but I think you
23:47
Speaker 2: can be in jail for the rest of your life
23:48
Speaker 2: and be raped by five men every day saying you know,
23:50
Speaker 2: like like there, because that's rage, and I'm for the rage.
23:54
Speaker 2: I'm for I think it's very very important, and most
23:57
Speaker 2: times we tell people to hide that. No, I think
24:00
Speaker 2: there's room for rage, anger, there's room for throwing things around.
24:04
Speaker 2: I think there's room for all of it, and there's
24:07
Speaker 2: also room for a different way of dealing with harm
24:12
Speaker 2: right outside of this criminal justice system, because what it does,
24:16
Speaker 2: it only creates more harm. It does not problem.
24:21
Speaker 1: Was this view slash perspective that you have right now?
24:28
Speaker 1: Did this evolve? Did you get to this point.
24:33
Speaker 2: In some ways? But not really? Like, for instance, someone
24:37
Speaker 2: I was interviewed once about, you know, about my harmdoer,
24:41
Speaker 2: and they said, you know what, what would you have
24:44
Speaker 2: wanted to happen? Would you have wanted to call the
24:47
Speaker 2: police and you know, go through the system, And it
24:52
Speaker 2: was definitely a no, definitely a no. And so and
24:55
Speaker 2: there are a lot of survivors that would say absolutely not,
24:58
Speaker 2: like that's not the route I want to go, but
25:00
Speaker 2: it's the only route that is available. So sometimes people
25:04
Speaker 2: have to go through that route for a lot of
25:06
Speaker 2: different reasons. And again this is not doubting people, because
25:09
Speaker 2: we use the system when we need it, right Like,
25:11
Speaker 2: sometimes we absolutely have to use it because they're in
25:14
Speaker 2: danger immediate stuff and no one else is there to
25:17
Speaker 2: help them because it's such a siloed type of thing.
25:21
Speaker 2: But there are Oh but when I was doing that interview,
25:28
Speaker 2: that person actually said to me that all the other
25:31
Speaker 2: people that they interviewed, I think a majority of them
25:33
Speaker 2: said the same thing, that they wouldn't want to have
25:36
Speaker 2: to go through legal systems, and because the legal system
25:41
Speaker 2: was the only thing available, then they felt silenced and
25:45
Speaker 2: didn't know where to go because that's the only way
25:47
Speaker 2: to go. It's like, oh, that happened, let's call the cops. So,
25:50
Speaker 2: as I said.
25:51
Speaker 1: Before, you didn't want to do that because.
25:54
Speaker 2: Because it was my family member, right, and so that
25:58
Speaker 2: that I want it literally what I want it When
26:02
Speaker 2: every time I think about it, everybody asked me, what
26:03
Speaker 2: would you have wanted? For it to stop and for
26:06
Speaker 2: people to know about it and so that they could
26:08
Speaker 2: support and help me. That's it. Actually, I never even
26:12
Speaker 2: considered about my harmdoer. I was thinking about mentant. I
26:18
Speaker 2: just wanted it. I want that to be done. I
26:20
Speaker 2: want my parents to know, and I want some support.
26:25
Speaker 2: That was all that I wanted. Yeah, that was what
26:30
Speaker 2: I wanted, as you know, as a young person. That's
26:32
Speaker 2: but that's my thing. You know, everyone is different, and
26:35
Speaker 2: this is a very this is very subjective. This is
26:38
Speaker 2: why it's so it is very This is not an
26:41
Speaker 2: easy thing to say, monster survivor, and this is the
26:45
Speaker 2: route we go. None of it is like that. It's
26:47
Speaker 2: all very very subjective. Every I think that all these
26:54
Speaker 2: situations are very different, but the law legalities do not
26:59
Speaker 2: make them subject that. It is very much one person
27:02
Speaker 2: did something wrong, the other person was the receiver of
27:06
Speaker 2: that harm, and now somebody has to be punished.
27:12
Speaker 1: That way. When did you found the Heel Project.
27:15
Speaker 2: It's probably going to be eight years ago, but the
27:19
Speaker 2: idea of the Heal Project was probably fifteen twenty years
27:23
Speaker 2: ago because I did a one person show at the
27:27
Speaker 2: time about my experience as a survivor, and I traveled
27:33
Speaker 2: with that show for about four years, and through that
27:36
Speaker 2: show was very interactive with my audience, and so I
27:38
Speaker 2: got a lot of notes from my audiences. My show
27:42
Speaker 2: developed because of that that interaction and because of the
27:47
Speaker 2: amount of people that were disclosing to me that had
27:50
Speaker 2: never disclosed to anyone else. Actually, after my shows, it
27:54
Speaker 2: was just basically people disclosing to me about what had
27:58
Speaker 2: happened to them. So I had said, well, this is
28:00
Speaker 2: in need. I want to start the Heal Project. And
28:03
Speaker 2: the heal project actually back then stood for healing and
28:06
Speaker 2: healing healing encountered altered lives. Yeah, healing encounters altered lives.
28:14
Speaker 2: And so I put it out and being like, I
28:16
Speaker 2: want to hear stories of people and you know, sharing
28:20
Speaker 2: what your stories are. And at that point twenty years ago,
28:24
Speaker 2: people were not ready. They were not ready to talk
28:26
Speaker 2: about their stories. They were like, no, no, no, I want
28:28
Speaker 2: to tell you. I don't want to tell anybody else,
28:30
Speaker 2: you know. So the idea of the Heal Project, you know,
28:34
Speaker 2: was there, and I tried to get it started, but
28:36
Speaker 2: they weren't ready. Then twenty years later, there's some funding
28:40
Speaker 2: for specifically how to prevent an end childhood sexual abuse,
28:44
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm going to pitch my idea
28:46
Speaker 2: and I did and so I got funding for it.
28:49
Speaker 1: Wow. So okay, so how do you work now? What
28:52
Speaker 1: do you do there at the Heal Project.
28:54
Speaker 2: At the Heal Project, we do in the beginning, our
28:57
Speaker 2: work has really I love the work that we do
28:59
Speaker 2: because it's really like shifted in a way is the
29:02
Speaker 2: way we present the work through our engagement with people.
29:06
Speaker 2: So in the beginning, we did a lot of media creation,
29:10
Speaker 2: so on YouTube, we have tons of videos just media
29:15
Speaker 2: that we created on how to educate folks on different things,
29:18
Speaker 2: and so I have Pure Love Talks is a talk
29:21
Speaker 2: show two seasons that I did with my adult daughter,
29:24
Speaker 2: and it was basically a talk show about how I
29:27
Speaker 2: raised her and a sex positive household, what it was
29:30
Speaker 2: for her to have a parent who was a survivor,
29:35
Speaker 2: and we talk about sex, sexual orientation, all types of stuff.
29:38
Speaker 2: So we did two seasons of that with my daughter.
29:41
Speaker 2: Then we had Connecting the Dots, which was a show
29:44
Speaker 2: that we take everyday media like any movie, any song,
29:48
Speaker 2: any book, anything, and basically say we can take any
29:52
Speaker 2: piece of media and turn it into an educational opportunity
29:56
Speaker 2: to talk about CSA prevention. And so we prove that
29:59
Speaker 2: every time by picking these medias. I would have a
30:01
Speaker 2: guest come on and we talk about that show or
30:04
Speaker 2: that book and really delve into those things. So it's
30:07
Speaker 2: connecting the dots that we can be engaging with our
30:11
Speaker 2: children and stuff around this topic and it doesn't have
30:13
Speaker 2: to be the one day we need to talk about
30:16
Speaker 2: this particular thing, but it's weaved into our lives, right.
30:20
Speaker 2: And then we have a Caution Unrestricted, which is a
30:23
Speaker 2: platform where my co executive director and myself we are
30:27
Speaker 2: talking about our experiences as Survivors, and we had the
30:31
Speaker 2: first season was called Bad Survivor, and it's kind of
30:37
Speaker 2: a sarcastic, you know, a program where we say what
30:43
Speaker 2: we want and how we want to do it. So
30:44
Speaker 2: this is a space where we don't think about how
30:47
Speaker 2: other people are going to perceive this. We are going
30:49
Speaker 2: to say what we want to say. So we talked
30:51
Speaker 2: about Bad Survivors, how people basically survivors that need to
30:55
Speaker 2: be heard have to be a particular a particular look
30:59
Speaker 2: the the sexual assault had to be a particular thing.
31:02
Speaker 2: You know, you have to be a perfect survivor to
31:04
Speaker 2: get help, right. So we did five episodes on that,
31:07
Speaker 2: and then we did in the second season called Family Dirt,
31:10
Speaker 2: and we talked about basically the origins of our family
31:14
Speaker 2: and the first time we understood our sense of self
31:17
Speaker 2: and you know, so basically family dynamics and how family
31:21
Speaker 2: dynamics really works to either maintain or stop this cycle
31:28
Speaker 2: of sexual abuse. So a lot of media work, but
31:31
Speaker 2: right now we do lots of workshops and trainings. We
31:35
Speaker 2: do retreats for survivors to get to their healing, and
31:40
Speaker 2: then we do we're developing a training for organizations and
31:44
Speaker 2: for what we say healers. So when I say healer,
31:48
Speaker 2: I'm talking about therapists, sex therapists, guidance counselors, anybody who
31:52
Speaker 2: holds space for somebody else's emotions. Like we want we
31:56
Speaker 2: do a lot of training with healers or people who
31:59
Speaker 2: help folks navigate healing, because the people who are holding
32:03
Speaker 2: those spaces also need to be deepening their own sense
32:08
Speaker 2: of healing in order to hold someone else's healing right.
32:12
Speaker 2: And we teach a lot of stuff around how to
32:14
Speaker 2: be abolitionists and doing this work, how to not use
32:17
Speaker 2: carcorologic doing this work, Like, how do we do this
32:21
Speaker 2: work very differently than the last thirty years that we've
32:25
Speaker 2: been doing this work?
32:26
Speaker 1: Right?
32:26
Speaker 2: How do we shift how we talk about sexual violence?
32:30
Speaker 2: And really, for me, it's we talk about sexual violence
32:34
Speaker 2: after an attack, an assault, or a mishap has happened.
32:39
Speaker 2: We don't. It's not integrated. We're not talking about and
32:43
Speaker 2: not even sexual violence, just relational dynamics. Relational dynamics, we don't.
32:51
Speaker 2: We don't have a grasp on that we have. We
32:53
Speaker 2: have a better grasp on fantasy, love at first sight,
32:55
Speaker 2: things like that, like we have things that people would love.
32:58
Speaker 2: I mean, this is wonderful if that could actually happen
33:01
Speaker 2: for everybody. But it's not like we have a particular
33:05
Speaker 2: learning and and knowing that we have to have about
33:07
Speaker 2: ourselves in order to navigate this world. Right, It's about
33:11
Speaker 2: when we know ourselves. It is about how we get
33:14
Speaker 2: to understand our own boundaries, because that is how people
33:18
Speaker 2: can respect us and love us when we understand ourselves.
33:22
Speaker 2: And so healing is about getting to ourselves. When we
33:27
Speaker 2: talk about family, it's like we enter into a family
33:31
Speaker 2: that basically, you know, we enter into a family that's
33:35
Speaker 2: already made right that they're telling us, you know, how
33:39
Speaker 2: life is and how we got to be. Sometimes they
33:41
Speaker 2: even tell us what career we should have, what clothes
33:44
Speaker 2: we should wear, and things like that. We get the ideas.
33:47
Speaker 2: We get our sense of self from our family of
33:51
Speaker 2: origin or from our foster care, from the you know,
33:54
Speaker 2: wherever we grew up. So it's about going back, going
33:59
Speaker 2: back to how we developed our sense of self and
34:03
Speaker 2: being curious about these things because there is healing to
34:06
Speaker 2: be done. Because we live in the system. Like you
34:09
Speaker 2: cannot tell me that every I think, every person I've
34:12
Speaker 2: talked to every time that the people have something in
34:15
Speaker 2: their childhood right, because it is the beginning. If no
34:19
Speaker 2: one had it, it doesn't make sense, right because as
34:22
Speaker 2: humans we have we will have trauma because this is
34:26
Speaker 2: about trial and error learning. And then when we get older,
34:29
Speaker 2: we have retrospect. Right, We're like in retrospect and retrospect.
34:33
Speaker 2: So we're taking that retrospective power and going back and
34:36
Speaker 2: now we are trying to go to It's like we're
34:38
Speaker 2: going to the roots, ripping it out and reach replanting.
34:42
Speaker 2: That's we got. We gotta rip out those roots, those
34:45
Speaker 2: bad roots or those rotten roots that's killing the tree,
34:50
Speaker 2: and then get to get a new one and put
34:52
Speaker 2: it back in. And what is that? Mm hmm, And
34:55
Speaker 2: so what what is this? These new the new roots
34:59
Speaker 2: and there there?
35:01
Speaker 1: What are the rotten roots? Is that the the the
35:05
Speaker 1: naive way or the limited way of looking at what
35:10
Speaker 1: abuse is? What are those rotten roots that need to
35:12
Speaker 1: be pulled out?
35:14
Speaker 2: I think I think one thing that we should be
35:16
Speaker 2: grappling with is the and I think people are doing
35:19
Speaker 2: it now, which I'm loving. It's rethinking the relationships that
35:25
Speaker 2: adults have with children, specifically parents and their children. We
35:29
Speaker 2: see it all on social media now, like how to
35:31
Speaker 2: be a gentle parent, how to you know, how not
35:34
Speaker 2: to yell to your kids and stuff. It's like all
35:36
Speaker 2: this there's so much information now about stuff that my
35:40
Speaker 2: parents didn't know and their parents didn't know and stuff.
35:44
Speaker 2: So when we think about generations, we laugh about it,
35:47
Speaker 2: like my generation was the generation that kids were being abducted.
35:51
Speaker 2: Parents didn't know anything about safety and stuff, you know,
35:53
Speaker 2: even before that, right, we have so much trauma stories
35:57
Speaker 2: about that, right, And it's like because we're we every time,
36:03
Speaker 2: every generation, every generation, we're learning more and more and
36:06
Speaker 2: we've come to a place so we're like, oh, that's right.
36:10
Speaker 2: We have a responsibility to children, but we also don't
36:15
Speaker 2: have to completely control their lives, right, we don't like
36:20
Speaker 2: our jobs our jobs as parents. Then I think needs
36:23
Speaker 2: to have a grand shift, and which is happening right
36:27
Speaker 2: now because parents are actually seeing their children as people
36:31
Speaker 2: that are growing up. Right, And in the past it
36:34
Speaker 2: was like property. It is changing children from property to people.
36:39
Speaker 2: And when we change when their property in this world.
36:42
Speaker 2: And again this is not about saying people are bad,
36:45
Speaker 2: you know, this is about the system that we live in,
36:48
Speaker 2: fast paced system that shows us when we have our children, well,
36:52
Speaker 2: what are we preparing our children for when they're born, Like,
36:55
Speaker 2: what do we prepare them for? We prepare them to
36:58
Speaker 2: go to school so that they go to work. So
37:01
Speaker 2: we teach our children how to manage themselves enough to
37:07
Speaker 2: sit in a classroom for eight hours and to get
37:09
Speaker 2: lesson so that they could be good to go on.
37:12
Speaker 2: So the goal of our lives is in this system,
37:16
Speaker 2: this capitalist system. It's about school work and that's the
37:21
Speaker 2: measure of success. Right, and even marriage is a measure
37:24
Speaker 2: of success.
37:25
Speaker 1: Right.
37:25
Speaker 2: You go to school, go to a good school, get
37:27
Speaker 2: a good job, get married, boomed. You live in the dream.
37:30
Speaker 2: That's the life, right, that's the life we've been told
37:34
Speaker 2: is the dream. But now that's not the dream for
37:38
Speaker 2: many people. Everything has shifted. The way people buy houses,
37:42
Speaker 2: the people and relationships, marriage has changed, The way we
37:45
Speaker 2: raise children has changed. So all of this, I'm not
37:48
Speaker 2: saying anything new at all. This is all in the
37:51
Speaker 2: works already. You know, people are realizing the way that
37:54
Speaker 2: we have managed the dynamic, the relational dynamics with adults
37:59
Speaker 2: and children, and has severely deteriorated people's sense of self
38:06
Speaker 2: and sense of knowing. And it's all based on something else.
38:12
Speaker 2: So that I think is one piece of the room
38:14
Speaker 2: does many things, you know, Like I don't think you
38:16
Speaker 2: could just pinpoint one thing. There's just so many things
38:20
Speaker 2: that That's why when we have this conversation, it's like
38:22
Speaker 2: it's not as easy as that's a monster. It's so
38:25
Speaker 2: many things. There's so many things that it has to
38:28
Speaker 2: be so integrated into how we live and it is basically,
38:32
Speaker 2: you know, not basically, but I keep thinking about it
38:34
Speaker 2: as we are trying to understand our sense of selves
38:43
Speaker 2: and we have to rethink what our goals are, right,
38:47
Speaker 2: what are our goals? Which is a very difficult thing
38:50
Speaker 2: to do when mostly we're trying to do in this
38:52
Speaker 2: world is survive.
38:55
Speaker 1: That's nosh, man, It's like we've opened up a can
38:59
Speaker 1: of worms here. There's so many ways to go about this,
39:03
Speaker 1: and now I've got I've got to have you back
39:05
Speaker 1: again sooner than later. I mean, there's so many topics, integral, important,
39:12
Speaker 1: vital topics that you're bringing up here that I love
39:16
Speaker 1: to have as part of this podcast. Look, what's the
39:20
Speaker 1: best way for people to learn more about you and
39:22
Speaker 1: the work you're doing?
39:24
Speaker 2: And you can go to either a heel to end
39:26
Speaker 2: h E A L none Number two e n D
39:30
Speaker 2: dot org so hel to end dot org. Or you
39:33
Speaker 2: can check out my personal website, which is I Grivera
39:37
Speaker 2: dot com. Yeah, and through there you can contact. We
39:41
Speaker 2: got contact stuff on our YouTube channel heal to End,
39:44
Speaker 2: check out videos. Yeah, all right.
39:47
Speaker 1: We'll have all that link up here at the show
39:48
Speaker 1: notes page at the Trauma Diaps Podcast dot com. Nuts
39:51
Speaker 1: you love it, love having you on here. Appreciate your
39:55
Speaker 1: your you. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.
39:59
Speaker 2: Thank you.
40:00
Speaker 1: Alright, we'll be in touch, alright